Transcript: Show #41 | Oct 29, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS
WEEK, YES, OR NO?

A clip plays.

A middle-aged man says IF THERE'S A YES VOTE,
IT'S GOING TO BE
EXTRAORDINARILY SERIOUS.
IT WILL BE MAYHEM.

People cheer in a political meeting.

Steve says QUEBECERS GO TO THE
POLLS TO DECIDE THE FATE
OF CANADA.

Bob Rae is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven, with white hair.

In a Steve’s program, Bob says THERE'S NO NICE WAY, EASY
WAY, OR FRIENDLY WAY TO
BREAK UP A COUNTRY
AFTER 130 YEARS.
IT CAN'T BE DONE.

The clip ends.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a checked blue jacket and a dark green turtleneck sweater.

Steve says IN THE DWINDLING HOURS
OF QUEBEC'S REFERENDUM
CAMPAIGN, ONTARIANS ARE
ALL ASKING THEMSELVES
THE SAME QUESTION.
WHAT KIND OF CANADA WILL WE
HAVE AFTER MONDAY NIGHT'S VOTE?
HI, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
PLEASE STAY WITH US FOR
THIS SPECIAL EDITION
OF
4th READING.
THERE IS A DIFFERENT AGONY
FOR THOSE OF US IN THE REST
OF CANADA BECAUSE UNLIKE
QUEBECERS, WE HAVE BEEN
REDUCED TO SPECTATORS ON
THE SIDELINES OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT GAME OF OUR LIVES.
SO WE THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE
USEFUL TO HEAR FROM TWO OF
THOSE SPECTATORS, TWO FORMER
PREMIERS OF ONTARIO, WHO AS
THE EXPRESSION GOES, SPILLED
A LOT OF POLITICAL BLOOD
TRYING TO KEEP
QUEBEC IN CANADA.
LATER IN THE PROGRAM, THE
THOUGHTS OF DAVID PETERSON,
LIBERAL PREMIER FROM 1985
TO '90, SIGNATORY TO THE
MEECH LAKE ACCORD.
AND IN JUST A MOMENT, BOB
RAE, NDP PREMIER FROM 1990
TO '95, ARCHITECT OF THE
CHARLOTTETOWN ACCORD.
BUT FIRST, AT QUEEN'S PARK,
WHERE THE THREE PARTY
LEADERS WOOED QUEBEC VOTERS
WITH HEARTFELT PLEAS ON THE
EVE OF WHAT COULD BE
A VERY MESSY DIVORCE.

A clip plays.

The Male Premier says TODAY, IN THIS LEGISLATURE,
WE ARE SETTING ASIDE OUR
PARTISAN DIFFERENCES TO
JOIN TOGETHER WITH ONE
VOICE TO SAY WE LOVE
CANADA, AND WE WANT IT
TO STAY TOGETHER.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Lyn McLeod. Ontario Liberal Leader." Lyn is in her fifties with short curly gray hair.

Lyn says ABOVE ALL ELSE, THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ONTARIO
AND QUEBEC IS REALLY AN
AFFAIR OF THE HEART.
THERE IS LOVE, AND
THERE IS PASSION.
THERE IS A BOND THAT IS
GREATER THAN THE SUM TOTAL
OF ALL THE LITTLE THINGS ON
WHICH THE RELATIONSHIP HAS
BEEN BUILT.

The caption changes to "Bob Rae. Ontario NDP Leader."

Bob says I CANNOT IMAGINE
CANADA WITHOUT QUEBEC.
I CANNOT IMAGINE THE COUNTRY
BEING STILL THE COUNTRY
WITHOUT QUEBEC.

Steve says POLITICAL SCIENTISTS
AND CONSTITUTIONAL EXPERTS
PREDICT THE PROVINCES WILL
FALL IN BEHIND OTTAWA
IMMEDIATELY
AFTER A YES VOTE.

The caption changes to "Professor David Cameron. University of Toronto." David is in his mid fifties, clean-shaven with receding gray hair.

David says THE INSTINCT OF ONTARIO
PREMIERS, AND THIS IS FAIRLY
LONGSTANDING TRADITION, HAS
BEEN TO LINE UP BEHIND THE
PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA AND
BACK THE PRIME MINISTER OF
CANADA IN MOMENTS OF CRISIS.

Steve says BUT IN THE LONG RUN,
COMMENTATORS SAY A YES VOTE
WOULD PUT ONTARIO AND MIKE
HARRIS IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT
OF A NEW CANADIAN
FEDERATION.

The caption changes to "David Peterson. Former Liberal Premier." He’s in his fifties, with white hair and clean-shaven.

Peterson says I THINK HE WILL BE AN
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT PLAYER
IN THE WHOLE SITUATION.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE
WILL BE A NEW CANADIAN
FEDERALISM BECAUSE IF
QUEBEC DECIDES TO GO, IT'S
NOT A QUESTION OF REHAULING
THE CONSTITUTION, BUT HIS
VOICE WILL BE AN EXTREMELY
IMPORTANT ONE, AND I THINK THAT
HE WOULD ASSUME THE LEADERSHIP
THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED.

[applause]
A crowd waves flags in a meeting.

Steve says EVEN IF THE VOTE IS
NO, THE QUEBEC QUESTION
WILL CERTAINLY REMAIN ON
THE POLITICAL AGENDA,
ACCORDING TO THIS
CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER.

The caption changes to "Professor Ann Bayesfsky. University of Ottawa." Ann is in her forties with short dark brown hair.

Ann says THE SOVEREIGNTISTS' IDEA AND
ASPIRATIONS WILL REMAIN
LIKE A FESTERING SORE
ON THE CANADIAN PSYCHE.
THE VERY GRAVE PROBLEM FOR
CANADA IS THAT THOSE PEOPLE
WILL REMAIN WITH THEIR
AMBITIONS AND THEIR ASPIRATIONS,
AND THEY ARE GOING TO
CONTINUE DOWN THAT ROAD.

Steve says AND THAT IS LIKELY TO
PLACE FURTHER PRESSURE ON
THE SHIFT IN POWER FROM
OTTAWA TO THE PROVINCES.

The caption changes to "Professor Peter Hogg. Constitutional Law Expert." Peter is in his late forties, clean-shaven with side-parted gray hair.

Peter says I'M SURE THERE WILL BE
A FURTHER ATTEMPT TO
DECENTRALIZE BECAUSE IF
THERE'S A NO VOTE, AND IT'S
A NARROW NO VOTE, IT'S
STILL A VERY DISTURBING
SITUATION BECAUSE CLOSE TO
A MAJORITY OF QUEBEC VOTERS
WILL HAVE VOTED TO
LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
SO ALTHOUGH THEY ARE NOT A
MAJORITY, OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS
A SITUATION NO NATION WOULD
TOLERATE WITH EQUANIMITY.

Ann says I WORRY THAT PREMIER HARRIS
WILL TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
OF A POST-NO BUT CLOSE NO
VOTE, POST REFERENDUM,
AND TRY TO FURTHER
DECENTRALIZE THE COUNTRY.
AND THE OTHER PROVINCES'
PROVINCIAL PREMIERS MAY DO
THE VERY SAME THING, IN THE
SAME KINDS OF POWER GRABS
WHICH HAVE BECOME SO
FAMILIAR TO US OVER
THE LAST 20-30 YEARS.

At a meeting, a male politician says OF COURSE CANADA CAN
AND MUST BE IMPROVED,
BUT
IT IS A COUNTRY WHICH
IS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD.

The clip ends.

Steve says AND BOB RAE JOINS
US NOW IN STUDIO.
"I CANNOT IMAGINE CANADA
WITHOUT QUEBEC" YOU SAID.
AND LUCIEN BOUCHARD IS
BASICALLY SAYING, GET OVER
IT, BOB, YOU SHOULD START
TO IMAGINE CANADA WITHOUT
QUEBEC BECAUSE HE SAID THE
OTHER NIGHT, "WE ARE REALLY
TWO PEOPLES WHO DON'T KNOW
EACH OTHER VERY WELL AT ALL."
TO WHICH YOU
SAY WHAT?

Bob Rae wears a dark gray suit, glasses, a pale blue shirt, a brooch on his left lapel and dotted black tie.

Bob says HE'S COMPLETELY
WRONG.
I MEAN, I THINK THERE'S A
LOT OF UNDERSTANDING AND A
GREAT DEAL OF FRIENDSHIP,
A LOT OF WORKING TOGETHER
IN MANY, MANY WAYS.

The caption changes to "Bob Rae. Former NDP Premier."

Bob continues MISTER BOUCHARD KNOWS
THAT PERFECTLY WELL.
HE WAS A FEDERAL
CABINET MINISTER.
HE SERVED THE COUNTRY AS
ITS AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE.
I THINK IT'S AN ASTONISHING
STATEMENT THAT HE WOULD MAKE.

Steve says HE THINKS IT'S A
MARRIAGE OF CONVENIENCE,
AN ECONOMICALLY CONVENIENT
MARRIAGE TO NOW.

Bob says NO, I THINK, IN FACT, IT
JUST BELIES THE FACT WE'VE
HAD A COMMON HISTORY THAT
GOES BACK 200 YEARS.
IF YOU GO BACK HISTORICALLY
AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED, AND
LOOK AT WHO WE ARE AS A
PEOPLE, HOW DID THE COUNTRY
COME TO BE FORMED, WE HAVE
CANADA TODAY BECAUSE PEOPLE
ON BOTH SIDES OF THE OTTAWA
RIVER, COMING FROM VERY
DIFFERENT CULTURES,
RECOGNIZED IT WAS IN THEIR
INTERESTS AND IT MADE SENSE
FOR THEM TO COME TOGETHER,
AND ALSO TO RECOGNIZE
THEIR DIFFERENCES.
AND THAT'S THE GENIUS OF
FEDERALISM, IS IT ALLOWS
THAT TO HAPPEN.
WE'RE NOT A
UNITARY STATE.
CANADA IS NOT A
UNITARY COUNTRY.
WE HAVE PROVINCES THAT HAVE
SIGNIFICANT POWERS, IN FACT
ARE SOVEREIGN, IF I CAN USE
THAT WORD, IN MANY, MANY AREAS.
THE AREA OF EDUCATION, FOR
EXAMPLE, THE AREA OF SOCIAL
SERVICES, THE AREA OF
WORKERS' COMPENSATION,
A WHOLE LOT OF PRACTICAL
ISSUES, THE PROVINCES HAVE
HUGE AND
SIGNIFICANT POWERS.
AND THAT'S THE WAY IT
WAS DESIGNED IN PART BY
CONFEDERATION IN 1867,
AND THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.
AND WE'VE HAD FEDERAL
GOVERNMENTS IN WHICH FRENCH
CANADIANS AND ENGLISH
CANADIANS AND PEOPLE FROM
ALL WALKS OF LIFE HAVE
WORKED TOGETHER OVER MANY,
MANY YEARS.
WE'VE BEEN THROUGH SEVERAL
CRISES, DIFFICULT ONES,
FOUGHT WORLD WARS, BUILT
A COUNTRY, GONE THROUGH
A DEPRESSION, COME
OUT THE OTHER END.
AND FRANKLY, IN THE LAST
35 YEARS, WE'VE SEEN AN
EXTRAORDINARY TRANSFORMATION
OF QUEBEC'S SOCIETY
WITHIN CANADA.

Steve says BUT YOU SAID
THE OTHER DAY IN THE
LEGISLATURE THAT IT MAY
BE VERY TOUGH TO AMEND A
CONSTITUTION, BUT IT IS
EVEN TOUGHER TO BREAK UP
A COUNTRY.
TO WHICH I'M GUESSING HE
WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?
IT'S PROVED IMPOSSIBLE TO
AMEND THE CONSTITUTION,
AND IT IS LOOKING A HECK OF
A LOT SIMPLER TO BREAK UP
THE COUNTRY.

Bob says I THINK HE'S
WRONG THERE, TOO.
BECAUSE I THINK WE'VE HAD
SETBACKS ALONG THE ROAD TO
CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM, BUT
ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK
MOST OBSERVERS WOULD
SAY LOOKING AT ALL THE
COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD,
CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM IS
NEVER EASY BECAUSE TO SOME
EXTENT YOU'RE DEALING WITH
FUNDAMENTALS, FUNDAMENTAL
VALUES, FUNDAMENTAL FEELINGS,
AND THOSE THINGS ARE
OFTEN HARD TO RECONCILE.
SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT
WE'VE HAD DIFFICULTIES.
TO SOME EXTENT WE HAVEN'T
EVEN HAD THE ABILITY TO
REFORM OR AMEND OUR OWN
CONSTITUTION AS OUR OWN
CONSTITUTION UNTIL 1980
WHEN IT WAS PATRIATED.
SO YES, MEECH LAKE WAS
NEGOTIATED, BUT IT WASN'T
SUCCESSFULLY RATIFIED,
AND CHARLOTTETOWN WAS
SUCCESSFULLY NEGOTIATED
AND IT WAS NOT RATIFIED.
BUT THAT IS NO REASON
TO BREAK UP A COUNTRY.
AND I THINK THIS IS
SOMETHING WE HAVE TO GO
BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN TO THE
SEPARATISTS ON AND SAY,
LOOK, IF YOU THINK THAT'S
BEEN DIFFICULT TO DO,
IMAGINE, DO YOU HONESTLY...
THIS IS A TERRIBLE ILLUSION
AMONG THE SEPARATISTS THAT
SOMEHOW ONCE THEY GET A YES
VOTE, WHICH I DON'T
PERSONALLY WANT TO
EMPHASIZE FOR YOUR VIEWERS,
AND FOR EVERYONE HERE,
I DO NOT BELIEVE IS
GOING TO HAPPEN.
I'M QUITE CONFIDENT THAT THE
NO IS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
I THINK THE REAL QUESTION IS
WHAT DO WE DO WHEN THERE'S
A NO, AND WITH THE
CONSEQUENCES THAT WE'VE
SEEN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL
MONTHS OF THE CAMPAIGN.
BUT THERE'S A TERRIBLE
ILLUSION AT THE HEART OF THE
SEPARATIST CAMPAIGN, AND
THAT IS THAT A YES IS A
MATTER OF MISTER BOUCHARD
IS ELECTED AND CHOSEN AS
NEGOTIATOR AND CHIEF, AND
EQUAL TO EQUAL, TWO PEOPLE
WILL SIT DOWN AND NEGOTIATE
THE BREAK-UP OF A COUNTRY
He snaps his fingers and continues
AND IT CAN ALL BE DONE IN
THE MATTER OF A FEW MONTHS.
THIS IS ABSOLUTE, ABSOLUTE
AND TOTAL FANTASY.
I'VE NEVER HEARD A MORE
UNREALISTIC SENSE OF
WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.
I MEAN, IF HE THINKS THE
NEGOTIATIONS OVER MEECH LAKE
WERE DIFFICULT, OVER
CHARLOTTETOWN WERE
DIFFICULT, THEY WERE
COMPLEX, INVOLVED BALANCING
A NUMBER OF INTERESTS, AND
ULTIMATELY WE WERE NOT ABLE
TO CONVINCE CANADIANS THAT
THIS WAS THE WAY TO GO,
BUT I STILL BELIEVE THAT
IS A FAR, FAR HEALTHIER
PROCESS, AS IMPERFECT AS IT
IS, THAN WHAT MISTER BOUCHARD
HAS IN MIND.
WHAT HE HAS IN MIND IS A
COMPLETE AND TOTAL FANTASY.
THERE'S NO NICE WAY, EASY
WAY, OR FRIENDLY WAY TO
BREAK UP A COUNTRY
AFTER 130 YEARS.
IT CAN'T BE DONE.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP THE
TORCH YOU PUT DOWN ON THE
TABLE A
SECOND AGO.
IF IT'S A NARROW NO VOTE AS YOU
SEEM TO BE CONFIDENT IT WILL BE.

Bob says I DON'T KNOW HOW
NARROW IT'S GOING TO BE.
I DO THINK IT'S
GOING TO BE NO.
I DON'T THINK ANY OF US KNOW
WHAT THE MOTIONS ARE GOING
TO HOLD SWAY OVER THE WEEK
END, BUT I STILL BELIEVE
ULTIMATELY IT'S
GOING TO BE NO.

Steve asks WHAT SHOULD THE
PREMIER OF ONTARIO DO
THE DAY AFTER
A NO VOTE?

Bob replies WELL, I THINK FIRST OF ALL
STEADINESS IS REQUIRED.
I THINK PREMIER HARRIS HAS
SHOWN IT, AND SHOWN GOOD
JUDGMENT IN HIS STATEMENTS
AND IN HIS APPROACH.
HE'S CERTAINLY BEEN VERY
CONSULTATIVE, FRANKLY, AS
ALL PREMIERS HAVE BEEN.
PREMIER PETERSON WAS VERY
CONSULTATIVE, PREMIER DAVIS
WAS, IN MY EXPERIENCE.
I'VE SERVED WITH BOTH OF THEM.
AND WITH PREMIER HARRIS,
I TRIED TO BE AS WELL.
I THINK THERE'S A VERY GOOD
TRADITION IN THE PROVINCE
OF PEOPLE LISTENING AND
TAKING THEIR TIME, AND
UNDERSTANDING THAT REALLY
WE ARE A CENTRAL PLAYER.

Steve says BUT I GUESS THE FEAR
IS THE DAY AFTER, LET'S SAY
IT'S 52, 53, WHATEVER,
SOMEHOW THE COUNTRY THINKS,
WHEW, WE DODGED THE BULLET,
AND NOW LIFE GOES ON.

Bob says YEAH, THAT'S
THE BIG MISTAKE.

Steve says THAT'S THE MISTAKE.

Bob continues AND THAT'S, I THINK,
SOMETHING WHICH YOU'RE RIGHT,
I THINK THERE WILL BE -- WE
HAVE THIS PROBLEM IN ENGLISH
CANADA, OR THE REST OF
CANADA, OR CANADA OUTSIDE
QUEBEC, WHATEVER PHRASE YOU
WANT TO USE, AND THAT IS
PEOPLE FRANKLY AREN'T THAT
INTERESTED IN THE CONSTITUTION.
I DON'T KNOW HOW INTERESTED
THEY ARE IN QUEBEC EITHER.
I THINK THEY'RE VERY
INTERESTED IN QUEBEC'S
RECOGNITION AND WANTING
TO AFFIRM WHAT IT MEANS
TO BE A QUEBECER.
I THINK THAT'S VERY CLEAR
FROM ALL WE'VE SEEN.
I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD
INTERPRET THAT EVERYONE WHO
VOTES YES IS A SEPARATIST.
I DON'T BELIEVE
THAT FOR A SECOND.
I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO WILL VOTE YES
BECAUSE THEY WANT TO
AFFIRM QUEBEC'S IDENTITY.
BUT THE TRICK OF LEADERSHIP,
AND PREMIER PETERSON WENT
THROUGH THIS, AND FRANKLY
I WENT THROUGH IT AS WELL,
THE DIFFICULTY OF IT IN
ONTARIO IS YOU HAVE TO
PERSUADE THE ONTARIO PUBLIC
THAT CONTINUING ACTS OF
GENEROSITY AND BROAD
PERSPECTIVE ARE REQUIRED EVEN
IN AN AREA WHERE PEOPLE ARE
NOT PARTICULARLY FOCUSSED.
I HAD TO DO IT
DURING THE RECESSION.
PREMIER PETERSON HAD TO
DO IT THROUGH MEECH LAKE.
AND I THINK THAT THE
PASSAGE OF MEECH LAKE IN
ONTARIO WAS A RELATIVELY EASY
THING THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE.
BUT I THINK WE ALL SAW THE
WAY OPINION BEGAN TO SHIFT
AWAY FROM IT.

Steve says YOU BOTH LEARNED THE HARD
WAY THERE'S NO APPETITE FOR
THAT AMONG THE POPULOUS.

Bob says THERE ISN'T.
AND THE OTHER DIFFICULTY WE
HAVE TO RECOGNIZE, TO BE
PERFECTLY REALISTIC IS WE'LL
STILL HAVE A SEPARATIST
GOVERNMENT IN QUEBEC CITY.
AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO
NEGOTIATE CONSTITUTIONAL
REFORM WITH A SEPARATIST
GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY'RE
NOT INTERESTED IN
MAKING IT WORK.
HOW DO YOU SUCCESSFULLY
CARRY OUT NEGOTIATIONS WITH
PEOPLE WHO ARE DETERMINED
TO MAKE NEGOTIATIONS FAIL?
THAT'S THE DILEMMA WE HAD...
LET'S NOT FORGET, AND LET'S
NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THE LUCIEN
BOUCHARD SCHOOL OF HISTORY,
THAT'S THE PROBLEM WE
HAD IN 1980, '81, '82.
HOW COULD YOU SUCCESSFULLY
PATRIATE THE CONSTITUTION,
EVEN WITH A PACKAGE THAT'S
RELATIVELY WELL RECEIVED
EVERYWHERE ACROSS CANADA AS
IT WAS WITH A GOVERNMENT
THAT ISN'T INTERESTED IN
THE FUTURE OF ONE CANADA.

Steve says PRECISELY.
AND I WANT TO READ YOUR
WORDS BACK TO YOU AGAIN HERE.
THE NO FORCES HAVE CERTAINLY
MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR WHAT
THE DOWNSIDE IS
OF VOTING YES.
NO PASSPORTS, AND
THAT WHOLE SPEECH.
AND YOU SAID THE OTHER DAY
IN YOUR SPEECH, YOU KNOW,
WHAT DO WE OFFER, SINCE
THERE'S BEEN NO OFFICIAL
OFFER ON THE TABLE, WHAT DO
WE OFFER IF THE PEOPLE OF
QUEBEC VOTE NO?
AND YOU SAID,
WE OFFER CANADA.
AND I GUESS FOR WHATEVER
THE POLLS ARE SAYING NOW,
40-45 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE
IN QUEBEC, THAT'S JUST
NOT GONNA CUT IT ANYMORE.

Bob says WELL BECAUSE I THINK THE
REASON PEOPLE ARE SAYING
THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH, OR
THAT'S NOT ENOUGH IS BECAUSE
OF THE FRUSTRATION OF THE
LAST FEW YEARS, AND FRANKLY
HOW THAT FRUSTRATION HAS
BEEN SUCCESSFULLY, FROM A
MEDIA PERSPECTIVE,
PORTRAYED BY MISTER BOUCHARD
AND TO SOME EXTENT
MISTER PARIZEAU.
AND I THINK WE HAVE
TO OVERCOME THAT.
I THINK WE HAVE TO
DEMONSTRATE IN THE COUNTRY
A CAPACITY
FOR SUCCESS.

Steve says PEOPLE GOING THERE
FOR THERE MARCHES,
DOES THAT
DEMONSTRATE IT?

Bob says I THINK IT
DEMONSTRATES WHAT'S VERY
REAL, AND THAT IS THERE'S
AN ENORMOUS AFFECTION
AND FEELING ABOUT CANADA.

Steve says THEY'RE
MOCKING US THOUGH.
THEY'RE MOCKING US.

Bob says NO.

Steve says OH, THEY ARE.
WATCH THE NEWS.
THEY'RE MOCKING US.

Bob says NO.
HE CAN SAY
WHAT HE LIKES.
HE'S IN A DIFFICULT
POSITION, WE'VE ALL BEEN...
AT LEAST I HAVE IN THE LAST
FEW DAYS OF A CAMPAIGN, YOU
HAVE TO DO A LOT OF THINGS
TO TRY AND ENCOURAGE YOUR
TROOPS AND TO GET...

Steve says BUT ALL THESE BUSES
GOING TO MONTREAL AND
SO ON, AND BOUCHARD IS
SAYING, OH, SUDDENLY
YOU'VE FALLEN
IN LOVE WITH US.
WHERE WERE YOU
13 YEARS AGO?

Bob says WE
WERE ALL THERE.
PEOPLE HAVE
ALWAYS BEEN THERE.
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE
SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO THE
SEPARATIST VIEW OF HISTORY.
IT'S A VERY... FRANKLY
CONTORTED VIEW.
IT'S NOT AN ACCURATE
REFLECTION OF THE FACTS.
THE FACT IS THERE HAS ALWAYS
BEEN A HUGE AFFECTION AND A
HUGE ASSOCIATION BETWEEN
FRENCH CANADA BETWEEN
QUEBEC AND ONTARIO.
THERE ARE HUGE LINKS AND
TIES BETWEEN PEOPLE,
FAMILIES, ORGANIZATIONS,
AT EVERY LEVEL.
He stresses AT EVERY LEVEL.
He continues AND TO DENY THE EXISTENCE OF
THOSE THINGS, TO SAY, WELL,
THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT, EVEN
FOR EXAMPLE THE STATEMENT
THAT WAS MADE BY A BLOC
QUEBECOIS MEMBER OF
PARLIAMENT SAYING THAT
EVERY FRANCOPHONE OUTSIDE
QUEBEC IS JUST AN
ASSIMILATED PERSON.
WELL, THAT WILL COME AS NEWS
TO THE FRANCO ONTARIANS,
AND IT DID.
AND WE HAD A VERY SUCCESSFUL
DEMONSTRATION YESTERDAY
LINKING UP THE FRANCOPHONE
COMMUNITIES OUTSIDE QUEBEC.
THIS IS A COMPLEX COUNTRY.
AND I THINK THE BIGGEST
MISTAKE THAT MISTER BOUCHARD
AND OTHERS MAKE IS THERE'S
NEVER AN EXCUSE POLITICALLY
TO LOSE YOUR PATIENCE
WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH
SOMETHING AS FUNDAMENTAL AS
THE CONSTITUTION OF A COUNTRY.
YOU SHOULD NEVER, NEVER,
LOSE YOUR PATIENCE, YOUR
SENSE OF PRUDENCE, YOUR
SENSE OF MODERATION.
THESE ARE ABSOLUTELY
ESSENTIALS FOR BUILDING
A COUNTRY.

Steve says LET ME GET BACK TO
WHAT I WAS SAYING BEFORE.
WE SORT OF THREATENED THEM
WITH THE PASSPORT ARGUMENT.
BUT WHAT HAVE WE GIVEN
THEM TO VOTE FOR?
I KNOW THE PRIME MINISTER IN
RECENT DAYS HAS SAID, OKAY,
DISTINCT SOCIETY, YES.
OKAY, NO MORE CONSTITUTIONAL
CHANGES WITHOUT YOUR SAY SO.

Bob says BUT YOU'RE FALLING
INTO THE TRAP, STEVE,
OF IN A SENSE SAYING,
LET'S START NEGOTIATIONS NOW.
HERE, LET'S OFFER
THEM SOMETHING.
LET'S PUT SOMETHING
TOGETHER.
LET'S COBBLE TOGETHER
SOMETHING AND THROW IT IN
FRONT OF THEM AND
SAY, THERE YOU ARE.
I THINK THAT WOULD CAUSE
EVEN GREATER SENSE OF SCORN.
IN FACT, MISTER BOUCHARD EVEN
SAID, YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED,
I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE SAID
IN ENGLISH BECAUSE I
WATCHED THE FRENCH ON
WEDNESDAY NIGHT, IN FRENCH
HE SAID, YOU KNOW, IN
RESPONSE TO THE VARIOUS
EFFORTS THAT ARE BEING
MADE TO SHOW A DEGREE OF
OPENNESS TO QUEBEC, HE
SAID, WELL, LOOK HOW MUCH
WE'VE SUCCEEDED IN GETTING
THEM TO BEND EVEN NOW
BEFORE THE REFERENDUM.
IMAGINE HOW MUCH THEY'LL
BEND, AND HOW MUCH THEY'LL
GIVE US AFTER A YES VOTE.
SO I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY
IMPORTANT TO KEEP THE FOCUS
ON THE FACT THAT THIS IS A
REFERENDUM QUESTION WHICH IS
BEING PROPOSED BY A
GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WANT
TO BREAK UP THE COUNTRY.
I DID A TELEVISION SHOW THE
OTHER NIGHT AND SOMEONE SAID,
OH, NO, DON'T USE
THE WORD 'SEPARATION'.
WE DON'T WANT TO SEPARATE,
WE WANT TO BECOME AN
INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.
I FEEL LIKE SAY, SORT OF
LIKE SAYING, NO, NO, DEAR,
DON'T USE THE WORD DIVORCE.
I DON'T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE,
I JUST WANT TO LEAVE YOU.
I NO LONGER WANT TO BE
MARRIED, AND I WANT TO
LIVE ON MY OWN.

Steve laughs.

Bob continues BUT DON'T USE
THE DIVORCE WORD.
SEPARATION IS SEPARATION,
YOU'RE BREAKING UP A COUNTRY.
YOU CAN'T CREATE AN
INDEPENDENT QUEBEC WITHOUT
BREAKING UP CANADA.
CAN'T BE DONE.

Steve says LET ME GET BACK TO YOUR
I CANNOT IMAGINE CANADA
WITHOUT QUEBEC.
MICHAEL BLISS, THE HISTORIAN
FROM U of T WAS IN HERE THE
OTHER NIGHT AND ADMITTEDLY
HE USED WHAT HE LATER
REALIZED WAS AN UNFORTUNATE
ANALOGY, BUT LET ME SAY IT
AGAIN ANYWAY.
HE BASICALLY DESCRIBED THIS
AS THE AMPUTATION OF A LIMB.
AND WITH THE OBVIOUS
REFERENCES TO MONSIEUR
BOUCHARD HERE, IT WAS
UNFORTUNATE, BUT HIS POINT
WAS THE BODY SURVIVES.
YOU CAN LOSE A LIMB, AND IT
HURTS, BUT THE BODY WILL
SURVIVE, AND IT
DOESN'T MEAN THE END.
IT DOESN'T MEAN -- IT MEANS
YOU WILL BE ABLE TO IMAGINE
A CANADA WITHOUT
QUEBEC SOMEDAY.
MAYBE YOU CAN'T TODAY,
BUT YOU WILL SOMEDAY.
WHAT DO YOU
THINK OF THAT?

Bob says WELL, TO ME IT'S A QUESTION
OF -- I DON'T WANT TO
SPECULATE ON IT, BUT IT'S A
QUESTION OF HOW MUCH PAIN
AND HOW MUCH DAMAGE
WILL BE DONE?
PROFESSOR BLISS, GOD BLESS
HIM, WILL NOT BE THE ONE WHO
WILL HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO
FOLKS WHY THEY DON'T HAVE
JOBS, AND WHY THEY DON'T
HAVE WORK, AND WHY THE
DOLLAR'S DONE WHATEVER
IT'S DONE, AND WHY THE
ARRANGEMENTS HAVE CREATED
AS MUCH INSTABILITY
AS THEY HAVE.
LIFE, THE WORLD IS GOING ON
ALL THE TIME, 24 HOURS A
DAY AROUND US.
WE ARE PREOCCUPIED AND
LOOKING INWARD AND FOCUSSING
ON THESE QUESTIONS OF WHO WE
ARE AND WHAT WE ARE ALL ABOUT.
AND IF THIS PROCESS GOES ON
FOREVER, WE'LL BE FURTHER
DAMAGED AND FURTHER
INCAPABLE OF RESPONDING TO
THE NEEDS OF THE WORLD.
SO MY RESPONSE IS, SURE, I
SUPPOSE -- I MYSELF HAVE
SAID YEAH, QUEBEC CAN BE
AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.
CAN IT HAPPEN?
YES.
BUT AT A HUGE PRICE.
AT A TREMENDOUS PRICE.
AMEND A PRICE, IF I MAY SAY
SO THAT WON'T BE PAID BY
THE INTELLECTUAL CLASS.
NOT A PRICE THAT WILL BE
PAID BY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
GOING ON RADIO CANADA AND
TALKING ABOUT THE WONDERS
OF NATIONALISM.
IT'LL BE PAID BY WORKERS.
IT WILL BE PAID BY PEOPLE
WHO WILL HAVE FAR LESS
MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS, AND
IT'LL BE PAID BY PEOPLE WHO
HAVE MUCH LESS SECURITY.
IT'LL BE PAID BY PEOPLE
WHO HAVE TO PAY OFF A DEBT
WHICH WILL BE INCREASED
EXPONENTIALLY BY VIRTUE OF
THE BREAK-UP.
AND IT'LL BE PAID,
FRANKLY, BY ALL OF US.
IT'LL BE PAID BY
PEOPLE IN ONTARIO.
AND I JUST THINK THAT'S
IMPORTANT FOR US TO REMEMBER.
AND THAT'S WHY, I GUESS
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
I'M VERY CONVINCED
IT'LL BE A NO.
BECAUSE I THINK MOST
PEOPLE KNOW THAT.
INSTINCTIVELY
THEY KNOW THAT.
WHY CREATE THE UNCERTAINTY?
WHY TAKE THE RISK
WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO
IN ORDER TO
MAKE A POINT?
BUT TO ME THE DIFFICULTY IS
THAT WITH A NO, WE'RE STILL
GOING TO BE LEFT WITH THE
NEED TO COME BACK AND
RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE
UNFINISHED BUSINESS.
WE STILL HAVE A RENDEZVOUS
WITH OUR FUTURE.
AND PART OF IT REQUIRES
CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE AS
DIFFICULT AS THAT IS BECAUSE
WE HAVE TO BECOME A FULLY
MATURE COUNTRY FROM A
CONSTITUTIONAL PERSPECTIVE.
WE HAVE INSTITUTIONS
THAT STILL DON'T WORK.
WE HAVE A SENATE THAT'S
COMPLETELY DYSFUNCTIONAL.
WE HAVE ONE PROVINCE IN
PARTICULAR, THE PROVINCE OF
QUEBEC WHICH HAS A VERY
STRONG DESIRE TO HAVE ITS
IDENTITY MORE CLEARLY
AFFIRMED AND RECOGNIZED
WITHIN THE CONSTITUTION.
WE HAVE THE NEED FOR US TO,
I THINK, COME TO TERMS WITH
THE FACT WE'RE A SETTLER
COUNTRY IN WHICH WE STILL
HAVEN'T REACHED SOME REAL
UNDERSTANDINGS WITH PEOPLE
WHO WERE HERE WHEN
THE SETTLERS ARRIVED.
AND THAT RECONCILIATION
STILL HAS TO TAKE PLACE.
SO ALL THE THINGS THAT
HAVE LED TO MEECH LAKE AND
CHARLOTTETOWN
HAVEN'T GONE AWAY.
THE PEOPLE SAID NO TO
CHARLOTTETOWN, BUT AS I
TRIED TO SAY AT THE TIME,
AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE
SAID WITH MEECH LAKE, THE
UNDERLYING REASON FOR THIS
ISN'T BECAUSE POLITICIANS
WERE EVIL, OR BECAUSE WE
WERE SOMEHOW OFF IN THE
STARS, IT'S BECAUSE THERE
HAPPENS TO BE REAL PROBLEMS.
WE NOW HAVE A REAL PROBLEM
BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT BEEN
ABLE TO DEAL WITH
SOME OF THESE ISSUES.
AND THEY ARE VERY REAL.

Steve says VIOLENCE.
IF IT'S A YES VOTE, THE
CREE HAVE ALREADY MADE
ABUNDANTLY CLEAR WHAT
THEIR OPINION IS ON THIS,
BY 96 PERCENT
THEY'RE AGAINST.
PEOPLE IN MONTREAL ARE
PROBABLY GOING TO MAKE
ABUNDANTLY CLEAR WHAT THEIR
POSITION ON THIS IS AS WELL.
IF THEY CAN SEPARATE FROM
QUEBEC, AND STAY PART OF
CANADA, THEY PROBABLY WOULD.
WHAT OBLIGATION -- CAN YOU
SEE A VIOLENT SCENARIO
COMING OUT OF THIS WHERE,
YOU KNOW WHAT IF IT'S A YES
VOTE, DO WE HAVE TO SEND
TROOPS INTO MONTREAL TO
PROTECT THE
ANGLOPHONE MINORITY?
WOULD WE HAVE TO SEND TROOPS
UP NORTH TO BREAK UP WHAT
WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE
VIOLENT CONFRONTATIONS
BETWEEN THE SQ AND
THE CREE NATION?

Bob says I DON'T THINK IT'S HELPFUL
BECAUSE -- SOMEBODY MIGHT
BE WATCHING THIS PROGRAM, I
DON'T THINK IT'S HELPFUL...

Steve says I HOPE SOMEBODY'S
WATCHING THIS PROGRAM.

Bob continues I HOPE SOMEONE IS, TOO, BUT
I DON'T THINK IT'S HELPFUL
TO SPECULATE ON THAT.
I DON'T THINK IT'S HELPFUL
FOR ME TO SPECULATE ON THAT
BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THIS
IS THE MOMENT FOR US TO GET
INTO SORT OF
HEADLINE-MAKING.
THAT'S NOT SOMETHING
I WANT TO DO HERE.

Steve says DURING YOUR ELECTION
CAMPAIGN YOU QUOTED
ABRAHAM LINCOLN
FREQUENTLY.
AND LINCOLN WAS AT
THIS SAME CROSSROADS.
WELL, YOU KNOW THE
DECISION HE CAME TO.
HE SAID, IF WE HAVE TO GO TO
WAR TO KEEP THE SOUTH IN,
WE'LL DO THAT.

Bob says WELL, I THINK CANADIANS WILL
WANT TO RESOLVE WHATEVER
DISPUTES WE HAVE, OR
DIFFERENCES WE HAVE PEACEFULLY.
BUT THAT DOESN'T
MEAN IT'LL BE EASY.
I THINK WE SHOULD -- I THINK
EVERYBODY SHOULD KEEP
A COOL AND CALM AND
STEADY APPROACH.
I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE
NECESSARY PRECISELY BECAUSE
THE EMOTIONS INVOLVED
ARE SO STRONG.
I MEAN FOR SOME REASON, I
ALWAYS FIND IT IRONIC THAT
THE SEPARATISTS, MISTER
BOUCHARD IN PARTICULAR,
WHO HAS GIVEN A VERY
EMOTIONAL LAST FEW WEEKS,
SEEMS TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR
UNDERSTANDING OF THE
EMOTIONS OF QUEBECERS, AND
OF HIS OWN EMOTIONS AS A
HUMAN BEING, SEEMS TO HAVE
VERY LITTLE ABILITY TO
UNDERSTAND OTHER PEOPLE
HAVE EMOTIONS, TOO, AND
OTHER PEOPLE HAVE FEELINGS,
TOO, OTHER PEOPLE HAVE A
SENSE OF IDENTITY, AS WELL.
AND I THINK THIS IS ONE
OF THE REAL TRAGEDIES IS
THERE'S SUCH A TREMENDOUS
MISUNDERSTANDING, AND UNDER
ESTIMATION OF THE FEELINGS
THAT RUN ON BOTH SIDES.
I THINK FOR A SIGNIFICANT
PERIOD OF TIME, I THINK
CANADIANS UNDERESTIMATED
THE DESIRE OF QUEBECERS TO
BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT THEY
ARE, AND TO HAVE THEIR
IDENTIFY AFFIRMED
IN THE CONSTITUTION.
AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
SAID THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT.
OR THEY KNOW I'M
IMPORTANT, TOO.
OR IF HE'S DISTINCT,
THEN I'M DISTINCT.
PEOPLE TENDED TO BELITTLE
IT, OR TRIVIALIZE IT.
AND THAT'S PROVEN, TO BE, I
THINK, A VERY COSTLY MISTAKE
THAT PEOPLE HAVE MADE.
BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, I'D
JUST SAY BRIEFLY I REALLY DO
THINK MISTER BOUCHARD IS
UNDERESTIMATING THE
EMOTIONS INVOLVED.
THERE ARE GOING TO BE VERY,
VERY, POWERFUL FEELINGS.

Steve says I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY,
PREMIER, WE'VE GOT A
COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT.
THERE ARE ABOUT A HUNDRED
THOUSAND PEOPLE WATCHING YOU
RIGHT NOW, AND WE DO
HAVE VIEWERS IN QUEBEC.
WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE WHEN WE
DO PHONE CALL SHOWS, THEY
CALL FROM QUEBEC, AND WE
HAD THAT EXPERIENCE THE
OTHER NIGHT.
14, 15, 16 PERCENT
OF THE PEOPLE STILL SAY
THEY ARE UNDECIDED.
TAKE A COUPLE OF MINUTES
AND TALK TO THEM.
WHAT DO YOU
WANT TO SAY?

Bob says WHAT I WOULD SAY TO PEOPLE
WHO ARE UNDECIDED IS QUITE
SIMPLY THIS, WE'VE DONE
SOME WONDERFUL THINGS
TOGETHER AS A COUNTRY.
LET'S NOT FORGET THOSE IN
THE EMOTION OF THE MOMENT.
THERE'S NO EASY WAY OR
PLEASANT WAY TO BREAK UP
A COUNTRY.
AND, FUNDAMENTALLY, THE
PROJECT OF THOSE WHO ARE
ASKING YOU TO VOTE YES IS
TO BREAK UP THE COUNTRY.
THERE ARE A GREAT MANY
PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE
UNDECIDED WHO STILL WANT TO
GIVE QUEBEC ITS POSITION,
OR STRENGTHEN ITS
NEGOTIATING POSITION.
ULTIMATELY, WE HAVE
STILL TO DEAL WITH THE
CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE, WITH
MAKING CANADA A BETTER
PLACE, WITH MAKING SURE
ALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY,
INCLUDING QUEBEC, FEEL
FULLY AT HOME WITHIN
THE CONSTITUTION.
WE
HAVE
TO DO THAT.
BUT A YES VOTE WILL
NOT MAKE THAT EASIER.
A YES VOTE WILL MAKE IT FAR
MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE WHAT
A YES WILL DO IS TO CREATE
HUGE UNCERTAINTY, AND
TREMENDOUS EMOTIONAL
DIFFERENCES AROUND THE
COUNTRY, WHICH I DON'T
KNOW WHETHER WE CAN MANAGE
THOSE OR NOT.
I DON'T THINK WE CAN.
AND WHAT'S MORE, WE
KNOW MISTER BOUCHARD AND
MISTER PARIZEAU WILL INTERPRET
A YES VOTE NOT AS A MANDATE
SIMPLY FOR NEGOTIATIONS,
NOT AS A MANDATE TO
STRENGTHEN QUEBEC'S
POSITION WITHIN CANADA,
BUT TO LEAD QUEBEC
OUT OF CANADA.
AND THAT WILL HAVE
CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE VERY
REAL, VERY PRACTICAL, VERY
DIFFICULT AND VERY PAINFUL.
AND I DON'T THINK QUEBECERS
SHOULD PAY THAT PRICE.
I DON'T THINK ANY OF US
SHOULD BE ASKED TO PAY THAT
PRICE BECAUSE IT'S NOT
NECESSARY TO DO SO.
AND THAT'S WHY A NO IS THE
WISER COURSE, THE BETTER
COURSE, THE COURSE I THINK
MORE CLEARLY AFFIRMS THE
SELF-INTERESTS OF QUEBECERS,
AND THE SELF-INTEREST OF
ALL CANADIANS IN
THE DAYS AHEAD.

Steve says WE THANK YOU FOR TAKING
THE TIME TO BE HERE TODAY.

Bob says THANK YOU.

Steve says BON CHANCE.

Bob says A TOUT LE MONDE.

Steve says LET'S CONCLUDE OUR
DISCUSSION OF THE
REFERENDUM WITH THE
REFLECTIONS OF SOMEONE ELSE
WHO HAS SEEN HIS SHARE OF
CONSTITUTIONAL STRUGGLES.
FORMER LIBERAL PREMIER DAVID
PETERSON, WHO HELPED COBBLE
TOGETHER THE MEECH LAKE
ACCORD IN 1990, AND WATCHED
HIS WORK COLLAPSE UNDER THE
WEIGHT OF ANOTHER NATIONAL
UNITY CRISIS.

A clip plays.

Sitting in an office, Peterson says IF THERE'S A YES VOTE,
IT'S GOING TO BE
EXTRAORDINARILY SERIOUS.
IT WILL BE MAYHEM.
NO ONE IS EMPOWERED TO SPEAK
FOR SO-CALLED 'THE REST'
OF CANADA.
THE PRIME MINISTER WOULD
BE DE FACTO CHARGED WITH
TRYING TO PICK UP
THE PIECES OF THIS.
YOU COULD ANTICIPATE THAT
THE PQ WOULD READ THIS THAT
THEY HAVE THE MORAL
AUTHORITY TO SEPARATE.
IF THEY CAN'T NEGOTIATE
SOMETHING THEY COULD VERY
WELL DO A UNILATERAL
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.
I THINK IT'S A VERY, VERY,
VERY MESSY SCENARIO.
A CLOSE VOTE DOES NOT
RESOLVE THIS PROBLEM
FOREVER AND FOREVER
AND FOREVER.
ON THE CONTRARY, THIS
PROBLEM HAS ALWAYS BEEN
WITH US, AND ALWAYS
WILL BE WITH US.
AND WE'VE GOT TO FIND
NEW WAYS OF MAKING THIS
COUNTRY WORK.
AND ESSENTIALLY THAT'S BASED
ON GOODWILL AND RESPECT FOR
EACH OTHER AND A RECOGNITION
WE'RE BETTER OFF TOGETHER
THAN ALONE.
IT MAY BE ONE OF THOSE
SITUATIONS WHERE WE COME SO
CLOSE UP AGAINST THE EDGE OF
THE ABYSS, AND THERE'S SOME
KIND OF EPIPHANY WHERE WE
LOOK AT OURSELVES AND SAY
WHY HAVE WE ALLOWED
OURSELVES TO GET INTO THIS?

The clip ends.

Music plays and the end credits roll.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1995, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #41