Transcript: Shirley Douglas | Aug 16, 1998

(Rhythmic string and wind music plays)

In animation, a word in pink slides by against a gray background as hands paint strokes using paintbrushes, play a piano, and touch as in a ballet performance.

The title of the show reads “Dialogue.”

The title of the episode pops up against an image of two production assistants fixing Richard Ouzounian’s guest’s makeup and microphone: “Shirley Douglas. Actor.”

Shirley and Richard sit in a carpeted living room.

Then, Richard appears facing the screen. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted blond hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a black suit, and a striped blue shirt.

He says I'M RICHARD OUZOUNIAN,
WELCOME TO
DIALOGUE.
LAST WINTER, MY DAUGHTER
CALLED ME INTO THE TELEVISION
ROOM AND SAID, DAD, YOU'VE
GOT TO SEE THIS WOMAN.
SHE'S AN AMAZING ACTRESS.
AND SHE WAS RIGHT.
THE SHOW SHE WAS WATCHING
WAS
WIND AT MY BACK.
BUT I'D KNOWN THE ACTRESS
WAS AMAZING FOR 20 YEARS.
THAT'S WHY THIS
DIALOGUE
IS WITH SHIRLEY DOUGLAS.

Shirley is in her sixties, with wavy auburn hair. She’s wearing a loose burgundy cardigan over a black blouse.

Richard continues SHIRLEY,
WIND AT MY BACK,
EVERYONE NOW SEEMS TO HAVE
DISCOVERED YOU.
SUDDENLY YOU'RE A STAR
OVERNIGHT AFTER, HOW MANY
YEARS IN SHOW BUSINESS?

Shirley says WELL, 40 ODD.
BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS
WITH TELEVISION.
SO IT'S EXCITING.
IT'S A NEW VENTURE.

Richard says YOU'VE DONE SOME FILMS, BUT
YOU'VE NEVER DONE A SERIES
BEFORE THIS.

Shirley says NEVER DONE A SERIES, NO.

Richard says WHAT WAS IT LIKE JUMPING
INTO THAT DISCIPLINE?

Shirley says WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY --
IT'S A TOUGH THING TO MOVE
INTO BECAUSE YOU ARE TRYING
OUT A NEW CHARACTER,
AND YOU'RE DOING IT FOR
12 OR 14 HOURS A DAY.
BUT I FOUND IT VERY,
VERY EASY TO SLIP INTO.
I HAD A LOT OF HELP, AND IT
WAS A CHARACTER I LOVED.
SO I REALLY HAD A GOOD TIME.

Richard says YOU SAY YOU LOVED THE
CHARACTER, BUT BY ALL
ACCOUNTS, YOU KNOW, FROM
EVERYONE WE TALK TO,
MAY IS CERTAINLY NOT
THE MOST LOVABLE WOMAN.

Shirley says NO.

Richard says SHE'S THIS STERN MATRIARCH,
WHO DRIVES THE SERIES,
GRANTED, BUT YOU STILL
SAY YOU LOVE HER.

Shirley says OH, I LOVE HER.
FROM THE FIRST SCRIPT,
I REALLY LIKED HER.
AND I UNDERSTOOD HER.

Richard says HAD YOU RUN INTO WOMEN LIKE
THAT WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP?

Shirley says YES, YES.
AND I HAD JUST FINISHED
DOING
THE STONE ANGEL.
SO I'D ALREADY HAD QUITE A
LONG EXPERIENCE WITH HAGAR,
WHO IS NOT LOVABLE.

Richard says NO.

Shirley says IN FACT, LESS SO I
THINK, THAN MAY BAILEY.

Richard says IF YOU ARE DEALING WITH
A SUPPOSEDLY UNLOVABLE
CHARACTER, IT BECOMES YOUR
JOB TO FIND SOMETHING
YOU HAVE TO LOVE
IN THEM, CORRECT?

Shirley says YES.
AND I LOVE LOTS OF THINGS
ABOUT HER BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND
WHY SHE'S LIKE SHE IS.
YOU DON'T BECOME LIKE
THAT WITHOUT REASONS.
AND THE REASONS ARE, FOR
ME... MAKE ME VERY FOND
OF HER AND DEFEND HER.
I WOULD NEVER LET THEM DO
THINGS TO HER IN A STORY
THAT WOULD DIMINISH HER.

Richard says IT'S INTERESTING YOU TALK
LIKE THAT BECAUSE NOW YOU ARE
CREATING, IT'S LIKE A
CHARACTER IN A NOVEL, RIGHT?
BECAUSE IT'S THERE EVERY WEEK.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says AND IT GOES ON.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says DO YOU HAVE A SAY IN SHAPING
HOW SHE IS TO INTERACT?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Shirley Douglas. Actor."

Shirley says NOT REALLY.
NOT AS FAR AS THE SCRIPTS GO.
BUT THERE ARE WAYS
OF DOING THINGS.
SO THERE'S A WAY YOU CAN SAY
A LINE, YOU CAN THROW THINGS
AWAY, YOU CAN DISCUSS LINES
THAT YOU SAY SHE JUST CAN'T
SAY THIS BECAUSE
THIS WOULD BE WRONG.
AND I DON'T MEAN
SHE HAS TO BE NICE.
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE HER
INTO A NICE WOMAN, AS LONG
AS IT'S LEGITIMATE AND REAL.
AS LONG AS SHE... IF SHE
DECIDES TO GO OFF AND DECIDES
SHE IS GOING TO TAKE THE
CHILDREN AWAY AGAIN, AS LONG
AS THOSE REASONS ARE REAL,
AND I CAN JUSTIFY THEM.

Richard says IT MUST HAVE BEEN
INTERESTING, I DON'T KNOW IF
YOU FELT MUCH OF THIS BECAUSE
WIND AT MY BACK
CAME RIGHT
AFTER
ROAD TO AVONLEA, ONE
OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SERIES
IN CANADIAN HISTORY.

Shirley says RIGHT.

Richard says WAS THERE KIND OF A PRESSURE
HANGING OVER THAT WE HAVE TO
MAKE LIGHTNING STRIKE TWICE?

Shirley says NO.
I THINK YOU CAN'T DO THAT
BECAUSE IT'S SO HARD JUST
GETTING THE SIX MONTHS' WORK
DONE, THAT YOU CAN'T, ANY MORE
THAN WHEN YOU'RE IN A PLAY,
YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE
NOT COMPETING OR WORRYING
ABOUT THAT KIND OF THING.
SO I JUST NEVER HAD ANY
TROUBLE WITH THAT AT ALL.
I JUST WAS GLAD TO
GET EACH DAY'S DONE.
YOU'RE REALLY GOING
A DAY AT A TIME.

Richard says REALLY, AS YOU SAID, A
REMARKABLE YEAR FOR YOU,
WITH THIS SERIES AND
WONDERFUL PERFORMANCE IN
THE GLASS MENAGERIE,
WITH YOUR SON, KIEFER.

Shirley says THANK YOU.

Richard says BUT LOOKING BACK, YOU KNOW,
IT'S VERY FUNNY, I KNOW A LOT
ABOUT YOUR HISTORY, WE'LL TALK
ABOUT IT IN THIS INTERVIEW,
BUT WHAT I NEVER FOUND OUT,
AND I HOPE YOU'LL ELUCIDATE
FOR ME IS WHEN YOU
STARTED ON THE STAGE.
THAT KIND OF GETS
FUZZED OVER A LOT.

Shirley says I STARTED ON THE STAGE, I WAS
18 WHEN I WENT TO ENGLAND
TO THE ROYAL ACADEMY
OF DRAMATIC ART.
AND I STARTED ON THE STAGE
TWO YEARS AFTER, IN ENGLAND.

Richard says WAS THAT THE ONLY THING
ONE COULD DO AT THAT TIME,
WAS GO TO ENGLAND?
THERE WAS NO NATIONAL
THEATRE SCHOOL.

Shirley says THERE WAS NO NATIONAL
THEATRE SCHOOL.
MICHEL SAINT-DENIS ACTUALLY WAS
INSTRUMENTAL IN SENDING ME
TO ENGLAND.
HE SAW ME IN A PLAY AND ASKED
ME TO COME TO THE OLD VIC
AS A STUDENT.
AND THEN HE LEFT THE OLD VIC,
AND HE WROTE ME AND SAID I'VE
PHONED SIR KENNETH BARNES AND
SUGGESTED YOU GO OVER TO THE
ROYAL ACADEMY INSTEAD,
BECAUSE HE'D HAD A FIGHT
WITH THE VIC AND LEFT.
AND HE LATER CAME TO CANADA
AND STARTED THE NATIONAL
THEATRE SCHOOL.
SO IN 1952, WHEN I LEFT, THERE
WAS THE GRAHAM GREENE RADIO
SCHOOL, WAS THE ONLY THING,
REALLY, YOU COULD GO TO.

Richard says AND THAT WAS IT.

Shirley says AND THAT WAS IT.
AND I WANTED TO GO
TO A THEATRE SCHOOL,
NOT A RADIO SCHOOL.

Richard says WHAT DID YOU FIND LIKE COMING
FROM SMALL TOWN CANADA, OR
PRAIRIE CANADA, OVER TO
ENGLAND, AND CRACKING INTO
THAT FIELD?
WAS THERE ANY CONDESCENSION,
OUR PROVINCIAL COUSIN?

Shirley says NO, I NEVER FELT THAT FROM
STUDENTS AND FROM PEOPLE,
BUT I WAS NEVER ONE OF THOSE
PEOPLE WHO ADAPTED WELL
TO PLAYING ENGLISH
ROLES, I DIDN'T FEEL.
AND I STILL FEEL THAT.
WHEN YOU HAVE A SEA OF REALLY
FINE ENGLISH ACTORS, I DIDN'T
FEEL THAT WAS MY HOME AS
MUCH AS AN AMERICAN THEATRE
WOULD BE.

Richard says SO WHEN YOU FINISHED,
WHAT WAS IT LIKE?

Shirley says I STAYED AND DID
WONDERFUL
TOWN,
BUT I PLAYED AN
AMERICAN ROLE.
SO I WAS ALWAYS PLAYING
AMERICAN ROLES.
THEN I LEFT THE
THEATRE FOR A WHILE.
I'VE LEFT IT TWO
OR THREE TIMES.

Richard says HAVE THEY ALWAYS BEEN BECAUSE
OF PERSONAL REASONS, OR HAVE
YOU BECOME DISENCHANTED WITH
THE MEDIUM ITSELF NOW AND THEN?

Shirley says WELL, SOMETIMES IT'S BEEN
FOR PERSONAL REASONS, BUT
SOMETIMES, ALSO, I'VE BEEN
MORE INTERESTED IN LIVING A
LIFE THAN WORKING A LIFE.
AND I THINK YOU HAVE
TO DO ONE OR THE OTHER.
IT'S HAVE HARD TO DO EIGHT
SHOWS A WEEK AND WORK THE WAY
WE DO, AND HAVE MUCH
OF A PERSONAL LIFE.
AT LEAST IT WAS FOR ME.
I SEE A LOT OF ACTORS
WHO ARE ABLE TO DO IT.
SO WHEN I BECAME VERY
INTERESTED IN EITHER ROMANCE,
OR WHEREVER LIFE TAKES YOU,
I USUALLY QUIT WORKING, AND
LIVED IN ITALY FOR FIVE YEARS.
I'VE TAKEN REAL
HOLIDAYS FROM WORK.
AND SOMETIMES, I REALLY FELT I
HAD NOTHING MORE TO BRING TO
THE WORK.
THAT I WASN'T OLD ENOUGH TO
REALLY UNDERSTAND A ROLE, AND
AFTER YOU'VE LIVED FOR A FEW
YEARS, YOU FIND THAT YOU'VE
LEARNED, NOW I UNDERSTAND
HOW TO PLAY THAT ROLE.
SO THAT HAPPENED TO ME A LOT,
UNTIL I GOT INTO MY LATE 30S.

Richard says SO A CAREER HAS NEVER REALLY
BEEN THE THING THAT DROVE YOU?

Shirley says NO, NO.
NO, I'VE BEEN, IN CALIFORNIA,
A GREAT FRIEND OF MINE,
DONALD FREED, HAD A
THEATRE COMPANY THERE.
AND HE CLOSED IT UNTIL THE
VIETNAMESE WAR WAS OVER.
AND ONCE IT OPENED AGAIN, THEN
HE WANTED ME TO COME AND WORK
FOR HIM.
AND I LOVED THEIR CONCEPT OF
THE THEATRE, AND I LOVED WHAT
THEY WERE TRYING TO DO.

Richard says WHAT WAS IT LIKE?

Shirley says WELL, THEY WERE VERY,
VERY CLASSICAL ACTORS,
AND THEY DID A GREAT
PRODUCTION OF
HAMLET.
THEY DID A GREAT
PRODUCTION OF MANY THINGS.
SO I WAS VERY EXCITED ABOUT
GOING BACK TO WORK WITH THEM.
AND HE WANTED ME TO COME
AND DO LEAR WITH THEM.
SO ONCE YOU FIND THE PEOPLE
THAT YOU ARE AT HOME WITH,
THEN I'M ALWAYS HAPPY TO WORK.

Richard says YOU'VE BEEN DRAWN TO
COMPANIES, AT A TIME.
YOU WORKED FOR THE NATIONAL
ARTS' CENTRE COMPANY, AND
YOU'VE BEEN AT STRATFORD.
DO YOU FIND THAT KIND OF
FAMILIAL ATMOSPHERE WORKS
BETTER FOR YOU THAN THE OLD
ONE NIGHT STAND APPROACH?

Shirley says I LIKE COMPANIES BECAUSE I
THINK YOU GET A CHANCE TO DO
WORK THAT YOU CAN'T
DO THE OTHER WAY.
YOU HAVE A LONGER
REHEARSAL PERIOD.
WE HAVE TO HAVE
REHEARSAL PERIOD.
WITHOUT THAT, IT'S SO -- YOU
CAN ONLY GO SO FAR IN A ROLE.
SO I THINK WHEN YOU START
WITH A COMPANY, YOU KNOW THE
PEOPLE SO WELL, AND WHEN YOU
COME INTO REHEARSAL, YOU'VE
WORKED WITH THOSE PEOPLE, SO
YOU ARE ALREADY THERE BEFORE
YOU EVEN BEGIN.
AND I THINK THAT'S AN
ENORMOUS ADVANTAGE.

Richard says THERE'S ALSO MORE OF A
FEELING THAT WHAT YOU ARE
DOING IS PART OF A
CONTINUUM, RIGHT?
IT'S NOT JUST I'M THE PLAY
FOR FEBRUARY IN THIS
THEATRE'S TIME SLOT.

Shirley says RIGHT, RIGHT.
I LIKE TO DO THAT, TOO, BUT
I THINK I'VE LEARNED MORE.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S
IMPORTANT TO ME IS
LEARNING SOMETHING.
I'VE LEARNED MORE FROM BEING
IN A COMPANY BECAUSE A
DIRECTOR WILL KNOW HOW TO
START WITH YOU ONCE THEY'VE
ALREADY WORKED WITH
YOU BEFORE, YOU KNOW?

Richard says IT WAS INTERESTING,
WHEN YOU SET OUT TO DO
THE GLASS MENAGERIE, YOU
TURNED TO NEIL MONROE,
WHO DIRECTED YOU IN
WHO'S
AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOOLF?
NOW, THERE'S A FAMOUS STORY
ABOUT THAT PRODUCTION THAT I
WANT TO AGAIN ASK THE QUESTION
I'VE NEVER HEARD THE ANSWER TO.
KIEFER OFTEN TALKS ABOUT THE
FACT THAT WHEN HE SAW YOU PLAY
MARTHA, THAT WAS THE
PRODUCTION THAT MADE HIM
WANT TO BE AN ACTOR.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says WHAT I'VE NEVER FOUND
OUT IS DID YOU KNOW THAT?
AND HOW SOON DID
YOU KNOW THAT?

Shirley says WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW
THAT UNTIL THAT NIGHT.
NO, IT WAS A WHILE BEFORE
HE SAID IT THAT WAY.
BUT THAT NIGHT, I FOUND
IT STRANGE BECAUSE
HE DIDN'T COME BACKSTAGE.
AND SOMEBODY CAME IN AND SAID,
HE'S JUST SITTING IN THE
THEATRE, AND HE WON'T MOVE.
AND HE WAS JUST... SOMETHING
HIT HIM FROM THAT PLAY.
IT WASN'T, I DON'T THINK IT
WAS LIKELY JUST ME, AT ALL.
WHICH MAYBE HE
HASN'T CONSIDERED.
I THINK JUST THE WHOLE
EXPERIENCE OF THAT PLAY
JUST LEVELLED HIM.
AND HE JUST STAYED IN THE
THEATRE FOR ABOUT 20 MINUTES.
HE'S ALWAYS BEEN VERY
AFFECTED BY THE THEATRE.
WHEN I DID
THE STONE ANGEL,
HE CAME UP FROM LOS ANGELES
TO OTTAWA TO SEE IT.
AND HE CAME INTO THE DRESSING
ROOM, AND I WAS JUST TAKING
MY WIG OFF, AND HE
JUST BURST INTO TEARS.
THIS WOULD BE
TWO YEARS AGO.
SO HE'S ALWAYS VERY
AFFECTED BY THE THEATRE
AND HAS ALWAYS LOVED IT.

Richard says THERE'S SOMETHING INTERESTING
I WAS PRIVILEGED TO SEE
THAT PERFORMANCE OF VIRGINIA
WOOLF, AND I REMEMBER THINKING
SHE PLAYS MARTHA THE WAY
MARTHA MUST FEEL ABOUT MARTHA,
NOT THE WAY THE OTHER
CHARACTERS FEEL ABOUT MARTHA.
BECAUSE SO OFTEN YOU GET THIS
HARIDAN UP THERE, YOU KNOW.
EVERYONE SAYS, MARTHA,
YOU'RE LOUD, YOU'RE VULGAR,
AND YOU BRAY AND, IN FACT,
MARTHA, IN RETURN, BRAYING,
IT SAYS, SAYS, I DON'T BRAY.
I FELT FOR YOU.
I DIDN'T FEEL YOU WERE
PITCHING FOR FALSE SYMPATHY.
YOU WERE TOUGH, YOU WERE HARD,
BUT THE SAME THING HAPPENED
WHEN YOU PLAYED AMANDA.
YOU ARE PLAYING YOUR VIEW OF
THE CHARACTER, YOUR INTERNAL
LIFE, RATHER THAN THE OTHERS.
DO YOU FIND THIS IS HARD WHEN
YOU PLAY THESE FAMOUS ROLES
THAT EVERYBODY IN THE PLAY
TALKS ABOUT, AND EVERYBODY HAS
AN IDEA ABOUT?
LIKE, HOW DO YOU SET OUT TO
DO A FRESH AMANDA WINGFIELD,
OR A FRESH MARTHA?

Shirley says I DON'T KNOW.
YOU KNOW, YOU READ THE
SCRIPT, AND THEN YOU START.
I DON'T REALLY -- YOU KNOW,
AND YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND,
YOU GO IN ONE DIRECTION, A
DIRECTOR WILL PULL YOU IN
ANOTHER, THEN YOU GO BACK.
IT'S JUST THAT COMPLICATED
THING OF ACTING.
YOU KNOW, PUTTING
A ROLE TOGETHER.

Richard says SOMEBODY SAID WHAT WAS
INTERESTING IS YOU DON'T LIKE
A LOT OF BAGGAGE
AT REHEARSALS.
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DRAG IN
THEIR PERSONAL EMOTIONAL
CONCERNS, AND YOU LIKE
TO DO A LOT OF HOMEWORK.
I MEAN, SUPPOSEDLY YOU DO BIOS
FOR ALL YOUR CHARACTERS THAT
YOU WON'T LET ANYBODY SEE.
YOU WRITE UP YOUR INNER LIFE.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says AND I REMEMBER ONCE --

Shirley says AND THE BETTER THE
PLAY, OFTEN THE LESS
LARGE THE BIOGRAPHY.

Richard says REALLY?

Shirley says I THINK WHERE THE LARGE
BIOGRAPHIES COME IS IN A PLAY
THAT ISN'T AS WELL WRITTEN.
YOU'RE MAKING UP A
LIFE FOR YOURSELF.
WHEREAS IN A VERY GOOD PLAY,
IT'S USUALLY ALL THERE.

Richard says SOME OF THE GREAT
PERFORMANCES YOU'VE GIVEN HAVE
BEEN IN WILLIAMS'
CAT ON A
HOT TIN ROOF, NIGHT OF THE
IGUANA, GLASS MENAGERIE,
IN ALBEE, AS WELL.
IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THE
AMERICAN PLAYWRIGHTS OF THAT
PERIOD IN PARTICULAR THAT
YOU HAVE AN AFFINITY FOR?

Shirley says I THINK I'VE COME OUT OF THAT
PERIOD THE SAME AS MOST OF
THE PLAYWRIGHTS I REALLY LOVE
IN THAT PERIOD, THAT IS MY
ERA OF BEING AWARE
OF BEING YOUNG.
AND I THINK WHEN YOU ARE
YOUNG, YOU ARE MORE AWARE OF
THE TOUGHNESS OF THAT PERIOD.

Shirley says SOMEBODY ALSO ONCE SAID THAT
THE IDEAS AND THE THINGS YOU
ARE EXPOSED TO DURING A
CERTAIN PERIOD OF YOUR LIFE,
SOME PEOPLE IT'S THEIR TEENS,
SOME THEIR 20s, THEIR 30s,
THAT'S KIND OF WHAT FORMS
THEIR TASTE AND THEIR STYLE.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says SO THAT PERIOD
MIGHT BE YOURS.

Shirley says YES, I BELIEVE SO.

Richard says DO YOU RECALL WHAT WAS
SWIRLING AROUND YOU AT THAT
TIME THAT MADE IT STICK?

Shirley says A WONDERFUL DIRECTOR FROM
THE SEATTLE PLAYHOUSE,
BURTON JAMES, WAS A MAN WHO
HAD A GREAT INFLUENCE ON ME
WHEN I WAS ABOUT 16 AT THE
BANFF SCHOOL OF FINE ARTS.
AND I WOULD HAVE GONE TO HIS
SCHOOL HAD HE NOT, HE HAD BEEN
BLACKLISTED, AND HAD
BEEN SENT TO PRISON
AND DIED IN PRISON.
SO I DIDN'T GO TO HIS SCHOOL.
AND IN MANY WAYS, I WOULD
HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF AT
THE SEATTLE PLAYHOUSE BECAUSE I
WOULD HAVE GONE INTO AMERICAN
THEATRE, AND I THINK THAT'S
REALLY WHERE I SHOULD HAVE
BEEN, AS OPPOSED
TO ENGLISH THEATRE.
I HAD MUCH MORE IN COMMON
WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING
POLITICALLY, IN AMERICA, AND
I UNDERSTOOD IT MUCH BETTER
THAN I UNDERSTOOD ENGLISH
AND EUROPEAN POLITICS.

Richard says IT'S INTERESTING, YOU
MENTIONED ONE GENTLEMAN WHO
HAD BEEN BLACKLISTED, DONALD
FREED I KNOW WAS VERY
POLITICALLY ACTIVE.
IN FACT, I THINK HE WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR A PLAY
ON THE ROSENBERGS.

Shirley says YES, HE WAS.

Richard says POLITICS AND SHIRLEY DOUGLAS
COME TOGETHER NATURALLY.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says WE HAVE VISIONS OF YOU
WITH THE BLACK PANTHERS
AND YOUR ACTIVISM.
IT WAS A VERY STRONG THING FOR
A WHILE, PUBLICLY AT LEAST.
IT SEEMS QUIETER NOW.
IS IT BECAUSE THE
CAUSES ARE QUIETER?

Shirley says I THINK IT'S
BECAUSE I'M BUSIER.
YOU HAVE TO PICK -- YOU CAN
ONLY -- AND I THINK THAT'S WHY
DON FREED CLOSED HIS THEATRE.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE RUNNING
LARGE PRODUCTIONS, YOU ALSO
CAN'T BE ORGANIZING
THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT.
SO THAT WAS WHY HE
CHOSE TO CLOSE IT.
BUT I FIND IT'S VERY HARD
BECAUSE YOU ARE AWAY, AND YOU
ARE OUT OF TOUCH, REALLY, WITH
YOUR OWN COMMUNITY, WHICH I
DON'T AGREE WITH, BUT I AM.
AND SO I'M NOT... IF SOMEONE
WERE TO CALL ME THIS
AFTERNOON, COULD I COME TO
A MEETING TONIGHT, I CAN'T.
SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO
BE PART OF A COMMUNITY.
AND YOU HAVE TO SEE
WHAT YOU CAN DO
WHEN YOU'RE NOT WORKING.

Richard says DO YOU FIND ACTORS SHOULD OR
SHOULD NOT USE THEIR FAME
FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES?
YOU KNOW, IF JANE FONDA
COMES OUT AGAINST THE WAR IN
VIETNAM, IT MEANS MORE THAN
SUZY Q COMING OUT AGAINST
THE WAR IN VIETNAM.
IS THAT A GOOD OR A BAD THING?

Shirley says WELL, THERE CAN BE A GREAT
BACKLASH OUT OF IT, TOO.
BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO DO
WHAT YOU FEEL AS A HUMAN
BEING AND AS A
MEMBER OF SOCIETY.
I WOULD CERTAINLY ENCOURAGE
ANYBODY WHO HAS A STRONG
OPINION ABOUT ANYTHING
TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON IT.

Richard says DURING THE PERIOD YOU WERE IN
THE STATES, WHAT PUSHED YOUR
BUTTON THE MOST?
WHAT ABOUT THE WAR IN
VIETNAM AND THAT WHOLE ISSUE
GOT TO YOU THE MOST?

Shirley says WHY THE WAR IN VIETNAM?

Richard says IN PARTICULAR.

Shirley says WELL, I JUST THINK SEEING
AMERICA CONTINUE TO GO ABROAD
TO TEND TO OTHER PEOPLE'S
AFFAIRS, YOU KNOW, WAS
BASICALLY THE BEGINNING OF IT.
AND KNOWING THAT IT WOULD
ESCALATE INTO THE WAR
THAT IT DID.
WHEN IT STARTED, WE KNEW
IT WASN'T GOING TO END.

Richard says WHAT ABOUT TODAY?
WHAT KIND OF FORM DOES YOUR
POLITICAL ACTIVISM TAKE TODAY,
WHEN YOU HAVE TIME FOR IT?

Shirley says WELL, IT'S MUCH MORE ONTARIO,
AND MUCH MORE CANADA.
AND WHEN I SEE THE CUTS THAT
ARE HAPPENING ALL OVER THE
PLACE IN ONTARIO.
I THINK IT'S DEVASTATING
WHAT'S HAPPENING TO, NOT ONLY
THE CULTURE, BUT JUST
THE DAILY LIFE OF PEOPLE
IN THIS PROVINCE.

Richard says I'M THINKING, YOU WERE IN
CALIFORNIA WHEN REAGAN DID
HIS EQUIVALENT OF THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.
WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

Shirley says WELL, IT WAS VERY SIMILAR.
AND THE RESULTS
WERE DEVASTATING.
THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IN
AMERICA, IN LOS ANGELES, IN
CALIFORNIA, WAS SUPERB, UNTIL
REAGAN GOT A HOLD OF IT.
MANY, MANY THINGS WERE.
AND THEY WERE JUST CUT SO
CLEANLY, AND SO QUIETLY, THAT
IT WASN'T UNTIL THEY WERE
GONE THAT EVERYONE REALIZED
WHAT HAD HAPPENED.
AND PEOPLE WEREN'T LISTENING.
THEY WERE ALSO HAPPENING
AT THE SAME TIME
AS THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT.
AND THERE WAS SO MUCH
HAPPENING, THERE WAS SO MUCH
SOCIAL UPHEAVAL, AND I DON'T
THINK IT WAS UNTIL MUCH LATER
THAT PEOPLE REALIZED
WHAT HAD DISAPPEARED.
AND NOW THE EDUCATIONAL
SYSTEM IS JUST APPALLING
IN CALIFORNIA.
AND THEY ARE TOO FAR
BEHIND NOW TO CATCH UP.

Richard says I'M THINKING, AS YOU'RE
SAYING THIS, THERE'S A JONI
MITCHELL LINE ABOUT, DON'T IT
ALWAYS SEEM TO GO, YOU DON'T
KNOW WHAT YOU'VE
GOT 'TIL IT'S GONE.
THEY PAVED PARADISE,
PUT IN A PARKING LOT.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says ARE THEY PAVING PARADISE
AND PUTTING IN A PARKING LOT
IN ONTARIO RIGHT NOW?

Shirley says OH, I THINK SO.
AND I THINK THE HEALTH SYSTEM,
WHICH FOR ME IS ALWAYS
A VERY PERSONAL ITEM
BECAUSE OF MY FATHER.

Richard says RIGHT.

Shirley says BUT NOT ONLY THE
HEALTH SYSTEM.
BUT THERE ARE
MANY, MANY THINGS.
THE HEALTH SYSTEM IS BECOMING
A TWO-TIERED SYSTEM, AND
THERE'S NO POINT KIDDING
OURSELVES ABOUT IT.
AND PEOPLE HAVE TO DECIDE
IF THEY CARE ENOUGH ABOUT IT.
AND PEOPLE HAVE HAD IT SO
LONG NOW, THERE ARE SO MANY
GENERATIONS HAVE BEEN BORN
WITH THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
AND THEY WON'T REALLY
UNDERSTAND WHAT AN INSURANCE
COMPANY IS UNTIL
THEY HAVE ONE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Shirley says THAT CANCELS THEIR POLICY
BECAUSE THEY'RE SICK.
AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS.
I'VE LIVED TOO LONG IN
CALIFORNIA, SEEING PEOPLE
DEALING WITH INSURANCE
POLICIES THAT ARE CANCELLED
ONCE THEY BECOME ILL.
SO I THINK IT'S SOMETHING
PEOPLE HAVE TO DECIDE.
AND EVERYBODY HAS TO BE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LIVES.
AND THIS IS WHAT ALWAYS
ENCOURAGES ME WHEN I SEE
PEOPLE TAKING A VERY
STRONG STAND ON THE CITY.

Richard says RIGHT.
THE WHOLE AMALGAMATION ISSUE.

Shirley says THAT PEOPLE DID SAY,
NO, WE DON'T WANT THAT.
AND I THINK IT'S FOOLISH FOR
ANY GOVERNMENT TO NOT LISTEN
WHEN THAT MANY PEOPLE SAY
THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.

Richard says WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING
TO THE ARTS IN THE COUNTRY,
AS WELL, AS A RESULT
OF ALL OF THIS?

Shirley says OH, I THINK IT'S GRIM.
I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY GRIM.
WE ARE A YOUNG COUNTRY,
SO WE DON'T HAVE A DEEPLY
ENTRENCHED THEATRE THE WAY
WE HAVE IN ENGLAND, WHERE
NOTHING COULD EVER HAPPEN
TO IT, NO MATTER WHAT,
THE THEATRE IN ENGLAND
WILL SURVIVE.
AND OURS WILL, TOO.
I MEAN, THEATRE
WILL ALWAYS SURVIVE.
IT HASN'T BEEN GOING ON FOR
THOUSANDS OF YEARS FOR US TO
ELIMINATE IT, BUT IT ISN'T A
STRONG ENOUGH CORNER OF OUR
CULTURE YET THAT IT
CAN BE SWEPT AWAY.

Richard says YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING IN
THEATRES WHERE THE PERSON WHO
HIRED YOU ONE YEAR SUDDENLY
GOT DEPOSED IN A BOARD PUSH
OVER THE SUMMER, AND WAS GONE,
AND PHILOSOPHIES CHANGE.
DO YOU FIND, I'VE HEARD IT
SAID THE THEATRE IS MOVING
MORE TO THE RIGHT, IN TERMS
OF SAFETY, NOT IN TERMS OF
POLITICS, BUT DO
YOU SEE THAT AS SOMEONE
WHO TRAVELS EVERYWHERE?

Shirley says YES.
AND WHEN I CAME HERE, THERE
WERE LARGER PLAYS BEING DONE.
NOW, IT'S THREE HANDERS,
FOUR HANDERS, TWO HANDERS,
YOU KNOW, THE
SMALLER THE CAST.
BUT, HOPEFULLY, PEOPLE WILL
BECOME INVENTIVE OUT OF IT.
I SEE MORE CO-PRODUCTIONS
ARE BEING DONE.
NOW THIS
CAN
BE GOOD, THIS
DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN
IT'S GOOD.

Richard says WHAT DO YOU SEE AS DOWN
SIDES OF SOME OF THOSE?

Shirley says WELL, I THINK FEWER ACTORS
ARE WORKING, AND THIS IS WHAT
WORRIES ME.
IF THE SAME TEN ACTORS ARE
GOING TO WORK IN THOSE THREE
CITIES, THEN WHAT ARE THE
OTHER ACTORS GOING TO DO?
AND IT'S ALREADY SO DIFFICULT
FOR SO MANY ACTORS.
IT'S JUST HARD TO SEE A GREAT
TALENT POOL, WHICH WE HAVE,
NOT WORKING.
AND LOSING THEM, TOO.

Richard says YOU HAVE BEEN A GREAT FAN,
IT'S INTERESTING, I'VE READ
THINGS WHERE YOU SAY, OH, I
WENT TO THAT CITY TO WORK
BECAUSE THAT
ACTRESS WAS IN IT,
AND I WANTED
TO WORK WITH HER.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says AND THAT'S A VERY
GENEROUS ATTITUDE.
BUT SOME OF THAT GENEROSITY
ISN'T IN THIS COUNTRY.
THIS IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
BACK BITING AND BACK STABBING
AND UNDER-THE-TABLE
STUFF THAT HAPPENS.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT
IS GOING ON AS WELL?

Shirley says I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TRUE.
I GUESS IT'S TRUE EVERYWHERE.
IT'S A PIECE OF LIFE
THAT I STAY AWAY FROM.
IT'S A PART OF CHARACTER
THAT I DON'T LIKE.
I DON'T APPRECIATE IT, I DON'T
WANT IT, I DON'T NEED IT.
AND I THINK IT'S
SO DESTRUCTIVE.
AND I JUST DON'T -- I JUST
THINK THERE'S NO PLACE FOR IT.
WE NEED TO BE VERY GENEROUS
WITH EACH OTHER, NOT ONLY IN
THE THEATRE, BUT EVERY DAY.

Richard says RIGHT.

Shirley says AND I JUST CAN'T
LIVE THAT WAY.
SO I'M REALLY NOT IN
COMPANIES THAT ARE LIKE THAT.
AND I THINK AS A SENIOR
MEMBER, IT'S UP TO YOU TO SEE
THAT A COMPANY DOESN'T
BECOME LIKE THAT.
BUT I'M NOT STRUGGLING.
I'M NOT RUNNING UP AGAINST IT.
AND WHEREVER I
DO, I'M NOT HAPPY.

Richard says SO FAR, I'VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT SHIRLEY DOUGLAS
EXCLUSIVELY, AND SHIRLEY'S
CAREER, BUT THERE IS ONE AREA
WE HAVE TO GET INTO, WHICH
IS, FOR SO MUCH OF YOUR LIFE,
PEOPLE HAVE TENDED TO DEFINE
YOU ACCORDING TO THREE MEN.
YOUR FATHER, YOUR
HUSBAND, AND YOUR SON.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says AND IT WOULD BE REMISS
OF ME NOT TO TACKLE THIS AT
ONE POINT, BUT I'VE
SAVED IT TO THE END.
YOUR DAD, TOMMY DOUGLAS.
YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK ABOUT
WHEN I WATCH
WIND AT MY BACK?
I THINK, WHAT WOULD HE
THINK OF THE WOMAN
YOU ARE PLAYING?
ISN'T THAT THE KIND
OF WOMAN HE HATED?

Shirley says OH, HE WOULD HAVE
LOVED IT, THOUGH.
HE WOULD HAVE
LOVED THIS SERIES.
HE WOULD HAVE JUST
ENJOYED IT ENORMOUSLY.
BECAUSE HE LOVED THE THEATRE.
MY FATHER LOVED THE THEATRE.
AND I REMEMBER AS A CHILD HIM
COMING HOME AND TELLING ME
THAT HE'D SEEN PAUL
ROBSON PLAY
OTHELLO.
AND HE LOVED LANGUAGE SO MUCH.
OH, NO, HE WOULD -- AND HE
WOULD BE AMUSED BY HER.

Richard says HE WOULD HAVE LIKED THE
SERIES, BUT I WONDER WHAT
HE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
OF MAY IN HERSELF?

Shirley says HE KNOWS WE UNDERSTAND THE
MAYS OF THE WORLD VERY WELL.

Richard says SO YOU GOT A FAIR BIT
OF THEATRICAL NURTURING
FROM HIM, AS WELL.

Shirley says YES, YES.

Richard says THE LINK THAT I CAN'T HELP
BUT THINK OF WHEN YOU HEAR
ABOUT YOU DOING SOCIAL
ACTIVISM AND THEATRE AS
A SOCIAL FORCE IS
COMING FROM HIM.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says AND WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT
IS, HAD YOU EVER BEEN TEMPTED
TO JUST STAY AND GO
INTO POLITICS YOURSELF?

Shirley says NO.

Richard says NEVER?
THAT WAS A VERY QUICK ANSWER.

Shirley says NO, I NEVER WAS.
I THINK...
HE ALWAYS SEEMED TO KNOW
THE ANSWERS TO WHAT TO DO.
AND I NEVER DID.
I WAS VERY YOUNG.
SO I HAD TO GO GROW UP
ON MY OWN, YOU KNOW?
AND THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS,
WHEN I WAS IN ENGLAND, YOU
KNOW, THERE WOULD BE DAYS I
THINK I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT
I THINK BECAUSE I HAD BEEN --
NOT THAT MY FATHER TOLD ME
WHAT TO THINK, BUT I WAS
ALWAYS AROUND SOMEONE WHO WAS
SAYING WHAT THEY THOUGHT.
SO YOU HAVE TO GET
AWAY AND GROW UP.
I ADMIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN
POLITICS, AND CAN DO THAT.
BUT, REALLY, IT'S NOT
WHERE I WANT TO GO.

Richard says DO YOU FEEL NOW THAT PEOPLE
HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED ALL THE
THINGS YOUR FATHER WORKED SO
HARD TO DO AND ESTABLISH?

Shirley says I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE SO
MANY PEOPLE MENTION IT TO ME
SO OFTEN, BUT I DON'T KNOW
ABOUT THE GREAT BULK OF THE
POPULATION, YOU KNOW?

Richard says I MEAN, IF PEOPLE KNEW, FOR
EXAMPLE, THAT SO MUCH OF THE
MEDICAL SYSTEM THAT HE
STRUGGLED TO GET ESTABLISHED,
IS AT RISK, IF THEY REALLY
BELIEVE THAT, OR DO YOU THINK
THEY FEEL, AS YOU SAID,
I'VE GROWN UP WITH IT.
I'VE NEVER HAD TO GO TO
AN INSURANCE COMPANY.

Shirley says I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WON'T
BELIEVE IT UNTIL IT HAPPENS.
UNTIL SOMEBODY SAYS
YOU CAN'T COME IN HERE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Shirley says YOU DON'T HAVE
THE RIGHT CARD.
I REMEMBER TAKING KIEFER TO A
HOSPITAL IN LOS ANGELES WHEN
HE BROKE -- KIEFER
BROKE SO MANY THINGS.

[laughing]

She continues THAT HE WAS ALWAYS THE ONE
WE WERE TAKING, AND I DIDN'T
HAVE MY HOSPITAL CARD WITH
ME, MY INSURANCE CARD.
AND THEY WOULDN'T
TAKE HIM AT UCLA.
SO SOMEONE HAD TO GO
BACK AND GET THE CARD.
AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY NO
DEALING WITH A CHILD
WITH A BROKEN LEG, YOU KNOW?
AND UNTIL THAT HAPPENS TO
PEOPLE, THEY DON'T SEEM TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT IS
GOING TO HAPPEN.

Richard says IT HAS TO HAPPEN
TO YOU FIRST.

Shirley says I'M AFRAID SO.
BUT I CAN'T BELIEVE WE ARE
THAT UNIMAGINATIVE THAT WE
CAN'T READ WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
OTHER COUNTRIES, EXCEPT MOST
COUNTRIES DO HAVE
MEDICAL CARE.

Richard says YOU TALKED ABOUT GOING DOWN
TO L.A., WE MENTIONED THE
FIRST MAN, BEING MARRIED TO
DONALD SUTHERLAND, THE WHOLE
CELEBRITY ROUTINE, THE WHOLE
CALIFORNIA STUFF, WHEN YOU
LOOK BACK ON THAT NOW, OUTSIDE
OF HAVING HAD A WONDERFUL
FAMILY, WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER?
WHAT COMES BACK TO YOU?

Shirley says THE CITY COMES BACK TO ME,
LOS ANGELES, WHICH I LIKE
VERY MUCH.
I'M VERY FOND OF LOS ANGELES.

Richard says REALLY?
THAT SURPRISES ME TOTALLY.

Shirley says I LOVE LOS ANGELES.

Richard says WHY DO YOU LIKE IT?

Shirley says FIRST OF ALL, I
LOVE THE WEATHER.
THEN I LOVE THE PEOPLE.
I'VE MET SO MANY INTERESTING
FANTASTIC PEOPLE IN L.A.
IT'S A VERY, VERY
COMPLICATED TOWN.
IT'S FULL OF AMAZING TALENT.
THE WRITERS, THE
ARTISTS, IT'S JUST FULL
OF INTERESTING PEOPLE.
AND IT'S FULL OF POLITICALLY
INTERESTING PEOPLE.
SO I FOUND IT A GREAT CITY.
AND THAT WAS MY MAIN THING,
THE MOVIE INDUSTRY WAS
ALL PART OF THAT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Shirley says AND IT WAS INTERESTING THE
FIRST YEAR LEARNING HOW THAT
WORKS, HOW THE MOVIE
INDUSTRY WORKS.
IT'S A GREAT BIG BUSINESS.

Richard says BUT AT ONE POINT, WHEN YOU
DID FINALLY LEAVE AND CAME
BACK TO CANADA, YOU
DID DECIDE TO NOT JUST LEAVE,
BUT TO LEAVE AND COME
BACK TO CANADA, RIGHT?

Shirley says YES.

Richard says HOW COME?

Shirley says OH, I CAN'T IMAGINE
COMING TO ANYWHERE ELSE.
I THINK THIS WAS MY HOME.
THIS IS WHERE MY FAMILY WERE,
AND THE THEATRE, I KNEW,
WAS DOING VERY WELL HERE.
AND THAT'S WHAT
I WANTED TO DO.
AND THAT'S WHY I CAME.

Richard says IT WASN'T EASY, THOUGH,
THOSE YEARS AFTER.

Shirley says NO, NO THEY WEREN'T.
I THINK ANY TIME YOU'RE A
SINGLE MOTHER WITH TWO CHILDREN.
I HAVE THREE CHILDREN, BUT
TOM HAD ALREADY LEFT HOME.
IT'S HARD, IT'S VERY HARD.
AND IT'S A TOUGH BUSINESS WITH
CHILDREN BECAUSE THE HOURS
ARE ALL WRONG.
IF YOU WORK FROM NINE TO FIVE,
YOU CAN WORK THE HOURS IN
WITH CHILDREN.
BUT YOU'RE ALL COMING HOME
AND LEAVING AT THE WRONG
TIMES OF DAY.
WHEN THEY WERE HAVING THEIR
HOMEWORK TO DO, I WOULD BE
LEAVING FOR THE THEATRE.
SO IT'S A VERY
COMPLICATED TIME.
AND ALSO, I LEFT TOWN
A LOT TO DO PLAYS.
AND THAT WAS VERY
HARD ON THEM.

Richard says ALSO, IT MUST HAVE BEEN
DOUBLY HARD BECAUSE HARKENING
BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER
IN THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE
WHEN YOU WORK YOU LIKE TO
TOTALLY COMMIT TO YOUR ART.

Shirley says YES.

Richard says AND YOU WANT TO HAVE
PERSONAL LIFE AND THAT.
AND TO RAISE CHILDREN, AND
THEN TO HAVE TO BE DEVOTING
YOURSELF TO YOUR ART
PART-TIME, MUST HAVE CAUSED AN
EVEN GREATER TENSION.

Shirley says IT JUST MAKES YOU TIRED.
AND I THINK SINGLE MOTHERS AND
SINGLE PARENTS ARE SO TIRED.
IN FACT, PARENTS PERIOD.
IT'S A VERY, VERY HARD JOB.

Richard says BUT FROM ALL ACCOUNTS,
YOU KEPT UP WONDERFULLY.
I THOUGHT OF THAT WHEN I SAW
YOU PLAY AMANDA BECAUSE
AMANDA IS, PEOPLE KEEP
FORGETTING, A SINGLE MOTHER,
AND SHE HAS TWO CHILDREN.
BUT SHE'S UP THERE, AND SHE'S
GOT THE BREAKFAST ON THE TABLE.
IT'S ANOTHER KIEFER MEMORY OF
YOU, IS THAT EVEN WHEN YOU
WERE WORKING IMPOSSIBLE
HOURS, THERE WAS BREAKFAST
SITTING THERE.

Shirley says THAT'S BECAUSE MY
MOTHER ALWAYS DID IT.
YOU SEE?
THERE IS SOMETHING THAT
KEEPS REPEATING ITSELF
IN YOUR HISTORY.
MY MOTHER ALWAYS HAD WONDERFUL
BREAKFASTS, AND ALWAYS HAD
TABLECLOTHS ON THE
TABLE WITH DAFFODILS.
THERE WAS ALWAYS THAT CHEERY,
WONDERFUL BREAKFAST THING
THAT MY MOTHER DID.
I THINK THAT'S WHY
I ALWAYS DID IT.

Richard says SO IT KEPT ON.
THAT'S ONE PART OF
THE GOLDEN THREAD.
AND THE REST OF THE GOLDEN
THREAD BRINGS US TO MAN THREE,
YOUR SON, KIEFER.
DID YOU EVER THINK, YES,
YOU'RE AN ACTRESS, YES, YOU
MARRIED A MOVIE STAR, THAT
YOU'D HAVE A SON WHO WOULD
HAVE AN EVEN GREATER FAME?

Shirley says NO, NOT AT ALL.
NOT AT ALL.
AND HE WAS IN A PLAY,
DIRECTED BY DONALD FREED.

Richard says BUT YOU NEVER ENCOURAGED
OR DISCOURAGED EITHER WAY?

Shirley says NO.
I THINK IF PEOPLE
WANT TO DO SOMETHING,
THEN THEY WILL
KEEP DOING IT.
AND THEN YOU HELP
THEM GO ALONG.
KIEFER PLAYED THE
VIOLIN VERY WELL.
AND I HAVE VERY FOND IMAGES
OF KIEFER ON A DIRT BIKE WITH
THE VIOLIN STRAPPED ON THE
BACK, THE CAST ON THE LEG,
FLYING AROUND A CORNER.
HE WAS ALWAYS THIS
VERY VITAL CHILD.
AND THEN HE STARTED GOING
TO AUDITIONS IN TORONTO.
BECAUSE A NEIGHBOUR WENT.
HE WENT WITH THE
NEIGHBOUR TO AN AUDITION.
AND HE STARTED TO THINK
THAT WAS VERY INTERESTING.
AND THEN HE AUDITIONED FOR
A COUPLE OF THINGS HIMSELF.
AND THEN
BAY BOY
TURNED UP.

Richard says RIGHT.
AND FROM THERE...

Shirley says AND FROM THERE ON,
THINGS TOOK OFF FOR HIM.

Richard says AND THINGS ARE
TAKING OFF FOR YOU.
THE LESSON I'VE LEARNED
TALKING TO YOU TODAY IS EACH
PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR THEMSELVES.
AND IT WORKS OUT WELL
FOR YOU, SHIRLEY DOUGLAS.

Shirley says OH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
THANK YOU.

Richard says THANK YOU.

He faces the screen and concludes
FOR
DIALOGUE,
I'M
RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
GOOD-BYE FOR NOW.

Music plays as the end slate reads “Dialogue.”

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Shirley Douglas