Transcript: Show #89 | Mar 23, 1997

The opening sequence rolls.
In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.
Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS
WEEK, TAKING STOCK.
ARE YOU STILL SO DAMN
CONFIDENT THAT YOU KNOW
WHAT'S BEST FOR
THIS PROVINCE?

A clip shows Steve sitting down in an interview with a man in his fifties. It’s Mike Harris.

Mike says
I CERTAINLY DON'T
KNOW WHAT'S BEST.
WE CONTINUE
TO CONSULT.
I THINK THE KEY IS
ARE YOU PREPARED
TO FOLLOW
THE ADVICE?
ARE YOU PREPARED TO IGNORE
THE LOUD, SQUEAKY,
WHINING VOICES THAT
HAVE BENEFITED FROM
11 BILLION DOLLAR DEFICITS AND FROM
STIFLING THIS PROVINCE?

Steve says PREMIER MIKE HARRIS
ASSESSES HIS GOVERNMENT
AT MID-TERM.

(music plays)

Steve and three guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a grey suit over a grey shirt.

He says
GOOD SUNDAY AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY.
STEVE PAIKIN HERE
WITH ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4th READING
COMING YOUR WAY.
THE WAY MIKE HARRIS'
CONSERVATIVES
HAVE SHAKEN UP ONTARIO,
YOU'D SWEAR THEY'D BEEN
IN POWER FOR A
DECADE ALREADY.
IN FACT, THE TORIES
HAVEN'T EVEN HIT
THE TWO-YEAR
MARK YET.
THAT COMES IN JUNE.
BUT THE CHANGES SO FAR
HAVE BEEN UNPRECEDENTED.
THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION SEEMED TO HAVE
THE MAJORITY OF
ONTARIANS ON SIDE,
AT LEAST UNTIL
THE MEGACITY,
AND PROPERTY TAX
DOWNLOADING AND
CLOSING MANY, MANY
HOSPITALS ALL CAME ALONG.
ALL SUBJECTS FOR DISCUSSION
WITH MIKE HARRIS.
HERE IS OUR CONVERSATION
WITH THE PREMIER
OF ONTARIO, FROM HIS
QUEEN'S PARK OFFICE.

A clip on screen plays Steve’s interview. Mike’s in his fifties. He has short grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a light blue shirt, contrasting tie and dark trousers.

Steve says
PREMIER, THANKS FOR
SPARING SOME TIME WITH US.
WE APPRECIATE IT.

Mike says THANK YOU
VERY MUCH.

Steve says
AFTER THE DEFEAT AT THE
POLLS IN THE REFERENDUMS
OVER THE MEGACITY,
AND AFTER THE UPROAR
OF THE DOWNLOADING OF
COSTS ON SOCIAL PROGRAMS,
ONE COULD, I THINK,
REASONABLY ASK
THE QUESTION WHETHER OR
NOT THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION IS GOING
A BIT OFF THE RAILS.
THE STUFF YOU
CAMPAIGNED ON,
THE STUFF THAT'S DETAILED
IN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION YOU SEEMED
TO DO WELL WITH.
THIS STUFF,
BIG PROBLEMS.
IS THAT A
FAIR COMMENT?

Mike says
I THINK THE THINGS
THAT WE'RE DOING NOW
ARE ACTUALLY IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
BUT THEY'RE
NOT DETAILED:
WE WILL DO THIS,
WE'LL DO THAT.
WE'LL HAVE FEWER
POLITICIANS, WE SAID.
WE WANT TO
SPEND SMARTER.
WE WANT TO DO
THINGS DIFFERENT.
WE WANT TO LEARN
HOW TO DISENTANGLE
WHO'S DOING THINGS.
AND SO I THINK IT'S
ALL PART OF THE PROCESS.
IT'S VERY SIGNIFICANT
CHANGE FROM THE
STATUS QUO, BUT I STILL
HEAR FROM EVERYBODY,
MAYBE EXCEPT JOHN SEWELL,
THAT THE STATUS QUO IS NOT
WORKING VERY WELL.
IT'S THE STATUS QUO
THAT GAVE US A FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT WITH 30
BILLION DOLLAR DEFICITS AND
A PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
WITH 11 BILLION DOLLAR DEFICITS
AND A DECLINING AND
DETERIORATING SERVICE.

Steve says
BUT THE DIFFERENCE
IS, THOUGH,
THAT YOU SPENT A
YEAR AND A HALF.
YOU WENT TO
CHURCH BASEMENTS.
YOU WROTE THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION AFTER
HEARING FROM PEOPLE,
AND WHEN IT CAME TO
ELIMINATING THE
ANTI-STRIKE BREAKER LAW,
YOU DID IT AND THE
PEOPLE WERE WITH YOU.
YOU GOT RID OF
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY.
YOU DID IT AND THE
POLLS SHOWED
THE PEOPLE
WERE WITH YOU.
THE PEOPLE AREN'T
WITH YOU ON THIS.

Mike says WELL, NO.
I DON'T ACCEPT THAT THE
PEOPLE AREN'T WITH ME.
I THINK THE PEOPLE SAID
WE'RE NOT QUITE SURE
HOW THIS TIES
TOGETHER.
WE WANT YOU TO
TAKE YOUR TIME.
WE WANT YOU TO
GET IT RIGHT.
MOST OF THE POLLS TELL
US THAT QUITE FRANKLY
THE PEOPLE DO UNDERSTAND
THAT WE NEED CHANGE.
THEY WANT TO MAKE
SURE IT'S CHANGE FOR
THE BETTER, THAT IT'S
POSITIVE CHANGE.

Steve says I GUESS THEY SAID
THIS WAS NOT CHANGE
FOR THE BETTER
THOUGH, DIDN'T THEY?

Mike says WELL, NO.
I THINK, IF YOU LOOK
AT THE REFERENDUM,
I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYBODY,
INCLUDING THOSE THAT
PARTICIPATED AND RAN
IT THAT CALLED IT
A REFERENDUM OR A
LEGITIMATE FAIR REFERENDUM.

Steve says PLEBISCITE.

Mike continues
WELL, THEY DIDN'T
PRETEND THAT IT WAS,
BUT THEY WANTED TO
SEND US A MESSAGE.
AND SOME WANTED US TO SEND
A MESSAGE ON ONE THING,
SOME ON ANOTHER,
SOME ON ANOTHER.
IT WAS KIND OF LIKE THE
CHARLOTTETOWN ACCORD.
YOU MIGHT HAVE LIKED
99 PERCENT OF IT,
EVERYBODY, BUT EACH PIECE
HAD THEIR ONE PERCENT
AND HERE WAS A CHANCE
TO SEND A MESSAGE.
SO WE'VE TRIED TO
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY,
WHAT IT IS PEOPLE
WERE SAYING.
AND I THINK IT WAS,
WHAT, 25 PERCENT
OF THE 75 PERCENT
WHO VOTED.
I MEAN, I RUN
INTO PEOPLE

Steve says WELL,
BUT HANG ON.
YOU GOT 45 PERCENT OF THE
65 PERCENT WHO VOTED
IN AN ELECTION, AND
YOU'RE LEGITIMATE,
SO I DON'T KNOW
WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

Mike says
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN 65 AND...
WHAT ISN'T LEGITIMATE
IS THAT EVERY POLL
THAT IS FAR
MORE LEGITIMATE,
ACCURATE 19
TIMES OUT OF 20,
EVERYTHING ELSE,
SAYS THAT, IN FACT,
THE MAJORITY AGREE, ONE
CITY'S MORE EFFICIENT,
MORE EFFECTIVE
THAN SIX.
BUT ONE CITY
WITH DOWNLOADING,
IF TAXES GO UP,
IF THIS HAPPENS,
IF MY HOSPITAL
CLOSES, IF MY KIDS
ARE GOING TO HAVE
THEIR CLASS SIZE
GO UP FIVE TIMES
WHICH WAS WHAT
ALL THE OPPONENTS
SAID.
HEY, ARE YOU CONCERNED
THAT YOUR KID'S CLASS
HAS GONE FROM
25 TO 30?
VOTE NO.
HERE'S A
LITTLE OPPORTUNITY.
SO THAT'S WHAT WE HAD TO
LISTEN TO AND WHEN WE DID,
I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER
OF THINGS WE'RE PREPARED
TO MAKE CHANGES,
TO RESPOND TO THAT.
THERE WERE A LOT OF
THINGS THAT WERE
BADLY MISUNDERSTOOD.

Steve says BUT THE
MEGACITY IS STILL ON.

Mike says NO, I DON'T KNOW
WHY PEOPLE CALL IT
A MEGACITY.

Steve says OKAY, THE
ONE TORONTO.
THE ONE LARGER
TORONTO IS STILL ON.

Mike says
WHAT IS STILL ON IS
FAR FEWER POLITICIANS,
FAR MORE DISENTANGLEMENT,
FAR MORE ACCOUNTABILITY,
AND WHERE THERE ARE
SAVINGS BY MOVING SERVICES
TO ONE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT
INSTEAD OF SEVEN,
WE NEED TO PURSUE THOSE
AND FIND THE RIGHT WAY
OF DOING IT, AND THAT'S
WHAT WE'RE TAKING OUR TIME
NOW TO DO IT RIGHT.

Steve says DO YOU FIND
IT IRONIC THAT YOU
HAVE ENERGIZED THE
LEFT IN A WAY THAT
COULDN'T HAVE BEEN
DONE HAD YOU DECIDED
NOT TO MAKE ONE
BIG TORONTO?
I MEAN, LOOK AT THE
GRASSROOTS POLITICS
YOU'VE GOT STARTED.
PROBABLY NOT WHAT YOU
WANTED, BUT IT'S HAPPENED.

Mike says I THINK THAT PEOPLE
ARE GETTING INVOLVED.
I THINK THAT'S
A GOOD THING.
I HOPE VOTER TURNOUT IN THE
CIVIC ELECTIONS THIS FALL
ARE HIGHER THAN THE 25
OR 30 PERCENT WE HAVE.
IN NORTH BAY, WE HAD
60, 70 PERCENT OUT.
I THINK TORONTO'S SO FED
UP WITH THE PROCESS HERE
THAT THAT'S ONE OF
THE REASONS TURNOUTS,
YOU KNOW, ARE LOW.
BUT LET ME PUT IT
INTO PERSPECTIVE.
I DON'T WANT TO
DIMINISH FOR A SECOND.
I DON'T WANT
TO DIMINISH.
WE'RE LISTENING.
WE'RE TAKING
OUR TIME.
WE'RE MAKING
CHANGES.
THE NIGHT OF THE SO-CALLED
REFERENDUM THERE WAS
A BIG CELEBRATION WITH
2,000 OR 3,000 PEOPLE
AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
BUT DOWN THE STREET,
THERE WERE 12,000
FOR THE OPENING OF
PLANET HOLLYWOOD.
SO IT DIDN'T QUITE
TAKE THE CITY BY STORM.
BUT IT WAS SIGNIFICANT IN
THAT THERE WERE A NUMBER
OF MESSAGES THAT WE
HEARD IN THE HEARINGS,
THAT WE HEARD IN OUR OWN
CONSULTATIONS THAT WERE
IN THE POLLS THAT I THINK
WERE FAIRLY ACCURATE.

Steve says I GUESS
JOHN SEWELL IS
NOT QUITE ARNOLD
SCHWARZENEGGER.

Mike says
WELL, THAT'S TRUE.
BUT I THINK THE
MESSAGE IS CLEAR.
THEY UNDERSTAND WE
HAVE TO MAKE CHANGES.
I THINK THAT BY AND LARGE
WE GET A TREMENDOUS
SUPPORT FOR HAVING
THE COURAGE TO TACKLE
THE STATUS QUO.
BUT THEY WANT US TO MAKE
SURE WE GET IT RIGHT AND
TAKE OUR TIME, AND WE RE
DETERMINED TO DO THAT.

Steve says
LET ME ASK YOU
A DIRECT QUESTION
AND YOU GIVE ME A
DIRECT ANSWER,
AND I KNOW
YOU WILL.
YOU SAID DURING THE
ELECTION CAMPAIGN
YOU HAD NO PLANS TO
CLOSE HOSPITALS AND
WE NOW KNOW THAT
THERE ARE HOSPITALS
THAT ARE GOING TO
CLOSE EVERYWHERE.
HAVE YOU BROKEN
YOUR PROMISE?

Mike says
NO, I DON'T THINK SO.
AT LEAST, I HAD NO PLANS
TO CLOSE HOSPITALS
WHEN WE WERE
CAMPAIGNING.
WE WERE QUITE CLEAR
ON HEALTH CARE THAT
WE DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF
DETAILED POLICY IN HEALTH CARE,
THAT WE FELT WE WERE
GOING TO HAVE TO,
IF WE WERE SUCCESSFUL,
AND FORMED THE GOVERNMENT
AND GOT ELECTED ON THE
AGENDA THAT WE TALKED ABOUT,
THAT WE WERE GOING
TO HAVE TO SEE WHERE
THE STATUS QUO WAS,
CONSULT WITH THOSE,
AWAIT THE REPORT
THAT BOB RAE HAD
ON HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING,
AND CERTAINLY
THERE WAS NOTHING
THAT WE HAD LAID OUT
OR ANY SECRET AGENDA
OR ANY PLAN TO DEAL
WITH MORE HOSPITALS
OR FEWER HOSPITALS.
BUT WHAT WE
SAID WAS THIS.
AND THIS IS
WHAT'S IMPORTANT.
IF YOU PULL LITTLE
THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT
YOU CAN GET ALL
KINDS OF QUOTES.
WHAT WE SAID
WAS THIS.
WHEN IT CAME TO
HEALTH CARE,
WE SAID, NO, WE HAVEN'T
LOOKED AT THAT.
WE KNOW THERE
ARE STUDIES THERE.
WE'LL WAIT FOR
THOSE STUDIES.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY PLANS
AND NOTHING IN THERE,
BUT WHAT WE
SAID IS THIS.
EVERY PENNY THAT WE CAN
SAVE IN HEALTH CARE AND
WE THINK THERE ARE
SAVINGS TO BE FOUND
WE WILL REINVEST
IN HEALTH CARE,
AND THAT'S THE COMMITMENT
THAT WE MADE.
THAT'S THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION COMMITMENT.
THAT'S THE CAMPAIGN
COMMITMENT.
WHEN WE CAMPAIGNED THE DAY
WE SPENT ON HEALTH CARE
WE WENT TO LONDON AND SAID
WE'RE GOING TO CUT A LOT
OF MONEY OUT OF THIS
HOSPITAL HERE IN LONDON,
BUT WE'RE GOING TO
REINVEST IT BACK
INTO AREAS THAT
NEED SUPPORT.

Steve says
BUT YOUR CRITICS
ARE TELLING ME THAT
YOU'RE TRYING TO
HAVE IT BOTH WAYS,
BECAUSE THEY'RE SAYING
YOU'VE SETTLED THIS
HEALTH CARE RESTRUCTURING
COMMISSION, WHICH
IS MAKING THE FINAL
DECISIONS APPARENTLY ON
WHAT HOSPITALS TO KEEP OPEN
AND WHICH ONES TO CLOSE.
AND YET ON THE OTHER HAND,
YOUR MINISTER OF HEALTH
IS SAYING RURAL
ONTARIO'S SPECIAL.
WE MIGHT NEED TO TAKE
A SECOND LOOK AT THAT.
WE MIGHT NEED A
SPECIAL POLICY ON THAT.
THAT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE
YOU'RE SAYING THEY'VE GOT
THE FINAL WORD, BUT
IN AN AREA WHERE
WE JUST SO HAPPENED
TO WIN ALL THE VOTES
LAST TIME,
YOU'RE RIGHT.
WE MIGHT NEED
A SECOND LOOK.

Mike says
THE RESTRUCTURING COMMISSION
CAME ABOUT BECAUSE
THE BOB RAE COMMITTEE
THAT HE HAD APPOINTED
AND THE DISTRICT HEALTH
COUNCILS RECOMMENDED
A BUNCH OF HOSPITALS
CLOSE, AND WE SAID,
WELL, OKAY.
HOW ARE WE
GOING TO DO THIS?
SHOULD WE DO IT OR SHOULD
WE HIRE OR GET INVOLVED
AND DOCTOR SINCLAIR'S
A BUCK A YEAR,
SO THAT WAS A PRETTY GOOD
HIRE BY THE WAY...

Steve says SOMETIMES THEY SAY
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Mike says
WHEN WE ANNOUNCED
THAT DUNCAN SINCLAIR
WOULD HEAD THE HOSPITAL
RESTRUCTURING COMMISSION
WE WERE APPLAUDED
BY OUR CRITICS,
BY THE LIBERALS,
BY THE NDP.
THEY SAID YES,
THEY'VE GOT THE BEST.
THEY'VE GOT THE
BRIGHTEST AND...

Steve says I'M BEING
FACETIOUS.
HE'S AN
HONOURABLE MAN.

Mike says
I THINK HE IS, AND HE
WAS WELL RECEIVED
BY THE HOSPITAL
ASSOCIATION, AND
HE KNOWS MORE ABOUT
HOSPITALS THAN I DO...

Steve says BUT YOU'RE NOT
TRYING TO HAVE IT BOTH
WAYS BY SAYING
SPECIAL INTEREST...

Mike says
NO, WE ARE ENTITLED
TO MAKE POLICY
AND HE HAS TO
RESPECT THAT.
AND TO DATE, HE HAS NOT
DEALT WITH RURAL ONTARIO.
A LOT OF THE FOOFARAW
OVER RURAL ONTARIO
CAME FROM THE DISTRICT
HEALTH COUNCIL
IN GREY AND BRUCE USING
THE OLD '92 NDP CRITERIA
LONG BEFORE THE
RESTRUCTURING COMMISSION
HASN'T EVEN LOOKED
AT THOSE YET.
AND THE RESTRUCTURING
COMMISSION SAID CLEARLY,
WE UNDERSTAND IT'S
DIFFERENT IN RURAL ONTARIO
THAN IT IS IN
URBAN ONTARIO.
I MEAN, PEOPLE MOVE
TO NORTHERN ONTARIO.
THEY UNDERSTAND THEY'RE
NOT GOING TO BE 15 MINUTES
FROM A HOSPITAL IF
THEY'RE IN A LITTLE TOWN
OR A LITTLE ISOLATED
COMMUNITY.
SO IT IS DIFFERENT, AND THE
RESTRUCTURING COMMISSION
SAID, WE NEED TO GET A
HANDLE ON WHAT THAT IS.
IF WE APPLIED THE SAME
CRITERIA TO RURAL ONTARIO,
WE'D HAVE TO BUILD
ANOTHER 150 HOSPITALS,
AND NOT EVEN RURAL ONTARIO
IS ASKING FOR THAT.

Steve says
FEDERAL POLITICS.
JEAN CHAREST MADE A BIG
SPLASH EARLIER THIS WEEK.
HE COMES OUT WITH
HIS BIG ANNOUNCEMENT,
AND YOU KNOW WHAT
QUESTION IS COMING.
EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW IS
MIKE HARRIS GOING TO GET
OUT THERE AND CAMPAIGN
FOR JEAN CHAREST?
WILL HE ENDORSE
JEAN CHAREST?
IS HE THREATENED BY
PRESTON MANNING'S
COMING OUT THE OTHER
DAY AND SAYING
YOU BETTER NOT CAMPAIGN FOR
OR ENDORSE JEAN CHAREST.

Mike says
I THINK YOU WOULD KNOW
BY NOW THAT NOBODY
THREATENS ME.

Steve says WELL, HE
THREATENED YOU.
WHETHER YOU TOOK IT AS
THAT IS ANOTHER THING.

Mike says
I ALWAYS STATE MY OPINION
AND STATE MY MIND
AND GO WITH THE FACTS,
AND WHAT I SAID
FOR THE FEDERAL
ELECTION IS THIS.
THAT I FELT IT WAS
IMPORTANT FOR
THE PREMIER OF ONTARIO
REPRESENTING ALL OF THE PEOPLE
AND MANY PEOPLE IN OUR
RIDING ASSOCIATIONS
I WOULD SAY THE MOST
ARE PC FEDERALLY
BUT THERE ARE A
LOT OF LIBERALS.
I MEAN, LET'S FACE IT.
THERE'S A LOT OF OVERLAP
BETWEEN FEDERAL LIBERALS
AND PROVINCIAL
CONSERVATIVES
OR I WOULDN'T BE IN THIS
OFFICE TALKING TO YOU TODAY.

Steve says YOU GOT THE LIBERAL
SWITCHERS VOTING FOR YOU.

Mike says
I HAVE A FEW
NDPs, NOT AS MANY,
AND WE HAVE REFORM
VOTERS THAT ARE THERE,
AND I MADE A COMMITMENT
THAT I FELT THE BEST THING
THAT I COULD DO AS
PREMIER OF ONTARIO
WAS TO FREE EVERYBODY
WHO WORKS FOR US
AND PART OF OUR PARTY,
PART OF OUR ORGANIZATION,
TO SUPPORT WHO YOU THINK
YOU SHOULD SUPPORT.
AND THAT I PERSONALLY
WOULD SUPPORT POLICIES
THAT I THINK ARE GOOD
FOR ALL OF ONTARIO.

Steve says SO YOU WON'T BE
CAMPAIGNING WITH CHAREST.

Mike says
I'M NOT CAMPAIGNING
DIRECTLY FOR ANY PARTY
OR ANY LEADER.

Steve says BUT IF HE SAYS
SOMETHING YOU LIKE,
YOU'LL SAY SO.

Mike says
I THOUGHT HIS PLATFORM
THAT HE ANNOUNCED
YESTERDAY FOR THE MOST
PART WAS VERY POSITIVE.
ON THE MOST IMPORTANT
AREAS -- JOBS.
AND I'LL TELL YOU THAT
THIS IS WHAT'S MISSING IN
THE FEDERAL LIBERAL
PLATFORM RIGHT NOW.
THEY'RE BALANCING
THE BOOKS.
THEY'RE MOVING ALONG
IN THAT DIRECTION.
BUT JOB CREATION
IS MISSING,
AND WHEN IT DOES
COME UP, IT'S THROW
SOME MONEY AT IT.
TAX CUTS WILL CREATE MORE
JOBS QUICKER, FASTER, THAN
ANYTHING THAT CAN BE
DONE IN THE PROVINCE.
YOU DON'T CUT TAXES TO
GIVE MONEY BACK TO PEOPLE.
IN FACT, USUALLY
YOU GET MORE BACK.
WE'RE GETTING MORE MONEY
IN PERSONAL INCOME TAX
THAN WE HAD BEFORE
WE CUT THE RATES.
BUT IT IS A GREAT STIMULUS
AND A JOB CREATOR,
AND I THINK IF IT TAKES
ONE YEAR LONGER TO BALANCE
THE BUDGET, I THINK IT'S
WORTH IT TO STIMULATE
JOB CREATION, AND I LIKE
WHAT CHAREST SAID ON THAT.

Steve says SO IF MANNING OFFERS
DOUBLE THE TAX CUTS,
WOULD YOU ENDORSE
THAT TWICE AS HARD?

Mike says I ENDORSE
TAX REDUCTIONS
IF THEY'RE BALANCED, IF
THEY'RE THOUGHTFUL,
IF THEY TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT THE DEFICIT
AND TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT PROGRAMS.
I MEAN, WE WORKED
HARD, FOUR YEARS ON
OUR DOCUMENT ON
WHAT YOU WOULD CUT
AND IN WHAT AREAS AND
THE RIGHT BALANCE.
AND WE TOOK A YEAR LONGER
TO BALANCE OUR BOOKS
THAN DID THE
LIBERALS.
THEY CAMPAIGNED
ON FOUR YEARS.
THE NDP THREE YEARS.
THEY PROMISED THREE.
YOU TELL ME HOW THEY
WERE GOING TO DO THAT,
AND KEEP ALL THE SPENDING
THEY TELL US TO DO.
WE SAID FIVE YEARS BECAUSE
WHILE WE FULLY EXPECT
TO GET MORE MONEY BACK
AFTER REDUCING TAXES,
WE THINK IT MIGHT TAKE
A YEAR OR 18 MONTHS,
OR TWO YEARS
IN SOME CASES,
FOR ALL OF THAT
TO KICK IN,
AND I THINK IT WILL, BUT I
THINK JOBS WILL KICK IN.
I THINK THE ECONOMY
WILL IMPROVE.
I THINK OUR REVENUES
WILL GO UP.

Steve says DO YOU
KNOW WHEN?
I KNOW THE REVENUES ARE
UP EVEN THOUGH THE TAX CUT
THEORETICALLY SHOULD
BRING IN LESS,
I GUESS.
IS THE TAX CUT
REALLY CREATING JOBS,
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
YOU'RE BEHIND ON YOUR
OWN PROJECTIONS.

Mike says NO, WE'RE NOT.
IN THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION,
WE TOOK A FIVE
YEAR PERIOD.

Steve says
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
BE AT 290,000 NOW.

Mike says NO, WE'RE NOT
SUPPOSED AT TWO
WE MIGHT NOT HAVE HAD
ANY IN FOUR YEARS
IF WE HAD 725 ALL
IN THE FIFTH.
WE SAID OVER FIVE YEARS
THIS IS WHAT WE BELIEVED
WOULD BE CREATED
IN NEW JOBS.
AND WE ARE CREATING
SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER
OF NEW JOBS.
BY THE SAME TOKEN,
WE'RE ALSO LOSING MORE
THAN WE'D
LIKE TO LOSE.
NOW, WE KNEW WE'D LOSE SOME
IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
THE FEDS ARE CUTTING BACK
IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
OR IN THE PUBLIC
SECTOR, SORRY.
SO ARE SOME OF
OUR PARTNERS,
AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT.
THERE'S NO QUESTION
WE'RE CREATING SUBSTANTIAL
NEW JOBS.
BUT EVEN ON A NET
BASIS, IN 1996,
WE HAD, I THINK, 60
OR 65 PERCENT,
OR 55 PERCENT OF
THE NEW JOBS IN ALL
OF CANADA IN MANUFACTURING,
IN SOME OF THE KEY AREAS...

Steve says SO ARE THE
TAX CUTS WORKING?

Mike says SURE IT IS.
IT'S GIVING
IT'S HELPING.
IT'S NOT PERFECT.
I MEAN, IN SOME CASES,
THE FEDS ARE TIGHT.
INCREASING THEIR
TAXES AND ALL IT'S DOING
IS NEUTRALIZING
THE EFFECT,
WHICH IS A GOOD THING
BECAUSE WITHOUT IT,
WE WOULD HAVE
LOST A LOT OF JOBS.
I MEAN HIGHER TAXES
RIGHT NOW KILLS JOBS.
LOWER TAXES HELPS
TO CREATE THEM.
TO A CERTAIN POINT.
TO A CERTAIN POINT.

Steve says PREMIER, YOUR PRESS
SECRETARY'S GIVING ME
THE HOOK, SO I'M GOING TO
ASK ONE LAST RATHER
TOUCHY-FEELY QUESTION,
IF YOU DON'T MIND.
WHEN YOU PUT YOUR HEAD ON
THE PILLOW AT THE END
OF THE DAY, ARE YOU STILL
SO DAMN CONFIDENT THAT
YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST
FOR THIS PROVINCE?

Mike says
I'M CONFIDENT THAT THE
STATUS QUO HAD TO BE
CHANGED.
THAT IT WOULD TAKE COURAGE
AND TOUGH DECISIONS
TO GET US TO A BETTER
TOMORROW, AND
I'M VERY CONFIDENT WE'RE
ON TRACK TO DO THAT.
BUT IT'S NOT EASY.
I CERTAINLY DON'T
KNOW WHAT'S BEST.
WE CONTINUE TO CONSULT
DUNCAN SINCLAIR
AND THE EXPERTS IN
THE MEDICAL FIELD
TO GIVE US
ADVICE THERE.
THOSE WHO KNOW FAR
BETTER THAN I DO HOW
LOCAL GOVERNMENT WORKS,
THOSE WHO KNOW FAR BETTER
THAN I DO IN THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM,
AND EVEN AREAS WHERE I
HAVE SOME EXPERTISE.
THERE ARE ALWAYS
MANY BRIGHTER THAN I
AND WILL KNOW
MORE THAN I.
I THINK THE KEY IS DO YOU
KNOW HOW TO ACCESS THEM?
DO YOU KNOW HOW TO
CONSULT WITH THEM?
ARE YOU PREPARED TO
FOLLOW THE ADVICE?
ARE YOU PREPARED TO
IGNORE THE LOUD, SQUEAKY,
WHINING VOICES THAT
HAVE BENEFITED FROM
11 BILLION DOLLAR DEFICITS AND
FROM STIFLING THIS PROVINCE?
AND I AM CONFIDENT WE'RE
ON TRACK FOR A FAR BETTER
AND BRIGHTER TOMORROW IN
THIS PROVINCE THAN WE WERE
BEFORE WE
TOOK OFFICE.

Steve says THANK YOU
FOR YOUR TIME.
APPRECIATE IT.

Mike says THANK YOU, STEVE.

The clip ends. Back in the studio, Steve says
LET US FOLLOW UP ON
OUR CONVERSATION WITH
THE PREMIER WITH OUR OWN
QUEEN'S PARK OBSERVERS
AND HERE THEY
ARE THIS WEEK.
RICHARD JOHNSTON,
FORMER NDP MEMBER
OF THE LEGISLATURE,
NOW THE PRESIDENT OF
THE FIRST NATION'S
TECHNICAL INSTITUTE.
RICHARD MAHONEY
IS HERE FROM
THE OTTAWA LAW FIRM OF
FRASER AND BEATTY,
FORMER PRESIDENT OF
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS,
AND SENIOR CONSERVATIVE
PARTY ADVISOR, HUGH SEGAL.
AND WELCOME BACK
TO ONE AND ALL.
LET'S GO ON THAT
THEORY I ADVANCED
AT THE VERY BEGINNING
OF THE INTERVIEW WITH
THE PREMIER, WHICH IS THAT
THE STUFF THAT'S OUTLINED IN
THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION IN CHAPTER
AND VERSE, THEY'VE
DONE PRETTY WELL ON.
I THINK EVERYBODY
HAS TO ADMIT THAT.
THEY DID STUFF.
THEY TOOK DECISIONS.
THE PUBLIC ENDORSED
THEM FOR THE MOST PART.
THE NEWER STUFF THAT'S
COME ALONG SUBSEQUENT
TO THAT: MEGACITY,
HOSPITAL CLOSURES.
STUFF THAT'S NOT IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.
LOTS OF STUMBLES.
IS THAT A FAIR
ANALYSIS, HUGH?

A caption on screen reads "Hugh Segal. Progressive Conservative Advisor." He’s in his fifties. He has short straight brown hair parted to the side and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark suit, white shirt, a contrasting red tie and glasses.

He says
I THINK IT'S FAIR TO
SAY THAT WHEN YOU GET
INTO THE DETAIL OF A
DIRECTIONAL POLICY
THAT EVERYBODY MAY
ENDORSE, THE DETAIL WILL,
BY DEFINITION, BE DIVISIVE
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE
SPECIFIC TACTICAL
DECISIONS IN PUBLIC POLICY
WITHOUT SOMEBODY'S OX
BEING GORED IN SOME WAY
OR ANOTHER.
THE CRITICAL QUESTION
NOW AND THE JURY'S
OUT ON THIS IS THE
FINESSE WITH WHICH
THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT
READS THE TEA LEAVES
ABOUT THE TACTICS AND
SOME OF THE DETAIL
AND ARE PREPARED TO MAKE
SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE,
STAYING ON THE DIRECTION
WHICH THEY THINK
HAS PUBLIC ENDORSATION,
BUT MAKE THOSE CHANGES
THAT MAKE PEOPLE COMFORTABLE,
AS THE PREMIER HIMSELF SAID,
THAT THEY ARE MAKING
THE RIGHT CHOICES,
THAT THEY ARE FIXING IT
THEY'RE GETTING IT RIGHT,
IN A SENSE, AND I
THINK THE MESSAGE
FROM THE PEOPLE AND THE
MEDIA TO SOME EXTENT,
AND THE
OPPOSITION PARTIES,
HAS BEEN THE DIRECTION
IS NOT NECESSARILY WRONG.
WE MAY HAVE SOME
DIFFICULTIES WITH IT
PHILOSOPHICALLY, BUT
WE THINK YOU'RE MAKING
SOME WRONG DECISIONS
WITHIN THOSE DIRECTIONS
AND YOU'VE GOT TO START
MAKING SOME CHANGES,
AND I SENSE THE PREMIER
WANTS TO LISTEN.

Steve says
WHAT DO YOU THINK
OF THAT THEORY?
THEY’RE GETTING
THE CSR STUFF OKAY.
ON THE STUFF THAT COMES
ALONG SUBSEQUENT TO THAT...
MM.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor." He’s in his forties. He has short wavy grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, blue shirt and contrasting tie.

Mahoney says
YEAH, I THINK THE
PREMIER SAID IT HIMSELF
IN THE INTERVIEW THE DEVIL
IS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT
IN THE DETAILS.
IT'S NOT ONLY THAT
THE THINGS THEY
WEREN'T SPECIFIC ON IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
WHERE THEY'RE
HAVING TROUBLE.
WHERE THEY'RE ALSO HAVING
TROUBLE IS IN WHERE
THEY DID COST THINGS OUT IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.
THE GOVERNMENT'S COME OFF
THE RAILS A LITTLE BIT,
EXCEPTING WHAT HUGH
SAID THAT IN TERMS OF
BASIC DIRECTION THEY STILL
HAVE SOME BROAD SUPPORT
FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
BUT IT'S COME
OFF THE RAILS
IN THE FOLLOWING
WAYS.
THE PEOPLE SAID,
AT THE TIME OF
THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION, THAT YOU
COULD NOT ACHIEVE THE BALANCED
BUDGET REDUCTIONS THAT
THE PREMIER TALKED ABOUT
OVER FIVE YEARS THERE,
CUT TAXES AND MAINTAIN
HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION.
YOU CANNOT WALK,
CHEW GUM, AND DANCE
AT THE SAME TIME.
AND WHAT I THINK HAS COME
HOME TO ROOST IS THAT
THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO
IDENTIFY THE CUTS THAT
GET THEM WHERE
THEY WANT TO GO.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE GETTING
SOME WITHDRAWAL.
THAT'S WHY THEY HAD TO
DOWNLOAD THINGS LIKE WELFARE.
THAT'S WHY WE DIDN'T HAVE
AN ECONOMIC STATEMENT
IN NOVEMBER; IT
WAS CANCELLED.
THAT'S WHY WE HAVEN'T HAD
A BUDGET YET THIS YEAR,
AND I GATHER THAT THE
MINISTRY OF FINANCE
HAS NOW PUT OFF
THE BUDGET AGAIN.
THEY HAVEN'T MADE
THAT ANNOUNCEMENT YET,
BUT I HEAR THROUGH
THE GRAPEVINE
THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.

Steve says
THE BUDGET WOULDN'T NORMALLY
BE 'TIL MAY ANYWAY.

Mahoney says
BUT THEY HAD SAID
AS A RESULT OF THE
CANCELLATION OF THE ECONOMIC
STATEMENT IN NOVEMBER,
THAT THERE WOULD
EITHER BE A BUDGET OR
AN ECONOMIC STATEMENT
BEFORE THAT WHICH
WOULD IDENTIFY THE EXTRA
3 BILLION DOLLARS IN CUTS.
3 BILLION DOLLARS, BY THE
WAY, IS ABOUT
THE AMOUNT THAT THE
WELFARE DOWNLOADING
IS GOING TO
COST THEM.
THEY'VE LOST CONTROL
OF THE AGENDA.
IT'S NOW ABOUT ARE MY
PROPERTY TAXES GOING TO GO UP
AND ARE TOO MANY SERVICES
BEING DOWNLOADED.
HE'S GOT TO PULL
BACK A LITTLE BIT,
AND AS HUGH SAYS, FIND
OUT WHAT HE THINKS ARE
THE MOST IMPORTANT CORE
ELEMENTS OF THE AGENDA
AND GET THEM DONE.
OTHERWISE, HE'S GOING TO BE
IN BIG POLITICAL TROUBLE.

Steve says
RICHARD JOHNSTON, WHAT'S
YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

The caption changes to "Richard Johnston.Former NDP MPP." He’s in his fifties. He has short grey hair and a moustache. He wears a grey suit, pale light blue shirt and a patterned tie.

Johnston says
I'M NOT SO CONFIDENT THAT
THEY EVEN HAD THOUGHT OUT
THE REVOLUTION
THAT WELL.
I THINK THEY GOT AWAY WITH
THE BROAD BRUSHSTROKES
OF THAT AND THE ACTION,
THE HUGE ACTIVITY,
I THINK, MAINTAINED A LOT
OF SUPPORT FOR A WHILE.
BUT I THINK THEY'RE HAVING
TROUBLE WITH A LOT OF
DETAILED PLANNING EVEN IN
THOSE AREAS AND A LOT OF
THAT STUFF IS STARTING
TO UNRAVEL AT THE MOMENT.
I GET THE SENSE OF
LET'S SEE HOW FAR
WE CAN PUSH THIS IN
TERMS OF POLICY,
AND REALLY NOT THINKING
IT THROUGH VERY MUCH.
STILL VERY IDEOLOGICALLY
BOUND KIND OF STUFF,
AND THAT'S WHY I THINK
IT'S STARTED TO COME BACK
ON THEM AT THE MOMENT.
AND I THINK HUGH
PUT HIS FINGER ON IT.
WHETHER OR NOT THEY
CAN NOW MOVE BACK FROM
IDEOLOGY AND FIGURE OUT, IN
FACT, HOW BEST TO INTERPRET
SOMETHING WHICH,
ACCORDING TO THE PREMIER,
IS LESS IMPORTANT
THAN POLLS,
WHICH IS ELECTIONS AND
REFERENDA AND VOTES
BY THE PEOPLE, AND
RESPOND TO THAT IN A WAY
THAT SHOWS THEM AS BEING
PRAGMATIC POLITICIANS
AND ADMINISTRATORS
OF THE PUBLIC PURSE.
THAT'LL BE THE MEASURE OF
WHETHER THEY SURVIVE
THE NEXT ELECTION.
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE
HOW THEY DID THAT
IDEOLOGICAL STUFF
IN THE FIRST BLUSH.

Hugh says
AND THERE ARE REALLY
TWO, IF I MAY SAY SO,
VERY DIFFERENT SETS
OF SKILLS REQUIRED
IN CANADIAN POLITICS AND
PROVINCIAL POLITICS.
THE FIRST SET OF SKILLS
IS CAN YOU SHAPE A COHESIVE
PLATFORM, PUT TOGETHER
A GOOD ORGANIZATION,
ATTRACT CANDIDATES OF
QUALITY AND SUSTAIN
PUBLIC CONFIDENCE TO
WIN AN ELECTION?
AND, CLEARLY, HARRIS AND
HIS PEOPLE HAVE DONE
AN OUTSTANDING
JOB AT THAT.
CAN YOU PROPEL YOURSELF
FORWARD BASED ON
THE FUNDAMENTAL THEMES
IN THAT ELECTION?
CLEARLY, THEY'VE
DONE THAT.
NOW THE QUESTION,
AND EVERY GOVERNMENT
HAS FACED THIS, OF ALL
AFFILIATIONS, CAN THEY
NOW MANAGE WHAT IS THE DIFFERENT
PUBLIC OPINION FRAMEWORK,
THE DIFFERENT AREAS OF
ANXIETY AND CONCERN WHICH
ARE ABOUT SPECIFICS, NOT
ABOUT GRAND DIRECTIONS,
BUT SPECIFICS IN A WAY
THAT STILL KEEPS THEIR
COALITION COHESIVE IN
ONTARIO AND ENDS UP ALSO
BEING GOOD PUBLIC POLICY,
AND IF THEY DON'T DO THAT,
THEIR PROBLEMS WILL
MAGNIFY AND IF THEY DO,
THEN THEY'LL CONTINUE TO
SUSTAIN A FAIR AMOUNT OF
SUPPORT, AND

Steve says THE JURY'S OUT.
WOULD YOU AGREE IT'S
STARTING TO UNRAVEL.
WE'VE NOW SEEN EVEN SOMEONE
LIKE ISABEL BASSETT,
WHO, YOU KNOW, A STAUNCHER
TORY YOU COULDN'T FIND.
SHE'S NOW INVOLVED
IN THE CAMPAIGN
TO KEEP WOMEN'S
COLLEGE HOSPITAL OPEN.

Hugh says
LOOK, I THINK THAT ONE
OF THE INTERESTING
PHENOMENA THAT YOU
HAVE IN A GOVERNMENT
THAT IS AS BROADLY
BASED AS THIS ONE IS,
WITH PEOPLE LIKE
ISABEL BASSETT, WHO
WOULD BE VIEWED AS
CENTRIST OR RED TORIES
ON ONE HAND AND OUR FRIEND
MURDOCH FROM GREY
WHO MIGHT BE SEEN JUST
A TOUCH TO THE RIGHT
BY SOME OTHERS, IS HOW DO
YOU KEEP IT TOGETHER?
AND YOU DON'T KEEP IT
TOGETHER IN MY VIEW
BY SAYING TO INDIVIDUAL
MEMBERS OF CAUCUS,
ACTUALLY, YOU CAN'T
EXPRESS YOUR VIEW.
THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN
KEEP IT TOGETHER AND
BE REFLECTIVE OF THE
PUBLIC IS TO LET THE
PUBLIC'S VIEWS FIND
RESONANCE IN THE CAUCUS
AND BE EXPRESSED, AND I
THINK OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM
IS MADE STRONGER
BY THAT.

Johnston says
THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY'VE
DONE UP UNTIL NOW,
AND THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO
JUST BULLDOZE THINGS
UP TO THIS POINT.

Hugh says
BUT THEY HAVE SIX CAUCUS
MEMBERS VOTE WITH THE
OPPOSITION AGAINST THE
HOSPITAL CLOSING PROCESS
AND OPPOSITION
RESOLUTION PASSED.

Johnston says
YEAH, BUT THAT'S
THE RECENT STUFF.
I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT
THAT FIRST YEAR AND A HALF,
THEY BASICALLY
BULLDOZED EVERYTHING.
IF YOU TALK ABOUT
A CONSULTANT,
THERE WAS NO
CONSULTATION PROCESS.

Steve says WELL, THEY SAY THE
CONSULTATION TOOK PART
BEFORE THE ELECTION
CAMPAIGN.

Johnston says
EXACTLY, EXACTLY.
AND THAT GENERAL LINE
WAS WHERE THEY'RE GOING.
NOW I AGREE WITH YOU.
THEY HAVE TO MAKE THIS
ADJUSTMENT
AND I'M NOT SURE WE'VE
SEEN THE WILL TO DO THAT
UP UNTIL
THIS POINT.

Mahoney says RIGHT, RICHARD,
AND THERE'S TWO
CLUES TO THEIR BEHAVIOUR
THAT I'VE NOTICED
OVER THE LAST
ALMOST TWO YEARS.
THE FIRST IS WE'VE
TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE
ON THIS PROGRAM IS
THEY WILL OFTEN MOVE
ALL GUNS BLAZING
ON AN ISSUE.
CREATE ALL SORTS
OF HEAT AND LIGHT,
AS RICHARD SAYS.

Hugh says SOME OF THE HEAT
COMES FROM OPPONENTS,
TO BE FAIR.

Mahoney continues
THAT'S RIGHT.
SOMETIMES, THEN
PULL BACK.
WITH THE PUBLIC
SECTOR UNIONS,
WITH THE DOCTORS.
MAYBE NOW ON
HEALTH CARE POSSIBLY.

Steve says MAYBE MEGACITY.
MAYBE ON MEGACITY.

Johnston says
CERTAINLY ON MEGACITY.

Mahoney continues IT
SOUNDED LIKE IT.
SO THAT'S CLUE NUMBER ONE
TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT
AND I THINK THAT'S
PROBABLY WHAT
THEY'RE DOING THIS
WEEKEND ON MEGACITY.
THE SECOND IS WHEN THINGS
REALLY START TO GET
A LITTLE TOUGH FOR THEM,
THEY GO TO WHAT I THINK IS
ONE OF THEIR GREAT
ACHILLES HEELS,
IS THEY BEGIN TO TALK
ABOUT THE US AND THEM
LANGUAGE.
ONE OF THE FAIRER
CRITICISMS, I THINK,
OF THIS GOVERNMENT IS
THAT WE PROBABLY HAVE
A SLIGHTLY MORE DIVIDED
PROVINCE NOW
THAN WE DID
IN 1995.

Steve says YOU ONLY
THINK SLIGHTLY, EH?

Mahoney says WELL, PERHAPS A
LITTLE MORE THAN SLIGHTLY.

Hugh says THERE WAS A TOUCH
OF OPPOSITION TO
BOB RAE'S ADMINISTRATION.

Mahoney continues THERE WAS,
THERE WAS.

Johnston says DID YOU CATCH A
HINT OF THAT? ON ELECTION
DAY ESPECIALLY.

Mahoney continues
ON ELECTION DAY
THERE WAS A BIT.
BUT I'M NOT TALKING
SO MUCH ABOUT
POLITICAL OPPOSITION.
I'M TALKING ABOUT A
ALMOST CLASS-DRIVEN,
RIVEN SOCIETY.
I DON'T WANT TO PUT A
PARTICULARLY MARXIST
INTERPRETATION
OF THIS, BUT

Hugh says I LIKE THAT.

Mahoney continues
YEAH, SURE, SURE.
BUT EVERY ONCE IN A
WHILE AND THE PREMIER
IS GUILTY OF THIS...

Hugh says ALL THOSE MARXISTS AT
FRASER AND BEATTY.

Mahoney giggles and continues
IT'S WELL KNOWN,
WELL-KNOWN MARXISTS.
THE PREMIER HIMSELF
FELL VICTIM TO IT AGAIN
IN YOUR INTERVIEW
THERE WHEN HE BEGAN
TO TALK ABOUT THE WHINING
VOICES THAT HAVE BENEFITED
SNIVELLING, ALL THAT
SORT OF STUFF.

Hugh says THAT
WAS MY WORD.

Mahoney continues
HE'S GOT TO STAY
AWAY FROM THAT'S TUFF
IF HE WANTS TO GOVERN
EFFECTIVELY AND IF HE WANTS
TO GET RE-ELECTED,
BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT
THE JOB OF THE PREMIER OF
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO IS.

Hugh says BUT IT'S QUITE
INTERESTING.
WHEN HE ANSWERED ANOTHER
ONE OF STEVEN'S QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHERE ARE YOU IN
TERMS OF FEDERAL POLITICS,
HE SAID, YOUR COALITION
HAS IN IT SOME
FEDERAL LIBERALS,
AND SOME...

Richard says NOT MANY.

Hugh continues
NO, BUT THE TRUTH OF THE
MATTER IS YOU CAN TALK
ALL YOU WANT ABOUT
ALLEGED REFORM SUPPORT.
THE ONLY REASON THAT THE
HARRIS ADMINISTRATION
WAS ELECTED IS BECAUSE
A LOT OF SOFT LIBERALS
VOTED CONSERVATIVE.

Mahoney says
THE SAME PEOPLE
WHO WOULD SUPPORT
THE FEDERAL LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT.

Hugh continues
AND WHEN MISTER DAVIS WAS
PREMIER WE USED TO KNOW
THAT 63 PERCENT OF THE
PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR
PIERRE TRUDEAU VOTED FOR
BILL DAVIS ALL THE TIME.
SO YOU DO HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL, AND YOU'RE RIGHT
ABOUT NOT DIVIDING
PEOPLE INAPPROPRIATELY.
I THINK THE CRITICAL
QUESTION

Mahoney says THAT
WAS, BY THE WAY,
AN IMMENSELY FRUSTRATING THING
FOR PROVINCIAL LIBERALS.

Hugh says I'M SURE IT WAS,
I'M SURE IT WAS.
BUT THE REAL CHALLENGE
NOW AND THIS IS ALSO,
IF I MAY SAY SO, ON THE
PART OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO
HAVE LED THE OPPOSITION,
IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES
BEGIN TO MAKE SOME
SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE,
AND DOES INVITE
PEOPLE IN TO SEE HOW
THEY CAN MANAGE SOME
OF THE ANXIETIES, WILL
THE EXTREME OPPOSITION STAY
SHRILL IN THAT FASHION
OR WILL THEY DECIDE THEY'RE
GOING TO COME TO THE TABLE
AND BE CONSTRUCTIVE,
BECAUSE IF THAT OPPORTUNITY
PRESENTS ITSELF AND
THEY CHOOSE NOT TO,
THEN IT STRIKES ME THAT
THAT WILL BE WEAKENING
THEIR OWN POSITION.

Johnston says
I AGREE THERE'S A GOOD
POSSIBILITY OF THAT,
BUT I THINK THE BIGGER
CHALLENGE FOR HARRIS IS
THAT WITHIN HIS CAUCUS
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHO HATE ANY OF THE
BACKTRACKING.
AND THEY ARE GOING TO
REALLY DISLIKE IT IF
THE PREMIER NOW MAKES
CONCESSIONS ON MEGACITY,
MAKES CONCESSIONS HERE
AND THERE BECAUSE
THEY'RE GOING TO SEE THAT
A SIGN OF WEAKNESS AND
THEY WILL SEE THE
OPPOSITION ATTACKING MORE,
AND THAT'S GOING TO
CAUSE THE DIVISIONS,
I THINK, WITH
THE CAUCUS.

Steve says
HOWEVER, THERE ARE
PROBABLY AN EQUAL NUMBER
OF ZEALOTS, AS YOU
DESCRIBE THEM RIGHT NOW,
AS THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
WANT THE GOVERNMENT
VERY MUCH TO BACKTRACK
ON SOME OF THE THINGS.
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KEEP
THOSE LOCAL HOSPITALS OPEN.

Johnston says
ACTUALLY, I'M JUST
SAYING THAT THAT'S WHAT'S
GOING TO CAUSE THE
DIVISION IN CAUCUS.
UP TO NOW, CAUCUS
SOLIDARITY, I THINK.
FROM OUTSIDE, IT SEEMS
TO BE PRETTY STRONG.
I'VE GOT A FEELING IT
MAY START TO UNRAVEL.

Steve says
HUGH, YOU WANT THE
LAST 20 SECONDS ON THIS?

Hugh says
ONLY TO SAY THAT WHEN
TRUDEAU WAS PRIME MINISTER,
THE DISSIDENTS WERE
IN THE CABINET.
WHEN DAVID LEWIS WAS
LEADER OF THE NDP,
THE DISSIDENTS
WERE IN THE WAFFLE.
IN OUR PARTY THE
DISSIDENTS ARE ALWAYS
THE MEMBERSHIP.
ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

Steve says
I THOUGHT YOU WERE
GOING TO SAY IN
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE, BUT
THAT'S ANOTHER THING.
OKAY, THAT IS
ANOTHER QUESTION.
RICHARD JOHNSTON, THANKS
SO MUCH FOR PINCH-HITTING.
SAFE TRIP BACK TO
DESERONTO FOR YOU.
RICHARD MAHONEY
BACK TO OTTAWA.
HUGH SEGAL TO KINGSTON.
WE'RE JUST ALL OVER THE
PROVINCE THIS WEEK,
AREN'T WE?
OKAY, THANKS SO
MUCH, EVERYBODY..
WE'RE ALWAYS ANXIOUS
FOR YOUR FEEDBACK
ON OUR PROGRAM, SO WRITE
TO US, IF YOU WOULD, AT:

A slate reads "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1."

Steve says
OR ON THE INTERNET AT:

A new slate reads "Internet address, 4th_Reading@tvo.org."

Steve continues
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #89