Transcript: Show #83 | Feb 09, 1997

The opening sequence rolls.

In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.

Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS WEEK...
FEELING THE HEAT.

Michael Code is in his forties, clean-shaven and with shirt straight brown hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

Michael says THE BREAK AND ENTER, AS HE
PUT IT, IS AN EXTRAORDINARY
DEPARTURE FROM THE
TRADITIONS OF NEUTRALITY.

Peter Kormos is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight blond hair. He wears glasses, a black suit and white shirt.

Peter says THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL WAS LYING.

A clip with the caption "N.D.P Caucus footage" shows a man trying to stop a camera man from recording him.

Steve says THE NDP ACCUSES THE
GOVERNMENT OF BULLYING
TACTICS AS MPP PETER KORMOS
IS CHARGED WITH ASSAULT.

Steve, Ruth, Hugh and Richard sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair.

He's wearing a gray woollen suit, a blue shirt and patterned tie.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.

Hugh Seal is in his mid-forties, with short straight brown hair.

Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WELCOME TO
4th READING.
TODAY, REBELS WITH A CAUSE.
PETER KORMOS AND CHRIS
STOCKWELL, TWO OF THE MOST
COLOURFUL CHARACTERS AROUND
THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE BOTH
CONTINUE TO MARCH TO A
DIFFERENT DRUMMER AS THE
SESSION ROLLS ON
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
CHRIS STOCKWELL TO THE SHOCK
OF JUST ABOUT ALL AND THE
DISMAY OF SOME OF HIS
CONSERVATIVE COLLEAGUES HAS
MOVED ON TO BECOME SPEAKER
OF THE LEGISLATURE AS YOU KNOW.
MORE ABOUT THAT MOST UNIQUE
OF PARLIAMENTARY REFEREES IN
A FEW MINUTES.
UP FIRST, PETER KORMOS, THE
NDP MPP, CONTINUES TO TWEAK
THE AUTHORITY'S NOSE
AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY.

Another clip with the caption "N.D.P Caucus footage" rolls. It shows Peter and Shelley going over boxes of files.

Shelley is in her mid-thirties, with chin-length slightly wavy brown hair with bangs. She wears an oversized gray coat and a scarf.

Steve says THIS WEEK HE FACES
AN ASSAULT CHARGE.
THAT FOLLOWS A HIGHLY
PUBLICIZED VISIT TO AN
OFFICE MEANT TO DISTRIBUTE
FAMILY SUPPORT PAYMENTS
TO DIVORCED MOTHERS
AND THEIR CHILDREN.
KORMOS AND NDP MPP SHELLEY
MARTEL BROUGHT A VIDEO
CAMERA TO THE FAMILY SUPPORT
PLAN HEADQUARTERS IN
DOWNSVIEW LAST NOVEMBER.
THEY WANTED TO SHOW THE PLAN
WAS NOT, AS ATTORNEY GENERAL
CHARLES HARNICK
CLAIMED, UP AND RUNNING.
THE TAPE SHOWS THE SECURITY
GUARD TELLING THE TWO
REPEATEDLY TO LEAVE.
THE ASSAULT CHARGE SAYS
KORMOS STEMS FROM THIS
INCIDENT HERE.

The security guard says EXCUSE ME, SIR.
NO, NO, NO, NO.
THIS IS OWNED BY THE

Peter says PEOPLE OF ONTARIO.

The security guard says YES.
BUT I WAS TOLD...

The guard covers the camera lens with his hand.

Steve says THE LEGISLATURE
ERUPTED LATER THAT DAY WHEN
HARNICK SAID THERE HAD
BEEN A BREAK AND ENTER.
THE POLICE HAD BEEN
CALLED IN AND HE KNEW
WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE.
NDP LAWYERS SAY HARNICK
HAS COMPROMISED THE
INVESTIGATION, ONE WHICH
THEY SAY WAS LAUNCHED OUT OF
POLITICAL PARTISANSHIP.

A caption reads "Michael Code. Defence Lawyer."

Michael says THE BREAK AND ENTER, AS HE
PUT IT, IS AN EXTRAORDINARY
DEPARTURE FROM THE
TRADITIONS OF NEUTRALITY
AND QUASI-JUDICIAL INDEPENDENCE
OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FROM
PARTISAN POLITICS.

The caption changes to "Peter Kormos. N.D.P M.P.P, Welland-Thorold."

Peter says AND THE REAL CRIME HERE WAS
WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS
DOING TO THE WOMEN AND KIDS
WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN GETTING
MONEY MONTH AFTER MONTH
AND WHO WEREN'T GETTING IT
BECAUSE THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL WAS LYING.

Steve says WELL, IT IS A RARE EVENT
WHEN AN MPP GETS CHARGED,
SO LET'S GET SOME ANALYSIS
FROM OUR QUEEN'S PARK GANG.
AND HERE THEY ARE.
RUTH GRIER, FORMER CABINET
MINISTER FOR BOB RAE FROM
1990 TO 95.
THE FORMER PARTY PRESIDENT
FOR THE ONTARIO LIBERALS,
NOW OF THE LAW FIRM FRASER
AND BEATTY, RICK MAHONEY,
AND CONSERVATIVE PARTY
ADVISOR, HUGH SEGAL.
WELCOME BACK TO
ONE AND ALL.
WELL, I SHOULD START WITH
YOU, SINCE YOU SAT AROUND
THE CABINET TABLE FOR A
BRIEF TIME WITH PETER KORMOS.
I SUPPOSE THIS DOESN'T SHOCK
YOU THAT HE'S BEEN BUSTED,
BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK?
WHAT DO YOU MAKE
OF ALL THIS?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former N.D.P Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT'S
FAR MORE THAN TWEAKING
AUTHORITY'S NOSE, AS YOU
SAID IN THE INTRODUCTION.
DON'T FORGET THAT FOR
MONTHS, WEEKS, THE
OPPOSITION HAD BEEN
HAMMERING AT CHARLES HARNICK
ABOUT THE FAILURE OF THE
CHANGES TO THE FAMILY
SUPPORT PLAN, GETTING NO
RESPONSE EXCEPT BEING TOLD
DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY.
PHONE THIS NUMBER AND,
YOU KNOW, YOU'LL GET
YOUR SUPPORT PAYMENT.
FOR THOUSANDS OF WOMEN
AND CHILDREN THAT WAS
NOT WORKING.
AND SO BOTH SHELLEY AND
PETER USED THE OPPORTUNITY
TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL DIDN'T KNOW
WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.
AND I THINK THAT WAS THE
ONLY COURSE OF ACTION LEFT
OPEN TO AN OPPOSITION PARTY
TO TRY TO SHOW THAT A
GOVERNMENT HAD FAILED IN
WHAT IT WAS TRYING TO DO.

Steve says YOU'RE A LAWYER.
CHARLES HARNICK IS A LAWYER.
LET ME ASK YOU WHETHER OR
NOT CHARLES HARNICK AS
ATTORNEY GENERAL IS IN
A CONFLICT OF INTEREST
SITUATION HERE.
HE CALLED IN THE
POLICE TO INVESTIGATE.
THAT'S UNUSUAL.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Former Ontario Liberal Party President."

Richard says YEAH.
I THINK WHERE HARNICK GETS
INTO TROUBLE HERE IS IN TWO
UTTERANCES THAT HE DID.
FIRST THING HE DID WAS HE...
THE FIRST FACT, I GUESS, IS
THAT HE CALLED IN THE POLICE
ABOUT THIS INCIDENT THAT
HAPPENED IN SOMETHING
WHICH HE WAS POLITICALLY
RESPONSIBLE FOR, AND THAT
WAS THE REVISION OF THE
FAMILY SUPPORT
PAYMENT THING.
THE SECOND THING HE DID
WRONG, AS MICHAEL CODE SAID,
WHO IS A FORMER ASSISTANT
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL IN
ONTARIO HIMSELF, THAT
THE WORDS HE USED IN THE
LEGISLATURE, BREAK AND
ENTER, AND ASKED KORMOS WHAT
HE DID TO THE SECURITY
GUARD, OR WORDS TO THAT
EFFECT, ARE TELEGRAPHING,
OR COULD BE SAID TO BE
TELEGRAPHING INTENTIONS TO THE
POLICE ABOUT LAYING CHARGES.
I THINK IT'S PROBABLY
INAPPROPRIATE CONDUCT.
HE PROBABLY SHOULDN'T
HAVE DONE IT.

Steve says NORMALLY THE SECURITY
GUARD WOULD CALL THE COPS.
THE COPS WOULD COME AND DO
WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO DO.

Richard says INVESTIGATE, TALK TO
SECURITY GUARD AND SAY
WAS THERE REALLY
AN ASSAULT HERE.
SHOULD CHARGES BE LAID?
I MEAN IF WHAT WE KNOW AND
WHAT WE SEE ON THAT CLIP IS
THE SUM TOTAL OF WHAT
HAPPENED THERE -- AND I DON'T
KNOW THAT IT IS...
THIS IS AN UNFORTUNATE
BIT OF SILLINESS.
THAT'S NOT A
SERIOUS ASSAULT.
IT MAY BE A TECHNICAL
ASSAULT UNDER THE LAW, BUT
I MEAN CLEARLY THERE WAS
NO INTENT TO ASSAULT THAT
SECURITY GUARD.
AND WE'RE WASTING THE COURT'S
TIME HERE, AND WE'RE
TAKING ATTENTION, I THINK,
MOST TRAGICALLY AWAY FROM
THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND
OTHERS WHO REQUIRE SUPPORT
PAYMENTS AND AREN'T
GETTING THEM.
THAT'S THE REAL ISSUE,
NOT WHETHER KORMOS
SHOULD BE CHARGED.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
SO THEN THE QUESTION THEN
BECOMES -- THE ALLEGATION IS
THAT THIS HAS BEEN DONE FOR
POLITICALLY PARTISAN REASONS.
THIS IS THE GOVERNMENT
ATTEMPTING TO SILENCE AN
OPPOSITION MEMBER BECAUSE
THEY DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT
OF HIS MESSAGE, TO WHICH
YOU WOULD SAY WHAT, HUGH?

The caption changes to "Hugh Segal. Progressive Conservative Advisor."

Hugh says I WOULD SAY IT BETTER NOT BE
THE CASE OR ELSE IT COULD
COST THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL HIS CAREER.
IN MY VIEW, AN ASSAULT CHARGE
IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER.
AN AGGRAVATED ASSAULT CHARGE
IS A MORE SERIOUS MATTER.
IN MY VIEW THE DECISION
ABOUT WHETHER THAT SORT OF
THING SHOULD TRANSPIRE
SHOULD BE EXCLUSIVELY
BETWEEN THE POLICE WHO
GATHER EVIDENCE AND THE
CROWN ATTORNEY WHO
ASSESSES THAT EVIDENCE.
AND IF THERE'S ANY EVIDENCE
WHATEVER OF POLITICAL
INTERFERENCE IN THAT PROCESS,
IT'S A VERY SERIOUS MATTER.
IT'S A SERIOUS MATTER
IF IT HAPPENS IN OTTAWA.
IT'S A SERIOUS MATTER IF IT
HAPPENS AT QUEEN'S PARK.
HAVING SAID ALL THAT, I
THINK PETER KORMOS IS ONE
OF THE MOST WONDERFUL
CHARACTERS IN PUBLIC LIFE
WHO WILL TWEAK EVERYBODY'S
NOSE, WHO WILL FIGHT FOR
WHAT HE BELIEVES IN, AND
SOMETIMES IN A FASHION WHICH
IS NOT TERRIBLY CONSISTENT.
BUT WE ACTUALLY DO NEED
PEOPLE LIKE THAT IN THE
PUBLIC LIFE OF ONTARIO IN ALL
THREE POLITICAL TRADITIONS.
AND I'M NOT IN A POSITION
TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT AN
ASSAULT WAS OR
WASN'T COMMITTED.
OBVIOUSLY SOMEBODY
HAS LAID AN INFORMATION.
THE POLICE HAVE ASSESSED
THAT AND THEY'VE TALKED TO A
CROWN ATTORNEY, OR ELSE IF
THEY'RE DOING THEIR JOB,
THEY WOULDN'T BE
LAYING THE CHARGE.
THE LARGER QUESTION THOUGH,
IF I MAY SAY SO, IS THE ONE
THAT RUTH RAISED.
YOU KNOW, EVERY ONCE IN A
WHILE THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD
ADMIT WHEN THEY'VE SCREWED
UP BIG, AND THERE IS NO
QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT ON
THIS FAMILY SUPPORT PROGRAM
WHATEVER THEIR PLAN WAS,
HOWEVER THEY THOUGHT THEY
WERE GOING TO MAKE THINGS
BETTER, UP TO THAT POINT IN
HISTORY, WHEN SHELLEY MARTEL
AND PETER KORMOS WENT TO
VISIT THE SITE OF THE NEW
OFFICE, THERE SEEMED TO BE
NO EVIDENCE OF IMPROVEMENT.
AND I CAN'T FIGURE OUT FOR
THE LIFE OF ME WHY, FOR
EXAMPLE, AS WE ROLL THROUGH
THE CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS, AND
THERE WERE SERIOUS QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHETHER THESE WOMEN
AND CHILDREN WHO HAVE THE
RIGHT TO THIS MONEY -- AND IT
WASN'T TAXPAYERS' MONEY.
IT WAS MONEY COMING FROM
PEOPLE WHO HAD A JUDICIAL
RESPONSIBILITY TO PAY
SUPPORT THROUGH THE SYSTEM.
AND THERE SEEMED TO BE NO
WAY OF GETTING MONEY TO THEM
BEFORE CHRISTMAS.
I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY
A MINISTER OF THE CROWN
DOESN'T PICK UP THE PHONE
AND SAY TO A BANK PRESIDENT
A WHOLE BUNCH OF WOMEN WHO
HAVE A PARTICULAR PIECE OF
IDENTIFICATION ARE GOING TO
SHOW UP IN YOUR BRANCHES.
YOU'RE GOING TO
GIVE THEM THE MONEY.
THEY'RE GOING TO SIGN A
RECEIPT AND WE'RE GOING TO
STRAIGHTEN IT
OUT AFTERWARDS.
THERE ARE A MILLION GOOD
THINGS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN
DONE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE
HUMANITY OF THE PROGRAM
WAS PRESERVED.
NONE OF IT HAPPENED.
I DON'T HOLD THE MINISTER...

Steve says WHAT DO YOU
CHALK THAT UP TO?
POLITICAL INEXPERIENCE?

Hugh says I CHALK IT UP TO... I SUSPECT
THE BUREAUCRACY THAT WAS
BEING PUSHED IN SEVERAL
DIRECTIONS AT ONCE AND
DIDN'T KNOW WHICH WAY TO GO
BECAUSE I ASSUME THAT PEOPLE
IN THE BUREAUCRACY WERE
TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT
THING, AND I SUSPECT -- I
DON'T BELIEVE THAT CHARLIE
HARNICK WOULD STAND UP ON
THE FLOOR OF THE LEGISLATURE
AND WILLFULLY LIE ABOUT HOW
WELL THINGS WERE GOING.
I BELIEVE THAT SOMEONE LED
HIM TO BELIEVE THAT THE
PROGRAM WAS DOING
BETTER THAN IT WAS.

Ruth says I MEAN STILL NOT...
THE PROGRAM IS STILL NOT
FUNCTIONING AND IT WAS
A PROGRAM THAT HAD BEEN
FUNCTIONING WITH
SOME PROBLEMS.
BUT A LOT OF THE WOMEN WHO
WEREN'T GETTING MONEY BEFORE
CHRISTMAS HAD BEEN GETTING IT
FOR YEARS OUT OF THE PROGRAM.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS WITH
YOU, RUTH, BECAUSE YOU'RE THE
ONLY ONE AROUND THIS TABLE
WHO'S WON AN ELECTION,
SAT IN A CAUCUS.

Hugh says UNFORTUNATELY.

Ruth says WELL, YOU COULD TRY.
THERE'S A FEDERAL COMING UP.

Hugh says I APPRECIATE THAT.

Steve says I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT
THE OBLIGATIONS -- THE
OBLIGATIONS A MEMBER.
THE TAPE CLEARLY SHOWS THAT
THE SECURITY GUARD TOLD
KORMOS AND MARTEL TO LEAVE.
AND THAT IF THEY DIDN'T,
HE'D CALL IN A SUPERIOR OR A
POLICE OFFICER AND THEY'D BE
ARRESTED IF THEY DIDN'T LEAVE.
AND THEY STILL DIDN'T LEAVE.
NOW THEY OBVIOUSLY PERCEIVED
THEIR GREATER CALLING AT
THAT MOMENT TO EXPOSE WHAT
THEY PERCEIVED HAD GONE
WRONG WITH THIS PLAN AS
OPPOSED TO OBEYING THE
LETTER OF THE LAW.
WHAT IS THEIR OBLIGATION AT
THAT MOMENT DO YOU BELIEVE?

Ruth says I THINK THEIR OBLIGATION
IS TO REVEAL THE WRONGNESS OF
WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE
AND THEIR OBLIGATION TO...

Steve says EVEN IF THEY MAY
BE BREAKING THE LAW
IN THE PROCESS?

Ruth says WELL, THEY WALKED IN A DOOR.
THEY DIDN'T BREAK IN A DOOR.
A DOOR WAS OPEN.
THEY WENT IN.
THEY BEGAN...

Steve says THEY'RE NOT CHARGED
WITH TRESPASSING.
HE'S CHARGED WITH ASSAULT.

Ruth says WELL, THEY'RE CHARGED
WITH BREAK AND ENTER.
THAT WAS WHAT HARNICK
SAID IN THE HOUSE.
THEY WERE GOING
TO BE CHARGED.

Steve says NO, NO, BUT THAT
HASN'T HAPPENED.
THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.
IT'S ONLY...

Richard says THE ONLY
PERSON WHO'S USED THE WORDS
BREAK AND ENTER SO FAR
IS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

Ruth says BUT I MEAN THE QUESTION
OF WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS AN
ASSAULT, AND AS WE'VE SAID,
IF YOU LOOK AT THAT CLIP,
PETER WAS BECKONING IN THE
CAMERAMAN AND THE GUARD WAS
SAYING, NO, NO, NO.
STAY AWAY -- AND PETER...
BUT THEY WERE
CHATTING AGAIN LATER.
I MEAN IT WAS NOT AN ASSAULT
AS WE COMMONLY KNOW AN ASSAULT.
I THINK THEY HAD AN
OBLIGATION ON BEHALF OF THE
WOMEN AND CHILDREN
WHO WERE BEING
DISENFRANCHISED BY THE
GOVERNMENT FROM THEIR MONEY
TO REVEAL WHAT
WAS HAPPENING.

Hugh says HINDSIGHT IS 20-20 AND I
TAKE A LOT OF WHAT RUTH IS
SAYING AS CORRECT.
I THINK AN MPP WHO THINKS
THERE'S A MASSIVE INJUSTICE
HAS A DUTY TO GET TO THE
BOTTOM OF IT AND BRING IT TO
PUBLIC NOTICE, WHATEVER HIS
OR HER POLITICAL AFFILIATION.
WITH THE BENEFIT OF
HINDSIGHT, I THINK IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN JUST AS POWERFUL
FOR MARTEL AND KORMOS TO
STAND UP IN THE HOUSE ON A
POINT OF PRIVILEGE AND ASK
WHY IT IS THEY WERE
PREVENTED FROM ENTERING A
PUBLIC OFFICE FINANCED BY
THE TAXPAYERS OF ONTARIO
THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
PERFORMING AN IMPORTANT SERVICE.
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A
MORE LEGITIMATE WAY TO GO.

Ruth says IT WAS THE VIDEO THAT
WAS THE POWERFUL THING.

Steve says IF I CAN SPEAK TO THE
THEATRICS OF IT, AND
THEATRICS ARE AN IMPORTANT
PART OF POLITICS, THAT
WOULDN'T BE NEARLY AS
THEATRICAL AND MAYBE NOT
GET THE POINT ACROSS.

Hugh says I DON'T THINK YOU CAN
KNOWINGLY, IF YOU'RE AN MPP...
AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT
ANY OF THIS TRANSPIRED.
I HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO
SUGGEST THAT, BUT I DON'T
THINK YOU SHOULD
KNOWINGLY BREAK A LAW.
I JUST DON'T
THINK YOU SHOULD.

Richard says YEAH, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, THAT
THEY HAVE KNOWINGLY OR
UNKNOWINGLY BROKEN A LAW,
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, KORMOS HAS A
HABIT OF BEING THE CENTRE OF
ATTENTION NO MATTER WHAT
HE DOES, AND PERHAPS THE
THEATRICS -- THE ONLY THINK I
WOULD BE CRITICAL ABOUT IS
PERHAPS THE THEATRICS TAKE
AWAY A LITTLE BIT FROM THE
SERIOUSNESS OF THE SITUATION
THAT HUGH OUTLINED QUITE
ELOQUENTLY I THOUGHT,
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
APPARENTLY RIGHT NOW 34,000
PEOPLE WHO ARE DUE SUPPORT
IN THIS PROVINCE WHO HAVE...
BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET IT
FROM THIS PARTICULAR PROGRAM

- HAVE HAD TO GO ON WELFARE.
PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO
BE GOING ON WELFARE.
PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T
BE BEING...

Hugh says WHICH IS MONSTROUS.
JUST ABSOLUTELY MONSTROUS.

Richard says THAT'S A MORE
IMPORTANT ISSUE THAN WHETHER
OR NOT PETER KORMOS IS
CHARGED WITH ASSAULT.

Hugh says TRUE.

Richard says OR THAT WHETHER OR NOT PETER
KORMOS OR SHELLEY MARTEL OR
ANYONE ELSE GO TO DO A VIDEO
AT THE FAMILY SUPPORT OFFICE.

Ruth says BUT I SUSPECT THERE ARE
VERY FEW ELECTED MEMBERS WHO
HAVEN'T GONE TO AN OFFICE
UNANNOUNCED AND ASKED TO
COME IN AND BEEN TOLD...
TO SEE SOMETHING.
I MEAN I'VE DONE
IT UMPTEEN TIMES.
OFTEN BEEN ASKED TO
LEAVE BECAUSE...

Steve says EVER BEEN BUSTED?

Ruth says NO, NEVER BEEN BUSTED, BUT OFTEN
BEEN TOLD BY SOME PERSON...

Hugh says BUT I SUSPECT
YOU MAY NOT HAVE
SLUGGED ANYBODY.

Ruth says NO, I WOULDN'T
SLUG ANYBODY,
BUT WE DON'T KNOW
THAT PETER DID.

Hugh says WE DON'T
KNOW, THAT'S RIGHT.

Ruth says AND BUT CERTAINLY YOU HAVE
CAUGHT THE BUREAUCRACY OFF
GUARD AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
CONCERNED AND HAVE SAID OH,
PLEASE DON'T COME IN OR I'VE
GOT TO PHONE A SUPERVISOR,
AND YOU'VE SAID I'M AN MPP
AND I WANT TO HAVE A LOOK
FOR MYSELF WHAT IS
HAPPENING, OR I'M A COUNCILLOR.
AND I THINK THAT WAS WHAT
THEY WERE DOING AND NOT
BREAKING ANY LAW
IN DOING THAT.

Steve says ARE YOU
ENTITLED TO DO THAT?
AS AN MPP ARE YOU ENTITLED
ACCESS TO THAT...
DO YOU HAVE SPECIAL ACCESS
BECAUSE OF THAT POSITION?

Ruth says IT WAS NEVER CLEAR.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE
THOSE WHO WOULD SAY, OH
MINISTER, YOU DON'T GOT OFF
THE FLOOR OF WHICH YOUR
OFFICE IS.
WE DON'T WANT YOU TALKING
TO INTERMEDIATES BECAUSE
ETCETERA, AND YOU
DO WANT YOU CAN.

Richard says I WOULD SAY THAT I
DON'T KNOW THAT THERE IS ANY
SPECIAL RULE OF ACCESS, BUT
I WOULD HOPE, AND I BELIEVE,
THAT MPPs HAVE A RIGHT
AS THE TRUSTEES AND THE
GUARDIANS OF DEMOCRACY IN
OUR LEGISLATURE TO VISIT THE
OFFICES OF HER MAJESTY'S
GOVERNMENT SERVICES BUREAU
RIGHT ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
THEY HAVE TO, AS PART OF
THEIR JOB WOULD BE PEOPLE
PHONING THEIR OFFICE SAYING
WHERE IS MY SUPPORT PAYMENT?
I CAN'T GET IT
OUT OF THE OFFICE.
THEY RIGHTLY WOULD GO AND
TRY AND FIND OUT WHAT THE
HELL'S GOING ON.

Hugh says AND CIVIL SERVANTS HAVE THE
RIGHT, MANY OF WHOM ARE PART
OF BARGAINING UNITS AND
UNIONIZED, HAVE THE RIGHT
TO WORK WITHOUT FEAR
OF INTIMIDATION.

Richard says RIGHT, I AGREE.

Hugh says YOU GOT TO BALANCE THAT, AND
I THINK WHAT I SAW HAPPENING
IN THOSE CLIPS WAS AN EFFORT
BY KORMOS AND MARTEL TO
ARRIVE EARLY ENOUGH IN THE
MORNING -- THAT IN FACT THEY
WEREN'T THERE TO INTIMIDATE
PUBLIC SERVANTS WHO MAY HAVE
BEEN WORKING ON THE PROJECT...
BUT JUST TO SEE WHAT THE STATE
OF PHYSICAL ORGANIZATION
IN THE OFFICE WAS.

Richard says AND THEY
FOUND THOSE BOXES.

Hugh says I THINK THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT
POINT OF DISTINCTION.

Steve says I'VE GOT 30 SECONDS HERE
TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHETHER...
I MEAN THE ADVISABILITY OF
THE GOVERNMENT IN DOING THIS.
YOU'RE KIND OF CREATING
PETER KORMOS: MARTYR HERE AGAIN.

Hugh says LET ME TELL YOU
WHERE I'M STARTING FROM.
IF THE GOVERNMENT
POLITICALLY IS INVOLVED IN
THE LAYING OF THESE CHARGES,
IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.
IF IT'S THE POLICE DOING IT,
THE GOVERNMENT IS AS MUCH
OF A VICTIM OF IT
AS ANYBODY ELSE.

Steve says OKAY, STICK AROUND.
I HAVE SOMETHING ELSE I
WANT TO SHOW YOU, FROM ONE
MAVERICK TO THE
NEXT IF YOU LIKE.
THE SPEAKER OF
THE LEGISLATURE.
IT IS A ROLE STEEPED IN
TRADITION, AS THEY SAY,
FILLED BY SOME OF THE MOST
PATRICIAN POLITICIANS AROUND...
UNTIL LAST
OCTOBER THAT IS.
THAT'S WHEN ONE OF THE MOST
RAUCOUS OUTRAGEOUS HECKLERS
IN THE LEGISLATURE TRADED IN
HIS MAVERICK ATTITUDE FOR
THE BLACK ROBES OF
THE SPEAKER'S OFFICE.
SO FOUR MONTHS LATER, HOW'S
CHRIS STOCKWELL DOING ANYWAY?
HAS THE JOB MADE HIM MORE
SERIOUS, MORE AUGUST?
NOT LIKELY.
LESS LIPPY?
YEAH, PROBABLY.
WE CAUGHT UP WITH CHRIS
STOCKWELL EARLIER THIS WEEK
RIGHT AFTER QUESTION PERIOD.

A clip from the legislature shows Chris Stockwell sitting on his chair, looking bored. He’s in his late thirties, clean-shaven and with short receding brown hair. He wears a court robe.

He says IT'S REALLY OUT OF ORDER
TO HECKLE THE SPEAKER.
NO, WELL, NO, YOU
DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING.
YOU YELLED A FEW THINGS BUT
YOU DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING BUT...
[laughing]

An M.P.P says MISTER SPEAKER, YOO HOO!

Chris says DOESN'T TAKE A LOT TO ENTERTAIN
THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE.
[laughing]

Outside the chamber, Steve follows Chris and says
WE'RE FOLLOWING
YOU, I UNDERSTAND.

Chris says YEAH, TO MY OFFICE.

Steve says YOUR OFFICE.
COME ON DOWN.
LEAD THE WAY.
THROW ANYBODY OUT TODAY?

Chris says DARKWING DUCK.
NO.

Steve says IS IT AS GOOD A JOB
AS YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD BE?

Chris says YEAH.
I THINK SO.
IT'S MUCH BETTER THAN
WHAT I WAS DOING.
YOU KNOW, LET'S BE
CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

Steve says YOU HATED
WHAT YOU WERE DOING.

Chris says I HATED IT.
NOT THAT I HATE SERVING
MY CONSTITUENTS.
I LIKE IT, BUT I NEEDED SOME
KIND OF RESPONSIBILITY.
SOME OPPORTUNITY TO
PROVE BEYOND A PERSON IN
OPPOSITION THAT I HAD
ABILITY TO ADMINISTER
SOMETHING, TO PERFORM, TO
BE IN CHARGE OR SOMETHING
AND SEE IT WORK OUT.
WOULD I RATHER
BE IN CABINET?

Steve says WHICH WAS
MY NEXT QUESTION.

They enter Chris’ office.

Chris puts on a tricorne hat.

Chris says OBVIOUSLY, YEAH.
WATCH, IF I CAN WEAR IT LIKE
THIS, GOT THIS ON, AND I
TURN MY HEAD QUICK,
THE HAT DOESN'T MOVE.
SIT DOWN.

Steve says VERY IMPRESSIVE.

Chris says WHAT'S DOING?

Steve says NOW DO YOU WANT TO KEEP
THESE DUDS ON WHEN WE
DO OUR THING OR DO
YOU WANT TO CHANGE?

Chris says NO, I GOT TO GO BACK IN THE
HOUSE SO I MAY AS WELL JUST
LEAVE THEM ON.

Steve says OKAY.
NOW DO WE GET TO TOUR THE
APARTMENT OR WHAT'S THE STORY?

Chris says YOU WANT TO GO?
LET'S GO.

Steve says YEAH.
I'D LIKE TO SEE IT.
I'VE NEVER SEEN IT.

Chris says OKAY.
ON ONE CONDITION.
CAN WE SHUT OFF AND I
HAVE A SMOKE BEFORE WE GO?
THANKS.
YOU GUYS WANT A
COFFEE OR ANYTHING?

Steve says OKAY.

A caption reads "Sandra Pupatello. Liberal M.P.P, Windsor-Sandwich."

Sandra is in her mid-thirties, with mid-length slightly wavy blond hair. She wears a tartan blazer and a hot pink blouse.

She says ARE YOU ROLLING NOW?

Steve says WE ARE INDEED.

Sandra says OKAY.
WELL, I THINK I NEVER
EXPECTED TO GET THE REACTION
TO HAVING CHRIS STOCKWELL AS
SPEAKER AS I'VE BEEN GETTING
EVEN IN WINDSOR.
SO THIS GOES FAR BEYOND
QUEEN'S PARK, AND I HAVE A
LOT OF MY SUPPORTS COME OVER
AND THEY SORT OF -- THEY GET
THIS SHEEPISH LOOK ON THEIR
FACE AND THEY SAY, I GOT TO
TELL YOU.
I KNOW HE'S A TORY, BUT I
REALLY LIKE THAT SPEAKER.
AND THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED,
AND I'M SURE THAT'S
UNPRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY
OF THOSE WHO SIT IN THE
SPEAKER'S CHAIR AND FOR
SOME REASON HE'S MADE IT AN
ABSOLUTELY MAGICAL
PLACE TO BE.
AND I'VE GOT TO SAY I KIND
OF ENJOY HIS SENSE OF
HUMOUR, BUT I ALSO
THINK HE TAKES THE JOB
SERIOUSLY, DOESN'T
LOOK THE PART.
IF YOU LOOK THROUGH ALL THE
HISTORY BOOKS YOU EXPECT TO
SEE A VERY DIFFERENT LOOK
FOR A SPEAKER, AND HE DOESN'T
CERTAINLY FIT THE MOLD.

A clip rolls with the caption "May 12, 1994."

Chris says THE QUESTION THAT STILL
NEEDS TO BE ASKED IS WHERE
IS THE LIBERAL DOCUMENT?
I MEAN THEY HAVE APPARENTLY
A FIVE POINT PLAN.
I THINK IF THEY HAD SIX
FINGERS, THEY'D HAVE A SIX
POINT PLAN, AND THE ONLY
WORDS THAT ARE MISSING IN
THEIR FIVE POINT
PLAN IS ABRACADABRA.

Another clip with the caption "December 16, 1995" shows Chris as at the legislature.

He says WHAT A GRACIOUS LOT
THESE SOCIALISTS ARE!

Steve says DO YOU FEEL WEIRD WALKING
AROUND HERE IN THESE CLOTHES?

Chris says I DON'T, GENERALLY, YOU KNOW.
YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IS
IS THAT YOU END UP GOING
THROUGH THE PLACE IN THESE
CLOTHES AND INVARIABLY TOURS
ARE GOING THROUGH SO THEY
WANT TO STOP AND HAVE YOUR
PICTURE TAKEN
WITH THE SPEAKER.
SO IT BECOMES
A BIT ANNOYING.
SO IF I TEND TO WALK AROUND,
I GENERALLY GET CHANGED.
HI, AL.
HI.
SO, YEAH, I DO FEEL ODD.
IT'S NOT -- IT'S THE
STRANGEST OUTFIT, TOO.
IT'S NOT LIKE
SOMETHING YOU PUT ON.

Steve says IT'S VERY BECOMING.

Chris says I THINK SO.
I'M FILLING IT OUT
IN THE REGAL SENSE.

Steve says LOOK UP AT
THE WALLS HERE.
YOUR PORTRAIT'S GOING TO BE
UP HERE SOMEDAY, CHRIS.

They look at a gallery of former speakers’ portraits.

Chris says MY SON ASKED ME THAT.
HE ASKED ME, AND HE SAID TO
ME, HE SAID WELL YOU GOT TO
GET A GUY WHO PAINTS YOU
AND YOU WON'T LOOK SO OLD.
I SAID NO, NO.
THESE GUYS JUST
WERE
OLD.
SO, YEAH.
IT'S KIND OF NEAT.

Steve says YOU GOT TO BE THE YOUNGEST
SPEAKER BY ABOUT TEN YEARS, EH?

They get on an elevator.

Chris says YEAH.
I THINK THE YOUNGEST MIGHT
HAVE BEEN WARNER WHO WAS IN
HIS EARLY FIFTIES
AT THAT POINT.
IT'S CERTAINLY MORE
DIFFICULT FOR GLORIA
ACTUALLY TRYING TO RUN THIS
APARTMENT BECAUSE NO SPEAKER
EVER HAD LIKE LITTLE KIDS,
SO WHEN WE STARTED TO COME
IN -- BUT WE DON'T USE IT A
LOT, BUT WE DO USE IT FOR
ENTERTAINING WHEN CONSUL
GENERALS COME AND SO FORTH.
SO YOU GOT TO
BRING THE KIDS.
SO, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE HERE
AND THEN YOU MIGHT HEAR IN
THE ROOM ONE OF THEM
SCREAM, YOU'RE TOUCHING ME.
SO YOU GOT TO BREAK AWAY
AND GO INTO THE ROOM AND
STRAIGHTEN THEM OUT.

Steve says THEY DON'T KNOW NOT TO
FIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF
A STATE DINNER?

Chris says THEY TRY NOT TO, AND
THEY DON'T GENERALLY.
I THINK THEY'RE GOOD.
ON WEEKENDS ACTUALLY THEY'VE
BEEN OUT IN THIS HALL
PLAYING FLOOR HOCKEY, SO
THEY WRECKED THE DOORS
ACTUALLY SO WE KIND
OF STOPPED THAT.
SO IT IS MORE AWKWARD FOR
HER I THINK MORE THAN
ANYTHING BECAUSE SHE'S NOT
HAD TO DEAL WITH THEM SO...
AND THEY'RE NOT BIG ON THE
FOOD EITHER THAT YOU GET.

Steve says THEY DON'T LIKE
THE FOOD HERE?

Chris says NOT AT THIS -- NO.
THEY MUCH PREFER
LIKE MCDONALD'S.
SO WHEN THEY BRING IN, YOU
KNOW, YOUR TYPICAL CONSUL
GENERAL DINNER, PFFT.

Steve says DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE.

Chris says LET ME JUST RING
THE DOORBELL.
[doorbell ringing]
I DO HAVE A KEY.
JUST NEVER HAVE IT ON ME.
THANK YOU, GLORIA.

They enter the apartment.

Chris says YOU KNOW STEVE.

Steve says HI, GLORIA.

Gloria says GOOD MORNING, STEVE.

Chris says GLORIA ANSWERS ALL THE
QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS PLACE.
I'LL GIVE YOU A QUICK
TOUR IF YOU WANT.

Steve says OKAY.

Chris says THE ENTRANCE.
THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY THE
AREA WHERE YOU RECEIVE ALL
THE DIGNITARIES AND GUESTS.
WE'VE HAD THEM FROM RUSSIA,
CUBA, SINCE I'VE BEEN ELECTED.
THIS IS THE EATING AREA
WHERE THEY COME IN AND
THAT'S THE KITCHEN THROUGH
THERE AND GLORIA'S OFFICE.
SO THIS IS BASICALLY WHERE
YOU END UP MEETING WITH THE
EATING AND... IT'S
MOSTLY FORMALITIES.
BEING THE SPEAKER NOW AND
LIVING IN ETOBICOKE, IT'S A
DIFFERENT THING FOR ME THAN
PROBABLY 95 PERCENT OF THE
OTHER SPEAKERS, BECAUSE
I DON'T LIVE HERE.
YOU ALSO RUN THE PRECINCTS.
SO THERE'S 400 EMPLOYEES
HERE AND 100 MILLION DOLLAR BUDGET.

They move from the eating room to a living room.

Chris says SO YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE
FOR THAT AS WELL.

Steve says ANY GHOSTS HERE?

Chris says APPARENTLY, GLORIA,
THERE'S WHAT?
HOW MANY?
HOW MANY GHOSTS HERE?

Gloria says PARDON ME?

Chris says HOW MANY GHOSTS
IN THE BUILDING?

Gloria says ABOUT THREE.

Chris says THREE.
THOSE ARE THE STORIES THAT
HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN.
THEY HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME,
BUT PREVIOUS SPEAKERS, THEY
WERE... I KNOW SPEAKER
WARNER, HE WAS CONVINCED
THIS PLACE WAS HAUNTED.
BUT MY FEELING IS THAT
THE GHOSTS WOULD BE MORE
FRIGHTENED OF ME
THAN I AM OF THEM.
SO THAT'S THE
APARTMENT BASICALLY.

Steve says VERY NICE.

Another clip rolls from a previous show and the caption "September 27, 1996."

Steve says WHO'S GOING TO GET IT?
WHO'S GOING TO BE
THE NEXT SPEAKER?

Bill Murdoch says CHRIS STOCKWELL.

Steve says YOU'RE GOING TO
VOTE FOR CHRIS STOCKWELL,
AREN'T
YOU?

Bill says YES.
AND I THINK CHRIS'LL WIN.

Steve says YOU KNOW MURDOCH
PREDICTED ON OUR SHOW
A WEEK BEFORE...

Chris says YEAH, I SAW IT.

Steve says THAT YOU WOULD WIN.

Chris says YEAH.

Steve says AND WE ALL THOUGHT
HE WAS NUTS.

Chris says WELL, YOU SEE... IT'S
FUNNY THIS PLACE.
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I
NEVER REALLY THOUGHT
I WOULDN'T WIN.
AND YOU KNOW, CRAZY AS...
AND I DON'T WANT TO SOUND
EGOTISTICAL OR ARROGANT OR
SELF-SERVING, BUT IT JUST
SEEMED TO ME FROM THE PEOPLE
I TALKED TO AND THE BREAKOUT
OF THE VOTE, AND HOW
EVERYTHING FOLDED IN, IT
SEEMED I HAD A REALLY GOOD
CHANCE AND EVERYONE WAS
SAYING, OH, AND THE OUTSIDER.
THE BIG QUESTION MARK.
I FIGURED I HAD ENOUGH
VOTES FROM MY OWN CAUCUS.
I NEEDED X NUMBER OF VOTES.
I FIGURED I'D GET ALL THE
VOTES FROM THE OPPOSITION
AND WHEN I PUT THAT TO
THAT, WHO COULD BEAT ME?

A clip with the caption "October 3, 1996" rolls.

The caption changes to "Claude DesRosiers. Clerk of the House."

Claude is in his fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears glasses and a court robe.

He says MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE...
YOU HAVE ELECTED AS YOUR
SPEAKER THE HONOURABLE
CHRIS STOCKWELL, MEMBER
FOR ETOBICOKE WEST.
[applause]

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. N.D.P Leader."

Howard is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight blond hair. HE wears a white shirt and red tie.

H says MISTER STOCKWELL HAS HIS
OWN MODE OF OPERATION,
AND IT'S A MODE OF OPERATION
THAT SUITS HIM.
HE IS NOT AFRAID TO SMILE
WHEN SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING
THAT IS FUNNY, BUT HE'S
APPROPRIATELY SERIOUS WHEN
I THINK THE MOOD IS REQUIRED.

Another clip rolls with the caption "January 22, 1997."

Chris says I SAY IN ALL CANDOUR THAT
A READER OF THAT DOCUMENT
COULD BE LEFT WITH AN
INCORRECT IMPRESSION ABOUT
HOW PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY
WORKS IN ONTARIO, AN
IMPRESSION THAT UNDERMINES
RESPECT FOR OUR
PARLIAMENTARY INSTITUTIONS.
FOR THESE REASONS THEN, I
FIND THAT A PRIMA FACIA CASE
OF CONTEMPT HAS
BEEN ESTABLISHED.

Steve says YOU TOLD AL LEACH,
THE MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
MINISTER, THAT HE WAS
SPENDING PUBLIC DOLLARS
IN AN APPROPRIATE WAY.
YOU SIDED WITH THE
OPPOSITION AND EVERYBODY
WAS SHOCKED.
SHOCKED.
HERE'S THE QUESTION.
WHY'D YOU DO THAT?

Chris says BECAUSE IT WAS RIGHT.
IT WAS THE RIGHT
THING TO DO.

Steve says IT'S BEEN RIGHT IN
THE PAST AND SPEAKERS HAVE
NOT DARED TO GO AGAINST THE
PARTY THAT THEY REPRESENTED.

Chris says WELL THEY WERE WRONG.
THE SPEAKERS IN THE
PAST WERE WRONG.
AND I DON'T MEAN TO SAY
THAT IN A DEMEANING SENSE.
SOMETIMES IN THE PAST
SPEAKERS WEREN'T ELECTED
BY THE HOUSE.
THEY WERE APPOINTED
BY THE PREMIER.
AND APPOINTMENTS ARE
DIFFERENT THAN ELECTIONS,
AND YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW WHERE
YOUR BREAD'S BUTTERED WHEN
YOU'RE APPOINTED, AND WHEN
THAT PREMIER DECIDES THEY
DON'T LIKE YOU, THEY CAN
WITHDRAW THAT APPOINTMENT.

Steve says DO YOU MISS
HIM IN CAUCUS?

The caption changes to "Bill Murdoch. P.C M.P.P, Grey-Owen Sound."

Bill is in his fifties with short straight brown hair and a graying beard.

He says OH, YEAH, GREAT.
I REALLY -- LIKE HE WAS
OUR CATALYST FOR THE
BACKBENCHERS TO START
QUESTIONING MAYBE SOME OF
THE THINGS WE'RE DOING AND
YOU COULD ALWAYS, YOU KNOW,
COUNT ON CHRIS TO BRING IT
UP AND STICK BEHIND US.
SO I MISS HIM GREATLY
BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T GOT THAT
OTHER GUY THERE THAT'S SORT
OF THE ONE-TWO PUNCH THAT
YOU CAN ASK THE MINISTER
SOME GOOD QUESTIONS,
AND HE WAS
EXCELLENT IN CAUCUS.
AND THE CONSERVATIVES ARE
POORER THAT HE'S NOT THERE.
THERE'S NO DOUBT.

Steve says DO YOU THINK
MINISTERS ARE GETTING A
FREER RIDE IN CAUCUS
BECAUSE HE'S NOT THERE?

Bill says YES.
THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
HE WASN'T THE ONLY ONE,
DON'T GET ME WRONG, THAT
THERE'S OTHER QUESTIONS AND
THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT CHRIS
SORT OF WAS -- I DON'T KNOW
WHETHER YOU'D WANT TO CALL
HIM A LEADER OR
NOT, BUT YES.
I WOULD SAY OUR LEADER IN
THE BACK BENCHES TO GET SOME
OF THE THINGS OUT THAT WE'D
REALLY LIKE TO ASK, AND HE
WAS NEVER AFRAID TO STAND
UP AND ASK THOSE QUESTIONS.

Steve says WHO'S THERE TO HOLD
THE GOVERNMENT MINISTERS',
YOU KNOW, BACKSIDES TO THE
FIRE NOW THAT YOU'RE GONE?

Chris says IT'S FUNNY, YOU KNOW, WHEN
YOU GET INTO CAUCUS...
IF YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO A
CAUCUS MEETING, IT'S HARD
TO REALLY UNDERSTAND.
THEY COME FROM ALL OVER
DEPENDING ON THE ISSUE.
THERE'S ALWAYS SOMEBODY
WHO'S WILLING TO CHALLENGE
THE POWERS THAT BE, WILLING
TO CHALLENGE THE AUTHORITY
AND THERE ALWAYS
WILL BE PEOPLE.

Steve says HOW DO YOU REPRESENT YOUR
CONSTITUENTS AT A PUBLIC
MEETING IF YOU CAN'T
GIVE YOUR OPINIONS?

Chris says YOU DRAG OUT THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE MAKING THE DECISIONS AND
GIVE THEM ACCESS TO THEM,
AND PROBABLY AS A BACKBENCH
MEMBER OF THE CAUCUS, THAT'S
PROBABLY ALL YOU CAN DO LOTS
OF TIMES.
YOU KNOW.
FRANKLY SAID, IT'S VERY FEW
PEOPLE THAT MAKE DECISIONS
IN GOVERNMENT.
I DON'T NEED TO TELL
YOU THIS, STEVE.
YOU'VE BEEN AROUND THIS
PLACE A LONG TIME.
LOTS OF TIMES THE BEST THING
YOU CAN DO IS BRING THOSE
PEOPLE OUT TO THE PEOPLE AND
LET THEM TELL THEM WHAT YOU
THINK BECAUSE THE CONDUIT'S
NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW.

Steve says HOW DO YOU KNOW
WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T DO?

Chris says WELL, COMMON SENSE...
TO STEAL A PHRASE.
YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW WHEN
YOU CROSS THE LINE.
I THINK SOME SPEAKERS...

Steve says WELL, DAVID WARNER
IN THE LAST HOUSE...

Chris says DID NOTHING.

Steve says APPARENTLY
CROSSED THE LINE.
NO, HE WENT TO AN NDP
PARTISAN FUNCTION AND GOT
CHIDED FOR IT.

Chris says YEAH.
WELL, THAT WAS DUMB.
YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT.
IF IT'S CLEARLY PARTISAN
YOU'RE IN TROUBLE.
AND SOME SPEAKERS, I THINK,
ARE VERY CONSCIOUS OF IT AND
OTHERS ARE LESS SO.
I WOULD NEVER GO TO A
PARTISAN PARTY EVENT.
I MEAN THAT'S CRAZY.
I THINK YOU'RE NUTS TO
DO THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE
COMPROMISING YOUR IMPARTIALITY
HERE, YOUR NEUTRALITY.
SO I WOULDN'T DO THAT, BUT
ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE, SURE.
I WANT TO BE SPEAKER AND
HOPE THAT I CAN DO A GOOD
JOB FOR THIS
THREE-YEAR TERM.
AND I NEVER SAY NEVER, BUT I
DON'T THINK I'D EVER WANT TO
BE SPEAKER AGAIN, SO I HOPE
IT'S INTERESTING ENOUGH TO
HOLD MY INTEREST FOR THE
PERIOD OF TIME THAT I'VE
BEEN ELECTED TO SERVE.

At the legislature, Chris says MEMBER FOR ORIOLE.
MY DAY IS NOW COMPLETE.
COME TO ORDER.

Back in the studio, Steve says WELL, DOES IT DELIGHT YOUR
HEART TO SEE YOUR FELLOW
ETOBIAN DOING SO WELL?

Ruth says LOOK, I HAVE TO SAY THAT I
WAS WRONG IN MY ESTIMATION
AS TO WHETHER CHRIS
WOULD BE A GOOD SPEAKER.
I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR A VERY
LONG TIME, AND I THINK HE'S
DOING -- HE'S
FOUND HIS NICHE.
HE'S GOING WHAT HE DOES AND
HE'S DOING IT VERY WELL.

Steve says AND THE OFFICIAL TORY
POSITION IS THAT HE'S DOING
OKAY NOW?

Hugh says WELL AND THE OTHER IMPORTANT
THING IS WE NOW KNOW WHERE
TO FIND HIM EVERY DAY ON A
REGULAR BASIS, AND THAT'S
A GOOD THING.
HE'S DOING AN
OUTSTANDING JOB.

They laugh.

Steve says RICK?

Richard says I WAS WRONG AS RUTH WAS.
HE LOOKS LIKE THE
FOX IN THE HENHOUSE.
HE LOOKS LIKE HE'S HAVING A
GREAT TIME, BUT HE'S ALSO
DOING A TERRIFIC JOB.

Hugh says INDEED.
TREMENDOUS JOB.

Steve says HEAR, HEAR.
ON THAT NOTE, I THANK THE
THREE OF YOU AND WE'LL SEE
YOU AGAIN NEXT TIME.

Ruth says YES INDEED.
NOW WE ALWAYS APPRECIATE
YOUR COMMENTS ON OUR
PROGRAMS, SO WRITE TO
US IF YOU WOULD AT:

A slate appears with a caption that reads "4th Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1"

Steve says OR IN CYBERSPACE AT:

Another slate appears. It reads "4th Reading. Internet address: fourth_reading@tvo.org"

Steve says I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING
AND SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1997, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #83