Transcript: Show #89 | Mar 02, 1997

The opening sequence rolls.

In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.

Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS
WEEK, COUNTDOWN
TO MEGACITY
REFERENDUM.

A fast clip shows a ballot ticket that reads "City of Toronto. March 3rd, 1997."

Al Leach is in his early sixties, clean-shaven and with short straight white hair. He wears a gray suit, white shirt and printed tie.

Al says I MAY BE PUBLIC ENEMY
NUMBER ONE TO SOME,
BUT I'M ALSO A POPULAR
GUY WITH THE PEOPLE
THAT WANT TO SEE TOUGH
DECISIONS MADE.

A fast clip shows images of protestors holding banners that read "Vote No Megacity."

Steve says PUBLIC OPINION POLLS
SAY THE NO SIDE IS HEADING
FOR A BIG VICTORY.
BUT WILL IT MAKE
A DIFFERENCE?

Steve and 3 guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He wears a dark brown polo T-shirt and a gray blazer.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
AND WELCOME TO A SPECIAL
REFERENDUM EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
STARTING TOMORROW, THE
SIX MUNICIPALITIES
THAT STILL MAKE UP
METROPOLITAN TORONTO
WILL BEGIN COUNTING
THE BALLOTS.
THE QUESTIONS, OF COURSE,
DO THE PEOPLE WANT
TO AMALGAMATE THOSE
SIX CITIES INTO ONE
BIG NEW TORONTO?
ALL INDICATIONS ARE THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT'S
MEGA PLANS FOR THE
MEGACITY ARE IN
FOR A RUDE REJECTION.
STILL, THE MINISTER IN
CHARGE OF THE CREATING
THE MEGACITY SAYS IT'S
DAMN THE TORPEDOES,
FULL STEAM AHEAD.
IN THE MOMENT, A DEBATE
HERE IN STUDIO ON THE
ADVISABILITY OF IGNORING
REFERENDUM RESULTS.
FIRST, THOUGH, A
CONVERSATION
WITH MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
MINISTER AL LEACH.
IT HAS BEEN A TOUGH
WEEK FOR LEACH.
A COURT RULED IT WAS
ILLEGAL FOR THE GOVERNMENT
TO HAVE APPOINTED
THOSE THREE TRUSTEES
TO OVERSEE THE
MEGACITY TRANSITION.

The interview rolls.

Steve says A JUDGE SAYS IN THE COURT
GENERAL DIVISION SAYS
YOUR TRUSTEES
ARE ILLEGAL.
I'M JUST WONDERING WHETHER
ALL OF THESE THINGS,
WHICH YOU'LL GRANT ME ARE
FAIRLY EXTRAORDINARY,
GIVE YOU PAUSE FOR THOUGHT
ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING?

Al says THE RECENT COURT DECISION
BY THE JUDGE SAID
YOU COULDN'T PASS
ORDERS IN COUNCIL UNTIL
THE LEGISLATION
WAS PASSED.

Steve says RIGHT.

Al says THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO
MOST OF OUR LEGAL PEOPLE.
I'M NOT ALONE IN THAT.
I THINK THE SAME SET OF
CIRCUMSTANCES APPLIES
TO THE EDUCATION
TRUSTEES, FOR EXAMPLE,
THAT ARE APPOINTED, SO
WE'RE REVIEWING THAT.
BUT THAT DECISION IN
ITSELF DOESN'T AFFECT
THE LEGISLATION.
IT CAUSES NO CHANGES AT
ALL TO THE LEGISLATION
THAT'S BEFORE COMMITTEE
AT THE PRESENT TIME.

Steve says IT MEANS YOUR
TRUSTEES CAN'T DO THEIR JOBS.
THE JOBS YOU
APPOINTED THEM TO DO.

Al says WELL, THEY
CAN'T DO IT -

Steve says UNTIL THE
BILL IS PASSED.

Al says YEAH, WHICH IS PROBABLY
GOING TO BE IN THE
NEXT THREE OR FOUR WEEKS.

Steve says BUT YOUR
OPPONENTS, OBVIOUSLY,
ARE TAKING THIS AS A
SIGN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

Al says WELL, THEY CAN TRY AND
MAKE THAT CONNECTION,
BUT I OBVIOUSLY
DISAGREE WITH IT.
AND BY HAVING THE
TRUSTEES COME TO POWER
WHEN THE LEGISLATION IS
PASSED, DOESN'T CHANGE
THE LEGISLATION AT ALL.
AS A MATTER OF FACT,
THE LEGISLATION STATES
THAT THEIR POWERS
COULD BE RETROACTIVE.
THAT'S AN AMENDMENT
WE'RE LOOKING AT.
I DON'T THINK WE HAD
TO MAKE IT RETROACTIVE
THEY WERE WORKING WITH
THE CITIES AND HAVE
INDICATED EVERYTHING
IS IN ORDER.

Steve says SO WILL YOU CHANGE THE
POWERS OF THE TRUSTEES,
IN FACT?
HAVE YOU MADE
THAT CALL YET?

Al says WE'RE PROPOSING AMENDMENTS
TO THE ROLE OF THE TRUSTEES.
MANY OF THEM, AS A RESULT
OF THEIR ABILITY TO HAVE
BEEN ABLE TO GO OUT AND
TALK TO THE CLERKS
AND TREASURERS AND CAOs
IN THE MUNICIPALITIES,
THEY'VE COME BACK AND
RECOMMENDED A NUMBER
OF AMENDMENTS TO THE
BILL THEMSELVES.

Steve says IS IT FAIR TO SAY
WATERING DOWN THE BILL?
MAKING IT A LITTLE
LESS OBJECTIONABLE.

Al says YEAH, MAKING
IT SOFTER.
FOR EXAMPLE, THEY SAID THEY
DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARY
TO GET MONTHLY REPORTS.
A REPORT EVERY QUARTER
WOULD BE QUITE SUFFICIENT.
THEY DON'T THINK THEY
SHOULD BE APPROVING
EXPENDITURES OF
50,000 DOLLARS, FAR TOO LOW.
IT SHOULD BE AT
LEAST DOUBLE THAT.

Steve says AND YOU
AGREE WITH THAT?

Al says YEAH, THAT'S WHY WE WANTED
THEM OUT THERE WORKING
SO THEY COULD TALK TO THE
MUNICIPALITIES
SO WE COULD BE IN A POSITION
TO GET THEIR ADVICE
AND MAKE SOME AMENDMENTS
IF THEY ARE NECESSARY.

Steve says NOW, YOU KNOW METROPOLITAN
COUNCIL HAS NOW PASSED
ITS BUDGET, AND
I GUESS THE THING THEY
FOUND THE MOST GALLING WAS
THE NOTION THEY HAD TO SET
ASIDE MONEY FROM
THEIR TAX BASE TO LET
THE TRUSTEES DO
THEIR JOB.
IT WAS NOT A TERRIBLY
LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY,
200,000 DOLLARS OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
BUT THEY STILL FOUND THAT
TO BE RATHER GALLING.
DO YOU SHARE THAT VIEW?

Al says WELL, I HEARD THEIR VIEW,
AND WE'RE IN THE MIDST
OF LOOKING AT AMENDMENTS,
AND I'M QUITE PREPARED
TO LOOK AT THAT AS AN
AMENDMENT AS WELL.
IF THE 200,000 DOLLARS IS
SOMETHING THAT
IS EXTREMELY
UPSETTING TO THEM -

Steve says WELL, IT'S
THE PRINCIPLE.
IT'S THE SENSE OF HAVING TO
PAY FOR THEIR OWN FUNERAL.
THAT KIND OF THING.

Al says WE CAN DEAL WITH THAT.
I FIND THOSE THINGS TO BE
MINOR IRRITANTS THAT WE
CAN RESOLVE, AND WE'RE QUITE
PREPARED TO RESOLVE THEM.

Steve says WOULD YOU BET YOUR
HOUSE THAT AT THE END
OF THE DAY, THE NEW,
ONE BIG TORONTO,
WILL BE A CHEAPER,
MORE EFFICIENT PLACE
TO RUN THAN THE
CURRENT SYSTEM?

Al says YES.
THE HOUSE, THE
CAR, THE DOG,
AND EVERYTHING ELSE BECAUSE
I'M FIRMLY CONVINCED
THIS IS THE RIGHT
DIRECTION TO GO IN.
AND ON TOP OF THAT, MY
POLITICAL CAREER, AS WELL.

Steve says WELL, I WAS GOING
TO ASK ABOUT THAT.
DO YOU INTEND TO
RUN AGAIN NEXT TIME?

Al says AT THIS POINT
IN TIME, I DO.
AND I'D BE MORE THAN
PLEASED TO STAND ON
THE RECORD OF THIS
GOVERNMENT AT THIS TIME,
AND RUN A CAMPAIGN ON ALL
OF THE CHANGES WE'VE MADE,
AND PROPERTY TAX REFORM,
EDUCATION REFORM,
SOCIAL SERVICES REFORM,
AND A SINGLE CITY.

Steve says DO YOU KNOW WHERE
YOU'LL BE RUNNING?
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE
RIDINGS ARE ALL CHANGING.

Al says YEAH, WE'VE GOT THE
REDISTRIBUTION OUT NOW.

Steve says SO WHAT RIDING
ARE YOU LOOKING AT?

Al says MY PRESENT RIDING
EXPANDS SOMEWHAT,
MOVES A LITTLE
FURTHER WEST.

Steve says IS IT
ROSEDALE RIDING?

Al says ROSEDALE, YEAH.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THE FOLKS
IN ROSEDALE
ARE GOING TO RE-ELECT
YOU NEXT TIME?

Al says SURE.
AND I'M QUITE PREPARED
TO STAND ON MY RECORD
AND PUT THEM OUT THERE.
BECAUSE I THINK EVERYBODY
AGREES THAT EDUCATION
REFORM HAD TO HAPPEN.
EVERYBODY AGREED THAT
PROPERTY TAX REFORM
HAD TO HAPPEN.
SOME OF THEM DON'T LIKE THE
EFFECT ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL
CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT I THINK
THEY HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT
FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT
WOULD FINALLY MAKE
A DECISION, BITE THE
BULLET, GET OUT THERE
AND TAKE SOME ACTION ON
ALL OF THESE ISSUES.
THESE ARE NOT NEW ISSUES
THAT HAVE COME UP,
OR ARE RECENT BRAINSTORMS
OF THIS GOVERNMENT.
THESE ARE ISSUES THAT
HAVE BEEN WRESTLED WITH
BY ALL THREE PARTIES
WHEN THEY WERE IN POWER.
WHAT YOU'VE GOT NOW IS A
PARTY WITH THE POLITICAL
WILL TO GET THE JOB DONE.
AND I THINK PEOPLE
REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.
AND I THINK THEY ARE GOING
TO BE MORE THAN PREPARED
TO GIVE US ANOTHER TERM.

Steve says WE THANK YOU FOR
YOUR TIME.

Al says OKAY, PLEASURE.

Back in the studio, Steve says MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
MINISTER AL LEACH.
OKAY, JOINING US IN STUDIO
TO DEBATE THE MERITS
OF MEGACITY AND THE
ADVISABILITY OF IGNORING
THE REFERENDUM RESULTS
ARE STEVE GILCHRIST.
HE'S THE CONSERVATIVE
MPP FOR SCARBOROUGH EAST
AND THE GOVERNMENT'S
POINT MAN FOR GETTING
THE MEGACITY BILL
THROUGH THE HOUSE.

Steve Gilchrist is in his early forties, with short straight red hair and a beard. He wears a gray suit, striped shirt and printed tie.

Steve says IN OPPOSITION, TONY
SILIPO, THE NDP MEMBER
FOR DOVERCOURT, DEPUTY
LEADER OF THE PARTY, TOO,

Tony is in his early forties, clean-shaven and with short curly brown hair. He wears glasses, a blue suit, khaki shirt, pattered tie and a yellow pin that reads "No Megacity."

Steve says AS WELL, AND MIKE COLE,
WHO IS THE LIBERAL MEMBER
FOR OAKWOOD.

Mile Colle is in his early fifties, with short wavy gray hair and a graying moustache. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and polka dotted blue tie. He also wears a pin with the legend "No Megacity."

Steve says WE WELCOME THE THREE
OF YOU HERE TODAY.
WE APPRECIATE YOU BEING
HERE FOR THIS DISCUSSION.
OKAY, WE HAVE JUST
HEARD AL LEACH SAY
HE'S GOING TO RUN AGAIN,
IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO,
AND OF COURSE THE
TALK OUT THERE, STEVE,
I'LL GO TO YOU
WITH THIS FIRST,
THE TALK OUT THERE IS
ANY TORY MPP SOUTH OF,
I DON'T KNOW, YORK MILLS,
THAT WANTS TO RUN AGAIN,
THAT'S NORTH TORONTO,
SOUTH OF NORTH TORONTO,
WHO WANTS TO RUN AGAIN, IS
GOING TO GET SLAUGHTERED
NEXT TIME OUT BECAUSE
OF ALL OF THIS.
YOU'RE HEARING THAT
BUZZ, I'M SURE.
WHAT DO YOU
THINK OF THAT?

A caption reads "Steve Gilchrist. P.C M.P.P, Scarborough East."

Steve G. says OH, I CERTAINLY WOULD
AGREE THERE ARE PEOPLE
OUT THERE THAT DIDN'T
VOTE FOR US IN 1995,
AND THEY WON'T VOTE FOR
THE MINISTER
OR ANY OTHER
CANDIDATE IN 1999.
I THINK THERE'S A
SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE
OUT THERE.
IN THE THREE PARTY SYSTEM,
THERE WILL ALWAYS
BE LIBERALS AND NDP.
ON THE OTHER HAND,
THERE ARE PEOPLE,
AND A SIGNIFICANT
PERCENTAGE OF THE PEOPLE
OUT THERE THAT MAY WANT TO
CRITICIZE ANY ONE PIECE
OF LEGISLATION THAT ANY
GOVERNMENT BRINGS FORWARD.
BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THE TOTAL PACKAGE,
YOU ARE STILL GOING TO SAY
THAT WE HAVE DELIVERED
ON OUR MANDATE.

Steve says BUT ARE THE TORIES WRITING
OFF METROPOLITAN -
WELL, ONE NEW BIG TORONTO
FOR NEXT TIME OUT?
FAR FROM IT.

Steve G. says AS A MEMBER FROM
METRO TORONTO MYSELF,
OUR CAUCUS HAS HALF
THE SEATS CURRENTLY.
THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT
PERCENTAGE OF OUR CAUCUS.
WE ALSO HAVE MORE CABINET
MINISTERS HERE THAN
WE HAVE IN ANY
OTHER REGION.
SO CLEARLY, BOTH THE
REPRESENTATION IN CAUCUS AND
IN CABINET IS SUCH THAT THERE
ARE NO FRIVOLOUS DECISIONS
BEING MADE THAT WOULD
COMPLICATE OR IN ANY WAY
PREJUDICE OUR
CHANCES NEXT TIME.
EVERY ONE OF THESE
PIECES OF LEGISLATION
WE BROUGHT FORWARD,
WE BELIEVE IN.

Steve says MIKE, WHAT'S YOUR
VIEW ON THAT?

The caption changes to "Mike Colle. Liberal M.P.P, Oakwood."

Mike says I THINK THE TORIES
HAVE MISCALCULATED.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
THAT ARE MEETING EVERY
NIGHT, IF YOU LOOK AT
THE UNBELIEVABLE TURN AROUND
IN WHAT SEEMED TO BE
A REASONABLE
SUPPOSED PROPOSAL,
THERE'S BEEN A REVOLUTION
IN THE STREETS.
AND THE MOST
UPSET, I'VE FOUND,
ARE THE TORIES
THEMSELVES.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO VOTE
FOR THESE GUYS NEXT TIME.
SO I THINK THEY BASICALLY
THOUGHT BECAUSE
THEY HAD THE THREE
EDITORIAL BOARDS ON SIDE,
THEY COULD DO ANYTHING.

Steve says MEANING
THE STAR, THE SUN,
THE GLOBE AND MAIL.

Mike says EXACTLY.
AND THEY FORGOT
THE PEOPLE.
AND PEOPLE, AGAIN, RIGHT
ACROSS METRO ARE SO UPSET
BASICALLY BECAUSE THEY SAID
THIS IS A GOVERNMENT
THAT WON'T LISTEN.
AND THEY WANT ME TO
VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN?

Steve says YOU HEARD AL LEACH IN
THE BACKGROUND,
HE SAID IT'S NOT A
QUESTION OF NOT LISTENING,
IT'S A QUESTION OF DOING
WHAT HAS TO BE DONE,
AND NOT BEING DISSUADED.
HE'S SHOWING THE GUTS.
THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS.

The caption changes to "Tony Silipo. N.D.P M.P.P, Dovercourt."

Tony says WELL, YOU KNOW, AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE SHOW,
AL WAS, I THINK, KIND OF
SLIPPING AND SAYING
IT'S THE GUYS HE HAS THE
SUPPORT FROM THAT WANT
TO SEE HIM MAKE THE
TOUGH DECISIONS.
MAKING DECISIONS
THAT ARE BAD DECISIONS
ARE NO BETTER THAN NOT MAKING
DECISIONS ABOUT SOME THINGS.
SURE, THE PROBLEMS
HAVE BEEN THERE,
BUT THE DECISIONS THAT
WE'RE SEEING MADE NOW
ARE JUST MAKING THE SITUATION
IN METROPOLITAN TORONTO
AND I THINK ACROSS
THE PROVINCE BECAUSE
THEY'RE DOWNLOADING,
MUCH, MUCH, WORSE.
POLITICALLY, WHAT
THIS IS GOING TO MEAN,
AND I THINK PART OF THE
REASON WHY THE TORIES
ARE PREPARED TO DO THIS
AND TAKE THE HEAT INSIDE
METRO TORONTO IS THAT
THEY KNOW THAT WITH
THE REDISTRIBUTION, THEY
LOSE FIVE OR SIX SEATS
AUTOMATICALLY BEFORE
THE GAME EVEN STARTS.
AND THEY'RE PREPARED
TO SACRIFICE A BUNCH
OF THE OTHERS BECAUSE BY DOING
IT THE WAY THAT THEY'VE
DONE IT, THEY'RE GOING TO
TRY TO KEEP THE SUPPORT
THAT THEY HAVE
IN THE 905 AREA
WHERE THERE'S
ANOTHER 20 SEATS.
AND OUTSIDE IN
THE RURAL AREAS
WHERE PEOPLE LIKE TO
BEAT UP ON TORONTO.
SO I THINK THERE'S,
YOU KNOW, POLITICALLY,
THAT'S THE MACHINATION
THAT'S GOING ON
BEHIND THE SCENES.

Steve says YOU'VE RAISED A COUPLE
OF THINGS HERE THERE.
THERE'S MORE THAN - WHAT
ARE THERE 34 SEATS
IN METROPOLITAN
TORONTO RIGHT NOW?

Steve G. says 30 EVEN.

Steve says GOES DOWN TO 22.
AND YOU SAY SIX TORY
SEATS DISAPPEAR.

Tony says ABOUT THAT.

Steve says YOU'RE SHAKING
YOUR HEAD HERE, NO.

Steve G. says THE MOST YOU COULD ARGUE
IS BASED ON THE CURRENT -
IF NO ONE MOVED MORE
THAN A MILE OR TWO
FROM THEIR CURRENT
CENTRE OF THEIR RIDING,
THERE WOULD ONLY BE THREE,
WORST CASE SCENARIO.
SO AGAIN, BUT THAT STILL
LEAVES US WITH 13 MEMBERS
WHO OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT
GOING TO SUPPORT SOMETHING
IF THEY THOUGHT IT
GENUINELY WOULD PREJUDICE
THEIR RE-ELECTION CHANCES,
AND THOUGHT IT WAS NOT
IN THE BEST INTEREST
OF THEIR TAXPAYERS.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP ON WHAT
YOU LEFT US WITH THERE,
TONY, AND THAT IS
THE SETTING UP.
YOU WON EVERY SEAT IN THE
905 AREA CODE LAST TIME.
ALL THE SEATS IN THAT
BELT OF RIDINGS AROUND
METROPOLITAN TORONTO,
THE TORIES WON THEM ALL.
ARE YOU SETTING UP THROUGH
THIS MEGACITY BROUHAHA
A DYNAMIC WHERE YOU MAINTAIN
YOUR STRENGTH IN THE OUTER
AREAS AT THE EXPENSE OF
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE CITY?

Steve G. says STEVE, I THINK THE
PERCEPTION THAT EVERYONE
OUTSIDE TORONTO HATES
TORONTO IS REALLY UNFAIR.
I DON'T THINK,
ACROSS THIS PROVINCE,
THERE REALLY IS AN
ANTI-TORONTO SENTIMENT.

Steve says SAY THAT AGAIN.

Steve G. says I THINK MANY PEOPLE
HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO LIVE IN
BIG CITIES, BUT THAT
DOESN'T MEAN -

Steve says YOU DON'T THINK THE WHOLE
COUNTRY HATES TORONTO?

Steve G. THEY KNOW TORONTO IS AN
IMPORTANT PART OF THIS PROVINCE.
IT IS THE HEART OF THE
PROVINCE, ECONOMICALLY.
AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO
SUPPORT ANYTHING THAT THEY
SEE WOULD PREJUDICE THAT,
OR WOULD COMPLICATE THE
FUTURE OF THE PROVINCE.
SO I DON'T ACCEPT THE
PREMISE THAT SOMEBODY
IN PICKERING OR MARKHAM WOULD
WANT US TO DO SOMETHING
BAD TO TORONTO
BECAUSE SOMEHOW
IT MAKES THEM BETTER.

Tony says I THINK WHAT THEY'RE
FINDING, STEVE,
IS IN FACT THAT SENSE
PERHAPS ISN'T AS STRONG
OUT THERE NOW AS THEY
THOUGHT IT WAS.
BECAUSE I THINK THAT WAS
ONE OF THE THINGS
THEY WERE CLEARLY
BANKING ON, YOU KNOW,
THE NOTION BY PICKING ON
TORONTO - WHY DO THE
AMALGAMATION ONLY IN
TORONTO IF THE NOTION,
INITIALLY, IF YOU RECALL,
WE'RE GOING TO CUT DOWN
ON POLITICIANS, WHEN IF
YOU LOOK AT THE RATIO,
YOU COULD MAKE A STRONGER
ARGUMENT BY AMALGAMATING
MUNICIPALITIES IN YORK
REGION, FOR EXAMPLE,
AND PEEL REGION, AND YOU
COULD GET RID OF FAR
MORE POLITICIANS, IF
THAT WAS THE ARGUMENT.
BUT OF COURSE IT'S MUCH
EASIER TO BEAT UP ON TORONTO.
AND THEY'RE NOW
FINDING, IN FACT,
PEOPLE ARE RESISTING THAT
BECAUSE THE DOWNLOADING
PIECE THAT'S COME
ACROSS AS PART OF THIS,
WHICH THEY
PACKAGED FOR US,
WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT,
THE PUBLIC IS SEEING
HAS IMPLICATIONS RIGHT
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.

Steve says WHAT'S THE
DOUBLE STANDARD?

Mike says WELL, BASICALLY IN
TORONTO, THE AMALGAMATION
IS BEING IMPOSED AGAINST
THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

Steve says YOU DON'T
KNOW THAT YET.

Mike says WELL, THEY'RE
TRYING TO IMPOSE IT.
I'M GETTING THE STRONG
IMPRESSION THEY ARE
TRYING TO IMPOSE IT.

Steve says YOU DON'T KNOW
IT'S AGAINST THE WILL
OF THE PEOPLE YET.

Mike says WELL, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO
IS WALK UP ANY STREET,
OR GO INTO ANY COFFEE
SHOP IN METRO TORONTO.
YOU HAVE ORDINARY
PEOPLE JUST UP IN ARMS
BASICALLY ABOUT AN ISSUE
AT THE BEGINNING EVERYBODY
THOUGHT WAS JUST SORT
OF A POLITICAL ISSUE.
SO, YOU KNOW, ORDINARY
PEOPLE ARE TOTALLY UPSET
ABOUT THIS, AND THEY
FEEL MOST UPSET
ABOUT THE IMPOSITION.
AND THEY SAY IN THE
905, OR BEYOND THAT,
THERE'S A DIFFERENCE
PROCESS THAT GIVES
THEM TIME, THAT GIVES
THEM FACILITATORS.
BUT HERE IN METRO, THERE
HAS TO BE THIS STATE
OF EMERGENCY WHERE THEY
HAVE TO IMPOSE THEIR WILL
UPON 2.5 MILLION PEOPLE.
PEOPLE ARE GETTING
REALLY UPSET ABOUT THAT.

Steve says IS THAT FAIR TO CALL
THAT A DOUBLE STANDARD?

Steve G. says I THINK IT FAILS TO
RECOGNIZE THE SIGNIFICANT
DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF THE
STATUS QUO IN TORONTO,
AS OPPOSED TO THE
REST OF THE PROVINCE.
IN FACT, 350 OF THE 850
MUNICIPALITIES ACROSS
ONTARIO HAVE SET IN MOTION
THEIR OWN RESTRUCTURING
AND AMALGAMATION TALKS.
HERE IN TORONTO WHERE
WE ALREADY HAVE ONE
HOMOGENEOUS URBAN CENTRE,
SO WE DON'T NEED TO
BALANCE, AS WE STILL
DO IN ALL THE REGIONS,
THE URBAN AND RURAL
DIFFERENCE IN SERVICE
DELIVERY, AND DIFFERENCE
IN REQUIREMENTS
OF GOVERNANCE, WE HAVE
EXACTLY THE SAME EXPECTATIONS
WHETHER YOU LIVE IN
ETOBICOKE OR SCARBOROUGH,
IN TERMS OF GARBAGE
COLLECTION,
IN TERMS OF HOW OUR
STREETS ARE PLOWED,
AND REALLY, THE QUESTION
HERE BOILS DOWN TO
IF THE MAYORS THEMSELVES
WILL NOT COOPERATE
TO FIND THE SAVINGS, WHO
ELSE IS THERE TO DO IT?
AND THE MAYORS
THEMSELVES -
I DON'T THINK
THAT'S THE CASE -
I THINK IT IS, WITH
THE GREATEST RESPECT,
WHEN THE MAYORS
THEMSELVES COME OUT
WITH A REPORT,
LAST FALL,
SAYING 240 MILLION DOLLARS
COULD BE SAVED -

Mike says YOU HAD A GUN
TO THEIR HEAD.

Tony says PUT A GUN
TO THEIR HEADS.
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT
THEM TO SAY?

Steve G. says I THINK IT'S AN INSULT
TO THE MAYORS TO SUGGEST
THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN
THE THINGS THEY SIGNED.

Tony says STEVE, THE POINT IS THIS,
YOU CANNOT JUSTIFY,
IN THE LARGEST METROPOLIS
IN THE PROVINCE
AND THE COUNTRY, IMPOSING
YOUR WILL AS YOU
HAVE TRIED TO DO AND
ARE TRYING TO DO.
IT'S ONE THING TO SAY
THERE HAS TO BE CHANGE,
AND THAT'S WHAT
YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE.
THERE HAS TO BE CHANGE,
NOW LET'S PUT IN PLACE
A PROCESS THAT GETS US TO
WHATEVER CHANGES NEED
TO BE MADE, AND INVOLVE
PEOPLE IN THAT DISCUSSION.
THAT'S THE WAY YOU
SHOULD HAVE DONE IT.
THAT'S THE AMALGAMATION
IS HAPPENING IN VIRTUALLY
EVERY OTHER PART OF THE
PROVINCE WHERE THERE
IS A CLEAR INDICATION WE
WANT TO SEE SOME CHANGES.

Steve says IT'S BOTTOM UP.
IT'S BOTTOM UP AS
OPPOSED TO TOP DOWN.

Tony says THAT'S RIGHT.
THEN YOU INVOLVE
PEOPLE.
HERE, YOU'VE HIDDEN IT FROM
US FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS,
EVEN THOUGH THE DECISION
CLEARLY WAS MADE BEFORE.
THEN YOU SPRING
IT, YOU KNOW,
WITH THIS ONE-CITY NOTION,
GOING AGAINST EVERYTHING
THAT'S BEEN REPORTED
IN ANY MAJOR STUDY,
INCLUDING YOUR OWN TRIMMER
COMMISSION REPORT,
OF WHICH AL
LEACH WAS A PART,
AN THEN YOU EXPECT PEOPLE
TO JUST SWALLOW THAT?
THAT'S WHY PEOPLE
ARE SO RILED UP.

Steve says CAN I DO A
LITTLE MATH HERE?
MATH WAS NEVER MY STRONG
SUIT IN HIGH SCHOOL,
BUT LET ME GIVE
THIS A WHIRL HERE.
THE NEW MEGACITY WILL
HAVE 44 POLITICIANS
RUNNING A CITY OF 2.3
MILLION PEOPLE.
NOW, IF YOU WERE TO
USE THAT SAME FORMULA
OF X NUMBER OF POLITICIANS
PER NUMBER OF PEOPLE,
BASICALLY, YOU'VE
GOT NORTH BAY THEN
TO BE RUN BY ONE PERSON.

Steve G. says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says WOULD MIKE HARRIS
GOES FOR THAT?
ONE MUNICIPAL POLITICIAN
IN ALL OF NORTH BAY.

Steve G. says THERE'S SOME PRETTY OBVIOUS
RULES ABOUT CONTROLLING
CORRUPTION AND ANY KIND
OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES
WITHIN A COUNCIL.
THERE'S A MINIMUM SIZE
SET, AND THE SIZE IS FIVE.
SO THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE FIVE
COUNCILLORS IN NORTH BAY.
THEY'RE PAID
8,300 DOLLARS A YEAR.
THEY HAVE NO STAFF,
AND THEY'RE PART-TIME.
I THINK THERE'S

Steve says TEN, THOUGH.
THERE'S TEN MUNICIPAL
POLITICIANS IN NORTH BAY.

Steve G. says I THINK THERE'S FIVE.

Mike says THERE'S TEN.

Steve G. says WELL, WE'RE AGREE
TO DISAGREE ON THAT.
THERE'S ONE FOR EVERY
5,000 IN NORTH BAY.
I DO KNOW THEY MAKE
8,300 DOLLARS A YEAR
AND THEY'RE PART-TIME.

Mike says IT'S NOT A MATTER OF
HOW MUCH THEY GET PAID,
IT'S A MATTER OF PEOPLE
HAVING REPRESENTATION.
IT HAS TO DO BE
REPRESENTATION, STEVE.
IT HAS TO DO WITH
PEOPLE HAVING A VOICE.

Tony says THE COUNCILLORS IN
EAST YORK ARE PART-TIME.
YOU'VE GOT THOSE
KIND OF, YOU KNOW,
HOW YOU RESPOND
COMMUNITY BY COMMUNITY
IS EXACTLY THE WAY
IT SHOULD BE DONE.
AND AGAIN, STEVE, I
THINK THE POINT IS HERE,
THERE IS NO RESPONSE
THAT'S APPROPRIATE
FROM THE GOVERNMENT
TO THE COMMUNITY
THAT IS THE GREATER
TORONTO AREA.

Steve G. says FOR EVERY PERSON
THAT CITES NORTH BAY,
THEY CONVENIENTLY LEAVE
OUT THAT MISSISSAUGA
ALREADY, ALREADY, EVERY
COUNCILLOR THERE,
REPRESENTS 64,000
PEOPLE, AND THEY SIT
ON THE REGIONAL
COUNCIL AS WELL.

Steve says THIS IS THE
MISSISSAUGA THAT WANTS TO
SEPARATE FROM PEEL,
IS THAT RIGHT?

Tony says SO FIX THAT.
DON'T CREATE A PROBLEM IN
METRO TORONTO BECAUSE
OF THE PROBLEMS IN
MISSISSAUGA.

Steve G. says FIX IT?
IT PROVES COUNCILLORS
CAN DO THE WORK OF
REPRESENTING 64,000 PEOPLE
BECAUSE MANY OF THEM,
IN FACT MOST OF THEM,
I THINK, LAST TIME,
WERE RE-ELECTED.

Tony says UNDER THE SYSTEM YOU'RE
PUTTING IN PLACE,
YOU COULD PROBABLY HAVE
TWO COUNCILLORS
AND DO ALL THIS WORK.

Mike says JUST APPOINT ONE
COUNCILLOR FOR ALL OF METRO.
YOU KNOW, PUT HARRIS
IN CHARGE, OR LEACH,
AND JUST HAVE HIM MAKE
ALL THE DECISIONS.
THAT'LL BE A HELL
OF A LOT CHEAPER.
DO THAT.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT
THE REFERENDUM RESULTS,
THE BALLOTS OF WHICH WILL
START TO BE COUNTED
THIS MONDAY.
IF 30 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE
COME OUT AND PARTICIPATE
IN THIS REFERENDUM, WHICH
IS ABOUT WHAT YOU GET
FOR MUNICIPAL
ELECTION CAMPAIGNS,
WILL YOU TWO ADMIT
HE'S PROBABLY RIGHT,
AND THERE'S NOT THAT
MUCH FIRE OUT HERE?

Steve points at Steve G.

Mike says WELL, LISTEN, AGAIN,
IF ANYBODY THINKS
THERE'S GOING TO BE 30
PERCENT TURNOUT,
AGAIN, THEY'RE NOT
ON THE STREETS.
THIS IS GOING TO BE
A MASSIVE TURNOUT.

Steve says MASSIVE MEANING?

Mike says YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE
50-60 PERCENT
IN SOME MUNICIPALITIES.
RECORD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE
VOTING BECAUSE PEOPLE,
AS I'VE SAID, FEEL THIS
IS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG,
AND IT'S MUCH DIFFERENT
THAN A MUNICIPAL ELECTION.
SO AGAIN, EVERYBODY
IS UNDERESTIMATING
ORDINARY PEOPLE ON THIS.
AND THEY ARE SO FULL OF
A DESIRE TO PARTICIPATE
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW WHY?
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS THE
GALL TO TELL THEM
WE DON'T CARE
WHAT YOU SAY.
AND EVEN IF YOU SAY
IT, WE'RE NOT GOING
TO LISTEN TO YOU.
SO EVEN SOME PEOPLE MAY
HAVE BEEN IN FAVOUR
OF AMALGAMATION, WHEN
THEY HEARD MIKE HARRIS
AND AL LEACH TELL THEM
THEY WERE GOING TO IGNORE
THEIR VOTE, OR THEY WEREN'T
GOING TO PAY ATTENTION -

Steve G. says MIKE, WE
NEVER SAID THAT.
AND I WOULD CHALLENGE YOU
TO SHOW CATEGORICALLY,
CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW
WHERE IT'S BEEN SAID.
WE SAID IT WOULDN'T BE
BOUND BY A REFERENDUM.
AND YOU KNOW FULL WELL
THERE'S NO LAW IN THIS
PROVINCE THAT CAN
MAKE A PROVINCIAL
ACCEPT THAT SORT
OF DECISION.
WE CAN'T BE BOUND.
THERE IS NO LAW THAT
PROVIDES THAT FRAMEWORK.

Mike says YOU'RE JUST PLAYING
WITH SEMANTICS.

Steve G. NO, MIKE, YOU ARE.
WE HAVE NEVER SAID
WE WON'T LISTEN.
AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE
GOT 100 HOURS OF -
YOU'RE CHANGING
YOUR MIND NOW.
THAT'S WHY ON DECEMBER
17, THE TIMEFRAME
WENT TO APRIL 1ST.
THERE'S A LOT OF RHETORIC,
AS THERE IS WITH
ALL PIECES OF LEGISLATION,
BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS,
OBVIOUSLY, WE RECOGNIZE
THIS WAS A BILL
THAT WAS GOING TO GENERATE
A LOT OF FEEDBACK.

Mike says NO, YOU DIDN'T.
YOU UNDERESTIMATED
THE PEOPLE.
YOU UNDERESTIMATED THE
PEOPLE'S REACTION
TO YOUR ANTI-DEMOCRATIC
APPROACH.

Steve says ONE AT A
TIME, GUYS.
ONE AT A TIME.

Mike says YOU TOTALLY UNDERESTIMATED
THE PEOPLE ON THIS.
AND THAT'S WHY WHEN YOU
TRIED TO RAM THIS THROUGH
BEFORE CHRISTMAS, YOU
DIDN'T THINK PEOPLE
WOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT
IT WAS ALL ABOUT.
BUT PEOPLE FOUND OUT WHAT
IT WAS ABOUT BECAUSE
DESPITE YOUR CONTROL
AND PARTNERSHIP
WITH BIG MEDIA, ORDINARY
PEOPLE ORGANIZED,
AND YOU DIDN'T THINK
PEOPLE WOULD ORGANIZE.
AND THEY HAVE, AND
THEY'VE SURPRISED YOU
AND EVERYBODY ELSE.

Steve says CAN I PICK UP ON WHAT
THIS IS ALL ABOUT,
BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S
A WONDERFUL ISSUE HERE.
THIS WAS ALL
SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT
THE AMALGAMATION
OF TORONTO.
IT HAS TURNED INTO A
REFERENDUM, FRANKLY,
ON YOUR GOVERNMENT,
ACTUAL VALUE ASSESSMENT,
YOUR REDUCTION OF
THE SCHOOL BOARDS,
YOUR DOWNLOADING
ONTO PROPERTY TAXES.
THIS HAS TURNED
INTO ONE HUGE ISSUE.
AND AMALGAMATION HAS
GOT LOST IN THE SHUFFLE.

Steve G. says WHAT DOES A "NO."
VOTE MEAN, STEVE?

Steve says A "NO" VOTE MEANS YOU
SHOULD LISTEN, STEVE.

Steve G. say TO WHICH OF THOSE BILLS
THAT STEVE JUST MENTIONED?

Tony says TO ALL OF THOSE.
BECAUSE YOU'VE PACKAGED
THEM TOGETHER.
YOU'VE PUT THEM
TOGETHER.

Steve G says SO IF 10 PERCENT
OF THE POPULATION

Steve says ONE AT A
TIME, GUYS.

Tony says NO, YOU BETTER LISTEN TO
WHAT PEOPLE ARE GOING
TO TELL YOU ON MONDAY.
BECAUSE I THINK THE
TURNOUT, STEVE,
IS GOING TO BE
RESPECTABLE.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
IT'S GOING TO 40,
50, 60 PERCENT,
WHATEVER IT IS,
BUT I THINK WHATEVER IT
IS, THE ANSWER IS GOING
TO BE QUITE CLEAR, AND THE
ANSWER IS GOING TO BE NO.
AND IT'S GOING TO BE NO TO
WHAT YOU ARE DOING BOTH
BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU
ARE DOING BECAUSE
OF THE SHIFTING DOWN TO
THE TAX BASE OF THINGS
THAT DON'T BELONG THERE, LIKE
HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES
IN PARTICULAR, AND
LONG TERM CARE,
AND IT'S GOING TO MEAN,
IT'S GOING TO BE SAYING NO
BECAUSE OF THE WAY IN
WHICH YOU'VE DONE IT.
THE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC NATURE
OF THE WAY IN WHICH
YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS ACTED
ON THIS IS JUST SO CRYSTAL
CLEAR IN PEOPLE'S MINDS
THAT YOU DO HAVE PEOPLE
WHO ARE SAYING, YOU
KNOW, TAKEN ALONE,
THE MEGACITY MIGHT BE
SOMETHING I MIGHT ACTUALLY
THINK WOULD BE A GOOD
IDEA, BUT DAMN IT,
NOT THE WAY YOU'RE
TRYING TO IMPOSE IT.
AND THEY ARE GOING
TO SAY NO TO THAT.

Steve says ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT
BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT
HAS ANNOUNCED ALL OF THESE
DIFFERENT THINGS AT ONCE
IT HAS THE POTENTIAL, THE
AMALGAMATION I'M SPEAKING OF,
TO BE LOST IN
ALL OF THOSE ISSUES?

Steve G. say OH, I THINK IT HAS BEEN
LOST IN MANY MINDS.
AND IN FACT THE FOCUS HAS
BECOME THE DOWNLOADING,
IT'S BECOME
PROPERTY TAX REFORM,
IT'S BECOME
EDUCATION REFORM.
WE HEAR IT IN THE
LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE HEARINGS.
THERE HAVE BEEN MANY
PEOPLE THAT HAVE COME IN
AND SAID, FUNDAMENTALLY
I'M NOT OPPOSED
TO AMALGAMATION, BUT AND
THEN WILL GO ON TO TALK
ABOUT A DOWNLOADING BILL.
AND BY THE WAY, THERE ARE
NO DOWNLOADING BILLS.
PROPOSALS HAVE BEEN MADE,
AND WE'RE GETTING FEEDBACK
FROM PEOPLE, BUT THERE
IS NO LEGISLATIVE
INITIATIVE TO DOWNLOAD.

Steve says AS WE TRY TO UNDERSTAND
THE POLITICAL STRATEGY
OF YOUR GOVERNMENT AND
WHY IT WOULD ANNOUNCE
THINGS IN THE ORDER
AND IN THE AMOUNT
IN WHICH IT HAS, WOULD
YOU AGREE YOU PROBABLY
SHOULD HAVE JUST TACKLED
THE MEGACITY ISSUE
ALONE, AT FIRST, SO IT
DIDN'T GET CAUGHT UP
IN EVERYTHING ELSE?

Steve G. say IMAGINE THE IRONY.

Steve says YOU MIGHT
HAVE WON THAT.

Steve G. say BUT THE SUGGESTION
INHERENT IN THAT IS THAT
WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TOLD
PEOPLE ALL OF THE ISSUES
THAT WE HOPED TO DEAL WITH
IN THE SPRING SESSION.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE
RESPONSE WOULD HAVE BEEN
IF WE HAD DONE
AMALGAMATION BY ITSELF,
FINISHED IT, AND THEN
BROUGHT FORWARD SOMETHING.

Steve says THE FLIPSIDE IS
YOU WOULD HAVE GOT
A CLEAR ANSWER ON
A CLEAR QUESTION.

Steve G. says YOU'D HAVE GOT A
CLEAR ANSWER ON THAT,
BUT YOU'D THEN HAVE GOT
THE ACCUSATION WE WEREN'T
LAYING OUT THE WHOLE
VISION OF HOW WE SAW,
THE PROVINCE, NOT
THE CITY OF TORONTO,
THE PROVINCE BEING CHANGED
IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

Steve says HE'S RIGHT ABOUT
THAT, ISN'T HE?
YOU'D HAVE NAILED HIM
ON THAT, WOULDN'T YOU?
AS AN OPPOSITION MEMBER
YOU'D HAVE NAILED HIM ON THAT.
IF THEY DID IT
THAT WAY.

Mike says THE THING IS, THE
MEGACITY IS CONNECTED
WITH THE SCHOOL
BOARD DISMANTLING.
YOU CAN'T DO ONE
WITHOUT THE OTHER.

Steve G says OH, OF
COURSE YOU CAN, MIKE.

Mike says SO THEY COULDN'T BASICALLY
STOP ONE OF THE SCHOOL
BOARDS FROM OPERATING
UNLESS YOU GOT RID
OF ALL OF THEM AT ONCE,
SO THEN YOU HAD THIS NEW
MEGA-SCHOOL BOARD
WITH THE MEGACITY.
AND THE DOWNLOADING YOU
COULDN'T DO BY ITSELF
BECAUSE IN ESSENCE, YOU
COULD HAVE DISPARITY
BETWEEN THE SIX CITIES.
SO IT'S A PACKAGE.
BUT I THINK THE CENTRAL
THING PEOPLE ARE UPSET
ABOUT IS THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT IS IMPOSING
A FORM OF GOVERNMENT UPON
THEM AT THE LOWEST LEVEL,
WHICH IS THE MOST
DEMOCRATIC LEVEL,
AND SAYING, WE
KNOW WHAT'S BEST,
AND WE DON'T WANT
TO LISTEN TO YOU.
AND I THINK WHETHER YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT DOWNLOADING,
OR THE TAX ISSUE, MORE
FUNDAMENTAL TO WHAT PEOPLE
ARE UPSET ABOUT, I FIND,
IS THEY'RE BEING TOLD
THAT THEIR SYSTEM OF LOCAL
GOVERNMENT'S TOTALLY
BEING ERADICATED, AND A
NEW ONE'S BEING IMPOSED.
SO THE AMALGAMATION ISSUE
IS THE CENTRAL ISSUE
IN MOST PEOPLE'S MINDS.
AND OTHER ISSUES HAVE
ACCENTUATED THEIR CONCERN,
BUT AT THE HEART OF IT
IS PEOPLE DON'T LIKE
TO BE DICTATED TO.

Steve says LET ME ALSO RAISE
WITH YOU, TONY,
AND I HEAR THIS EVERY NOW
AND THEN ON THE STREETS
WHICH IS THERE IS
A MAGGIE THATCHER,
GET RID OF THE GREATER
LONDON COUNCIL
ASPECT TO SOME OF THIS.
EVERYBODY KNOWS
MUNICIPAL POLITICS,
THE NDP IS DEEPER INTO
MUNICIPAL POLITICS
THAN IT IS INTO THE OTHER
TWO LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT.
AND THIS IS A WAY OF A
CONSERVATIVE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT DOING A
NUMBER ON AN NDP
LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
I DON'T KNOW, IS
THAT A STRETCH?

Tony says NO, NO, IT'S
PART OF IT.
IT'S PART OF IT.
AND I THINK AGAIN THE
GOVERNMENT MISCALCULATED
BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY
COULD JUST PAINT IN
EFFECT THE OPPOSITION TO
THE MEGACITY AS JUST
BEING SOME LEFT WING
NUTS ON ONE SIDE.
AND THEY'RE
DISCOVERING, IN FACT,
IT'S A WHOLE BROADLY
BASED CITIZENS' MOVEMENT
THAT'S GOING ON.
BUT I THINK THE
OTHER THING, TOO,
WHERE THEY MISCALCULATED
IS THEY ACTUALLY THOUGHT
SOMEHOW, EVEN THOUGH THEY
WERE THE ONES THAT LINKED
THE ISSUES TOGETHER, THAT
SOMEHOW PEOPLE WOULD BE
SO RILED UP ABOUT THE
MEGACITY THAT THEY WOULD
SORT OF KIND OF FORGET
ABOUT THE REST OF THE ISSUES.
AND THEY MIGHT LOSE.
SO IT WAS ON THE ONE HAND,
IT WAS KIND OF A MIX KIND OF
APPROACH BECAUSE FOR
THEM IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT THE MEGACITY HAPPEN IN
ORDER FOR THE DOWNLOADING
TO BE MOST EFFECTIVE,
FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE,
IN METROPOLITAN TORONTO,
BECAUSE TO DO MARKET VALUE
ASSESSMENT, IT'S A LOT
EASIER TO DO IT IF YOU'VE
GOT ONE CITY THAN IF YOU
HAVE SIX DIFFERENT CITIES.
TO IMPOSE ALL THE OTHER
KINDS OF CHANGES
THEY ARE GOING TO DO,
THE DOWNLOADING,
WITHOUT HAVING INDIVIDUAL
MUNICIPALITIES GO BANKRUPT,
THEY WILL BE IN BETTER
SHAPE TO DO THAT.

Steve G. says THEY DIDN'T GO BANKRUPT
WHEN THEIR 20 PERCENT
PORTION OF THE WELFARE
INCREASED BY 1 BILLION DOLLARS
IN THE TERM OF THESE TWO
GENTLEMEN'S RESPECTIVE
GOVERNMENTS IN THE TEN
YEARS PRIOR TO US.
THEY WENT UP OVER
1 BILLION DOLLARS,
AND NOT ONE CITY WENT
BANKRUPT ANYWHERE
IN THIS PROVINCE.

Mike says THEY MANAGED.
METRO HAD A HECK OF A
HARD TIME, I'LL TELL YOU.

Tony says THAT'S WHEN THEY
WERE PAYING 20 PERCENT,
NOT 50 PERCENT AS THEY ARE
GOING TO BE PAYING NOW.

Steve G. say THEY WENT UP 1 BILLION DOLLARS
UNDER THE STATUS QUO.
SINCE THEN, UNDER
THE STATUS QUO,
THEY'VE GONE DOWN
300 MILLION DOLLARS.
AND THEY'LL
CONTINUE TO GO DOWN,
AS THE REFORMS
TO WELFARE -

Mike says THEY WENT UP
LAST MONTH AGAIN.

Steve G. says AS THE REFORMS TO
WELFARE CONTINUE
TO HAVE THE IMPACT OF
GETTING PEOPLE OFF WELFARE.

Tony says LONG TERM CARE
IS GOING TO GO UP.
THE NEXT RECESSION IS
GOING TO MEAN THE
SOCIAL ASSISTANCE IS
GOING TO GO UP.

Steve says GENTLEMEN, WITH JUST A
COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT,
I WANT TO GET INTO
ONE LAST ISSUE HERE
AND THAT IS, ARE
YOU GOING TO VOTE?

Steve G. says NO.

Steve says YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
VOTE IN THE REFERENDUM?

Steve G. says IN THE SCARBOROUGH ONE, I
CANNOT, IN GOOD CONSCIENCE,
JUSTIFY THE ABSOLUTE
NONSENSICAL PUBLIC
OPINION POLL - THE MAYOR
OF SCARBOROUGH HIMSELF,
HAS TWICE, ON CAMERA
IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS,
SAID THIS IS NOT
A REFERENDUM,
IT'S A PUBLIC
OPINION POLL.

Steve says IT'S A PLEBISCITE.

Steve G. says AND I'VE ONE OTHER
PRACTICAL PROBLEM.
THEY HAVEN'T MAILED ANY
BALLOTS TO ANYBODY
IN MY BUILDING.
THE SCARBOROUGH MIRROR
DOES
NOT DELIVER TO APARTMENTS
OR CONDOS IN SCARBOROUGH.
AND THEY USED
THE MIRROR,
THE ANTI-AMALGAMATION
SCARBOROUGH MIRROR,
AS THE VEHICLE
TO DELIVER THE BALLOTS.

Steve says OKAY, IF YOU LATER DISCOVER
THAT SAY 70 PERCENT
OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS
HAVE, IN FACT,
VOTED AGAINST
THIS PROPOSAL,
WILL YOU NOT FEEL A
LITTLE OUT OF STEP WITH
YOUR CONSTITUENTS BY A,
NOT HAVING VOTED, AND
B, NOT HAVING VOTED THE
SAME WAY THEY HAVE?

Steve G. says STEVE, THE OTHER PROBLEM
IN SCARBOROUGH IS THERE
IS NO MECHANISM SO SEE
WHETHER IT IS, IN FACT,
THE CONSTITUENTS IN
SCARBOROUGH EAST,
WHO I WOULD BE THE
FIRST TO AGREE,
I SHOULD BE CHAMPIONING
THEIR CONCERNS.
THERE WILL BE NO
COUNT BY AREA.
THERE WILL BE, IN
FACT, THE BALLOTS
ARE GOING TO BE
DESTROYED IMMEDIATELY.
THERE'LL BE NO CHANCE TO
EVEN GO BACK IN AND
ASK FOR SOMEBODY TO DO
THE CALCULATIONS.
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,
IN ALL THE TOWN HALL
MEETINGS, AND IN
ALL THE LETTERS,
FAXES AND PHONE
CALLS I'VE HAD,
A MAJORITY OF
PEOPLE IN MY RIDING
HAVE EXPRESSED
SUPPORT TO THIS DAY.

Steve says TEN SECONDS TO YOU.
HOW ARE YOU
GOING TO VOTE?

Mike says BASICALLY, I'M GOING TO
VOTE NO BECAUSE -

Steve says AND YOU'RE
GOING TO VOTE.

Mike says NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT
KNOWS IT'S GOING
TO LOSE THE
REFERENDUM.
THAT'S WHY THEY'RE
TRYING TO DISCREDIT IT
AND DISRUPT IT BECAUSE
NOW THEY'RE WHINING
AND SAYING IT'S NOT A
PROPER REFERENDUM.
THEY DIDN'T UPDATE THE
PROVINCIAL VOTERS' LIST.
THEY DIDN'T BASICALLY WANT
TO PARTICIPATE IN IT.
NOW THEY'RE GOING
TO WHINE BECAUSE
THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE.

Steve says TONY SILIPO?

Tony says I'M GOING TO VOTE NO.
PEOPLE, I THINK, ARE GOING
TO VOTE NO IN OVERWHELMING
NUMBERS, AND I THINK THE
GOVERNMENT IS GOING
TO IGNORE THE RESULTS
AT THEIR OWN PERIL.

Steve says THE CONSEQUENCES
OF WHICH WILL BE?

Tony says WELL, THEY'LL BE
DEFEATED FOR SURE
IN THE NEXT ELECTION.
BUT I THINK EVEN PRIOR
TO THAT THE ANTAGONISM
AGAINST THEM WILL GROW IF
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND
THIS IS A NO AGAINST
WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

Steve says I HAVE TIME ENOUGH
LEFT TO THANK STEVE
GILCHRIST, MIKE COLLE
FROM THE LIBERALS,
AND TONY SILIPO
FROM THE NDP.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
FOR BEING HERE TODAY.
AND THAT IS OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
WE, OF COURSE, LOVE TO HEAR
YOUR VIEWS ON THIS SHOW,
SO WRITE TO US,
IF YOU WOULD AT:

A slate appears with a caption that reads "4th Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1"

Steve says OR ON THE INTERNET
IN CYBERSPACE.

Another slate appears. It reads "4th Reading. Internet address: fourth_reading@tvo.org"

Steve says GOT IT.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #89