Transcript: Show #88 | Mar 16, 1997

The opening sequence rolls.
In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.
Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
SMALLER GOVERNMENT,
BIGGER RIDINGS.

In a clip, a man in his mid-forties says
IT WAS A VERY UNDEMOCRATIC
MOVE FOR THE PREMIER
JUST TO SAY
CATEGORICALLY THAT
WE'RE GOING TO GO
FEDERAL BOUNDS,
AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO
LOOK AT IT ANY FURTHER.

The screen displays the maps of Suburban and Metro Toronto.

Steve says WHO WINS AND WHO
LOSES AS THE TORIES
REDRAW ONTARIO'S
POLITICAL LANDSCAPE?

(music plays)

Steve and four guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit over a dark grey shirt.

He says
MPPs ARE BACK IN THEIR
RIDINGS THIS WEEK
AS THE LEGISLATURE
TAKES A BREAK.
BUT THE NEXT TIME THEIR
CONSTITUENTS STEP INTO
A VOTING BOOTH, THOSE
RIDINGS WILL LOOK
RADICALLY DIFFERENT.
AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
WELCOME TO
4TH READING.
ONTARIO'S ELECTORAL
MAP IS BEING
DRAMATICALLY REDRAWN.
THEY'RE GOING FROM
130 SEATS TO 103.
TORIES SAY THERE'S
TOO MANY POLITICIANS,
SO THE PROVINCIAL
RIDING BOUNDARIES
WILL NOW MIRROR
FEDERAL ONES.
103 FEDERAL SEATS, 103
PROVINCIAL ONES, TOO.
THERE WILL BE FEWER
SEATS IN TORONTO,
AND FEWER SEATS
IN THE NORTH.
IT MIGHT SEEM THE STUFF
ONLY A POLITICAL JUNKIE
WOULD CARE ABOUT,
UNLESS YOUR RIDING
IS ABOUT TO BECOME ALMOST
AS BIG AS GERMANY.
TAKE A LOOK.

A clip plays. In it, Frank Miclash walks around the airport.

Steve says
IT'S THURSDAY AFTERNOON,
AND LIKE MOST MPPs
AT QUEEN'S PARK, FRANK
MICLASH COMMUTES
TO HIS RIDING
FOR THE WEEKEND.
BUT UNLIKE MOST MPPs
WHO ARE WITHIN DRIVING
DISTANCE, MICLASH IS
1800 KILOMETRES
FROM HIS NORTHWESTERN
ONTARIO RIDING OF KENORA.

Frank’s in his mid-forties. He has short dark brown hair in a neat cut and has a moustache. He wears a dark green trench, white shirt, contrasting tie and glasses. As he speaks, the video shows him checking in for a flight.

Frank says I THINK
COMING BACK TO THE NORTH
IS COMING HOME FOR ME.
IT'S ALWAYS BEEN HOME,
AND IT'S THE FEELING
OF COMING HOME, COMING BACK
TO THE PEOPLE I REPRESENT,
THE PEOPLE I WORK
CLOSELY WITH,
AND IT'S A GOOD
FEELING.
YOU KNOW, LIKE
MONDAY MORNINGS,
GOING BACK TO TORONTO
IS YOUR TYPICAL GOING
TO WORK MONDAY MORNING.
ON THE THURSDAY TRIP HOME,
OR THE FRIDAY TRIP HOME,
IT'S ALWAYS COMING HOME.

Frank arrives to Toronto and gets on board of a cab.

Steve says AFTER A TWO-HOUR
FLIGHT TO THUNDER BAY,
MICLASH FINALLY BEGINS
TO FEEL AT HOME IN
THE CITY THAT IS THE HUB
OF NORTHERN ONTARIO.

Frank says I OFTEN SAY
WHEN I GET INTO THE NORTHWEST,
THE FIRST THING I DO IS
GET OFF THE AIRPLANE,
AND GO OVER AND HUG
A TREE BECAUSE
I'M ALWAYS HAPPY
TO BE BACK.
WHEN I GET TO THUNDER
BAY, I KNOW I'M BACK
IN THE NORTHWEST.
THIS IS WHERE I START TO PICK
UP ON NORTHERN PEOPLE.

Steve says FROM AIRPLANES TO
TAXIS TO HOTEL ROOMS,
IT CAN BE A LONELY
AND TIRING EXISTENCE,
BUT IT'S AN INTEGRAL
PART OF HIS JOB.

Frank checks in at a hotel and goes to his room.

Frank says AT TIMES, IT HAS
A TENDENCY TO WEAR YOU DOWN.
YOU'LL FIND AT SOME
POINT YOU JUST, BANG,
YOU'RE EXHAUSTED, AND IT
DOES CATCH UP TO YOU
THE ODD TIME, BUT AGAIN,
I'VE LEARNED TO RELAX
IN THE AIRPLANE AND USE THAT
TIME AS PRODUCTIVE TIME.

Steve says IT'S FRIDAY
MORNING, AND FRANK MICLASH
IS BACK AT THE THUNDER
BAY AIRPORT.
THE BEARSKINS FLIGHT TO
SIOUX LOOKOUT
WILL PUT HIM BACK IN THE
AIR FOR ANOTHER HOUR.

Once again, Steve gets on board of a flight.

Frank says THERE’s NOTHING LIKE
SEEING THINGS FIRSTHAND.
AND I THINK IN ORDER TO
UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION,
UNDERSTAND HOW
PEOPLE ARE FEELING,
UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE
ISSUES IN THE COMMUNITIES,
YOU HAVE TO BE THERE.
AND I PRIDE MYSELF IN
SPENDING A LOT OF TIME
ON THE ROAD, AND A
LOT OF TIME IN THE
VARIOUS COMMUNITIES.
I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE
MAJOR POINTS IS TO SELL
THE UNIQUENESS OF THE NORTH
TO THE FOLKS IN TORONTO.
AND I'VE ALWAYS SAID IT'S
VERY IMPORTANT
WE HAVE SOUTHERN ONTARIO
POLITICIANS COME
INTO THE NORTH TO SEE
THOSE DIFFERENCES.
AND THERE ARE SOME EXTREME
EXAMPLES OF WHAT WE DEAL WITH
HERE IN NORTHWESTERN
ONTARIO COMPARED TO
WHAT A MEMBER IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO WOULD DEAL WITH
ON A DAILY BASIS.

Steve says THE RIDING OF KENORA
IS ONE OF THE LARGEST
IN ONTARIO, 45,000
CONSTITUENTS LIVE IN
AN AREA COVERING 146,000
SQUARE KILOMETRES.
THE VAST WILDERNESS OF
THE RIDING IS DOTTED
WITH LAKES AND FORESTS AS
FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE.
BUT THE NEXT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION
WILL SEE THE RIDING
BOUNDARIES CHANGE.

A map on screen titled "The North" shows a part of the Canadian territory divided in different colours: red, mostly to the sides, very small blue areas around the edge and a vast green portion from the center to the sides. As Steve speaks, the map would change colours to shades of brown and beige.

Steve says
THE NEW PROVINCIAL RIDINGS
WILL PARALLEL
THE FEDERAL RIDING
BOUNDARIES.
THE KENORA RIDING WILL BE
MERGED WITH TWO OTHERS,
RAINY RIVER AND
LAKE NIPIGON,
MAKING IT ALMOST AS
LARGE AS GERMANY.
NORTHERN ONTARIO WILL
SEE ITS REPRESENTATION
AT QUEEN'S PARK
CUT BY SIX MPPs.
THAT, SAYS MICLASH, WILL
FURTHER ISOLATE
NORTHERN ONTARIO.

Frank says I THINK IT
WAS A VERY UNDEMOCRATIC MOVE
FOR THE PREMIER JUST TO
SAY CATEGORICALLY,
WE'RE GOING TO GO
FEDERAL BOUNDS,
AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO
LOOK AT IT ANY FURTHER.
I THINK THAT WAS
EXTREMELY UNDEMOCRATIC.
HE WAS NOT CONSIDERING THE
UNIQUENESS OF THE NORTH.
THE WEATHER CONDITIONS WE
FACE HERE UP IN THE NORTH.
HE DIDN'T LOOK AT THE
SPARSE POPULATION
OF NORTHERN ONTARIO.

Steve says SIOUX LOOKOUT IS
PERMEATED BY A SENSE
OF INDEPENDENCE
AND ISOLATION.
IN THAT RESPECT, IT'S
LIKE SO MANY OTHER TOWNS
IN THE NORTH.
IT'S WHAT FUELS THE SENSE
OF MISUNDERSTANDING
THAT EXISTS BETWEEN
THE TWO SOLITUDES
OF NORTH AND SOUTH.
THE DIVIDE IS NOT ONLY
CULTURAL, IT'S SOCIAL,
POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC.

Frank says
WE DEPEND A LOT ON OUR
NATURAL RESOURCES,
IN TERMS OF JOBS
HERE IN THE NORTH,
AND IT'S THE TIMBER,
THE MINERALS,
WE HAVE MINING IN THE
AREA, AND OUR TOURISM
THAT WE REALLY
DEPEND A LOT ON.
AND QUITE OFTEN, WE'LL HAVE
DECISIONS MADE IN TORONTO
THAT REALLY DON'T REFLECT,
NOT ONLY THE USE
OF THOSE RESOURCES, BUT
DON'T REFLECT THE LIFESTYLE.

A new video shows Frank getting to an office and meeting people.


Steve says MICLASH HEARS THOSE
KINDS OF FRUSTRATIONS OFTEN.
IT'S HIS JOB TO
COMMUNICATE THE CONCERNS
OF NORTHERNERS AND THEIR
ISSUES TO QUEEN'S PARK.
ON THIS VISIT, HE HEARS
FROM A DOCTOR QUIGG WHO
HAS BEEN FIGHTING EPIDEMIC
RATES OF DIABETES
IN FIRST NATIONS
COMMUNITIES.
HE'S ALSO BEEN STRUGGLING
WITH A SHORTAGE
OF DOCTORS IN
THE NORTH.

In the office, a man in his thirties presents a situation to Frank.

He says
AS YOU ARE AWARE, THE
DIABETES RATE IN SANDY LAKE
IS NOW SOMEWHERE IN
THE REGION OF THE THIRD
HIGHEST IN THE WORLD.
AND THE INCIDENTS IN
MANY OF OUR OTHER
COMMUNITIES IS EXTREMELY
HIGH, AS WELL.
AND OUR CONCERN IS THAT
WITHOUT APPROPRIATE
RESOURCES TO DEAL
WITH THE PROBLEM,
THAT WE'RE GOING TO RUN
INTO SOME OF THE PROBLEMS
THAT SOME OF THE
TRIBES IN THE U.S.
HAVE BEEN
AFFLICTED BY IN THE
FIRST NATIONS COMMUNITIES
OF ZUNI AND OMAHA
IN PARTICULAR
HAVE RUN INTO.

Steve says THAT SENSE OF BEING
OVERWHELMED BY POLICY
DECISIONS MADE IN THE SOUTH
IS ALSO A COMMON THEME
IN NORTHERN POLITICS.
MICLASH IS EXPECTING TO HEAR
A LOT OF FRUSTRATION
FROM MUNICIPAL
POLITICIANS AT A MEETING
OF THE KENORA DISTRICT
MUNICIPALITIES ASSOCIATION.
MANY OF THEM ARE
CONCERNED WITH MUNICIPAL
AMALGAMATION AND
DOWNLOADING OF SOCIAL
SERVICES IN THEIR AREA.
BUT THEIR BIGGEST
FRUSTRATION IS IN
NOT BEING HEARD BY A
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
THAT IS VIRTUALLY
A WORLD AWAY.

A new clip shows Pat Sayeau, Councillor, Red Lake, at a conference. He’s in his late forties. He has curly short grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears glasses, a white short-sleeve shirt and a contrasting patterned tie.

Pat says
WHERE DOES THE MUNICIPALITY
HAVE THE HAMMER HERE WHERE
THEY CAN SAY THIS IS WHAT
WE CAN AFFORD TO PAY,
THIS IS ALL WE
CAN AFFORD TO PAY.
TAILOR YOUR SERVICE TO
SUIT THE DOLLARS
THAT ARE AVAILABLE.
WHERE'S OUR HAMMER?

A caption on screen reads "Bill Murdoch. PC MPP, Grey-Owen Sound." He’s in his late forties. He has short dark brown hair and a beard. He wears a dark suit, white shirt and contrasting tie.

He says
YOU'RE DEALING WITH A
POLICE FORCE AND
YOU JUST CAN'T
GET SOMEWHERE.
YOU CAN'T GET THE EXPERTISE
OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE
IN OUR NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT
MINES OR MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS,
THAT'S WHEN YOU PHONE
FRANK AND I.
YOU PHONE FRANK AND SAY,
FRANK, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM,
GET A HOLD OF MURDOCH,
GET HIM UP HERE,
WE'VE GOT TO WORK
SOMETHING OUT.
WE DON'T WANT IT
TO COME TO THAT.

Frank says THERE CERTAINLY
IS FRUSTRATION,
AND THERE HAVE BEEN A GOOD
NUMBER OF MUNICIPALITIES
THAT HAVE INDICATED,
THROUGH RESOLUTION EVEN,
THEY THINK WE WOULD BE
BETTER SERVED IF WE
WERE CLOSER TO A CAPITAL
CITY SUCH AS WINNIPEG.
I KNOW IT'S
FRUSTRATING AT TIMES.
I KNOW THE DISTANCE FACTOR
IS VERY FRUSTRATING,
THE FEELING THAT A LOT OF
THESE MUNICIPAL LEADERS
THAT WE MET OVER THE
LAST COUPLE OF DAYS FEEL
TOWARDS QUEEN'S PARK, BUT I
THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
TO TAKE A VERY CLOSE LOOK
WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT
JUST MOVING AWAY FROM THE
PROVINCE AND BECOMING
A PART OF MANITOBA.

Steve says IT'S A TWO AND A
HALF HOUR DRIVE FROM
SIOUX LOOKOUT TO KENORA,
THE LARGEST TOWN
IN MICLASH'S RIDING.
IT'S ALSO HOME, BUT THERE'S
NO REST THIS WEEKEND.

Frank gets to a new destination where he registers.

The man in the counter says
REGISTRATION NUMBER,
MAKE SURE YOU CHECK IN
AT EACH OF THE CHECK POINTS
AND COLLECT THE CARD.

Steve says IN A SMALL
TOWN LIKE KENORA,
EVERY PUBLIC EVENT BECOMES
A POLITICAL EVENT
FOR THE LOCAL MEMBER
OF THE LEGISLATURE.
ON THIS MORNING, MICLASH IS
RIDING IN A SNOWMOBILE
RALLY FOR THE LOCAL
EASTER SEALS SOCIETY.
FROM AIRPLANE TO
TRUCK TO SNOWMOBILE,
JUST GETTING AROUND IN
THE NORTH IS ONE
OF MICLASH'S BIGGEST
CHALLENGES.

Frank gets to a big room where he approaches a small aircraft.

Frank says
THIS IS ACTUALLY
THE AIRCRAFT I USE,
MOSTLY DURING THE SUMMER.
YOU CAN SEE IT'S
ON FLOATS.
IT'S A 1939
TAYLOR CRAFT.
IT HAS AN 85
CONTINENTAL IN IT,
AND I USE THIS TO GET
AROUND A GOOD AMOUNT
OF THE CONSTITUENCY.
WE DON'T HAVE ROAD ACCESS
TO A GOOD NUMBER
OF COMMUNITIES
THAT I SERVICE,
AND IT'S STRICTLY
AIR ACCESS,
AND WINTER ROAD ACCESS
DURING THE WINTER WHERE
THEY'LL PLOW THE ROADS
OVER DURING THE WINTER.
BEING A REMOTE COMMUNITY,
DURING THE SUMMER,
YOU'RE STRICTLY AIR
ACCESS INTO THEM.
AGAIN, IT'S A GREAT ABILITY
JUST TO BE ABLE TO DROP IN
AND FLIP AROUND FROM
COMMUNITY TO COMMUNITY
AT MY OWN RATE,
AND MY OWN PACE.

Steve says IT'S MONDAY MORNING
AND MICLASH STARTS ANOTHER WEEK
THAT SEEMS TO HAVE
BLENDED SEAMLESSLY
INTO LAST WEEK.
HE'LL BOARD A FLIGHT FROM
KENORA TO THUNDER BAY,
AND BACK TO TORONTO.
HE'LL MAKE IT BACK TO
QUEEN'S PARK JUST
IN TIME FOR
QUESTION PERIOD.

Frank’s once again at the airport.

Frank says TO CARRY
ON A SCHEDULE LIKE I DO,
AND TO BE AROUND IN THE
RIDING AND BACK AND FORTH
TO TORONTO AND ON THE
ROAD WITH COMMITTEES
AND WHATEVER, IT WOULD
BE DIFFICULT TO HAVE
A FAMILY BACK AT HOME.
AND I KNOW OTHER MPPs HAVE
EXPERIENCED DIFFICULTY
FROM BEING AWAY
FROM THE FAMILY.
MY LIFESTYLE HAS ALWAYS
BEEN ONE OF WHERE
MY SUITCASE IS ALWAYS PACKED,
AND ALWAYS ON THE GO,
SO IT'S JUST PICKING UP
ON THE LIFESTYLE
THAT I'VE GROWN TO
ENJOY, AND APPRECIATE.

The clip ends. Steve appears back in the studio sitting down with his guests.

He says
FRANK MICLASH FOR
THE LIBERALS,
WHO INCIDENTALLY WILL BE
TAKING ON HOWIE HAMPTON,
THE LEADER OF THE
NDP, IN THE NEXT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION.
NOW JOINING US ARE TWO MPPs
WHO WILL ALSO PROBABLY
BE BATTLING IT OUT
FOR THE SAME RIDING
COME THE NEXT ELECTION.
NEVER ONE TO BACK
AWAY FROM A FIGHT,
THERE'S PETER KORMOS, THE NDP
MEMBER FOR WELLAND-THOROLD.
AND NO PUSHOVER HIMSELF,
FRANK SHEEHAN
WHO IS THE CONSERVATIVE
MPP FOR LINCOLN.
AND WE WELCOME
BOTH OF YOU HERE.
THANKS FOR BEING
HERE TODAY.
YOU KNOW OUR GANG
HERE, HUGH SEGAL,
CONSERVATIVE PARTY
FROM WAY BACK WHEN,
WHERE'S HUGH?
THERE HE IS.
RUTH GRIER, FORMER CABINET
MINISTER FOR BOB RAE -
YOU USED TO SIT WITH PETER
KORMOS FOR A SHORT TIME
AT THE CABINET.

Ruth says
YES, WE DID.
WE WERE IN CABINET AND
IN CAUCUS TOGETHER.

Ruth’s in her late fifties. She has short white hair and wears a beige blazer over a matching shirt and a patterned scarf.

Steve says A BRIEF
DELIGHTFUL YEAR.
AND FROM THE OTTAWA LAW
FIRM OF FRASER AND BEATTY,
HERE'S RICHARD MAHONEY,
THE FORMER ONTARIO
LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT.
PETER, ARE THERE TOO MANY
POLITICIANS AT QUEEN'S PARK?

Peter appears next. He’s in his mid-forties. He has short grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark suit and off-white shirt. The caption changes to "Peter Kormos. NDP MPP, Welland-Thorold."

He says
WELL, A WHOLE LOT OF FOLKS
ARE REALLY STARTING
TO THINK THERE ARE FAR TOO
MANY TORY POLITICIANS
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
I THINK WE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND THIS IS
AN ISSUE THE
TORIES GENERATED.
THEY CREATED
A PROBLEM.
ONCE AGAIN, THEY PURPORT
TO HAVE CREATED A CRISIS,
AND THEN PURPORT
TO SOLVE IT.
BUT REDUCING THE NUMBER
OF RIDINGS IN ONTARIO
DOESN'T COME CLOSE TO
ADDRESSING THE REAL ISSUE.

Steve says
FRANK, WHY DO YOU THINK
WE'RE GOING TO BE
BETTER GOVERNED WITH
FEWER POLITICIANS?

The caption changes to "Frank Sheehan. PC MPP, Lincoln." He’s in his fifties. He has short wavy hair and is clean-shaven He wears glasses, a dark suit, light blue shirt and contrasting patterned tie.

Frank says
ANY TIME YOU REDUCE THE
NUMBER OF POLITICIANS,
IT'S GOT TO BE A
GREAT ACT OF HUMANITY.

Steve says A GREAT
ACT OF HUMANITY?
SO WHY NOT GO
FROM 130 TO THREE?

Frank says
WELL, STEVE, I BROUGHT
SOME STATS WITH ME HERE,
AND I'LL JUST GIVE
YOU AN EXAMPLE.
NEW BRUNSWICK HAS
783,000 PEOPLE,
AND THEY HAVE
55 POLITICIANS.
YOU GET IN THE YUKON,
YOU GOT 1839 PEOPLE
PER ONE POLITICIAN.
THERE'S SOMETHING
WRONG WITH THAT.

Steve says OUR RATIO IS HIGHER
IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

Frank continues
OUR RATIO IS
RIGHT OUT TO LUNCH.
IN THE STATES IT'S
ABOUT 500 TO 530
IN THE LARGEST STATES.
THEY COST A LOT
OF MONEY.
COSTS OVER 400,000 DOLLARS A
YEAR TO KEEP PETER
AND I DOWN AT
QUEEN'S PARK.
I THINK THAT
INCLUDES THE TRAVEL.
THE ELECTION PROCESS
IS ALL SKEWED.
IF I WALK OFF THE EAST SIDE
OF MY RESIDENTIAL LOT,
I'M OUT OF MY
RIDING RIGHT NOW.
IN THE NEW RIDING,
WE GO TO WELLAND,
I'LL WALK TWO BLOCKS
OUT MY FRONT DOOR,
I'M OUT OF THE RIDING, AND
I'M A FIVE-MINUTE WALK
FROM THE CITY HALL.
SO THE GERRYMANDERING
THAT'S GONE ON,
IT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT
TO ORGANIZE POLITICALLY.
I CANNOT ORGANIZE
THE LINCOLN RIDING
BECAUSE IT'S
FIVE SOLITUDES.

Steve says RICHARD.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor." He’s in his forties. He has short wavy grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, white shirt and light brown tie.

He says
BUT FRANK, THAT WON'T
NECESSARILY CHANGE.
THE FEDERAL RIDING
BOUNDARIES WHICH ARE
NO MORE OR LESS LOGICAL
THAN THE PROVINCIAL
RIDING BOUNDARIES.
I THINK PETER'S RIGHT.
IN AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN,
I REMEMBER IT WAS
A VERY DRAMATIC DAY.
HE WHEELED UP A TRUCK
TO QUEEN'S PARK
WITH A BUNCH OF CHAIRS
ON IT, THIS IS HARRIS.
AND HE SAID WE'RE GOING
TO TAKE OFF 30-ODD
OF THESE CHAIRS.

Steve says 27 EMPTY CHAIRS.

Richard continues
AND HE CLAIMED AT THAT
TIME, THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION WAS GOING
TO SAVE 1.3 MILLION DOLLARS.
BY THE WAY, THEY'RE NOW
CLAIMING THAT GETTING
RID OF THOSE
POLITICIANS IS GOING TO
SAVE 11.3 MILLION DOLLARS.
SO THE PRICE OF YOU GUYS
HAVE GONE UP 10 MILLION
BUCKS IN THE INTERVENING
YEAR AND A HALF,
SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT
YOU'VE BEEN DOING,
BUT YOU'RE GETTING MORE
AND MORE EXPERIENCE.
IT'S ALL SMOKE
AND MIRRORS.

Steve says IT'S A WONDERFUL
POPULOUS GESTURE THOUGH,
WOULDN'T YOU SAY?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says IT'S A POPULOUS
GESTURE BECAUSE PEOPLE
SOMEHOW THINK, WHETHER
THEY THINK IT'S GOING
TO SAVE MONEY OR NOT, THEY'VE
SCAPEGOATED POLITICIANS,
PEOPLE ON SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE,
YOU CAN BE SCAPEGOATED, BUT
WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO
IS WHAT ARE
POLITICIANS FOR?
THEY'RE A CONDUIT BETWEEN
PEOPLE AND THE GOVERNMENT.
IT'S A TWO-WAY STREET.
AND I THINK IT'S ALL PART
OF THIS GOVERNMENT
NOT WANTING TO
HEAR FROM PEOPLE.
YOU DID THE BIT ABOUT
MICLASH IN THE NORTH.
TO TRY TO MAINTAIN CONTACT,
SHARE INFORMATION,
GET FEEDBACK BACK ON
THAT SIZE OF A RIDING
IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

Steve says
HOW WOULD YOU REPRESENT A
RIDING THE SIZE OF GERMANY?
I KNOW YOU COULD,
HUGH, BECAUSE YOU'RE
AN EXTRAORDINARY
INDIVIDUAL, BUT HOW
WOULD THE REST OF
THE POLITICIANS?

The caption changes to "Hugh Segal. Progressive Conservative Advisor." He’s in his fifties. He has short straight brown hair parted to the side and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark striped suit over a pale yellow shirt, a contrasting tie and glasses.

He says WE HAVE FEDERAL
CONSTITUENCIES IN CANADA
LIKE THE EAST
ARCTIC, FOR EXAMPLE,
THAT'S THE SIZE
OF EUROPE ITSELF.
SO GEOGRAPHY IS A PROBLEM,
YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE
ALLOWANCES FOR THAT.

Steve says
WOULDN'T YOU ARGUE FOR MORE
SEATS THEN, THAN FEWER?

Hugh says
NO BECAUSE I THINK THE
BENEFIT TO THE CONSTITUENT
OF KNOWING THAT
HIS FEDERAL MP,
AND HIS PROVINCIAL MP,
WHATEVER THEIR POLITICAL
AFFILIATION, REPRESENT
THE SAME GEOGRAPHIC AREA,
AND SHOULD BE
WORKING TOGETHER,
AS THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD
BE WORKING TOGETHER
ON LOCAL PROBLEMS, IS
REALLY VERY SIGNIFICANT.
AND I THINK THE NOTION OF
HAVING DIFFERENT BOUNDARIES
AT DIFFERENT TIMES
PRODUCES A FUDGING
OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
AND I THINK THAT KIND OF
CLARITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY
IS WHAT WILL MAKE THE SYSTEM
FAR MORE RESPONSIBLE.

Ruth says HUGH, THERE'S
NO EVIDENCE OF THAT.
AND THE ISSUES
ARE SO DIFFERENT.
PROVINCIAL POLITICIANS
ARE DEALING WITH MUCH
MORE LOCAL ISSUES THAN
FEDERAL POLITICIANS.

Frank says THE EVIDENCE, RUTH,
IS THAT THE POLITICIANS
WE'VE HAD TO DATE HAVE
NOW GIVEN US A DEBT,
COMBINED DEBT, FEDERALLY
AND PROVINCIALLY,
THAT EXCEEDED THE GROSS
NATIONAL PRODUCT.
SO OBVIOUSLY VOLUME HAS
NOT DONE US MUCH GOOD
ON THE QUALITY ISSUE.

Ruth says WHAT HAS VOLUME
GOT TO DO WITH THE DEBT?

Frank says
IT HAS TO DO WITH THE DEBT
BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPPOSED
TO BE THE MANAGERS, AND
THEY'RE NOT MANAGING.

Hugh says
AND FRANK IS RIGHT THAT
THE DEBT, OVER TIME,
BEING PRODUCED BY A
SERIES OF POLICIES,
AND NO DIRECT SENSE
OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
AND IT IS IMPORTANT FOR
ELECTORS TO BE ABLE
TO HOLD PEOPLE
ACCOUNTABLE.

Steve says
MORE ACCOUNTABILITY
WITH FEWER POLITICIANS?

Hugh says
I THINK YOU WOULD, IN FACT,
HAVE MORE ACCOUNTABILITY
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T THEN
SAY THAT, WELL, YOU KNOW,
THE HEALTH PROGRAM FOR
THAT CONSTITUENCY
WAS REALLY NOT PART OF
MY TERRAIN BECAUSE
THE BOUNDARIES WERE
DIFFERENT, AND THE FEDERAL,
IT DOESN'T HOLD
WATER ANYMORE.

Peter says HUGH, THIS MOVE
TO REDUCE THE NUMBER
OF RIDINGS IN ONTARIO
REFLECTS MIKE HARRIS'
DISDAIN FOR
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
CLEARLY, HARRIS HAS A
STRONG PENCHANT FOR RULE
BY EXECUTIVE WITH LITTLE
REFERENCE TO WHAT HAPPENS
IN THE LEGISLATURE OR WHAT
HAPPENS IN COMMITTEES.
WE WITNESSED THAT IN A VERY
ACUTE WAY WITH RESPECT
TO THE MEGACITY
ISSUE AND BILL 103
OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS.
THIS GOVERNMENT CONSIDERS
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
TO BE SOMEHOW OBSOLETE.
I DISAGREE VERY
PROFOUNDLY.

Frank says HOW DO YOU RECONCILE
THAT WITH THE FACT THAT
IT WAS IN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION A YEAR BEFORE
THE WRIT WAS DROPPED, AND
I TELL YOU PERSONALLY,
I CAMPAIGNED ON THAT
IN A VERY HEAVY WAY,
AND PEOPLE THOUGHT
IT WAS A GREAT IDEA.

Hugh says I DON'T RECALL ONE
OTHER POLITICAL PARTY,
INCLUDING THE LIBERALS
AND DEMOCRATS,
CAMPAIGNING AGAINST THAT
SAYING IT WAS A BAD IDEA
DURING THE ELECTION
WHEN IT WAS PART OF
THE PLATFORM FROM THE
VERY BEGINNING.

Steve says LET'S JUST BRING SOME
GRAPHICS UP HERE BECAUSE
I WANT TO SHOW EVERYBODY WHO
IS WATCHING US AT HOME
HOW IN FACT THE PROVINCE IS
CHANGING ALL OVER THE PLACE.
WE'VE ALREADY SEEN HOW
IN THE NORTH THE NUMBER
OF SEATS IS GOING
TO GO DOWN.
IN EASTERN ONTARIO AND
SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO
THE NUMBER OF SEATS ARE
GOING TO GO DOWN.
NIAGARA PENINSULA, WHERE
YOU TWO GUYS REPRESENT
RIGHT NOW, NUMBER
OF SEATS GOING DOWN.
LET'S FLIP UP TORONTO
HERE BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY
THAT'S WHERE MOST OF
THE PEOPLE LIVE,
AND THEY MIGHT
WANT TO SEE.

A new series of coloured maps appears on screen under the title of "Metro Toronto" and "Suburban Toronto." The image shows a satellite view of the territory with areas covered in blue, red and green respectively.

Steve continues
HERE'S METROPOLITAN TORONTO,
29 SEATS CURRENTLY.
NOW, ONCE THE CHANGES
COME IN IN TIME FOR THE
NEXT ELECTION, IT'S
GOING DOWN EIGHT TO 21.
SO YOU'VE GOT 29
POLITICIANS NOW FIGHTING
FOR 21 SEATS IN
THE NEXT RIDING.
MAKE FOR SOME
INTERESTING FIGHTS.
NOW, FLIP IT OVER
AGAIN, BLAIR,
AND LOOK AT
SUBURBAN ONTARIO.
THESE ARE THE REGIONS
OUTSIDE METROPOLITAN TORONTO.
AND THEY'RE
ACTUALLY GAINING.
EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE
PROVINCE IS LOSING,
AND THIS OF COURSE IS
A BASTION OF TORY
SUPPORT RIGHT NOW.
19 SEATS CURRENTLY, THEY'RE
GOING TO GET THREE MORE.
IT WILL ACTUALLY BE 22
SEATS AFTER THE ELECTION.
WHICH RAISES THIS QUESTION,
AND WE WOULDN'T WANT
TO IMPUGN MOTIVES HERE
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT,
BUT IT JUST SO HAPPENS
THAT THIS REDISTRIBUTION
DRAMATICALLY FAVOURS
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY.
COINCIDENCE, RIGHT?
IT IS A
COINCIDENCE RIGHT?

Hugh says THE FEDERAL
CONSTITUENCY MAP FOR ONTARIO
IS BASED ON
REDISTRIBUTION DONE
BY THE GOVERNMENT
OF CANADA.

Steve says RIGHT.

Hugh continues
THE PROVINCIAL MAP IS JUST
BEING IMPOSED RIGHT ON TOP.

Richard says AND THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT CAN'T COUNT,
AND THEY CAN'T READ THE
FEDERAL MAPS EITHER.
THEY CAN'T
POSSIBLY KNOW.

Peter says
IT ABANDONS THE NORTH,
AND IT TREATS AGAIN,
THE NORTH WITH
GREAT DISDAIN.
MIKE HARRIS AND THE
TORIES CONSIDER THE NORTH
TO BE IRRELEVANT.
AND THEY'VE DEMONSTRATED
THAT BY ELIMINATING
A LARGE NUMBER OF
REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE NORTH.
AND NIAGARA REGION, ONE
OF THE LARGEST REGIONAL
MUNICIPALITIES IN ONTARIO,
AN AREA THAT'S BEEN HARD HIT
BY FREE TRADE
AND THE RECESSION,
AND DE-INDUSTRIALIZED, HIGH
LEVELS OF UNEMPLOYMENT,
HAS ITS REPRESENTATION
REDUCED FROM SIX PEOPLE
DOWN TO FOUR.
I THINK THAT'S
NEGLIGENT.

Steve says CAN I MAKE ANOTHER
SUGGESTION HERE.
AND AGAIN, I WOULD NEVER
WANT TO IMPUGN MOTIVES,
AS YOU KNOW.
IF THESE CHANGES
GO INTO ACCOUNT,
LET'S SAY THESE CHANGES
WERE IN EFFECT
FOR THE LAST ELECTION.
YOU'D HAVE LOST.
HE'D HAVE BEAT YOU.
IF YOU TAKE THE
RESULTS IN WHAT -
WHAT DO THEY CALL
THE NEW RIDING?
THE NEW WELLAND
THOROLD LINCOLN,
WHATEVER THAT NEW RIDING
IS GOING TO BE THAT YOU TWO
ARE GOING TO CONTEST,
IF YOU TAKE THE SAME
ELECTION RETURNS,
SHEEHAN BEATS KORMOS.

Peter says
THE PROBLEM IS FRANK
SHEEHAN WASN'T RUNNING
AGAINST ME IN THE
LAST ELECTION.

Steve says I UNDERSTAND.

Peter continues
NIAGARA CENTRE RETAINS THE
BULK OF WELLAND-THOROLD.
NIAGARA CENTRE RETAINS THE
BULK OF WELLAND-THOROLD.
I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT
ELECTION PROSPECTS
FOR THE FUTURE.
I'M WORRIED ABOUT MIKE
HARRIS' DISDAIN
FOR REPRESENTATIVE
DEMOCRACY.

Steve says
HERE'S MY POINT THOUGH,
HERE'S MY POINT.
THE NDP TAKES A KICKING
UNDER THIS FORMULA.
IN FACT, THEY'RE NOT EVEN
AN OFFICIAL PARTY
ANYMORE UNDER
THIS FORMULA.

Ruth says
CAN I ADD TO THAT?
NOT ONLY DO WE TAKE A
KICKING UNDER THIS FORMULA,
BUT I THINK THERE'S A
MORE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE
THAT THIS WHOLE
MOVE DEMONSTRATES.
AND THAT IS THE MOVE
AWAY FROM POLITICKING,
OR CAMPAIGNING ON SERVICE
TO YOUR CONSTITUENCY,
INTO A CENTRALIZED
MARKETING APPROACH.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT
WORK YOU'VE DONE IN YOUR
RIDING, THE WHOLE CAMPAIGN
OF THE CONSERVATIVES
WAS RUN, I'M HERE TO
TESTIFY, ON THE BASIS
OF THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION, AND A CENTRALIZED
KIND OF CORPORATE
MARKETING CAMPAIGN.
THAT IS MUCH EASIER IN
LARGER RIDINGS WHERE
THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER
HAS NO IDENTITY WITH
THE COMMUNITY BECAUSE THE
COMMUNITY IS TOO BIG.

Frank says REDISTRIBUTION IS
NOT A NEW IDEA, RUTH.
REDISTRIBUTION HAS
HAPPENED AT LEAST TIMES
IN MY LIFETIME
THAT I KNOW OF.

Ruth says NEVER DOWN.
ALWAYS INTO MORE
RIDINGS.

Frank says THAT'S FINE.

Ruth says IT'S CALLED REP
BY POP, FRANK.

Frank continues THAT'S FINE.
BUT REP BY POP IS GETTING,
DOES NOT REFLECT CURRENT
STATUS OF COMMUNICATING.
IT DOESN'T FOLLOW.
THERE'S TOO MUCH
GOVERNMENT.
THEIR PERFORMANCE
IS ABOMINABLE.
IT'S ABYSMAL.

Peter says
FRANK, YOU GUYS
ARE SO HIGH-TECH.
YOU'RE DOING HIGH-TECH
HOSPITAL SHUTDOWNS,
YOU'RE DOING HIGH-TECH
DOWNLOADING,
YOU'RE DOING HIGH-TECH
PRIVATIZATION,
SORRY, YOU GUYS
ARE SO HIGH-TECH.

Hugh says
SO YOU'RE SUGGESTING
THEREFORE,
LEAVE EVERYTHING,
HEALTHCARE SYSTEM,
THE TAX SYSTEM, THE
RIDINGS THE WAY THEY WERE,
AND JUST SEE THE
PROVINCE SPEND ITSELF
INTO COMPLETE INSOLVENCY
SO THERE'S NO
SOCIAL SERVICES FOR
ANYBODY IN ONTARIO.
THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE
SUGGESTING.
THAT'S THE OTHER
SIDE OF THAT COIN.

Peter says THE AGENDA OF THIS
GOVERNMENT IS TO SHUT DOWN
HOSPITALS AND GENERATE
DEBTS OF OVER 5 BILLION DOLLARS
A YEAR, NEW DEBT, JUST TO
PAY OFF ON A PHONY TAX SCHEME.

Hugh says THE AGENDA OF THIS
GOVERNMENT IS TO PAY OFF
THE DEBTS THAT THE
PETERSON CREATED,
AND YOU MADE WORSE.

Peter says
IT'S TO PROVIDE A PHONY TAX
BREAK TO THE RICHEST
IN THIS PROVINCE; YOU KNOW
BETTER THAN THAT, HUGH.

Ruth says WHAT'S THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
THE NUMBER OF MPP
AND THE DEBT?

Hugh says HE RAISED
THE DEBT.
HE STARTED IT.

Richard says
WELL, IF YOU WANT
TO PAY OFF THE DEBT,
FIRST OF ALL,
STOP THE TAX CUT,
PAY OFF THE DEBT FIRST,
THEN GIVE PEOPLE A TAX CUT.
SECONDLY, THE IMPORTANT
QUESTION IS WHAT DOES
THIS HAVE TO DO WITH
REDUCING THE DEBT?
VERY LITTLE IF ANYTHING.
THIS IS A
SYMBOLIC ISSUE.
IT PLAYS WELL, AS RUTH SAID
AT THE VERY BEGINNING
OF THE PROGRAM, BUT
THAT'S ALL IT DOES.
IT CREATES MORE PROBLEM
THAN IT'S WORTH.

Hugh says
HOW DOES QUEEN'S PARK
MAKE A SERIES OF CHANGES
THAT HAVE TO BE MADE AND
SAY, BY THE WAY, SAY,
AS FAR AS WE'RE
CONCERNED, NO CHANGE
IS APPROPRIATE OR
NECESSARY.
EVERYTHING IS GOING
TO STAY IT WAS.
IT DOESN'T HOLD WATER.

Peter says
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BELIEVE
IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.
AND IT'S DEMONSTRATED
THAT OVER THE COURSE
OF THE LAST YEAR
AND A HALF.

Richard says
RATHER THAN CUTTING
REPRESENTATION.

Frank says PETER, YOUR
GOVERNMENT DIDN'T EVEN
CALL THE LEGISLATURE FOR
TEN MONTHS OF THE LAST
YEAR YOU WERE IN POWER.
SO WHAT ARE YOU TALKING
ABOUT DEMOCRACY?
OR WAS IT NINE MONTHS?
I FORGET WHAT THE EXACT
NUMBER OF MONTHS WAS.

Ruth says THE OTHER THING THAT
HAS HAPPENED IS A CUTTING
OF THE ABILITY OF MPPs TO
SERVE THEIR CONSTITUENTS
BY CUTTING BACK ON THEIR
MAIL AND THEIR REPORTING.
MAYBE THAT WAS JUSTIFIED,
BUT IT ALL SPEAKS
TO LESSENING THE
ABILITY OF THE MEMBER
TO DEAL DIRECTLY WITH
THEIR CONSTITUENTS.
AND I THINK THAT'S
UNFORTUNATE.

Steve says
LET ME ASK THIS,
THEN, FRANK.
LET'S ARGUE THERE IS
SIMPLICITY IN GOING
WITH THE SAME BOUNDARIES
FEDERALLY AND PROVINCIALLY,
AND THERE IS A CERTAIN
LOGIC TO THAT.
THOSE NUMBERS ARE
EIGHT YEARS OLD.
THE POPULATION CENSUS UPON
WHICH ALL THE MAPS
ARE BEING DRAWN NOW
ARE EIGHT YEARS OLD.
WOULD IT NOT, IF YOU WANT
TO TALK ABOUT MODERNITY,
AND YOU TALK
ABOUT HIGH-TECH,
SHOULDN'T YOU USE SOMETHING
A LITTLE MORE CURRENT
TO MAKE YOUR JUDGMENTS?

Frank says
I THINK HERE YOU'RE
LOOKING AT AN AVERAGE,
HERE I'LL GIVE
YOU THE NUMBERS,
51,000 IN BRITISH
COLUMBIA.
THAT'S THE
POPULATION PER REP.
ALBERTA, 33,
SASKATCHEWAN, 17.

Steve says YOU'RE TALKING
ONE ELECTED MEMBER
PER 55,000 PEOPLE.

Frank continues
THESE NUMBERS DO NOT
REFLECT MODERN MEANS
OF COMMUNICATION, DO NOT
REFLECT THE FACT
THAT WHAT'S ALREADY
HAPPENING UNDER IN THE NORTH
IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE
BEST DEALS GOING BECAUSE
THE MEMBER SPOTS A
MAN IN HIS COMMUNITY,
AND HE BECOMES
THE FOCAL POINT,
AND HE RELATES ANY OF THE
NECESSARY PROBLEMS BACK,
LIKE MURDOCH SAYS,
GIVE US A CALL,
AND WE'LL GET ON
THE SITUATION.

Ruth says WHY DO WE JUSTIFY
PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND
WITH A GOVERNMENT,
WITH SENATE SEATS -

Hugh says
THAT'S BEYOND THE PURVIEW
OF THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO.
WE CAN'T DO
ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.

Frank continues
WHAT WE CAN DO IS WE
CAN CONTROL SOME
OF THESE NUMBERS
IN OUR PROVINCE.
AND I PERSONALLY
CAMPAIGNED WE HAD TOO MANY
POLITICIANS, AND I GOT BETTER
THAN 50 SOME-ODD PERCENT
OF MY RIDING, AND
OBVIOUSLY THEY THOUGHT
IT WAS A PRETTY
GOOD IDEA.

Richard says SO WHAT WILL THE
NUMBER BE IN ONTARIO?
WHAT WILL BE
THE RATIO?

Steve says 90 OR
100,000, RIGHT?

Frank says IT'S UP
ABOUT 5 PERCENT.
BECAUSE WE HAVE
A HIGHER RATIO,

Richard says
THEN THAT EXAMPLE IN
NORTHERN CANADA YOU
TALKED ABOUT, WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE A BETTER DEMOCRACY?

Frank says I DON'T THINK SO.
WE HAVE SUCH A HUGE
CONCENTRATION OF PEOPLE
IN A VERY SMALL AREA.

Steve says ONE AT A
TIME, ONE AT A TIME.

Frank continues
WE HAVE A VERY HIGH
CONCENTRATION OF PEOPLE
IN SOUTHERN ONTARIO THAT
ALLOWS FOR SOME OF THESE
REORGANIZATIONS TO
WORK BETTER BECAUSE
THE PEOPLE ARE CONCENTRATED
CLOSER TOGETHER,
COMMUNICATION IS EASIER,
YOU DON'T HAVE
THE GEOGRAPHIC PROBLEMS.
YOU DO HAVE HUGE
ONES IN THE NORTH.
AND I THINK THE VIDEO MADE
THAT VERY, VERY CLEAR.
AND YOU HAVE TO ALLOW FOR
EXPENSES AND ACTIVITIES
SO THE MPs CAN
DO THAT JOB.
BUT ROCKS AND TREES AND
MOUNTAINS ACTUALLY
DON'T VOTE,
IT'S PEOPLE.
AND CONSTITUENCY
ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD
BE BASED UPON THE AMOUNT
OF PEOPLE IN A RIDING,
AND HAVE SOME
MEASURE OF PARITY.
THE FEDERAL MAP IS OUT OF
DATE BECAUSE IT ALWAYS
IS ON A KIND OF SLIPSTREAM
BASIS FROM THE OLD
DECENNIAL CENSUS, BUT
WE'RE STILL GOING TO BE FAR
MORE MODERATE, IF YOU
WISH, AND FAR MORE
CONTEMPORARY BY
REFLECTING THAT MAP.

Ruth says SO WOULD YOU IGNORE
REGIONAL DIFFERENCES?
WOULD YOU WEIGHT THE NUMBER
OF MPPs TO THE NORTH
SO THAT THE NORTH
HAS A VOICE?
OR WOULD YOU GO
STRICTLY REP BY POP
AND HAVE THESE
HUGE RIDINGS?

Hugh says
MY VIEW WOULD BE TO GIVE
THE NORTHERN MEMBERS
THE KIND OF FINANCIAL SUPPORT
THEY NEED SO THEY
CAN REACH GREATER PARTS
OF THEIR CONSTITUENCY AND
MAINTAIN A COMMUNICATIONS
NET SO THEY CAN DO THEIR JOB.

Steve says HERE'S WHAT
I WANT TO KNOW.
REMEMBER TRUDEAU'S
DYING DAYS IN OFFICE,
AND YOU SAW THIS
ORGY OF PATRONAGE
AS HE WAS TRYING - YOU
KNOW THERE ARE A LOT
OF TORY VERSUS TORY - WE'VE
GOT A TORY VERSUS NDP-ER HERE,
BUT THERE ARE A LOT
OF TORY VERSUS TORY CASES
WHERE YOU'VE GOT THREE
TORY SEATS FOLDING INTO TWO.
NOW, I GUESS, I DON'T
KNOW WHAT HAPPENS THERE?
DOES PREMIER HARRIS MAKE A
LOT OF APPOINTMENTS
HERE TO TAKE CARE
OF THESE MPPs?

Ruth says I THINK THEY'LL GET
APPOINTED TO A VARIETY
OF BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS
BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION

Hugh says THERE WON'T BE ANY
MORE COMMISSIONS LEFT.
I THINK THOSE POLITICS
ARE GONE, THANK GOODNESS.

Steve says YOU DON'T
SEE THAT HAPPENING?

Hugh says
THERE'LL BE FIGHTS.
IF PEOPLE WANT TO
STAY IN PUBLIC LIFE,
THEY'RE GOING TO BE
FIGHTING FOR NOMINATIONS,
AND IT'S GOING
TO BE DIFFICULT.
AND IN SOME RESPECTS,
UNPLEASANT,
BUT THAT'S WHAT
DEMOCRACY IS ABOUT.

Ruth says DO YOU WANT TO
PLACE A BET ON THE NUMBER
OF TORY TO TORY FIGHTS
THERE ACTUALLY ARE?

Steve says
THERE'S A GREAT ONE,
I'LL TELL YOU WHAT,
THERE'S ERNIE EVES, MIKE
HARRIS AND BILL GRIMMETT
THERE ARE THREE GUYS
GOING FOR TWO SEATS.
I WONDER WHO IS GOING
TO WIN THAT FIGHT?
I WONDER WHO THE TWO
SURVIVORS OF THAT
ONE IS GOING TO BE?
SOMETHING TELLS ME
HARRIS AND EVES
ARE GOING TO
MAKE IT THERE.

Frank says THAT'S A
TOUGH ONE, STEVE.

Ruth says
THE RUMOUR IN MY
RIDING IS THE SPEAKER,
THE HONOURABLE CHRIS
STOCKWELL IS GOING TO
MOVE INTO LAKESHORE TO
CHALLENGE FOR NOMINATION
OF MORLEY KELLS,
AND IN RETURN
WILL BE IN THE
NEXT CABINET.
SO ALL SORTS OF DEALS
ARE BEING BOOTED AROUND.

Richard says
A GREAT PUBLIC SERVICE
COULD BE THEN
ACCOMPLISHED AT
THAT POINT.

Hugh says A BATTLE BETWEEN
KELLS AND STOCKWELL
LEAVES ME SPEECHLESS.

Steve says THAT WOULD
BE A FIRST FOR THAT.
YOU WANT TO TELL US IN THE
LAST 30 SECONDS ABOUT
SOME OF THE GREAT FOOD
FIGHTS THAT ARE GOING ON
IN CAUCUS RIGHT
NOW, FRANK?

Frank says THERE AREN'T ANY GREAT
FOOD FIGHTS GOING ON.

Steve says OH, COME ON.

Frank continues
NO, I'M SERIOUS.
WE SIGNED ON.
WE KNEW WHAT THE DEAL
WAS WHEN WE WENT
FOR THE NOMINATION.
AND EVERYBODY THAT GOT
ELECTED UNDERSTANDS
THE RULES OF THE GAME.
AND AS YOU SAID THERE WILL
BE SOME VERY INTERESTING
BATTLES, AND THAT'S GOOD
BECAUSE THAT WILL SERVE
THE PEOPLE OF THE
PROVINCE A LOT BETTER.

Steve says LAST ONE TO YOU.

Peter says STEVE, LIKE THE
FLY ON THE WALL,
I CAN HEAR THE PREMIER NOW
SAYING, DON'T WORRY GUYS,
I KNOW WE'RE IN FREE FALL,
BUT JUST STICK WITH ME,
WE'RE GOING TO
PULL THIS OFF.
HORSE FEATHERS.
THEY'RE DONE LIKE
DINNER IN METRO TORONTO,
AND MOST PARTS
OF ONTARIO.

Frank says QUITE THE CONTRARY.
WE'RE QUITE CONFIDENT.

Steve says WE'RE DONE LIKE
DINNER IN TERMS OF TIME.
PETER KORMOS AND
FRANK SHEEHAN,
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING
HERE FOR THIS DISCUSSION.
GANG, WE'LL SEE YOU
AGAIN NEXT TIME.

A slate reads "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1."

Steve says
NOW, WE'D APPRECIATE YOUR
VIEWS ON OUR PROGRAM,
SO WRITE TO US
IF YOU WOULD AT:
OR IN CYBERSPACE:

A new slate reads "Internet address, 4th_Reading@tvo.org."

Steve continues
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #88