Transcript: Bonnie Stern | Mar 21, 1997

(Rhythmic string and wind music plays)

In animation, a word in pink slides by against a gray background as hands paint strokes using paintbrushes, play a piano, and touch as in a ballet performance.

The title of the show reads “Dialogue.”

The title of the episode pops up against an image of Richard Ouzounian and a guest sitting on chairs on a theatre stage: “Bonnie Stern. Author.”

Richard and Bonnie are surrounded by gray curtains.

Then, Richard appears facing the screen. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted blond hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a blue suit, and a striped blue shirt.

He says YOU'VE ALL HEARD THE PHRASE
'YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT'.
WELL, I TEND TO BELIEVE IN IT
AFTER READING THE NEW BOOK
BY MY NEXT GUEST.
IT'S CALLED
MORE
HEART SMART COOKING.
AND THE LADY IN QUESTION
HAS A LOT OF HEART,
AND SHE'S VERY SMART.
THIS
DIALOGUE
IS
WITH BONNIE STERN.

Bonnie is in her forties, with short wavy red hair in a wide bob. She’s wearing rounded glasses, a gray jacket, and a red sweater.

Richard continues BONNIE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

Bonnie says IT'S GREAT TO
BE HERE, RICHARD.
THANK YOU.

Richard says NOW, YOU ARE KNOWN AS A FOOD
EXPERT, A COOKBOOK WRITER,
YOU RUN COOKING SCHOOLS, AND
YOU ARE ALSO VERY CONCERNED
WITH EATING HEALTHILY, OKAY?
OKAY, THIS MORNING,
WHAT DID YOU HAVE?
WHAT'S A HEALTHY BREAKFAST
FOR BONNIE STERN?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Bonnie Stern. Author."

Bonnie says WELL, I LOVE BREAKFAST.
AND I NEVER USED TO EAT
BREAKFAST BECAUSE I USED TO
THINK IF I HAD BREAKFAST,
THEN I WOULD GAIN WEIGHT,
OR IT WOULD BE TOO MUCH
FOOD DURING THE DAY.
BECAUSE I LOVE FOOD,
AND I EAT ALL DAY.
SO WHEN I GOT MARRIED,
MY HUSBAND IS A VERY
ORGANIZED EATER.
HE'S VERY METHODICAL.
HE'S A DOCTOR.
HE'S VERY INTERESTED
IN HEALTH.
AND HE ALWAYS ATE BREAKFAST.
SO I STARTED EATING BREAKFAST,
AND IT REALLY WAS WONDERFUL.
AND I ENDED UP FEELING THAT
I REALLY DIDN'T HAVE TO EAT
THAT MUCH DURING THE DAY, AND
I COULD CONTROL MY WEIGHT
MUCH BETTER, HAVING A GOOD
BREAKFAST TO START OFF THE DAY.
SO EVERY MORNING, I HAVE
SOMETHING LIKE FRESH FRUIT,
AND IT COULD BE IN YOGURT,
OR IT COULD BE ON CEREAL.
AND I HAVE CEREAL.
AND I HAVE BRAN.
AND I HAVE USUALLY TEA.
AND I'M NOT REALLY
A JUICE DRINKER.
I'D MUCH RATHER EAT THE
FRUIT THAN DRINK THE JUICE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK
EVERYBODY CAN WORK OUT
SOMETHING GOOD FOR THEMSELVES,
WHETHER IT'S A BAGEL, OR
YOU KNOW, SOMETHING HEALTHFUL
THAT DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF
FAT IN IT, AND YOU
REALLY GET YOUR DAY OFF.
YOU FEEL GOOD.
YOU JUST FEEL GOOD.

Richard says NOW PEOPLE HAVE SAID THERE
ARE SO MANY COOKBOOKS OUT
NOWADAYS, AND SO MUCH EMPHASIS
BEING PLACED ON LOW FAT
COOKING AND EATING HEALTHILY.
WHEN DO YOU THINK
THIS REALLY STARTED?

Bonnie says WELL, I'VE HAD MY COOKING
SCHOOL FOR 23 YEARS.
I USED TO FEEL REALLY
WELL ESTABLISHED.

Richard says YOU STARTED AT THREE.
THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

Bonnie says I'M FEELING VERY OLD.
BUT, ANYWAY, AND I WOULD SAY
PROBABLY ABOUT 17 YEARS AGO,
I STARTED TO REALLY
GET INTERESTED IN
MORE LOW FAT COOKING.
AND I REALIZED PEOPLE WEREN'T
GOING TO BE EATING HIGH FAT
FOOD ALL THE TIME.
AND THAT PEOPLE WANTED TO
EXERCISE, AND THEY REALLY
WANTED TO KEEP THEIR
WEIGHT UNDER CONTROL.
AND I STARTED OFFERING CLASSES
IN LOW FAT COOKING 17 YEARS AGO.
AND NO ONE TOOK THEM.
NO ONE WANTED THEM.

Richard says THAT WAS THE '80s, BONNIE.

Bonnie says BUT IT WAS SOMETHING I
WAS REALLY INTERESTED IN.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS
I'VE DONE, EVER SINCE I'VE
STARTED, IS DONE THE
THINGS I WAS INTERESTED IN.
HOPEFULLY, PEOPLE WOULD
BE INTERESTED, TOO.
AND EVENTUALLY,
IT DID CATCH UP.
AND EVERYBODY'S INTERESTED
IN IT NOW, YOU KNOW?

Richard says I'VE HEARD IT SUGGESTED LIKE
EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD
TODAY, THE BOOMERS
DRIVE COOKING TRENDS.
AND BACK IN THE '70s WHEN THE
BOOMERS ALL HAD MONEY AND
HAD NO KIDS, IT WAS ALL THE
FOREIGN COOKBOOKS, RIGHT?
YOU COULD GO TRAVEL.
YOU COULD LEARN HOW TO DO
THAI, AND ALL OF THIS AND THAT.
AND IN THE '80s, IT GOT
TO BE EVEN MORE INDULGENT.
IT WAS ALL THESE
EXTRAVAGANT THINGS.
BOOKS LIKE
THE SILVER PALATE
COOKBOOK,
WHICH WERE HOW
MANY SAUCES CAN YOU PILE ON
ONE PLATE AT A DINNER TIME?
BUT NOW IT'S THE '90s, BOOMERS
ARE APPROACHING THAT CERTAIN
HALF CENTURY MARK, BUT THEY
DON'T WANT TO LOOK LIKE IT.
SO CONSEQUENTLY...?

Bonnie says WELL, THEY ARE MORE
INTERESTED IN HEALTHFUL
EATING, THEY ARE.
BUT EVERYTHING HAS
TO BE DELICIOUS.
AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE
FORGOTTEN ABOUT ALL THE FOODS
FROM AROUND THE WORLD.
AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE
FORGOTTEN ABOUT ALL THE
DELICIOUS THINGS.
AND EVERYBODY HAS THEIR
TREATS, AND EVERYBODY WANTS
THEIR THINGS THEY WILL SORT OF
GO OFF THEIR HEALTHFUL EATING
THING FOR, BUT I THINK WHAT
SCARES ME IS NOW THERE ARE A
LOT OF ARTIFICIAL FOODS, THERE
ARE A LOT OF FOODS THAT JUST
SAY LOW FAT, AND PEOPLE ARE
BUYING THEM BECAUSE THEY THINK
THEY ARE HEALTHFUL.
BUT, YOU KNOW, REALLY,
THEY HAVE CALORIES, TOO.
AND IF YOU EAT A LOT OF LOW
FAT FOOD, YOU CAN GAIN WEIGHT.
THEY SAY THERE HAS NEVER BEEN
SO MUCH LOW FAT FOOD ON THE
MARKET, BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
PEOPLE ARE GETTING HEAVIER.
AND THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S
VERY IMPORTANT THAT LOW FAT
FOOD BE REALLY DELICIOUS.
AND THAT WHEN YOU MAKE IT
FOR YOURSELF, YOU KNOW THE
QUALITY OF INGREDIENTS
YOU ARE PUTTING IN.
YOU KNOW OR TRUST THE PERSON
WHO WROTE THE RECIPE.
AND I KNOW FROM MY POINT OF
VIEW, IT ISN'T WORTH COOKING
IF SOMETHING ISN'T GOING TO
BE JUST ABSOLUTELY DELICIOUS.
AND THERE IS A LOT OF REALLY
WONDERFUL RECIPES IN THE WORLD
THAT ARE NATURALLY LOW IN FAT,
OR THAT CAN BE ADAPTED EASILY
TO BE LOW IN FAT.
I'M THE TYPE OF PERSON IF
SOMETHING IS REALLY RICH AND
GOOEY AND WONDERFUL, AND
THAT'S WHAT YOUR DREAMS ARE
MADE OF, JUST LEAVE IT.
DON'T HAVE IT VERY OFTEN, AND
HAVE A SMALL PORTION OF IT.
BUT LEAVE IT, AND HAVE IT JUST
THAT WAY, SO WHEN YOU HAVE IT
YOU'LL FEEL SATISFIED.
IF YOU ARE JUST DYING FOR
SOMETHING REALLY RICH AND
GOOEY, AND YOU HAVE A LOW FAT
VERSION OF IT, YOU JUST KEEP
EATING TRYING TO FIND IT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Bonnie says AND IF YOU JUST HAVE THE
REAL THING TO BEGIN WITH,
AND JUST A SMALL
PORTION NOT TOO OFTEN.
NOW, IT IS SELF-CONTROL AND
MODERATION, AND ALL THAT KIND
OF THING, BUT I THINK IT'S
MORE IMPORTANT THAN WE GO IN
THAT DIRECTION, AND GO INTO
THE YOU CAN EAT AS MUCH AS YOU
WANT BECAUSE IT IS LOW FAT.

Richard says NOW, LET'S COME
BACK TO THIS POINT.
BUT I WANT TO FIND OUT HOW
YOU GOT TO THIS JOURNEY.
YOU GREW UP, I BELIEVE,
WHAT, IN HAMILTON?

Bonnie says NO, TORONTO.

Richard says IN TORONTO.
AND OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU
GREW UP, YOU WEREN'T IN A
BACKGROUND THAT HAD A LOT OF
LOW FAT BEING FLUNG AT YOU
ALL THE TIME.
WHEN YOU WERE A GIRL,
WHAT DID YOU START EATING?
WHAT KIND OF A
BACKGROUND WAS IT?

Bonnie says I WAS A VERY PICKY EATER.
I WAS A
VERY
PICKY EATER.
SO MY CHILDREN ARE VERY PICKY
EATERS, BUT THAT'S OKAY
BECAUSE THEY'VE
COME BY IT HONESTLY.
I HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF RESPECT
FOR CHILDREN'S TASTE BUDS
BECAUSE MY MOTHER HAD A GREAT
DEAL OF, MY FATHER DID, TOO,
BUT HE DIDN'T DO THE COOKING,
SO I DON'T INCLUDE HIM IN
THIS, BUT MY MOTHER
HAD A LOT OF PATIENCE.

Richard says LIKE WHAT WOULDN'T YOU EAT?

Bonnie says I WOULDN'T EAT ANYTHING.
I MEAN, IT WOULD BE EASIER TO
TELL YOU WHAT I WOULD EAT.

Richard says WHAT WOULD YOU EAT?

Bonnie says I WOULD EAT POACHED
EGGS ON TOAST.
I WOULD EAT LAMB CHOPS.
I WOULD EAT POTATOES.
I WOULD EAT CARROTS.
I LOVED THINGS LIKE PANCAKES
AND FRENCH TOAST, AND THINGS
LIKE THAT.
AND THAT'S ABOUT IT.

Richard says OKAY.
SO WE HAVE POACHED EGGS
AND WE HAVE LAMB CHOPS.
THIS DOES NOT SEEM LIKE A
PROMISING KIND OF CULINARY,
GOURMET BEGINNING.

Bonnie says THAT'S TRUE, IT WASN'T.
AND WHEN I WENT TO UNIVERSITY
AND I GRADUATED IN ENGLISH.
BUT WHILE I WAS IN UNIVERSITY,
MY FRIENDS REALLY LIKED TO
EXPERIMENT AND LIKED
TO EAT DIFFERENT FOODS.
AND IT WAS REALLY THEN I WOULD
HAVE, LET'S SAY, BROCCOLI OR
CAULIFLOWER FOR
THE FIRST TIME.
SO, REALLY, YOU KNOW, IF
YOU'VE GOT CHILDREN OUT THERE
WHO ARE PICKY EATERS,
THERE IS STILL HOPE.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM.

Richard says ALSO, TORONTO IN THAT PERIOD,
DIDN'T EXACTLY HAVE A WIDE
ARRAY OF CULINARY DELIGHTS
SPREAD BEFORE YOU, DID IT?

Bonnie says NO, THEY DIDN'T.
TORONTO DIDN'T.
AND WHEN I WENT TO CHEF
TRAINING, WHICH I DID IN 1969,
THERE WERE JUST REALLY A HANDFUL
OF RESTAURANTS IN TORONTO.
FENTON'S HADN'T OPENED YET,
THE FOUR SEASONS WASN'T THERE.
I MEAN, THERE REALLY
WASN'T ANYTHING GOING ON.
AND I WENT TO CHEF TRAINING
SCHOOL BECAUSE I WAS GOING
TO BE A LIBRARIAN.
AND I HAD GRADUATED
IN ENGLISH.
AND I LOVED TO READ.
I JUST ATE BOOKS, YOU
KNOW, I JUST COULDN'T STOP.
AND I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE
A WONDERFUL CAREER, BECAUSE
I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING
THAT I REALLY LOVED.
AND AFTER I FINISHED
UNIVERSITY, WITH AN
UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE, I JUST
DECIDED I WANTED TO TAKE
A COUPLE OF YEARS OFF.
AND I WAS ARTISTIC, BUT NOT
ARTISTIC ENOUGH TO BE A
PAINTER OR A SCULPTOR OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
OR I DIDN'T FEEL THAT
I COULD EXCEL IN THAT.
AND I THOUGHT, WELL,
I LOVED TO COOK.
I HAD BEEN COOKING FOR MY
FRIENDS IN UNIVERSITY, AND I
THOUGHT, WELL MAYBE I'LL TAKE
A YEAR OFF AND I'LL LEARN TO
BE A BETTER COOK, AND I'LL
COME BACK AND BE A LIBRARIAN.
AND IT JUST OPENED SO
MANY DOORS FOR ME.
AND I GUESS MAYBE I THOUGHT
AT THE BEGINNING THAT
I WOULD WANT A RESTAURANT.
BUT THE MORE I LEARNED ABOUT
OWNING A RESTAURANT, THE MORE
I DIDN'T WANT A RESTAURANT.
IT WAS VERY SCARY.

Richard says NOW, CHEF TRAINING, BACK IN
YOU SAID 1969, WAS IT STILL
ALONG THE STANDARD
CLASSIC FRENCH LINES?

Bonnie says IT WAS DEFINITELY FRENCH.
AND I WAS VERY FORTUNATE.
I WENT TO GEORGE
BROWN COLLEGE.
IN A CLASS THAT NOW THEY
HAVE MAYBE 100 STUDENTS WITH
ANOTHER HUNDRED ON THE WAIT
LIST, THERE WERE SIX OF US.
AND THE CHEF INSTRUCTORS
WERE ALL EUROPEAN.
THEY WERE WONDERFUL.
THEY WERE JUST WAITING TO GET
THEIR HANDS ON SOMEONE WHO
WANTED TO LEARN REALLY
DELICIOUS COOKING IDEAS.
AND I WAS REALLY VERY LUCKY.
THEY WERE VERY
EXCITED TO TEACH ME.
I WAS A VERY ENTHUSIASTIC
STUDENT, AND I JUST LOVED IT.
AND COMING FROM UNIVERSITY,
WHERE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD
MAYBE TEN OR 12 CLASSES A WEEK
IN YOUR THIRD YEAR, YOU HAD
TO BE THERE EIGHT OR NINE
HOURS A DAY, FIVE DAYS A WEEK
AT 7 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, BUT
IT WAS ALL THINGS THAT WERE
SORT OF USEFUL AND PRACTICAL
AND ARTISTIC AND LOVELY.
I JUST LOVED IT.
I JUST LOVED IT.
YOU KNOW, I CAN STILL REMEMBER
NOW THINKING ABOUT IT.

Richard says NOW, OUTSIDE OF LEARNING HOW
TO MAKE A GREAT BERNAISE, AND
A GREAT SAUCE ESPAGNOLE, AND
ALL OF THIS, WHAT DID YOU TAKE
AWAY ABOUT FOOD THAT MADE YOU
WANT TO DO THIS FOR A LIFETIME?

Bonnie says I THINK I TOOK AWAY
ALSO AN ORGANIZED WAY
OF LEARNING TO COOK.
AND BEFORE I HAD GONE, YOU KNOW,
YOU LEARN TO COOK BY RECIPE.
WHEREAS AFTER I HAD DONE
THIS, YOU LEARN TO COOK BY
CATEGORIES OF FOOD.
YOU LEARNED ABOUT SOUPS, OR
YOU LEARNED ABOUT SAUCES, AND
YOU LEARNED ABOUT PASTA.
AND AFTER THAT, WHEN I LEFT
I WANTED TO KNOW MORE
ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT KIND
OF CUISINES, AND I WENT AND
STUDIED IN CHINA AND ITALY
AND FRANCE AND WENT TO THE
COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN.
I STILL HAVEN'T BEEN
EVERYWHERE YET,
BUT THAT'S WHAT IS SO
WONDERFUL ABOUT COOKING.
THERE IS ALWAYS SO
MUCH MORE TO LEARN.

Richard says WHEN YOU GO OFF TO A PLACE
LIKE CHINA, YOU MENTIONED AT
AN EARLY AGE, TO
GO AND STUDY THERE.
THERE'S A LANGUAGE BLOCK.

Bonnie says I WAS VERY LUCKY.
AND AT THAT TIME, THERE
WEREN'T THAT MANY PEOPLE
IN THE FIELD.
SO YOU MEET PEOPLE
WHO KNOW THINGS.
AND I WENT TO TAIWAN TO TAKE
COOKING CLASSES AT A SCHOOL
THAT A FRIEND OF MINE, THAT I
MET ACCIDENTALLY, NINA SIMONS,
WHO IS NOW ONE OF THE NORTH
AMERICAN EXPERTS IN CHINESE
COOKING, SHE HAD LIVED
THERE FOR FOUR YEARS.
SO SHE TOOK A GROUP BACK FOR A
COUPLE OF WEEKS TO STUDY AT A
SCHOOL THAT SHE STUDIED AT.
AND SHE WAS THE INTERPRETER
BECAUSE SHE KNEW CHINESE
BY THAT POINT.
AND IT WAS JUST VERY
LUCKY AND WONDERFUL.

Richard says DO YOU TRY TO IMMERSE
YOURSELF INTO THE MIND SET OF
A COUNTRY WHEN YOU ARE THERE?
BECAUSE IT'S NOT
JUST RECIPES, ISN'T IT?
PEOPLE COOK THAT WAY AS A
REFLECTION OF WHO THEY ARE.

Bonnie says THEIR LIFE, AND, YOU KNOW,
EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING IN
THEIR WORLD.
SURE.
IT IS HARD TO DO THAT, YOU
KNOW, WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THAT
MUCH TIME.
AND, UNFORTUNATELY, I
DID ESTABLISH -- NOT
UNFORTUNATELY, BUT IN A
DIFFERENT WAY, I ESTABLISHED
MY SCHOOL VERY EARLY.
SO WHEN I DID GO TO THESE
DIFFERENT COUNTRIES,
I COULDN'T GO LONGER
THAN A COUPLE OF WEEKS.
SO THAT'S ONE DRAWBACK.
I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE GREAT
TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL WHEN YOU
ARE YOUNG AND REALLY GO AND
LIVE IN A PLACE, AT LEAST FOR
A COUPLE OF MONTHS
OR A YEAR OR SO.

Richard says NOW AGAIN, TODAY, IF YOU
ARE IN TORONTO, OR IN ONTARIO,
AND YOU KNOW ABOUT COOKING,
YOU KNOW BONNIE STERN.
BUT WHEN YOU STARTED THAT
SCHOOL, 23 YEARS AGO,
DID PEOPLE SAY, SO WHO
ARE YOU, AND WHY ARE YOU
TEACHING COOKING?

Bonnie says OH, THEY REALLY DID.
AND I REMEMBER THEN, TOO, YOU
KNOW, GEORGE BROWN COLLEGE
WASN'T NEARLY AS HIGHLY
REGARDED IN TERMS OF COOKING
THEN, AS IT IS NOW, TOO, AS A
TRAINING CENTRE FOR PEOPLE.
AND I REMEMBER I HAD TO SAY
THAT I HAD A DEGREE FROM THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, EVEN
THOUGH IT HAD NOTHING TO DO
WITH COOKING AT ALL, BUT IT GAVE
ME SOME KIND OF CREDIBILITY.
AND NOW, YOU KNOW, YOU
DON'T NEED TO DO THAT.
AND I THINK COOKING HAS REALLY
COME SO FAR, AND PEOPLE ARE
SO INTERESTED IN FOOD.
BUT EVEN SOMETIMES I LOOK BACK
AT MYSELF AND THINK, HOW DID
YOU GET THE NERVE TO OPEN UP A
COOKING SCHOOL WHEN YOU WERE
23 YEARS OLD.

Richard says NOW, I KNOW YOU'RE NOT
SUPPOSED TO TELL BAD STORIES
ABOUT YOURSELF, BUT DID YOU
HAVE ANY DISASTERS IN THE
FIRST YEAR OR SO WHEN YOU
WERE TRYING TO ORGANIZE THE
SCHOOL AND THINGS
THAT DIDN'T GO RIGHT?

Bonnie says OH, I THINK IN COOKING, OR
IN BUSINESS, OR IN ANYTHING,
NOTHING EVER GOES SMOOTHLY.
EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS PROBLEMS.
BUT IT'S HOW YOU HANDLE
THE PROBLEMS THAT COUNT,
NOT WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHETHER
YOU REMEMBER THEM OR NOT IN A
NEGATIVE WAY IS DETERMINED
BY HOW YOU'VE HANDLED THEM,
AS OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY ARE.
MY FATHER IS A CHARTERED
ACCOUNTANT, AND WHEN I OPENED
THE COOKING SCHOOL, I MEAN,
HE WAS JUST HORRIFIED.
BUT I LOOKED AT IT, YOU KNOW,
MY PARENTS WEREN'T THAT HAPPY
AT THAT POINT, GOING INTO
THE FOOD BUSINESS WHEN THEY
THOUGHT I WOULD HAVE SOME KIND
OF CAREER FROM UNIVERSITY,
AND IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT.
CHEFS WEREN'T HIGHLY
REGARDED THEN.
THERE WASN'T A LOT OF COOKING
SCHOOLS WHERE THEY WOULD
THINK THEIR CHILD WOULD
HAVE A COMFORTABLE LIFE.
BUT NOW, I UNDERSTAND HIS
PROBLEM SEEING WHAT I DID.
AT THAT POINT, I JUST THOUGHT
HE WAS PUTTING UP BARRIERS,
YOU KNOW, AGAINST ME
STARTING SOMETHING.
BUT IT IS A LOT OF HARD WORK
HAVING A SMALL BUSINESS.
AND IT SEEMS TO BE GETTING
HARDER AND HARDER.
IT'S NOT GETTING ANY
EASIER, 23 YEARS LATER.

Richard says WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DID YOU
GET IN THOSE FIRST YEARS?

Bonnie says IN THE FIRST YEARS, WELL, I
STARTED WITH THREE STUDENTS,
NOW I HAVE ABOUT
30 IN A CLASS.
ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO JUST
LOVE TO COOK, OR LOVE TO EAT
AND WANTED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT
IT AND WANTED TO COOK
MORE EASILY.
I WAS VERY LUCKY, AND STILL
AM, IN THAT A LOT OF MY BUSINESS
COMES FROM WORD OF MOUTH.
SO AS LONG AS I COULD GET
PEOPLE IN THERE, PEOPLE TOLD
THEIR FRIENDS ABOUT
IT, AND THEN CAME.
AND THEY WOULD COME
TOGETHER IN GROUPS.
BUT WE ALWAYS HAD A VERY BIG
CROSS SECTION OF PEOPLE.
YOUNGER PEOPLE STARTING
OUT AND WANTING TO LEARN
BASICS PROPERLY.
PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN COOKING
FOR A LONG TIME BUT WANTED
NEW IDEAS, PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN
COOKING FOR A LONG TIME BUT
DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE
DOING, AND WANTED TO COOK
BETTER AND MORE HEALTHFULLY.
MEN WHO WANTED TO COOK.
SINGLE PEOPLE WHO
WANTED TO COOK.
MARRIED PEOPLE WHO
WANTED TO COOK.
ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.
AND IT'S STILL THE SAME.
REALLY THE SAME CROSS SECTION.

Richard says HAVE YOU EVER SPOTTED
SOMEONE COMING IN AND SAY,
I SEE GREATNESS THERE.
I THINK YOU SHOULD GO ON
AND DO THIS FOR A CAREER?

Bonnie says WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE COME AND
GET VERY INSPIRED BY COOKING
BECAUSE I THINK IN ANY FIELD,
IT DEPENDS ON YOUR TEACHER.
AND IF YOUR TEACHER IS VERY
EXCITED ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE
DOING, AND YOU CAN TELL
WHETHER SOMEBODY REALLY LIKES
WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE COME
TO ME, YOU KNOW, WANTING TO
CHANGE CAREERS, OR WANTING
TO DO SOMETHING IN THE FOOD
BUSINESS, AND THEN, YOU KNOW,
JUST GET EXCITED ABOUT IT.
AND YOU CAN TELL WHEN
YOU ARE TALKING TO THEM.
YOU CAN'T ALWAYS TELL WHETHER
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO REALLY
LAST OR NOT BECAUSE
IT IS VERY HARD.
IT'S A VERY
DIFFERENT BUSINESS.
THE HOURS ARE BAD.
THE WORK IS VERY
HARD, VERY PHYSICAL.
AND IF YOU LOVE WHAT YOU
ARE DOING, IT LOOKS LIKE
A LOT OF FUN.
YOU KNOW, YOU GO TO A
RESTAURANT, AND IT LOOKS LIKE
EVERYBODY IS HAVING FUN.
WELL, YOU KNOW, IF YOU KNOW
THE FOOD BUSINESS, YOU HAVE
FUN, BUT IT'S A
LOT OF HARD WORK.
LOOKS LIKE HARD WORK TO ME.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT
THIS FUN THING.

Richard says NOW, AROUND THIS TIME, A
LITTLE AFTER THAT YOU STARTED
THE COOKING SCHOOL, AGAIN,
FINE, YOU'VE GOT A SCHOOL,
YOU'RE ESTABLISHING YOURSELF,
YOU STARTED ON THE RADIO.
DID THAT MAKE A
BIG DIFFERENCE?

Bonnie says WELL, YEAH, IT DID MAKE A BIG
DIFFERENCE BECAUSE IT GAVE ME
A LOT OF CREDIBILITY.
I LOVE RADIO.
I THINK RADIO IS A VERY
EXCITING FIELD BECAUSE IF YOU
REALLY ARE EXCITED ABOUT WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, ALL YOU HAVE IS
YOUR VOICE AND YOUR OWN
INSIDE EXCITEMENT, THERE'S
NOTHING VISUAL TO
HELP YOU ALONG.
IT'S ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE,
BUT, YOU KNOW, ALSO YOUR
EXCITEMENT ABOUT A SUBJECT.
AND IT WAS SOMETHING
I JUST LOVED DOING.
I STILL LOVE DOING RADIO.
I
LOVE
RADIO.

Richard says AND YOU GOT AN IMMEDIATE,
VERY STRONG RESPONSE
FROM LISTENERS.
I REMEMBER HEARING ONE STORY
ABOUT A WOMAN WHO SAID SHE HAD
TO HEAR A RECIPE, AND SHE
WAS DRIVING IN HER CAR.
SHE TOOK HER LIPSTICK OUT
AND SCRIBBLED IT DOWN
ON A SERVIETTE.

Bonnie says YES, YES.
AND ONE OF THE FIRST RECIPES,
A SHORTBREAD COOKIE THAT I
STILL MAKE NOW FOR CHRISTMAS,
I THINK THEY GOT OVER 500
RESPONSES FOR RECIPES,
CALLS IN FOR RECIPES.
THAT WAS IN ABOUT 24 HOURS.
AND THEY HAD TO CHANGE IT YOU
HAD TO SEND IN A STAMPED,
SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE TO
BE ABLE TO GET THE RECIPES.

Richard says NOW, WE'RE TALKING
NOW THE LATE '70s.
AND THIS IS WHEN SOME OF THE
GREAT RESTAURANTS ARE STARTING
TO OPEN IN TORONTO.
AND IT IS GETTING A
BIT OF A PERSONALITY.
DID YOU FIND THAT CHANGE
BEING REFLECTED IN WHAT
YOU WERE DOING, AS WELL?

Bonnie says YES, IT WAS MORE EXCITING.
YOU HAD MORE COMPANIONSHIP.
YOU HAD MORE PEOPLE DOING
GREAT THINGS IN RESTAURANTS,
AND IT MADE IT
MUCH MORE EXCITING.
AND THE MORE PEOPLE WHO WERE
DOING REALLY GOOD THINGS,
THE MORE PEOPLE GOT
INTERESTED IN IT.
WHEN YOU'RE THE ONLY PERSON,
AND YOU'RE IN A TINY LITTLE
COOKING SCHOOL, IT'S HARD, AND
YOU HAVE A LITTLE BUSINESS,
IT'S HARD TO ADVERTISE,
IT'S HARD TO BROADCAST
WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, THE MORE
PEOPLE WHO GET INTO THE
BUSINESS, AND ARE DOING A GOOD
JOB, AND PEOPLE FEEL THAT
IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS
REALLY FUN AND EXCITING AND
DELICIOUS, AND WORTH KNOWING
MORE ABOUT, THEN IT SORT OF
HELPS EVERYBODY ALONG.

Richard says IS THERE A POINT WHERE YOU
NOTICED TORONTO BECOMING MORE
COSMOPOLITAN, IN TERMS OF THE
INTERNATIONAL INFLUENCES?
I MEAN, BEING ABLE TO
READILY GO AND BUY
ALL THESE INGREDIENTS.
I MEAN, YOUR LATEST BOOK HAS
INGREDIENTS IN IT THAT YOU
WOULDN'T HAVE EVEN MENTIONED
TO PEOPLE A DECADE AGO.

Bonnie says IT'S TRUE.
AND I THINK THAT COMES FROM
PEOPLE TRAVELLING A LOT.
IN THE EARLY '80s, PEOPLE
STARTED TO TRAVEL A LOT, AND
THEY WOULD GO TO ALL KINDS OF
EXOTIC PLACES, AND WHEN YOU
COME BACK, YOU WANT TO
BE ABLE TO COOK THE FOOD.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE, INSTEAD OF
TAKING PICTURES, WERE TAKING
RECIPES HOME, AND THEY
WANTED TO COOK THEM WHEN
THEY GOT BACK HOME.
AND OF COURSE WHEN DIFFERENT
ETHNIC GROUPS WOULD SETTLE IN
TORONTO, THEN YOU GOT
THE ETHNIC MARKETS.
AND ALSO, PEOPLE IN REGULAR
MARKETS WOULD WANT TO CARRY THE
INGREDIENTS THEIR CUSTOMERS
CAME IN AND ASKED FOR.
SO WHEN I STARTED THE COOKING
SCHOOL, YOU HAD TO GO DOWN
INTO SPADINA AND DUNDAS STREET
TO GET FRESH GINGER ROOT.
NOW, YOU CAN GET FRESH GINGER
ROOT EVERYWHERE AROUND HERE.
EVERYWHERE YOU CAN GET IT.
AND ALSO ACROSS CANADA.
WHEN I TRAVELLED FOR THE FIRST
HEART SMART COOKBOOK,
SIMPLY HEART SMART COOKING,
AND I WENT FROM NEWFOUNDLAND
ALL THE WAY OUT TO
BRITISH COLUMBIA, ALL THE
INGREDIENTS WERE AVAILABLE.
I NEVER HAD ANY TROUBLE
FINDING INGREDIENTS.
NOW I DON'T CALL FOR
REALLY ODD THINGS.
IN TORONTO, WE'RE LUCKY,
WE CAN GET EVERYTHING.
BUT YOU CAN GET SO MANY
WONDERFUL INGREDIENTS RIGHT
ACROSS THE COUNTRY NOW.

Richard says WHAT'S INTERESTING, I NOTICED
BACK IN, WAS IT '86, YOU
PUBLISHED THE FIRST BONNIE
STERN COOKBOOK FROM YOUR
COLLECTION OF THINGS YOU
DID ON THE RADIO SHOW.
AND THEN YOU'VE REISSUED
IT JUST THE LAST YEAR.

Bonnie says RIGHT.

Richard says AND YOU SAID YOU MADE SOME
CHANGES AND ADDED SOME THINGS
IN THERE.
NOW, I'M CURIOUS, WHICH
WAY DO YOU THINK PEOPLE
HAVE CHANGED IN THEIR TASTES?
LIKE WHAT KIND OF RECIPES DID
YOU DROP, AND WHAT DID YOU
ADD FROM ONE TO THE OTHER?

Bonnie says WELL, IT WASN'T QUITE AS MUCH
AS CHANGING IN TASTE AS IT WAS
I DROPPED SOME RECIPES
FOR CONCERNS ABOUT,
LET'S SAY, RAW EGGS.
SALMONELLA HAS BECOME
A PROBLEM WITH EGGS.
A LITTLE BIT OF A PROBLEM, I
MEAN, IT'S NOT A HUGE PROBLEM,
AND THERE IS VERY LITTLE
CHANCE YOU COULD GET
SALMONELLA FROM AN EGG IN
CANADA, BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
I DON'T LIKE TO TAKE ANY
CHANCES WITH PEOPLE.
AND IF YOU ARE WRITING A
COOKBOOK, OR YOU ARE GIVING
PEOPLE RECIPES, I JUST LIKE TO
BE A LITTLE BIT MORE ON THE
CAUTIOUS SIDE.
SO I TOOK OUT RECIPES THAT
CALLED FOR RAW EGGS IN THEM.
I ALSO TOOK OUT QUITE A BIT
OF THE FAT I DIDN'T THINK WAS
REALLY NECESSARY.
THERE ARE TIMES WHEN
IT IS NECESSARY.
IF I'M MAKING A RICH, GOOEY,
WONDERFUL CHOCOLATE BROWNIE,
THEN I LEFT THE
RECIPE THE SAME.
BUT IF I'M MAKING A SPAGHETTI
SAUCE, AND I USED TO CALL FOR
THREE TABLESPOONS OF OLIVE
OIL, I MIGHT TAKE IT BACK TO
ONE TABLESPOON OR TWO
TABLESPOONS, AND LET PEOPLE
DECIDE WHETHER THEY WANT TO
TAKE IT BACK A LITTLE BIT MORE.

Richard says I LOOK AT SOME COOKBOOKS I
HAD FROM THE '70s, AND '80s,
WHICH BEGIN, TO SAUTE TWO
CHICKEN BREASTS, IT SAYS,
PUT A QUARTER OF A CUP OF
OLIVE OIL IN THE PAN.
AND WE USED TO DO THIS
ROUTINELY ALL THE TIME.

Bonnie says YES.
WELL, OLIVE OIL IS INTERESTING
BECAUSE IT IS A MORE
HEALTHFUL FAT TO USE IN
COOKING THAN OTHER THINGS,
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IN
TERMS OF COOKING, YOU DON'T
NEED THAT MUCH.
IT DOES HAVE A WONDERFUL
FLAVOUR, THOUGH, AND IT ADDS
A TERRIFIC FLAVOUR, TOO.
BUT WHEN YOU'RE CUTTING
BACK ON THE FAT IN RECIPES,
SOMETIMES, IN SOME RECIPES,
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING,
BUT SOMETIMES YOU MIGHT TO JUST
USE MORE HERBS IN THE RECIPE.
AND I LOVE FRESH HERBS.
AND I THINK USING FRESH HERBS
JUST MAKE YOUR FOOT TASTE
LIKE SUMMER.
THEY JUST MAKE YOUR
FOOD TASTE ALIVE.
AND IT WILL TAKE THE PLACE
OF USING TOO MUCH SALT,
OR USING TOO MUCH FAT.
AND IT'S AN EASY, HEALTHFUL
INGREDIENT YOU CAN GET QUITE
EASILY NOW.
NOT ALL PLACES SELL ALL FRESH
HERBS, BUT THERE'S ENOUGH OF
THEM EVERYWHERE THAT YOU CAN
SUBSTITUTE OR USE DIFFERENT
FRESH HERBS THAT YOU
CAN FIND AVAILABLE.
SO, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ALL
KINDS OF WAYS YOU CAN CHANGE
RECIPES LIKE THAT, TOO.

Richard says IN THE WHOLE FOOD SCENE
IN CANADA, IT'S LARGELY
DOMINATED, THERE'S A GROUP OF
LADIES WHO, I GUESS COME TO
MIND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS
YOURSELF AND ELIZABETH BAIRD,
MONDA ROSENBERG AND MARION
KANE, AND IN THE STATES
IT SEEMS TO BE MORE BALANCED
WITH MEN AND WOMEN.
DO YOU THINK THERE'S A REASON
THAT WOMEN HAVE TAKEN THE
FOREFRONT IN CANADA
AND NOT RELINQUISHED IT?

Bonnie says ISN'T THAT FUNNY?
I NEVER ACTUALLY
EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT.
BUT NO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE IF I
HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME
TO THINK ABOUT IT.
NOTHING'S COMING TO
MIND RIGHT AWAY.
BUT I THINK THERE ARE STILL A
LOT OF CHEFS WHO HAVE A GREAT
DEAL OF INFLUENCE
FROM RESTAURANTS.
AND MOST OF THOSE
WOULD BE MEN.
I MEAN, YOU CAN SEE
THE BALANCE THERE.
I THINK IN THE STATES, WHAT'S
HAPPENED IS A LOT OF CHEFS
HAVE GONE FROM THE RESTAURANT
FIELD INTO THE WRITING FIELD,
OR INTO THE COOKING SCHOOL
FIELD, AND THAT'S STARTING TO
HAPPEN IN CANADA,
A LITTLE BIT.
BUT NOT ALL THAT MUCH.
WHEREAS IN THE STATES, THAT'S
HAPPENED A LITTLE BIT MORE.

Richard says YOU MENTIONED PEOPLE GOING
INTO THE WRITING FIELD.
WHEN YOU SIT DOWN -- BECAUSE
YOU STARTED AS A LIBRARIAN.

Bonnie says WELL, I WASN'T
QUITE A LIBRARIAN.

Richard says WHO WAS IN YOUR FAVOURITE
FOOD READING SECTION?
I DON'T MEAN RECIPES SO MUCH,
BUT WRITERS ABOUT FOOD.
ARE THERE PEOPLE YOU CLING
TO MORE THAN ANY OTHERS?

Bonnie says WELL, I LIKE TO READ
THE PEOPLE WHO I KNOW.
YOU KNOW, I FIND IT REALLY
MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE TO ME
IF I'VE MET THE PEOPLE.
AND AT MY SCHOOL, I'M VERY
LUCKY TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO
BROUGHT IN A TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF WONDERFUL
FOOD PEOPLE TO TEACH.
PEOPLE LIKE MADHUR JAFFREY,
JULIANA BAJOLI, MARCELLA
HAZAN, JACQUES PEPIN,
AND THEY WRITE VERY
SERIOUSLY ABOUT FOOD,
AS WELL AS DOING RECIPES, TOO.
SO I LOVE TO TALK TO THEM, AND
THEN I LOVE TO GO BACK OVER
THEIR BOOKS AND READ
THEIR BOOKS, AND IT KIND
OF COMES ALIVE.
I LOVE MARGARET VISSER.
I LOVE TO READ MARGARET
VISSER, YOU KNOW, I THINK
SHE'S JUST SPECTACULAR.
BUT SHE COMES ALIVE, TOO, IF
YOU'VE EVER SEEN HER TALK, OR
SPOKEN TO HER PERSONALLY,
IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Richard says THE TWO PEOPLE, I GUESS,
GIVE CREDIT TO FOR HAVING
VITALIZED THE COOKBOOK AND
COOK WRITING INDUSTRY IN
AMERICA WERE JAMES BEARD,
AS EARLY AS THE '50s,
AND JULIA CHILD, WHEN
SHE DID HER SWOOP UP THERE.
DO YOU FEEL THEY'VE HAD A
LASTING INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE,
OR WAS THAT VERY
MUCH OF THE TIME?

Bonnie says OH, NO, AND JULIA, FOR SURE,
STILL HAS A VERY LASTING
INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE.
YOU KNOW, SHE'S JUST
SO POSITIVE, AND SHE'S SO
ENTHUSIASTIC, AND SHE'S SO
AWARE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S
GOING ON IN THE FOOD WORLD, I
DON'T THINK SHE'LL EVER NOT
HAVE A STRONG
INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE.
AND JAMES BEARD, AS WELL.
THERE'S AN ASSOCIATION IN NEW
YORK CITY, THE JAMES BEARD
HOUSE THAT CARRIES ON, IN HIS
TRADITION OF HELPING YOUNGER
PEOPLE AND PAVING
THE WAY FOR THEM.
SO NO, I THINK THEY'LL ALWAYS
HAVE A VERY STRONG INFLUENCE.
I THINK THEY WERE THE TWO
PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE RIGHT AT
THAT RIGHT TIME WHEN FOOD
WAS JUST BECOMING INTERESTING
TO PEOPLE, AND THEY HELPED
PROMOTE IT IN A VERY GOOD SENSE.
I DON'T THINK THERE WILL
EVER BEEN ANYONE LIKE THEM.
I THINK NO ONE CAN
TAKE THE PLACE OF PEOPLE
THAT HAD THAT MUCH INFLUENCE.

Richard says THERE'S OTHER FOOD WRITERS.
I'M THINKING OF M.F.K. FISHER,
WHO WRITES, SOMEBODY SAID
BIOGRAPHERS THAT ARE
INTERTWINED WITH HER RECIPES,
AND EVEN JAMES BEARD DID THAT
WONDERFUL FIRST VOLUME
DELIGHTS AND PREJUDICES,
WHICH WAS HIS FOOD
AUTOBIOGRAPHY.
DO YOU OFTEN THINK OF
WRITING ONE YOURSELF?

Bonnie says I THINK ABOUT IT, AND
SOMETIMES I GO ON KICKS WHERE
I'LL WRITE DOWN ALL THE
INTERESTING STORIES, AND I TRY
TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL THE
INTERESTING STORIES ABOUT THE
RECIPES AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE
SORT OF A FUN THING TO DO.
BUT NOT YET.

Richard says NOT YET.
ALTHOUGH YOU STICK IN STORIES
IN THE MOST UNLIKELY PLACES.
I REMEMBER IN THE REISSUED
BONNIE STERN COOKBOOK,
YOU HAVE ONE RECIPE FOR SOME
BREAKFAST BUNS, AND YOU SAID,
I MADE THESE WHILE
I WAS IN LABOUR.

Bonnie says EVERYONE SEEMS
TO DWELL ON THAT.

Richard says I HAD A LIE DOWN FOR -- WELL,
IT'S A VIVID IMAGE OF YOU
KNEADING THIS DOUGH AND THEN
LYING DOWN ON THE FLOOR EVERY
TEN MINUTES FOR CONTRACTIONS.

[chuckling]

Bonnie says RIGHT.
IT
WAS
VERY VIVID.
IT WAS MORE VIVID BEING THERE.

Richard says NOW, DON'T YOU
THINK THAT'S DRIVEN?
OR WERE YOU DOING IT TO
JUST TAKE YOUR MIND OFF
WHAT WAS AT HAND?

Bonnie says NO, I WAS MAKING BREAKFAST
FOR THE DOCTOR AND MY HUSBAND.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS DOING.
YEAH, IT'S TO TAKE
YOUR MIND OFF THINGS.
I THINK IF YOU REALLY LOVE TO
DO SOMETHING, AND YOU'RE IN A
SITUATION WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU
FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE, IT'S GOOD
DOING SOMETHING FAMILIAR, AND,
YOU KNOW, MAKING STICKY BUNS
WERE REALLY SOMETHING
FAMILIAR FOR ME.

Richard says ARE THERE OTHER TIMES IN YOUR
LIFE, IT'S HARD BECAUSE YOU
COOK FOR A LIVING, AND YOU
TEACH COOKING FOR A LIVING,
BUT ARE THERE FOOD
TALISMANS FOR YOU?
LIKE, I MAKE THIS WHEN I'M
FEELING BAD, AND I WANT TO
CHEER MYSELF UP.
OR THIS IS MY REWARD FOOD?

Bonnie says UM, NO, NOT REALLY.
I LOVE COMFORT FOODS.
I LOVE THAT KIND
OF FOOD THE BEST.
I LOVE SIMPLE FOODS.
WHEN I'M NOT HOME COOKING FOR
MY FAMILY, BESIDES THE FACT
MY KIDS ARE VERY PICKY
EATERS, AND THEY LIKE VERY
SIMPLE FOOD, SO I JUST
MAKE VERY SIMPLE FOODS.
I ENJOY THE TASTE OF
REALLY GOOD QUALITY FOOD.
I DON'T OVERDO THINGS
WHEN WE ARE COOKING IT.
BUT I LOVE PASTA, AND I LOVE
POTATOES, SO I GUESS IF I NEED
COMFORT, THAT KIND OF THING
WOULD BE WHAT I WOULD GO FOR.
STARCHY THINGS.
I LOVE BREAD, I LOVE PASTA.
A PERFECT MEAL WOULD BE BREAD,
PASTA, POTATOES, RISOTTO AND
POLENTA, I COULD JUST BE FINE.
THAT WOULD BE FINE.

Richard says ALL AT ONCE.

Bonnie says ALL AT ONCE.
MENU PLANNING.
VERY BAD MENU PLANNING.

Richard says YES, IT'S OFTEN THIS
CARBOHYDRATE GROUP.
PEOPLE ARE OBVIOUSLY WORKING
AT LOW FAT COOKING AND THINGS,
BUT THERE IS STILL A CERTAIN
ELEMENT OF, I MEAN, YOU EVEN
HAVE, I THINK, ONE OF THE MOST
TELLING LINES IN YOUR NEW
COOKBOOK IS, YOU TALK ABOUT
A WONDERFUL SHEPHERD'S PIE
RECIPE THAT MAUREEN, ONE OF
YOUR ASSISTANTS HAD COME UP
WITH, AND YOU SAY, BUT I SNUCK
SOME CHICK PEAS IN AND SHE
DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE IT.
NOW YOU STILL HAVE TO SNEAK
CHICK PEAS INTO THINGS,
AND SNEAK FIBRE IN?

Bonnie says NO, NO, IT WAS JUST FUNNY
BECAUSE HER TASTE BUDS ARE
REALLY SO ACUTE THAT IT WAS
FUNNY TO BE ABLE TO PUT,
I DIDN'T SNEAK IT IN, I JUST
MADE IT THAT WAY, AND SHE
TASTED IT, AND SHE DIDN'T SAY,
DO YOU HAVE CHICK PEAS IN HERE?
WHICH IS RARE FOR HER BECAUSE
SHE HAS SUCH INCREDIBLE
TASTE BUDS.
AND I GUESS I TOLD THAT STORY
SO PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE
CHICK PEAS COULD TRY THE
RECIPE, AND NOT FEEL PEOPLE
WERE GOING TO NOTICE THE
CHICK PEAS WERE IN THERE.
SO I THINK, IN SOME CASES,
YES, YOU STILL HAVE TO PUT
THINGS IN MAYBE THAT PEOPLE
WOULDN'T LIKE THE NAME OF.
YOU KNOW, IT'S TOO BAD,
BUT IT'S STILL THERE THAT
EVERYBODY DOESN'T
HAVE AN OPEN MIND.
AND I DON'T THINK IT'S SO MUCH
JUST WITH LOW FAT COOKING, I
THINK IT'S WITH ANY COOKING,
YOU KNOW, THAT EVERYBODY
DOESN'T LIKE THE SOUND
OF EVERY KIND OF DISH.

Richard says I ALWAYS TELL MY CHILDREN
THAT SOMETHING IS KIND OF LIKE
CHICKEN, RIGHT?
IT'S KIND OF LIKE PASTA.
I MUST TELL YOU THE
ACID TEST IS WHEN I TOOK
MORE HEART SMART COOKING
HOME, AND I DECIDED TO GO
AND TRY THE RECIPES OUT
BEFORE I TALKED TO YOU.
AND I DID A BATTERY OF THEM FOR
THE FAMILY OVER THE WEEKEND.
WE DID YOUR CHICKEN MEATLOAF,
AND THE LEMON POLENTA
WAFFLES, WHICH ARE AGAIN
SOMETHING I DIDN'T TELL THE
CHILDREN WHAT WAS IN THEM,
AND THEY ATE THEM GLADLY.
YOU SUGGEST CALLING THEM
SUNSHINE WAFFLES OR SOMETHING
LIKE THAT.
THE THING I'VE BEEN FINDING
IN THE BOOK, AND ALSO THE
RISOTTO WITH RAPINI, THESE
ARE GREAT RECIPES, BUT THEY
DON'T HAVE THAT AWFUL LOW FAT
COOKBOOK FEEL ABOUT THEM.

Bonnie says WELL, IF THEY DID, THEY
WOULDN'T BE IN MY COOKBOOK.

Richard says HOW DO YOU ACCOMPLISH THE BALANCE?

Bonnie says I THINK IT COMES FROM
A DIFFERENT BACKGROUND.
YOU KNOW, I DO COME FROM A
CHEF TRAINING BACKGROUND WHERE
THE PRIME GOAL OF FOOD, AND
IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEND THE
TIME COOKING IT, AND SPEND THE
MONEY ON THE INGREDIENTS, AND
SPEND THE TIME FINDING THE
INGREDIENTS, I MEAN, I HAVE A
GREAT DEAL OF RESPECT FOR
PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO COOK.
AND I WANT TO PROTECT THEM.
I WANT TO MAKE SURE, AS MUCH
AS I CAN, AND YOU CAN'T
ALWAYS -- THAT'S WHY I'M SO
RELIEVED EVERYTHING TURNED OUT
SO NICELY -- BUT YOU CAN'T
ALWAYS SWEAR WHEN A HUNDRED
THOUSAND PEOPLE GET A RECIPE
THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO
COME OUT EXACTLY RIGHT.
BUT AS FAR AS I KNOW, AS FAR
AS I'M CONCERNED, WHEN I PUT
A RECIPE DOWN, IT'S GOING TO
WORK, AND IT'S GOING TO BE
DELICIOUS, ACCORDING
TO MY TASTE.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE ONLY
THING I CAN GUARANTEE.
IT WOULDN'T BE IN THE BOOK IF
I DIDN'T WANT TO SIT DOWN AND
EAT IT, AND IF I DIDN'T THINK
IT WAS GOING TO WORTH THE
EFFORT COOKING.
AND I COME FROM A CHEF
TRAINING BACKGROUND WHERE
DELICIOUS WAS THE GOAL.
DELICIOUS
IS
THE GOAL.
AND IF IT ISN'T GOING
TO BE DELICIOUS, WHY ARE
YOU GOING TO DO IT?
AND THE SAME THING HOLDS
TRUE WITH LOW FAT COOKING.
I DON'T THINK LOW FAT
COOKING IS REALLY THAT NEW.
20 YEARS AGO, 30 YEARS AGO, 40
YEARS AGO, EVEN WHEN YOU WENT
TO A RESTAURANT AND THE FOOD
WAS VERY RICH BECAUSE THAT'S
THE FOOD THEY FELT RIGHT
CHARGING A LOT OF MONEY FOR,
THAT WAS KIND OF CELEBRATION
FOOD, THERE WAS STILL FOOD
YOU ATE EVERY DAY
THAT WASN'T RICH.
PEOPLE ALL DIDN'T WEIGH
3,000 POUNDS 40 YEARS AGO.
BUT I THINK, IN THE '80s,
ESPECIALLY, PEOPLE GOT THE
IDEA YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO,
HERE WE ARE, LIVING IN THE
GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD,
THE RICHEST TYPE OF COUNTRY,
WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO EAT
EVERYTHING WE WANT, WHENEVER
WE WANT IT, NO MATTER HOW
RICH IT IS, AND IF WE MAKE
A CHOCOLATE CAKE, WE SHOULD
BE ABLE TO EAT THE ENTIRE
CHOCOLATE CAKE,
THREE MEALS A DAY.
WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?
I MEAN, WHO ARE WE?
CHOCOLATE CAKE IS FOR
SPECIAL OCCASIONS.
YOU EAT IT FOR A
SPECIAL OCCASION.
YOU EAT A SMALL PIECE.
THERE'S NOTHING
WRONG WITH THAT.
BUT SOMEHOW WE
JUST OVERDID IT.
THE WAY WE OVERDID EXERCISE,
THE WAY WE OVERDID EVERYTHING
THAT KIND OF HAPPENS.
AND I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO
STAND BACK AND KIND OF LOOK
AT IT AND EAT MOSTLY
HEALTHFUL FOOD.
BUT IF YOU STILL WANT A TREAT,
YOU KNOW, HAVE A TREAT,
BUT JUST DON'T HAVE TOO MUCH OF
IT, AND DON'T HAVE IT TOO OFTEN.

Richard says I THINK THAT'S
A GREAT SLOGAN.
MODERATION IN ALL THINGS,
EXCEPT DELICIOUSNESS.

Bonnie says YES, WELL...

Richard says BONNIE STERN, THANK
YOU FOR PREACHING IT
AND FOR PRACTISING
WHAT YOU PREACH.

Bonnie says WELL, IT WAS WONDERFUL TO BE
HERE AND A TREAT NOT TO BE
COOKING AT THE SAME TIME.

Richard says THAT'S GREAT.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

He faces the screen and says
MORE HEART SMART COOKING
IS PUBLISHED BY RANDOM HOUSE.
IT'S BY BONNIE STERN, AND
I RECOMMEND IT HIGHLY.
FOR
DIALOGUE, I'M
RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
GOOD-BYE FOR NOW.

Music plays as the end slate reads “Dialogue.”

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Bonnie Stern