Transcript: Show #46 | Dec 03, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background.
Then, snippets from the current episode play.

Steve says THIS WEEK, BROADSIDE!

In a clip, Ernie Eves says NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT
WE HAVE VARIEGATED
FROM OUR HEALTHCARE
COMMITMENT.

In another clip, a woman in her fifties says MIKE HARRIS LIED
TO ONTARIANS
WHEN HE ASKED
FOR THEIR VOTE.
HE LIED TO ONTARIANS
WHEN HE SAID
THAT HE WOULD
PROTECT HEALTHCARE.

A man in his late fifties says IT IS AN ASSAULT
ON THE HEALTHCARE
OF THIS PROVINCE SUCH
AS WE HAVE NEVER SEEN.

Now a clip shows a female physician pressing a stethoscope onto a child's back.

Steve says THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION
HITS THE COMMON FOLK.

(music plays)

Steve and three guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a green coat over a burgundy polo shirt.

He says WELL THE TORIES PROMISED WE
WOULDN'T RECOGNIZE ONTARIO
AFTER THEY WERE
FINISHED IMPLEMENTING
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
AND BY ANY MEASURE,
THEY ARE WELL ON THEIR
WAY TO DOING JUST THAT.
WELCOME BACK TO
ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4TH READING,
EVERYONE.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
NATURALLY THE LIGHT THAT
THE GOVERNMENT SEES
AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL
IS A MORE PROSPEROUS
ONTARIO WITH MORE
JOBS AND NO DEFICIT.
THE TORIES' OPPONENTS
SEE THAT SAME LIGHT,
IT'S JUST THAT THEY THINK
IT'S AN ONCOMING TRAIN
WHICH WILL CRUSH
ANYTHING IN ITS WAY.
IN A MOMENT WE'LL ANALYZE
THE POLITICS BEHIND THE CUTS,
BUT FIRST LET'S HEAR
FROM THE MAN WHO SLASHED
SPENDING MORE THAN ANYONE
ELSE IN ONTARIO HISTORY.

A clip plays in which Ernie Eves speaks at the Ontario Legislature.
A caption reads "Ernie Eves. Minister of Finance."

Eves is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with side-parted gray hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and polka-dotted burgundy tie.

He says THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
HAVE ASKED US TO TAKE ON
AN IMPORTANT JOB, RESTORING
CONFIDENCE IN THIS PROVINCE
AS A PLACE TO LIVE, TO
WORK, AND TO DO BUSINESS.
THE PLAN I AM INTRODUCING
TODAY IS AN ESSENTIAL PART
OF OUR PROGRAM
TO RENEW ONTARIO.

Now a clip shows Bob Rae giving a press conference.
A caption reads "Bob Rae. NDP Leader."

Rae is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

He says THIS IS AN IDEOLOGICAL
GOVERNMENT THAT
IS BENT ON WHAT THEY
CALL A REVOLUTION.
IT IS A REVOLUTION THAT
WILL COST US OUR HEALTH,
COST US OUR JOBS, AND COST
US OUR SENSE OF COMMUNITY.

Now a clip shows Lyn McLeod speaking.
A caption reads "Lyn McLeod. Liberal Leader."

McLeod is in her fifties, with wavy gray hair. She's wearing a black blazer.

She says I SEE THIS AS
BEING A BRUTAL
AND A DESTRUCTIVE
DOCUMENT.
IT TAKES A GIANT STEP ALONG
A ROAD THAT WILL DESTROY
THE VALUES AND FABRIC
OF ONTARIO SOCIETY
AND KILL TENS OF
THOUSANDS OF JOBS.

At the legislature, Eves says
OVER THE COMING YEAR, THE
MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND
TRAINING WILL WORK WITH
THE EDUCATION COMMUNITY
TO MAKE THE SCHOOL
SYSTEM MORE EFFECTIVE,
MORE EQUITABLE,
MORE ACCOUNTABLE,
AND LESS EXPENSIVE.

McLeod says THERE IS PAIN HERE FOR
UNIVERSITY STUDENTS
AND THEIR PARENTS WHO
WILL NOW BE FORCED TO PAY
HIKES OF AT LEAST 400 dollars
FOR TUITION NEXT YEAR.

Rae says THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO
WAY THAT A CUT OF 10 PERCENT
TO EDUCATION CAN BE CARRIED
OUT WITHOUT A SUBSTANTIAL
IMPACT ON EDUCATION
IN THE CLASSROOM.
MIKE HARRIS KNOWS IT.
EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

Eves says THE GOVERNMENT BELIEVES
THAT BY USING THE TOOLS
AND FLEXIBILITY ASKED FOR,
MUNICIPALITIES CAN ADJUST
TO THESE REDUCTIONS BY
RESTRUCTURING THEIR
OPERATIONS WITHOUT
INCREASING LOCAL TAXES.

McLeod says THERE WILL BE PAIN FOR ALL
ONTARIANS WHO WILL NOW
HAVE TO PAY EITHER HIGHER
MUNICIPAL TAXES OR SEE
FEWER BUSES AND POLICE
ON THEIR STREETS,
FEWER OR MORE POORLY
MAINTAINED OLD-AGE HOMES
AND CHILDCARE CENTRES
IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

Eves says OUR GOVERNMENT REMAINS
COMMITTED TO PROTECTING
OUR HEALTHCARE BUDGET.
THIS IS NOT A COMMITMENT TO
MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO.
WE NEED TO FIND
SAVINGS IN SOME AREAS
IN ORDER TO MEET
NEEDS IN OTHER AREAS.

McLeod says THIS IS AN AGENDA OF PAIN,
BUT IT ALSO AN AGENDA
OF DUPLICITY AND
BETRAYAL.
WHEN MIKE HARRIS ASKED
ONTARIANS FOR THEIR VOTES,
HE PROMISED TO CUT NOT
ONE CENT FROM HEALTHCARE.

She turns to a nearby TV screen that shows a video of Mike Harris giving a campaign speech.

In the video, Harris says
WE SAY VERY CLEARLY,
HEALTHCARE IS A PRIORITY.
NOT ONE CENT WILL CUT
FROM HEALTHCARE SPENDING.
NOT ONE CENT
FROM HEALTHCARE.

Rae says SO THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
HAVE TO ASK THEMSELVES,
IS IT WORTH THE
CUT IN SERVICES,
THE CUT IN HEALTHCARE,
THE CUT IN EDUCATION,
TO GIVE THE BEST-OFF
CITIZENS OF THIS PROVINCE
A 7 BILLION dollar TAX
CUT BY 1999?
I DON'T THINK IT IS.

The clips end.

Back in the studio, Steve says
LET'S OPEN UP THE FACT FILE
AND REFRESH OUR MEMORIES
JUST ABOUT WHAT IS
IN THIS MINI BUDGET.
BRIEFLY WE'RE
GOING TO DO IT.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "The cuts."

Steve reads the information on the slate and says
THE CUTS, IT'S GOING TO
MORE THAN 6 BILLION dollars
BY THE TIME IT'S
ALL SAID AND DONE.
HARDEST HIT, HOSPITALS TO
THE TUNE OF A 1.3 BILLION dollars.
MUNICIPALITIES 658 MILLION dollars
OVER TWO YEARS.
EDUCATION 800 MILLION dollars.
FLIP IT AROUND, ALAN, LET'S
ALSO CHECK THE FINANCE
MINISTER'S PROJECTIONS
FOR '95-96.

The slate changes.

Steve continues SPENDING TO TOTAL
55.8 BILLION dollars.
THE DEFICIT FOR THE FISCAL
YEAR WE'RE IN ENDING
AT THE END OF NEXT
MARCH 9.3 BILLION dollars.
THE DEBT, UP TO 97.2 BILLION dollars
IN THE PROVINCE NOW.
GDP IS UP 2.1 PERCENT.
THAT'S WHAT THE
FORECASTS ARE
AND EMPLOYMENT, FORECASTING
UP 1.4 PERCENT.

In animation, the slate shuts closed as if it were a metal vault.

Steve continues CLOSE UP THE FACT
FILE AND HERE WE GO.
SPEAKING OF ERNIE EVES,
THE FINANCE MINISTER,
HE SAYS HIS BUDGET IS
SIMPLY DELIVERING
WHAT HIS GOVERNMENT
PROMISED VOTERS
IN THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION,
AND WE SPOKE EARLIER
AT HIS OFFICE AT
QUEEN'S PARK.

In a clip, Steve interviews Eves in a meeting room.

Steve says UNDER THIS PLAN,
HERE'S THE PAGE
FROM THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION.
UNDER THIS PLAN, THERE
WILL BE NO NEW USER FEES.
IT SEEMS FAIRLY STRAIGHT
AND CATEGORICAL.
NOW, HOW DOES THAT SQUARE
WITH THE 2 dollar CO-PAYMENT,
USER FEE, CALL
IT WHAT YOU WANT,
FOR PRESCRIPTION DRUGS, FOR
PEOPLE ON THE DRUG BENEFIT
PLAN, AND THE
100 dollar DEDUCTIBLE,
AND THE PHARMACY
DISPENSING FEES
THAT PEOPLE NOW
HAVE TO PAY?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Ernie Eves. Minister of Finance."

Eves says WHEN PEOPLE SAY
USER FEES TO ME,
AT LEAST IN MY AREA OF
THE PROVINCE WHICH
I'VE REPRESENTED FOR A
FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME NOW.

Steve says TEN YEARS.
WHEN THEY SAY - NO, 14.
IT'LL BE 15 YEARS
IN MARCH, ACTUALLY.

Steve says FORGIVE ME, I DIDN'T
MEAN TO SHORTCHANGE YOU.

Eves laughs and says NOT THAT I REMEMBER.
WHEN THEY SAY USER FEES
TO ME, IT CONNOTATES
WHEN YOU GO IN TO A
PHYSICIAN YOU WILL
HAVE TO PAY A USER FEE
EVERY TIME YOU GO TO
SEE A DOCTOR, EVERY TIME
YOU VISIT THE HOSPITAL.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE...
THAT THE CONNOTATION
THEY HAVE THEIR MIND
ABOUT USER FEES.

Steve says SO THIS IS NOT
A USER FEE THEN?

Eves says WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT
THIS QUITE SERIOUSLY
IS A CO-PAYMENT FEE FOR
THE DRUG BENEFIT PLAN.
WE ARE THE ONLY PROVINCE IN
CANADA THAT DOES NOT HAVE
A CO-PAYMENT FEE OF SOME SORT
FOR THEIR DRUG BENEFIT PLAN.

Steve says BUT I WANT YOU
TO LOOK AT ME...

Eves says I AM LOOKING AT
YOU, STEVE.

Steve says I WANT YOU TO LOOK ME
STRAIGHT IN THE FACE.

Eves says I AM LOOKING AT YOU
STRAIGHT IN THE FACE.

Steve says THAT A USE FEE AND CO-PAYMENT
FEE ISN'T THE SAME THING.

Eves says I'M TELLING YOU THAT'S NOT
WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER
TO BE A USER FEE.

Steve says A CO-PAYMENT AND A USER FEE
ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Eves says I'M SAYING THAT THE
CO-PAYMENT FEE ON THE
ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PLAN
IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE
THAT I KNOW OR MYSELF WOULD
CONSIDER TO BE A USER FEE
IN THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM,
AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S
A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM
PHYSICIANS AND I'VE HEARD
FROM MY LOCAL PHYSICIANS
IN SOME RESPECTS,
THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO
SEE USER FEES WITH RESPECT
TO EVERY TIME YOU GO
TO VISIT A DOCTOR.
YOU COUGH UP 5 BUCKS
OR 10 BUCKS,
OR EVERY TIME YOU GO THE
EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT,
YOU HAVE TO PAY 10 dollars.

Steve says AND YOU'RE NOT
FOR THAT?

Eves says THAT'S NOT WHAT
WE'RE DOING.
AND THAT'S NOT WHAT
I THINK PEOPLE...
I THINK THAT'S THE
CONNOTATION THEY HAVE
WHEN THEY TALK
ABOUT USER FEES.

Steve says I GUESS THERE ARE
JUST PERCENT SIMPLY STATED,
I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE
OUT THERE WHO JUST
WANT TO HEAR YOU
SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT,
THIS DRUG BENEFIT PLAN WAS
A GREAT IDEA IN ITS DAY
BUT IT'S OUT OF
CONTROL.
IT'S A BILLION
DOLLARS TODAY.
IT'S GOING TO BE A BILLION
AND A HALF NEXT YEAR,
AND TWO BILLION BY THE
TURN OF THE CENTURY,
OR WHATEVER.
WE DIDN'T WANT TO DO
IT BUT I GOTTA FIND
SOME SAVINGS AND
SO I'VE DONE IT.
I KNOW IT'S A USER
FEE BUT I GOTTA DO IT.
WHY CAN'T YOU
SAY THAT?

Eves says I THINK WE - I THINK - I
DIDN'T SAY THE LAST PART
OF YOUR STATEMENT AT THE PRESS
CONFERENCE, AS YOU KNOW,
BUT I THINK I DID ALLUDE TO
THE FACT THAT THE COST
OF THE DRUG BENEFIT PLAN
HAS TRIPLED FOR ONTARIO
TAXPAYERS IN THE LAST TEN
YEARS AND WE'RE NOW PAYING,
I BELIEVE IT'S 1.2 BILLION dollars ANNUALLY
OUT IN DRUG BENEFITS.
WE OBVIOUSLY HAD TO FIND
SOME SAVINGS THERE,
AND WE LOOKED AT ALL KINDS
OF MODELS IN CABINET
AND IN P and P COMMUNITY OF CABINET
AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT
A LOT OF THEM WERE A LOT MORE
RESTRICTIVE THAN THIS
MODEL WAS, WOULD HAVE
EFFECTED A LOT MORE SAVINGS,
BUT WE DIDN'T FEEL THAT
THAT WAS FAIR OR EQUITABLE.
WE WANTED TO COME UP WITH A
PLAN THAT WE THOUGHT
WOULD BE FAIR AND EQUITABLE
AND WE THOUGHT THAT
A 2 dollar CO-PAYMENT PER
PRESCRIPTION WAS APPROPRIATE,
AND THOSE ARE
FOR, OF COURSE,
PEOPLE THAT ARE
EARNING LESS THAN 16,000 dollars
IF THEY'RE SINGLE,
OR LESS THAN 24,000 dollars
FOR A COUPLE.
WITH RESPECT TO OTHER
PEOPLE USING THE ONTARIO
DRUG BENEFIT PLAN,
THEN THEY WOULD HAVE
A DEDUCTIBLE OF 100 dollars AND
THEY WOULD HAVE TO PAY
THE DISPENSING FEE;
AND IT'S INTERESTING.
WHEN I WAS BEING
INTERVIEWED ON ANOTHER
PROGRAM TODAY AT NOON,
THERE'S A PHONE-IN SHOW
FROM ALL OVER ONTARIO AND
ONE WOMAN PHONED IN AND
SAID THAT THE EXPERIENCE IN
OTHER PROVINCES HAD BEEN
THAT WHEN THEY WENT TO SOME
SORT OF A CO-PAYMENT PLAN
SUCH AS THIS, DISPENSING
FEES DROPPED DRAMATICALLY
FROM WHAT THEY
ARE IN ONTARIO.
AND ACTUALLY THAT THOUGHT
WENT THROUGH OUR MINDS
AND WAS BROUGHT OUT BY THE
MINISTRY OF HEALTH DURING
THESE DISCUSSIONS, AND
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT
HAS HAPPENED, BECAUSE THE
MARKETPLACE TAKES OVER
AND YOU FIND BIGGER CHAINS,
NOT TO MENTION ANY ONE NAME,
WHO ALL OF A SUDDEN WILL
COME OUT WITH A DISPENSING
FEE OF 1 dollar 99 OR 99 CENTS,
AND THEY'VE DONE THAT
IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS.
I THINK IT WILL
HAPPEN HERE, AS WELL.
RIGHT NOW THE DISPENSING
FEE'S AVERAGE IS ABOUT
6 dollars 11 IN ONTARIO.
THERE ARE SOME DOWN AS LOW
AS 1 dollar 99 AND THERE
ARE SOME AS HIGH AS I
HEARD TODAY OF 10 dollars 67.

Steve says YOU PROMISED IN THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION 725,000
JOBS AND YOUR DOCUMENT
THAT YOU RELEASED EARLIER
THIS WEEK SUGGESTS THAT IN
THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS
ABOUT 181,000 JOBS WILL BE
CREATED IN THE PROVINCE.
HOW DO YOU GET FROM
181 TO 725 IN JUST TWO
MORE YEARS AFTER THAT?

Eves says WELL, FIRST OF ALL, OUR
DOCUMENT SAYS THAT
THE ECONOMY WILL CREATE IN
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
NET JOBS 72,000 THIS YEAR.
81,000 IN 1996.
100,000 IN 1997, AND
WE THINK THAT THOSE
ARE FAIRLY CAUTIOUS
AND PRUDENT NUMBERS,
THE SAME WAY WE'VE
APPROACHED ALL OUR OTHER
ECONOMIC FORECASTS, BOTH IN
OUR JULY 21ST STATEMENT
AND IN THE STATEMENT
OF NOVEMBER 29TH.
YES, WE WILL
HAVE TO IMPROVE.
THE ECONOMY WILL HAVE TO
IMPROVE RATHER DRAMATICALLY
IN THE YEARS '98, '99,
AND THE YEAR 2000.
AND OUR COMMITMENT, I
MUST - BECAUSE PEOPLE
SOMETIMES GET THIS
CONFUSED.
THEY GET FISCAL YEARS
CONFUSED WITH CALENDAR
YEARS, AND DO
MYSELF SOMETIMES.
WE SAID IN OUR
FIRST BUDGET,
WHICH WILL BE IN
THE SPRING OF '96,
THE FISCAL YEAR 96-97, THAT
IS WHEN THE COMMON SENSE
DOCUMENT OR PLAN, IF
YOU WANT, WOULD START,
AND THAT IS WHEN
IT WILL START.
AND WE SAID BY THE TIME WE
GOT TO OUR FIFTH BUDGET,
WHICH WOULD BE THE BUDGET
FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 2000-2001,
AND WE UNDERSTAND THERE'LL
HAVE TO BE AN ELECTION
SOMETIME AT LEAST BY
THE YEAR 2000,
BUT IN THAT, BY THE TIME WE
GOT AROUND TO THAT FIFTH BUDGET,
WE THOUGHT THAT WE
COULD BALANCE THE BUDGET,
AND THAT IS STILL WITH
OUR GOAL AND OUR PLAN
IS TOWARDS, BUT THAT DOES
MEAN, YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT,
SOME SIGNIFICANT JOB
CREATION IN THE YEARS
'98, '99, AND 2000.

Steve says IT SEEMS UNLIKELY YOU'RE
GOING TO GET TO 725,000.

Eves says I WOULDN'T BE SO
SURE OF THAT...
ABOUT THAT IF I WERE YOU.
I THINK THAT IF WE ARE
SUCCESSFUL IN MAKING
THE JURISDICTION OF ONTARIO
COMPETITION AGAIN...
WITH OTHER JURISDICTIONS
I'M TALKING ABOUT...
BOTH WITH RESPECT TO
LEVELS OF TAXATION,
REDUCING THE
REGULATORY BARRIERS,
I THINK THAT REALLY
ALL THREE PARTIES
I THINK HELPED BUILD
UP OVER THE YEARS,
I THINK IF WE CAN STRIP
AWAY SOME OF THAT AND
MAKE THIS JURISDICTION
COMPETITIVE AGAIN,
NOT ONLY WITH OTHER
PROVINCES BUT STATES,
UNITED STATES, AND
INTERNATIONALLY AS WELL,
WE WILL CREATE AN
AWFUL LOT MORE JOBS,
AND I THINK WE'RE GOING
TO SURPRISE A FEW PEOPLE.

Steve says CAN I JUST ASK
WHAT YOU WOULD
RECOMMEND THAT PLACES LIKE
THE ONTARIO SCIENCE CENTRE
AND THE ROYAL ONTARIO
MUSEUM AND THE RADIO
STATION IN TORONTO,
CJRT, HAVING BEEN CUT,
WHAT WOULD YOU
RECOMMEND THEY DO NOW?

Eves says WELL, SOME OF THESE
AGENCIES ARE BEING CUT
BY DIFFERENT AMOUNTS, OF
COURSE, BY VARYING AMOUNTS.
NOW SOME ARE
19 PERCENT.
I THINK SOME
ARE 7 PERCENT,
SOME ARE 8 PERCENT.
I THINK MOST PEOPLE CAN SEE
THAT THEY CAN COPE WITH
A 7 PERCENT REDUCTION,
FOR EXAMPLE.
SURE IT'S NOT THE THING
YOU'D WANT TO DO,
BUT IF YOU HAVE
TO, YOU CAN.
I THINK EVERYBODY CAN
RELATE TO THOSE
TYPES OF NUMBERS.
WHEN YOU GET INTO THE
20s AND 30s AND 40s,
THEN I QUITE CONCUR,
THAT'S A DIFFERENT
PROBLEM ALTOGETHER.

Steve says SO YOUR
RECOMMENDATION IS WHAT?

Eves says WELL THEN I THINK YOU
HAVE TO RE-THINK
HOW YOU'RE DOING THINGS
AND RESTRUCTURE.
NOW IT'S EASY, I GUESS, FOR
GOVERNMENT TO SAY THAT.
IF YOU'RE ONE ENTITY, LIKE
YOU PICKED A COUPLE THERE,
THE ROYAL ONTARIO MUSEUM,
THAT'S PRETTY DIFFICULT.
I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO BE A LOT MORE
AGGRESSIVE WITH RESPECT
TO FUNDRAISING,
BUT WE'VE ALSO GIVEN SOME
OF THESE AGENCIES
AN OPPORTUNITY TO SOLICIT MORE
MONEY BY WAY OF DONATIONS
BY GIVING THEM CROWN
FOUNDATIONS AND, AS YOU KNOW,
THAT ENTITLES A DONOR
TO DONATE 100 PERCENT
OF THEIR INCOME AND HAVE IT AS
A TAX CREDIT OR A DEDUCTION
IN THE FIRST YEAR THAT
THEY DONATE THE MONEY.
THAT'S AS OPPOSED TO A
CHARITABLE DONATION
IN WHICH YOU'RE
LIMITED TO 20 PERCENT
OF YOUR TAXABLE INCOME.
THERE'S A HUGE
DIFFERENCE THERE,
AND I THINK THAT...
AND, YES,
THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE
TO RE-THINK HOW
THEY RAISE MONEY.
THEY CAN'T JUST RELY UPON
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO,
NOT THAT THEY JUST
RELIED, PERHAPS
THAT A POOR
CHOICE OF WORDS.

Steve says BUT THEY
DID OVERWHELMINGLY.

Eves says IN SOME AREAS,
YES, THEY DID.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says
FINANCE MINISTER
ERNIE EVES.
OKAY, LET'S KICK IT AROUND
HERE IN THE STUDIO WITH
OUR GANG OF QUEEN'S PARK
OBSERVERS, JANE PEPINO,
ONTARIO TORY
ACTIVIST AND LAWYER.

Jane is in her forties, with short gray hair. She's wearing a cyan blazer with a colourful silk scarf.

Steve continues PATRICK GOSSAGE,
LIBERAL ACTIVIST,
HEAD OF MEDIA PROFILE,

Patrick is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with wavy white hair. He's wearing oval glasses, a gray suit, striped shirt and matching tie.

Steve continues AND HUGH MACKENZIE, FORMER
ADVISER TO BOB RAE,
NOW WITH THE STEEL
WORKERS UNION.

Hugh is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with receding brown hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, and patterned tie.

Steve continues CAN I START BY TALKING
ABOUT WHAT EVERYBODY
WAS TALKING ABOUT AT
QUEEN'S PARK TODAY,
AND THAT IS THIS
HEALTHCARE PROMISE.
WAS IT BROKEN?
WAS IT KEPT?
THE PREMIER, AS I
UNDERSTAND HIS POSITION,
SAYS THERE WAS 17.4 BILLION
IN HEALTHCARE
WHEN WE TOOK OVER.
THERE WILL BE 17.4 BILLION
IN HEALTHCARE
WHEN WE GO TO THE
PEOPLE THE NEXT TIME.
THEREFORE, I WILL
HAVE KEPT MY PLEDGE
THAT NOT A CENT WAS CUT.
HOWEVER, WE'VE ALSO
SEEN HOSPITALS CUT
A 1.3 BILLION, AND SO ON
AND SO ON AND SO ON.
SO WHO'S TELLING
THE TRUTH HERE?
IS HEALTHCARE
BEING CUT OR NOT?
JANE.

A caption reads "Jane Pepino. Ontario Tory Activist."

Jane says IT'S BEING CUT,
NO QUESTION,
BUT THE PROMISE IS BEING
KEPT BECAUSE THE PART
THAT YOU DIDN'T REMEMBER
WAS THAT THEY SAID,
THERE WILL BE INITIATIVES
TAKEN TO FIND SAVINGS
IN THE SYSTEM AND THEY
WILL BE RE-INVESTED.
SO IN ORDER TO GET
THE RE-INVESTMENT,
THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO
BE SOME RE-DISTRIBUTION,
AND IT'S GOTTA
COME, I THINK,
FROM SOME FAIRLY SERIOUS
RE-ENGINEERING
WITHIN INDIVIDUAL
HOSPITALS AND THEN
ALSO WITHIN THE SYSTEM.
BUT DON'T FORGET, AS WELL,
THAT THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
IS MUCH BIGGER THAN SIMPLY
HOSPITALS AND THAT'S
THE OTHER PART OF THE
PROMISE THAT I THINK NEEDS
TO BE REMEMBERED, IS THAT
IT IS A HOLISTIC PACKAGE,
IN PARTICULAR WE KNOW
FOR MEDICAL REASONS,
PEOPLE ARE BEING MOVED
OUT INTO AMBULATORY CARE.
THEY'RE GETTING MORE
COMMUNITY SUPPORTED MEDICINE,
SO I THINK WE
HAVE TO LOOK AT
A SLIGHTLY BIGGER
FRAMEWORK.

Steve says I FORGET WHAT IT WAS, FIVE
OR SIX MEMBERS OF
THE LEGISLATURE GOT THROWN
OUT TODAY FOR SCREAMING
ACROSS THE FLOOR OF
THE LEGISLATURE,
MIKE HARRIS IS A LIAR.
THEY SAID IT OVER
AND OVER AGAIN.

Jane says THEY GOT THROW OUT
BECAUSE THEY WERE WRONG.
HE'S NOT.
PLUS IT WAS, OF COURSE,
UNPARLIAMENTARY.

Steve says IT WAS.
YOU WANT TO TAKE ISSUE WITH
THAT OR DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

The caption changes to "Hugh Mackenzie. Former Aide to Bob Rae."

Hugh says I GUESS I TAKE ISSUE WITH
ONE OF THE BASIC PREMISES
OF THE INTRODUCTION
THAT YOU GAVE, WHICH WAS
THAT THE STATEMENT
THAT A LOT OF TORIES
HAVE BEEN MAKING OVER THE
LAST FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS,
THAT NOBODY
SHOULD BE SURPRISED,
WE'RE JUST DOING WHAT
WE SAID WE'D DO.
WELL IN FACT, WHAT THEY'RE
DOING IS THEY'RE DOING
WHAT THE OPPOSITION SAID
THEY WERE GOING TO DO.
THEY'RE CHERRY PICKING
AMONGST THE PROMISES THEY MADE.
SOME OF THE PROMISES ARE
BEING KEPT AND SOME OF THE
PROMISES AREN'T BEING KEPT,
AND WHAT'S REALLY REVEALING
TO ME, I THINK, IS THE
PROMISES THAT THEY'RE
CHOOSING TO KEEP AND THE
PROMISES THEY'RE CHOOSING
NOT TO KEEP, AND FRANKLY
I THINK THE CHOICES
THAT THEY'RE MAKING
ARE JUST DISGRACEFUL.

Steve says BUT IF THE END OF THE DAY,
THERE'S 17.4 BILLION dollars
IN THE HEALTHCARE ENVELOPE,
AS THEY LIKE TO CALL IT,
IS THAT A PROMISE KEPT?

Hugh says WELL, LET'S TAKE
THAT AT FACE VALUE.
LET'S ASSUME THAT THEY
ACTUALLY DO THAT AND
WE GO THROUGH FOUR YEARS,
FOUR TIMES 1.7 IS HOW MUCH?

Steve says 6.8.

Hugh says 1.7 OR WAS IT 1.3
THEY CUT TODAY?

Steve says 1.3 BILLION CUT
FROM HOSPITALS.

Hugh says THAT'S RIGHT, SO
MULTIPLY THAT BY FOUR,
OVER FOUR YEARS, THAT'S
ABOUT 5 BILLION dollars.

Steve says BUT AS JANE SAYS, THEY'RE
ALSO PUTTING MONEY IN.

Hugh says ASK A FAIR MINDED PERSON IF
IT IS KEEPING A PROMISE NOT
TO CUT HEALTHCARE TO
START WITH 17.4...
AND LET'S ASSUME THEY
EVEN END AT 17.4,
AND IN THE MIDDLE
THERE'S 5 BILLION GONE.
THAT DOESN'T SOUND TO ME
LIKE KEEPING THE PROMISE
AND I DON'T THINK PEOPLE
WILL THINK THAT EITHER.

Steve says PATRICK.

The caption changes to "Patrick Gossage. Liberal Activist."

Patrick says WELL I THINK HUGH,
PROBABLY QUITE CLEVERLY,
IDENTIFIED THE
BANANA PEEL HERE.
THAT'S MY GIMME
TO YOU TODAY.
IN THAT THE USER FEE, WHICH
A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME
WOULD SMELL AS SWEET, I
REALLY THINK WHEN
MY MOTHER HAS TO, ON TOP
OF HER 8 OR 9 BUCKS,
SPEND A 2 dollar FEE AND
THERE'S A 100 dollar MINIMUM.

Hugh says SHE'S
GOING TO REMEMBER
THAT IT'S A CO-PAYMENT.

Patrick says PRECISELY, AND I THINK YOU'RE
ON TO SOMETHING AND I THINK
IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE FACT OF
EITHER A PROMISE WAS BROKEN
OR A PROMISE WASN'T; IN
THE HEALTHCARE FIELD,
WE ARE OPENING THE DOOR
TO PAYING SOMETHING
TO GET SOMETHING THAT
WAS FREE BEFORE,
AND SO TO ME THAT LOOKS
LIKE A BROKEN PROMISE AND
I THINK THE POLITICS OF THAT
ARE VERY BAD AND I KNOW
THAT, JANE, YOU AND LIKE
THIS NEWSPAPER,
THE STAR.
I THINK
THE STAR
IS ONTO
SOMETHING BECAUSE I THINK
IT'S THE PAY AS YOU GO.
THE PAY-AS-YOU-GO PRINCIPLE
THAT IS STARTING TO BE
INTRODUCED IN A VERY SUBTLE
WAY AND I THINK
THE STAR
NAILED IT AND YOU DID
TOO IN YOUR INTERVIEW,
THAT IN THE END IS GOING
TO MAKE TROUBLE FOR
THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE
FRANKLY THE MUNICIPALITIES
WHO'VE BEEN SLASHED AND
BURNED RATHER SEVERELY
ARE GOING TO PASS ON ALL KIND...
THERE ALL GOING TO BE KINDS
OF OTHER USER PAY THINGS,
LIKE GARBAGE COLLECTION
AND SO ON, AND I THINK
IS THE BANANA PEEL.

Steve says GO AHEAD, JANE.

Jane says I DON'T UNDERSTAND
THAT IMAGE AT ALL,
SO I'LL JUST LEAVE
THE BANANA PEEL.

Patrick says THIS IS THE ONE THAT'S
GOING TO HURT THEM POLITICALLY.

Jane says I DON'T THINK SO
BECAUSE - I MEAN,
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
CANADA HEALTH ACT,
AND I THINK EVERYBODY
HAS KIND OF NOTIONALLY
DETERMINED WHETHER OR NOT
A USER FEE IS SOMETHING
THAT IS NOT PERMITTED BY
THE CANADA HEALTH ACT,
AND THE CO-PAYMENT,
CALL IT WHAT YOU WILL,
ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE,
AND I HEARD AN INTERESTING
COMMENT THIS MORNING
ACTUALLY WHEN SOMEONE
SPEAKING OF THE
CO-PAYMENT FEES,
A HEALTH ECONOMIST SAID,
SHE REFERRED TO IT AS
KEEPING DOWN WITH THE
JONES, BECAUSE THE FACT IS,
IT'S PERMITTED BY THE
CANADA HEALTH ACT.
IT'S THEREFORE NOT AGAINST
UNIVERSAL MEDICINE
AND UNIVERSAL ACCESS
TO MEDICINE,
AND IT'S - WE WERE
THE LAST PROVINCE
THAT HAD MAINTAINED IT.
IT HAD BEEN AN ADD-ON
IN THE BOOM YEARS.
SO FROM THAT
PERSPECTIVE...

Hugh says YOU'RE DEFENDING THE
BROKEN PROMISE, THAT'S OKAY.

Jane says IT'S NOT A BROKEN
PROMISE THOUGH, HUGH,
THAT'S THE POINT.

Patrick says THE PERCEPTION
IS THE REALITY OF THAT.

Steve says LET'S CLEAR THIS UP
BECAUSE ON THE ISSUE OF
THE ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PLAN,
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE, THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION IS PRETTY SPECIFIC.
IT SAYS ON THE
ISSUE OF HEALTHCARE,
NO NEW USER FEES.

Jane says RIGHT.

Steve says NOW I GUESS WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT
WHETHER THIS IS A
USER FEE.
WELL, YOU ALREADY HAD
IT WITH THE MINISTER.
YOU'VE HAD THE ARGUMENT
AND GOT THE OFFICIAL LINE
FROM THE MINISTRY
OF TRUTH.

Jane says CAN I JUST PICK UP,
THOUGH, ON THE COMMENT...

Patrick says I JUST THINK IT'S A
MISTAKE, THOUGH, JANE,
AND I THINK THEY'LL
PAY FOR THIS.

Jane says TIME WILL TELL.

Patrick says IT'LL BE ALL LUMPED
TOGETHER IN PEOPLE'S MINDS,
HEY WAIT A MINUTE, THINGS
THAT WERE - THINGS THAT
USED TO BE FREE SUDDENLY
THERE'S A BILL
EVERY TIME THIS HAPPENS.
WHAT'S GOVERNMENT FOR?

Jane says WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, I
THINK GOVERNMENT...
PART OF WHAT'S GOING ON HERE
IS NOT SIMPLY THE GOVERNMENT
KEEPING THE PROMISE OF THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION,
BUT I THINK IT'S EQUALLY
DOING WHAT THE PEOPLE
HAVE SAID THEY REALLY
WANT, AND THAT INCLUDED
RESTRUCTURING.
THAT INCLUDED
LESS GOVERNMENT.
THAT INCLUDED TAKING SOME
POWERS AND SOME FISCAL
OBLIGATIONS AND
ACCOUNTABILITY,
PUSHING IT DOWN.
I MEAN, TO PICK UP ON YOUR
POINT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED
WITH THE MUNICIPALITIES.
THEY'RE NOW BEING...
GOING TO BE GIVEN IN MANY
CIRCUMSTANCES BLOCK
TRANSFER PAYMENTS WHICH
WILL ALLOW THEM TO MAKE
THEIR OWN CHOICES
CLOSE TO HOME.
IF FOR EXAMPLE METRO
TORONTO OR THE CITY OF
TORONTO SAYS, ARTS - THE
ARTS COMMUNITY FOR US
IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE
IT'S A VERY BIG ECONOMIC
GENERATOR IN OUR
PARTICULAR MUNICIPALITY,
THEY MAY CHOOSE TO GO
FOR USER FEES TO PICK UP
RECYCLING FOR EXAMPLE.
THEY MAY CHOOSE TO
PRIVATIZE GARBAGE
PICKUP FOR EXAMPLE.

Patrick says THOSE AREN'T THE KINDS OF
TRADE-OFFS THAT ARE MADE
IN MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENTS.

Jane says THAT'S WHAT
AMO'S BEEN ASKING FOR.
THEY HAVEN'T BEEN MADE
TO DATE BUT THAT'S
WHAT THE ASSOCIATION OF
MUNICIPALITIES OF ONTARIO
HAS BEEN ASKING FOR IS THAT
KIND OF FLEXIBILITY
TO GENERATE THEIR OWN
NEW KINDS OF REVENUES.

Steve says CAN I PURSUE THE ISSUE OF
THE BANANA PEEL AGAIN?
BECAUSE SO FAR THE VAST
MAJORITY OF THINGS THAT
THE NEW GOVERNMENT HAS
BROUGHT IN HAVE BEEN
NOT AGAINST THEIR CORE.
YOU KNOW, YOU WANNA
WHACK WELFARE...

Jane says WE'VE GOT APPLES NOW?

She laughs.

Steve says YOU WANT TO DEDUCT 22 PERCENT
FROM WELFARE RECIPIENTS.

Patrick says OH, THEY'RE CHEATS...
MOST OF THEM ARE CHEATS.

Steve says HANG ON, LET ME
PURSUE THE ISSUE.
WELFARE RECIPIENTS
WEREN'T THEIR CORE.
THIS STUFF GOES
AGAINST THE CORE.

Hugh says THIS GOES RIGHT
AFTER THE MIDDLE GUY.

Steve says THIS GOES AFTER PEOPLE WHO
VOTED FOR THE TORIES
IN THE LAST ELECTION.

Hugh says EXACTLY.

Steve says THE QUESTION IS, WILL
THEY LIKE IT OR
WON'T THEY LIKE IT?

Jane says THEY UNDERSTAND WHY
IT HAS TO BE DONE.
THEY REALLY TRULY
UNDERSTAND IT MUST BE DONE.

Steve says HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

Jane says WELL, I'VE BEEN LISTENING
TO - I'VE BEEN SPENDING
A LOT OF TIME IN THE CAR
MORNINGS AND NIGHTS
THESE DAYS AND I'VE BEEN
LISTENING TO PHONE-IN SHOWS.
I'VE BEEN LISTENING
TO COMMENTARY.
IT'S AMAZING.
PEOPLE ARE
SAYING, YEAH, GOD,
IT'S GONNA HURT AND IT'S
GONNA BE DIFFERENT AND THEY
ARE GOING TO BE A LOT OF
THINGS THAT WE'RE NOT
GOING TO LIKE ABOUT IT,
BUT IT HAS TO BE DONE.

Hugh says I THINK THE CRUCIAL THING...
ONE OF THE CRUCIAL THINGS
FOR WHETHER PEOPLE
ARE GOING TO BE PREPARED
TO ACCEPT THIS OR NOT IS
WHETHER THEY STICK
WITH THIS NUTTY
TAX PROPOSAL.

Steve says YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THE TAX CUTS?

Hugh says ABOUT THIS HUGE TAX CUT,
BECAUSE IF THEY STICK
WITH THAT TAX PROPOSAL, IT
IS GOING TO BE ABSOLUTELY
TRANSPARENT TO PEOPLE
THAT ALL OF THIS PAIN,
ALL OF THIS SLASHING,
ALL THESE USER FEES,
ALL OF THESE CUTS
TO PUBLIC TRANSIT,
ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT
PEOPLE ARE BEARING
ARE GOING TO BE FOR THE
PURPOSE OF PROVIDING
A HUGE TAX BREAK THAT GOES
DISPROPORTIONATELY
TO VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE
IN THIS PROVINCE,
AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO
FIND THAT UNACCEPTABLE.

Steve says ARE YOU HEARING...
LET ME ASK...

Hugh says FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON, I
CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT
NUMBER, BUT I THINK THE
AVERAGE - FOR THE AVERAGE
FAMILY, THE TAX CUT
WORKS OUT TO BE 1,000 dollars.
WELL, YOU START TO ADD UP
THINGS LIKE WHAT THE IMPACT
IS GOING TO BE ON MUNICIPAL
TAXES AND HOW MUCH MORE
IT'S GOING TO COST THEM FOR
PUBLIC TRANSIT AND WHAT
IT'S GOING TO COST THEM FOR
THIS USER FEE AND THAT USER FEE,
THEY START TO SEE THAT
DISAPPEARING AND THEY SAY,
WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, NOT
ONLY AM I GIVING UP
ALL OF THIS STUFF BUT
ONTARIO'S GIVING ITSELF UP.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION.

Hugh says WE'RE GIVING UP A
LOT OF OUR SOUL IN THIS.
BECAUSE YOU'VE SAID
MANY TIMES, JOKINGLY,
I THINK ON THIS
PROGRAM IN THE PAST,
I CAN'T WAIT FOR NEXT YEAR
WHEN I GET MY BIG TAX BREAK
BECAUSE I'M AN ABOVE
AVERAGE EARNER.
WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO
FOREGO THE TAX BREAK
IF IT MEANT LESS CUTTING?

Patrick says WELL, I THINK THIS IS
ACTUALLY MAKING MY DAY,
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE
PEOPLE IN OUR OFFICE
WERE TALKING ABOUT TODAY,
THAT THEY'D BE HAPPY
TO FOREGO IT.

Steve says HOW WIDESPREAD DO YOU
THINK THAT VIEW IS?

Patrick says I THINK WHEN LATER ON THIS
WINTER WHEN TORONTO STARTS
TO LOOK LIKE A VERY MEAN
CITY AND WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR
FIRST DEATH OF A STREET
PERSON AND WHEN THE FOOD BANK
CAN'T KEEP UP, AND
WHEN THE HOMELESS...
THEY'VE ALREADY
DOUBLED APPARENTLY...
I THINK A LOT
OF PEOPLE...
THERE'S STILL A LOT
OF CARING IN ONTARIO,
A LOT OF CARING AND
GENEROUS PEOPLE,
AND I THINK THERE'LL
BE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY,
I DON'T NEED
THE 1,700 BUCKS.
LET'S GET THIS BLOODY
DEFICIT DOWN FASTER.
LET'S FORGET IT, WHICH WILL
THEN PLAY UNFORTUNATELY
POLITICALLY RIGHT
INTO HARRIS'S HANDS.
AND YOU KNOW I DON'T THINK
WE'RE GOING TO SEE IT.

Steve says AND OFFER HIM THE OPTION OF
NOT OFFERING THE TAX CUT,
IS THAT WHAT YOU THINK?

Patrick says I THINK PEOPLE WOULD.

Jane says ALTERNATIVELY.

Patrick says I MEAN IT'S ALMOST BEING
SET UP THAT IT'S GOING
TO BE SO CRUEL THAT THE
GENEROUS SPIRIT OF ONTARIANS,
I THINK IT'LL
END UP BEING...
AND THERE'LL BE
POLLS ASKING PEOPLE,
PEOPLE WILL SAY,
I'LL FOREGO IT.

Jane says THE OTHER THING TOO IS THAT...
AND THERE IS A SPIRIT OF
GENEROSITY IN THIS PROVINCE
AND PATRICK AND HIS COLLEAGUES,
I THINK, EXEMPLIFY IT
WITH WHAT
THEY'VE BEEN DISCUSSING.
BUT IF THE TAX
BREAK DID COME,
THERE IS ALSO
THE OPPORTUNITY,
BECAUSE WE'RE ALL BEING
ASKED TO DO MORE WITH LESS,
AND I THINK COMES WITH THAT
THE OBLIGATION FOR THOSE
OF US WHO CAN HELP,
TO HELP MORE.
UNITED WAY DID MAKE
ITS GOAL THIS YEAR,
AND I THINK IT SHOULD SET
ITS GOALS HIGHER EVERY YEAR,
AND IT SHOULD BE - THERE
SHOULD BE AN EXPECTATION
THAT WE ALL DIG A
LITTLE DEEPER AND THAT
1,700 dollars COULD GO
RIGHT TO CHARITY.

Patrick says YEAH, BUT WHY GO THROUGH
THE MISERY THOUGH?
I MEAN, I'M WITH YOU, WHY
GO THROUGH THE MISERY?

Jane says BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, CAN I
JUST COME TO SOMETHING ELSE,
TOO, THOUGH BECAUSE I
THINK ONE OF THE IMPORTANT
THINGS THAT GOT
MISSED TODAY,
AND IT COMES BACK TO MY POINT
ABOUT THE RESTRUCTURING,
THAT IT'S NOT JUST
COST CUTTING,
IT'S RESTRUCTURING.
TO TAKE OFF ON YOUR
POINT, PATRICK,
IS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN
CHANGES MADE TO ALLOW
THINGS LIKE HOSPITALS AND
THE ROM AND THE ART GALLERY
AND THE LIKE TO DO MUCH
MORE EFFECTIVE
PRIVATE FUNDRAISING.

Steve says EVES MENTIONED THAT.

Jane says SPEAKING AS SOMEONE
ON A HOSPITAL BOARD,
WE'VE BEEN LOBBYING
FOR THAT FOR YEARS.

Steve says WHICH HOSPITAL?

Jane says WOMEN'S COLLEGE.

Patrick says OOH, ISN'T
THAT INTERESTING.

Hugh says AND IT'S
GOING TO DISAPPEAR.

Jane says NO, IT WON'T.
IT'LL NEVER HAPPEN.

They all laugh.

Steve says HOW LOYAL OF A TORY
ACTIVIST WILL YOU BE
WHEN THEY CLOSE THAT DOWN?

Jane says VERY, VERY.

Steve says WHAT HAVE WE GOT HERE,
ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF?

Hugh says THAT RAISES A REALLY
INTERESTING POINT BECAUSE
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT THIS BUDGET...
WHAT THIS BUDGET DOES, IS
IT STARTS TO DIVIDE
THE PROVINCE IN TO TWO
CLASSES OF PEOPLE.
THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE
RESOURCES TO BE ABLE
TO MAKE CHOICES, TO OPT
OUT OF PUBLIC SERVICES,
OR IF THEY HAPPEN TO BE
ON A HOSPITAL BOARD OR
CONNECTED WITH A HOSPITAL
THAT'S WELL CONNECTED
WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND WELL
CONNECTED WITH WEALTHY PEOPLE,
THEY'LL BE ABLE TO
PRESERVE SOME THINGS
AND TO HELL WITH
EVERYBODY ELSE.
AND I THINK THAT'S VERY,
VERY DAMAGING FOR THE PROVINCE.
I REALLY DO.

Jane says BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, THE
GOOD NEWS OUT OF THIS ONE
FROM BOTH THE RESTRUCTURING
POINT OF VIEW AND
FRANKLY FROM A SPENDING,
COST-CUTTING POINT OF VIEW IS,
WE WILL FINALLY START TO
GET SOME CONFIDENCE BACK
IN OUR OWN INVESTORS
AND IN INTERNATIONAL
AND TRANS-BORDER INVESTMENT.
VERY IMPORTANT
FOR JOB CREATION.

Steve says LAST COMMENT TO YOU,
COACH, 20 SECONDS.

Patrick says I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED IS,
WE'RE NOW MOVING ON TO
THE DEFICIT AGENDA
AND TO STUFF THAT...
WELL, COME ON, HUGH,
DO YOUR THING.
THAT NOBODY CAN
UNDERSTAND.

Hugh pulls out a fat book and slams it on the table.

He says HERE'S THE
OMNIBUS BILL.
THIS IS THE
OMNIBUS BILL.
THIS SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT
DEMOCRACY THAT IN...

Patrick says I WASN'T TRYING
TO SET YOU UP.

Jane says IN TWO WEEKS...
YOU DID.
IN TWO WEEKS THE
LEGISLATURE IS SUPPOSED
TO DEAL WITH THIS, WITH NO
PUBLIC INPUT, WITH CLOSURE,
AND WITH EVERYTHING
BUT THE KITCHEN SINK.

Steve says THANK YOU FOR
THIS DISCUSSION.

Patrick says THANK
GOD WE HAVE STUDIO 2.
IT WAS VERY PARLIAMENTARY,
I DIDN'T HAVE TO THROW
ANYBODY OUT.
SEE YOU ALL NEXT TIME.

Then, he faces the screen and says
OKAY, WE LIKE YOUR
OPINIONS ON THE PROGRAM
SO PLEASE WRITE TO US AT...

A slate reads "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1."

Steve says STEADY, BOYS.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS MORE
LATER - OR ON THE INTERNET...

A new slate reads "Internet address, studio2@tvo.org"

Steve continues THAT'S THE ADDRESS
IN CYBERSPACE.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN, SEE
YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.
BYE BYE.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1995, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #46