Transcript: Show #40 | Oct 22, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
A PROMISE IS A PROMISE.

A clip plays.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "June 15, 1995."

A Male Premier says THE TAX CUTS WILL
COME NO MATTER WHAT
OR I WILL RESIGN.

Steve says THE PREMIER STICKS
TO HIS TAX CUT PLEDGE.

The caption changes to "October 18, 1995."

The Male Premier says YES, IT'S WHAT
WE RAN ON.
IT'S WHAT WE COMMITTED TO,
AND IT'S WHAT WE WILL DO.

Steve says BUT WHAT
WILL THAT MEAN
FOR THE ONTARIO
ECONOMY?

The clip ends.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark green jacket over a gray sweater.

Steve says GOOD EVENING,
EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR BEING WITH US
FOR ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
SO, IS THE TAX
CUT COMING OR NOT?
SOMEHOW A BUZZ GOT AROUND
QUEEN'S PARK THIS WEEK
THAT THE PC GOVERNMENT
WAS CONSIDERING
DROPPING ITS PROMISE TO CUT
PROVINCIAL INCOME TAX
RATES BY 30 PERCENT.
THE STORY WENT
LIKE THIS:
THE ECONOMY IS
IN BAD SHAPE,
PROVINCIAL REVIEWS
ARE ALREADY DOWN,
SO MAYBE THE TAX CUT
WILL HAVE TO BE DELAYED.
IN A MOMENT, WE'LL TALK
ABOUT THE POLITICS
OF CUTTING TAXES WITH OUR
QUEEN'S PARK WATCHERS
AND GET THE VIEWS OF TWO
PROMINENT ECONOMISTS
ON WHETHER THE TAX CUTS
SHOULD BE DELAYED.
BUT FIRST, HERE'S A
REMINDER OF WHAT THE TORIES
PROMISED DURING THE SUMMER
ELECTION CAMPAIGN
AND HOW SOME OF THIS DRAMA
PLAYED ITSELF OUT
AT THE LEGISLATURE
THIS WEEK.

A clip plays.

The Male Premier says THE TAX CUTS WILL COME
NO MATTER WHAT
OR I WILL RESIGN.

The caption changes to "Bob Rae. NDP Leader. October 18." Bob is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with white hair.

In the Legislature, Bob says IS THE PREMIER SAYING
THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT
IS HAPPENING ON THE
REVENUE SIDE,
REGARDLESS OF WHAT TAKES
PLACE IN THE ECONOMY,
THAT REGARDLESS OF ANY
OTHER EVENTS THAT
MAY TAKE PLACE, THE
COMMITMENTS THAT ARE MADE
ARE SIMPLY NOT GOING TO
BE CHANGED?
IS THAT WHAT THE
PREMIER IS SAYING?

The Male Premier says IF WE WANT JOBS
IN THIS PROVINCE,
AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT AND
THAT'S WHAT WE WERE ELECTED
FOR, WE MUST ENCOURAGE
CONSUMER CONFIDENCE.
NOTHING WILL DO THAT BETTER
THAN GETTING OUR PERSONAL
INCOME TAX RATES MORE
IN LINE WITH OTHER
JURISDICTIONS AND
PUT THOSE DOLLARS
IN THE HANDS
OF PEOPLE.
THEY WILL IN TURN
CREATE THE JOBS.
THE ANSWER QUITE
SIMPLY IS YES.
IT'S WHAT WE RAN ON.
IT'S WHAT WE COMMITTED TO,
AND WHAT'S WE WILL DO.

[applause]

The clip plays.

Back in the studio, Steve says SOME SAY ONTARIO IS HEADING
INTO ANOTHER RECESSION
AFTER TWO CONSECUTIVE
QUARTERS OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK
INSIDE OUR FACT FILE
AT SOME OF THE KEY
ECONOMIC INDICATORS.
THE LATEST FIGURES SHOW
UNEMPLOYMENT IS DOWN,
BUT SO ARE HOUSING STARTS.
NOW, IF WE FLIP THAT,
ALAN, THERE WE GO,
RETAIN SALES ARE UP AND
JUST THIS WEEK NEW FIGURES
OUT SHOW A SIGNIFICANT
IMPROVEMENT IN EXPORTS,
HOWEVER IMPORTS ARE ALSO
UP AND SO IS INFLATION,
ALL UP.
THOSE FIGURES
COURTESY STATSCAN,
THE ONTARIO
MINISTRY OF FINANCE,
AND THE CANADIAN MORTGAGE
AND HOUSING CORPORATION.

A slate shows a red diamond that reads "Fact File." The diamond opens and the slate changes to feature the information metioned.

Steve continues OKAY, WITH US NOW, TWO
ECONOMISTS WHO MAY BE ABLE
TO HELP US MAKE SOME SENSE
OUT OF ALL OF THIS
AND HOW TORY ECONOMIC POLICY
WILL AFFECT OUR ECONOMY.
HERE IN THE STUDIO,
CARLOS LEITAO,
AN ECONOMIST WITH THE
ROYAL BANK OF CANADA,
AND ON THE LINE FROM
OTTAWA IS MIKE McCRACKEN
WHO'S THE CHAIRMAN OF
INFORMETRICA.
WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.
MIKE, LET ME START
WITH YOU IN OTTAWA.
IF THE TAX CUT GOES AHEAD,
THE 15 PERCENT INCOME
TAX RATE REDUCTION COMING
IN THE SPRING BUDGET,
WHAT'LL THAT DO THE
ECONOMY IN YOUR JUDGMENT?

Michael McCracken is in his sixties, clean-shaven with side-parted gray hair. He’s wearing a gray suit, striped white shirt and patterned dark blue tie.

Michael says WELL, IF THIS THE ONLY
THAT THEY'RE DOING,
A TAX CUT MOVES IN
THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

The caption changes to "Ottawa. Michael McCracken. Chairman, Informetrica."

Michael continues IT DOES PUT MONEY
IN PEOPLE'S HANDS.
THEY DO SPEND IT.
THAT CREATES JOBS, AND
CERTAINLY IF THE ONLY THING
PREMIER HARRIS WAS DOING
WAS CUTTING TAXES,
I SUSPECT HE'D HAVE
WIDESPREAD SUPPORT
FOR THAT MOVE AS A
STIMULATIVE ACTIVITY.
BUT FOR EVERY BILLION
DOLLARS OF TAXES
THAT YOU CUT, YOU MIGHT GET
SOMETHING ON THE ORDER
OF ABOUT 10,000 JOBS CREATED
IN CANADA, ABOUT 7,000
OF THOSE IN ONTARIO.
THAT CONTRASTS WITH
EVERY BILLION DOLLARS
OF EXPENDITURE CUTS WHICH
COST YOU, LET'S SAY,
ON THE ORDER OF 20,000 OR
MORE JOBS PER BILLION,
AND IN ONTARIO
SOMETHING, LET'S SAY,
ON THE ORDER OF
ABOUT 16,000.
SO THE POWER TO COST
JOBS IS ABOUT TWICE
FOR EXPENDITURE CUTS THAN
THESE TAX CUTS GIVE YOU,
AND THAT'S THE
PROBLEM, YOU SEE.

Steve says LET ME PUT THE SAME
QUESTION TO YOU, CARLOS.
IF THE TAX CUTS GO
AHEAD, HOW WILL IT
MANIFEST ITSELF
IN THE ECONOMY?

Carlos Leitao is in his early fifties, with a black moustache and gray hair. He’s wearing glasses, a dark blue suit, pale blue shirt and patterned tie.

Carlos says I WOULD GENERALLY AGREE
WITH WHAT MIKE HAS SAID.

The caption changes to "Carlos Leitao. Economist, Royal Banck."

Carlos continues IF TAX CUTS WERE
THE ONLY THING,
THAT WOULD HAVE A POSITIVE
IMPACT ON THE ECONOMY.
HOWEVER, I THINK
THE BIGGER PROBLEM
IN ONTARIO IS ALSO A
SIGNIFICANT DEFICIT QUESTION.
SO THEREFORE, YOU CANNOT
JUST LOWER INCOME TAXES.
YOU ALSO NEED TO CUT
SPENDING TO MAINTAIN
THE DEFICIT ON THE
DOWNWARD TRACK.

Steve says DO YOU WORRY ABOUT
PROVINCIAL REVENUES
BEING TOO LOW, THOUGH,
IF THE TAX CUT COMES IN,
IF IT GOES AHEAD
AS PLANNED?

Carlos says I WORRY MORE ABOUT THE
PROVINCIAL DEFICIT.
NOW, THE MIX OF TAX
CUTS, SPENDING CUTS,
THAT'S MORE OF A POLITICAL
ISSUE THAN AN ECONOMIC
ISSUE, I WOULD THINK.
BUT I THINK THAT FROM SAY A
RATING AGENCY POINT OF VIEW,
FROM A FINANCIAL
MARKETS POINT OF VIEW,
THE KEY THING TO
WATCH IS THE DEFICIT.
IF THE DEFICIT CONTINUES
TO GO ON A DOWNWARD TRACK,
I THINK, NOW THERE WOULD
BE NO SIGNIFICANT
ADVERSE REACTION FROM
FINANCIAL MARKETS.
IF ON THE OTHER HAND WE
SEE THE DEFICIT GO BACK UP
AGAIN, THEN WE COULD HAVE
A COUPLE OF SURPRISES.

Steve says OKAY.
WE'VE GOT LOTS OF NUMBER
CRUNCHERS HERE WHO
ARE GOING TO GET INTO
THIS WITH US,
SO LET ME ALSO INTRODUCE
HUGH MACKENZIE,
OUR REGULAR NDP PANELIST
WHO IS WITH THE STEEL WORKERS.
WAS AN ADVISER
TO PREMIER RAE,
AND SPENT A LOT OF TIME
ON THE FAIR TAX
COMMISSION AS WELL.
SO YOU KNOW
THE NUMBERS.

Steve sits with three panelists and a guest around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve continues PATRICK GOSSAGE IS HERE
WHO RUNS A SMALL BUSINESS.
CREATOR OF
EMPLOYMENT.

Patrick Gossage is in his late forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing glasses, gray suit, cream shirt and light orange tie with patterns.

Patrick says CREATOR OF EMPLOYMENT!

The panelists laugh.

Steve continues CREATOR OF EMPLOYMENT,
LEST WE NOT FORGET,
AN HONEST TO GOODNESS
SMALL BUSINESS PERSON,
LIBERAL INSIDER, THANK
YOU FOR BEING HERE.
AND LARRY GROSSMAN IS
HERE, FORMER TORY CABINET
MINISTER, INCLUDING
TREASURER FOR A TIME
IN THE EARLY '80s, SO
LARRY IS WELL AWARE
OF THE NUMBERS,
AS WELL.
IT'S A 5 BILLION DOLLARS
PROMISE WE'RE TOLD.
YOU CUT THE INCOME
TAX RATES BY 30 PERCENT,
IT'S A 5 BILLION DOLLARS PROMISE,
AND YOU SAY MORE THAN 5 DOLLARS.
HOW DO YOU BALANCE THE
BUDGET IF YOU'RE FOREGOING
5 BILLION DOLLARS IN REVENUE?

Hugh Mackenzie is in his forties, clean-shaven with receding hair. He’s wearing round glasses, a gray suit, white shirt and patterned brown and blue tie.

Hugh says YOU DON'T, AND
THAT'S THE POINT.

The caption changes to "Hugh Mackenzie. Former Aide to Bob Rae."

Hugh continues UNFORTUNATELY THE MIX OF
HOW YOU DEAL WITH -
WHATEVER YOU DECIDE
TO DO WITH THE DEFICIT,
THE MIX THAT YOU TAKE, HOW
YOU BALANCE THE TAX SIDE
WITH THE EXPENDITURE SIDE,
DOES MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE
IN THE ECONOMY.
AND AS MIKE HAS POINTED
OUT REALLY CLEARLY,
WHEN YOU DO DAMAGE ON
THE EXPENDITURE SIDE,
WHEN YOU CUT BACK
ON EXPENDITURES,
YOU ACTUALLY
DAMAGE THE ECONOMY.
AND YOU BALANCE THAT
ON THE TAX SIDE,
YOU ACTUALLY
DAMAGE THE ECONOMY,
AND SO IT
DOES MATTER.
AND THE WORRY THAT A
LOT OF US HAVE, I THINK,
IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS
GOING TO DIG US INTO A HUGE
HOLE WITH THIS TAX CUT THAT
THEY'LL ONLY BE ABLE TO
CLIMB OUT OF BY CUTTING
EVEN MORE ON THE
EXPENDITURE SIDE, WHICH IS
GOING TO HAVE A NEGATIVE
ECONOMIC IMPACT.

Steve says HOW ABOUT THIS AS
A POSSIBILITY?
HOW ABOUT, IF YOU LOWER
THE INCOME TAX RATES,
PEOPLE MIGHT ACTUALLY
RESPECT THE TAX SYSTEM RATE
MORE AND YOU WON'T LOSE
AS MUCH AS YOU THINK
YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE.
IS THAT POSSIBLE?

Carlos says THAT'S CERTAINLY AT LEAST ONE
ISSUE THAT THE INCOME TAX
RATES IN ONTARIO ARE ABOVE
THE COMPARABLE RATES
IN OUR MOST STRONGEST
COMPETITION,
WHICH IS THE U.S.
TAX RATES IN ONTARIO
ARE LOWER THAN QUEBEC,
BUT REALLY THE COMPETITION
IS REALLY THE U.S.
SO IF YOU DO LOWER INCOME
TAX RATES IN ONTARIO,
YOU COULD EXPECT SOME SORT
OF A STIMULATIVE IMPACT
ON THE ECONOMY OF PEOPLE
SPENDING MORE AND LESS
TAX EVASION IS POSSIBLE.

Hugh says THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE
ISSUE, IN THAT IT'S TRUE,
YOU MAKE THESE TAX
COMPARISONS AND ONTARIO'S
TAXES ARE HIGHER THAN TAXES
IN THE UNITED STATES.
WE ALSO HAVE BETTER PUBLIC
SERVICES THAN THEY HAVE
IN THE UNITED STATES.
AND AT SOME POINT THIS
ILLUSION THAT'S BEING SPUN,
THAT WE CAN HAVE CANADIAN
SERVICES AND AMERICAN TAXES
IS GOING TO EVAPORATE.
YOU JUST CAN'T DO
THE TWO THINGS
AT THE SAME TIME.

Steve says SORRY, MIKE, GIVE ME
ONE SECOND HERE.
WHEN YOU WERE TREASURER,
DIDN'T YOU KNOW
THAT EVERY TIME YOU
RAISED INCOME TAXES,
YOU WEREN'T GOING TO GET
AS MUCH AS YOU THOUGHT
YOU WOULD BECAUSE MORE
PEOPLE WOULD DROP OUT OF
THE OFFICIAL ECONOMY AND GO
INTO THE UNDERGROUND ECONOMY?
I'M ASSUMING
THAT'S A GIVEN.

Larry Grossman is in his fifties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a navy suit, white shirt, patterned tie and a pair of glasses.

Larry says WELL, THAT IS A GIVEN
BUT I HAVE TO POINT OUT
I WOULDN'T KNOW BECAUSE I
NEVER RAISED TAXES.

The caption changes to "Larry Grossman. Former P.C. Treasurer."

[laughing]

Larry continues WELL, THAT'S
JUST THE FACT.
YOU HAVE TO ASK THE
LIBERALS BECAUSE THEY RAISED -

Steve says YOU DID RAISE
OHIP PREMIUMS,
LET'S REMEMBER THAT.

Larry says NO, SIR.

Steve says NO, SIR?

Larry says NO, SIR.

Hugh says THAT
WAS THE TREASURER.

Larry says NO, NO, WHEN I
WAS TREASURER,
I DID NOT
RAISE TAXES.
ANYWAY, BUT THE ECONOMIC
ANALYSIS A TREASURER
IS SHOWN BEFORE A BUDGET
REFLECTS EVERYTHING
THAT'S BEEN SAID HERE,
THAT EXACTLY RIGHT.
THE BIG QUESTION,
I THINK, IS THIS.
PEOPLE DON'T DENY
WHAT'S BEEN SAID HERE.
THE PROBLEM IS, EVERY
MINISTER OF FINANCE SITS
DOWN AT EVERY POINT OF
EVERY ECONOMIC CYCLE
AND CAN CONCLUDE FOR
THESE SAME REASONS
THAT THIS ISN'T
THE RIGHT TIME.
IT IS NEVER THE RIGHT
TIME, ONE COULD ARGUE,
FOR CUTTING
GOVERNMENT SPENDING.
AND BECAUSE YOU CAN NEVER
IDENTIFY THE RIGHT TIME,
BECAUSE IT COSTS JOBS, YOU
GET YOURSELF INTO THE
KIND OF HOLE THAT CANADIAN
GOVERNMENTS ARE IN TODAY.
SO IF YOU DON'T
DEAL WITH IT NOW,
INCLUDING THE TAX CUT, THEN
YOU'RE JUST GOING TO
PAY THE PIPER EVEN MORE
FIVE YEARS FROM NOW.

Patrick says I MEAN, POLITICALLY
THEY GO HAND IN HAND.
NO, POLITICALLY THE
TAX CUT, YOU KNOW,
IT'S THE PAIN
AND THE GAIN.

The caption changes to "Patrick Gossage. President, Media Profile."

Patrick continues THEY GO HAND IN HAND AND
THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS SOLD
AND THAT'S THE WAY HARRIS
SOLD TO THE PUBLIC.

Larry says BUT DON'T YOU FIND
IT INTRIGUING -

Patrick says SO I MEAN,
THEY ARE LINKED.
THEY'RE LINKED AND
HE'S STUCK WITH IT.
THE ONLY LITTLE SUN AT THE
END OF THIS DARK PERIOD
WE'RE GOING THROUGH
OF VERY FAST AND VERY
VICIOUS CUTS IS
THIS LITTLE REWARD WE'RE
ALL GOING TO GET IN THE
SUMMER AND I WOULD -
HANG ON.
ONE OTHER THING I WANTED TO
SAY IS THAT THE POLL
THAT JUST CAME OUT TODAY,
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
THE ANGUS REID POLL.
THE POLL THAT ASKED PEOPLE
HOW THEY WERE GOING TO SPEND
THEIR TAX CUTS, 85 PERCENT
OF PEOPLE SAID THEY WERE
GOING TO PAY DOWN DEBT,
AND OF COURSE WE'RE
COMING OUT OF
A RECESSION.
I WOULD LIKE TO
KNOW WHAT THE LEVEL
OF INDEBTEDNESS IS,
OKAY, AND I MEAN -
[everyone talking at once]
HANG ON, BUT
MY QUESTION IS,
WHAT DOES PAYING DOWN
DEBT DO FOR THE ECONOMY?
PERSONAL DEBT.
THAT DOESN'T
STIMULATE THE ECONOMY.
Steve says WAIT, LET'S

GET MIKE MCCRACKEN.
MIKE, GO AHEAD.

Patrick says
COME ON, MIKE.

Steve continues WE TAKE CARE OF OUR
CREDIT CARD DEBTS,
DOES THAT HELP THE
ECONOMY IN THE WAYS THAT
THE CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT HOPES?

Michael says NO, WHAT PAYING
DOWN DEBT IS,
IS A FORM OF SAVINGS AND
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SAVE,
EITHER BY PUTTING IT UNDER
YOUR MATTRESS OR PUTTING
IT IN A BANK, OR PAYING
DOWN A DEBT THAT YOU OWED
TO THE BANK IS IT IMPROVES
YOUR BALANCE SHEET,
BUT IT DOESN'T
CREATE ANY JOBS.
THERE IS NO DEMAND CREATED
AS A RESULT OF THAT.
IT DOES TAKE CARE
OF, YOU KNOW,
THE BANKS OVER EXPOSURE
ON CONSUMER DEBT.

Patrick says SO THE BANKS CAN STOP
FIRING PEOPLE
AND HIRE BACK MORE
TELLERS, MAYBE.
[laughing]

Larry says EVERYONE IS LOCKED INTO
THE SAME OLD STUFF HERE.
IT'S AS IF WHAT GOVERNMENT
DOES IN THE NEXT 12 MONTHS
WILL HEAL THE ECONOMY,
WHETHER THEY COST
A FEW THOUSAND CIVIL
SERVICE JOBS,
OR WHETHER DEBT IS PAID
DOWN TO THE BANKS,
AND THAT ISN'T WHAT THIS
HAS GOTTA BE ALL ABOUT.
NO, THIS IS ALL ABOUT
DEALING WITH THE ECONOMIC
FUNDAMENTALS, THE
BUSINESS FUNDAMENTALS,
WHICH WILL HELP THE ECONOMY
RIGHT ITSELF OVER
THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
LORD KNOWS.

Mike says HOPEFULLY
BY THE END OF THE ELECTION
PERIOD OR BY THE
NEXT ELECTION.

Larry says WELL, BECAUSE THAT WILL
REMOVE SOME POLITICAL
CONSIDERATIONS OUT
OF THE EQUATION,
BUT I THINK THE
ECONOMISTS HERE, I HOPE,
WOULD AGREE WITH ME, THAT
BUSINESS FUNDAMENTALS
IN CANADA WOULD BE A LOT
STRONGER HAD CANADA
AND ONTARIO NOT
BUILT UP HUGE DEBT
OVER THE LAST
10 OR 15 YEARS.
CARLOS WANTS IN.

Carlos says YEAH, THE PROBLEM THERE,
YOU ARE CERTAINLY RIGHT.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE
TO KEEP IN MIND ABOUT
ONTARIO IS THAT, YOU
KNOW, THERE'S ABOUT
8, 9 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
OF INTEREST PAYMENTS,
SO THAT CONSTRAINS
WHAT GOVERNMENTS
CAN DO IN ONTARIO.
THE OTHER THING IS ABOUT
THIS BUSINESS OF BEING
IN A RECESSION OR NOT.
I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE A
LITTLE BIT CAREFUL
AND NOT GOING JUST
LOOKING AT THE MIRROR,
THE MIRROR IN THE REAR,
RIGHT DRIVE MIRROR.
IF WE ARE INDEED
IN A RECESSION,
THAT HAS ALREADY
PASSED.
I THINK THE THIRD QUARTER,
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY
THE FOURTH QUARTER OF 1995,
WILL SEE US EMERGE FROM
THIS PERIOD OF SLOW GROWTH
OR RECESSION, AND BY 1996,
WE DO EXPECT SOME
PRETTY DECENT GROWTH
IN ONTARIO AND IN
CANADA.

Steve says WHAT'S DECENT?

Carlos says IN OUR SHOP WE'RE SAYING
AROUND 2.5 TO 3 PERCENT GROWTH.

Steve says THAT'S PRETTY
MEDIOCRE, ISN'T IT?
ISN'T THAT PRETTY MEDIOCRE,
2.5 TO 3 PERCENT GROWTH?

Carlos says BUT COMING FROM WHERE
WE'VE JUST COME FROM,
IT'S I GUESS THE
BEST WE CAN DO.

Steve says ALL THE NUMBERS IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
ARE BASED ON HIGHER
GROWTH RATE - YEAH.

Hugh says
SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER
THAN THE NUMBERS IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.

Larry says WELL, THAT'S TRUE, BUT LET
US ALL KEEP IN MIND WHEN
WE TALK ABOUT THIS
ALLEGEDLY ENORMOUS TAX CUT,
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT,
LET'S CALL IT 5 BILLION DOLLARS
FOR THE MOMENT, ON A 45
BILLION, 50 BILLION DOLLARS BUDGET,
OVER FIVE YEARS.
I MEAN, THE 5 BILLION DOLLARS TAX
CUT IS GOING TO COME IN
STARTING IN '96 AND
FINISHING IN '99.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
GETTING 5 BILLION DOLLARS OUT
OF FOUR BUDGETS WHICH BY THEN
WILL TOTAL 200 BILLION DOLLARS.

Steve says YOU'RE SAYING,
IT'S NOT THAT MUCH MONEY.

Larry continues I MEAN, IT'S NOT GOT THE
CATACLYSMIC IMPACT
THAT PEOPLE ARE
TALKING ABOUT.
WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT THAT BEFORE.

Patrick says I THINK HE DOES HAVE THE
POLITICAL CHOICE
OF HOW TO STAGE IT.
AND I MEAN, THE PRESS MAY
SCREAM AND MY PARTY MAY
SCREAM AND THE NDP MAY
SCREAM AND HE MAY STAGE
IF DIFFERENTLY, BUT
THAT'S A ONE-DAY WONDER.

Larry says NO, APPARENTLY MISTER RAE
IS GOING TO BE CRITICAL
OF HIM IF HE
DOESN'T BREAK.
I MEAN, I'VE NEVER
SEEN THIS BEFORE.
THE OPPOSITION PARTIES
HERE ARE CRITICIZING
THE GOVERNMENT FOR
REFUSING TO BREAK
THEIR ELECTION
COMMITMENTS.
I'VE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD
IT WENT THE OTHER WAY.

Hugh says WHEN A PROMISE
DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE...

Patrick says AHHHH, WELL,
YOU'RE GOING TO BE RIGHT
WHICHEVER WAY IT GOES.

Larry says SO THE OPPOSITION
WILL BE APPLAUDING HIM
IF THEY TURN AROUND
AND INCREASE TAXES.

Steve says MIKE McCRACKEN WANTED
TO GET IN HERE.
MIKE, GO AHEAD
FROM OTTAWA.

Michael says JUST MY ONLY POINT IS, I
HOPE HE DOES CUT TAXES.
I THINK IT WOULD
BE A GOOD STIMULUS.
I'D LIKE HIM
TO DO MORE.
I'D LIKE HIM TO DO IT
ALL FRONT-END LOADED.

Steve says WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?

Michael continues YOU KNOW, DO THEM IN
THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO.
2.5 BILLION THIS YEAR
AND 2.5 BILLION NEXT,
'CAUSE WE'RE GOING TO NEED
IT TO GET ANY KIND
OF A RECOVERY
GOING IN ONTARIO.
WE MAY ALREADY BE
IN A RECESSION.
SO LET'S GO DOWN
THAT ROAD.
ONCE YOU'VE GIVEN UP
ON ELECTION PROMISES,
WHY NOT GIVE UP
ON ALL THE OTHERS?

Steve says AND BOB RAE WAS
JOKING ABOUT THIS
IN THE HOUSE THE OTHER
DAY - NO LESS THAN
THE DOMINION BOND RATING
SERVICE WHICH TELLS US WHAT -

Patrick says WHO RUNS THE
PROVINCE AND THE COUNTRY,
BY THE WAY, OUR
VIEWERS SHOULD KNOW.

Steve continues THEY SAY THAT THE 30
PERCENT TAX CUT IS
THE BIGGEST INHIBITOR RIGHT
NOW TO BALANCING THE BUDGET.

Michael says YEAH.

Steve says ARE THEY RIGHT?

Michael says JUST LET ME GIVE YOU A
SIMPLY RULE OF THUMB.
IF BAY STREET, THE BANKS,
THE BROKERAGE HOUSES,
AND THE RATING AGENCIES
DON'T LIKE SOMETHING,
IT'S PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE
THAT IT'S PROBABLY
A GOOD POLICY FOR
PEOPLE.

At the studio, everyone laughs.

Patrick says I THINK HE SHOULD
DEFEND HIMSELF.

[everyone talking at once]

Steve says BIGGEST BANK IN THE COUNTRY
OVER HERE, GO AHEAD.

Carlos says WE WOULDN'T BE IN THAT
POSITION IF WE HADN'T
ACCUMULATED CLOSE TO
100 BILLION DOLLARS OF DEBT.
SO OF COURSE, WHAT
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO DOES
MATTERS TO THE BANKS
BECAUSE NOW WE ARE HOLDING
A LOT OF GOVERNMENT
OF ONTARIO'S DEBT.

Steve says BUT I BET YOU WOULDN'T CARE
LESS IF THEY RENEGED
ON THE TAX CUT PLEDGE.
MY GUESS IF FOR YOU
GUYS AND THE BOND
RATING AGENCIES,
YOU DON'T CARE.

Carlos says AS I SAID RIGHT IN MY
OPENING STATEMENTS,
THE IMPORTANT THING TO KEEP
AN EYE ON IS THE DEFICIT.
IF THE DEFICIT IS ON
THE DOWNWARD TRACK,
THEN THAT'S FINE.
IF THE DEFICIT STARTS
TO GO BACK UP AGAIN,
THEN THAT'S
ANOTHER ISSUE.

Larry says AND I WANT TO
MAKE A DIFFERENT POINT.
IF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY
HAS A GOOD YEAR NEXT YEAR,
I DON'T KNOW WHAT -

Carlos says WHICH
WE THINK IT WILL.

Larry says I THINK THEY ARE GOOD.

Michael says LOTS
OF OPINIONS ON THAT.
BUT NO ONE KNOWS.

Larry continues COMING UP TO ELECTION
AND I EXPECT IT
WILL BE A DECENT YEAR.
I WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT'S
THE POINT AT WHICH
WE WANT TO MAKE OUR BUSINESS
FUNDAMENTALS BETTER
AND ENCOURAGE THE BUSINESSES
RIGHT AT THAT POINT
TO JUMP IN TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
OF THE GROWING AMERICAN
OPPORTUNITIES AND GET
THAT TAX CUT IN THERE.
IF INSTEAD, BECAUSE
OF THIS KIND OF,
OH THERE WAS A MILD
RECESSION IN TWO QUARTERS
IN '95, MIKE SHOULD BACK
OFF OF THIS TAX CUT AND
DELAY IT, THEN YOU WILL
HAVE MISSED - NEVER MIND
THE SHORT TERM POLITICS,
YOU WILL HAVE MISSED
THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY TO
GIVE A LITTLE BOOTSTRAP UP
TO THOSE COMPANIES RIGHT WHEN
THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY.

Patrick says IT'S A FEEL GOOD
THING IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Larry says WELL, IT'S NOT A
FEEL GOOD.
IT IS.
EVERYONE AROUND
THIS TABLE AGREED
A FEW MOMENTS AGO
THAT THE DEBT THAT
WAS ACCUMULATED
OVER THE LAST -

Patrick says YEAH, BUT
THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

Larry continues 10 OR 15 YEARS HAMPERED
OUR ABILITY TO COMPETE.
YOU MAY HAVE A WINDOW TO
COMPETE AND YOU WANT TO -

Hugh says AND THE PERFECT WAY TO
RESOLVE THE DEBT PROBLEM
IS TO INCREASE THE
DEFICIT BY 5 BILLION DOLLARS.
THAT'S GREAT.
GREAT ARITHMETIC.

Patrick says IT DOESN'T
HANG TOGETHER VERY WELL.

Larry says NO, BUT YOU'VE CREATED
WAIT A MINUTE,
YOU'VE CREATED A
COMPETITIVE PROBLEM
BECAUSE OF THIS.
NO, IT CERTAINLY ISN'T.
IF YOU'RE A SMALL BUSINESS
PERSON, LIKE PAT GOSSAGE,
YOU'RE A SMALL BUSINESS
PERSON OUT IN THE AUTO PART
SECTOR OR IN THE HIGH TECH
SECTOR AND THERE'S
AN OPPORTUNITY IN
THE UNITED STATES,
ARE YOU MORE LIKELY IN '96
IF THINGS ARE GROWING
TO JUMP IN AND RE-INVEST IF
THERE'S A TAX CUT OR NOT?
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THE
LOGICAL ANSWER IS YES.

Steve says AND THEREFORE JOBS
WILL FLOW FROM THIS,
NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

Larry says THERE'S NEVER NO
QUESTION, STEVE,
BUT THAT'S MORE LIKELY,
AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT
I MEAN, WE'RE TALKING HERE
AS IF GOVERNMENTS CREATE
ALL THE JOBS OR
COST ALL THE JOBS.
THEY CREATE THE ENVIRONMENT
WITHIN WHICH JOBS -
YOU CAN'T BE SURE BUT
IF THERE'S A ROLE FOR
GOVERNMENT AT ALL,
I WOULD ARGUE,
THEN THE ROLE IS NOT TO
BUILD A SUBWAY FROM HERE
TO ETOBICOKE SO
YOU CREATE JOBS.
THE ROLE OF
GOVERNMENT IS TO SAY,
WHEN IS THE RIGHT TIME IN
THE ECONOMIC CYCLE TO GIVE
A LITTLE BOOST IN THERE
SO THAT ALL THOSE PRIVATE
DECISION MAKERS OUT THERE
MAY DO SOMETHING
YOU'D LIKE THEM TO DO.

Patrick says ISN'T PART OF IT,
THOUGH, OF WHAT HARRIS
HAS TO DO - I MEAN,
OBVIOUSLY HE CAN'T DO WHAT
McCANN HAS DONE BECAUSE THE
ANALOGY DOESN'T REALLY WORK
VERY WELL, BUT ISN'T PART
OF WHAT HE HAS TO DO,
AND HE SAID HE'S
GOING TO DO,
IS TO MAKE ONTARIO
ATTRACTIVE FOR
NEW INVESTMENT, TO
CREATE THOSE JOBS?
ISN'T THAT PART OF IT?

Carlos says THAT'S ALSO
PART OF IT, OF COURSE.
AND THE TAX CUT WOULD
GO IN THAT DIRECTION.

Patrick says NOW DO YOU REALLY - NO,
BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THE
TAX CUT IS GOING TO
FIGURE IN PEOPLE'S PLANS
TO INVEST IN ONTARIO?
AS OPPOSED TO OTHER
JURISDICTIONS, YES.

Michael says WHERE IN CANADA ARE THEY
GOING TO GO, ALBERTA?
LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

Carlos says THEY
MIGHT GO TO MICHIGAN
IN THE STATES.

Michael continues NOT SURE YOU CAN GET
YOUR KID EDUCATED?
NOW MAYBE HE'S GOING TO GET
IT LINED UP IN ONTARIO
TO BE LIKE ALBERTA IN TERMS
OF PUBLIC SERVICES AS WELL.

Patrick says I THINK THE PUBLIC SERVICE
PLAYS A MAJOR ARGUMENT
IN TERMS OF PEOPLE SAYING
I'M NOT GOING TO GO
TO NORTH CAROLINA OR -

Carlos says OR IT
MIGHT GO TO MICHIGAN.

Patrick continues THEY MIGHT GO TO
MICHIGAN.
BUT I JUST WANT TO SAY -
AGREE WITH WHAT MIKE SAID,
THE PUBLIC SERVICE
THAT'S RUNNING WELL,
THAT'S PROVIDING GOOD
HEALTHCARE
AND GOOD EDUCATION,
IS A BIG FACTOR
IN SETTLING IN TORONTO.
IF YOU'RE STARTING TO
DISMANTLE THAT AND ALL
THE PEOPLE IN NEW YORK STATE
WHO ARE THINKING OF MOVING
UP HERE, ALL THEY SEE
IS, HEY, HOLY MOLY,
WAIT A MINUTE.
IT'S GETTING
LIKE ROCHESTER.

Michael says YOU GOT GINGRICH
WORKING FOR HIM DOWN
IN THE STATES, TOO.
HE'LL DISMANTLE MAYBE
MORE QUICKLY THAN WE DO.
WE JUST SIT BACK
AND WAIT, YOU KNOW.

Patrick says
YEAH, THAT'S TRUE.

Steve says LET ME RAISE THE ISSUE
THAT GOT THIS WHOLE THING
STARTED THIS WEEK ANYWAY,
WHICH WAS A REPORTER'S
QUESTION TO THE EFFECT OF,
IF A TAX CUT'S SUCH
A GREAT IDEA, WHY WAIT
UNTIL NEXT SPRING'S BUDGET.
WHY NOT BRING
IT IN RIGHT NOW?
THAT'S A GOOD
QUESTION.
WHAT'S THE
ANSWER TO THAT?
WHY NOT BRING IT
IN RIGHT AWAY?
LARRY, YOU'RE FORMER
TREASURER, WHY NOT?

Larry says IF YOU'RE ASKING ME, I
WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM,
AS MIKE SAID, BRINGING
IT IN RIGHT NOW,
OR LET ME PHRASE
A DIFFERENT WAY.
BRINGING IT IN AT THE
STRATEGICALLY RIGHT TIME
TO HAVE THE MAXIMUM IMPACT
ON NEW INVESTMENT, NEW JOBS.
THAT MAY BE RIGHT NOW
AND IT MAY BE
A YEAR AND A
HALF FROM NOW.

Hugh says I THINK IT WOULD BE A
GREAT IDEA TO BRING THE TAX CUT
IN THE SAME DAY THAT THEY
CUT THE WELFARE PAYMENTS
SO THAT PEOPLE COULD SEE
WHERE THE MONEY WAS GOING.

Michael says THAT'S RIGHT,
BUT AT LEAST IT WOULD GIVE
THOSE ON WELFARE SOME
HOPE THAT THERE MIGHT BE
A JOB NOW FOR THEM.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE
AROUND A YEAR FROM NOW.

Patrick says I DON’T SEE THE CONNECTION
WITH DUE RESPECT, MIKE.
I REALLY DON'T SEE IT.
WELL, I DON'T THINK
IT'S BEEN ARGUED.
I DON'T THINK IT'S
BEEN ARGUED PROPERLY.

Larry says I ARGUED THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT -
THIS GOVERNMENT,
I WOULD ARGUE,
WAS ELECTED BECAUSE IT GOT
THE MESSAGE OUT THERE
THAT IT WAS PREPARED TO
MAKE TOUGH DECISIONS,
NOTWITHSTANDING
POLITICAL PRESSURES.
AND NOW WE'VE FALLEN INTO AN
ARGUMENT ABOUT THE POLITICS
OF WHEN TO DO IT,
AND I'M TRYING TO SAY,
THIS GOVERNMENT IS SAYING
IT'S GOING TO MAKE THE
RIGHT ECONOMIC DECISIONS,
P.S., IT HOPES THE POLITICS
FALL INTO PLACE AND
SO FAR THEY HAVE,
BUT THIS SHOULD BE AN
ECONOMIC DISCUSSION.

Patrick says WELL THEN,
HUGH'S RIGHT.
THEY MIGHT AS WELL HAVE
DONE IT RIGHT AWAY
AND TAKEN THE BIT HIT.

Steve says MIKE MCCRACKEN, WOULD YOU
HAVE DONE IT RIGHT NOW?

Michael says OH, I THINK I WOULD BECAUSE
I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE STATE
OF THE ECONOMY AND THE
LACK OF A RECOVERY.
I WOULD HAVE TRIED TO GET
A NOTE FROM THE BANK
OF CANADA AND THE FEDERAL
DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE
SAYING THEY'RE NOT GOING
TO DOWNLOAD ON ME AND
NOT GOING TO RAISE INTEREST
RATES AS A RESULT
OF MY ACTION BECAUSE
THAT WAS RAE'S PROBLEM.
HE DID THE RIGHT THING BUT
HE DIDN'T HAVE A NOTE.
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE
HAVE THE SAME SITUATION
WITH HARRIS, WHATEVER HE
DOES MIGHT GET BLOWN OUT
OF THE WATER BY A FISCAL
ACTION IN THE NEXT FEDERAL
BUDGET OR BY THE
BANK OF CANADA
SO HE'S GOT TO CAUTIOUS.

Steve says SO WISER TO WAIT THEN,
CARLOS, MAYBE WISER.

Michael says WELL, BY BOTHER EVEN TRYING
IS THE OTHER SIDE OF IT.
JUST GRAB ALL YOU WANT,
RUN A BALANCED BUDGET
FOR CHRIST SAKES AND
LET THE FEDS HAVE -

[laughing]

Carlos says I WOULDN'T BE
THAT NEGATIVE.
I DO AGREE THAT PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENTS DON'T HAVE
A HUGE ROOM TO MANOEUVRE,
BUT THERE'S A NUMBER
OF THINGS THAT THEY CAN DO.
BUT YOU KNOW INTEREST RATE
POLICY IS NOT THEIR DOMAIN.
BUT I WOULD JUST ALSO
MENTION THAT THEIR ACTIONS
INDIRECTLY - ESPECIALLY
ONTARIO'S SUCH A BIG
PROVINCE - ALSO HAS AN
IMPACT ON INTEREST RATES.
IF IT IS PERCEIVED THAT THE
ONTARIO GOVERNMENT HAS LOST
CONTROL OF ITS FINANCES,
THAT SENDS OUT A MESSAGE
TO FINANCIAL MARKETS AND IT
RAISES INTEREST RATES
FOR ALL CANADIANS.

Steve says OKAY, I SUSPECT THAT I'VE
LOST CONTROL OF THIS
DISCUSSION, BUT I'M GOING
TO BRING DOWN THE GAVEL
NOW ANYWAY AND THANK MIKE
MCCRACKEN IN OTTAWA AND,
CARLOS, THANK YOU HERE IN
THE STUDIO FROM THE ROYAL
BANK FOR BEING HERE TODAY.
YOU'RE WELCOME.
APPRECIATE IT.

Michael says
MY PLEASURE.

Steve says ROUGH COUPLE OF MONTHS
INCIDENTALLY AS WE MOVE ON
FOR SOCIAL SERVICES
MINISTER DAVE TSUBOUCHI.
HE HAS BEEN RAKED OVER
THE COALS FOR SUGGESTING
WELFARE RECIPIENTS
ECONOMIZE BY BUYING .69 CENT
TUNA IN BULK AND FOR
ADVISING WOMEN TO TURN BACK
THE CLOCK AND HAVE FAMILY
RATHER THAN DAYCARE CENTRES
LOOK AFTER THEIR
CHILDREN.
THIS WEEK THINGS JUST GOT
WORSE WHEN IT WAS REVEALED
THAT THE MINISTER
MISTAKENLY CUT WELFARE
PAYMENTS TO THOUSANDS OF
THE DISABLED BECAUSE
HE HADN'T READ DOCUMENTS
BEFORE HE SIGNED THEM.
HE WAS FORCED TO EAT HUMBLE
PIE IN THE LEGISLATURE.
THE PREMIER WAS
NOT AMUSED.

A clip plays.

The caption changes to "David Tsubouchi. Social Services Minister." David is in his late forties, with a black beard and receding black hair.

David says AS THE MINISTER, I
APOLOGIZE TO THE HOUSE
AND TO THE PEOPLE OF
ONTARIO FOR THIS MISTAKE
WITH A COMMITMENT IT
WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

Giving an interview, the male Prermier says WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT
MISTAKES AND I THINK WHILE
THIS ONE, YOU KNOW, WAS
CAUGHT BY THE BUREAUCRACY
BEFORE ANY CHANGES WERE
MADE THAT AFFECTED PEOPLE,
IT'S A VERY
SERIOUS ERROR.

The clip ends.

Steve says MISTER HARRIS GOES ON TO
SAY, AND IT BETTER
NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.
AND MY QUESTION
FOR YOU, LARRY,
IS DO PREMIERS REALLY MEAN
IT WHEN THEY SAY PUBLICLY
LIKE THAT, THIS BETTER HAD
NOT HAPPEN AGAIN OR ELSE?

Larry says WELL, I THINK
THIS PREMIER DOES,
AND THE OTHER THING TO NOTE
IS THAT I CAN'T REMEMBER
ANY PREMIER OR ANY
PRIME MINISTER SAYING
IT BETTER NOT
HAPPEN AGAIN.

Steve says HE SAID IT TWICE,
ACTUALLY.
HE SAID IT ABOUT
JOHN SNOBELEN.

Larry says
THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says AND NOW HE SAID IT
ABOUT DAVE TSUBOUCHI.

Larry says SO MIKE HARRIS IS QUITE
A DIFFERENT KIND
OF LEADER THAN WE'RE
USED TO IN CANADA,
AND EVERYONE THAT'S WORKED
CLOSELY WITH HIM KNOWS
THAT HE MEANS WHAT HE
SAYS, NOT JUST EXTERNALLY.

Patrick says PARTICULARLY SINCE
AS WE WERE SAYING,
IS ONE OF THE MINISTERS
THAT, QUOTES,
ON SIDE AND THAT'S PROBABLY
WHY ONE OF THE REASONS
HE GOT HIS APPOINTMENT
IS HE'S CLOSE
TO THE PREMIER
AND HE'S LOYAL.
HE'S GOT ALL THOSE
QUALITIES AND WHEN HE
STANDS UP ON HIS FEET,
SOMETHING GOES WRONG.
THERE'S SOME
DYSFUNCTION, LARRY.

Patrick laughs.

Larry says MY POINT IS,
WHATEVER IT IS,
MISTER HARRIS HOLDS
HIS MINISTERS
RESPONSIBLE PUBLICLY.

Patrick says IT'S VERY RARE IN THE EARLY
DAYS OF A GOVERNMENT
THAT YOU ADMIT YOU MADE A
CABINET APPOINTMENT ERROR
AND FIRED SOMEBODY.
NO, BUT ALL I'M SAYING
IS, YOU FIRE SOMEBODY.
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
IS, TSK TSK.

Steve says I MEAN, THEY ONLY TOOK
OVER ON JUNE 20TH.
CAN YOU FIRE SOMEBODY AFTER
ONLY THREE OR FOUR MONTHS
IN OFFICE?
I KNOW YOU CAN, BUT I
MEAN IS IT ADVISABLE?

Hugh says I DON'T KNOW.
I THINK THE REAL
PROBLEM I THINK IS -
DO YOU WANT ME
TO DEFEND -

They laugh.

Smiling, Hugh continues I'M NOT PLANNING TO.
I THINK THERE'S A
COUPLE OF ISSUES HERE
THAT WE'RE MISSING.
ONE OF WHICH
WE'RE MISSING.
IT'S TRUE, I MEAN, HE'S
A COMPLETE KLUTZ
IN THE LEGISLATURE.

Patrick says THAT'S LIBELOUS!

Larry says I WANT TO GET
IN HERE BUT GO AHEAD.

Hugh continues HE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ABLE
TO ANSWER QUESTIONS
VERY WELL IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THAT
HE'S DEMONSTRATED AN
AMAZING INSENSITIVITY TO
THE IMPACT OF WHAT HE AND
HIS GOVERNMENT ARE DOING,
AND IF THAT'S - IF MIKE
HARRIS LOOKS AROUND FOR
SOMEBODY TO REPLACE
THAT FAILING, HE'S GOING TO
HAVE TROUBLE FINDING SOMEBODY
IN HIS CAUCUS BECAUSE ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS DEMONSTRATED
IS AN INCREDIBLE
INSENSITIVITY.
I MEAN, HE'S NOT THE ONLY
PERSON WHO SAID INSENSITIVE
THINGS ABOUT THE THINGS
THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S DOING.
EQUAL TIME FOR
GROSSMAN HERE.

Larry says YES, LET'S KEEP
FOCUSED ON THIS.
I FOR EXAMPLE DID NOT
THINK EVELYN GIGANTES
SHOULD HAVE HAD TO RESIGN
WHEN SHE BLURTED OUT
THE NAME OF SOMEONE.

Patrick says OH, I DIDN'T EITHER.
THAT WAS TOUGH.

Larry continues SHE WAS EITHER A GOOD
MINISTER OF HEALTH
OR SHE WASN'T AND IF SHE
WAS GOOD, YOU SAY, YEAH,
SHE MADE A BIG MISTAKE.

Hugh says I DIDN'T SAY HE
SHOULD BE FIRED.

Larry says NO, NO, MY POINT IS,
LET'S FOCUS ON WHETHER
HE'S A COMPETENT
MINISTER.

Steve says IS HE?

Larry says I DON'T THINK HE
HAS VARIED FROM WHAT
THE GOVERNMENT
WANTS TO HAVE DONE.
I KNOW HE'S BRIGHT.
I KNOW HE'S DEDICATED AND
BY THE WAY I KNOW DAVID.
HE HAS A BIG HEART AND
HIS HISTORY WOULD SHOW
THAT HE UNDERSTANDS
THE ISSUES OUT THERE.
ASK ME TO EXPLAIN THE TUNA
SITUATION AND THE OTHERS,
I WRITE IT DOWN TO THE KIND
OF INEXPERIENCE YOU SEE
IN NEW MINISTERS OF
ALL PARTIES EARLY ON.
I THINK THE REAL QUESTION
IN TERMS OF MEASURING
MISTER TSUBOUCHI IS HOW WELL
HE MANAGES THROUGH
THIS VERY SENSITIVE TIME,
THE NEXT 12 MONTHS,
IN TERMS OF THE REAL
IMPACTS THESE CUTS
MAY HAVE OUT THERE,
AND SECONDLY, WHETHER
HE CAN AVOID THESE
NEOPHYTE ERRORS.

Patrick says I SUSPECT THAT'S
WHAT'S BEING SAID.
I SUSPECT THAT'S
WHAT'S BEING SAID
IN THE PREMIER'S OFFICE.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW,
FIRING OFFENCES?
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, HE'S
DOING A LITTLE SABER
RATTLING AND INDEED TO
SET HIM APART FROM OTHER
PREMIERS AND PRIME
MINISTERS WHO HAVEN'T
KEPT THEIR WORD ON THAT.

Steve says LESS THAN A MINUTE.

Hugh says AND IT'S A NICE POLITICAL
MOVE BECAUSE IT MEANS
THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO
EXPLAIN WHAT HE DOES.
YOU SAY THIS IS A MISTAKE
AND IT'S NOT GOING
TO HAPPEN AGAIN, THEN HE
DOESN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT.
IT'S A NICE WAY OF
DISTANCING YOURSELF FROM IT.

[everyone talking at once]

Larry says MIKE HARRIS MADE
MISTAKES EARLY ON TOO
WHEN HE BECAME LEADER.
EVERYONE MAKES
MISTAKES EARLY ON.

Hugh says AND THE OTHER THING THAT
WAS ALLUDED TO HERE,
PATRICK TALKED ABOUT
HIM BEING A LOYALIST.
IT'S TOUGH TO FIRE A GUY
WHEN MOST OF THE TIME
HE'S FOLLOWING
THE SCRIPT.

Patrick says EXACTLY.

Hugh says AND A LOT OF THE
PROBLEMS ARE WITH THE SCRIPT.

Patrick laughs.

Larry says LOYALTY WILL CUT
NOTHING WITH MIKE HARRIS.
HE WILL PUT THE PROVINCE
FIRST - I'M NOT JUST
GIVING YOU CLICHES.
HE WILL GET THE JOB
DONE AND HE'LL MAKE
ANY SACRIFICE
NECESSARY.

Steve says THANKS, HUGH.
THANKS, PATRICK.
THANKS, LARRY.
[laughing]
THAT'S OUR PROGRAM
FOR THIS WEEK.
WE'D LIKE TO HEAR YOUR
OPINIONS SO PLEASE WRITE
TO US AT - WHAT ARE
YOU LAUGHING ABOUT?

The slate changes to "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario, M4T 2T1."

Steve continues FLIP IT, THERE WE GO.

The slate changes to "Internet address studio2@tvo.org."

Steve concludes I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
BYE BYE, EVERYBODY.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1995, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #40