Transcript: Show #77 | Nov 17, 1996

The opening sequence rolls.

In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.

Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
GETTING AN EARFUL.
WHAT OUR MPPs ARE
HEARING BACK HOME
DURING CONSTITUENCY WEEK.

Jane Armstrong is in her early forties, with short wavy brown hair. She wears glasses, a black turtleneck under a gingham woollen jacket with furry lapels and a pearl necklace.

She says THERE ARE THESE
SUBSTANTIVE AREAS PEOPLE
ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT,
HEALTH AND EDUCATION,
FOR EXAMPLE, BUT
THEY'RE ALSO
VERY CONCERNED ABOUT
PROCESS ISSUES.

Steve says AND HOW
THEY'LL USE THIS.

John Wright is in his early forties, clean-shaven and with short straight red hair. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and silver gray tie.

He says THIS GOVERNMENT, I THINK IN
THE NEXT NUMBER OF MONTHS
IS GOING TO
HAVE TO DECIDE,
NOT SO MUCH HOW MUCH
ENERGY IT'S GOT TO PUSH
ITS AGENDA FORWARD,
BUT HOW MUCH ENERGY
IT'S GOING TO EXPEND
WITH ALL THOSE OTHER
CONSTITUENCY GROUPS
IN THE MIDDLE PART
OF ITS CAMPAIGN
AND DEAL WITH IT.

Steve, Ruth, Hugh and Richard sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair.

He's wearing a black Polo T-shirt and a gray blazer.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.

Hugh Seal is in his mid-forties, with short straight brown hair.

Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
AND WELCOME TO THIS
EDITION OF 4TH READING.
THE HALLS OF QUEEN'S PARK
HAVE BEEN FAIRLY
HUSH THIS WEEK.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN
ALL IS QUIET
ON THE POLITICAL FRONT,
IT IS CONSTITUENCY WEEK.
THAT BREAK IN THE
LEGISLATIVE SESSION
WHEN OUR ELECTED
REPRESENTATIVES HEAD BACK
TO THEIR RIDINGS TO
HEAR WHAT THE FOLKS
BACK HOME ARE
THINKING.
AND THAT KIND OF EAR
BENDING, SOME SAY,
IS THE BEST POLITICAL
POLLING ANYWHERE.
WELL, WHAT ARE THE MPPs
HEARING THIS WEEK?
WE WILL ASK TWO OF
ONTARIO'S TOP POLLSTERS
HOW MUCH DO GOVERNMENTS
LISTEN TO POLLS?
DOES THIS GOVERNMENT
LISTEN TO POLLS?
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

[whistling, shouting protestors]

A clip shows a group of protesters holding banners that read "October 25, 1996. University of Toronto closed due to cuts" and "This year, Mike Harris screws us over."

Another clip shows Mike Harris stand behind a lectern.

Mike is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short slightly wavy gray hair. He wears a gray suit, blue shirt with white collar and printed tie.

He says WE WILL STAY
THE COURSE.
WE WILL STAY
THE COURSE.
[applause]

Steve says AT FIRST GLANCE
PREMIER MIKE HARRIS'
RESOLVE TO STICK TO THE
PROMISES MADE
IN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION MAY SEEM
LIKE POLITICAL FOLLY.

Protestors chant WE SAY FIGHT BACK!

Steve says AFTER ALL, THE SERIES
OF PROTESTS ORGANIZED
AROUND ONTARIO OVER THE
PAST YEAR HAS MOBILIZED
AN UNPRECEDENTED
NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
BUT PREMIER HARRIS,
AND HIS TORY CAUCUS,
RETURNING TO THEIR RIDINGS
FOR CONSTITUENCY WEEK,
ARE LIKELY TO HEAR
SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

A slate with the caption "Metro Days of Action. Augus Reid. October’69" shows a bar chart with the following data: Successful, 43 percent. Unsuccessful, 52 percent.

Steve says THIS SURVEY TAKEN BY THE
ANGUS REID GROUP SHOWS
MORE THAN HALF THOSE
POLLED IN THE GREATER
TORONTO AREA THOUGHT THE
PROTEST WAS UNSUCCESSFUL.

Another slate appears with the caption "Keeping Election Promise" and the following data: Disapprove, 33 percent. Approve, 65 percent."

Steve says AND 65 PERCENT OF THOSE
POLLED GENERALLY APPROVE
OF THE GOVERNMENT KEEPING
ITS ELECTION PROMISES.
BUT EVEN IF THE
POLLS ARE ACCURATE,
MPPs ARE LIKELY TO GET
AN EARFUL FROM
THEIR CONSTITUENTS
ON SEVERAL OTHER
CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES.
ONTARIO HYDRO IS LIKELY
TO BE ONE OF THEM.
DURING LAST YEAR'S
ELECTION CAMPAIGN,
THE TORIES PROMISED
TO SELL OFF
SOME KEY PUBLIC ASSETS.

An aerial view of Hydro appears.

Another slate appears with the caption "Privatization of Ontario Hydro. Environics. August’95" and a bar chart with the following data: 5 out of 10 support; 4 out of 10 oppose."

Steve says THIS ENVIRONICS POLL SHOWS
PUBLIC OPINION WAS SPLIT
EVENLY ON THE ISSUE OF
PRIVATIZING ONTARIO HYDRO.
BUT AFTER THE UNION
REPRESENTING HYDRO WORKERS
LAUNCHED THIS AD CAMPAIGN,
PUBLIC OPINION SHIFTED.

An ad for the Power Workers’ Union reads "Stop the Ontario Hydro Sell-out. Keep rates low."

Steve says MORE THAN SIX IN TEN
ONTARIANS OPPOSE
PRIVATIZATION, WITH ONLY
THREE IN TEN SUPPORTING IT.

Another slate appears with data from July 1996. It reads "3 out of 10 support; 6 out of 10 oppose."

Steve says THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE
FOR HYDRO, NORM STERLING,
RECENTLY SAID THE
PRIVATIZATION OF ONTARIO HYDRO
WOULD BE POSTPONED FOR AT
LEAST THREE TO FOUR YEARS.
[VLT chiming]
VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS
WILL ALSO LIKELY BE
A HOT TOPIC DURING
CONSTITUENCY WEEK.

Another chart appears with the title "Video Lottery Terminals. Environics. July’96." The data reads: 3 out of 10, support; 6 out of 10, oppose."

Steve says RECENT POLLS SHOW ABOUT
SIX IN TEN ONTARIANS
OPPOSE VIDEO LOTTERY
TERMINALS WITH JUST
THREE
IN TEN
SUPPORTING THEM.
LAST WEEK, SOLICITOR
GENERAL BOB RUNCIMAN
ANNOUNCED A CRACKDOWN.

A clip from the Legislature rolls with the caption "Honourable Bob Runciman. Solicitor General."

Bob is in his mid-fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy blond hair. He wears glasses, a blue gray suit, white shirt, printed tie and a pin.

He says WE'LL BE MAKING AN
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
LATER TODAY DETAILING A
NEW PROVINCIAL ILLEGAL
GAMING PROGRAM AIMED AT
REDUCING ILLEGAL GAMING,
AND TARGETING ORGANIZED
CRIME INVOLVED
IN OPERATING ILLEGAL
VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS.

Steve says POLLS, POLLS,
AND MORE POLLS.
AND OF COURSE THE ONLY
ONE THAT REALLY COUNTS
IS ON ELECTION DAY.
AND OF COURSE WE'RE
OBLIGED TO TELL YOU
ALL THE NUMBERS YOU JUST SAW
HAVE THAT MARGIN OF ERROR
IN THE THREE TO FIVE PERCENT
RANGE 19 TIMES OUT OF 20.
OKAY, HERE TO TELL
US WHAT THE BUZZ
ON THE GROUND IS RIGHT
NOW ARE JOHN WRIGHT.
HE'S SENIOR VICE
PRESIDENT AT ANGUS REID,

AND JANE
ARMSTRONG IS HERE,
VICE PRESIDENT FROM
ENVIRONICS RESEARCH.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.
WE APPRECIATE YOU
TAKING THE TIME.
YOU KNOW OUR
GANG HERE.
SENIOR TORY ADVISOR HUGH
SEGAL, AND RICK MAHONEY,
FROM THE OTTAWA LAW
FIRM FRASER AND BEATTY,
FORMER PARTY PRESIDENT FOR
THE LIBERALS OF ONTARIO,
AND THERE'S RUTH GRIER.
THERE SHE IS, NDP CABINET
MINISTER DURING BOB RAE'S
TIME IN OFFICE.
OKAY, TO THE POLLSTERS,
LET'S GET IT STARTED.
WHAT ARE MPPs LIKELY TO
BE HEARING WHEN THEY
GO HOME TO THE
CONSTITUENCY THIS WEEK?
JOHN, START US OFF.

A caption reads "John Wright. Angus Reid."

John says I THINK THERE ARE GOING
TO BE TWO DIFFERENT
KINDS OF PEOPLE.
THE DEMOGRAPHICS, THE
POLLING SHOWS SUCH
A PURE SPLIT BETWEEN THOSE
WHO LOVE THIS GOVERNMENT
AND THOSE WHO HATE
THIS GOVERNMENT,
THAT THIS IS THE MOST
REMARKABLE THING
WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST NUMBER
OF YEARS COMING ABOUT.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO GET HALF
OF THEM COMING IN SAYING
YOU'RE DOING A GREAT JOB
ON THINGS LIKE DEFICIT,
JOB CREATION,
TAXES, I MEAN,
JUST KEEP GOING
THE WAY YOU ARE,
AND YOU ARE GOING TO
GET THE SECOND PERSON
COMING THROUGH THE DOOR
AND SAY ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I HATE EVERYTHING
THAT YOU ARE DOING.
I MEAN, YOU'RE STIRRING UP
TROUBLE WITH EDUCATION,
WITH DOCTORS, WITH
MUNICIPALITIES,
WITH A WHOLE
SERIES OF THINGS.
WHEREAS THIS GOVERNMENT
STARTED OFF 16 MONTHS AGO
WITH ABOUT 30 PERCENT WHO
WERE BASICALLY AGAINST IT,
AND 30 PERCENT
IN FAVOUR OF IT,
AND THE WHOLE 40 PERCENT IN
THE MIDDLE GROUND SAYING,
WELL, IT DEPENDS
ON THE ISSUE,
THAT GAP HAS NARROWED TO
VIRTUALLY 45 ON SIDE,
45 OFF SIDE, AND A VERY
NARROW MARGIN IN BETWEEN.
SO A LOT OF
BLACK AND WHITE.

Steve says JANE, WHAT'S
YOUR VIEW ON THAT?

The caption changes to "Jane Armstrong. Environics."

Jane says I THINK I AGREE WITH
JOHN THERE CERTAINLY
IS A POLARIZATION.
WE FIND HALF ARE SATISFIED
WITH THE GOVERNMENT,
ANOTHER HALF ARE
NOT SATISFIED.
BUT I HAVE TO SAY WHEN
WE LOOK AT THE NUMBERS
A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY WE SEE
THAT THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE
WHO ARE VERY DISSATISFIED
THAN VERY SATISFIED.
THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE WHO
ARE STRONGLY DISAPPROVING
OF PREMIER HARRIS'
PERFORMANCE
THAN STRONGLY
APPROVING.
SO I DON'T THINK
IT'S EXACTLY THAT
THERE'S A PERFECT
SPLIT DOWN THE MIDDLE.

Steve says LET'S JUST IN THE
INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE
HERE FIND OUT WHO'S -
ANYBODY GETTING GOVERNMENT
BUSINESS RIGHT NOW?
EITHER OF YOU
TWO, I DON'T KNOW.

John says WE HAVE LOTS
OF CLIENTS.

Steve says YOU HAVE
LOTS OF CLIENTS.
IS THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO
ONE OF YOUR CLIENTS?

John says FROM TIME TO TIME.

Steve says FROM TIME TO TIME.
SAME WITH ENVIRONICS?

Jane says WE WORK WITH A NUMBER
OF DIFFERENT CLIENTS.
HAVEN'T DONE TOO MUCH FOR
THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT RECENTLY.

Steve says NOT TOO MUCH RECENTLY.
THE BIG JOKE WHEN YOU WERE
WORKING FOR BILL DAVIS
WAS THAT BILL DAVIS WOULD
TAKE ABOUT 20 POLLS,
AND THEN WAIT A
LITTLE LONGER,
AND THEN DECIDE
TO DO SOMETHING.
I KNOW THAT'S A COMPLETELY
UNFAIR THING TO SAY,
BROTHER SEGAL, BUT HOW
MUCH DO GOVERNMENTS
LISTEN TO POLLS
GENERALLY?

The caption changes to "Hugh Segal. Progressive Conservative Advisor."

Hugh says I THINK THE ANSWER IS
GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE
A STRONG SENSE OF WHO THEY
ARE AND WHY THEY GOT
ELECTED AND WHAT THEY WANT
TO ACHIEVE SHOULD NOT
BE USING POLLING TO FIGURE
OUT WHAT THEY BELIEVE
BECAUSE I THINK THE VOTER
SEES THROUGH THAT.
IT'S THE OLD YOU
KNOW WHAT TIME IS IT,
WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT IT
TO BE KIND OF PROCESS.
I THINK, HOWEVER,
GOVERNMENTS WHO HAVE
A STRONG PROGRAM, AND
SENSE OF DIRECTION,
THIS WOULD APPLY, I WOULD
ARGUE GENERALLY TO
NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTS
WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVE
IN SOMETHING,
THEY'RE BEST
ADVISED, I THINK,
TO USE POLLS TO FIGURE OUT
HOW BEST TO IMPLEMENT
WHAT IT IS THEY BELIEVE
IN, HOW TO UNDERSTAND
THE RHYTHM OF PUBLIC TOLERANCE
AND ACCEPTABILITY.
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY OF
VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE.

Steve says IS THIS GOVERNMENT
DOING THAT?

Hugh says I BELIEVE THEY ARE.

Steve says THEY'RE POLLING TO
SEE HOW TO IMPLEMENT
THAT WHICH THEY
WANT TO DO?

Hugh says I THINK THEY'RE
TRYING TO UNDERSTAND
WHAT THE LEVEL OF
PUBLIC ANXIETY MIGHT BE
AROUND THIS ISSUE
OR THAT ISSUE.
WHAT THE LEVEL OF
PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING IS.
WHERE THEY CAN TELL THEIR
STORY MORE EFFECTIVELY.
I'D BE PRETTY DISAPPOINTED
IF THEY WEREN'T POLLING
TO UNDERSTAND THAT,
AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY.
THERE'S A MYRIAD OF SPECIALIST
INTERESTS ON THE RIGHT,
ON THE LEFT, WHO ARE ALL
ARGUING THEIR AGENDA
SHOULD BE THE
GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA.
THE GOVERNMENT HAS A DUTY
BETWEEN ELECTIONS
TO POLL THE PUBLIC AT LARGE TO
KNOW WHAT THE PUBLIC FEELS.
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT
NECESSARILY REPRESENTED
BY ANYBODY OTHER THAN THE
MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE
ON ALL SIDES.
SO I THINK POLLING IS AN
IMPORTANT PART OF STAYING
SENSITIVE AND
DEMOCRATIC.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR TAKE
ON THIS?
FIRST OF ALL
HE SLAGGED YOU.

Hugh says DID I?
I DIDN'T MEAN TO.

Steve says TORIES AND NEW
DEMOCRATICS HAVE VIEWS
AND BELIEVE IN THINGS.

Richard says IT'S UNLIKE YOU
TO SLAG LIBERALS.

Hugh says LIBERALS HAVE A
SERIES OF VERY STRONG
HIGHLY-HELD PRINCIPLES, BUT
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM,
THEY HAVE OTHERS.
SO IT'S NOT FAIR TO SAY
THEY BELIEVE IN NOTHING.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Former Ontario Liberal Party President."

Richard says HUGH, JUST WHILE YOU'RE UP
THERE ON THAT HIGH PERCH
UP THERE, HOLIER THAN
THOU THAN THE REST OF US,
THE TWO GOVERNMENTS HUGH
HAS BEEN PART OF IN THE
MOST SIGNIFICANT WAY WERE
THE BILL DAVIS GOVERNMENT
IN ONTARIO, AND THE BRIAN
MULRONEY GOVERNMENT
IN OTTAWA, HE WAS
CHIEF OF STAFF TO BOTH
OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS, AND
PARTICULARLY THE MULRONEY
GOVERNMENT REPLIED ON
PUBLIC OPINION POLLS.
MULRONEY IS PROBABLY
THE MOST SOPHISTICATED
CONSUMER OF PUBLIC OPINION
RESEARCH IN THIS COUNTRY,
I SUSPECT, BAR NONE.
AND, YOU KNOW, SO FOR
HUGH TO CLAIM SOMEHOW
THE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTS
RELY LESS ON POLLS
THAN LIBERALS OR ANY OTHER
GOVERNMENTS IS A BIT MUCH.
BUT ALL GOVERNMENTS DO
RELY ON PUBLIC OPINION POLLS.
AND I THINK WHERE HUGH IS
RIGHT THAT WHAT THEY
TEND TO DO IS THEY TEND
TO RELY ON RESEARCH FOR
TWO THINGS; ONE, HOW TO,
HAVING ESTABLISHED
A PROGRAM OR PLATFORM,
HOW BEST TO COMMUNICATE
THAT PLATFORM, AND THEN
ONCE THEY'RE IN OFFICE,
HOW TO MONITOR SORT
OF PROGRESS AND SELL
PARTICULAR INITIATIVES.
EVERY GOVERNMENT'S VERY
INFLUENCED BY PUBLIC
OPINION POLLING.
PUBLIC OPINION IS THE
MOST POWERFUL CURRENCY
IN DEMOCRACY.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS
WITH YOU, RUTH.
LET ME TRY THIS.
RIGHT NOW, WE SAW IN THE
BACKGROUND PIECE, VLTs,
THESE LOTTERY TERMINALS,
ARE RATHER UNPOPULAR.
NOW THE CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY
COME IN AND SAID WE
WANT TO DO THIS.
WE NEED THE MONEY.
AND FOR A WHOLE VARIETY
OF OTHER REASONS,
WE DON'T WANT
THE ILLEGAL ONES,
THAT PROBLEM TO BE
EXACERBATED, AND SO ON.
YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO
HAS ACTUALLY SAT AROUND
A CABINET TABLE AND ARGUED
ABOUT THESE THINGS OF THINGS.
WOULD YOU, AS A
CABINET MINISTER SAY,
THESE POLLS
ARE KILLING US,
PEOPLE DON'T WANT THESE,
LET'S CHANGE OUR MIND;
IS THAT SOMETHING YOU
COULD EVER SEE HAPPENING?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former N.D.P Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says WELL, IT DEPENDS.
I COULD CERTAINLY HAVE
SEEN IT HAPPENING
IN OUR GOVERNMENT; I
DON'T KNOW WHETHER
IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN
IN THIS GOVERNMENT.
I THINK BACK TO
HUGH'S COMMENT,
IF YOU HAVE A
STRONG CONVICTION,
YOU POLL TO FIND HOW
BEST TO IMPLEMENT IT
AND WHETHER THERE ARE
COMPROMISES YOU WANT TO MAKE.
BUT THEY'RE SO FAR
OUT ON THE VLTs.
I MEAN, WE DID NOT
INTRODUCE VLTs BECAUSE
WE FELT THESE KINDS OF
MACHINES WOULD CAUSE
THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE
ARE NOW SAYING THEY WOULD.

Steve says DID YOU POLL ON
THIS SUBJECT, ON VLTs?

Ruth says I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
WE POLLED OR NOT,
BUT WE CERTAINLY
DEBATED IT,
AND VERY STRONGLY CAME
TO THE MAJORITY VIEW
THAT WE OUGHT NOT TO
PROCEED WITH IT.
THIS GOVERNMENT MAY WELL
NOT CHANGE ITS COURSE
BECAUSE YOU BEGAN BY
SAYING WHO ARE
THEY LISTENING TO IN
THE CONSTITUENCIES,
OR WHAT ARE THEY HEARING,
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE
THEY'RE HEARING OR
LISTENING TO ANYONE OTHER
THAN THOSE WHO
SUPPORT THEM.

Richard says YOU SAW IN THE
NUMBERS WE SAW THERE
ON THE SCREEN IN
TERMS OF VLTs,
THE OPPOSITION TO THAT
IS PRETTY CONCENTRATED.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S
DRIVING RUNCIMAN'S COMMENTS.
THE OTHER THING I MIGHT
ADD WHICH IS INTERESTING,
THE ALBERTA TORIES, WHO
ACTUALLY INTRODUCED VIDEO
LOTTERY TERMINALS FIRST,
SEVERAL YEARS IN ADVANCE
OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED
HERE, LITERALLY BEGGED
THE PROVINCIAL TORIES
HERE NOT TO DO IT.
SAID IT WAS A MISTAKE,
WE REGRET DOING IT.
ONCE IT'S IN, WE
HAVE TO DO IT.
AND SAID DON'T DO IT,
IT'S GOING TO BE A MESS
IN TERMS OF ORGANIZED
CRIME, IN TERMS OF ACCESS
TO KIDS, THAT YOU WON'T
BE ABLE TO CLEAN UP.
THAT'S THE OTHER THING
THAT'S DRIVING IT.

Steve says OKAY, JOHN, LET ME
UNDERSTAND THE ROLE
OF A POLLSTER IN
THIS SITUATION.
YOU'VE BEEN OUT IN THE
FIELD, PRESUMABLY,
AND YOU'VE SURVEYED AND
FOUND OUT THAT VLTs
ARE UNPOPULAR.
PEOPLE HAVE SOME
CONCERNS ABOUT THEM.
DO YOU, THEN, IF THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO
CONTRACTS YOU
TO DO THAT POLL,
DO YOU GO BACK TO WHOMEVER
IT WAS IN THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE OR WHATEVER CABINET
MINISTER ASKED YOU TO DO
THAT AND SAY, YOU PROBABLY
OUGHT TO CHANGE YOUR MIND
ON THIS POLICY BECAUSE
IT'S A TURKEY?

John says I THINK IT'S LIKE ANY
CLIENT YOU WOULD DO WORK FOR,
WHETHER IT'S A
GOVERNMENT OR WHETHER IT'S
A CORPORATE CLIENT, AND
THAT IS FIRST OF ALL YOU
FIND OUT HOW MUCH THIS IS
GOING TO IMPALE OR
IMPAIR THE
OVERALL AGENDA.
IT MAY BE YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE
STORMING AT
CONSTITUENCY OFFICES,
BANGING DOWN THE DOORS
THIS WEEK SAYING
I WANT THAT VIDEO LOTTERY
TERMINAL OUT OF THERE.
THERE ARE MUCH HIGHER
ISSUES ON THE AGENDA.
THE SECOND THING, YOU
HAVE TO COMPLY
BY PUTTING IT IN SOME
KIND OF A CONTEXT.
I MEAN, IS THIS
IMPORTANT?
IS IT NOT?
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT
ARE THE DRIVERS OF PUBLIC
OPINION AROUND THIS ISSUE?

Hugh says I THOUGHT THE POINT,
IF I MAY SAY SO THAT JANE
MADE ABOUT THE INTENSITY
IS VERY SIGNIFICANT.
YOU CAN LOOK AT TWO
NUMBERS ON AN ISSUE,
OR ON POPULARITY.
LET'S SAY ON AN ISSUE,
AND YOU'LL FIND THERE
ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE FOR, AND
PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST.
BUT YOU MAY FIND THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE AGAINST OFTEN
ARE FAR MORE INTENSE
IN THEIR VIEW.
PEOPLE WHO ARE FOR ARE
FOR IT BUT IT'S NOT
A BIG ISSUE IN
THEIR LIVES.
SO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS
YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO ASK,
AS A CONSUMER OF POLLING
DATA IN PUBLIC LIFE,
IS WHAT'S THE SALIENCE
OF THE FINDING?
IS THE OPPOSITION ON ISSUE
"A" LIKELY TO DETERMINE
THE OVERALL VIEW OF THE AGENDA,
WHICH IS JOHN'S POINT,
OR IS IT LIKELY TO BE
LIMITED TO PEOPLE WHO JUST
HAVE A VIEW ON THAT ISSUE,
WHO MAY NOT BE A VERY
LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE.

Ruth says THERE'S ALSO A
QUESTION OF TIMING.
CAN WE RIDE THIS
THROUGH, AND BY THE TIME
WE COME TO THE
NEXT ELECTION
IT WILL NOT BE A
TOP-OF-MIND ISSUE.
AND I THINK THAT MAY WELL
BE THE CONSIDERATION ON VLTs.

Richard says AND WHERE PUBLIC
OPINION RESEARCH CAN BE
SEMINAL IN CHANGING THE
DIRECTION OF A GOVERNMENT
IS ONLY WHEN YOU GET
TO THE POINT WHERE,
HAVING TAKEN ON A MAJOR
AGENDA, A MAJOR CHALLENGE,
A CONTROVERSIAL AGENDA,
LIKE THE PROVINCIAL TORIES
HAVE, DO YOU SO ALIENATE
YOUR CORE CONSTITUENCY
THAT EVEN WITH THE PASSAGE
OF TIME YOU BEGIN TO THINK,
WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE
ABLE TO DO THIS AGAIN.
AND THE QUESTION IS, THE
INTERESTING THING RIGHT NOW
IS ARE WE ACTUALLY
NEARING THAT POINT?
THE TORIES HAVE
DROPPED IN THE POLLS,
BUT JOHN SIGNALLED THAT
AMONGST A CERTAIN GROUP
OF THE POPULATION, THEY
ARE STILL DOING WELL.

Jane says WHAT I'D LIKE TO ADD IS
WHILE THEY ARE DOING WELL
AMONG A CERTAIN SEGMENT
OF THE POPULATION,
SOME OF THOSE ISSUES AREAS
THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT
AS BEING OF GREATER
IMPORTANCE TO PEOPLE,
SUCH AS HEALTH
AND EDUCATION -

Steve says THEY'RE DOING
BADLY ON THOSE.

Jane says THEY ARE DOING VERY
BADLY ON THOSE.
AND EVEN AMONG PEOPLE WHO
WOULD TYPICALLY SUPPORT
THE CONSERVATIVES, THERE'S
A GREAT DEAL OF ANXIETY.
SORRY, I WAS GOING
TO SAY THERE'S ALSO
THE ISSUE OF
THE ENVIRONMENT.
I THINK TYPICAL TORY
SUPPORTERS ARE GETTING
A LITTLE BIT RATTLED ON
SOME OF THE THINGS
WE ARE HEARING ABOUT
THE ENVIRONMENT.

Steve says WELL, THIS
IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.
CAN I PURSUE THIS
BECAUSE I WONDER,
PREMIER HARRIS GAVE A
PRETTY SIGNIFICANT SPEECH
EARLIER THIS WEEK
ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT.
AND I WONDER WHETHER OR
NOT WE ONTARIANS
GOT THAT SPEECH BECAUSE
THE TORY GOVERNMENT -
I'M NOT SAYING THIS
IN A PEJORATIVE WAY,
I JUST WANT TO KNOW - DID
THE TORY QUESTION DO A POLL
AND IT SAID, JEEZ, WE
ARE PERCEIVED TO BE
NOT GOOD GUARDIANS OF
THE ENVIRONMENT,
I BETTER GO OUT AND
GIVE A GOOD SPEECH
ON THE ENVIRONMENT.

Ruth says THEY DIDN'T
NEED TO DO A POLL.
I MEAN, THE
ENVIRONMENTALISTS
HAVE BEEN TELLING THEM,
AND EVERYBODY'S
BEEN TELLING THEM.

Steve says YEAH, BUT NEVER MIND
THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS,
WHAT ABOUT THE
ORDINARY PUBLIC?

Ruth says IT'S FINALLY GETTING
THROUGH TO THE PUBLIC THAT
THERE'S A LONG-TERM PRICE
TO PAY FOR NOT ONLY
THE CUTS IN FUNDING,
BUT THE WEAKENING
OF ALL THE REGULATIONS.
AND THEY NOTICED THAT
SOUTH OF THE BORDER.
NEWT GINGRICH AND
OTHERS BEGAN TO MUTE
THEIR OPPOSITION TO
ENVIRONMENTAL LEGISLATION,
AND I THINK THEY'VE
LEARNED THE LESSON HERE.

Richard says AN INTERESTING PHENOMENON
WITH THESE GUYS,
I WONDER IF THEY'RE A
BIT DIFFERENT THAN
OUR TRADITIONAL
GOVERNMENTS IN OFFICE.
TRADITIONALLY, WHAT PARTIES
DO IS THEY TEND TO NARROW CAST
OR FOCUS THEIR
MESSAGE QUITE DIRECTLY
IN ORDER TO GET
ELECTED, AND APPEAL
TO A CORE CONSTITUENCY.
AND THEN ONCE IN OFFICE,
BROADEN THE BASE, RIGHT?
BOB RAE DID THAT,
DAVID PETERSON DID THAT.

Steve says BOB RAE TRIED
TO DO IT AND FAILED.

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.
WHICH IS ANOTHER
INTERESTING ISSUE.
MAYBE THEY LEARNED A
LESSON FROM BOB RAE.
BECAUSE WHAT BOB RAY DID WAS
HE ACTUALLY DID SOME THINGS
IN OFFICE THAT APPEALED TO
A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE,
AND THEY THOUGHT
THAT'S GREAT,
BUT NONE OF THOSE
PEOPLE WOULD EVER
IN A MILLION YEARS
OF VOTING FOR HIM.

Steve says HE TRIED TO
BROADEN THE BASE,
AND IN DOING SO HE
DESTROYED THE BASE.

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.
HE DIDN'T PAY
ATTENTION.

Steve says BUT IS YOUR POINT
GOING TO BE HERE THAT
THE TORIES ARE NOT INTERESTED
IN BROADENING THE BASE?

Richard says I THINK THEY'RE STILL RUNNING
AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

John says NO, I
DISAGREE WITH THAT.

Steve says YOU DISAGREE?

Richard says AND WHERE I THINK THEY
ARE MISSING SOMETHING
IS THAT I THINK HEALTHCARE
AND EDUCATION ARE,
AS JANE SAID, EVEN
AMONGST THEIR SUPPORTERS,
THEY THINK THE CUTS
THAT HAVE BEEN MADE,
AND TO FUND THE TAX CUT,
ARE CAUSING DAMAGE
TO THE TWO THINGS THEY
CARE ABOUT THE MOST.
I THINK WHAT THEY BELIEVE
IS THEY CAN NARROW
CASTS AND KEEP UP AN
ELECTION CAMPAIGN
UNLIKE MOST OTHER
GOVERNMENTS.

Ruth says CAN I SAY SOMETHING
ELSE BEFORE JOHN AND JANE
RESPOND, BECAUSE I'D LIKE
TO REALLY ADD TO THAT
THE WHOLE QUESTION
OF COMPETENCY,
AND WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT
THE PERCEPTION THAT WILL
GROW THAT THEY'RE NOT
AS COMPETENT AS THEIR OWN
SUPPORTERS WOULD
LIKE THEM TO BE.
WILL THAT ERODE SOME
OF THEIR OWN BASE?

John says I THINK THIS COMES DOWN
TO A COUPLE OF POINTS.
FIRST OF ALL,
THE FIRST 16 MONTHS,
THIS GOVERNMENT
WAS ON ITS OWN TURF.
THE POLL WHICH WE DID TWO
WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTION
CAMPAIGN ASSESSED THE
COMPETENCY OF THE NDP,
THE TORIES, AND THE
LIBERALS IN HANDLING THINGS.
AND IT WAS CLEAR THAT ON
ABOUT EIGHT POINTS DEALING
WITH EMPLOYMENT REFORM,
TAXES, FISCAL MANAGEMENT,
DEFICIT, ALL THOSE
SORT OF THINGS
THEY SCORED BIG TIME.
AND ON THE ISSUE SUCH AS
HEALTHCARE, ENVIRONMENT,
EDUCATION, SOCIAL ISSUES,
THEY SCORED WAY LOWER
ON THE LIST, AND THE
OTHER TWO PARTIES
GOT THE RANKING THERE.
SO FOR 16 MONTHS THEY
BASICALLY STUCK
TO THAT AGENDA.
NOW WE'RE INTO THE NEXT
PART OF THE AGENDA WHICH
IS THE MIDDLE THIRD OF THE
TERM OF THIS GOVERNMENT.
AND THEY'RE GOING THROUGH
A WHOLE SERIES OF ISSUES
WHICH NUMBER ONE THE
PUBLIC DIDN'T GIVE THEM
INITIAL COMPETENCY
FOR, AND NUMBER TWO,
IS JUDGING THEM ON THE
MANAGEMENT OF THOSE ISSUES,
AND WHERE THE ISSUE IS
GOING TO COME OUT
AT THE END OF THE DAY.
I MEAN, IT'S ONE THING TO
TALK ABOUT HEALTHCARE AND
HOSPITALS COMING DOWN,
BUT THE QUESTION
IS WHAT DO YOU PUT
IN ITS PLACE?

Richard says THEY UNDERSTOOD THE
POINT THAT YOU MADE
WHEN THEY PUT THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION TOGETHER
BECAUSE THEY SAID
WE'RE NOT GOING TO CUT
HEALTHCARE, WE'RE NOT
GOING TO CUT EDUCATION.
THE QUESTION IS
WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW
IN THAT SECOND PART?

John says I THINK THE MORE
IMPORTANT ISSUE IS THAT
YOU ARE DEALING WITH
CONSTITUENCIES WHO ARE
STARTING TO FORM OR
COALESCE IN SIGNIFICANT
VOCAL OPPOSITION
TO THE GOVERNMENT.
THE REAL QUESTION FOR THIS
GOVERNMENT IS NOT WHETHER
ONE PUBLIC OPINION POLL
TELLS YOU SOMETHING OR
THE OTHER THING, IT'S HOW
MANY FIRES DO YOU WANT
TO FIGHT AT THE
SAME TIME?
I MEAN, HOW MANY
BATTLES, AND HOW MANY
CONSTITUENCIES YOU WANT TO
TAKE ON AT THE SAME TIME?
WHAT CAN YOU SORT OF
MOVE THE PACE LEVEL AT,
SO YOU CAN CRANK
DOWN WITH DOCTORS -

Steve says A POLL CAN'T
HELP YOU ON THAT.

John says AND THAT'S RIGHT BECAUSE IT
SIMPLY PROVIDES A CONTEXT
IN THE ENVIRONMENT WHICH
ONES YOU CAN GO THROUGH.
AND THIS
GOVERNMENT, I THINK,
IN THE NEXT NUMBER OF
MONTHS IS GOING TO HAVE
TO DECIDE, NOT SO MUCH HOW
MUCH ENERGY IT'S GOT
TO PUSH ITS AGENDA FORWARD,
BUT HOW MUCH ENERGY IS
GOING TO EXPEND WITH ALL
THOSE OTHER CONSTITUENCY
GROUPS IN THE MIDDLE
PART OF ITS CAMPAIGN
AND DEAL WITH.

Richard says I'D LIKE TO HEAR BOTH YOUR
VIEWS ON WHAT'S THE SOCIAL
COST IN - JOHN IDENTIFIED
A DIVIDED PUBLIC.
SOME WERE SAYING THEY'RE
GOING A GREAT JOB,
SOME SAY THEY'RE DOING
NOT SUCH A GREAT JOB.
ESSENTIALLY, WHAT WE'VE
SEEN OVER THE LAST YEAR
AND A HALF IS THAT
PUBLIC OPINION,
THAT PUBLIC BEING
RIVEN BY THESE TWO -

Steve says POLARIZATIONS.

Richard says THIS POLARIZED VIEW.
AT SOME POINT IN TIME
THERE'S GOING TO BE
A SOCIAL COST, AN US AND
THEM MENTALITY SETTING
IN AMONGST THE GOVERNMENT,
AND MOST GOVERNMENTS,
TORY, LIBERAL, AND
OTHERWISES, NDP,
HAVE BATTLED
AGAINST THAT.

Steve says THAT'S ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE
THEY'RE SORT OF GOING
FIXATING ON THEIR
40 TO 45 PERCENT,
AND TO HELL WITH
EVERYBODY ELSE.
AND YOU DISAGREED
WITH THAT.
JANE, TELL ME.

Jane says I'D JUST LIKE TO MAKE THE
POINT WE'RE FINDING
IN OUR RESEARCH, CERTAINLY,
THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING,
PEOPLE SUPPORT
THE DIRECTION
THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING.
WHEN THE GOVERNMENT
TALKED ABOUT RESTORING
THE BALANCE BETWEEN THE
INDIVIDUAL AND THE STATE,
AND STREAMLINING
GOVERNMENT, REDUCING TAXES,
REDUCING SPENDING,
PEOPLE BOUGHT
INTO THAT, AND
THEY STILL DO.
THEY GENERALLY SUPPORT
THAT KIND OF AGENDA.
BUT WHAT WE'RE FINDING IN
OUR RESEARCH IS THERE
ARE THESE SUBSTANTIVE AREAS
PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT,
HEALTH AND EDUCATION,
FOR EXAMPLE,
BUT THEY'RE ALSO VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT PROCESS ISSUES.
WE'RE ONTARIANS, AFTER ALL,
WE'RE NOT REVOLUTIONARIES.
PEOPLE ARE TELLING US
THEY'RE GOING TOO FAST.
TOO MUCH, TOO FAST, AND
NOT ENOUGH CONSULTATION.
THAT'S A REALLY
KEY THING.

Ruth says AND SURELY ALSO
BEGINNING TO DEMONSTRATE
THAT WHILE THEY SAID
THEY WOULDN'T TOUCH
THE CLASSROOM, IN FACT, IT
IS AFFECTING THE CLASSROOM.
SO WHILE THEY MAY SUPPORT
THE STREAMLINING AS
IT BEGINS TO AFFECT MORE
AND MORE PEOPLE, THEY SAY,
HEY, IS THIS TAX SCHEME
THAT'S GOING TO BENEFIT
ME REALLY WORTH IT?

Jane says YES.

Steve says SORRY, I WANT
TO DECONSTRUCT
THE NOTION OF PEOPLE.
YOU JUST SAID PEOPLE FEEL
THIS, PEOPLE FEEL THAT.
IN FACT, IT'S REALLY
MORE WOMEN, ISN'T IT?
THERE'S A REAL GENDER GAP
WITH THIS GOVERNMENT,
A LA WHAT WE SAW IN THE
UNITED STATES
WITH THE REPUBLICANS
AND BOB DOLE.
WOMEN DON'T SUPPORT
THIS GOVERNMENT
IN THE WAY MEN DO.
WHAT DO WE INFER
FROM THAT?
I FOUND THAT VERY
INTERESTING.

Jane says YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,
THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT
GENDER GAP.
AND IT'S NOT JUST ON THE PARTY
PREFERENCE QUESTIONS.

Ruth says IS IT ON
ISSUES, THOUGH?

Jane says IT'S ON ISSUES, AND I THINK
WHAT IS PROBABLY ONE
OF THE MAIN THINGS DRIVING
THAT IS CONCERN
ABOUT HEALTHCARE
AND EDUCATION.
WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY
THAN MEN TO SAY THEY SEE
A DETERIORATION IN THE
QUALITY OF THE EDUCATION
THAT THEIR KIDS
ARE GETTING TODAY,
COMPARED TO
A YEAR AGO.
THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO
SAY THEY'RE HAVING
PROBLEMS GETTING TO
SEE THEIR DOCTORS.

Steve says IN FACT, I DON'T KNOW
WHOSE NUMBER THIS IT,
FORGIVE ME, I FORGET
WHICH ONE OF YOU,
BUT I'VE GOT A NUMBER HERE
THAT SAYS 63 PERCENT
OF MEN IN FAVOUR OF
THIS GOVERNMENT,
46 PERCENT OF WOMEN IN
FAVOUR OF THE DIRECTION
GOVERNMENT IS GOING.
THAT'S A PRETTY
SIGNIFICANT SPLIT.

John says NO DIFFERENT REALLY
THAN IT WAS AT THE OUTSET.
I MEAN THERE ARE TWO
STORIES TO THIS.
ONE YOU CAN LOOK AT
RESEARCH AND SAY
IT'S DEMOGRAPHICS, OR
SPECIFIC COHORTS WITHIN.
THE OTHER THING I'M
FINDING MORE AND MORE
IN OUR RESEARCH BOTH
QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVELY
IS SURROGATE ANGER.
THERE IS A
NOTION OUT THERE,
OR SURROGATE SUPPORT OF,
THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY
IS MY FRIEND.
I MEAN, IT'S A PERFECT
EXAMPLE OF THE DAYS
OF PROTEST WHERE YOU IN
FACT HAD 21 PERCENT
WHO BASICALLY WOULD SAY THE
UNIONS WERE BANG ON SIDE,
BUT YOU GET ANOTHER 2O
PERCENT WHO PILE ON
SAYING, I DON'T
LIKE THE UNIONS,
BUT I'M SURE WITH YOU
WHEN IT GOES TO PROTEST.
IT CAN WORK THE
OTHER WAY, TOO.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE DOCTORS'
ISSUES THAT DEALT
WITH YOU WHEN YOU WERE
MINISTER, I MEAN,
THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON
THE DOCTORS' SIDE THEN
WERE ALL THE TORIES.
IT WAS THE WHITE
COLLAR TORY VOTE
WHO WAS SMACK IN
BEHIND THEM.

Ruth says AND THE DOCTORS
VOTED FOR THE TORIES,
DON'T FORGET.

John says THAT'S RIGHT.
AND NOW IT'S COMPLETELY
THE OPPOSITE.
IT'S LIBERAL, NEW DEMOCRAT
VOTERS, IT'S FEMALES,
IT'S A WHOLE GROUP OF
PEOPLE WHO IN FACT -

Hugh says WHERE ARE
THEY NOW?

John says AND THEY'RE IN FACT ARE
BEHIND THE DOCTORS,
WHO IN FACT ARE ARGUING
FOR WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
SO THE COALITIONS HAVE
CHANGED BECAUSE
THE TARGET HAS CHANGED.

Steve says LET ME JUST GET
A SENSE FROM HUGH,
JUST WITH A COUPLE OF
MINUTES LEFT HERE I WANT
TO GET THIS FROM YOU,
HUGH, BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN
SO QUIET LATELY, I WANT
TO GET YOU BACK IN HERE.
IF THE GOVERNMENT IS SEEING
NUMBERS SUCH AS TWO-THIRDS
OF THE PEOPLE NOT LIKING,
EXCUSE ME, THE HEALTHCARE,
OR THE EDUCATIONAL
DIRECTION WHAT DO YOU,
AS A SENIOR ADVISOR TO
THIS GOVERNMENT GO BACK
AND TELL THEM TO DO
DIFFERENTLY SO THAT
THOSE NUMBERS STOP SCARING
PEOPLE SO MUCH?

Hugh says WELL, WE'LL LEAVE THE
SPECIFICS ASIDE FOR THE
MOMENT, GENERAL PRINCIPLE,
IF THING IS WORTH DOING,
IT'S WORTH DOING
GRADUALLY.
THAT'S PART OF THE
ONTARIO CULTURE.

Richard says SPOKEN LIKE
A TRUE LIBERAL.

Ruth says A FABIAN,
AFTER ALL, WOW.

Hugh says AND I GUESS I WOULD
ARGUE, TOO, WE NOW HAVE,
YOU KNOW THE TERM IN
THE WAR MEASURES' ACT,
AN APPREHENDED
INSURRECTION.
WE HAVE AN APPREHENDED
SERIES OF CHANGES
THAT ACTUALLY
HAVEN'T STARTED.
WE HAVE A SERIES OF IMPACTS
THAT ALL THE INTEREST
GROUPS ARE ADDRESSING
THEMSELVES TO,
AS THEY HAVE
EVERY RIGHT TO DO,
AND TALKING AT THE LONG
TERM EFFECT OF ALL THIS,
WHEN, IN FACT, NONE OF THE
CHANGES HAVE ACTUALLY
TRANSPIRED YET IN
LARGE MEASURE.

Ruth says BUT HUGH, THERE'S
ALSO A SMOKE SCREEN
ELEMENT IN ALL OF THIS.

Hugh says BUT THE CRITICAL
PROBLEM, THEREFORE,
AND THE CHALLENGE FOR THE
GOVERNMENT IS TO STAY TRUE
TO ITS FISCAL AND ECONOMIC
AGENDA WHILE MAINTAINING
THE STRONG COMMITMENT TO
QUALITY IN EDUCATION
AND HEALTHCARE WHICH
IS FUNDAMENTAL
TO HOW OUR SOCIETY
OPERATES.

Steve says TWO-THIRDS OF THE
PEOPLE SURVEYED DON'T
BELIEVE THAT'S
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

Hugh says NOW, NOW, ASK
YOURSELF THIS.

Steve says YES.

Hugh says IF THE QUESTION WAS
ASKED 5 YEARS AGO,
10 YEARS, AGO,
15 YEARS AGO,
DO YOU THINK THE SCHOOL
SYSTEM IS DOING WELL?
THE ANSWER IS, A LOT OF
PEOPLE WOULD HAVE SAID
ACTUALLY NO, WE THINK
THERE'S BEEN A DECLINE.

Jane says WELL, I THINK YOU'RE
RIGHT EVERYBODY ALWAYS
SAYS JOHNNY CAN'T READ;
EDUCATION HAS NEVER BEEN
AS GOOD AS WHEN
I WAS A KID.
BUT OUR TRACKING DATA THAT
GOES BACK IN ONTARIO -

Hugh says THEY TRULY SAY FIVE
YEARS AGO, ARE THE QUEUES
TOO LONG FOR
ELECTIVE SURGERY?
THEY WOULD HAVE
SAID YES.

Jane says YES, THAT'S FOR SURE
IN TERMS OF THAT ISSUE.

Ruth says BUT THEIR
CONFIDENCE IN THE QUALITY
OF THE SYSTEM.

Jane says BUT WHEN WE TRACK THE
PUBLIC'S APPROVAL
OF THE GOVERNMENT'S HANDLING
OF A NUMBER OF ISSUE AREAS,
AND IN THE LAST 10 YEARS
THE PUBLIC HAS ALWAYS SAID
THEY APPROVE THE
GOVERNMENT'S HANDLING
OF HIGHWAYS, CONSTRUCTION
AND MAINTENANCE,
THAT'S ALWAYS AT THE TOP.
AND ALSO AT THE TOP
HAS BEEN EDUCATION AND
HEALTHCARE, THOSE THINGS
WE HAVE HELD DEAR.

Steve says BUT NOT NOW.

Jane says AND IN THE LAST
LITTLE WHILE,
THERE HAVE BEEN QUITE A
DIVE IN TERMS OF APPROVAL
OF THE GOVERNMENT'S
HANDLING OF THOSE AREAS.

Steve says 20 SECONDS, LET ME GIVE
YOU THE LAST WORD ON THIS.

John says I THINK IT'S GOING
TO BE VERY TOUGH.
THEY'RE IN NO MAN'S
LAND RIGHT NOW.
THEY'VE GOT TO, I THINK,
COME OUT OF THIS SAYING
WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO BE
GOING OVER THE NEXT PERIOD
OF TIME WITH SOME OF
THESE DELICATE ISSUES.
AND MUCH LIKE
HUGH SAID, I MEAN,
IT IS A GRADUAL
IMPLEMENTATION,
THE PACE MAY BE TOO FAST
ON SOME OF THESE THINGS.
I THINK THE CRITICAL
ISSUE FOR THEM TO DECIDE
IN THE NEXT NUMBER OF
MONTHS IS HOW MUCH ENERGY
DO YOU WANT TO PUT INTO
FIGHTING BATTLES,
AS OPPOSED TO
WINNING BATTLES.
AND I THINK THAT'S
GOING TO BE THE KEY.

Steve says THAT'S GOT TO
BE THE LAST WORD TODAY.
JOHN WRIGHT
FROM ANGUS REID,
JANE ARMSTRONG
FROM ENVIRONICS.
THANK YOU BOTH
FOR JOINING US.
GANG, WE'LL SEE YOU
AGAIN NEXT TIME.
AND BY THE BY, WE'D LIKE TO
THANK ALL OF YOU WHO EMAIL
US AND WRITE TO US
ABOUT OUR PROGRAM.
WE APPRECIATE
THE FEEDBACK.
HERE'S ONE FOR HUGH SEGAL;

He shows a printed email.

He says I'M GOING TO GIVE IT TO
HIM IN A SECOND.
YOU CAN ALSO REACH
US INCIDENTALLY AT:

A slate appears with a caption that reads "4th Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1."

Steve says OR REACH US
IN CYBERSPACE AT:

Another slate appears. It reads "4th Reading. Internet address: fourth_reading@tvo.org."

Steve says GOOD.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1996, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #77