Transcript: Show #92 "Deregulation of Ontario" | Apr 27, 1997

The opening sequence rolls.
In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.
Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
DEREGULATING ONTARIO.

A woman in her late thirties says
IF YOU'VE GOT PROLIFERATING
GOVERNMENT BODIES AND
THEY'RE ALL MAKING RULES
AND THE RULES CONFLICT AND
THEY'RE SPENDING MONEY HAND
OVER FIST, I MEAN NOBODY'S
GETTING GOOD
SERVICE OUT OF THAT.

A woman in a shocking red shirt says
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
IMPORTANCE OF THESE LAWS FOR
THE PROTECTION OF THE
PUBLIC AND THE PROTECTION
OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

A clip shows a huge tree falling in the woods.

Steve says BUSINESS SENSE OR
ENVIRONMENTAL NONSENSE.

(music plays)

Steve and five guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark grey suit over a matching shirt.

He says
UNDER THE NEO-CONSERVATIVE
REVOLUTION OF THE '80s,
IT WAS CALLED DEREGULATION.
UNDER THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION OF THE '90s
THEY'RE CALLING IT
CUTTING RED TAPE.
GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND WELCOME
TO ANOTHER EDITION OF
4th READING.
WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL
IT, IT'S HAPPENING AT
BREAKNECK SPEED IN ONTARIO.
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS
CHANGED, LABOUR LAWS
REVAMPED, GOVERNMENT BUDGETS
FOR REGULATING INDUSTRIES
CUT WAY BACK.
CRITICS WARN WE'LL PAY FOR
THIS WITH UNCLEAN WATER AND
UNSAFE WORKPLACES.
GOVERNMENT SAYS IT'S FREEING
UP BUSINESSES' HANDS TO
CREATE BADLY NEEDED JOBS.
LET'S LOOK AT THE CHANGES
HAPPENING ALL ACROSS
THIS PROVINCE.

A clip on screen shows a series of clips with Margaret Thatcher in public appearances.

Steve says
IF YOU THOUGHT
DEREGULATION WITH A
VENGEANCE DIED WITH REAGAN
AND THATCHER, THINK AGAIN.
IT'S BACK IN
ONTARIO IN 1997.
LAST WINTER THE
GOVERNMENT APPOINTED A RED
TAPE REVIEW COMMISSION.
IT RECOMMENDED SCRAPPING
MORE THAN 1,500 REGULATIONS.
AMONG SOME OF ITS
MOST CONTROVERSIAL
RECOMMENDATIONS WERE THOSE
TO LABOUR REGULATIONS.
THE COMMISSION RECOMMENDED
INCREASING THE MAXIMUM
NUMBER OF HOURS AN EMPLOYER
CAN REQUIRE SOMEONE TO WORK
FROM 48 TO 50 HOURS A WEEK.

New clips show people at their workstations in factories.

Steve continues
IT ALSO RECOMMENDS SCRAPPING
PAY EQUITY FOR COMPANIES
WITH FEWER THAN
100 EMPLOYEES.
AND IT WANTS SMALLER
COMPANIES EXEMPTED FROM
SEVERANCE PAY OBLIGATIONS.
THESE RECOMMENDATIONS COME
ON TOP OF CONTROVERSIAL
CHANGES TO LABOUR LAWS
ALLOWING REPLACEMENT WORKERS
DURING A STRIKE.
THE HEAD OF THE ONTARIO
FEDERATION OF LABOUR SEES
ALL THIS AS ANOTHER
STEP BACK FOR WORKERS.

A caption on screen reads "Gord Wilson. Ontario Federation of Labour." He’s in his fifties. He has short dark hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a bordeaux sweater over a blue polo shirt.

Gord says
OBVIOUSLY EVERY ONE OF THE
PROPOSALS THAT THEY MADE IN
THE AREA OF LABOUR RELATIONS
WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO
WORKING PEOPLE.
AND AGAIN, I EMPHASIZE THOSE
WORKING PEOPLE WHO ARE AT
THE LOW END OF
THE WAGE SCALE.

Steve continues
AT THE SAME TIME,
ANOTHER GROUP OF GOVERNMENT
APPOINTEES, THE TASK FORCE
ON AGENCIES, BOARDS AND
COMMISSIONS CALLED FOR
THE ELIMINATION OF 12 OF
ONTARIO'S 62 AGENCIES.
THE CANADIAN FEDERATION OF
INDEPENDENT BUSINESS SAYS
THESE RECOMMENDATIONS WILL
REDUCE COSTS FOR BUSINESS.

The caption changes to "Judith Andrew. Canadian Federation of Independent Business." She’s in her late thirties and has short wavy grey hair in a neat cut and wears a beige blazer over a black blouse and rounded glasses.

Judith says
IF YOU'VE GOT PROLIFERATING
GOVERNMENT BODIES AND
THEY'RE ALL MAKING RULES
AND THE RULES CONFLICT AND
THEY'RE SPENDING MONEY HAND
OVER FIST, I MEAN NOBODY'S
GETTING GOOD SERVICE OUT
OF THAT, INCLUDING ALL
OF THE TAXPAYERS.

Steve continues
VALUE FOR TAXPAYERS
IS THE REASON WHY THE
GOVERNMENT SAYS IT'S
INTRODUCED NINE BILLS TO
ELIMINATE OR STREAMLINE
REGULATIONS IN NINE
DIFFERENT MINISTRIES.
BUT ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS ARE
ALARMED AT WHAT THEY CALL
THE DISMANTLING OF ONTARIO'S
ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS
AND REGULATIONS.
LAST YEAR THE GOVERNMENT CUT
THE ENVIRONMENT MINISTRY'S
BUDGET BY ALMOST 40
PERCENT, ITS STAFF BY 750.
IT'S OPENED UP TRACTS OF
TEMAGAMI'S WILDERNESS TO
MINING AND LOGGING AND
WEAKENED REGULATIONS MAKING
IT EASIER FOR SOME
INDUSTRIES TO POLLUTE.
THE ENVIRONMENT MINISTER NOW
ALSO HAS THE POWER TO EXEMPT
NEW LANDFILLS AND
INCINERATORS FROM FULL
ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS.
THE CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL
LAW ASSOCIATION SAYS
DEREGULATION ONLY SERVES
THE SHORT-TERM INTERESTS
OF INDUSTRY.

The caption changes to "Michelle Swenarchuk. Canadian Environmental Law Association." She has short dark hair and wears a shocking red shirt and rounded glasses.

Michelle says
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
IMPORTANCE OF THESE LAWS FOR
THE PROTECTION OF THE
PUBLIC AND THE PROTECTION
OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

Steve continues
THOSE CONCERNS WERE
ECHOED EARLIER THIS WEEK BY
ONTARIO'S INDEPENDENT
ENVIRONMENTAL COMMISSIONER
IN HER ANNUAL REPORT.

The caption changes to "Eva Ligeti. Ontario’s Environmental Commissioner." She’s in her late forties. She has short dark hair in a Bob and wears a striped dark blazer over a red blouse.


Eva says
WE CANNOT AFFORD TO FOCUS ON
SHORT-TERM SAVINGS AT THE
EXPENSE OF LONG-TERM
ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH.

Mike Harris appears next. He talks to the press and says
SO IF WE THINK MONEY'S BEING
WASTED AND NOT ACTUALLY
DEALING WITH THE
ENVIRONMENT, WE CALL THAT
WASTE, AND WE TRY AND REDUCE
THAT WHEREVER WE CAN.

Steve continues
CABINET MINISTERS WILL
OVERSEE AN ANNUAL LINE BY
LINE REVIEW OF THEIR
REGULATIONS IN A SO-CALLED
SPRING CLEANING OF
GOVERNMENT RULES.
The clip ends and Steve appears back in the studio.

He says OKAY.
WITH US TO TALK ABOUT THE
CHANGES COMING DOWN IN
ONTARIO ARE JOHN BAIRD.
HE'S PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANT
TO THE CHAIRMAN OF
MANAGEMENT BOARD OF CABINET
AND THE PC MEMBER FOR NEPEAN.
AND DOMINIC
AGOSTINO IS HERE.
HE IS THE LIBERAL
ENVIRONMENT CRITIC AND THE
MEMBER FOR HAMILTON EAST.
WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.
GLAD THAT YOU COULD
BE HERE WITH US TODAY.
ALSO ON THE PROGRAM TODAY...
AND RUTH, I'M GIVING YOUR
NEW TITLE THIS WEEK.
RUTH GRIER.
NOT JUST FORMER CABINET
MINISTRY FOR BOB RAE,
BUT ENVIRONMENTALIST AT INNIS
COLLEGE, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
FABULOUS.
JOHN MYKYTYSHYN.
TORY POLLSTER IS HERE AS
WELL AND THERE'S RICHARD
MAHONEY FOR THE LAW FIRM
FRASIER AND BEATTY IN
OTTAWA, FORMER PRESIDENT
OF THE ONTARIO LIBERALS.
GANG, LET'S GET INTO THIS.
JOHN BAIRD, WHY DOES YOUR
GOVERNMENT FEEL IT NEEDS TO
TAKE THESE STEPS?

The caption changes to "John Baird. PC MPP, Nepean." He’s in his forties. He has short dark hair in a neat cut and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark grey suit, white shirt and pale beige tie.

John says I THINK IT'S ALL ABOUT
JOB CREATION OBVIOUSLY.
WE WANT TO DO EVERYTHING
WE CAN DO AS A PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT TO ENCOURAGE JOB
CREATION AND ECONOMIC GROWTH.
I THINK EVERYONE TALKS
ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE
OF JOB CREATION.
IT'S ALMOST UNANIMOUS
THAT WE'VE GOT TOO MUCH
REGULATION, TOO MUCH RED
TAPE, KILLING SMALL BUSINESS
AND PARTICULARLY SMALL
BUSINESS IS A PRIORITY FOR
OUR GOVERNMENT BECAUSE
THAT'S WHERE THE JOBS ARE
COMING FROM.
I THINK THE DIRECTION WE'RE
GOING IN IS OBVIOUSLY
SHOWING SOME
POSITIVE SIGNALS.
WE SAW 46,000 NEW JOBS WERE
CREATED LAST MONTH ALONE,
AND THAT'S GOOD NEWS.

Steve says
DOMINIC, WILL THIS
CREATE NEW JOBS?

The caption changes to "Dominic Agostino. Liberal MPP, Hamilton East." He’s in his late thirties. He has short dark hair in a neat cut and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, white shirt and contrasting patterned tie.

He says
WHAT THIS IS IS BASICALLY A
DISGUISE FOR A WISHLIST THAT
THE PRIVATE SECTOR'S HAD FOR
YEARS, AND NEVER FOUND THE
GOVERNMENT STUPID ENOUGH
TO GIVE IT TO THEM.
FRANKLY, THIS GOVERNMENT
HAS DEREGULATED EVERYTHING
UNDER THE SUN.
THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE IT
EASIER FOR CORPORATIONS
TO POLLUTE.
CHARGES ARE DOWN.
CONVICTIONS ARE DOWN.
FRANKLY, THEY'VE GIVEN A
GREEN LIGHT TO POLLUTERS.
THEY'VE GIVEN A GREEN LIGHT
TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO
BASICALLY RAM ANYTHING THEY
WANT THROUGH GOVERNMENT
AND IT IS A CORPORATE AGENDA
THAT DOES NOT BENEFIT
MOST ONTARIANS.

Steve says JOHN, WHY IS IT IN THE
PUBLIC INTEREST FOR, FOR
EXAMPLE, IN LAMBTON COUNTY,
THE CHEMICAL AND PETROLEUM
INDUSTRY TO TAKE OVER
THE ROLE OF CHECKING AIR
QUALITY, WHICH OBVIOUSLY
THE GOVERNMENT USED TO DO?

John says
I THINK WE WANT TO OBVIOUSLY
ENSURE THAT IT'S DONE AS
EFFECTIVELY AND BEST COST TO
THE TAXPAYER AS POSSIBLE.
I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN TOO
MUCH IS WE TRIED TO SEE AN
EXCESSIVE REGULATION THAT
JUST HASN'T MADE SENSE.
I MEAN THE EXAMPLE
YOU CITED IS ONE.
I CAN CITE YOU
ANOTHER EXAMPLE.
THERE'S CURRENTLY AN
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION
TODAY WHICH REQUIRES THAT
PESTICIDE CONTAINERS BE
BURIED IN THE GROUND.
THAT'S THE LAW IN ONTARIO.
YOU CAN'T REUSE A
PESTICIDE CONTAINER.
IT ACTUALLY ENCOURAGES BAD
ENVIRONMENTAL PRACTICES.
SO I THINK IF ANYTHING,
WE'RE NOT DEREGULATING,
WE'RE RE-REGULATING COMMON
SENSE REGULATION TO ENSURE
THAT WE GET THE BEST
POLICY RESULT AT THE END.

Steve says LET ME ASK
RUTH ABOUT THIS.
WE GOT A FORMER ENVIRONMENT
MINISTER RIGHT HERE.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister." She’s in her fifties. She has short white hair and wears a pale yellow blazer over a matching blouse.

Ruth says IF WE WERE RE-REGULATING
AND IN FACT ELIMINATING SOME
RED TAPE, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY
WOULD BE UPSET, BUT I THINK
THE DEREGULATION OF
EVERYTHING, NOT JUST THE
ENVIRONMENT, IS REALLY THE
CORE OF THE REVOLUTION, AND
A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T
REALIZE THAT IT'S HAPPENING
AND IT'S SO SHORT-SIGHTED.
I MEAN I JUST NOTICED
WALKING AROUND MY
NEIGHBOURHOOD THIS WEEK THAT
THE SIGNS THAT USED TO WARN
YOU WHEN LAWNS HAD BEEN
SPRAYED WITH POISONS HAVE
NOW BEEN REDUCED IN SIZE TO
SOMETHING TINY, ILLEGIBLE
AND INNOCUOUS.
IT'S THOSE KINDS OF STEPS
AWAY FROM ALLOWING THE
PUBLIC TO KNOW
WHAT'S HAPPENING.
THE MONITORING OF
AIR IN LAMBTON.

Steve says
THE NEW MINISTER, THOUGH,
NORM STERLING, SAYS HE WANTS
TO IMPROVE WHAT WORKS, GET
RID OF WHAT DOESN'T WORK AND
FOCUS ON OUR CORE BUSINESS,
PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT.
THAT SOUNDS
FINE, DOESN'T IT?

Ruth says
OF COURSE IT SOUNDS FINE,
BUT THE RECORD OF THE
REGULATIONS THAT ARE BEING
CHANGED IS A LESSENING OF
THE STANDARDS AND
ELIMINATION OF THE CAPACITY
TO MONITOR AND NO
ENFORCEMENT OF THOSE
STANDARDS THAT DO EXIST.
AND IF YOU WANT TO LET
INDUSTRY HAVE SOME GREATER
CONTROL OVER MONITORING OR
POLICE ITSELF, YOU HAVE TO
HAVE IN PLACE STRONG
STANDARDS AND A STRONG
BACKUP WATCHDOG THAT
WILL COME INTO PLAY.


Steve says JOHN, YOU'RE
THE TORY POLLSTER.
HAVE YOU GOT SOME NUMBERS
WHICH INDICATE WHETHER OR
NOT YOUR PARTY'S VULNERABLE
ON THIS ISSUE, BECAUSE
CLEARLY PEOPLE -- POLLS SHOW
PEOPLE STILL CARE ABOUT
THE ENVIRONMENT.
YOU GOT ANYTHING
TO INDICATE THAT?

The caption changes to "John Mykytyshyn. Ontario’s Conservative Pollster." He’s in his mid-thirties. He’s bald and has a beard. He wears a black suit, white shirt and contrasting grey tie.

Mykytyshyn says
WELL, I'D SAY THAT THEY ARE
CONTENT WITH THE ENVIRONMENT
AS IT STANDS AT THE MOMENT.
IT'S NOT A DRIVING
ISSUE FOR ANYONE.
I THINK IT'S CERTAINLY...
WHEN YOU ASK TOP OF MIND
ISSUES AND CONCERNS, IT'S
ALMOST SUBTERRANEAN.
NOT THAT I THINK THAT
ACCURATELY REFLECTS WHAT
PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT IT AS AN
ISSUE AREA AND IT REQUIRES
DEEPER STUDY, CERTAINLY
WHAT I ADVISE MY CLIENTS.
ONE OF THE THINGS, THOUGH, I
THINK ON A PERFORMANCE AREA
IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT
IS DOING FINE.
NOW WHETHER THAT'S FINE
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
INTERESTED, OR FINE BECAUSE
THEY THINK THEY'RE DOING A
GOOD JOB, I'M NOT SURE THAT
PUBLIC OPINION ON THE WHOLE
ISSUE AREA RIGHT NOW IS A
FAIR ESTIMATE OF WHAT IT
REALLY IS BECAUSE THERE'VE
BEEN SO MANY OTHER THINGS
ON THE AGENDA.
AND I THINK THAT IN ITSELF
SAYS THAT IT'S NOT -- NOT
THAT IT'S UNIMPORTANT,
BUT CERTAINLY IT'S NOT
CAPTIVATED THE DISCUSSION.

Ruth says CAN I JUST PICK UP ON
THE POLLING, THOUGH, BECAUSE
THE ENVIRONMENTAL MONITOR
POLLING OF JUST LAST MARCH
SHOWED VERY CLEARLY THAT IN
ONTARIO CONFIDENCE IN THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT TO
PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT WAS
DROPPING LIKE A STONE, AND
WHEN ASKED HOW BEST TO
PROTECT THE GOVERNMENT,
53 PERCENT SAID STRICTER
LEGISLATION AND RULES.
SO I THINK THAT YOU ARE GOING
IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

Steve says RICHARD.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor." He’s in his forties. He has short wavy grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, blue shirt and contrasting tie.

Richard says THE RESEARCH I'VE SEEN
DOES SHOW THAT THERE IS A LACK
OF CONFIDENCE IN THE ABILITY OF
THIS GOVERNMENT -- RESEARCH
OFTEN SAYS DO YOU BELIEVE
THIS GOVERNMENT IS BETTER
ABLE TO CREATE JOBS,
BETTER ABLE TO PROTECT
THE ENVIRONMENT.
ONE OF THE THINGS THEY SCORE
THE LOWEST ON IS THEIR
ABILITY TO PROTECT
THE ENVIRONMENT.
I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO
WHAT YOU BELIEVE THE ROLE OF
GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE.
AND I THINK THAT PROBABLY
AROUND THIS TABLE THERE'S
SOME PRETTY SIGNIFICANT
DIFFERENCES OF OPINION.

Steve says
SHOULD WE LOOK
INTO THAT?

Richard continues
AS TO WHAT THE ROLE OF
GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE.

Steve says WHY DON'T WE
LOOK INTO THAT?

Richard continues
AND I THINK THAT CLEARLY
WHAT THE TORIES ARE SAYING -
AND JOHN, YOU KNOW, MESSAGE
TRACK OFF THE TOP WITH HIS
VIEW ON THIS, AND THAT
IS THAT WE GOT TO GET
GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE WAY.
IF GOVERNMENT HAS A ROLE
IT'S NOT TO CREATE JOBS.
GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IS TO
REGULATE AND PROTECT THE PUBLIC.

Steve says LET ME FIND OUT.
JOHN?
THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION.
IS IT THE GOVERNMENT'S ROLE
TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT?

John says DEFINITELY.
I THINK WE'RE ONE OF...
AT THE MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY, WE
WANT TO COMMUNICATE, SET AND
ENFORCE STANDARDS THAT'LL
PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT BUT
I THINK -- I THINK I WOULD
AGREE WITH RICHARD.
IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S
ROLE TO CREATE JOBS.
THIS GOVERNMENT
CAN'T CREATE JOBS.
WHAT MIKE HARRIS WANTS TO
DO IS CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT
THAT WILL SEE JOBS CREATED
AND THAT'S GOT TO BE A
PRIORITY BECAUSE FOR TOO
LONG WE'VE SEEN TOO MANY
REGULATIONS KILLING
JOBS IN THE PROVINCE.

Richard says
BUT I MEAN IT'S ALL THESE
SOUND BYTES OF PEOPLE
CUTTING UP, YOU KNOW, YOU
SAW THE CLIP OFF THE TOP.
RED TAPE.
I MEAN THAT MUST BE
EMBARRASSING SOMETIMES TO BE
A POLITICIAN AND HAVE TO GO
THROUGH THOSE KINDS OF STUNTS.
BUT -- AND JOHN SAYS
IT CREATES JOBS.
IT DOESN'T JOBS IN AND OF
ITSELF CHANGING REGULATIONS.
THIS IS ABOUT
PROVIDING SOME OPTICS.
NORM STERLING MADE TELL US,
DOMINIC, THAT, YOU KNOW,
THIS IS -- WE'RE GOING TO
PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT BUT
YOU GOT TO TEST -- THE
TEST IS THE ACTION.

Dominic says THE MOVES THAT HAVE
HAPPENED IN THE MINISTRY
OF THE ENVIRONMENT IN MANY AREAS
ARE DRIVEN BY ONE THING, AND
THAT IS THAT OBSESSION THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS TO CONTINUE
TO GIVE ITS TAX CUTS
TO RICH FRIENDS.
SO THEY'RE GOING TO FIND
MONEY ANYWHERE POSSIBLE.
THE REASON THAT THEY'RE
GOING TO SELF-MONITORING AND
SELF-INSPECTIONS IS BECAUSE
THEY DON'T HAVE STAFF TO DO IT.
I MEAN IT'S SIMPLE.
THEY GOT RID OF 750 JOBS,
140 INSPECTING STAFF ACROSS
THE PROVINCE.
SO THEY'RE GOING TO SAY, WELL,
WE'LL LET YOU DO IT YOURSELF.
WELL, WE SAW THOSE DAYS.
WE SAW THOSE DAYS WHERE THE
LAKES AND RIVERS IN THIS
PROVINCE, AND HAMILTON
HARBOUR AND OTHER PLACES
RIGHT ACROSS THIS PROVINCE
AND THIS COUNTRY WERE BEING
POLLUTED DAILY WITH RAW
SEWAGE AND WASTE GOING INTO
THEM BECAUSE WE ALLOWED
INDUSTRY TO SELF-REGULATE.

Steve says OKAY, BUT IT
RAISES THIS QUESTION.
ARE INDUSTRIES MORE
RESPONSIBLE TODAY, AND
THEREFORE BETTER ABLE
TO DO THE JOB THAT THE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT
IS NOW ASKING THEM TO DO?

Dominic says
THEY'RE MORE RESPONSIBLE
BECAUSE OVER THE YEARS,
GOVERNMENTS OF ALL POLITICAL
STRIPES HAVE HEIGHTENED THE
STANDARD, HAVE PUT IN
GREATER ENFORCEMENT, HAVE
REQUESTED GREATER TECHNOLOGY
BE USED TO CUT DOWN ON THE
AFFLUENCE AND SO ON, BUT
YOU NEED TO CONTINUE TO
MONITOR THAT.
YOU NEED A SYSTEM WHERE THE
INSPECTION STAFF IS THERE.
I MEAN IS IT A COINCIDENCE
ALL OF A SUDDEN THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT, THAT
PROSECUTIONS HAVE DROPPED
DRAMATICALLY AND CHARGES
HAVE DROPPED DRAMATICALLY?
ARE WE SAYING THAT SINCE THE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT TOOK
OFFICE ALL THE POLLUTERS
ACROSS THE PROVINCE HAVE GOT
THEIR ACT TOGETHER AND
ARE NO LONGER POLLUTING?

Steve says NO, IN FACT CHARGES
ARE HALF AS MUCH AS
THEY WERE IN YOUR LAST YEAR.

Dominic continues
YEAH, AND THEY'RE DROPPING
DRAMATICALLY BECAUSE THEY
DON'T HAVE THE STAFF TO GO
OUT THERE AND ENFORCE,
TO LAY THE CHARGE
AND PROSECUTE THEM.

Ruth says BUT LET'S LOOK A
BIT AT THE JOB QUESTION,
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT JOHN SAYS
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION'S
ALL ABOUT.
IN FACT, IN SOME INDUSTRIES,
AND TAKE PULP AND PAPER,
WHICH IS A HUGE CONTRIBUTION
TO CANADA'S BALANCE OF
PAYMENTS -- IN ORDER TO MEET
SOME OF THE REGULATIONS THAT
OUR GOVERNMENT PUT IN,
THERE HAVE BEEN ENORMOUS
INVESTMENTS IN NEW
TECHNOLOGY THAT IS NOW BEING
SOLD WORLDWIDE AND THAT IT
IS IN THE INTERESTS OF THE
COMPANIES TO CLEAN UP
BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO MEET
THE REGULATIONS OF THE
EUROPEAN COMMUNITY WHERE
THE STANDARDS ARE HIGHER.

Steve says THIS IS
EMISSION, FOR EXAMPLE.

Ruth continues
SO THAT BY LOWERING OUR
STANDARDS, NOT ONLY IN THE
ENVIRONMENT, BUT IN HEALTH
AND SAFETY AND IN ALL THE
OTHER AREAS HERE, WE'RE IN
FACT SETTING SOME OF OUR
INDUSTRIES BACK AND BIG
INDUSTRIES -- YOU ASKED WERE
INDUSTRIES BETTER AT CONTROLLING
ENVIRONMENTAL EMISSIONS.
THE BIG ONES ARE.
AND THEY LIKE TO HAVE A
LEVEL PLAYING FIELD SO THAT
WHAT THE BAD APPLES DON'T
GET AWAY WITH DOING THINGS
THAT PERHAPS A BIGGER
COMPANY WON'T DO.

John says
THERE'S OTHER AREAS, STEVE.
IF YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE,
FILM PROJECTION OPERATORS.
RIGHT, YOU KNOW, THEY USED
TO BE, A FEW MONTHS AGO IN
ONTARIO, YOU REQUIRED
800 HOURS OF APPRENTICESHIP
TO OPERATE A FILM MOTION
PICTURE PROJECTOR IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
THAT'S MORE HOURS OF
APPRENTICESHIP THAN YOU NEED
TO FLY A CF18
FIGHTER AIRCRAFT.
THAT'S ABSOLUTELY
RIDICULOUS.
AND THERE IS A WHOLE HOST OF
AREAS, WHETHER IT'S LABOUR,
WHETHER IT'S CONSUMER
COMMERCIAL RELATIONS, WHERE
WE'VE GOT TO REVISIT THESE
CRAZY REGULATIONS BECAUSE
THEY'RE KILLING
JOB CREATION.

Richard says
LET'S ACTUALLY GIVE THE
GOVERNMENT SOME CREDIT FOR
ELIMINATING -- JOHN'S BROUGHT
UP TWO EXAMPLES SO FAR HERE
TODAY OF NEEDLESS REGULATORY
IMPEDIMENTS TO PEOPLE DOING
THEIR JOB.
LET'S JUST SAY THAT
WAS A GOOD THING.

Steve says THE HYPNOSIS
ACT WAS A GOOD ONE.

Richard continues THAT'S
RIGHT, ABSOLUTELY.
GOT RID OF THAT ONE TOO.
BUT WHAT IS ALSO FAIR TO SAY
IS THAT IN THE MIDST OF THAT
ANNOUNCEMENT AND THAT GREAT
PUBLIC OPTIC THAT YOU HAD,
YOU BURIED SOME -- YOU PUT
SOME OTHER CHANGES WHICH I
DON'T THINK PEOPLE WOULD BE
QUITE AS READY TO EMBRACE.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE EXAMPLE
THAT STEVE BROUGHT UP,
WHICH IS DO WE REALLY WANT,
YOU KNOW, PETROCHEMICAL
COMPANIES POLICING
THEMSELVES?
NO, THAT'S THE JOB OF
GOVERNMENT TO POLICE THAT.

John says THERE'S STILL A ROLE FOR
THE GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE THE
STANDARDS, TO COMMUNICATE
THOSE STANDARDS.
YOU LOOK AT THE
MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
THEY HADN'T REDUCED THE
NUMBER OF HEALTH AND
SAFETY INSPECTORS.
WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IN LABOUR
YOU'VE JUST SEEN -- YOU'VE
SEEN MORE VISITS.
YOU'VE SEEN MORE INSPECTION
ORDERS ISSUED THAN YOU DID
UNDER THE PREVIOUS
NDP GOVERNMENT.
SO, YOU KNOW, IN MANY
AREAS WE'RE RE-REGULATING.
WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT THOSE
REGULATIONS ARE GOING TO
ACHIEVE THE PUBLIC POLICY
GOALS WE WANT TO EFFECTIVELY
ENFORCE THE
WORKABLE STANDARDS.

Steve says
WE STARTED IN THE BACKGROUND
PIECE SHOWING REAGAN AND
THATCHER AND THE
DEREGULATION THAT STARTED IN
THE EARLY 1980s, AND JOHN,
LET ME GO TO YOU ON THIS.
WHAT DO YOU SUPPOSE THE
LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE
EFFORTS TO DEREGULATE IN
THE '80s WERE THAT YOU...
BAD CONSEQUENCES OF WHICH
OBVIOUSLY YOU WOULD HOPE
TO AVOID IN THE '90s.

Mykytyshyn says
I THINK IT'S A QUESTION OF
WHAT SHOULD BE LEARNED IS IT
SHOULDN'T BE DOGMATIC.
PART OF WHAT THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION IS SUPPOSED
TO BE ALL ABOUT AND I BELIEVE
IS IS THAT THE FACT THAT
IT'S TAKING A LOOK AT THE
REGULATIONS THAT EXIST AND
MAYBE RE-REGULATING ISN'T
THE RIGHT PHRASE, BUT
CERTAINLY RATIONALIZATION
FOR GOVERNMENT, FOR
SERVICES, FOR REGULATIONS.
WHAT LAWS ARE ON THE BOOKS
AND DO THEY NEED TO BE?
CERTAINLY A LOT OF THEM HAVE
BEEN THERE SO LONG THAT THEY
HAVE NO RHYME OR REASON FOR
WHERE THEY ARE NOW, SO THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE LEFT
ENFORCING THE LAWS SHOULD BE
ENFORCING THE LAWS THAT ARE
NEEDED OR RELEVANT TODAY AND
AT REASONABLE STANDARDS, AND
CERTAINLY IN ALMOST EVERY
AREA STANDARDS ARE
CHANGING ALMOST DAILY.

Dominic says THERE ARE MANY.
I MEAN THERE'S NO QUESTION.
YOU CAN GO THROUGH EVERY
LEGISLATURE ANYWHERE IN THE
WORLD REALLY, AND YOU CAN
FIND REGULATIONS THAT ARE
OUT OF DATE, THAT SHOULD BE
REVIEWED AND SCRAPPED,
AND YOU CAN POINT THOSE
OUT AND HOLD THOSE OUT.
BUT THE REALITY IS THERE
ARE MANY OTHERS THAT BELONG
THERE, MANY OTHERS THAT WERE
PUT THERE, AND YES, AT TIMES
THEY'RE INCONVENIENT
TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
AT TIMES THEY'RE INCONVENIENT
TO THE BAY STREET BOYS.
BUT THE REALITY AS WELL
IS THAT THEY'RE THERE TO
PROTECT THE PUBLIC AND
GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT LESSEN
REGULATIONS OR DEREGULATE OR
WHATEVER WORD YOU WANT TO
USE, WHEN IT COMES TO PUBLIC
HEALTH, PUBLIC SAFETY, THE
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION.
YOU TAKE ABOUT PCP STORAGE.
I MEAN PART OF THOSE
RE-REGULATION RED TAPE HAS
CHANGED DRAMATICALLY.
THE MOVEMENT, THE STORAGE OF
PCPs, THE FACT THAT IF SOME
OF THESE REGULATIONS GO
THROUGH, TRUCKS WITH
CHEMICALS AND WASTE CAN BE
BARRELLING DOWN STREETS TOTALLY
UNCONTROLLED BY REGULATION,
TOTALLY WITHOUT PERMITS,
TOTALLY WITHOUT THE PRIOR
APPROVALS THAT WERE NECESSARY.
THOSE ARE THE TYPE OF
CHANGES THAT ARE DANGEROUS
TO THE PUBLIC.
THEY'RE NOT SIMPLY CONVENIENT
TO ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH.

Steve says
RUTH, LET ME HIT THE BIG
QUESTION ON THE HEAD HERE,
WHICH IS AFTER FIVE YEARS OF
TORY RULE AND THE CUTTING
RED TAPE, DEREGULATION,
WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT,
ARE YOU SURE THAT WE'RE
GOING TO HAVE DIRTIER WATER,
LESS CLEAN AIR,
UNSAFER WORKPLACES?
ARE YOU SURE THAT
WILL BE THE RESULT?

Ruth says I CERTAINLY BELIEVE
THAT THAT WILL BE THE RESULT.
I THINK IT'S THE INEVITABLE
RESULT BECAUSE I MEAN JOHN
SAYS THEY AREN'T BEING
IDEOLOGICAL ABOUT THIS.
I WOULD ARGUE THAT THEY ARE,
AND THAT THE CHOICES THEY'RE
MAKING AS TO WHAT
REGULATIONS THEY REVOKE AND
THOSE WHERE THEY MAKE NEW
REGULATIONS IN SOME CASES,
CLEARLY SHOW THAT THE
ENVIRONMENT IS NOT A
PRIORITY, AND BY CUTTING
BACK ON THE ABILITY TO
MONITOR AND TO PROSECUTE
WE WILL IN FACT SEE A
DEGRADATION IN THE
ENVIRONMENT AND WE WILL
PAY OVER TIME.
I MEAN THERE MAY BE SHORT
TERM GAINS, BUT I WAS
INTERESTED TODAY IN READING
ABOUT THE FLOODING IN NORTH
DAKOTA AND THE RED RIVER.
THAT THE FACT THAT WETLANDS
IN NORTH DAKOTA HAVE BEEN
ALLOWED TO BE DRAINED AND
DEVELOPED, HAS CONTRIBUTED
TO THE FLOODING
OF THE RIVER.
THIS GOVERNMENT REVOKED THE
PLANNING ACT PORTION THAT
PROTECTED WETLANDS
IN ONTARIO.
WE MAY WELL PAY FOR SOME OF
THESE THINGS IN THE FUTURE.

Steve says IS YOUR GOVERNMENT
VULNERABLE ON THAT
IN THE LONG RUN?

Mykytyshyn says
I CERTAINLY THINK ENVIRONMENT,
AS RICHARD HAS SAID, IS ONE OF
THE WEAKER SUBJECT AREAS
FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
IT'S CERTAINLY ONE WHERE I
THINK, BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT
IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO SPEND
MORE TIME CERTAINLY IN THE
SECOND HALF OF THE MANDATE
IN ADDRESSING SO THAT IT IS
SEEN -- WHEN IT COMES AROUND
FOR THE NEXT ELECTION, AS
HAVING DONE A GOOD JOB.

Dominic says THEY HAVE A
BETTER SPINMASTER NOW
THAN THEY HAD BEFORE.
ELLIOTT WAS NOT THAT GOOD AT
SPINNING THE GOVERNMENT LINE.
STERLING IS EXPERIENCED AND
KNOWS HOW TO SPIN MUCH BETTER.

Richard says I'M ACTUALLY LOOKING
FORWARD TO THE SECOND PART...

Ruth says THE MARKETING
PART OF THE MANDATE.

Richard continues
NO, BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY...
THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS
ON THE SHOW AND, JOHN, YOU
HAVEN'T BEEN AT EVERY SINGLE
TIME WE TALKED ABOUT THIS.
MY EXPECTATIONS ARE RAISED
FOR THE SECOND HALF,
PUT IT THAT WAY.
AND WE WAIT WITH
BATED BREATH.

John says I THINK IT SPEAKS
VOLUMES TO WHAT MIKE HARRIS
THE PRIORITY HERE TOWARDS THE
ENVIRONMENT BY PUTTING THE
DEAN OF OUR CAUCUS NOT
ONLY ON THE PRIORITIES AND
PLANNING BOARD, BUT MAKING HIM
MINISTER OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
I THINK NORM STERLING'S GOT
A LONG RECORD OF SERVICES
AND ENVIRONMENTALISTS BACK
TO THE DAVIS GOVERNMENT AND
I THINK IT SPEAKS VOLUMES
THAT HE'S PUTTING THAT SORT
OF EXPERIENCE IN CHARGE
OF THIS IMPORTANT AREA.

Dominic says IT SPEAKS VOLUMES TO
THE FACT THAT NORM STERLING
WAS A GREAT PROTECTOR OF
THE NIAGARA ESCARPMENT
COMMISSION AND HARRIS AND
HIS CABINET TOOK THAT AWAY
FROM HIM AND GAVE
IT TO CHRIS HODGSON.
THEY MIGHT AS WELL HAVE
PUT UP A FOR SALE SIGN.
BUT I'M GOING TO TALK
JUST ONE SECOND OF THE
CREDIBILITY OF HARRIS
ON THE ENVIRONMENT.
ON JUNE THE 5th, 1995, MIKE
HARRIS SAID, I DON'T THINK
YOU'LL FIND A CENT CUT
OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
WE'RE ABLE TO FIND 6
BILLION DOLLARS IN CUTS
WITHOUT CUTTING
THE ENVIRONMENT.
THAT WAS NOT THE OPPOSITION.
THAT WAS MIKE HARRIS.
JUNE THE 5th HE WAS QUOTED
AS SAYING THAT IN 1995.
HE HAS CUT 111 MILLION DOLLARS
OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

Mykytyshyn says
OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT OR
OUT OF THE BUREAUCRATS...

Dominic continues
THE MINISTRY OF
THE ENVIRONMENT.
THE MINISTRY IS
NOT AN ENVIRONMENT.
I MEAN THE MINISTRY
ENVIRONMENT.
I MEAN HARRIS CAN PLAY
WORD GAMES ON THIS.
IT'S THE MINISTRY
OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
HE SAID THAT HE WAS NOT
GOING TO CUT THAT BUDGET
OF THAT MINISTRY.
HE HAS CUT THAT BUDGET
BY 111 MILLION DOLLARS.

John says IF YOU WANT TO QUOTE
QUOTES, PAGE 11, THE RED BOOK.
DUELLING QUOTES

Steve says HERE WE GO.

John continues GETTING OF RED TAPE
WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR SMALL
BUSINESS TO GROW
AND CREATE JOBS.
DURING THE ELECTION
CAMPAIGN, THE LIBERALS SAID
RED TAPE KILLS JOBS.
IT HURTS SMALL BUSINESS.

Ruth says
WE'RE NOT TALKING
ABOUT RED TAPE.

John continues
THE REALITY IS YOU'RE GOING
TO SEE IS MIKE HARRIS IS
PROBABLY NOT ONLY KEEPING
MORE OF HIS CAMPAIGN
PROMISES THAN ANYONE, HE'S
PROBABLY GOING TO KEEP MORE
PROMISES THAT WERE CONTAINED
IN THE RED BOOKS THAN THE
LIBERALS WOULD HAVE MADE
IF THEY WERE FORMING
THE GOVERNMENT.

Dominic says
NOBODY'S TALKING ABOUT
CUTTING RED TAPE FOR THE
SAKE OF IT.
I MEAN THERE ARE REGULATIONS,
WE ALL AGREED AROUND THIS
TABLE, WHICH DON'T MAKE
SENSE, THAT SHOULD BE CUT.
BUT WHEN YOU CUT REGULATIONS
THAT PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH
AND PUBLIC SAFETY, THEN
YOU'VE CROSSED THE LINE AND
YOU BASICALLY HAVE GONE
INTO BED WITH THE CORPORATE
SECTOR AND WITH THEIR WISH
LIST RATHER THAN PROTECTING
THE ENVIRONMENT FIRST
THEN THE PUBLIC.

Richard says IT IS ALL A
QUESTION OF HOW YOU DO IT.
YOUR POINT BEFORE WAS A VERY
GOOD ONE, WHICH IS THAT
THESE ARE THINGS
WHICH HAVE TO BE DONE.
BUT THE ONLY THING THAT WE
CAN SORT OF RIGHTLY SORT OF
FIND FAULT WITH YOU ON, IS
THE CHOICES THAT YOU MADE IN
DOING THAT AND WE'VE ALREADY
AGREED ON THIS SHOW, THERE
ARE PROBABLY SOME GOOD
THINGS THAT WERE TAKEN.
BUT IN THE MIDST OF TAKING
THOSE CHOICES, YOU'VE
REMOVED SOME OF THE VERY
SAFEGUARDS WHICH MAKE
ONTARIO A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE
AND THAT'S WHERE WE FIND FAULT.

Ruth says AND SOME OF THOSE
SAFEGUARDS ARE DEMOCRACY
AND PEOPLE BEING INVOLVED
IN MAKING THOSE DECISIONS.
ALL OF THE ADVISORY
COMMITTEES THE MINISTRY OF
THE ENVIRONMENT HAD ON
ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS,
ON ENVIRONMENTAL
ASSESSMENT, ALL GONE.
SO IT'S BEING DONE BY
BUSINESS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS
WITHOUT PEOPLE HAVING AN
OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE
OR TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.

Steve says THAT HAS TO BE THE
LAST WORD ON THIS PART
OF OUR DISCUSSION.
I WANT TO THANK JOHN BAIRD
FROM NEPEAN AND DOMINIC
AGOSTINO FROM HAMILTON
FOR JOINING US.
THANKS SO MUCH, GUYS.
AND WHEN WE COME BACK,
HITTING THE HUSTINGS.
DON'T GO AWAY.

A new clip on screen shows a man in his fifties addressing the members of the Senate in a Question’s Period session. It’s Preston Manning.

He says
THIS LIBERAL GOVERNMENT IS
SO UTTERLY DEVOID OF NEW
IDEAS THAT IT HAS TO GO TO
THE POLLS AFTER ONLY THREE
AND A HALF YEARS.

The Speaker says
VERY HONOURABLE
PRIME MINISTER.

Honourable Jean Chrétien says
AFTER YEARS WITH THE LEADER
OF THE THIRD PARTY WANTING
US TO GO TO THE PEOPLE
NOW HE'S CHICKENED OUT.

Preston says
AND HE CAN'T ESCAPE A
PATHETIC NATIONAL UNITY
STRATEGY THAT CAME WITHIN
50,000 VOTES OF DESTROYING
THE FEDERATION.

Chrétien says
BECAUSE I WANT TO GO TO THE
PEOPLE OF CANADA BECAUSE I
WILL TELL THEM THAT WHEN WE
WERE FIGHTING FOR UNITY IN
THE REFERENDUM, THE LEADER
OF THE THIRD PARTY SAID
NOTHING, TRIED TO MAKE OUR
LIFE DIFFICULT RATHER THAN
HELP US.

The clip ends and Steve appears back in the studio.

He says
JEAN CHRETIEN,
PRESTON MANNING.
EVERYBODY TERRIBLY EXCITED
TO GET TO THE POLLS APPARENTLY.
THIS ELECTION WILL BE CALLED
THREE AND A HALF, THREE AND
THREE QUARTERS YEARS INTO
THE LIBERAL'S MANDATE.
YOU'RE ELECTED FOR FIVE.
IS THIS AN EARLY
ELECTION CALL?
JOHN?

Mykytyshyn says
WELL I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO AND
WHAT THEY'VE BEEN
TELLING MY INTERVIEWERS,
AND THAT'S ABSOLUTELY.
THEY'RE GOING WELL
BEFORE THEY SHOULD BE.
THREE OUT OF FOUR PEOPLE
THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING TO
THINK THAT THEY SHOULD BE
WAITING UNTIL NEXT YEAR.

Richard says
YEAH, BUT I THINK THAT
IF YOU ASKED PEOPLE THAT
QUESTION IN ANY POLL,
UNLESS THEY WERE HORRIBLY
DISSATISFIED WITH THE
GOVERNMENT, THEY'D PROBABLY
TELL YOU THERE'S NO NEED
FOR AN ELECTION RIGHT NOW.
PUBLIC AREN'T PARTICULARLY
FOND OF ELECTION CAMPAIGNS,
OR POLITICIANS
FOR THAT MATTER.
I THINK THE TEST OF THIS
GOVERNMENT WILL BE THE
FOLLOWING: IT'S THE SAME IN
JUNE AS IT IS IN OCTOBER.
OCTOBER BEING SORT OF FOUR
YEARS ESSENTIALLY ON THE
MARK FROM WHEN
THEY WERE ELECTED.
YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TEST
WILL BE THEIR RECORD, AND
THE SECOND TEST WILL BE DO
THEY PUT FORWARD A POSITIVE
AGENDA FOR THE FUTURE?
THAT TEST IS NO DIFFERENT IN
JUNE THAN IT IS IN OCTOBER.
WE'RE ALL WITHIN THE AMBIT
OF FOUR YEARS AND IT'LL BE...
THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO
ANSWER THAT QUESTION AND
RISE TO THE OCCASION AS MUCH
ON JUNE THE 2nd AS THEY
WOULD ON OCTOBER 25th.

Ruth says I DON'T THINK
IT'LL BE A BIG ISSUE.
I THINK IT'D BE HARD
TO MAKE IT AN ISSUE.
SOME PEOPLE WILL TRY, BUT
I THINK THEY HAVE CLEVERLY
CREATED A SENSE THAT IT IS
TIME FOR AN ELECTION, AND I
THINK THERE'S ENOUGH
UNHAPPINESS WITH -- I THINK
THERE'S UNHAPPINESS WITH THE
LIBERALS, BUT I ALSO THINK
THERE'S UNHAPPINESS
WITH THIS PARLIAMENT.
PEOPLE HAVEN'T LIKED
WHAT REFORM HAS DONE.
THEY HAVEN'T LIKED THE FACT
THAT THE BLOC HAS BEEN
OFFICIAL OPPOSITION AND
THERE'S A BIT OF A SENSE,
WELL, LET'S TRY AGAIN AND
SEE IF WE CAN DO BETTER THAN
WE DID IN 1993.

Steve says
BUT THE INDICATIONS ARE
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY
DIFFERENT AT ALL FROM 1993.

Ruth says OH, I THINK IT IS.

Steve continues I DON'T THINK SO.
WHERE DO YOU SEE IT'S GOING TO
BE DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT?

Ruth says
I THINK THERE'LL BE A
STRONGER OPPOSITION AND
I THINK THAT WHILE THE
LIBERALS' STRENGTH SHOWS...

Steve says STRONGER OPPOSITION?
TONS OF OPPOSITION
RIGHT NOW.
THERE'S TOO MUCH OPPOSITION.

Ruth says NO, BUT THERE WILL
BE STRONGER MORE
TRADITIONAL OPPOSITION.
THE PEOPLE WILL GO BACK TO
MORE TRADITIONAL VOTING
PATTERNS AND THE PEOPLE WANT
A MORE COHESIVE OPPOSITION
AND SO WHERE THEY SEE
A CHANCE TO ELECT A
CONSERVATIVE, ELECT -- DARE
I SAY IT -- A NEW DEMOCRAT...
THEY WILL DO THAT.

Steve says DARE, DARE.

Ruth continues
AND THAT THE REFORM WILL
CERTAINLY FALL, OTHER THAN
IN THE WEST.

Steve says
NOW POLLS AT THIS STAGE
ARE NOT TERRIBLY USEFUL IN
DETERMINING WHAT THE NEXT
PARLIAMENT IS GOING TO LOOK
LIKE BECAUSE THEY CAN CHANGE
ON A DIME, AS EVERYBODY
AROUND THIS TABLE KNOWS.
BUT IS IT REASONABLE TO
ASSUME -- IT PROBABLY IS
REASONABLE TO ASSUME THE
TORIES ARE GOING TO WIN MORE
THAN TWO SEATS NEXT TIME,
AND THE NDP MORE THAN...
WHAT HAVE THEY GOT?
SEVEN OR EIGHT OR
NINE OR SOMETHING?

Ruth says NINE.
FOUR TIMES THE TORIES.

Mykytyshyn says
THERE'S A QUESTION OF WHAT
YOU SURVEY FOR, AT WHAT
POINT IN TIME IN HISTORY,
AND ONE OF THE THINGS
I TAKE ISSUE WITH RICHARD ON
THE VALIDITY OF THE QUESTION
I MENTIONED.
BUT MORE INTERESTING IS NOT
USUALLY THE FIRST LEVEL, BUT
THE SECOND AND THIRD LEVEL
OF ANALYSIS YOU GET INTO.
THE FOLLOW-UP QUESTION I
ASKED TO THAT ONE WAS WHAT
DO YOU THINK THE MOTIVATIONS
ARE FOR THE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT?
WHY ARE THEY GOING
TO THE POLLS?
AND ON THAT ONE IT WAS
REALLY INTERESTING.
WHAT I'VE BEEN FINDING IS
THAT TWO-THIRDS OF PEOPLE
VERY CLEARLY UNDERSTAND WHY
AND IN THEIR MINDS THAT IS
BECAUSE THEY CAN WIN.
THE POLLS ARE SHOWING THAT
THE LIBERALS CAN WIN SO
THAT'S WHAT THIS
ELECTION IS ABOUT.

Steve says THAT'S
ALWAYS WHY YOU GO.

Richard says WOULD IT BE ANY
DIFFERENT FOR ANY OTHER
GOVERNMENT IF YOU ASKED
THAT ABOUT MIKE HARRIS WHEN
HE'S NEXT TO GO TO THE POLLS?
IF YOU ASKED THE PUBLIC WHY
HE'S GOING TO THE POLLS,
WOULD IT BE BECAUSE
HE WANTS TO LOSE?
I DOUBT IT.

Mykytyshyn says WELL, NO, I'D SUGGEST
THAT MIKE HARRIS, EVEN THOUGH
HE WON'T HAVE RUN OUT OF IDEAS
TO IMPLEMENT, HE'LL HAVE TO
GO ANYWAY BECAUSE HE'LL HAVE
RUN OUT OF TIME, WHEREAS
FEDERALLY I THINK THAT
MIGHT BE THE CASE.

Richards says
WELL, WE'LL DO OUR
BEST TO HELP HIM.

Ruth says
RUN OUT OF IDEAS TO
IMPLEMENT AND THAT'S IT.
THERE ARE THOSE OF US WHO
THINK MIKE HARRIS MAY GO
EARLY BECAUSE THE
IMPACT OF TAX CHANGES ON
MUNICIPALITIES, HOSPITALS
CLOSING, WILL ALL BEGIN TO
BECOME REALLY APPARENT IN
99 AND THE YEAR 2000, AND I
THINK THEN WE'LL HAVE A FUN
ELECTION CAMPAIGN AROUND
GOING EARLY.

Steve says
LET ME PURSUE THIS EARLY
CALL BUSINESS AGAIN, BECAUSE
JUST AS MANY LIBERALS, AND
DAVID PETERSON PARTICULARLY
THOUGHT IN 1990, THAT THE
EARLY ELECTION CALL WOULD
STICK IN PEOPLE'S CRAW FOR A
FEW DAYS AT THE BEGINNING OF
THE CAMPAIGN AND THEN GO
AWAY BECAUSE, AFTER ALL, WE'RE
NOT GOING TO DO SOMETHING
DUMB LIKE ELECT THE NDP.
RIGHT?
AND THAT HAPPENED.
IS THAT IN THE AIR
OUT THERE THIS TIME?

Ruth says AND IT WASN'T DUMB.

Steve says YOU KNOW WHAT I'M
SAYING THOUGH.

Mykytyshyn says
I THINK IT'S CERTAINLY IN
THE AIR, AND BUT WHETHER OR
NOT IT SOLIDIFIES OR NOT
IS THE OPEN QUESTION.
CERTAINLY I THINK IT'S
EXACTLY WHERE -- THIS IS NOT
THE 1995 OR THE '93 ELECTION.
I THINK IT IS AS CLOSE TO
THE 1990 ELECTION IN THE
SENSE OF DYNAMICS WHERE
PETERSON WAS ON THE FACE OF IT,
WELL LIKED, WELL
RESPECTED, BUT WHEN YOU
ASKED ON ANY SPECIFIC ISSUE
AREA, PEOPLE TURNED AGAINST HIM.
THEY WERE TWO TO ONE AGAINST
HIS JOB PERFORMANCE.

Steve says THAT'S THE CASE
FOR THESE GUYS TOO.

Mykytyshyn continues
AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE CASE
RIGHT NOW, AND THE QUESTION
IS WILL THAT TRANSFER?
WILL THE CAMPAIGN, SINCE IT
MAY BE WELL ON, IF THAT'S
THE CASE, WILL THAT TRANSFER
OVER THE COURSE BETWEEN NOW
AND ELECTION DAY?
WILL PEOPLE MAKE THE LINKAGE
OR WILL THEY BE ABLE TO
SKATE THROUGH?

Richard says TWO
THINGS IN RESPONSE.
LET'S JUST BE CLEAR THAT THE
REASON WHY WE LOST IN THE
1990 PROVINCIAL ELECTION
WAS NOT JUST BECAUSE DAVID
CALLED IT EARLY.
DAVID CALLED IT EARLY AND I
THINK FRANKLY AS A PARTY,
WE DIDN'T GIVE PEOPLE A REASON
TO RE-ELECT US, AND THAT IS
A CHALLENGE FOR ANY
GOVERNMENT, ANY PARTY,
ANY TIME.
I THINK WHERE I WILL TAKE
ISSUE WITH JOHN IN HIS OWN
INDUSTRY IS WHAT YOU WILL
SEE AMONGST PEOPLE IS A FAIRLY
HIGH DEGREE OF SATISFACTION
WITH THIS GOVERNMENT.
THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF
SATISFACTION IS IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
IN THE COUNTRY.
AND IT IS -- THAT LEVEL OF
SATISFACTION'S RELATED TO
THEIR PERFORMANCE ON THE
ECONOMY AND ON ESSENTIALLY
GETTING THE ECONOMIC HEALTH
OF THE COUNTRY TURNED BACK
IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
DO I THINK IT'S GOING
TO BE A CAKEWALK?
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
IT'S GOING TO BE...

Steve says 98 LIBERAL SEATS
ON ONTARIO AGAIN?

Richard says I DON'T THINK SO.

Steve says WHICH ONES YOU
GOING TO LOSE?

Richard says
WELL, I DON'T -- IT WOULD BE
UNFAIR TO DO THAT TO SOME
FRIENDS WHO ARE GOING TO BE
IN FOR TOUGH FIGHTS, BUT I
THINK THAT RUTH BROUGHT UP
A POINT EARLIER, OBVIOUSLY
WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO BE
BACK TO A MORE HISTORICALLY
ANOMALOUS -- YOU KNOW,
A HISTORICALLY SORT OF
NATURAL SITUATION.
I THINK THE TORIES WILL
WIN SOME SEATS IN ONTARIO.
I THINK THE NDP WILL WIN
SOME SEATS IN ONTARIO.

Steve says
AND THAT HAS TO BE THE
LAST WORD ON THIS ONE.
I THANK THE THREE OF YOU.
JOHN MYKYTYSHYN AND RUTH
GRIER AND RICHARD MAHONEY.
GOOD LUCK SENATORS, RIGHT?

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.
GO SENATORS GO.

Steve says GOOD LUCK SENATORS.
THANKS SO MUCH.
OKAY.
WE ALWAYS ENJOY YOUR INPUT
ON OUR PROGRAM, SO WRITE TO
US IF YOU WOULD AT:

A slate reads "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1."

Steve says
OR IN CYBERSPACE, AT
THIS INTERNET ADDRESS:

A new slate reads "Internet address, 4th_Reading@tvo.org."

Steve continues
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #92 "Deregulation of Ontario"