Transcript: Cost Cutting | Oct 15, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK, ROUND TWO
OF THE GOVERNMENT'S BATTLE
WITH THE BUDGET.

Giving an interview, Dave says WE'RE DOING THE JOB
THAT HAS TO BE DONE.
AND THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
HAVE TOLD US THAT THIS IS A
JOB, BALANCING THE FINANCES
IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO,
THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE
MANY, MANY YEARS AGO.

Steve says HEALTHCARE,
EDUCATION, AND SOCIAL SERVICES
ALL HIT THE HARDEST.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Bob Rae. NDP Leader." Bob is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with white hair.

Bob says WHAT MAKES THE CUTS COME
SO DEEP AND SO FAST HAS
EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE
TAX CUTS THAT THEY ARE
PLANNING IN THE NEW YEAR.
THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.

Steve sits with three panelists and a guest around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray checked suit, blue shirt and patterned brown tie.

Steve says HI EVERYBODY, I'M
STEVE PAIKIN, AND WE
WELCOME YOU TO ANOTHER
EDITION OF
4th READING.
CUTS, CUTS, AND MORE CUTS
HAVE BEEN THE ORDER OF THE
DAY AT QUEEN'S PARK SINCE
THE TORIES WON LAST
SUMMER'S ELECTION.
ADD IT UP AND THE GOVERNMENT
HAS CHOPPED ALMOST 2 BILLION
DOLLARS SO FAR.
AND NEARLY EVERY PERSON IN
EVERY PART OF ONTARIO WILL
FEEL IT.
MATERNITY HOMES, SHELTERS
FOR BATTERED WOMEN,
RESIDENCES FOR YOUNG
OFFENDERS, THESE ARE JUST
A FEW OF THE MORE THAN
350 PROGRAMS AFFECTED.
CRITICS SAY THE MEASURES
ARE TOO SEVERE,
EVEN MEAN SPIRITED.
THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT
SIMPLY HAS NO CHOICE.
THIS WEEK A DISCUSSION WITH
THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR
BRINGING IN THOSE CUTS.
BUT, FIRST, A LOOK AT WHAT'S
BEEN SAID LEADING UP TO ALL
OF THIS, AND SOME
REACTION TO IT.

A clip plays.

The caption changes to "June 8, 1995."

Standing behind a lectern, a man in his sixties says ROAD AHEAD IS LONG.
IT IS A CHALLENGING
ROAD AHEAD.
WE WILL NEED THE SUPPORT
OF ALL ONTARIANS.
AND I WANT TO CONCLUDE
TONIGHT BY SAYING TO ALL
ONTARIANS THAT I'M
ASKING FOR YOUR HELP.
I'M ASKING FOR YOUR
UNDERSTANDING.
I AM ASKING IN THIS
GREAT CHALLENGE AHEAD,
FOR YOUR PRAYERS.

The caption changes to "Henry Jackman. Lieutenant Governor." Henry is in his late sixties, with white hair and clean-shaven.

Henry says WE MUST GET GOVERNMENT
SPENDING UNDER CONTROL.
WE CANNOT IGNORE THE THREAT
TO OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURE,
TO OUR PROVINCE'S FUTURE.
TO BALANCE OUR BOOKS,
ONTARIO MUST CONTINUE
THE SPENDING CUTS
BEGUN IN JULY.

The caption changes to "Dave Johnson. Chair. Management Board of Cabinet." Dave is in his early fifties, clean-shaven with brown hair.

Dave says WE'RE DOING THE JOB
THAT HAS TO BE DONE.
AND THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
HAVE TOLD US THIS IS A JOB,
BALANCING THE FINANCES IN
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO,
THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE
MANY, MANY YEARS AGO,
AND HAD IT BEEN DONE
YEARS AGO, WE WOULDN'T BE
IN THIS MESS TODAY.

The caption changes to "Frances Lankin. NDP Finance Critic." Frances is in her forties with shoulder-length brown hair.

In the Legislature, Frances bangs a table and says I DON'T ACCEPT THAT THESE
SERVICES CAN NO LONGER BE
AFFORDED IN THIS PROVINCE.
LET ME SAY TO THE MINISTER,
YOU HAVE A COMMITMENT TO A
TAX BREAK OUT THERE THAT
ARE FUELLING THESE FUNDING
CUTS FAR BEYOND WHAT IS
NECESSARY IN THIS PROVINCE.
PEOPLE ARE BEING HURT!

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY, JOINING US TO DISCUSS
THE NUMBERS IS DAVE JOHNSON.
HE'S THE CHAIRMAN OF
MANAGEMENT BOARD OF CABINET.
WE WELCOME YOU TO STUDIO 2.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

Dave says DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.

Steve says ALSO MOST OF OUR
REGULAR QUEEN'S PARK GANG
IS HERE.
THERE'S HUGH MCKENZIE THE
FORMER AID TO BOB RAE NOW
WITH THE STEEL WORKERS'
UNION, AND PATRICK GOSSAGE
FROM MEDIA PROFILE, LONG
TIME LIBERAL, AND SUBBING
FOR JANE PEPINO THIS
WEEK IS LESLIE NOBLE.
SHE WAS THE CO-CHAIR OF
THE VICTORIOUS TORY
ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
I TAKE IT YOU TWO
HAVE MET BEFORE.

Dave says FOR SURE.
LESLEY DID A
WONDERFUL JOB.

Dave laughs.

Steve says LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME
OF THE FIGURES IN OUR FACT
FILE JUST BEFORE WE GET OUR
DISCUSSION GOING HERE SO
PEOPLE CAN GET A SENSE ABOUT
WHAT NUMBERS WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT.
ALAN OPEN UP THE FACT
FILE IF YOU WOULD.
THERE WE GO:

A slate shows a red diamond that reads "Fact File." The diamond opens and the slate changes to "October Cuts: 772 million dollars. Hardest hit ministries. Education: 79 million dollars. Health: 107 million dollars. Comsoc: 127 million dollars. July cuts: 1.2 billion dollars. Total cuts for fiscal 95-96: 1.9 billion dollars. ."

Steve continues CLOSE UP THE FACT
FILE, AND HERE WE ARE.
LET'S GET INTO THIS.
MY FIRST QUESTION FOR
YOU IS A LITTLE BIT WEIRD,
BUT LET ME TRY THIS ANYWAY.
I KNOW WHAT THE MINISTRY OF
HEALTH DOES, I KNOW WHAT
THE MINISTER OF SOCIAL
SERVICES DOES, I KNOW WHAT
THE FINANCE MINISTER DOES.
I THINK PEOPLE HAVE NO
IDEA WHAT THE CHAIRMAN OF
MANAGEMENT BOARD DOES.
WHAT DO YOU DO?

Dave says I DON'T ARGUE WITH
THAT, ACTUALLY.
I WASN'T EVEN SURE MYSELF
WHEN I TOOK THE POSITION
BACK ABOUT THREE
MONTHS AGO.
BUT, PRIMARILY, THERE ARE
GOVERNMENT SERVICES SUCH
AS PRINTING, FOR EXAMPLE,
SERVICES TO THE VARIOUS
MINISTRIES, ALL OF
THE REAL ESTATE.
THE ONTARIO REALTY
CORPORATION COMES UNDER
THE PURVIEW OF
MANAGEMENT BOARD.
NEGOTIATING WITH
THE VARIOUS UNIONS.
AND WE HAVE 12 UNIONS WHICH
WE ARE EITHER NEGOTIATING
WITH AT THE PRESENT TIME
OR SOON WILL BE WITH.

Steve says BUT IN TERMS OF
GOVERNMENT SPENDING,
WHAT ROLE DO YOU PLAY?

Dave says AND GOVERNMENT
SPENDING, WHICH IS THE
FINAL POINT.
AND THE MANAGEMENT BOARD IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING
THE EXPENDITURES OF THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO AND
ENSURING THEY ARE CONSISTENT,
THAT THEY MAKE SENSE.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE SETS
THE OVERALL TARGETS, AND
THEN MANAGEMENT BOARD HAS
TO DEAL ONE ON ONE WITH
EACH OF THE MINISTRIES TO
MAKE SURE THAT THE OVERALL
COMMITMENTS ARE MET.

Steve says OKAY, IN TERMS OF THESE
SPENDING CUTS, PRESUMABLY,
WE AS TAXPAYERS WERE
GETTING SOME SERVICES FOR
THE MONEY WE WERE SPENDING.
PRESUMABLY.
AND WE'VE SEEN THE LONG LIST
OF SERVICES THAT WE'LL NOT
BE GETTING RIGHT NOW.
CAN YOU TELL ME WHY YOU'RE
LESS CONCERNED ABOUT THE
SERVICES THAT WE'LL
NOT BE GETTING ANYMORE,
VERSUS THE SAVINGS?

Dave says I THINK ONE HAS
TO PRIORITIZE.
AND SIMPLY PUT, WE WERE
FACED WITH THE SITUATION
UPON TAKING OFFICE, SHORTLY
THERE AFTER, THE MINISTRY
OF FINANCE INDICATED 10.6
BILLION DOLLARS IF NO FURTHER
ACTION WAS TAKEN.
AND 10.6 BILLION DOLLARS...

Steve says FOR THE
DEFICIT YOU MEAN.

Dave continues DEFICIT.
10.6 BILLION DOLLARS DEFICIT IS NOT
SUSTAINABLE, OBVIOUSLY, IN
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
SOME ACTION HAD TO BE TAKEN.
OUR POINT OF VIEW WAS WE
HAD TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE
SERVICES WE WERE GIVEN.
WE HAD TO LOOK AT THE WAY
THEY WERE BEING DELIVERED,
AND WE HAD TO LOOK FOR
EFFICIENCIES AND WE HAD TO
PRIORITIZE AND WE
HAD TO MAKE CUTS.

Steve says COACH, YOU WANT TO
HOLD UP THE LIST?
YOU'VE GOT THE LIST, A
COUPLE OF PEOPLE HAVE THE
LIST IT'S AN EXTREMELY
EXHAUSTIVE LIST OF ALL THE
CUTS, AND THEY
HAVE BEEN ITEMIZED.
CAN I JUST GO THROUGH A FEW
OF THEM WITH THE PEOPLE
AT THE TABLE HERE.

Patrick Gossage shows the pages of a document. He is in his late forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing glasses, a pale shirt, green tie and gray jacket.

Steve continues MOST PEOPLE HAVE HEARD
ABOUT A LOT OF THE BIGGIES.
I JUST ACTUALLY WANT TO GO
THROUGH SOME OF THE SMALLER
ONES, AND LET'S JUST
DISCUSS IT A LITTLE BIT.
I SEE HERE REDUCING
ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH
GRANTS, OR REDUCING ENERGY
CONSERVATION GRANTS.
NOW, PRESUMABLY GOVERNMENT
WAS INVOLVED IN THIS
BECAUSE IT WAS SOMEHOW
BENEFITING US.
WHAT BENEFITS ARE WE NOT
GOING TO GET AS A RESULT OF
YOUR GRANTS BEING
CUT BACK NOW?

Dave says I THINK THERE WOULD ALMOST
HAVE TO BE DETAIL ON EACH
INDIVIDUAL ONE.
AND BEAR IN MIND
THERE ARE OVER 400.
THE PAGE THAT WAS SHOWN
PROBABLY SHOWS 40 OR 50.
BUT IN TOTAL THERE ARE ABOUT
400 DIFFERENT PROGRAMS, AND
I DON'T PROFESS TO BE THE
EXPERT ON EACH AND EVERY
ONE OF THEM.
AT ONE POINT IN TIME WE'VE
RUN THROUGH THEM ALL.
BUT I WOULDN'T PROFESS TO
KNOW THE EXACT DETAILS.
WHAT WE'VE HAD TO DO IS LOOK
IN TERMS OF WHETHER THE
MONEY IS IN THE BUDGET
THIS YEAR MAKES SENSE.
THE CONSERVATION PROGRAMS
MAY SIMPLY BE DEFERRED.
BUT WE SIMPLY CANNOT
AFFORD IT THIS YEAR.

Steve says DO YOU
BELIEVE THAT?

Hugh is in his forties, clean-shaven with receding curly hair. He’s wearing round glasses, a beige suit, white shirt and patterned brown and blue tie.

Hugh says I DON'T THINK THE
GOVERNMENT HAS PUT ITS MIND
AT ALL SERIOUSLY TO THE
IMPACT OF WHAT IT'S DOING.
I THINK THE EVIDENCE
IS REALLY CLEAR.

The caption changes to "Hugh Mackenzie. Former Aide to Bob Rae."

Hugh continues THEY HAVEN'T REALLY
CONSULTED WITH THE PEOPLE
THAT ARE AFFECTED.
I THINK THESE ARE JUST
NUMBERS ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
AND I THINK THE REAL PROBLEM
HERE IS I UNDERSTAND THAT'S
THE OFFICIAL LINE THAT THESE
ARE CUTS THAT ARE NECESSARY
BECAUSE OF THE DISASTROUS
SHAPE THE PROVINCE IS IN.
NOBODY WOULD ARGUE
THAT A 10.6 BILLION DOLLARS
DEFICIT IS SUSTAINABLE.
BUT THE BOTTOM LINE HERE
IS THIS STUFF IS NOT BEING
DONE FOR THAT PURPOSE.
IT'S NOT BEING DONE FOR
A BALANCING PURPOSE.
IT'S BEING DONE TO OPEN
UP ROOM FOR AN INCREDIBLY
AGGRESSIVE TAX BREAK.
THE REASON WHY THESE CUTS
ARE PROCEEDING AT THIS PACE
NOW IS TO OPEN UP SPACE
FOR HARRIS TO DELIVER ON
HIS TAX PROMISE.
AND THE TAX PROMISE HASN'T
REALLY BEEN LOOKED AT
VERY CLOSELY.
I HAVE.
AND MORE THAN HALF OF THE
BENEFIT FROM THAT TAX CUT IS
GOING TO FAMILIES IN ONTARIO
WHOSE INCOMES ARE OVER
90,000 DOLLARS A YEAR.

Steve says THEY MAKE THE
MOST AMOUNT OF MONEY.
IF YOU'RE GIVING THE SAME
TAX CUT TO EVERY FAMILY,
THEY'RE GOING TO REAP
THE MOST BENEFIT.

Hugh says I GUESS THE CHALLENGE THAT I
PUT TO ANYBODY WHO SUPPORTS
THIS IS IN THE ABSTRACT, IF
I PROPOSED, FOR EXAMPLE,
THAT I WAS GOING TO WRITE
CHEQUES OF A THOUSAND
DOLLARS TO PEOPLE WHO MADE
BETWEEN 50,000 AND 60,000
DOLLARS A YEAR, AND I WAS GOING TO
WRITE A CHEQUE AVERAGING
10,000 DOLLARS TO FAMILIES MAKING
OVER 150,000 DOLLARS A YEAR, WOULD
PEOPLE THINK THAT WAS FAIR?
THAT'S EXACTLY
WHAT THIS IS DOING.

Dave says STEVE, I HAVE TO DIFFER
FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW.
THE BASIC PRESUMPTION IS
THESE CUTS WERE NOT NEEDED.
AND I WOULD HAVE TO ARGUE
WITH THAT VERY VOCIFEROUSLY.
WHEN ONE IS FACED WITH A
10.6 BILLION DOLLARS DEFICIT,
THIS PROGRAM, FOR EXAMPLE,
IS A HALF AN HOUR LONG.
THE INTEREST PAYMENTS, JUST
DURING THE LENGTH OF THIS
PROGRAM OF A HALF AN HOUR,
WILL INCREASE BY A HALF A
MILLION DOLLARS IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
THAT'S THE KIND OF
PROBLEM WE'RE FACING.

Hugh says I'M NOT
ARGUING WITH THAT.
ALL I'M SAYING IS THE
PREMISE OF THIS EXERCISE IS
OPENING UP SPACE FOR A TAX
CUT THAT, FRANKLY, I THINK
IS JUST AN
OUTRAGEOUS TAX CUT.

Dave says I'M SORRY, I CAN'T
AGREE WITH YOU.
I'M SORRY, I CAN'T AGREE
WITH YOU BECAUSE WHEN WE'RE
LOOKING AT 10.6 BILLION DOLLARS
DEFICIT, THE BASIC PROBLEM
IS TO ADDRESS THAT.
THAT'S EXACTLY
WHAT WE'VE DONE.

Steve says LESLIE.

Leslie says THE PREMISES OF THESE TAX
CUTS, I THINK IT WOULD BE
VERY CLEAR TO ANYBODY
LOOKING AT IT, IS TO CLEAN
UP THE MESS THAT YOUR
GOVERNMENT AND YOUR
GOVERNMENT CREATED OVER
THE LAST TEN YEARS.

The caption changes to "Leslie Noble. Former Conservative Campaign Manager." Leslie is in her thirties with shoulder-length blond hair. She’s wearing a navy blazer with a white collar and glasses.

Leslie continues WE'RE PAYING 9 BILLION DOLLARS A
YEAR IN INTEREST ON THE DEBT.
IF NOTHING IS DONE, THAT
WILL DOUBLE, TRIPLE,
QUADRUPLE, 20 BILLION DOLLARS
WE WOULD BE PAYING.

Dave says 20 CENTS ON EVERY DOLLAR
OF REVENUE NOW GOING
TO INTEREST.

Hugh says ARE THE TWO OF YOU
SAYING TODAY THAT MIKE
HARRIS ISN'T MIRACULOUSLY
GOING TO FIND THE FISCAL
ROOM HE NEEDS TO GIVE
A TAX CUT NEXT SPRING?
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
TODAY, THAT THE TAX CUT'S OFF?

Dave says I'M SAYING NEXT SPRING IS NEXT
SPRING, BUT TODAY IS TODAY.

Hugh says AND WE'RE GOING
TO SAVAGE...

Dave continues THAT NEEDS TO BE
ADDRESSED FOR THE FUTURE
OF THE PROVINCE
OF ONTARIO.

Hugh says AND WE'RE GOING
TO SAVAGE THE SOCIAL
INFRASTRUCTURE OF THIS
PROVINCE TO OPEN UP THE ROOM
FOR A TAX GIVEAWAY THAT
IS PREDOMINANTLY GOING TO
BENEFIT THE RICH
NEXT SPRING.

Dave says CAN I SUGGEST TO YOU
WHAT WILL SAVAGE THE HEALTH
PROGRAMS, THE SOCIAL
PROGRAMS IN THE PROVINCE
OF ONTARIO IF WE FAIL
TO ADDRESS THE 10.6
BILLION DOLLARS DEFICIT.
20 CENTS OUT OF EVERY DOLLAR
IN REVENUE GOES TO PAY
INTEREST ON THE DEBT.
IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THIS
PROBLEM WITHIN FIVE YEARS
40 CENTS OUT OF EVERY DOLLAR.
NOW, WITH 40 CENTS OUT OF
EVERY DOLLAR GONE TO PAY FOR
INTEREST, WHERE IS THE ROOM
TO PAY FOR HEALTHCARE?
WHERE IS THE ROOM
TO PAY FOR EDUCATION?
WHERE IS THE ROOM TO
PAY FOR SOCIAL SERVICES?

Leslie says 9 BILLION DOLLARS
DEBT INTEREST.
IT'S MORE THAN WE
SPENT ON HOSPITALS
IN THIS PROVINCE.

Hugh says IF YOU TOOK THAT
PROBLEM AS SERIOUSLY AS
YOU'RE CLAIMING, WE WOULDN'T
BE TALKING ABOUT THROWING
AWAY THAT MUCH FISCAL
ROOM NEXT SPRING.
WE WOULDN'T BE
TALKING ABOUT THAT.
AND I THINK THE FACT THAT
MIKE HARRIS HAS STUCK TO
THAT ALBATROSS OF THE TAX
CUT FOR AS LONG AS HE HAS,
AND CONTINUES TO STICK TO
IT IN THE FACE OF THESE
INCREDIBLE CUTS TO THE
SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF
THIS PROVINCE...

Steve says YOU CALL
IT AN ALBATROSS,
BUT IT HELPED
GET HIM ELECTED.
PEOPLE WANTED IT.

Hugh says OF COURSE IT DOES.
BUT NOW EVERYBODY IS RUNNING
AROUND HOW THE TAX CUT'S
GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
IF IT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING
TO DO WITH IT, THEN MAYBE
THEY SHOULD
BACK OFF ON IT.

Leslie says WE HAVE TWO PROBLEMS
IN THIS PROVINCE.
WE HAVE RUNAWAY GOVERNMENT
SPENDING, A DEBT THAT IS
BURDENING US BEYOND BELIEF,
AND IS MORTGAGING THE
FUTURE OF OUR CHILDREN.
9 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN DEBT
INTEREST IS MORE THAN WE
SPEND ON HOSPITALS
IN THIS PROVINCE.
WE HAVE ANOTHER PROBLEM.
WE'RE AMONG THE HIGHEST TAX
JURISDICTIONS IN ALL OF
NORTH AMERICA.
YOU CAN CUT AND YOU CAN
SLASH AND YOU CAN BURN AND
YOU CAN SHRINK, BUT IT'S
NOT GOING TO CREATE A
SINGLE JOB.
ONLY A TAX CUT, AND ONLY
GETTING RID OF THE BARRIERS
TO GROWTH WILL CREATE THE
JOBS THAT THIS PROVINCE NEEDS.

Steve says LET'S GET
PATRICK IN HERE.

Patrick says FIRST OF ALL, I DO
NOT BELIEVE THAT PUTTING A
THOUSAND DOLLARS IN MY
POCKET, AS I'VE SAID HERE
BEFORE SO I CAN BUY A
COLOUR TV FROM JAPAN,
OR PAY OFF MY VISA BILL IS
GOING TO CREATE ONE SINGLE JOB.
LET ME JUST SAY THAT.

Leslie says IT MAY NOT MEAN A LOT
TO YOU, BUT IT DOES MEAN A
LOT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING
25,000 AND 30,000 DOLLARS A YEAR.

Patrick says A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE...

Hugh says PEOPLE MAKING 25 AND
30,000 DOLLARS A YEAR ARE
GOING TO GET THE PRINCELY
SUM OF BETWEEN 200 AND 250 DOLLARS.
LET'S STOP CONNING PEOPLE
ABOUT THIS TAX CUT.

Leslie says ONLY SOMEONE FOR WHOM 200
DOLLARS ISN'T A LOT WOULD MAKE A
COMMENT LIKE THAT.

Dave says A TAX CUT
WILL CREATE JOBS.
I THINK WE'RE
DISPUTING HOW MANY.

Patrick says I THINK TRICKLE
DOWN ECONOMICS HAS BEEN
QUESTIONED AND FOUND
WANTING BADLY.

The caption changes to "Patrick Gossage. President, Media Profile."

Leslie says IT'S PROVEN TO WORK
IN EVERY JURISDICTION IN
WHICH IT'S BEEN TRIED.
REAGAN'S PROBLEM WAS
HE NEVER CUT SPENDING.
HE CUT TAXES, BUT HE
NEVER CUT SPENDING.
MIKE HARRIS HAS THE
GUTS TO DO BOTH.

Patrick says COULD I SAY
ONE OTHER THING,
AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.
THAT IS, WHAT I'M MOST
FRIGHTENED OF IS THE
UNSEEMLY HASTE WITH WHICH
THIS IS BEING DONE.
I CANNOT IMAGINE BUREAUCRATS
AND POLITICIANS IN A FAIR
AND AS YOU SAID A PRIORITY
SETTING WAY, AS IF THERE
WAS SOME KIND OF RATIONAL
EXERCISE, TO MAKING A LEST
OF 400 THINGS IN A
COUPLE OF MONTHS TO CUT.
I JUST FIND IT STUNNING.
AND I WISH TO HECK
THE GLOBE AND MAIL
OR
THE STAR
HAD PUBLISHED
THESE THINGS SO YOU CAN...
HOW IS IT DONE?
I MEAN, YOU SAY IT'S
A PRIORITY EXERCISE?
PRIORITY EXERCISES LIKE
THESE NORMALLY TAKE SIX
OR EIGHT MONTHS.
I JUST THINK THE STUFF THAT'S
FALLING OFF THE TABLE.

Steve says HANG ON, LET
ME FIND THIS OUT.
I THOUGHT THE ORIGINAL
INSTRUCTIONS WERE FROM YOU
TO THE MINISTRIES, GO OUT AND
FIND 500 MILLION IN SAVINGS.
AND, IN FACT, THEY CAME BACK
WITH 700 MILLION IN SAVINGS.

Dave says LET ME CLARIFY THAT.
THEY WERE TOLD
TO FIND 700.
500 FROM THEIR OPERATING
BUDGET, 200 FROM THE
CAPITAL BUDGET.

Steve says OKAY.

Dave continues SO THEY EXCEEDED THEIR
TARGETS BY ABOUT 72.

Patrick says I THINK THAT'S
THE KIND OF ENTHUSIASM YOU
SHOULDN'T BOAST ABOUT
BECAUSE THERE'S A PERSON
AT THE END OF EVERY
ONE OF THOSE.

Dave says THE MINISTRIES ARE FAMILIAR
WITH THEIR PROGRAMS.
THE MINISTRIES
WENT BACK...

Patrick says THEY'RE SCARED.

Dave continues THROUGH THE COURSE
OF THE SUMMER AND WERE
VERY COOPERATIVE.
AND I TAKE GREAT ISSUE
WITH THE USE OF THE WORDS.
THEY EXAMINED THEIR
PROGRAMS, DETERMINED WHICH
ARE CORE PROGRAMS THAT MUST
BE GIVEN, AND LOOKED AT THE
OTHER NON-PRIORITY ISSUES.

Steve says LET ME
FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

[all talking at once]

Steve says HANG ON A SEC, GOSSAGE, LET
ME GET IN HERE, DAMMIT.

They laugh.

Dave says BUT OXYGEN
HAS BEEN MENTIONED.
OXYGEN IS A PROGRAM WHICH
IN THE FIRST INSTANCE WAS
OVERBUDGETED BY 8 MILLION DOLLARS.
SO 8 MILLION WAS NEVER
INTENDED TO BE SPENT.
FOR SOME REASON OR OTHER, IT
WAS IN THE BUDGET, BUT THE
MINISTRY CAME BACK TO US AND
SAID OF THE 10 WE ONLY HAVE
PLANS TO SPEND 2.
THE OTHER 2, WHAT THEY'RE
HOPING TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE
TO USE IS A MORE EFFICIENT
CANISTER OF OXYGEN FOR
THOSE PEOPLE WHO
ARE NOT MOBILE.
AND THAT WILL SAVE
THE OTHER 2 MILLION DOLLARS.

Steve says COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
PROMISES THAT ANY SAVINGS TO
BE REALIZED FROM CUTS TO THE
MINISTRY OF EDUCATION WILL
NOT BE COME OUT
OF THE CLASSROOM.
LET ME PURSUE -- WE'RE
THE EDUCATION NETWORK.
LET'S TALK ABOUT
EDUCATION HERE.
HAVE YOU BEEN TOO CUTE BY
HALF IN YOUR INSTRUCTIONS
OR LACK THEREOF TO SCHOOL
BOARDS ACROSS THE PROVINCE
WHEN YOU SAY, WE NEED
YOU TO CUT -- WHAT IS IT,
70 - 80 MILLION DOLLARS?
WHATEVER IT IS.
WHAT IS IT, 79?

Leslie says 32--

Dave says THERE'S SOME
FROM SCHOOL BOARDS,
THERE'S SOME FROM
UNIVERSITIES COLLEGES.

Steve says 79.
WE NEED YOU TO CUT 79
BILLION DOLLARS, WE DON'T CARE
HOW YOU DO IT.
YOU DIDN'T SAY TO THEM
DON'T TAKE IT OUT
OF THE CLASSROOM.
YOU SAID TO THEM, WE DON'T
CARE HOW YOU DO IT, JUST DO IT.
WHAT GIVES?

Dave says WELL, 32 MILLION OF THAT
TOTAL HAS BEEN DESCRIBED
IN THAT FASHION.
CUT IT.
32 MILLION, WE THINK,
IS QUITE ACHIEVABLE
FROM ADMINISTRATION.
THAT REPRESENTS 1 PERCENT.
1 PERCENT REDUCTION
TO SCHOOL BOARDS.
AND I DOUBT IF ANY OF YOUR
VIEWERS WOULD THINK THAT ISN'T
POSSIBLE, THAT THE SCHOOL
BOARDS COULD LOOK WITHIN
THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE BUDGETS
AND FIND 1 PERCENT SAVING.

Steve says MY QUESTION HAS MORE TO DO
WITH THE COMMITMENT NOT TO
CUTTING CLASSROOM EDUCATION.
WHY WOULDN'T YOU SAY TO
THEM SAVE THAT 32 MILLION,
BUT YOU CAN'T
TOUCH CLASSROOMS?
BECAUSE SCHOOL BOARDS
MIGHT WANT TO OR HAVE TO
TO REALIZE THOSE SAVINGS.

Dave says I THINK WE MADE
THAT MESSAGE VERY CLEAR.

Steve says NOT TO
THEM YOU HAVEN'T.

Dave laughs and continues I WOULD HOPE THE MINISTRY
OF EDUCATION HAS MADE
THAT POINT.
CERTAINLY WE DID
DURING THAT ELECTION.
I THINK IF THERE'S ANY
SCHOOL BOARD THAT DOESN'T
REALIZE WHAT OUR MOTIVE IS,
AND HOW WE'RE PURSUING THAT...

Steve says IN FACT, I
DON'T THINK YOU HAVE ANY
AUTHORITY TO TELL THEM
THAT ANYWAY, DO YOU?

Dave says YOU'RE
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
TO BE PRECISE WE DON'T HAVE
THE AUTHORITY TO ORDER
THEM, BUT WE WOULD HOPE
FOR THEIR COOPERATION.
AND I BELIEVE WE'LL GET IT
FOR THE 1 PERCENT FIGURE.
I THINK IT'S HIGHLY
ACHIEVABLE.

Patrick says I WANT TO SAY A WORD OF
CONGRATULATIONS TO LESLIE
AND THE MINISTER BECAUSE I
THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE
MORE BRILLIANT PIECES OF
STRATEGY I'VE SEEN FOR YEARS
TO PUT EVERYTHING
OUT AT ONCE.

Dave laughs.

Steve says THIS ISN'T
EVERYTHING.
THERE'S 6 BILLION
MORE TO COME.

Patrick continues BUT THIS LIST, NOBODY
CAN SCRUTINIZE THIS.
THERE'S NO POSSIBILITY OF
INTELLIGENT OPPOSITION, OR
INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION
OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
SO WAY TO GO.

Steve says NEVERTHELESS
WE'RE GOING TO TRY HERE.

Patrick says NO,
BUT THERE ISN'T.

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO
TRY HERE ANYWAY.

Hugh says IT'S LIKE
THE ESTIMATES.

Patrick says THE PRESS AREN'T
DOING ANYTHING WITH IT.

Hugh continues THERE'S SO MUCH THERE,
IT'S GOING TO SLIDE
RIGHT THROUGH.

Patrick says IF I WAS GOING TO
DO IT, I'D DO IT THE SAME WAY.
SO WAY TO GO.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS
ON THE OTHER HAND.
THERE ARE SEVERAL MENTIONS
IN HERE, TO, FOR EXAMPLE, A
FREEZE OF THE DISCRETIONARY
SPENDING OF SUCH A SUCH
A DEPUTY MINISTER.
OR A CUT IN THE
DISCRETIONARY SPENDING BY
SUCH AND SUCH A MINISTER.
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
IS THAT TO SUGGEST THESE
BUDGETS WERE INORDINATELY
PADDED TO START WITH?

Dave says WELL, I DOUBT YOU'D FIND
MUCH ARGUMENT WITH THE
PEOPLE FROM THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO THAT MORE MONEY
HAS BEEN SPENT.
THE USE OF THE WORD 'PADDED'
MAY INVOKE SOME ARGUMENT.
BUT MORE MONEY HAS BEEN
SPENT, CLEARLY, THAN WE CAN
AFFORD, OR THAN HAS
NEEDED TO BE SPENT.

Steve says HAVING SAID THAT
ABOUT DEPUTY MINISTERS'
DISCRETIONARY ALLOWANCES AND
SO ON, NONE OF THESE CUTS
AFFECT ELECTED
REPRESENTATIVES.
HOW COME?

Dave says WELL, I WOULD TAKE A
LITTLE ISSUE WITH THAT.
CERTAINLY, IN MY MINISTRY,
PART OF THE CUTS FROM
MY MINISTRY HAS COME
FROM MY OFFICE.
THE PREVIOUS MINISTER HAD
EITHER 15 OR 17 STAFF,
IT'S HARD FOR US
TO DETERMINE.
I HAVE FOUR.
PREVIOUS MINISTER HAD
A CAR AND A CHAUFFEUR.
I DO NOT HAVE A
CAR OR A CHAUFFEUR.
OUR PENSIONS ARE
UNDER REVIEW.
I WILL NOT GET A PENSION
FROM THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
I'M VERY CONFIDENT.
THAT'S NOT PART OF THIS
PARTICULAR PROGRAM,
BUT THAT REVIEW IS TAKING
PLACE RIGHT NOW, AND SOMETIME
THIS FALL THE RETURNS
WILL COME BACK IN.
SO ALL OF THE MEMBERS ARE
GOING TO BE AFFECTED.

Steve says IS IT UNREASONABLE
OF PEOPLE TO SAY IF YOU'RE
GOING AFTER BATTERED WOMEN'S
SHELTERS AND SO ON AND SO
ON AND SO ON, HOW COME
THERE'S NOTHING IN THIS
DOCUMENT THAT MIGHT FORCE
POLITICIANS TO HAVE A
SMALLER SPENDING ALLOWANCE,
OR FORCE POLITICIANS TO
HAVE FEWER STAFFERS
IN THEIR OFFICE?

Leslie says I THINK THAT WILL ALL
COME AS PART OF THE
COMPENSATION REVIEW.
BUT I THINK TO ASK
POLITICIANS AT THIS TIME
TO DECIDE UPON THEIR OWN PAY
AND THEIR OWN PERKS AND
THEIR OWN PRIVILEGES
IS SOMETHING THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT, AND FRANKLY
MEMBERS OF ALL SIDES OF THE
HOUSE, WANT TO AVOID.
THEY WANT TO PUT IT OUT TO
AN ARMS LENGTH COMMISSION
SO COMPENSATION EXPERTS CAN
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS THING
AND COME UP WITH SOMETHING
THAT IS FAIR FOR THE
TAXPAYERS, FAIR FOR THE
PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THOSE JOBS.

Dave says LET'S BE CLEAR, THE
BUDGETS OF THE MINISTERS
HAVE BEEN REDUCED.
ALL THE MINISTERS HAVE BEEN
GIVEN GUIDELINES IN TERMS
OF THE STAFFING
THEY CAN HAVE.
AND THOSE STAFFING LEVELS
ARE CLEARLY BELOW EITHER OF
THE PREVIOUS TWO
GOVERNMENTS.

Steve says HAS THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT
EVER, IN 130 YEARS,
CUT SPENDING
BY THIS MUCH?

Dave says I DOUBT IT.
I'M NOT AWARE.
AND THAT'S THE
PROBLEM WE FACE TODAY.
THAT WE'RE SPENDING 10
BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR OF MONEY
WE DON'T HAVE.
AND WE'RE BORROWING THAT
MONEY FROM THE JAPANESE,
THE AMERICANS AND
THE EUROPEANS.
AND THEY EXPECT
TO BE PAID BACK.

Patrick says CAN I ASK A REAL
QUESTION, AND THIS IS A
REAL QUESTION BECAUSE THIS
IS SOMETHING I'M REALLY
INTERESTED IN.
I REALIZE THAT YOU CAN'T DO
IT NOW, BUT IS THERE NOT
A LARGE SAVINGS TO BE
EXACTED IN EFFICIENCIES
OF GOVERNMENT?
BECAUSE ONE THING I AGREE
WITH ENTIRELY WITH THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION IS
THAT GOVERNMENTS, IN FACT,
THE BUREAUCRACIES CAN BE
RUN MORE LIKE BUSINESS.
AND I THINK FOR BUSINESS
PEOPLE, WHEN THEY SEE HOW
BUREAUCRACIES RUN THEY
ALL JUST CHOKE UP.
MY GOD, IF THIS WAS A
BUSINESS, THEY'D BE WORKING
HARDER, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
I DON'T SEE ANY OF THE KINDS
OF EFFICIENCIES WHICH WOULD,
IN FACT, PLEASE YOUR
CONSTITUENCIES.
I SEE THIS AS
ALL PROGRAM CUTS.
LIKE OFF THE TABLE,
OFF THE TABLE.

Leslie says THAT'S NOT TRUE.
IF YOU SCRUTINIZE
THIS CLOSELY.

Dave says YOU DO MAKE AN EXCELLENT
POINT, AND IT'S ONE I'M
VERY HEARTENED BY THAT.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE
BEEN MOST HEARTENED BY IS
THE COOPERATION OF
THE DEPUTY MINISTERS.
THE DEPUTY MINISTERS
ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO
RESTRUCTURE THE GOVERNMENT
TO MAKE IT MORE EFFICIENT.
IT MAY BE POSSIBLE THAT A
MINISTRY MIGHT DISAPPEAR.

Steve says WHICH ONE?

Dave says I'M NOT GOING
TO NAME NAMES.

Steve says NAME NAMES.
WE WANT TO FIND OUT.

Patrick says I'M TALKING ABOUT OPERATING
MORE EFFECTIVELY, HAVING
MORE ACCOUNTABLE STANDARDS
FOR CIVIL SERVANTS.
THAT KIND OF THING, IT
SEEMS TO ME THERE ARE REAL
SAVINGS THAT PERHAPS COULD
BE AFFECTED AND THEN
PERHAPS SAVE SOME PROGRAMS
THAT REALLY AFFECT PEOPLE.
AND I REALIZE THAT'S OVER
A LONGER TERM, MINISTER.

Dave says WELL, IT WON'T BE A VERY
LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
WE'VE ALREADY ANNOUNCED AS A
RESULT OF THESE REDUCTIONS
THERE WILL BE 1400 FEWER
CIVIL SERVANTS IN THE
ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE
OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS.
AND OVER THE NEXT FOUR OR
FIVE YEARS, THE TARGET IN
THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION WAS 13,000.

Patrick says WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO
DO TO MAKE THEM WORK SMARTER,
NOT JUST GET RID OF THEM?

Dave says BY THE DOWNSIZING OF THE
CIVIL SERVICE, THROUGH
PRIVATIZATION, THROUGH
CONTRACTING OUT, I THINK YOU
WILL SEE A VERY MUCH MORE
EFFICIENT AND SMARTER
OPERATION IN THE
CIVIL SERVICE.

Patrick says 'COS I'D BE INCLINED TO TALK
ABOUT THAT PARALLEL BECAUSE
I THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS IS
JUST SETTING UP, YOU KNOW,
MAYBE NOT 400, BUT AT LEAST
200 OR 300 INTEREST GROUPS
THAT ARE JUST GOING TO ADD
TO THE HORRORS YOU ARE
GOING TO HAVE
TO GO THROUGH.
Smiling, he continues AND I KNOW YOU DRIVE YOUR
OWN CAR SO NOBODY KNOWS
THAT YOU'RE COMING, BUT
NEVERTHELESS, THIS IS
SETTING UP AN AWFUL LOT OF
VERY DISSATISFIED PEOPLE.

Leslie says I THINK THE REALITY THOUGH,
AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO
TURN THE TAPS OFF.
AND I THINK THE MINISTER AND
HIS COLLEAGUES HAVE MADE A
VERY GOOD EFFORT OF GETTING
IN THERE AND TRYING TO VERY
QUICKLY TURN THE TAPS OFF
SO THAT AT THE VERY LEAST
WE'VE STOPPED THE BLEEDING
AND WE CAN GO FORWARD
WITH A PLAN THAT...

Hugh says THEY DIDN'T
TURN THE TAPS OFF,
THEY PULLED OUT
THE DRAIN PLUG.

Patrick says JUST TAKING STUFF OFF
THE SHELVES AND DUMPED
IT ON THE FLOOR.

Leslie says I THINK IF YOU TAKE A
LOOK AT THESE YOU'LL FIND
THERE HAVE BEEN A BIG EFFORT
ON THE PART OF A LOT OF
DEPUTY MINISTERS TO FIND
THOSE INTERNAL SAVINGS.
IF YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE
CASH MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS IN
THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH
ALONE ACCOUNTING FOR
33 MILLION DOLLARS WORTH
OF THE SAVINGS.

Patrick says I APPLAUD THAT.

Steve says THERE'S ONE PROMISE
THOUGH IN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION THAT IF I HAVE
HEARD A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT
OF SKEPTICAL REACTION
TO, IT'S THIS ONE.
AND THAT IS AFTER ALL THE
CUTS TO HEALTHCARE HAVE
TAKEN PLACE, THAT SOMEHOW
THERE WILL BE IN FIVE YEARS
TIME 17 PLUS BILLION DOLLARS
IN THE HEALTH ENVELOPE,
AS YOU GUYS LIKE
TO CALL IT.

Dave says 17.4 BILLION.

Steve says 17.4.
AS THERE WAS WHEN
YOU TOOK OVER.

Dave says I THINK OUR PROBLEM IN FIVE
YEARS IS GOING TO KEEP IT
TO THE 17.4 BILLION.
THE POPULATION IS AGING.
THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE IN
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
HEALTHCARE REQUIREMENTS
ARE INCREASING.
THE DRUG PROGRAM ITSELF
IS GOING UP BY ABOUT
10 PERCENT A YEAR.

Steve says BUT YOU'VE TAKEN HOW
MUCH OUT OF HEALTH ALREADY?
I MEAN, MORE THAN
200 MILLION ALREADY.

Dave says 107 MILLION IN
OPERATING AND...

Steve says 134 IN JULY.

Dave says AND SOME OF THAT MONEY
IS ALREADY BEING REINVESTED
DIALYSIS EQUIPMENT,
PARAMEDIC SUPPORT.
SOME OF THAT MONEY IS
ALREADY GOING BACK IN.

Steve says SO AGAIN YOU SIT HERE
TONIGHT AND YOU WILL
ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE US THAT
IN FOUR OR FIVE YEARS TIME,
WHENEVER YOU GO TO THE POLLS
NEXT, THERE WILL BE 17.7
BILLION, WHICH IS WHAT YOU
TOOK IT OVER FROM THE NDP AT.
I NOTICE YOU FUDGING.
YOU'RE NOW SAYING 17.4.

Leslie says 17.4 IS
WHAT THEY REPORTED.

Dave says WE'VE BEEN CLEAR ON
THAT, AND MIKE HARRIS HAS
BEEN CLEAR ON THAT IN
THE LEGISLATURE THAT 17.4
WAS THE AMOUNT WHEN WE
PUT OUT THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION, WHEN WE
MADE THE COMMITMENT.
AND THAT'S THE COMMITMENT
THAT WE'LL ABIDE BY.

Steve says MY QUESTION FOR THE NDP IN
THIS SITUATION IS YOU KNOW...
A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT THIS
AGENDA, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE,
YOU CAN'T GO ANYWHERE IN
THIS PROVINCE RIGHT NOW,
I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME,
WHEN I'M ON THE STREET,
ON THE SUBWAY, PEOPLE SAY,
GIVE THIS GUY A CHANCE.
HARRIS.
THEY SAY, GIVE THIS
AGENDA A CHANCE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE VOTED
FOR IT ON JUNE 8th.
HOW DO YOU ARGUE AGAINST
SPENDING CUTS AND TAX
BREAKS, BOTH OF WHICH
SO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS
PROVINCE APPEAR TO WANT?

Hugh says WELL, I THINK IT'S TRUE,
A LOT OF PEOPLE VOTED
FOR THAT PACKAGE.
I THINK A LOT OF US DURING
THE CAMPAIGN MADE A POINT
OF EMPHASIZING THAT
IT DOESN'T ADD UP.
AND THE PROOF OF THE
PUDDING, THE PROOF OF THE
FACT IT DOESN'T ADD UP IS A
LOT OF THE PAIN WE'RE GOING
THROUGH NOW IS NOT FOCUSSED
ON GETTING THE PROVINCE'S
FINANCES BALANCED, IT'S
FOCUSSED ON GETTING THE
ROOM OPENED UP TO
PROVIDE THIS TAX CUT.
AND PEOPLE VOTED
FOR A TAX CUT.
PEOPLE VOTED FOR
A LOT OF THINGS.
THE FACT IS THERE ARE JUST
CONTRADICTIONS AS LONG AS
YOUR ARM IN THIS.
AND JUST AS THE
CONSERVATIVES WERE ELECTED
ON THAT PLATFORM, WE WERE
ELECTED ON A COMMITMENT TO
FIGHT THAT EVERY STEP OF
THE WAY AND TO POINT OUT
THE CONTRADICTIONS.
AND WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT.

Dave says I WOULD TURN THE TABLE
ON YOU, HUGH, AND I WOULD SAY,
WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH THE
10.6 BILLION DOLLARS DEFICIT?
NOW, A FEW YEARS AGO BOB
RAE WAS FACED WITH...

Hugh says REDUCE IT.

Dave says AND HOW WOULD
YOU DO IT?

Hugh says WELL, ONE THING FOR
SURE I WOULDN'T BE DOING IS
I WOULDN'T BE TAKING A
LARGE PART OF WHATEVER
GAINS ARE BEING MADE AS
GOVERNMENT IS MADE MORE
EFFICIENT, AND AS PROGRAMS
ARE TRIMMED, I WOULDN'T BE
TAKING A LARGE PART OF IT,
IN FACT MORE THAN ALL OF
WHAT YOU'VE DONE SO FAR,
AND JUST THROW IT AWAY IN A
TAX CUT THAT IS LARGELY
GOING TO BENEFIT UPPER
MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE.

Leslie says HOW WOULD YOU CREATE
JOBS THAT ONTARIANS NEED
IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO REDUCE
THE BARRIERS TO GROWTH,
IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
TAKE TAX LEVELS DOWN TO A
COMPETITIVE RANGE WHERE WE
CAN ACTUALLY DO BUSINESS
AND COMPETE WITH
OTHER JURISDICTIONS?
HOW WOULD YOU CREATE
THOSE JOBS THAT PEOPLE
SO DESPERATELY NEED?

Hugh says TRICKLE DOWN
HASN'T WORKED ANYWHERE.

Leslie says BUT HOW WOULD
YOU CREATE THE JOBS?
YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED
MY QUESTION.

Steve says WE'RE INTO OUR
LAST MINUTE, SO GO AHEAD.

Hugh says WHAT WORKS IN CREATING JOBS
IS WORKING PRODUCTIVELY AND
COOPERATIVELY WITH
PRIVATE ENTERPRISE.
THE KINDS OF PROGRAMS THAT
THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT HAD
IN PLACE THAT WERE WORKING,
AND THAT YOU GUYS ARE
JUST DESTROYING.
AND THERE'S GOING TO BE
A LOT OF COMPLAINTS...

Leslie says SO YOU WOULD SPEND
MORE MONEY, SPEND MORE
GOVERNMENT MONEY
TO CREATE JOBS?
IF THAT WORKED...

Hugh says I DID NOT
SAY THAT.

Leslie says IF THAT WORKED, WE
WOULDN'T HAVE A HUNDRED
THOUSAND FEWER JOBS IN
ONTARIO IN 1995 THAN
WE DID IN 1990.

Hugh says THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE WORKING IN ONTARIO
TODAY BECAUSE OF PROGRAMS
THAT THE PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT BROUGHT IN.
AND THAT THE PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT BROUGHT IN.
AND YOU GUYS ARE
ELIMINATING THOSE.

Dave says THE TAX CUT IS
IMPORTANT FOR JOB CREATION,
BUT TODAY, THIS YEAR, WE
FACE A 10.6 BILLION DOLLARS DEFICIT.
THAT'S A HUGE
AMOUNT THAT HAS TO BE
ADDRESSED THROUGH BRINGING
THE EXPENDITURES DOWN.

Hugh says I DON'T DISAGREE
WITH YOU AT ALL.
BUT I THINK IT'S JUST
PROFLIGATE FOR US TO BE
TALKING ABOUT TAKING
WHATEVER GAINS ARE MADE
FROM THIS HUGE PAIN THAT
YOU'RE INFLICTING AND JUST
THROWING THEM ALL
AWAY NEXT SPRING.

Leslie says AND GIVING IT BACK TO THE
PEOPLE WHO EARN THEM.

Steve says I'VE GOT TO BRING
THE GAVEL DOWN HERE.
THANKING DAVE JOHNSON, THE
CHAIR OF MANAGEMENT BOARD
WHICH I UNDERSTAND A LOT
BETTER NOW, FOR BEING HERE
TODAY, AND OUR THREE
PANELISTS AS WELL.
LESLIE, THANK YOU FOR
PINCH-HITTING FOR JANE.
I HAVE A RATHER SAD
DUTY TO DO HERE,
BUT LET'S DO
IT ANYWAY.
AS MANY OF YOU NO DOUBT
HEARD, THE SON OF FINANCE
MINISTER ERNIE EVES WAS
KILLED IN A CAR ACCIDENT
LAST WEEKEND.
JUSTIN EVES WAS JUST 23.
AND HIS DEATH PROMPTED
THESE POIGNANT WORDS OF
TRIBUTE IN THE
LEGISLATURE THIS WEEK.

A clip plays.

In the Legislature, a male politician says HE'S GOING TO BE VERY MUCH
MISSED, I BELIEVE, BY THOSE
WHO WILL NEVER HAVE HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW HIM
OR MEET HIM.
I THINK THAT HE WOULD HAVE
SENT RIPPLES THROUGH HIS
COMMUNITY BECAUSE OF HIS VERY
CARING AND VERY SHARING WAY.

The caption changes to "Lyn McLeod. Liberal Leader." Lyn is in her fifties with short curly gray hair.

Lyn says MISTER SPEAKER, I THINK EACH OF
US WHO IS A PARENT CAN ONLY
BEGIN TO IMAGINE THE KIND OF
ANGUISH THAT THE FAMILY IS
EXPERIENCING, BUT WE DID
WANT THEM TO KNOW, TODAY,
THAT THEY ARE IN THE
THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS OF ALL
OF US HERE IN
THIS LEGISLATURE.

Bob says ALL OF US HAVE AT DIFFERENT
TIMES IN OUR LIVES EXPERIENCED
GREAT SADNESS AND GREAT
LOSS, AND WE KNOW THAT
LIFE SOMETIMES HAS A WAY
OF BREAKING OUR HEARTS.
AND THIS IS WHAT'S HAPPENED
TO ERNIE AND TO VICKY,
AND TO NATALIE IN
THEIR LOSS OF JUSTIN.

The clip ends.

Steve says AND THOSE OF US AT TV ONTARIO
ALSO SEND OUR PRAYERS
AND SYMPATHIES TO THE
ENTIRE EVES FAMILY.
OKAY, THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
IF YOU'D LIKE TO WRITE
TO US, PLEASE DO SO AT:

The slate changes to "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario, M4T 2T1."

Steve continues OR ON THE COMPUTER
IN CYBER SPACE AT:

The slate changes to "Internet address studio2@tvo.org."

Steve concludes AND I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT TIME
FOR MORE
4th READING.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1995, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

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