Transcript: Show #50 | Jan 21, 1996

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
THE PREMIER'S CONFIDANT.

Bill says WHY WOULD WE NOT CONSIDER
PRIVATIZING NUCLEAR?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Marilyn Churley. NDP Energy Critic." Marilyn is in her forties with short black hair.

Marilyn says WHO'S GOING TO BUY
NUCLEAR PLANTS?
WE WANT TO SELL
OFF NUCLEAR PLANTS,
WHO'S GOING TO
CARRY THE DEBT?

Steve says WHAT LIES AHEAD
FOR ONTARIO HYDRO
WITH MIKE HARRIS' TRUSTED
AIDE AT THE HELM?

Steve and three panelists sit with one guest around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt and patterned brown tie.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY,
THANKS FOR JOINING US
FOR ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
WHO IS PREMIER MIKE HARRIS'
MOST TRUSTED ADVISER?
WELL, YOU CAN START A GOOD
ARGUMENT WITH TORIES
ABOUT WHO'D WIN
THAT PRIZE.
MANY OF THE NAMES
YOU'VE HEARD BEFORE.
TODAY WE INTRODUCE YOU TO
SOMEONE YOU MAY NOT KNOW
BUT WHO MAY, IN FACT, BE
AT THE TOP OF THAT LIST.
HIS NAME IS
BILL FARLINGER.
HE'S THE FORMER BOSS OF THE
HUGE CONSULTING COMPANY
ERNST and YOUNG, AND HIS
FRIEND MIKE HARRIS
JUST MADE HIM CHAIRMAN
OF ONTARIO HYDRO.
THERE'S A LOT TO TALK TO
BILL FARLINGER ABOUT,
BUT FIRST WE THOUGHT WE'D
SHOW YOU SOME OF THE ISSUES
THAT ARE CURRENTLY
ON HIS PLATE.

A clip plays.

Steve says POWER AND POLITICS
HAVE ALWAYS
BEEN A POTENT MIX
AT ONTARIO HYDRO.
SINCE ONTARIO HYDRO
WAS CREATED IN 1907,
SUCCESSIVE PREMIERS HAVE
USED THE UTILITY
TO FUEL THE PROVINCE'S
ECONOMIC ENGINE:
PROVIDING CHEAP ELECTRICAL
POWER TO INDUSTRY.
AND TO DO THAT, THEY HAVE
TURNED TO THEIR CONFIDANTS.

Employees work in a car factory.

At the Legislature, a female politician says MSTER FARLINGER BRINGS
WIDE-RANGING, PRIVATE SECTOR
EXPERIENCE AND A
BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE
TO THIS POSITION.

Steve says IT WAS NO DIFFERENT
WHEN MIKE HARRIS
APPOINTED HIS CLOSE
FRIEND AND THE HEAD
OF HIS TRANSITION TEAM
TO CHAIR ONTARIO HYDRO.
THE TORIES HAVE BEEN
CLEAR, THEY'RE CONSIDERING
PRIVATIZING ONTARIO HYDRO
AND SO IS BILL FARLINGER.
IN A REPORT FARLINGER
CO-AUTHORED ON THE FUTURE
OF HYDRO; HE SAYS IT'S
NOT A QUESTION OF IF,
BUT A QUESTION OF WHEN AND
HOW HYDRO'S ASSETS
WILL BE SOLD TO THE
PRIVATE SECTOR.

The caption changes to "Bill Farlinger. Ontario Hydro Chairman." Bill is in his seventies, clean-shaven with receding blond hair.

Bill says I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU
CAN GET COMPETITION
IN THE PROVINCE WHEN WE
HAVE A MONOPOLY NOW,
UNLESS SOME PARTS OF
THE GENERATION -
NOT NECESSARILY ALL -
BUT AT LEAST SOME PARTS
OF THE GENERATION ARE
SOLD OFF TO OTHERS.

Steve says ONE OF THE MOST
CONTROVERSIAL ELEMENTS
OF PRIVATIZATION IS THE
OPTION OF SELLING
ONTARIO HYDRO'S NUCLEAR
POWER PLANTS.
IN THE MOST RECENT
DEVELOPMENTS AT ONTARIO HYDRO,
ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY
MINISTER BRENDA ELLIOT
FIRED FIVE OF THE
MOST CRITICAL VOICES
ON HYDRO'S 22-MEMBER BOARD.

The caption changes to "Brenda Elliot. Environment and Energy Minister." Brenda is in her late forties with short light brown hair. She’s wearing a bright pink blazer with white lapels.

Brenda says IN OUR VIEW, THE ROLE OF
THE BOARD OF ONTARIO HYDRO
IS TO PROVIDE THE BEST
MANAGEMENT TO ONE
OF THE LARGEST UTILITIES
IN NORTH AMERICA,
AND THEY WILL DO THAT IN
CO-OPERATION WITH THE POLICY
DECISIONS THAT ARE
MADE BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Steve says JOHN MURPHY, PRESIDENT
OF THE POWER WORKERS' UNION,
WAS ONE OF THE BOARD
MEMBERS RECENTLY DISMISSED.

The caption changes to "John Murphy. President, Power Workers’ Union." John is in his late forties, with a beard and white hair. He’s wearing a black suit, white shirt and colourful tie.

John says ANY OPPOSITION ON THE BOARD
OF DIRECTORS HAS BEEN REMOVED
SO THAT FARLINGER
CAN HAVE A HYDRO BOARD
OF DIRECTORS THAT'S BASICALLY
GOING TO BE A RUBBER STAMP
FOR HIS AGENDA AROUND
PRIVATIZATION OF ONTARIO HYDRO.

Steve says THIS MOVE
WORRIES EVEN SUPPORTERS
OF PRIVATIZATION.

The caption changes to "Tom Adams. Energy Probe." Tom is in his thirties, clean-shaven with grayish hair. He’s wearing glasses, an olive green suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

Tom says TO US IT SIGNALS
POLITICIZATION
OF THE MANAGEMENT
OF ONTARIO HYDRO.
IF WE LOOK BACK OVER
THE LONG HISTORY
OF THE UTILITY, WE CAN SEE
MANY, MANY OCCASIONS
WHERE POLITICIZATION OF
MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN
A PROFOUNDLY NEGATIVE
PHENOMENON.

Steve says SUPPORTERS OF
PRIVATIZATION SAY ONTARIO
HYDRO HAS TO BE RADICALLY
RESTRUCTURED TO RESPOND
TO A CHANGING
MARKETPLACE.

Tom continues THERE'S A MAJOR THREAT TO
ONTARIO HYDRO IF THE BORDER
OPENS UP AND FREE TRADE
IN ELECTRICITY STARTS
TO BECOME A REALITY, THAT
ONTARIO HYDRO WILL HAVE
TO PRICE AT MARKET,
WHICH THEY CANNOT MEET.

Steve says BUT CRITICS QUESTION
WHETHER SELLING HYDRO'S
ASSETS WILL ACTUALLY
LOWER ELECTRICITY RATES.

John says THE U.K. IS BEING HELD
UP BY BILL FARLINGER
AS BEING THE MODEL FOR
ONTARIO TO FOLLOW,
BUT IN THE U.K., IF YOU
WERE IN THE U.K.,
YOUR ELECTRICITY BILL
WOULD BE DOUBLE WHAT
IT IS IN ONTARIO.

Marilyn says THERE IS ALL KINDS
OF EVIDENCE THAT -
AND CONCERNS AROUND THE FACT
THAT THE ORDINARY PERSON
COULD END UP PAYING
HIGHER FOR THEIR RATES.
IT'S HAPPENED
IN THE STATES.
IT'S HAPPENED
IN ENGLAND.

Steve says MEANTIME, FORMER
FEDERAL LIBERAL MINISTER,
DONALD MACDONALD
HAS BEEN APPOINTED
TO STUDY HYDRO'S
FUTURE.
HE EXPECTS TO
HAVE HIS REPORT
ON THE PREMIER'S
DESK BY APRIL.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY, WITH ALL
OF THIS IN MIND,
LET'S TAKE A LOOK INSIDE
OUR FACT FILE AND FIND OUT
A LITTLE BIT MORE
ABOUT ONTARIO HYDRO.

A slate shows a red diamond that reads "Fact File."

Steve continues IT HAS ASSETS OF
44 BILLION DOLLARS BUT ALSO
CARRIES A DEBT
OF 33 BILLION DOLLARS.
1994 IT MADE A PROFIT
OF 587 MILLION DOLLARS.
THE UTILITY CURRENTLY
EMPLOYS ABOUT 21,400 PEOPLE,
THAT IS AFTER CUTTING
10,000 JOBS
SINCE 1993
THROUGH OFFERING
VOLUNTARY SEVERANCE
PACKAGES.
NOW WHEN IT COMES TO RATES,
HYDRO HAS COMMITTED ITSELF
TO A FIVE YEAR FREEZE AND
AS TO HOW HYDRO PRODUCES
ITS ELECTRICITY, 60 PERCENT
FROM NUCLEAR PLANTS,
25 PERCENT GENERATED THROUGH
HYDROELECTRIC FACILITIES,
AND 15 PERCENT
THROUGH FOSSIL FUELS.
ALL THOSE FIGURES INCIDENTALLY
COURTESY ONTARIO HYDRO.

The diamond opens, and the slate changes to show the data Steve mentioned.

Steve continues OKAY LET'S NOW INTRODUCE
PERHAPS MISTER HARRIS'
MOST TRUSTED ADVISER, THE
HEAD OF THE TRANSITION TEAM,
AND HYDRO'S TOP OFFICIAL,
WELCOME, BILL FARLINGER.
GLAD YOU COULD
BE HERE TODAY.

Bill says THANK YOU, STEVE.

Steve continues YOU KNOW OUR QUEEN'S
PARK GANG HERE OF
HUGH MACKENZIE, PATRICK
GOSSAGE, AND JANE PEPINO.
AND LET US GET
RIGHT TO IT.
PRIVATIZATION.
WHAT KIND?
SELLING SHARES
TO THE PUBLIC?
SELLING ASSETS TO
THE PRIVATE SECTOR?
GIVING THE EMPLOYEES
A CHANCE TO BUY IN?
WHAT ARE YOUR
THOUGHTS ON THAT?

Bill says WELL, MY THOUGHTS
WOULD BE, IT COULD BE
ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

The caption changes to "Bill Farlinger. Chairman, Ontario Hydro." Bill is wearing glasses, a blue suit, white shirt and patterned gray tie.

Bill continues PERSONALLY, MY OBJECTIVE
IS NOT TO PRIVATIZE HYDRO.
WHAT THE OBJECTIVE IS, IS
TO CREATE COMPETITION,
PARTICULARLY IN
THE GENERATION.
AND I DON'T KNOW HOW, WHEN
YOU GENERATE 93 PERCENT
OF THE ELECTRICITY IN THE
PROVINCE YOU CAN HAVE
COMPETITION IF YOU DON'T
SELL PART OF IT OFF.

Steve asks WHY DO WE NEED
COMPETITION?

Bill replies WE NEED COMPETITION BECAUSE
WE ARE GETTING IT RIGHT
NOW AND WE'RE GOING TO
GET A LOT MORE OF IT,
WHETHER WE NEED IT
OR NOT.
THE FINAL ANSWER,
THOUGH, OF COURSE,
IS THAT OUR PRICES
WILL BE LOWER.

Steve says LET ME READ A QUOTE TO
YOU FROM JOHN MURPHY,
WHO WE SAW FROM THE
POWER WORKERS' UNION.
HE'S HANDING OUT A
DOCUMENT THAT SAYS,
"IT WOULD BE UNBELIEVABLY
ARROGANT FOR A GOVERNMENT
TO ASSUME THAT IT CAN
CASUALLY DISPOSE OF THIS
GREAT INHERITANCE IN THE
ABSENCE OF AN INFORMED
CONSENSUS BY HYDRO'S
ACTUAL OWNERS,
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO."
DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WANT
THIS THING PRIVATIZED?

Bill says I THINK PEOPLE WANT LOW
ELECTRIC PRICES AND
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET
THEM UNLESS WE GET
SOME COMPETITION IN
THIS INDUSTRY.

Steve says YOU'RE SURE PRIVATIZATION
WILL GET YOU
LOWER PRICES FOR PEOPLE?

Bill says LET'S BE CLEAR THAT I'M
NOT TALKING ABOUT
PRIVATIZING A MONOPOLY.
THEY DID THAT
IN NOVA SCOTIA.
WE'RE NOT TALKING
ABOUT DOING THAT.
WHAT I HAVE BEEN
RECOMMENDING IS THAT
WE SHOULD HAVE SAY THREE OR
FOUR GENERATING COMPANIES
COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER
AND COMPETING
WITH THE AMERICAN IMPORTERS
AND COMPETING WITH
NEW GENERATION.
THAT'S THE OBJECTIVE.

Steve says YOU HAVE A PROBLEM
WITH ANY OF THIS?

Hugh is in his forties, clean-shaven with receding curly hair. He’s wearing round glasses, a gray suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

Hugh says WELL, I THINK THE
BASIC PROBLEM,
AND I THINK JOHN MURPHY
PUTS HIS FINGER ON IT,
THAT THIS IS IDEOLOGY
LOOKING FOR A RATIONALE
AND I THINK RATHER THAN
HAVING PUBLIC HEARINGS,
THEY OUGHT TO PUT ADS IN
THE PERSONALS' COMMENT -
THE PERSONALS' COLUMNS.

The caption changes to "Hugh Mackenzie. Former Aide to Bob Rae."

Hugh continues IDEOLOGY SEEKS
RATIONALE.
MUST BE PLAUSIBLE.
THERE HAS BEEN NO CASE MADE
FOR THIS DRAMATIC CHANGE
AND I THINK THAT'S
THE PROBLEM THAT
THE GOVERNMENT'S GOING TO
RUN INTO AS IT MOVES
THROUGH THIS.

Steve says PATRICK, IS THERE
A CASE MADE?

Patrick Gossage is in his late forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a gray suit, cream shirt and tie in pastel colours.

Patrick says WELL, I MEAN, IT'S A
NATURAL MONOPOLY AND I'VE
GLAD YOU CLARIFIED THINGS
AND I THINK THE PROBLEM
I HAVE IS THAT - IS NOT SO
MUCH - I'M NOT REALLY SURE
THAT YOU CAN CREATE
COMPETITION
BY HAVING A PRIVATE
INVESTOR INVEST IN A HUGE
GENERATING PLANT AND
ANOTHER ONE INVEST IN ANOTHER.

The caption changes to "Patrick Gossage. Liberal Activist."

Patrick continues I'M UNCLEAR AS TO HOW THAT
WOULD BE DONE AND HOW THAT
WOULD IN FACT LOWER PRICES
BECAUSE YOU'RE ASKING
FOR CONSIDERABLE PRIVATE
INVESTMENT AND SURELY
THEY'RE GOING TO WANT A
GUARANTEED MARKET
BEFORE THEY
INVEST IN A PLAN.
AND THE OTHER QUESTION
I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU,
BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING
THAT I THINK'S REALLY
INTERESTING, IS THAT THE
WHOLE CO-GENERATION
THING WHICH ONTARIO HYDRO IN
THE PAST HAS DISCOURAGED.
IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU
HAVE A PLANT NEAR
A NICE WATERFALL AND YOU
WANT TO HARNESS THAT,
ONTARIO HYDRO SAYS, OH,
NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

Steve says IN THE PAST
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE
TO DO THAT.

Patrick says YEAH, AND I
MEAN, I WONDER, BILL,
IF THAT'S SOMETHING YOU'RE
GOING TO OPEN UP BECAUSE,
I MEAN, THAT KIND OF
COMPETITION TO HYDRO
IN AN INDIVIDUAL AREA FOR A
PLANT I FOUND REALLY BIZARRE
THAT THE MONOPOLY WOULD
HAVE BEEN ENFORCED
THAT STRICTLY IN
THE PAST.

Steve says WHAT'S THE SCORE
ON THAT?

Bill says WELL, HYDRO HAS DECLARED
THAT IT BELIEVES THAT IT
SHOULD BE READY FOR OPEN
ACCESS BY THE YEAR 2000.
OPEN ACCESS MEANS,
ANYBODY WHO WANTS,
CAN GENERATE
ELECTRICITY.

Patrick says FOR THEMSELVES.

Bill says FOR THEMSELVES
OR FOR THE GRID.
THAT'S WHAT OPEN
ACCESS IS.

Patrick says THAT'S A LOT DIFFERENT THAN
THE KIND OF PRIVATIZATION
THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
OF INDIVIDUAL -
OF AN INDIVIDUAL BEING ABLE TO,
WHO'S GOING TO INVEST
THE KIND OF MONEY IT'S
GOING TO TAKE TO REALLY
CREATE COMPETITION
FOR BIG GENERATION?
THAT'S WHAT I'D
LIKE TO KNOW,
WITHOUT SOME GUARANTEE
FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

Bill says FIRST, WE DON'T NEED ANY
ADDITIONAL GENERATION,
NOT FOR THE
FORESEEABLE FUTURE.
WE HAVE TOO MUCH
GENERATION RIGHT NOW.
DEMAND IS GOING
DOWN AND WE'VE GOT
TOO MUCH SUPPLY.
SO HAVE OUR
NEIGHBOURS.
AT THE MOMENT, WE'RE
SITTING WITH THE AMERICANS
TO THE SOUTH OF US, HIGHER
COST PRODUCERS THAN WE ARE,
LARGELY DUE TO THE PRICE
OF THE CANADIAN DOLLAR.
SO WE'RE FORTUNATE THERE.
OUR NEIGHBOURS FROM QUEBEC
AND OUR NEIGHBOURS
IN MANITOBA, THEY HAVE MUCH
CHEAPER POWER THAN WE HAVE.
THEY'RE GOING TO START
SELLING INTO OUR MARKET.

Steve says HOW WILL YOU GET YOUR DEBT
FURTHER DOWN THOUGH
IF PRESUMABLY YOU
START SELLING OFF
THE MORE PROFITABLE
ASPECTS OF HYDRO?
AND YOU ARE ABLE TO TAKE
IN LESS MONEY AS A RESULT?

Bill says THAT'S THE ISSUE.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ONTARIO
DO THIS SOONER RATHER THAN
LATER BECAUSE I BELIEVE
AND WE'VE HAD A LOT
OF CORROBORATION OF THIS
FROM FINANCIAL ADVISERS,
I BELIEVE THAT WE
COULD GET OUT NOW.
I THINK WE CAN GET
OUT WITH THE DEBT.
I THINK WHEN THE
COMPETITION REALLY HITS US
THREE, FOUR, FIVE
YEARS FROM NOW,
WE MAY NOT GET OUT
AND THE TAXPAYERS
CAN PICK UP THE BURDEN.

Patrick says BUT WHO'S GOING TO BUY
SOME OF THESE PLANTS
THAT WE ALL KNOW ARE
WHITE ELEPHANTS?

Bill says THERE'S LOT OF
ORGANIZATIONS
THAT WILL BUY THEM.

Patrick says TO SELL THE
POWER WHERE?
I DON'T KNOW.
I'M REALLY FINDING IT
DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND,
IF WE'RE OVER SUPPLY, WHO'S
GOING TO WANT THE PLANTS
THAT ARE ALREADY WHITE
ELEPHANTS THAT ARE PART
OF THE OVER
SUPPLY PROBLEM?

Bill says WE ARE LOW-COST GENERATORS
IN A FUNNY SENSE.
IF WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY
DEBT, THE NUCLEAR
IS VERY LOW-COST
GENERATION.
SO IT'S ATTRACTIVE
AT A PRICE.

Steve says YOU CAN SELL NUCLEAR
REACTORS IN THIS PROVINCE?

Bill says SURE.

Steve says YOU CAN?
WHO'S GOING TO
BUY THEM?

Bill says THERE ARE PEOPLE
AGGREGATING NUCLEAR PLANTS
RIGHT NOW IN THE
UNITED STATES.

Hugh says THE TERMS UNDER WHICH
SOMEONE WOULD BUY A NUCLEAR
PLANT I THINK WOULD JUST
BE PATHETICALLY UNBALANCED
AGAINST THE INTERESTS OF
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO,
FOR ONE THING.
YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM
DOLLAR THAT A BUYER
IS NOT GOING TO WANT TO TAKE ON
THE DEBT THAT WAS INCURRED
TO ACQUIRE THOSE ASSETS.
AND SECONDLY, I THINK THAT
I THINK YOU'D FIND THAT
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO WOULD
END UP HAVING TO GUARANTEE
ANY ENVIRONMENTAL
LIABILITIES ASSOCIATED WITH -

Steve says CAN YOU GET INSURANCE?
CAN YOU GET INSURANCE IF
YOU WANT TO GET INTO
THE NUCLEAR BUSINESS
IN THIS PROVINCE?

Patrick says PRIVATE OPERATORS OF
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS
HAVEN'T GOT A GREAT
REPUTATION AROUND THE WORLD.
IF YOU THINK OF THREE MILE
ISLAND AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
I THINK THE PUBLIC
OF ONTARIO WOULD FEEL
MUCH BETTER IF THE
NUCLEAR - I KNOW,
BUT IF THE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS
REMAINED IN PUBLIC HANDS.

Jane Pepino is in her forties with short gray hair. She’s wearing a purple blazer over a green and lilac blouse.

Jane says PATRICK, ALL THAT IS,
IS A PRIVATE UTILITY
AS OPPOSED TO A
PUBLIC ONE.

The caption changes to "Jane Pepino. Ontario Tory Activist."

Jane continues I MEAN, PART OF - ONE OF
THE POTENTIAL PURCHASERS
THEORETICALLY COULD
BE JUST, AS YOU SAY,
CO-GENERATORS CAN DO
IT ON A SMALL SCALE.
THEORETICALLY I SUPPOSE
SOME LARGE USER MIGHT BY
TO BE - EXACTLY MIGHT WANT TO
BE ABLE TO GUARANTEE THEIR
OWN SUPPLIES, TO BE ABLE TO
CONTROL WHEN THEY PRODUCE IT,
THE PRICE AT WHICH
THEY PRODUCE IT,
AND HAVE THE CERTAINTY
OF THAT SUPPLY.
I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO
GIVE IT AWAY, THOUGH.
FOR PRIVATE USERS TO
SECURE IT FOR THEMSELVES.

Hugh says I THINK WHEN THE
PEOPLE OF ONTARIO THINK
ABOUT SECURITY ISSUES, I
THINK THEY WOULD FEEL
MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE,
FOR EXAMPLE,
WITH A UTILITY'S
DECISION MAKING
ABOUT WHETHER TO KEEP
PUSHING A NUCLEAR PLANT
WHEN THEY KNOW THAT THERE'S
WEAKNESSES IN TUBING,
FOR EXAMPLE, AS ONTARIO
HAS EXPERIENCED
OVER THE YEARS A
NUMBER OF TIMES.
I THINK PEOPLE FEEL MUCH MORE
COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA
THAT THOSE DECISIONS
ARE MADE BY A PUBLIC
CORPORATION INSTEAD OF
A PRIVATE PROFIT MAKING
CORPORATION THAT'S GOING
TO BE ENORMOUS PRESSURE
TO KEEP GOING.

Steve says THAT RAISES AN ISSUE OF
WHETHER THEY OUGHT TO.

Bill says COULD
I SPEAK TO THAT?

Steve says SHOOT.

Bill says AS TO, I THINK PEOPLE
DO FEEL THAT WAY.
I AGREE WITH YOU.
I DON'T THINK PEOPLE
SHOULD FEEL THAT WAY.
AFTER ALL, IF A PRIVATE
ORGANIZATION HAS INVESTED
A LOT OF MONEY TO BUY A
NUCLEAR PLANT AND THEY'VE
GOT THE SAME REGULATOR THAT
THE PUBLIC INSTITUTION HAD,
DO YOU THINK THEY'RE
GOING TO HAVE -
LET THE REGULATOR
CLOSE THEM DOWN?

Hugh says IF YOUR ONLY ASSET - IF
YOU'RE RUNNING A NUCLEAR
POWER PLANT AND YOUR ONLY
ASSET IS 3.2 MEGAWATTS
OF POWER IN BRUCE, AND YOU
RUN INTO A FUNDAMENTAL
PROBLEM WITH THE METALLURGY
OF THE TUBING THERE,
I THINK THERE'S GOING
TO BE A LOT OF PRESSURE
INTERNALLY WITHIN THAT
CORPORATION WITH THAT MUCH
MONEY TIED UP IN IT TO
KEEP GOING COME HELL
OR HIGH WATER, NO
PUN INTENDED.

Bill says AND HAVE
THE REGULATOR CLOSE YOU UP?

Patrick says OR NOT TELL
THE REGULATOR
OR HIDE IT FROM
THE REGULATOR.

Steve says WHAT ABOUT THE RISK?
WHAT ABOUT THE
LOOPHOLE IN INSURANCE?
'CAUSE RIGHT NOW I THINK
THERE'S - YOU CAN'T GET
INSURANCE TO COVER
A CATASTROPHE
IN THIS PROVINCE.
YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT.
THE PUBLIC'S ON
THE HOOK FOR IT.
AND A PRIVATE SECTOR
COMPANY COULD NOT PURCHASE
INSURANCE AS WELL TO COVER
A CATASTROPHE, RIGHT?

Bill says TRUE.

Steve says THAT'S NOT GOING
TO CHANGE, RIGHT?
SO IF WE SELL AND THE
PRIVATE SECTOR TAKES OVER,
THE PUBLIC SECTOR, US,
WE'RE STILL ON THE HOOK
FOR THOSE KINDS OF INSURANCE
PROBLEMS, AREN'T WE?
WE WILL BE, WON'T WE?

Bill says I DON'T KNOW.
I NEVER THOUGHT
OF THAT.

Jane says WELL, BUT PUT IT THIS WAY,
IF A PRIVATE SECTOR PERSON
TAKES OVER AND THEY
CANNOT GET INSURANCE,
THEN PRESUMABLY THEY'RE
GOING TO TAKE EVEN MORE CARE
THAN SOMEONE WHO CAN'T
BECAUSE IT'S THEIR ASSETS.

Steve says THEY DON'T
NEED INSURANCE.
THERE'S A LAW THAT SAYS,
WE ARE NOT GOING
TO BE COVERED IN THE
EVENT OF A CATASTROPHE.

Bill says THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
COMES IN FOR SOME
AMOUNT OF INSURANCE.
THAT WOULD BE SAME WHETHER
IT WAS PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.
SO IF WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM,
IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE
WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM WHETHER
IT'S PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.
YOU'RE SAYING THE SAME
PERSON PICKS UP THE BILL.

Steve says MM-HMM.

Jane says WELL, AND WHAT
I'M SAYING IS,
I DON'T THINK THAT IN MANY
CIRCUMSTANCES THEY'D
WANT TO PUT THEIR OWN
PRIVATE ASSETS AT RISK.
THEIR OWN PRIVATE, IF IT'S
A PRIVATE OWNER FOR -
A CORPORATE OWNER
FOR EXAMPLE,
THEIR OWN PRIVATE
REPUTATION.

Hugh says MAYBE THEY
WON'T HAVE TO.
MAYBE WE'LL
GIVE IT AWAY.

Steve says WITH JUST A FEW
MINUTES LEFT HERE,
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS
RELATIONSHIP YOU HAVE
WITH MIKE HARRIS
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
I HEAR A LOT OF STUFF
ABOUT YOU BEING, YOU KNOW,
MISTER CONFIDANT
FOR MISTER HARRIS.
WHERE'D YOU
MEET HIM?
HOW'D YOU GET TO BE SUCH
GOOD BUDDIES WITH HIM?

Bill says I MET HIM A YEAR
OR SO BEFORE HE
WENT FOR THE
LEADERSHIP.

Steve says SO '89
WE'RE TALKING.

Bill continues AND WHEN HE WENT FOR THE
LEADERSHIP - UNDER SOCIAL
CIRCUMSTANCES, WHEN HE
WENT FOR THE LEADERSHIP,
HE ASKED ME IF I
WOULD HELP HIM.
SO I HELPED HIM RAISE SOME
MONEY FOR THE LEADERSHIP.

Steve says HOW MUCH?

Bill says SO THAT'S HOW
I GOT INVOLVED.

Steve says HOW MUCH DID YOU
HELP HIM RAISE?

[laughter]

Bill says WE RAISED ABOUT
I THINK 100,000 DOLLARS
FOR THE LEADERSHIP.

Steve says AND WHAT KIND OF ADVICE
HAVE YOU BEEN PROVIDING HIM
ALONG THE WAY SO FAR?

Bill says I'VE BEEN A FUNDRAISER AND
A CONFIDANT IN TERMS OF
THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY.
I'VE INTRODUCED HIM TO
PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS
COMMUNITY AND I'M NOT -

Patrick says I UNDERSTAND IT'S VERY
DIFFICULT FOR THE BUSINESS
COMMUNITY TO GET
TO SEE MISTER HARRIS.
I MET VERY SENIOR BUSINESS
PRESIDENT OF A BIG BUSINESS
ORGANIZATION THAT
SAID HE'D BEEN TRYING
TO GET INTO SEE HIM FOR
TWO MONTHS AND COULDN'T.
NO, IT WAS INTERESTING
BECAUSE HE SAID, YOU KNOW,
I USED TO BE ABLE TO PHONE
THE PREMIER ANY TIME.
HE USED TO SEE
BOB RAE ANY TIME.
I CAN'T GET TO
SEE MIKE HARRIS.
COULD I HAVE YOUR
CARD BECAUSE THIS IS,
YOU KNOW, AN
IMPORTANT GUY.

Bill laughs.

Patrick continues I THINK HE CONSULTS YOUR
FRIENDS BUT HE DOESN'T
CONSULT PEOPLE WHO ARE
CHAIRMAN OF BUSINESS
ORGANIZATIONS.
THAT'S THE
IMPRESSION I GET.

Bill says NOT MY IMPRESSION.

Patrick says
NOT YOUR IMPRESSION.

Steve says AGAIN, FORGIVE MY CURIOSITY
HERE BUT ARE YOU
ON THE PHONE TO HIM LIKE
EVERY OTHER DAY OR EVERY
FEW DAYS, AND WHAT KIND OF
ADVICE WOULD HE ASK YOU FOR?
I THINK PEOPLE ARE JUST
SORT OF CURIOUS ABOUT
WHAT THE
RELATIONSHIP'S LIKE.

Bill says WE'RE PERSONAL
FRIENDS AND WE TALK.
NOT EVERY COUPLE
OF DAYS.

Steve says AND WHAT KIND
OF ISSUES WOULD HE
WANT YOUR ADVICE ON?
SORRY, PATRICK, DO YOU MIND
IF I'M GOING FOR THIS.

Hugh says ASK HIM ABOUT
THE RED PHONE.

Patrick says DO THEY BOTH DRINK
THE SAME KIND OF SCOTCH?

Steve says FORGIVE ME, I KNOW WHO TOM
LONG IS AND I KNOW WHO
LESLIE NOBLE IS, AND I
KNOW ALL THOSE OTHER
ADVISERS AND FRIENDS.

Patrick says UNMASKING THE
SECRET ADVISERS.

Steve says I JUST WANT TO KNOW
WHO BILL FARLINGER IS,
THAT'S ALL.

Smiling, Bill says WELL I GUESS I'M MORE
OF A BUSINESS ADVISER
THAN A POLITICAL
ADVISER.
I'VE NO HISTORY OF BEING
INVOLVED IN POLITICS,
SO THE PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED
ARE THE REAL POLITICAL ADVISERS.

Steve says AND YOUR ADVICE ON THE TAX
CUT NEXT SPRING'S BUDGET IS?

Bill says WE SHOULD HAVE
THE TAX CUT.

Steve says DO IT.

Steve says OKAY.
GOOD LUCK WITH HYDRO,
YOU'LL NEEDED IT.

Bill says THANKS VERY MUCH.

Steve says OKAY, THAT'S
BILL FARLINGER.
THIS OF COURSE HAS BEEN A
SIGNIFICANT WEEK AROUND
QUEEN'S PARK IN AS MUCH
AS BOB RAE STEPPED DOWN,
AND WE HAD THE PREMIER -
THE FORMER PREMIER, RATHER,
ON THE PROGRAM A COUPLE
OF DAYS AFTER HIS NEWS
CONFERENCE ANNOUNCING HIS
RETIREMENT FROM PUBLIC LIFE,
AND I SPOKE WITH HIM
ON THE PROGRAM AND ASKED
HIM WHY HE'S LEAVING
NOW END WHAT HE THINKS
OF THOSE WHO SAY THAT THE
NDP NEEDS TO MOVE FARTHER
TO THE LEFT NOW THAT
HE'S GETTING OUT.

A clip plays.

The caption changes to "January 15, 1996."

Bob Rae is in his late forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing glasses, a dark green suit, blue shirt, colourful floral tie and a white brooch.

Bob says I THINK IT'S MUCH BETTER TO
GO WHEN PEOPLE WANT YOU
TO STAY THAN TO STAY WHEN
EVERYBODY WANTS YOU TO GO.

Steve laughs.

Bob continues DIEFENBAKER,
I'M NOT.
THIS ISN'T A
LIFE PROFESSION.
I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT -
PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND -
I HOPE THE PUBLIC
UNDERSTANDS.
I HAVE TO THINK
ABOUT MY FAMILY.
I HAVE THREE DAUGHTERS
WHO ARE TEENAGERS,
TWO OF THEM.
ONE IS 11.
SHE'S GOING TO
BE A TEENAGER.
THESE ARE VERY CRITICAL
YEARS IN THE LIFE OF
THE GIRLS AND ARLENE
AND IF I DON'T FOCUS
ON THE FAMILY AND FOCUS ON WHAT
I WANT TO DO WITH MY PRIVATE
LIFE NOW, YOU KNOW, THEY'LL
BE GONE TO UNIVERSITY.
THEY'LL BE OFF AND
AWAY AND THAT'LL BE IT.
I DISAGREE AS PROFOUNDLY
AS ANYTHING WITH PEOPLE
WHO THINK THAT IT'S
IMMORAL TO SEEK POLITICAL
RESPONSIBILITY.
I THINK THE HIGHER
IMMORALITY AND THE HIGHER
IRRESPONSIBILITY IS TO SAY,
WE'RE GOING TO STAY HERE
PURE ON THE MARGINS OF
POLITICS AND LET THE RIGHT
WING JERKS CONTROL THINGS
FOR THE NEXT 50 YEARS.
I THINK THAT'S THE WORST
THING YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO.
AND THE OTHER THEORY WHICH
I'VE HEARD EXPRESSED,
EVEN THE LAST
COUPLE OF DAYS,
THAT SOMEHOW THE ANSWER FOR
THE PARTY IS TO BECOME
ONCE MORE SOME GOLDEN AGE,
A RADICAL SOCIALIST PARTY,
AS IF IN KNOCKING ON
DOORS WHAT WE FIND IS
WHAT PEOPLE REALLY CRAVE
IN ONTARIO IS A PARTY
THAT'S MORE LEFT
WING THAN THE NDP.
EXCUSE ME?

The clip ends.

[chuckling]

Smiling, Steve says LET'S CONTINUE OUR
DISCUSSION OF BOB RAE'S
CAREER AND PUBLIC LIFE WITH
JANE PEPINO AND PATRICK GOSSAGE
AND HUGH MACKENZIE,
AND I'M GOING TO STAY
WITH HUGH BECAUSE YOU WERE
AN ADVISER TO MISTER RAE
WHEN HE WAS THE PREMIER
OF THE PROVINCE.

Hugh says WELL, ACTUALLY
IT WAS BEFORE THAT.

Steve says BEFORE THAT?

Hugh says YES, BEFORE THAT.

Steve says HE NEVER PICKED UP TO
PHONE TO YOU AFTER THAT?

Patrick says ACTUALLY HUGH WAS
A CONFIDANT.
A TRUSTED CONFIDANT.

Steve says I'M SPANKING
YOU LATER, RIGHT?
[laughing]

Steve says YOU, I WILL DEAL
WITH LATER.

Patrick says OKAY, TRUSTED
CONFIDANT, LET'S HEAR IT.

Pointing to Patrick, Hugh says HE'S CONDUCTING
A FILIBUSTER.

Steve says MY LAST QUESTION TO RAE
IN THAT INTERVIEW WAS,
YOU SPENT A YEAR OF YOUR
LIFE ON CHARLOTTETOWN,
IT FAILED.
ALL OF YOUR LEGISLATIVE
ACHIEVEMENTS,
AS YOU WOULD SEE THEM,
HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED
BY THIS GOVERNMENT.
YES, THERE IS A CASINO IN
WINDSOR, BUT BESIDES THAT,
HOW WILL WE KNOW BOB
RAE WAS EVER PREMIER?
TO WHICH YOU WOULD
ANSWER, WHAT?

Hugh says WELL, I THINK THAT HISTORY
LOOKING BACK ON IT IS GOING
TO BE MUCH KINDER TO BOB
THAN THE NEWS WAS AT THE TIME,
NOT TO SAY THAT
NEWS MEDIA WERE UNKIND
AT THE TIME, BUT I THINK THAT
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LOOK BACK
AT IT AND SAY THAT,
PARTICULARLY
WITH THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT'S
PERFORMANCE AS A MIRROR
TO LOOK AT IT IN, AND SAY THAT
THESE GUYS TRIED VERY HARD
TO DEAL WITH VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT TIMES IN
A WAY THAT WAS FAIR
AND COMPASSIONATE.
THEY MADE MISTAKES,
YES, THEY DID.
BUT COMPARED WITH WHAT'S
COMING AFTERWARDS,
IT LOOKS LIKE A PARADISE.

Steve says IS THAT - DOES
HE HAVE A POINT?
HE RULED DURING VERY
DIFFICULT TIMES
AND TRIED TO DO IT
WITH COMPASSION.

Jane says YES.

Steve says DO YOU GET MARKS
FOR THAT ANYMORE?

Jane says NO.
I DON'T THINK SO, NOT
WITH THE LEGACY
THAT WE'VE BEEN LEFT.
I MEAN, BOB RAE'S AN
HONOURABLE PERSON
IN MY JUDGMENT AND I HAVE
THE GREATEST OF RESPECT
FOR HIM, BUT HE LEFT US SO
MUCH WORSE OFF THAT
IT WASN'T COMPASSIONATE
WHAT HE ENDED UP DOING.
THE DEBT, THE DEFICIT ARE
A LEGACY THAT IT WILL TAKE
GENERATIONS TO DEAL WITH,
AND IT'S THAT THAT'S
DRIVING ANY HARDSHIP AS
MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE.
I MEAN, ANY AMOUNT OF
COMPASSION IS NOT GOING
TO PUT BREAD ON THE TABLE
IF THERE'S NO MONEY
TO PURCHASE IT OR
MANUFACTURE IT IN OTHER -
OR GET IT OUT THERE.
AND THE COMPASSION ENDED
UP BEING SO MISPLACED,
AND AT THE END OF
THE DAY, AS WELL,
WHAT I THINK WILL COME
FROM THAT AND THE LEGACY
WILL BE, IS THAT
PEOPLE SAID, WELL,
WE TRIED THAT AND IT JUST
CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK.
BECAUSE THE FACT IS,
BOB RAE STARTED OFF
ON AN IDEOLOGY AND A
POLICY OF THE LEFT,
TRIED TO MOVE WITHIN THE
CONSTRAINTS OF HIS PARTY
AND THE IDEOLOGY
AND THE PHILOSOPHY,
INTO A LITTLE BIT MORE
TO THE CENTRE TO DEAL
WITH THE CHALLENGES THAT
LIFE HAD DEALT HIM,
AND THEY COULDN'T
MANAGE IT.
THEY JUST COULDN'T
MAKE IT FLY.

Hugh says AT THE END OF THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT'S TERM
BECAUSE I THINK - I MEAN,
ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES
WITH INTERPRETING HISTORY
WHEN THE HISTORICAL EPIC
IS ONLY SIX MONTHS OR EIGHT
MONTHS AWAY IS THAT THINGS
GET FUZZED UP BY
WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT
IN THE IMMEDIATE TERM.
I THINK IT WOULD BE
INTERESTING TO LOOK
AT THE RECORD OF THE
HARRIS GOVERNMENT,
COMPARED WITH THE RECORD
OF THE RAE GOVERNMENT,
FIVE YEARS FROM NOW.

Steve says THAT WAS THE
ANSWER, INCIDENTALLY,
THAT MISTER RAE GAVE WHEN
ASKED WHAT LASTS.
AND HE SAYS, COMPASSION,
NOT STEREOTYPING PEOPLE,
TRYING TO BE GOOD.
DOES HE GET MARKS
FOR THAT WITH YOU?

Patrick says WELL, YEAH, I THINK
HE DOES GET MARKS,
BUT I THINK REALLY ONE
OF THE POINTS IS THAT
EVERY POLITICIAN IS VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR,
QUOTES,
He air quotes and continues PLACE
IN HISTORY.
I'M AFRAID THAT I
DON'T AGREE WITH YOU.
I THINK HIS PLACE IN
HISTORY IS NOT ASSURED
EXCEPT AS ONE OF THE
PROBABLY THE BEST MEDIA -
YOU KNOW, THE BEST MEDIA
LINE-GIVERS THAT CANADA
HAS EVER SEEN, AND PROBABLY
ONE OF THE BETTER SPEAKERS,
TOO, ONE OF THE BETTER
PLATFORM SPEAKERS.

Steve says JIM LAXER SAID HE WOULD HAVE
BEEN GREAT PREMIER IN 1975.
NO, WHEN THE DOUGH
WAS COMING IN,
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

Patrick says THE FACT IS THAT
WHEN POLITICIANS,
IF THEY AREN'T ASSURED
OF THEIR PLACE
IN HISTORY AND THEY'VE
GONE TO THE OPPOSITION,
ARE SOMETIMES DRAWN
TO RUN AGAIN
TO SET THINGS RIGHT, AND I
THINK BOB RAE REALIZES
THAT LIKE HE CAN'T
RECUPERATE IT.
IT'S GONE.
IT'S PASSED HIM BY.
HE'S LOST HIS CHANCE.

Hugh says I THINK
YOU'RE WRONG.
I THINK BOB'S A REAL -
BOB'S A POLITICAL ANIMAL.

Patrick says HE'S SUCH
A PRAGMATIST.

Hugh continues BECAUSE HE KNOWS WHAT
PEOPLE ARE SAYING.
NOTICE THAT HE HASN'T SAID
I'M OUT OF POLITICS FOREVER.

Steve says QUITE THE
CONTRARY.
HE SAID THIS IS NOT MY
LAST PRESS CONFERENCE
AND YOU MAY HAVE ME TO
KICK AROUND AGAIN.

Hugh says EXACTLY.
I THINK AND THAT'S WHY I
THINK IT'S A LITTLE RISKY
TO BE SORT OF WRITING THE
POLITICAL EPITAPH RIGHT NOW.

Patrick says WELL, THEN, I THINK THAT'S
INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK
HE REALLY DOES HAVE TO
RECUPERATE WHAT WAS
A REALLY STERLING
REPUTATION AS A LEADER
OF THE OPPOSITION BEFORE
HE BECAME PREMIER.
HE WAS REALLY ONE OF
THE BETTER POLITICIANS
IN CANADA BEYOND A
SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

Steve says HE TRIED TO DO A BIT OF
LIKE A TONY BLAIR WITH
THE LABOUR PARTY IN BRITAIN,
SORT OF DRAG IT FROM
ITS IDEOLOGY SORT OF MORE
INTO A CENTRIST THING.
I MEAN, LET'S HUMOUR ME
WITH THAT ANALOGY FOR NOW.

Hugh says ALL RIGHT, OKAY.

Steve says THE DEBATE I GUESS
IN THE NDP -
WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF
MINUTES - THE DEBATE NOW IS,
DO WE GO BACK TO OUR
ROOTS, BACK ON THE LEFT,
BACK TOWARDS MORE
OF WHERE WE WERE,
SOCIAL CONSCIENCE OF
PARLIAMENT, IF YOU LIKE,
OR DO WE TRY TO BE A
PARTY THAT IS READY
TO GOVERN NEXT
TIME AROUND?
WHERE ARE YOU
ON THAT?

Looking at Hugh, Patrick says I'D LIKE TO HEAR
FROM YOU ON THAT ONE.

Hugh says I THINK THAT'S A PRETTY
EMPTY DEBATE, FRANKLY.

Steve says WELL, YOUR PARTY'S
HAVING IT, FORGIVE ME.

Hugh says WELL, IS THE
PARTY HAVING IT?
I'M NOT SURE IT IS.
I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE
IN THE PARTY THINK THAT
IF YOU WORK TO ELECT
PEOPLE TO A LEGISLATURE,
THAT THE REASON WHY YOU'RE
DOING THAT IS THAT AT SOME
POINT YOU'D LIKE TO BE IN A
POSITION OF BEING TRUSTED
TO MAKE THE DECISIONS, AND
I THINK THAT'S WHAT MOST
PEOPLE WHO VOTE FOR THE
PARTY VOTE FOR IT FOR,
AND THAT'S WHAT MOST
PEOPLE WHO WORK
FOR THE PARTY
WORK FOR IT FOR.
YES, THERE WILL BE DEBATE,
BUT I WOULD PREDICT THAT
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SEE
THESE HUGE DICHOTOMIES
BEING EXPRESSED
ACROSS THE FLOOR
OR ACROSS PUBLIC MEDIA -

Patrick says I THINK YOU HAVE TO
LOOK AT WHAT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN PREDICTABLY
IN TWO OR THREE YEARS.
I MEAN, THERE'S GOING TO
BE A MUCH LARGER SPLIT
BETWEEN THE RICH
AND THE POOR.
THERE'S GOING TO
BE LOT OF MISERY.
MAYBE WE'LL START
TO COME OUT OF IT.
I'M SURE YOU
BELIEVE WE ARE,
FRANKLY, THIS COULD BE A
VERY UNHAPPY PROVINCE,
A LOT OF
HOPELESSNESS.
NOW, WHO IS GOING TO ANSWER

WHO'S GOING TO PROVIDE HOPE?
WHO'S GOING TO
PROVIDE SENSIBLE,
CONCRETE HOPE TO AN AWFUL
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING
TO HAVE FALLEN OFF THE
EDGE IN THE NEXT ROUND,
AND IS IT GOING
TO BE NDP?
I THINK THEY'RE GOING
TO HAVE TO GO LEFT.
I REALLY DO.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE
NOTION OF A LIBERAL-NDP MERGER?
SO YOU GET ONE CENTRED
LEFT PARTY AGAINST
ONE CENTRED RIGHT PARTY.

Patrick says NO WAY.
NO WAY.

Steve says NO WAY?
WHY NOT?

Patrick says NO WAY BECAUSE WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE A NEW LEADER.
NO NEW LEADER'S EVER
GOING TO BROOK SHARING
THIS HARD-WON LEADERSHIP.
CAN YOU SEE SEAN CONWAY
EMBRACING DIPPERS AND
SAYING, HEY, THE ONLY WAY
WE'RE GOING TO WIN GUYS
IS BY GETTING IN
BED TOGETHER?

Steve says WELL, HE DID IN
1985, DIDN'T HE?

Patrick says YEAH, BUT THAT
WAS AFTER THE ELECTION.
YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT
BEFORE AN ELECTION.

Steve says YEAH.
YEAH.

Patrick says NEVER.
DREAM ON, STEVE.

Steve says I'M NOT DREAMING.

Patrick says LET'S ASK AN NDP
CONFIDANT WHAT HE THINKS.

Patrick laughs.

Hugh says I'M JUST
SPECULATING.

Steve says LAST ISSUE.
WHEN MIKE HARRIS WAS ASKED
WHAT WAS BOB RAE'S LEGACY
TO ONTARIO, HE SAID
ONE WORD, DEFICITS.
WAS THAT UNCHARITABLE?

Hugh says THAT'S WAS A COMPLETELY
CLASSLESS COMMENT.
IT JUST HAD NO CLASS.

Jane says I DON'T AGREE.
I MEAN, THAT IS THE EPITAPH
I THINK AND ALL THE KIND
THINGS THAT WE CAN ALL
SAY ABOUT HIM AND
ALL THE ADMIRING THINGS
WE CAN SAY ABOUT HIM,
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
HISTORY WROTE OVER THOSE
FIVE YEARS THIS PROVINCE
WENT FROM BEING PRETTY
MUCH IN THE LEAD IN MANY
WAYS TO BEING WAY BEHIND
THE EIGHT BALL IN SO MANY
WAYS, AND IT HAD TO DO,
NOT WITH WHAT WENT ON IN
THE LAST THREE YEARS,
BUT WHAT WENT ON
IN THE FIRST TWO,
AND THEY NEVER GOT THAT
GENIE BACK IN THE BOTTLE
AND WE ARE GOING TO BEAR IT
FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.

Steve says ON THAT HOPEFUL
NOTE, WE HAVE TO GO.

Patrick says I THINK HE TRIED TO
BALANCE COMPASSION
IN A RECESSION, HE TRIED
TO INJECT COMPASSION
IN A RECESSION;
IMPOSSIBLE.

Steve says PATRICK GOSSAGE, JANE
PEPINO, HUGH MACKENZIE,
THANK YOU AND WE'LL
DO IT AGAIN NEXT TIME.
WELL, WE ARE ALWAYS EAGER
TO HEAR YOUR COMMENTS ON
THE PROGRAM SO PICK UP
A PEN AND WRITE TO US:

A slate reads "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario, M4T 2T1."

Steve continues OR TYPE AWAY IN
CYBERSPACE.
THERE'S THE
INTERNET ADDRESS:

The slate changes to "Internet address studio2@tvo.org."

Steve concludes I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
WE'LL SEE YOU
NEXT TIME.
Music plays and the end credits roll.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1996, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #50