Transcript: Show #78 | Dec 08, 1996

The opening sequence rolls.

In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.

Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
ONE BIG CITY.

Al Leach is in his sixties, clean-shaven and with short wavy white hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt and printed tie.

He says WHY DO YOU NEED SIX
FIRE DEPARTMENTS?
WHY DO YOU NEED SIX
PLANNING DEPARTMENTS?

A woman in her sixties says CENTRALIZATION
INCREASES COSTS.

Steve says THE TORIES' PLANS
TO TURN TORONTO INTO A
MEGA METROPOLIS.

Steve, Ruth, Hugh and Richard sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair.

He's wearing a black Polo T-shirt and a burgundy.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.

Hugh Seal is in his mid-forties, with short straight brown hair.

Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says YOU HEARD IT.
ONE BIG CITY.
THE IDEA MAY CONJURE UP
FOR SOME THE IMAGE OF BIG
BROTHER PEERING OVER THEIR
SHOULDERS AT EVERY TURN,
BUT FOR THE CONSERVATIVES
AT QUEEN'S PARK, THE IDEA
CONJURES UP IMAGES
OF BIG SAVINGS.
AFTERNOON EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WELCOME TO THIS EDITION
OF
4th READING.
THERE ARE VARIOUS SCENARIOS
BEING BANDIED ABOUT, BUT IN
ESSENCE, THE TORIES ARE
THINKING ABOUT AMALGAMATING
SIX CITIES IN METROPOLITAN
TORONTO ROLLING THEM INTO
WHAT SOME ARE
CALLING A MEGACITY.
WHAT'S BEHIND THE
MOVE TO MERGE?
WILL IT BE COMING TO A
MUNICIPALITY NEAR YOU?
WE WILL TALK TO THE MAYOR OF
ONE OF THE MOST VULNERABLE
OF THOSE CITIES IN TORONTO,
BUT NOW LET'S PUT THIS ISSUE
INTO CONTEXT.
FOR WEEKS NOW, THE
BUZZ AROUND ONTARIO'S
MUNICIPALITIES HAS BEEN ONE
BIG CITY, BUT THE DEBATE
OVER MUNICIPAL AMALGAMATION
HAS BEEN LOUDEST IN TORONTO
WHERE THE SIX METRO TORONTO
AREA MAYORS HAVE BEEN
IN ONE BIG PANIC.
THEY NEVER SAW IT COMING.
AL LEACH, THE MINISTER
RESPONSIBLE FOR MUNICIPAL
REFORMS ASKS THIS:

Al says WHY DO YOU NEED SIX ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENTS?
WHY DO YOU NEED SIX
FIRE DEPARTMENTS?
WHY DO YOU NEED SIX
PLANNING DEPARTMENTS?

Steve says THE SIX MAYORS
OBVIOUSLY DON'T AGREE.

A caption reads "Frank Fauber. Scarborough Mayor."

Frank is in his late fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight white hair. He wears glasses, a gray suit, striped shirt and printed tie.

Frank says AMALGAMATED GOVERNMENT IS
NOT MORE COST EFFECTIVE
AND DOES NOT SAVE MONEY.
AND INDEED ALL STUDIES SHOW
THAT IT WILL INCREASE COSTS,
INDEED INCREASE TAXES.

The caption changes to "Frances Nunziata. York Mayor."

Frances is in her forties, with short slightly wavy auburn hair. She wears a black blazer and a red pin.

Frances says A BIGGER MEGACITY AND HAVING
THE POLITICIANS FAR REMOVED
FROM THE CONSTITUENCY IS
NOT WHAT THE CITY OF YORK
RESIDENTS WANT.

Steve says THIS IS WHAT METRO
TORONTO LOOKS LIKE NOW.

A map with the caption "Metro Toronto" shows a region that includes Etobicoke, North York, York, Toronto, East York and Scarborough."

Steve says IT'S GOT FIVE CITIES AND
ONE BOROUGH, SIX MAYORS AND
ANOTHER LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT
ABOVE ALL OF THAT CALLED
METRO TORONTO.
TOTAL, 106 LOCAL
POLITICIANS.
UNDER AL LEACH'S PLAN, THE
CITY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT
WOULD BE ELIMINATED ALONG
WITH THE SIX MAYORS.
METRO TORONTO WOULD
BECOME ONE BIG CITY.
IT WOULD HAVE A POPULATION
OF 2.3 MILLION PEOPLE
GOVERNED BY JUST 44
LOCAL POLITICIANS.
LEACH SAYS THE BIG ISSUE IN
ALL THIS IS DUPLICATION.
RIGHT NOW, SOME MUNICIPAL
SERVICES SUCH AS TRANSIT AND
POLICING ARE DELIVERED BY THE
METRO LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT.
OTHER SERVICES, SUCH AS
FIREFIGHTING AND GARBAGE
COLLECTION ARE DELIVERED
SEPARATELY BY EACH OF THE
SIX CITY GOVERNMENTS.
METRO CHAIR ALAN TONKS
SAYS THAT'S A BIG WASTE.
HE RECENTLY TOLD LEACH
AMALGAMATION COULD SAVE THE
PROVINCE HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

Alan Tonks is in his early fifties, with short wavy blond hair and a moustache. He wears a blue shirt and tie and a blue overcoat.

He says ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK THAT IF YOU TAKE
FIRE AS A SEPARATE ENTITY,
COMPARED TO ALL THE OTHER
EMERGENCY SERVICES,
AMBULANCE AND POLICE, AND
YOU LOOK AT TAKING SIX
MUNICIPALITIES OR SIX
ENTITIES AND TRY TO
RECREATE, FOR EXAMPLE, JUST
THE TECHNOLOGY ALONE, THAT IS
IN THE MULTI MULTI
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
TAKE THAT AND BRING IT ALL
TOGETHER AND SHARE IT AND
LOOK AT THE OVERLAP IN TERMS
OF THE SERVICE AND CALL AREAS
FOR YOUR AMBULANCE AND YOUR
FIRE, THERE'S HUGE SAVINGS.
ERNST YOUNG SAID BETWEEN
30 AND 40 MILLION DOLLARS.

Steve says THE PROVINCE RECENTLY
RELEASED A PUBLIC OPINION
POLL TO BACK ITS
PLANS FOR AMALGAMATION.

A slate appears with the caption "Angus Reid Poll. 55 percent support one lever of municipal government. 500 Metro residents surveyed. November 8-9. 4.4 percent margin of error. 95 percent of the time."

Steve says THAT POLL SHOWS 55 PERCENT
OF THOSE SURVEYED THINK A
SINGLE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT
WITH FEWER POLITICIANS IS
A GOOD IDEA.

Another slate reads "Environics Poll. 52 percent oppose Amalgamation. 1000 Metro residents surveyed. November 12-21. 3.1 percent margin of error. 95 percent of the time."

Steve says THE SIX TORONTO AREA MAYORS
RESPONDED WITH THEIR OWN POLL.
THIS ONE SHOWS THAT 52
PERCENT OF THOSE SURVEYED
OPPOSE AMALGAMATION AND 75
PERCENT WANT A REFERENDUM ON
THE ISSUE.

Another slate reads "Environics Poll. 75 percent want a referendum. 1000 Metro residents surveyed. November 12+-1. 3.1 percent margin of error. 95 percent of the time."

Steve says THEY ALSO SAY ELIMINATING
THE METRO LEVEL OF
GOVERNMENT AND FARMING
OUT SERVICES TO THE SIX
MUNICIPALITIES WOULD SAVE
THE PROVINCE HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
BUT FORMER TORONTO MAYOR
JOHN SEWELL SAYS IT ISN'T
ABOUT MONEY.
IT'S ABOUT GOVERNMENT
EXERCISING ARBITRARY POWER.

John Sewell is in his seventies, clean-shaven and balding. He wears glasses and a gray overcoat.

John says I THINK THE MOST INTERESTING
THING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON
ABOUT AMALGAMATION IS
THE PROCESS THAT THE
GOVERNMENT'S INVOLVED
IN, WHICH IS INCREDIBLY
ARBITRARY, HAS NOTHING TO DO
ABOUT DISCUSSION AND SAYING
WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS.
LET'S LOOK AT
THE INFORMATION.
WHAT WE'VE GOT IS A
GOVERNMENT THAT SAYS
THIS IS SOMETHING
WE ARE DOING.
WE DON'T CARE WHAT
ANYBODY HAS TO SAY.
THEY HAVEN'T PRODUCED ONE
SINGLE PIECE OF PAPER
JUSTIFYING THE KIND OF
POSITION THEY'RE PUTTING
OUT, AND THAT'S
THE SCARY THING.

Steve says WELL, ONE OF THE
MUNICIPALITIES ALMOST
EVERYBODY SEEMS TO BE
GUNNING FOR THESE DAYS WHEN
IT COMES TO AMALGAMATION
IS THE LITTLE CITY OF YORK
WITHIN METRO TORONTO.
AND FRESH FROM A DECISION
BY HER OWN COUNCIL TO MERGE
WITH THE CITY OF TORONTO...
WITHOUT HER APPROVAL WE
MIGHT ADD -- IS YORK
MAYOR FRANCES NUNZIATA.
WELCOME.

Frances says THANK YOU.

Steve says AND FOR THOSE OF YOU
WATCHING US OUTSIDE TORONTO
WHO DON'T KNOW, YES, SHE
IS JOHN NUNZIATA'S SISTER.
BACK WITH US THIS WEEK,
HUGH SEGAL, RUTH GRIER,
RICHARD MAHONEY.
YOU OKAY?

Richard says I AM OKAY.

Steve says LONG CONVENTION, RIGHT?

Richard says YEAH.

Steve says WE'LL TALK ABOUT
THAT MORE LATER.

Hugh says I SHOULD TELL YOU -- ACTUALLY
RUTH IS MY SISTER WHICH
WE'VE BEEN KEEPING QUIET
FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

Steve says I DID NOT
KNOW THAT.

Richard says RUTH, I'M ASHAMED.
VERY INTERESTING.

Hugh says WE WERE AFRAID IT WOULD
RUIN HER REPUTATION,
SO WE KEPT IT
VERY QUIET.

Frances says JOHN'S MY BABY
BROTHER.

Steve says JOHN IS YOUR
BABY BROTHER.

Frances says YEAH.

Steve says BAD BOY JOHN NUNZIATA'S
YOUR BABY BROTHER.
LET ME PICK UP ON WHAT JOHN
SEWELL SAID AT THE END OF
THAT BACKGROUND PIECE, WHICH
WAS THAT THIS -- YOU KNOW,
AND ACTUALLY JOHN BARBER IN
THE GLOBE AND MAIL SAYS IT
TOO, THAT THE REAL ANTI-TORY
BASTION IN ONTARIO RIGHT NOW
IS REALLY WITHIN THE
CONFINES OF METROPOLITAN
TORONTO, AND THAT THIS WHOLE
URGE TO A MEGACITY HAS MORE
TO DO WITH TAKING ON THE
PROVINCE THAN IT HAS TO DO
WITH ANYTHING ELSE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

A caption reads "Frances Nunziata. York Mayor."

Frances says NO, I AGREE.
WE HAVE ASKED THE PROVINCE
FOR FIGURES AND TO GIVE THE
MUNICIPALITIES A REPORT,
WHICH THEY'VE BEEN UNABLE
TO GIVE US THAT REPORT.
WE WERE TOLD THAT THE REPORT
WOULD BE PUBLIC ONCE THE
DECISION IS MADE.

Steve says THEY SAY THE DECISION
HASN'T BEEN MADE OF COURSE.

Frances says WELL, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE
PREMIER TOLD ME LAST WEEK.
THE DECISION HAS
NOT BEEN MADE.
MINISTER LEACH, IN HIS MIND,
THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE.
HE WANTS THE MEGACITY, BUT
THE PREMIER TOLD US THAT THE
DECISION HAS NOT BEEN MADE,
THAT ALL THE PROPOSALS ARE
ON THE TABLE AND THAT HE
WOULD CONSIDER IT, EVEN THE
MAYORS' PROPOSALS
HE WOULD CONSIDER.

Steve says IS THIS A MUG'S
GAME THOUGH, MADAME MAYOR?
IS THIS A MUG'S GAME WHEN
YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MY
PROPOSAL'S GOING TO SAVE 280
MILLION, WELL, MY PROPOSAL'S
GOING TO SAVE 250 MILLION.

Frances says I DON'T THINK THEY WANT
TO SAVE ANY MONEY AT ALL.
I DON'T THINK -- WHEN WE
BROUGHT FORWARD OUR PROPOSAL
TO THE PREMIER, IT WAS VERY
WELL RECEIVED, I MUST ADMIT.
HE DID ASK A LOT OF
QUESTIONS, BUT HE DID ASK US
IF WE COULD SAVE
EVEN FURTHER.
SO IT'S NOT HOW MUCH MONEY
THAT THE PROVINCE COULD SAVE
OR HOW MUCH MONEY THE
MUNICIPALITIES COULD SAVE.
IT'S POLITICAL.
THEY WANT TO GET RID OF...

Steve says LET ME PICK
UP ON THAT THEN.
YOU KNOW, MAGGIE THATCHER,
MANY YEARS AGO, GOT RID OF
THE GREATER LONDON COUNCIL
BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT IT WAS A
HOTBED OF LABOUR RIGHTS, AND
SHE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE TO
DEAL WITH THEM ANY MORE.
IS THERE SOME OF
THAT GOING ON HERE?

The caption changes to "Hugh Segal. Progressive Conservative Advisor."

Hugh says ACTUALLY, I
DON'T THINK SO.
I THINK THIS IS A GOVERNMENT
THAT HAS MOVED TO REDUCE THE
AMOUNT OF SEATS IN THE
LEGISLATURE, THE AMOUNT OF
POLITICIANS INVOLVED
AT THE POLITICAL LEVEL.
THEY WANT TO REDUCE TO AN
APPROPRIATE LEVEL THE AMOUNT
OF FOLKS WHO ARE INVOLVED IN
THE SENIOR PUBLIC SERVICE,
BECOME MORE EFFICIENT.
I DON'T THINK IT'S
ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT.
THE REASON, FOR EXAMPLE,
THAT HER WORSHIP'S COUNCIL
WOULD HAVE DECIDED ON THEIR
OWN -- I TAKE IT AFTER SOME
PRETTY CONSIDERABLE DEBATE...
TO WANT TO MERGE WITH
TORONTO IS ALSO BECAUSE ALL
KINDS OF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING
FOR WAYS TO RUN GOVERNMENT
MORE EFFICIENTLY AND MORE
RESPONSIBLY AND TO
ALSO PRESERVE THE BEST
OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

Frances says THAT'S NOT WHY MY
COUNCIL SUPPORTED THAT MOTION.

Hugh says WHY DID
THEY DO IT THEN?

Frances says THEY SUPPORTED THE MOTION
BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL,
MY COUNCIL'S DEMENTED.
THEY'RE DEMENTED.
THEY'RE WACKOS
ON MY COUNCIL.

Steve says YOU MEAN THAT IN THE
BEST SENSE OF THE WORD THOUGH,
RIGHT?

Frances says THEY MOVED THAT MOTION ONLY
FOR POLITICAL REASONS,
SELF-SERVING.
THEY FEEL THAT IF THEY
AMALGAMATE WITH THE CITY OF
TORONTO, THAT THEIR CHANCES
OF BEING RE-ELECTED AS A
COUNCILLOR RATHER THAN A
MEGACITY WHERE THEY WOULD
HAVE TO COMPETE AGAINST
METRO COUNCILLORS, THEY FELT
THAT THIS WAS THE
EASIEST WAY TO GO.
THEY TOOK THE
SUICIDE CHOICE.
THEY WANT TO
BE RE-ELECTED.
THEY'RE AFRAID.
THEY'RE AFRAID THAT WITH THE
MEGACITY, WHICH AL LEACH
WANTS, IS THAT THEY -- NUMBER
ONE, THEY'LL BE COMPETING
AGAINST THE MAYOR.
THEY'LL BE COMPETING
AGAINST THE CHAIRMAN.
THEY'LL BE COMPETING AGAINST
ALL THESE METRO COUNCILLORS
THAT WOULD OBVIOUSLY WIN
IN THE MEGACITY ELECTIONS.

Steve says SO THIS IS JUST
ABOUT NOT DRINKING KOOL-AID
POLITICAL STYLE.

Frances says THEY DON'T CARE.
THEY DON'T CARE.
THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT
THEIR CONSTITUENCY.
WE DID A POLL, AN ENVIRONICS
POLL, IN THE CITY OF YORK,
AND THE QUESTION THAT WAS
ASKED TO OUR RESIDENTS IN YORK.
DO YOU WANT TO AMALGAMATE
WITH CITY OF TORONTO?
AND THERE WAS OVER 53
PERCENT OF THE RESIDENTS
THAT SAID NO.
NO TO AMALGAMATION.

Steve says SO YET WE HAVE - DOES
THAT MEAN 47 SAID YES?
BECAUSE THAT'S
VIRTUALLY A TIE.

Frances says 47 PERCENT SAY THAT THEY
DON'T WANT TO BE PART
OF THE MEGACITY.
THEY DON'T WANT TO -- THE
SPECIFIC QUESTION...

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former N.D.P Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says WHETHER IT'S ABOUT
POLITICS AND AGAINST
THE CITY OF TORONTO, OR AS
HUGH SAYS, WHETHER IT'S
ABOUT DOWNSIZING,
WHAT NOBODY'S TALKING
ABOUT AT THE GOVERNMENT
LEVEL IS THE QUALITY
OF LIFE AND THE KIND OF
CITY THAT'S GOING TO BE
THERE WHEN THIS HAPPENS, AND
MY FRUSTRATION WITH ALL OF
THIS CREATING OF CRISIS AND
DISCUSSION ABOUT IT BEFORE
WE KNOW WHAT THE FINAL
DECISION IS, IS AROUND, YOU
KNOW, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM
THEY'RE TRYING TO SOLVE.
AND TO ME THE PROBLEM THAT'S
TRYING TO BE SOLVED HAS GOT
TO BE SOLVED IN
A GTA CONTEXT.
THERE'S A LACK OF
COORDINATION OF TRANSIT.
THERE'S A NEED FOR
BETTER PLANNING.
YOU KNOW, THIS GOVERNMENT
HAS ELIMINATED ANY CONTROLS
ON URBAN SPRAWL.
IF THEY WANT TO SAVE MONEY
THEY DO A MORE COMPACT CITY.
THEY DON'T CONTINUE TO ALLOW
THE 905 AREA TO SPRAWL.
BUT NOBODY'S LOOKING AT THE
THINGS THAT ARE BROKEN.
THEY'RE TRYING TO FIX A
WHOLE LOT OF THINGS THAT
AREN'T BROKEN.

Steve says WELL, IS IT NOT
A SITUATION THAT THEY...
I MEAN LET'S TAKE
HUGH AT HIS WORD.
THERE ARE TOO
MANY POLITICIANS.
THERE ARE TOO MANY LEVELS OF
GOVERNMENT FOR A RELATIVELY,
YOU KNOW, SMALL AREA.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, A PROVINCE THE SIZE OF
BRITISH COLUMBIA HERE.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A
RELATIVELY GEOGRAPHICALLY
SMALL AREA.

Ruth says BUT THE AREA WHERE THERE IS
NO GOVERNMENT AT THIS POINT
IS THE ENTIRE GTA.
AND THIS ALL STARTED ABOUT A
DISCUSSION OF MARKET VALUE
ASSESSMENT AND ECONOMIC
COMPETITION WITHIN THE GTA.
THE PROPOSALS THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT ARE PUTTING
FORWARD DO NOTHING TO
RESOLVE THAT AND I THINK THAT,
YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE ISSUE
THAT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT.

Steve says LET'S
HEAR FROM RICK.
WE HAVEN'T HEARD
FROM RICK YET.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Former Ontario Liberal Party President."

Richard says YEAH, I
THINK RUTH'S RIGHT.
THE ONLY TIME THIS ISSUE'S
EVER BEEN LOOKED AT BY
A SIGNIFICANT BODY...
OR MOST RECENTLY BY THE
GOLDEN REPORT, WHICH ACTUALLY
RECOMMENDED AGAINST A MEGACITY
IN TORONTO AND RECOMMENDED...

Steve says TWENTY SECONDS
OF BACKGROUND ON THAT.
THAT WAS THE COMMISSION BOB
RAE APPOINTED, CAME BACK AND
SHE NOW HAS, I WOULD GUESS,
AMONG A LOT OF PEOPLE A LOT
OF CREDIBILITY
ON THIS ISSUE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Steve says HAVING STUDIED IT AND SHE
SAYS MEGACITY, BAD IDEA.

Richard says BAD IDEA.

Ruth says ND IT COST THE
TAXPAYERS MILLIONS
OF DOLLARS FOR
THAT REPORT.

Richard says RIGHT, THAT'S
WHAT SHE SAID.
BUT WHAT SHE DID SAY WAS
WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TO
TALK ABOUT WHAT RUTH'S
TALKING ABOUT IS FINDING
WAYS IN THE GREATER TORONTO
AREA FOR SERVICES AND OTHER
THINGS TO BE COORDINATED
IN A SENSE THAT THEY
MAKE SOME SENSE.
WHAT I'D LIKE TO -- IF WE'RE
GOING TO GO THIS MEGACITY
ROUTE, AND IF THAT'S ON THE
TABLE, I THINK YOU BETTER
HAVE IN FRONT OF THE PEOPLE,
A, HOW IS THIS GOING TO
AFFECT TAXES, BECAUSE WE'VE
TALKED ON PREVIOUS SHOWS
HERE, WHETHER THIS IS MARKET
VALUE ASSESSMENT THROUGH THE
BACK DOOR.
B, HOW'S IT GOING TO AFFECT
SERVICES, AND C, RUTH'S POINT.
YOU KNOW, TORONTO AND THE
CITIES IN METROPOLITAN
TORONTO HAVE A HUGE QUALITY,
A GREAT QUALITY OF LIFE
RIGHT NOW, RECOGNIZED AS
THE GREATEST IN THE WORLD.
WHAT'S THE IMPACT THERE?
AND IF WE KNEW ALL THOSE
THINGS, MAYBE WE SHOULD...
MAYBE IT SHOULD
BE PUT TO A VOTE.

Steve says I DID SEE SOME
POLLING ON THIS.
AND ACTUALLY ONE-THIRD
OF THE PEOPLE SURVEYED
ACTUALLY BELIEVE TAXES
WILL GO DOWN IN A MEGACITY.
NOW ARE THERE THAT MANY
GULLIBLE PEOPLE OUT THERE?

Frances says WELL, THERE'S BEEN NO DATA
PRODUCED THAT SHOWS THAT.

Ruth says AND THERE'S
NO HISTORY.
LOOK AT OTHER CITIES.

Frances says YOU KNOW, THERE
IS A DUPLICATION.
THERE IS A DUPLICATION OF
SERVICES, I ADMIT THAT.
AND I THINK ALL SIX MAYORS HAVE
ADMITTED THE STATUS QUO IS
NOT WORKING.
IT ISN'T.
AND WHERE I SEE THE
DUPLICATION IS WITH THE
MUNICIPALITIES IN METRO.
THERE IS A LOT OF
DUPLICATION THERE.

Steve says FOR EXAMPLE?
EVERYBODY'S GOT A
PARKS DEPARTMENT.
EVERYBODY'S GOT A
FIRE DEPARTMENT.

Frances says WE HAVE PARKS.
WE HAVE METRO PARKS.
WE HAVE MUNICIPAL PARKS.
THEN WE HAVE THE ROADS
AND THEN WE HAVE THE SNOW
REMOVALS AND WE HAVE THE
SNOW REMOVALS IN ONTARIO
ROADS WHICH METRO DOES
AND THE MUNICIPALITIES
DOES RESIDENTIAL.
THEN WE HAVE THE PARKS.
THERE'S A LOT OF DUPLICATION
THERE WHICH I THINK THAT
MUNICIPALITIES SHOULD
TAKE OVER COMPLETELY.
AND THE SIX FIRE
DEPARTMENTS, I AGREE.
WE DON'T NEED SIX
FIRE DEPARTMENTS.
I THINK YOU CAN AMALGAMATE
THE FIRE DEPARTMENT
AND THE AMBULANCE.
YOU CAN DO THAT.

Steve says HERE'S THE QUESTION.
WHY HAS IT TAKEN, YOU KNOW,
AL LEACH PUTTING THE FEAR OF
GOD INTO MUNICIPAL
POLITICIANS FOR THEM TO GET
CREATIVE ABOUT SOLUTIONS
TO THESE PROBLEMS?

Frances says NO, BUT WE'VE BEEN
DOING THAT FOR YEARS.
WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO
COORDINATE THE SERVICES FOR
YEARS AND BRING
FORWARD PROPOSALS.
BUT METRO HAS NOT ADOPTED
ANY OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS
THAT THE MUNICIPALITIES
HAVE BROUGHT FORWARD.

Hugh says ISN'T IT TRUE THAT IF
YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE HISTORY
OF DECISION MAKING BY THE
MUNICIPAL COUNCILS AND THE
METRO COUNCIL, YOU'VE
CLASSICALLY HAD THIS CLASH
BETWEEN THE MUNICIPAL
COUNCILS AND THE METRO LEVEL
OF GOVERNMENT AND THEIR
LEVEL OF SORT OF SUBURBAN
SUPPORT VERSUS THE CORE OF
THE CITY, WHICH HAS OFTEN
HAD A DIFFERENT VIEW
ON A HOST OF ISSUES.
TORONTO ISLANDS,
GREEN SPACE.
THE SPADINA
EXPRESSWAY.
IT'S A LONG LIST.
AND I THINK WE HAVE TO ASK
OURSELF THIS QUESTION.
IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE
CORE DECISIONS ABOUT THE
ENVIRONMENT, ABOUT THE
QUALITY OF LIFE, CAN WE HAVE
THIS BUILT-IN ONGOING
ETERNAL INERTIA BASED ON
DIFFERENT INTERESTS THAT
ARE NOT RATIONALIZED
AT ONE SINGLE LEVEL?
I THINK THAT'S THE QUESTION
THE GOVERNMENT'S TRYING TO ASK.

Ruth says BUT THAT'S AN ARGUMENT
AGAINST A MEGACITY.

Hugh says WELL, IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE,
DEPENDING ON WHAT THE OTHER
ALTERNATIVES ARE.
TO DATE, THE ALTERNATIVES
HAVE BEEN AN ENDLESS PROCESS
OF BICKERING, A BEGGAR
THY NEIGHBOUR APPROACH,
COMPETITION ON TAX
RATES, ALL OF WHICH IS
NOT RATIONALIZED.
THE WONDERFUL HUMAN RESOURCE
BASE WE HAVE IN THIS CITY
AND THE OUTSTANDING
QUALITY OF LIFE.
THAT'S THE QUESTION THE
PROVINCE IS ASKING.

Steve says IT'S HAPPENING ALL
OVER THE PROVINCE RIGHT NOW.
YOUR HOME TOWN KINGSTON IS
GOING THROUGH THIS RIGHT.

Hugh says ABSOLUTELY.
HAMILTON...

Steve says OTTAWA.

Richard says OTTAWA-CARLETON IS
STARTING TO GO THROUGH IT.

Steve says HAMILTON HAS JUST DECIDED
TO JOIN WITH A NUMBER
OF ITS LOCAL SURROUNDING
MUNICIPALITIES AND BECOME
ONE BIG SUPER CITY AS
WELL NOW, 450,000 PEOPLE.

Ruth says WHAT'S BIG?
I MEAN A BIG SUPER CITY
IN HAMILTON COMPARED TO
2.3 MILLION PEOPLE IN TORONTO
IS A VERY DIFFERENT SCALE.

Richard says FRANCES AND I WERE
TALKING EARLIER ABOUT THIS.
I THINK ONLY RESEARCH I'VE
EVER SEEN DONE ON THIS
SUGGESTS THAT WHERE IT MAKES
SENSE -- AS RUTH SUGGESTS
PERHAPS IN HAMILTON.
THERE'S AN ECONOMIES
OF SCALE ARGUMENT.
BUT AT 600,000 OR SO, MOST
OF THE WORK THAT HAS BEEN
DONE IN MOST MAJOR URBAN
CENTRES, ONCE YOU GET PAST
600,000 YOU BEGIN TO LOSE
THE ECONOMIES OF SCALE
OF POPULATIONS.
600,000 PEOPLE I MEAN.
IN TORONTO, AND IN NONE OF
THE CITIES IN METRO TORONTO,
YOU KNOW, I DOUBT YOU'RE
GOING TO GET THE -- I MEAN
YOU'RE GOING TO
2.3 MILLION PEOPLE.
I'M NOT SURE THERE'S GOING
TO BE ANY ECONOMIES OF SCALE.
YOU'RE JUST GOING TO
HAVE A HUGE BUREAUCRACY.

Frances says THAT'S TOO BIG
AND THAT'S ONE THING ABOUT
THE CITY OF YORK.
WE'RE SMALL.
WE HAVE 150,000.
WE'RE SMALL.
WE HAVE EIGHT WARDS,
EIGHT COUNCILLORS.
I MUST ADMIT WE COULD DO
WITH HAVE THE COUNCIL.
WE DON'T NEED...

Steve says JUST THE
HALF YOU LIKE, RIGHT?
[laughing]

Ruth says BUT FRANCES WOULD YOU
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT'S TOO
SMALL AND THAT THEY'RE
PERHAPS OUGHT TO BE BACK TO
THE ROBARTS COMMISSION AND
OTHER PROPOSALS TO MAKE IT...
SOME EQUITY.

Frances says OKAY, THEN WHY DON'T
WE MAKE ALL SIX
MUNICIPALITIES 400,000
AND THAT'S IT, RIGHT.
AND THEN WE'RE ALL EQUAL.

Ruth says OR FOUR EQUAL
MUNICIPALITIES.

Frances says RIGHT.
BUT WHAT MAKES US SO UNIQUE
IN THE CITY OF YORK -- WE DO
HAVE A LOT OF
PROBLEMS IN YORK.
WE'RE HAVING -- WE DO
HAVE FINANCIAL PROBLEMS.

Steve says WHAT MAKES YOU
UNIQUE IS YOUR INCREDIBLY
HIGH ASSESSMENT BASE.

Frances says WELL, YEAH BUT THAT
WILL BE ADDRESSED.
THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE
ADDRESSED THROUGH AMALGAMATION.

Steve says WHY WOULDN'T IT BE?

Frances says NO, IT WON'T BE.

Richard says GO INTO A
COMMON POOL PRESUMABLY.

Steve says PRESUMABLY, YEAH,
THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.

Frances says WELL, NOT IN
THE MEGACITY.

Ruth says BUT I MEAN THIS GOVERNMENT
HAS ALREADY SAID IT'S GOING
TO DO THE MARKET
VALUE ASSESSMENT.

Frances says OR ABA.

Ruth says BUT THAT BRINGS UP THE WHOLE
QUESTION OF IMPLEMENTATION.
THIS GOVERNMENT'S RECORD ON
ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTING ANY OF
ITS PROPOSALS FROM FAMILY
SUPPORT PLAN TO MARKET VALUE
ASSESSMENT IS, YOU KNOW,
REAL INCOMPETENCE.
HOW ARE THEY GOING TO
DO THIS BEFORE THE NEXT
MUNICIPAL ELECTION?
NOBODY CAN CONCEIVE OF THE
CONFUSION THERE'S GOING TO BE.

Steve says LET ME ASK A
NEFARIOUS QUESTION.
WHEN THE GOVERNMENT MADE
NOISES ABOUT PRIVATIZING
LIQUOR SALES, IT'S AMAZING
HOW EFFICIENT THE LCBO GOT.
THEY'RE OPEN LONGER HOURS.
ANDY BRANDT'S GETTING MORE
MONEY FOR THE GOVERNMENT
OUT OF THAT.
IS THIS A POSSIBILITY WHERE
THEY THINK, HMM, LET'S FLOAT
A TRIAL BALLOON ABOUT DOING
AWAY WITH ALL THESE LOCAL
POLITICIANS AND, MAN, LET'S
JUST WATCH HOW EFFICIENT
THEY GET.

Ruth says STEVE, THAT'S
A BAD EXAMPLE.
THE LIQUOR STORE'S LONGER
HOURS HAS BEEN ON THE TABLE
FOR A LONG TIME.
I WAS INTERESTED LAST
NIGHT TO HEAR THAT
40 MUNICIPALITIES HAVE
SAID NO, THANK YOU.
WE DON'T WANT TO BE OPEN
OVER CHRISTMAS AND ON SOME
OF THOSE SUNDAYS.
AND THE REASON THAT HASN'T
HAPPENED BEFORE IS THE
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS, OURS
INCLUDED, DIDN'T FEEL
THAT WAS A DIRECTION.
SO THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE OF
A, YOU KNOW, POSITION OF
THIS GOVERNMENT'S AS OPPOSED
TO ANY EFFICIENCIES.

Richard says BUT YOU
MIGHT BE RIGHT, STEVE.
I'M NOT ANXIOUS TO GIVE
CREDIT TO THE GOVERNMENT,
BUT -- AND I'M NOT SURE THE
MEGACITY IDEA IN TORONTO'S
A GOOD ONE.
HOWEVER, WHERE I'M FROM IN
OTTAWA-CARLETON, WE HAVE
WHAT IS CLEARLY AN
UNWORKABLE SITUATION.
WE HAVE 11 MUNICIPALITIES
AND A REGIONAL GOVERNMENT
ON TOP OF THAT.

Hugh says HOW MANY
SCHOOL BOARDS?

Richard says AND WE HAVE SIX
SCHOOL BOARDS.
AND IN FACT, WHAT IS
HAPPENING THERE IS AS A
RESULT OF THE IDEA THAT THEY
THINK THE PROVINCE IS GOING
TO BE MOVING TO ONE
BIT TIER GOVERNMENT IN
OTTAWA-CARLETON, NOW WHAT'S
HAPPENING IS CUMBERLAND IS
THINKING OF MERGING
WITH GLOUCESTER.
THESE ARE TWO MUNICIPALITIES
OUTSIDE OF OTTAWA.
NEPEAN AND KANATA ARE
TALKING ABOUT MERGING.

Steve says IT'S CONTAGIOUS.

Richard says IN ORDER TO AVOID ONE
BIG OTTAWA ESSENTIALLY.
AND YOU KNOW, NOT MANY
PEOPLE IN OTTAWA ARE GOING
TO BE OPPOSED TO THAT.
MOST PEOPLE ARE GOING TO
THINK IT'S A PRETTY GOOD THING.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS...
SORRY, GO AHEAD.

Frances says BUT HOW CAN YOU BE
ACCESSIBLE AND ACCOUNTABLE
WHEN YOU'RE PART
OF A MEGACITY?
HOW CAN YOU BE?
I MEAN...

Richard says WELL, NEPEAN AND
KANATA, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
...
THERE'S 40,000 PEOPLE
IN KANATA AND IN NEPEAN
THERE'S ABOUT 110,000.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT 150,000 PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT A MEGACITY.

Steve says DO VOTERS REALLY
CARE ABOUT THE IDENTITY
OF THEIR LOCAL AREA?

Frances says OH,
YES, THEY DO.

Steve says NO, BUT I MEAN THINK
ABOUT IT FOR A SECOND.
I MEAN LEASIDE DOESN'T EXIST
ANY MORE TECHNICALLY AS A
GOVERNMENT BUT...

(all talking at once)

Ruth says PEOPLE SAY
THEY LIVE IN LEASIDE.

Steve says BUT PEOPLE SAY THEY
LIVE IN LEASIDE.

Ruth says I LIVE IN
LONG BRANCH.

Frances says DO YOU KNOW THAT AS MAYOR
I GET CALLS AT HOME.
OKAY, I GET CALLS AT 2, 3
O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING FROM
RESIDENTS THAT ARE
COMPLAINING THERE'S AN
ALL-NIGHT PARTY GOING ON.
THEY'VE CALLED THE 12
DIVISION AND THE POLICE...
AND THEY WERE TOLD
TO CALL FRANCES.
[laughing]
AND YOU KNOW HOW -- I GET
CALLS FOR STOP SIGNS.
I GET CALLS FOR GARBAGE.
I GET CALLS FOR EVERYTHING.
I GET CALLS FOR PROVINCIAL
ISSUES, FEDERAL ISSUES.

Steve says BUT YOU'D STILL GET
CALLS IF YOU THE LOCAL
MEMBER FOR THE MEGACITY.

Frances says NO, NO.
BUT THE MENTALITY OF THE
COMMUNITIES ARE WE WANT
SOMETHING DONE REGARDLESS IF
IT'S A STOP SIGN, A LIGHT OR
WHATEVER IT IS, WE CONTACT
OUR LOCAL COUNCILLOR AND OUR
LOCAL MAYOR BECAUSE
THEY'RE THERE.
THEY'LL ANSWER OUR PHONES.
THEY'LL BE THERE.
THEY'RE ACCOUNTABLE.
THEY'RE ACCESSIBLE.
THAT'S IT.

Hugh says DAVID CROMBIE USED TO SAY...
AND REALLY I'M SAYING THIS
IN SUPPORT OF THE
MAYOR'S VIEW ON THIS.
ONE OF THE WAYS YOU COPE
WITH LIVING IN A VERY LARGE
COMMUNITY IS YOU SAY, WELL,
ACTUALLY I LIVE IN SWANSEA
OR I LIVE IN LONG BRANCH OR
I LIVE IN OMEMEE OR I LIVE
IN... SOME LOCAL...
AND IN FACT YOU HAVE A
LOCUS OF ACTIVITY.
SCHOOLS, CHURCHES, STORES,
OTHER, THAT REALLY IS IN
A VERY SMALL LOCUS
OF ACTIVITY.

Ruth says EXACTLY.

Steve says BUT NOT
NECESSARILY A GOVERNMENT.

Hugh says FAIR ENOUGH.

Steve says YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A
LOCAL GOVERNMENT THERE.

Hugh says AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT'LL BE CRITICAL
IN ANY EFFORT BY THE
GOVERNMENT TO ACHIEVE ANY
MEASURE OF INTEGRATION WILL
BE TO PROVE THAT IN FACT
THOSE QUALITY OF LOCAL
COMMUNITY ISSUES ARE NOT
GOING TO BE LOST IN THE
SHUFFLE AND IF THEY CAN'T
PROVE THAT, THEY'RE GOING
TO HAVE GREAT DIFFICULTY.

Ruth says HUGH, ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT RETAINS THAT LOCAL IS
THE LOCAL REPRESENTATIVE
THAT KNOWS THAT AREA
AND WHO MAKES THE
DECISIONS, CAN VISUALIZE
THE STREET CORNER WHEN
SOMEBODY WANTS SOMETHING.

Hugh says RUTH, I'M WITH YOU
PHILOSOPHICALLY BUT I'M NOT
WITH YOU PRACTICALLY BECAUSE
NOBODY VOTES FOR THEM.

Frances says THE MAYOR...

Hugh says THE TURNOUT
IN LOCAL MUNICIPAL
ELECTIONS IS HORRIFIC.

Frances says NO, NO, NO.
IN YORK IT WAS VERY HIGH.
IN THE '91 ELECTION,
WE HAVE 75 PERCENT.

Hugh says BUT THAT'S
AN EXCEPTION.

Frances says WHY?

Hugh says BECAUSE YOU TEND TO...
NOT AN EXCEPTION IN YORK.
IT MAY NOT BE AN
EXCEPTION IN YORK.
BUT IN MOST PARTS OF THE
COMMUNITY IT'S 20 PERCENT.

Frances says NO, BUT IT'S HIGH.
IT'S HIGH.

Ruth says IT'S OFTEN HIGHER THAN THAT,
AND I THINK YOU ALSO...
WHILE WE HAVE THIS DISCUSSION,
HAVE GOT TO COUPLE IT WITH
THE ACTIONS OF THIS
GOVERNMENT IN SIGNIFICANTLY
INCREASING THE SIZE OF THE
PROVINCIAL CONSTITUENCIES.
SO THE WHOLE THRUST IS
CENTRALIZED, FEWER PEOPLE,
MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT
FOR THE CITIZEN TO FIND THE
PERSON WHO IS THEIR
REPRESENTATIVE, AND I FIND
THAT'S VERY DANGEROUS.

Hugh says I THINK IT'S ASKING THE
POLITICAL SYSTEM, LIKE EVERY
OTHER PART OF OUR SOCIETY,
TO BE A BIT MORE PRODUCTIVE.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT
THEY'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S
ABOUT CENTRALIZATION.

Steve says LET US IN OUR LAST MINUTE
AND CHANGE HERE TALK FOR
A SECOND ABOUT ONE ISSUE THAT
REALLY HAS A LOT OF PEOPLE
IN THE CITY CONCERNED,
AND THAT IS THAT SUBURBAN
POLITICIANS DON'T UNDERSTAND
THE SENSIBILITIES OF PEOPLE
WHO LIVE IN CITIES.
IF YOU CREATE ONE MEGACITY,
DO YOU RUN THE RISK OF
RUINING THE HEART OF
WHAT IS THE MEGACITY?
BECAUSE SUBURBAN POLITICIANS
WILL BE IN THE MAJORITY ON
THE NEW COUNCIL.

Ruth says I THINK THAT'S A VERY
REAL RISK AND IT'S AN EXAMPLE
OF THIS IS WHAT MAKES
OUR QUALITY OF LIFE IN
TORONTO GOOD.
THE CITY OF TORONTO HAS BEEN
OFTEN THE GOAD THAT HAS MADE
GOOD THINGS HAPPEN IN
THE SUBURBS AND WITHOUT
PROTECTING THAT CITY CORE WE
RUN THE RISK OF BECOMING A
U.S.-STYLE CITY.

Hugh says BUT WE ARE ALL UNITED
IN THIS ONE RESPECT.
WE MAY LIVE IN YORK OR
ETOBICOKE, OR WE MAY LIVE IN
TORONTO AND WORK IN YORK.
WE ARE SHARING A COMMON
ECONOMIC INTEREST.
WE HAVE A COMMON INTEREST IN
SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC BALANCE.
THAT'S WHY LOOKING AT SOME
NEW APPROACH TO GOVERNMENT
I THINK MAKES
SOME REAL SENSE.

Richard says THOSE ISSUES HAVE GOT TO
BE ON THE TABLE AND THERE
PROBABLY SHOULD BE A VOTE
AMONGST THE PEOPLE OF
METROPOLITAN TORONTO.

Frances says THERE SHOULD
BE A REFERENDUM VOTE.

Richard says ON THIS.
MAYBE AT THE NEXT MUNICIPAL
ELECTIONS SO THAT ALL THOSE
ISSUES WOULD BE
ON THE TABLE.
THE TAX ISSUES, THE
QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES.
PEOPLE CAN MAKE
THEIR OWN JUDGMENT.

Steve say ON THAT NOTE, WE SAY THANK
YOU TO FRANCES NUNZIATA,
THE MAYOR OF YORK.
WE WISH YOU WELL IN YOUR
DELIBERATIONS AHEAD AND
THANKS FOR VISITING
US TONIGHT.
THANK YOU.
COMING UP NEXT,
A NEW LIBERAL LEADER
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
STICK AROUND.

A clip rolls.

An announcer says AND THE NEXT PREMIER
OF THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
IS DALTON MCGUINTY.
[cheering]

Dalton McGuinty stands behind a lectern with a sign that reads "Leadership 96" He is in his early forties, clean-shaven and with short slightly wavy brown hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt and printed tie.

Dalton says IT IS AN ABSOLUTE PLEASURE
AND AN HONOUR FOR ME TO BE
ELECTED AS YOUR LEADER AND I
PROMISE TO SERVE YOU TO THE
VERY BEST OF MY ABILITY.
ARE YOU OUT THERE SOMEWHERE
WATCHING US ON TV, MIKE?
WE'RE COMING!
[cheering]

Steve says DALTON MCGUINTY.
NEW LEADER OF THE
ONTARIO LIBERAL PARTY.
OKAY.
YOU AND I WERE BOTH THERE
'TIL 5 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING.
DID YOUR PARTY MAKE
THE RIGHT CHOICE?
NOW I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING
TO SAY, BUT MAYBE TELL ME
WHY YOU THINK THEY
MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

Richard says I THINK ULTIMATELY THE PARTY
FELT THE MOST COMFORTABLE
WITH DALTON AND WHERE HE
WANTED TO TAKE THE PARTY
COMPARED TO THE OTHER
CANDIDATES, AND PARTICULARLY
AS COMPARED TO
GERARD KENNEDY.
LIBERAL PARTY'S A MODERATE
CENTRIST PARTY AND DALTON
VERY MUCH REPRESENTS A
MODERATE CENTRIST POINT OF VIEW.
HE MADE A POINT OF TALKING
ABOUT THAT DURING THE
CAMPAIGN AND A POINT OF,
FRANKLY, MENTIONING THAT IN
HIS SPEECH ON FRIDAY NIGHT.
AND, ULTIMATELY, I THINK
TOOK THE BALANCE OF THE
CONVENTION BECAUSE OF THAT.

Steve says NEW DEMOCRATS SAID, THE ONES
I TALKED TO ANYWAY, SAID
THEY WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED
IF KENNEDY WON BECAUSE HE
WOULD TEND TO BLEED VOTES
AWAY FROM NDP SUPPORTERS,
POTENTIAL NDP SUPPORTERS.
SO I PRESUME THE NDP IS
HAPPY ABOUT THIS OUTCOME.

Ruth says THE NDP IS HAPPY.
MY ADVICE TO THE NDP IS
DON'T UNDERESTIMATE
THIS PERSON.
I THINK DALTON MCGUINTY'S
A VERY DECENT, PRINCIPLED
INDIVIDUAL, AND I'M REALLY
IMPRESSED BY COMING FROM
BEHIND AND WORKING THE
PROVINCE AS HE DID TO
WIN THE LEADERSHIP.
AND I THINK HE'LL BE VERY
INTERESTING TO WATCH.

Steve says HE IS YOUR WORST
NIGHTMARE, ISN'T HE?

Hugh says ELL, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE
ANY REASON TO BE RELAXED
OR COMPLACENT.
I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF
BILL DAVIS IN HIS APPROACH,
IN HIS LARGE FAMILY, IN THE
KIND OF FUNDAMENTAL DECENCY
THAT HE EXPRESSES.
I THINK THAT HE COULD OFFER
THE FOLLOWING PROPOSITION:
I'LL DO WHAT THE TORIES
TRIED TO DO, BUT I'LL DO
IT IN A WAY THAT'S MORE
EFFICIENT, MORE HUMANE,
LESS INCOMPETENT.
AND WHETHER THAT'S SALIENT
OR NOT IS REALLY UP TO THE
GOVERNMENT BETWEEN NOW AND
ELECTION TIME AS TO WHETHER
THEY DEFEAT THEMSELVES.

Steve says CAN YOU SEE, THOUGH,
WITHIN TWO AND A HALF OR
THREE YEARS WHEN IT'S TIME TO
GO TO THE POLLS AGAIN, IF THE
PUBLIC IS, YOU KNOW,
BASICALLY LIKES WHAT THE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT IS
DOING BUT IS SICK AND TIRED
OF THE CONFRONTATIONS, THEY
MIGHT JUST GO FOR THIS SORT
OF KINDER, GENTLER,
MODERATE GUY?

Hugh says I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS A
RISK THAT -- I MEAN, YOU
KNOW, JOURNALISTS WERE
SAYING THIS IS THE WRONG
CHOICE BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO
BE A FIGHT FOR THE SAME VOTES.
WELL, ACTUALLY THAT'S WHY
IT'S THE RIGHT CHOICE.
BECAUSE IT IS A FIGHT
FOR THE SAME VOTES.
THE LIBERAL CONSERVATIVE
SWITCHERS ARE THE LARGEST
SINGLE GROUP OF VOTERS
IN THE PROVINCE.
THAT'S WHAT IT IS ABOUT.
AND I THINK THE LIBERALS
HAVE CHOSEN A VERY CAPABLE
STANDARD-BEARER, AND I THINK
WE HAVE TO REFLECT AS TORIES
ABOUT HOW WE PLAY THE GAME
CONSTRUCTIVELY SO AS TO MAKE
SURE THAT WE DON'T GIVE AWAY
ANYTHING MORE THAN WE SHOULD
IN TERMS OF OPPORTUNITY
POLITICALLY.

Steve says HE DOES NOT BRING
TO THE PARTY, THOUGH,
THE SAME KIND OF ELECTRICITY
THAT GERARD KENNEDY WOULD
HAVE BROUGHT HAD HE WON.
KENNEDY SEEMED TO BE A GUY
WHO COULD REALLY, YOU KNOW,
JUICE A LOT OF PEOPLE UP
INTO POLITICS WHO HADN'T
BEEN INTERESTED IN
POLITICS PREVIOUSLY.
DO YOU ADMIT THAT?

Richard says YEAH.
I MEAN KENNEDY'S A PRETTY
REMARKABLE FIGURE IN THE
SENSE THAT HE'S BEEN IN THE
LIBERAL PARTY FOR ABOUT
EIGHT OR NINE MONTHS AND
CAME FAIRLY CLOSE TO
ACTUALLY WINNING
THE LEADERSHIP.
HE'S MADE IT QUITE CLEAR
THAT HE INTENDS TO STAY AROUND.
I PRESUME THAT HE'LL BE
GIVEN A PRETTY MAJOR ROLE IN
DALTON'S NEW CAUCUS, AND I
THINK THE COMBINATION OF
KENNEDY'S COMPASSION AND
SORT OF MEDIA SAVVY AND
DALTON'S MODERATE RIGHT OF
CENTRE INTEGRITY AND CHARM
I THINK IS A PRETTY
POTENT WEAPON.

Steve says INTEGRITY AND CHARM
AND ALL THOSE THINGS,
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?
HE REALLY DOES NOT HAVE
VERY MANY WELL THOUGHT OUT
POSITIONS ON VERY MANY
ISSUES RIGHT NOW.
DOES THAT MATTER YET?

Ruth says I DON'T THINK
IT MATTERS YET.
IT MATTERS IF HE DOESN'T
HAVE THEM BY THE TIME HE'S
INTO THE NEXT ELECTION, AND
DON'T FORGET THAT HE'S GOING
TO BE HAMSTRUNG BY THE
FEDERAL LIBERALS AND THE
RIGHT WING NATURE OF THAT
GOVERNMENT WILL BECOME MORE
AND MORE APPARENT I
THINK AS WE GET CLOSER TO
A FEDERAL ELECTION.

Richard says FRANKLY, I DON'T THINK HE'LL
FEEL HAMSTRUNG BY THAT
BECAUSE HE SIGNALLED QUITE
CLEARLY ACTUALLY ON A TVO
INTERVIEW THAT HE FELT VERY
COMFORTABLE WITH WHAT
HE CALLED PAUL MARTIN'S
INEXORABLE BUT CALCULATED
APPROACH TO REDUCING
GOVERNMENT SPENDING.

Ruth says SO HE IS ON
THE RIGHT WING.

Richard says HE SIGNALLED THAT HE VERY
MUCH COMFORTABLE WITH THAT
IN COMPARISON
WITH OTHER THINGS.
I DON'T THINK IT WILL
HAMPER HIM AT ALL.

Ruth says THAT MAKES ME
FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE.

Hugh says THE REAL RISK THAT I
THINK ONE HAS TO FACE UP TO
HERE IS THAT THE LIBERAL
PARTY GETS INTO ONE OF THOSE
MOODS, WHICH IT'S BEEN IN ON
OCCASION -- NOT OFTEN, BUT ON
OCCASION -- WHERE IT GETS
INTO A RURAL URBAN FIGHT
ABOUT POLICY, AND IT DOESN'T
ACTUALLY GET A COHESIVE
POSITION ON THE VARIOUS
ISSUES COMING BEFORE THE
HOUSE ALLOWING BOTH THE NDP
ON THE LEFT AND THE TORIES
ON THE RIGHT TO SAY WHEN YOU
ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, SPIN THE
WEATHER VANE AROUND
THEY STAND FOR NOTHING.
THAT'S ONE OF THE
ISSUES HE HAS TO FACE.
I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE TO
UNDERESTIMATE HIS CAPACITY
TO DO SO, BUT HE HAS TO FACE
IT AND HE'S GOT TO START
FACING IT
RELATIVELY QUICKLY.

Steve says JUST IN TERMS OF
BALANCE, SINCE THE FEDERAL
LIBERALS WILL PROBABLY LOSE THE
NEXT ELECTION, IT OPENS THE DOOR
FOR A PROVINCIAL LIBERAL
PARTY TO -- YOU LOOK LIKE
YOU'RE HAVING A CORONARY.

Richard says THE FEDERAL
LIBERALS WILL PROBABLY LOSE
THE NEXT ELECTION?

Steve says WELL, YEAH, I
MEAN WE ALL KNOW THAT.

Hugh says YOU HEARD
IT HERE FIRST.

Steve says YEAH, HEARD
IT HERE FIRST.
YOU'RE NOT
SOLD YET, EH?

Richard says NO.

Steve says BECAUSE THAT WOULD OPEN
THE DOOR FOR A PROVINCIAL
LIBERAL PARTY TO DO BETTER.

Hugh says THE FEDERAL TORIES
HAVE A SNEAK UP ON THEM
KIND OF THING.
NO ONE SEES US COMING YET,
BUT THE STEALTH THING IS
REALLY SERIOUS.

Steve says ONE THING THAT IS
COMING IS THE CLOCK
TELLING ME WE'RE DONE.
SO THANK YOU ALL AND WE'LL
DO IT AGAIN NEXT TIME.

Richard says THANKS, STEVE.

Steve says AND THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR WATCHING.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT
TIME ON
4th READING.
SO LONG, EVERYBODY.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1996, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #78