Transcript: Show #38 | Oct 08, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
PROMISES TO KEEP.

In the Legislature, Elizabeth says
WE BELIEVE THAT THE CURRENT
LABOUR RELATIONS ACT
IS A BARRIER TO JOBS,
GROWTH, AND INVESTMENTS.

Steve says THE
TORIES ROLL BACK
THE NDP'S LABOUR
LAW REFORMS.

Sid says AND I WANT TO SAY TO THE
PUBLIC SECTOR EMPLOYERS,
DON'T EVEN DREAM OF
BRINGING SCABS
INTO OUR WORKPLACES.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray sweater under a dark gray vest.

Steve says SOME PEOPLE SAY WHEN THE
HISTORY BOOKS ARE WRITTEN
ABOUT THIS TIME IN ONTARIO,
IT WILL OVERWHELMINGLY
BE THE STORY OF LABOUR
VERSUS BUSINESS.
HI, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
WELCOME TO ANOTHER
EDITION OF 4TH READING.
THE TORIES HAVE MOVED ON
ONE OF THEIR KEY ELECTION
PROMISES, THAT BEING
TO SCRAP BILL 40,
THE CENTREPIECE OF THE
NDP'S LABOUR AGENDA.
AND THE TORIES
WENT FURTHER,
ROLLING BACK GAINS FOR
WORKERS DATING BACK
TO THE 1950s.
LET US TAKE A LOOK AT HOW
THE FIGHT BETWEEN LABOUR
AND BUSINESS HAS EVOLVED
IN ONTARIO OVER THE YEARS.

A clip plays.

Steve says IT'S IRONIC THAT THE TORIES
WOULD CHOOSE THIS FALL
TO ROLL BACK GAINS
MADE BY LABOUR,
FOR THIS IS THE 50TH
ANNIVERSARY OF THE STRIKE
THAT BOOSTED LABOUR'S
POWER IN ONTARIO
AND ACROSS THE
COUNTRY.
THE 1945 STRIKE IN WINDSOR
BY THE UNITED AUTO WORKERS
FORCED FORD TO ACCEPT
A CLOSED UNION SHOP
THROUGH A SETTLEMENT
IMPOSED BY SUPREME COURT
JUSTICE IVAN RAND.
IT WAS KNOWN AS
THE RAND FORMULA.
IT REQUIRED ALL WORKERS
EMPLOYED IN A UNION SHOP
TO PAY UNION DUES.
THE RAND FORMULA IS
THE BASIS OF MUCH
OF LABOUR'S POWER.
AND SUPPORT FOR UNIONS
INCREASED STEADILY DURING
THE TORIES 42-YEAR REIGN
UNDER PREMIERS LESLIE FROST,
JOHN ROBARTS,
AND BILL DAVIS.

A clip shows male workers at a car factory and two paintings of old men.

Cliff Pilkey sits in an office. He’s in his sixties, clean-shaven with receding white hair.

Cliff says CERTAINLY FROM
LABOUR'S POINT OF VIEW,
THERE'S BEEN SOME
PROGRESSIVE LEGISLATION
THAT HAS PASSED
THROUGH THE HOUSE.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Cliff Pilkey. Former President Ontario Federation of Labour."

Cliff continues IF I COULD JUST ALLUDE
TO SOME OF THOSE:
THE WHOLE QUESTION OF
OCCUPATION, HEALTH,
AND SAFETY
LEGISLATION;
THE CHECK OFF
OF UNION DUES;
EXPEDITED ARBITRATION.
A NUMBER OF THOSE THINGS
HAVE BEEN PRODUCTIVE
IN OUR VIEW.

Steve says BUT THE INTRODUCTION
OF THE NDP'S BILL 40
STRETCHED
BUSINESSES' PATIENCE
TO THE BREAKING POINT.

The caption changes to "Bob Mackenzie. Former NDP Labour Minister." Bob is in his mid-sixties, with white hair and clean-shaven.

Bob says ONTARIO'S FUTURE
PROSPERITY WILL BE BASED
ON SUCCESSFUL EFFORTS TO
MAXIMIZE THE ABILITY
OF ITS WORKERS TO PARTICIPATE
AND BE FAIRLY TREATED.
THIS GOVERNMENT BELIEVES
THAT ONTARIO CAN MOVE
A LONG WAY TOWARDS
ACHIEVING THAT GOAL
BY MAKING IT
EASIER FOR WORKERS
TO PARTICIPATE IN
COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.

Steve says IN 1993, THE
NDP'S BILL 40 BANNED
THE USE OF REPLACEMENT
WORKERS DURING STRIKES.
IT ALSO TOOK AWAY
MANY OBSTACLES
TO ORGANIZING UNIONS.
LABOUR SAID SCENES OF
PICKET LINE VIOLENCE
WOULD DISAPPEAR AS
REPLACEMENT WORKERS
WERE FORBIDDEN TO
CROSS PICKET LINES.
BUSINESS FOUGHT HARD
AGAINST THE IMPLEMENTATION
OF BILL 40 WITH AN
UNPRECEDENTED AD CAMPAIGN.

Workers hit a man in a van and the police repress a demonstration.
A Male Announcer says SCENES LIKE
THESE ARE ALL TOO
COMMON IN ONTARIO.

The caption changes to "Business Lobby Commercial."

The Male Announcer continues THANKS TO THE NDP'S
PROPOSED CHANGES
TO THE LABOUR LAWS IN
BILL 40, THE PROBLEMS
COULD BE MUCH WORSE.

A street poster reads "For Sale." A homeless man sits on the sidewalk patting a dog.

Steve says BUSINESS SAW
BILL 40 AS THE PAYOFF
TO LABOUR FOR ITS YEARS
OF SUPPORT FOR THE NDP.
BANNING REPLACEMENT WORKERS
HAD BEEN AT THE TOP
OF LABOUR'S WISH LIST.
BUT WHEN THE MIKE HARRIS
CONSERVATIVES WERE ELECTED,
BUSINESS HAD A WISH
LIST OF ITS OWN,
AND SCRAPPING
BILL 40 WAS ON IT.
THIS WEEK, BUSINESS
GOT THAT WISH.
FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN ONTARIO HISTORY,
A GOVERNMENT BEGAN THE
PROCESS OF TAKING AWAY
LABOUR RIGHTS.

Elizabeth says WE BELIEVE THAT THE CURRENT
LABOUR RELATIONS ACT
IS A BARRIER TO JOBS,
GROWTH, AND INVESTMENT.

The caption changes to "Elizabeth Witmer. Labour Minister." She’s in her forties with short brown hair.

Elizabeth continues IN A GLOBAL ECONOMY,
ONTARIO CANNOT AFFORD
TO BE PERCEIVED AS ANYTHING
LESS THAN WELCOMING
TO THE INITIATIVE,
THE IMAGINATION,
AND JOB CREATION POTENTIAL
OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

Steve says THE MINISTER
OF LABOUR SAYS HER
LEGISLATIVE PACKAGE
LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD.

Elizabeth says WE BELIEVE THAT THE
REPEAL OF THIS BILL
WILL RESTORE THE BALANCE
IN LABOUR RELATIONS.

Steve says BUSINESS SAYS
WITMER'S PACKAGE WILL BRING
MUCH NEEDED INVESTMENT
AND JOBS TO ONTARIO.
CANADIAN MANUFACTURER'S
PRESIDENT,
PAUL NYKANEN
MADE NO BONES ABOUT WHAT
PLEASES HIM THE MOST.

The caption changes to "Paul Nykanen. Canadian Manufacturers’ Association." He’s in his late sixties, with receding thin white hair and clean-shaven.

In an interview, Paul says THE REPEAL OF BILL 40 IS
THE SINGLE BEST THING THAT
HAS HAPPENED AND, YEAH,
I THINK IT'S A WONDERFUL
THING FOR ONTARIO.
WE'RE GOING TO SEE AN
ENTIRELY DIFFERENT OUTLOOK
AS FAR AS THE INVESTMENT
DECISIONS ARE CONCERNED,
AND WE'RE GOING TO GET AWAY
FROM THOSE QUIET DECISIONS
IN THE BOARDROOM WHERE
WE'RE GOING TO JUST MOVE ON
TO ANOTHER JURISDICTION.

Steve says BUT THE
PACKAGE GOES FURTHER.
IT LEGISLATES EVERYTHING
FROM SECRET BALLOT VOTES
FOR UNION CERTIFICATIONS
AND STRIKES TO MAKING
IT EASIER TO GET RID OF
ESTABLISHED UNIONS.
LABOUR SAYS IT WILL ALLOW
THE GOVERNMENT
TO PRIVATIZE PUBLIC
SECTOR JOBS.
IT ALSO TAKES THE RIGHT
TO JOIN A UNION AWAY FROM
DOMESTICS, FARM WORKERS,
AND PROFESSIONALS.
BUT THE LIBERALS PREDICT
INVESTORS WILL STAY AWAY
FROM ONTARIO BECAUSE OF
UNSTABLE LABOUR RELATIONS.

The caption changes to "Dwight Duncan. Liberal Labour Critic." He’s in his early forties, clean-shaven with combed brown hair.

Dwight says CLIMATES WHERE THERE'S
LABOUR INSTABILITY,
LABOUR UNREST, ARE
NOT HEALTHY CLIMATES
FOR INVESTMENT.
GOODNESS GRACIOUS,
SINCE BILL 40,
WE'VE SEEN A BOOM
IN INVESTMENT
IN THIS PROVINCE.
IN MY COMMUNITY ALONE
THERE'S BEEN OVER
5 BILLION DOLLARS IN AUTO
SECTOR INVESTMENTS.
THERE'S BEEN DECLINE
IN THE NUMBER
OF DAYS LOST
TO STRIKES.
THERE'S BEEN BETTER
LABOUR HARMONY
AND PEACE THAN THERE'S
BEEN IN MANY YEARS.

Steve says NDP LABOUR CRITIC
DAVID CHRISTOPHERSON
SEES A BIGGER
AGENDA AT WORK.

The caption changes to "David Christopherson. NDP Labour Criitc." He’s in his forties, with a moustache and brown hair.

In the Legislature, David says WITH THE FREEZING OF
MINIMUM WAGE AND
THE CUTTING BACK ON
SOCIAL SERVICES,
AND THE ATTACK ON THE POOR,
AND THE ABANDONMENT
OF CHILDREN, AND THAT'S A
LITANY OF THE THINGS THAT
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE,
THEY'RE CREATING A WORLD
OF DESPERATE WORKERS, AND
WHEN FACED WITH AN OPTION
OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE
GOING TO CROSS THAT LINE,
MANY WILL LOOK AT THEIR
FAMILIES AND SAY,
I HAVE NO CHOICE.
YOU DIRECTLY WILL BE
RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY
PERSON HURT ON A PICKET
LINE IN THIS PROVINCE
BECAUSE OF THE STEPS THAT
YOU'RE TAKING TODAY.

Steve says LABOUR
LEADERS SAY THEY'LL FIGHT
IN THE WORKPLACE FOR
ANYTHING TAKEN AWAY
BY THE TORIES'
LEGISLATION.

The caption changes to "Sid Ryan. President, Cupe Ontario." He’s in his mid-forties, with a short beard and blond hair.

Sid says IT WILL PROBABLY MARCH
US BACK INTO THE 1900s,
EARLY 1900s, WHERE
IT'LL BE NO CO-OPERATION
WITH THE EMPLOYERS
IN THE WORKPLACE.
I WOULD SUSPECT THAT
HEALTH AND SAFETY LEGISLATION
BECOMES A HUGE ISSUE.
IN ORDER WORDS,
WE'LL BE CALLING IN
THE MINISTRY
FOR EVERYTHING.
WE WILL BE USING
GUERILLA WARFARE TACTICS
IN THE WORKPLACE
BASICALLY.

The clip ends.

Back at the studio, Steve says OKAY, JUST BEFORE WE
START OUR DISCUSSION,
LET'S TAKE A LOOK INSIDE
OUR FACT FILE TO SEE
HOW BILL 40 AFFECTED LABOUR
RELATIONS IN ONTARIO.

A slate shows a red diamond that reads "Fact File."

Steve continues BILL 40 WAS PROCLAIMED
ON JANUARY 1ST, 1993.
IN THE TWO YEARS
FOLLOWING THAT,
THE NUMBER OF UNION
CERTIFICATIONS
INCREASED ABOUT 50 PERCENT.
NOW, IN 1992, THE NUMBER
OF PERSON DAYS
LOST DUE TO WORK
STOPPAGES WAS 591,000.
1993, THE YEAR BILL
40 WAS BROUGHT IN,
THE NUMBER DROPPED
TO 374,000.
BUT IT CREPT BACK
UP SOMEWHAT
TO 494,000 IN 1994.

The diamond opens, and the slate changes to show the data Steve mentioned.

Steve continues THESE FIGURES,
INCIDENTALLY, COURTESY
THE ONTARIO MINISTRY
OF LABOUR.
HERE TO TALK TO US ABOUT
THE EFFECTS THAT
ELIZABETH WITMER'S LABOUR
LAW CHANGES WILL HAVE
ARE TWO GUESTS WHOSE MEMBERS
WILL BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED.
GORDON WILSON IS THE
PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO
FEDERATION OF LABOUR.
CATHERINE SWIFT IS
PRESIDENT OF THE CANADIAN
FEDERATION OF
INDEPENDENT BUSINESS,
AND A WELCOME
TO BOTH OF YOU.
THANKS FOR BEING
HERE TODAY.
SHOULD WE INTRODUCE OUR
GANG HERE RIGHT NOW?
HERE THEY ARE,
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,
WHO ARE WE DOING FIRST?
HUGH MACKENZIE FROM THE
STEEL WORKERS UNION.
JANE PEPINO, LONG TIME
TORY ACTIVIST AND LAWYER.
PATRICK GOSSAGE, HEAD
OF MEDIA PROFILE,
LIBERAL LOVER.
OKAY.

They all laugh.

Steve sits with three panelists and two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve continues HERE'S MY FIRST QUESTION.
I KEEP HEARING OVER AND
OVER AGAIN THE NOTION THAT
SOMEHOW BILL 40 UNLEVELED
THE PLAYING FIELD
BETWEEN BUSINESS AND
LABOUR IN THIS PROVINCE.
CAN I JUST ASK THAT
FIRST, IF THE FIELD
IS NOW LEVELER
BECAUSE OF THIS?
CATHERINE SWIFT?

Catherine Swift is in her forties with short gray hair. She’s wearing a purple turtleneck sweater under a black blazer.

Catherine says THE SMALL BUSINESS
COMMUNITY IN ONTARIO
CERTAINLY FEELS THAT IT IS,
AND I THINK THE INTERESTING
THING WE HAVE HERE IS A
GOVERNMENT THAT SAID
IT WAS GOING TO
DO SOMETHING.

The caption changes to "Catherine Swift. President, CFIB."

Catherine continues THEY GOT VOTED IN WITH A
STRONG MAJORITY GOVERNMENT,
AND THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY
SAID THEY WERE GOING TO DO.
AND WE FIND AS A GROUP
THAT'S BEEN AROUND
FOR GOVERNMENTS OVER THE YEARS
AND AT FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL
ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND SO
ON THAT WHEN ANY PIECE
OF LEGISLATION IS PUSHED
THROUGH IN A WAY THAT'S
SORT OF ILLEGITIMATE,
AND THAT WAS VERY MUCH
THE CASE WITH BILL 40.

Steve says WHAT WAS
ILLEGITIMATE ABOUT IT?

Catherine says WELL, THERE REALLY WASN'T,
THERE WASN'T ANY KIND OF,
I WON'T SAY WE COULD
EVER HAVE REACHED CONSENSUS
BECAUSE I JUST DON'T
THINK THAT'S REALISTIC,
BUT IT REALLY WAS FOISTED
THROUGH BY A MINORITY
OF THE SUPPORT IN THE
POPULATION GENERALLY.
I THINK THERE'S COMPARABLE
LEGISLATION IN OTHER
JURISDICTIONS AND WE FIND
THAT WHENEVER THE PROCESS
IS SORT OF BOGUS LIKE THAT,
ULTIMATELY IT'S GOING TO BE
UNWOUND AND IT'LL
TAKE SOME TIME,
MAYBE THERE WILL BE A NEW
GOVERNMENT OR WHATEVER,
BUT ULTIMATELY
IT'LL BE UNWOUND,
AND I THINK BILL 40 FALLS
INTO THAT CATEGORY.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THE
PLAYING FIELD IS MORE
LEVEL NOW IN ONTARIO?

Gord Wilson is in his late fifties, clean-shaven with brown hair. He’s wearing a dark suit, white shirt and dotted purple tie.

Gord says NO, I THINK BILL 40 WAS
DESIGNED TO TRY AND ADDRESS
THE NEW EMERGING WORKPLACES
IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
WHERE PEOPLE WOULD BE
MORE AND MORE EMPLOYED
IN THE RETAIL SECTOR, THE
PRIVATE SERVICE SECTOR,
AND IT WAS DESIGNED, NOT
FOR WORKERS AT STELCO
AND GENERAL MOTORS, BUT
RATHER TO GIVE WORKERS
ON THE MARGIN, PART-TIME
WORKERS - WORKERS WHO MOSTLY
WERE WOMEN, MANY WERE
IMMIGRANTS - EMPLOYED
IN THOSE SECTORS AN
OPPORTUNITY TO JOIN A UNION
WHERE HERETOFORE THERE HAD
BEEN SO MANY OBSTACLES
IN PREVENTING THEM
TO GET TO THAT GOAL
IF THEY WISHED TO DO IT.

The caption changes to "Gord Wilson. President, Ontario Federation of Labour."

Gord continues AND THAT WAS THE
DESIGN OF BILL 40.
AND SO I WOULD ARGUE
THAT WHAT BILL 40
DID WAS LEVEL THE
PLAYING FIELD.
IT RECOGNIZED THAT WORKERS
HAD A RIGHT TO JOIN
A UNION, NOT JUST
EXISTING ON PAPER,
BUT RATHER IN
PRACTICE AS WELL.

Steve says JANE, YOU CAN TELL THAT THE
LINE FROM ORGANIZED LABOUR
HAS BEEN - THIS NOT ONLY
ROLLS THE CALENDAR BACK
TO BEFORE THE
CONSERVATIVES TOOK OFFICE,
BUT IT ROLLS IT BACK BEFORE
BILL DAVIS AND JOHN ROBARTS
AND LESLIE FROST
TOOK OFFICE.

Jane Pepino is in her forties with short gray hair. She’s wearing a patterned gray and black blazer over a black shirt and big earrings.

Jane says RIGHT.

Steve continues THIS IS SOMEHOW A
ROLLBACK SO DRAMATIC THAT
WE'RE GOING BACK 50 YEARS
IN LABOUR RELATIONS.
IS THAT ACCURATE?

Jane says NO, I DON'T
THINK IT IS.

The caption changes to "Jane Pepino."

Jane continues I THINK THAT TO THE EXTENT
THAT THERE ARE CHANGES THAT
ARE BEYOND SIMPLE REPEAL
OF THE BILL 40 PROVISIONS.
IT'S FRANKLY TO BRING
LABOUR LAW UP TO DATE.
I MEAN, IT IS - IF
IT'S 50 YEARS OLD,
IT PROBABLY BEARS
LOOKING AT AGAIN.
BUT ALSO TO ENSURE THAT
ONTARIO INTERNATIONALLY
AND NATIONALLY IS MORE OR
LESS COMPARABLE
WITH TRADING PARTNERS, AND
THERE ARE SOME HISTORIC
ANOMALIES THAT WE'VE HAD.
I THINK THE THING THAT,
ABOUT THE LABOUR LINE
THOUGH THAT I FIND
LESS THAN FORTHCOMING
IS THAT IT'S NOT
SIMPLY THE CHANGES
THAT MISTER WILSON'S
DESCRIBED.
BUT ALSO THE REPEAL OF
THE PROVISIONS THAT BARS
REPLACEMENT WORKERS,
FOR EXAMPLE.
THAT WAS A MAJOR UNLEVELLING
OF THE FIELD BY BILL 40
IN MY JUDGMENT, AND I DON'T
UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS LABOUR
ISN'T WILLING TO CELEBRATE
OPEN DEMOCRATIC -
I'M SORRY, AN OPEN AND
DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM BY
WAY OF A SECRET BALLOT.

Hugh is in his forties, clean-shaven with receding curly hair. He’s wearing round glasses, a beige suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

Hugh interrupts her and says I'M GLAD
YOU SAID THAT.
THIS BUSINESS
OF WORKPLACE -

Jane laughs and says WHY IS IT THAT DEMOCRACY
WORKS BY SECRET BALLOT
EVERYWHERE BUT OTHER THAN
IN CERTIFICATIONS
AND DECERTIFICATIONS?

Gord says WELL, BECAUSE VOTERS AREN'T
INTIMIDATED IN A MATTER...
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND,
JANE, AND I THINK YOU DO,
THAT IN THE BILL 40 DEBATE,
THIS WAS A MAJOR DEMAND
OF THE EMPLOYERS WANTING
THE NDP GOVERNMENT
TO PUT THAT IN PLACE.
IN FACT IT WAS A MAJOR
DEMAND MADE OF LESLIE FROST
AND DAVID PETERSON.

Jane says WHAT,
A SECRET BALLOT?

Gord says SURE IT WAS.

Ironically, Jane says OF COURSE.

Gord continues EMPLOYERS HAVE DEMANDED
THIS AND GOVERNMENTS HAVE
RESISTED IT BECAUSE THEY
KNEW THAT IN THE PROVISION
OF A SECRET BALLOT, IF YOU
LOOK AT THE EXPERIENCE
IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT
PARTNER THAT EVERYONE LIKES
TO POINT TO IN THE BUSINESS
COMMUNITY AS A MODEL
OF PERFECTION IN THE MARKET
MODEL, THE REALITY IS,
IT TAKES TWO YEARS FROM THE
TIME THAT WORKERS APPLY
FOR CERTIFICATION ON AVERAGE
UNTIL THEY ARE CERTIFIED.
IN THAT TWO-YEAR PERIOD,
THEIR SUCCESS RATE
IS NOT VERY GOOD.
WORKERS ARE HARASSED,
THEY'RE INTIMIDATED.
THEY'RE DISCOURAGED IN MANY
WAYS BY THE EMPLOYERS.
THIS GOVERNMENT IS NOW
PROPOSING A FIVE-DAY PERIOD,
BUT THAT'S
NOT THE PROBLEM.
IT'S THE THRESHOLD
UP FRONT.

Jane says SURELY THOUGH A
SECRET BALLOT
WOULD PROTECT THOSE WORKERS
FROM INTIMIDATION.

Gord says THERE'S NO GUARANTEE
YOU CAN GET TO A VOTE.

Catherine says FROM THE SMALL BUSINESS
STANDPOINT, I MEAN,
IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT
SITUATION THAN
GENERAL MOTORS OR WHATEVER.
AND WE HAVE FIVE PERSON
COMPANIES COMING UP AGAINST
BIG POWERFUL UNIONS AND
THE BALANCE OF POWER
IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT
IN THAT SITUATION.
ONE THING BILL 40 DID
WAS DEFINITELY HAD
A DIFFERENTIAL IMPACT ON
FACILITATING VERY MUCH
EASING THE CERTIFICATION
OF SMALLER ENTERPRISES
AND I THINK IT'S
INTERESTING.
WHEN YOU SEE THE IMBALANCE,
I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT
CERTIFICATION NUMBERS
VERSUS DECERTIFICATION,
I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY DATA ON
DECERTIFICATION BUT
I HAVE YET TO HEAR OF ONE
CASE OF DECERTIFICATION.
AND WHEN SOMETHING IS
SO EASED ONE WAY AND
YET VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE
THE OTHER WAY,
I THINK THAT'S
AN IMBALANCE.

Hugh says THE RULES ARE
COMPLETELY BALANCED.
THE FACT THAT THERE AREN'T
VERY MANY DECERTIFICATIONS
HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT
THAT UNIONS GENERALLY
SPEAKING DO A GOOD JOB AND
DON'T GET DECERTIFIED.

The caption changes to "Hugh Mackenzie. Former Aide to Bob Rae."

Catherine says THEN
WHY ARE YOU AFRAID
OF A SECRET BALLOT
IF THAT'S THE CASE?
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE
GIVING PEOPLE CHOICE.

Gord says WE'RE
AFRAID OF THE FACT
THAT WE CAN'T GET TO A
SECRET BALLOT, NUMBER 1.
IF YOU READ THE
LEGISLATION VERY CLOSELY,
THE DECISION OF THE
40 PERCENT THRESHOLD
IS LEFT TO THE
VICE-CHAIR.
WE KNOW THAT GOVERNMENT
IS MOVING NOW TO TURF OUT
WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO
BE PINKOS WITHIN
THE LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD.
THAT'S WHY THEY THROUGH
OUT JUDITH MCCORMACK
AND SOON TO BE OTHERS.
AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT WILL
BE REPLACING THEM
WILL BE REPRESENTATIVES
OF BUSINESS COMMUNITY.
SO I'M A UNION.
I COME TO THIS
GUY AND I SAY,
I'VE GOT 42 PERCENT OF THE
WORKERS, I WANT TO VOTE.
AND HE LOOKS AT MY
CARDS AND HE SAYS,
I DON'T AGREE
WITH YOU.
IN THE ACT, THERE IS
NO AVENUE OF APPEAL.
NO AVENUE OF APPEAL.

Catherine says
SOUNDS LIKE BILL 40,
THERE WAS NO AVENUE OF
APPEAL FOR EMPLOYERS
[laughing]

Gord says WELL, BUT YOU MAKE THAT
CASE, THERE ALWAYS IS.
THE WORKERS ARE THE AVENUE
OF APPEAL AND THAT'S
WHY HUGH'S POINT HAS TO BE
TAKEN IN CONSIDERATION.
BUT THE REASON THERE AREN'T
MANY DECERTIFICATIONS IS
UNIONS USUALLY DO A DECENT
JOB IN REPRESENTING
THEIR MEMBERSHIP.

Catherine says IT'S VIRTUALLY
IMPOSSIBLE TO DECERTIFY.
I KNOW MANY,
MANY INSTANCES.

Gord says CATHERINE,
THAT'S NOT TRUE.
WORKERS WHO WANT TO GET
OUT OF A UNION CAN DO SO.

Catherine says IN ONTARIO.

Gord continues ON THE ANNIVERSARY DATE
OF THEIR AGREEMENT.
LEGISLATION
PROVIDES THAT.

Steve says PATRICK.

Patrick Gossage is in his late forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing glasses, a green shirt and checked jacket.

Patrick says A COUPLE OF THINGS.
I'M A SMALL
BUSINESS PERSON.
Steve says UN-UNIONIZED, RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Patrick Gossage. President, Media Profile."

Patrick says WELL OF COURSE I'M
UN-UNIONIZED BECAUSE
I PAY MY PEOPLE PROPERLY.
NO, NO, BUT I THINK IT'S
A BIT OF A BOGUS
ISSUE TO SAY THAT SMALL
BUSINESS PEOPLE
ON THE WHOLE, YOU KNOW,
ARE AFRAID OF BILL 40.
I MEAN, THE FACT OF THE
MATTER IS THAT SMALL
BUSINESS PEOPLE THAT PAY
THEIR WORKERS PROPERLY,
THAT AREN'T RUNNING LITTLE
GARMENT SWEAT SHOPS.

Catherine says THAT IS SUCH
A BOGUS.

Patrick continues AND TREAT THEM
PROPERLY ARE NOT GOING
TO BE WORRIED ABOUT
A UNION, NUMBER 1.

Catherine says YOU HAVE NO
PROOF OF THAT.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY
INACCURATE.
WE DID A PUBLIC
OPINION POLL.

Patrick says WHO ARE YOU GOING
TO ORGANIZE?

Catherine continues WE DID A PUBLIC
OPINION POLL,
AND THIS WASN'T
CONDUCTED BY US.
WE HAD ONE OF THE
PREVAILING POLLING FIRMS
DO IT A NUMBER OF
YEARS AGO, OF WORKERS.
NOT OF EMPLOYERS.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT, SMALL
BUSINESS OWNERS CAME OUT
WAY BETTER THAN BIG
BUSINESS AND EVEN UNIONIZED
SHOPS IN THE EYES
OF EMPLOYEES.
SO IT'S A CROCK -

Patrick says BUT THAT'S MY POINT.
THAT'S EXACTLY
MY POINT.
YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME.

Catherine says THAT SMALL BUSINESS
OWNERS ARE GOOD EMPLOYERS.
THAT'S MY POINT.

Patrick says WELL, THAT'S WHY I
THINK IT'S A BOGUS ISSUE
TO SAY THAT SMALL
BUSINESS OWNERS
WERE AFFECTED
BY BILL 40.
I DON'T THINK
THEY WERE AT ALL.

Catherine says I KNOW MANY
THAT WERE.
WHEN YOU HAVE BIG POWERFUL
UNIONS COMING IN WHOSE ONLY
OBJECTIVE IS TO INCREASE
THEIR MEMBERSHIP
AND THEREFORE THEIR
DUES AND THEREFORE
THE SALARIES OF THE -

Steve says OKAY, Mr. WILSON.

[everyone talking at once]

Steve says GORDON WILSON.

Gord says I WANT TO RAISE
A QUESTION.
I WATCHED THE MINISTER
IN THE HOUSE RISING
TO HER FEET AND SAYING -

Steve says ELIZABETH
WITMER.

Gord continues SAYING THAT THE - IF
THAT'S HER NAME BECAUSE
WHERE IS SHE TONIGHT?
I MEAN, IT'S HER BILL AND
IF THIS IS GOING TO PROVIDE
JOB AND IT'S GOING TO
INCREASE PROFITABILITY
AND EXPAND THE ECONOMY, WHERE'S
ELIZABETH WITMER TONIGHT?
IF IS SUCH A GOOD BILL,
WHY ISN'T SHE HERE
ON THIS SHOW MAKING
THOSE POINTS?
BECAUSE SHE'S
IN THE CLOSET.

Steve says AM I ALLOWED TO SAY?
HANG ON, HANG ON.
LET ME GO TO THE
CONTROL ROOM.
AM I ALLOWED TO SAY?

Gordon says HAND ON
FOR A MINUTE, STEVEN.

Steve says OKAY, I'M
ALLOWED TO SAY.

Gord says SHE WAS INVITED;
DIDN'T SHOW UP.

Steve says SHE WAS INVITED,
WOULDN'T SHOW UP.

Gord says AND THAT'S RIGHT.
BUT MY POINT HERE IS THAT
THE EVIDENCE DOES NOT
SUPPORT THE REASONS
THAT THE GOVERNMENT,
THROUGH THE MINISTER,
BROUGHT FORTH TO THE HOUSE
AS THE PURPOSE FOR THE
INTRODUCTION OF THIS BILL.
IT WAS BECAUSE PROFITS
WERE NOT OUT THERE.
WELL, THAT'S
NOT TRUE.
PROFITS ARE AT THE
HIGHEST LEVEL SINCE
BILL 40 WAS
INTRODUCED IN 1993.

Steve says SO WHAT'S THE
REAL AGENDA?

Catherine says I WISH MY MEMBERS
COULD FEEL THAT.
I REALLY DO.

Gord says WELL, I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT
MINISTRY OF LABOUR FIGURES.

Catherine says WE'RE
NOT BANKS, SO, YOU KNOW.

Gord says WELL, THEY ARE THE
MINISTRY'S FIGURES.
ON THE QUESTION OF GROWTH IN
ONTARIO IN 1994, 5.5 PERCENT,
THE HIGHEST OF ANY OF
THE SEVEN IN THE OACD.

Steve says SO WHAT'S REALLY
GOING ON HERE?

Patrick says IT'S AN
IDEOLOGICAL ISSUE.

Gord says LET ME GET TO IT.
I MEAN, WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT PROFITABILITY,
PROFITS ARE UP.
INVESTMENT THAT
EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT;
THE INVESTMENT IN ONTARIO
IN THE LAST TWO YEARS
IS THE HIGHEST LEVEL
IT'S BEEN SINCE 1980-81.
AND WHAT ABOUT THE
QUESTION OF JOBS?

Patrick says UNIONIZED BY
LARGE COMPANIES.

Gord continues WHAT ABOUT JOBS?
THERE'S BEEN, BY THE
MINISTRY'S OWN FIGURES,
178,000 JOBS HAVE
BEEN CREATED SINCE
JANUARY 1ST, 1993.
NOW SO IS THIS A BAD
SCENARIO WE HAVE TO CHANGE?
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT
THE MINISTER'S SAYING,
THAT THAT'S NOT
ACCEPTABLE.

Steve says THE MINISTER
PRODUCED A LETTER
DURING QUESTION
PERIOD ON THURSDAY
WHICH SAID, HERE'S A LETTER
FROM THE HUDSON BAY COMPANY
WHICH HAS NOW SAID, BECAUSE
WE'RE REPEALING BILL 40,
WE'RE GOING TO GO AHEAD
WITH A MULTI-MULTI-MEGA
MILLION DOLLAR DEVELOPMENT
THAT WE OTHERWISE
WOULD NOT HAVE DONE.

Jane says AND I THINK THAT'S
SO MUCH - THAT'S
SO MUCH OF WHAT'S
IMPORTANT.
IN POLITICS, REALITY,
PERCEPTION
CAN BECOME REALITY.
AND THE FACT IS, RIGHT,
WRONG, OR INDIFFERENT,
AT LEAST ON THIS POINT,
BILL 40 WAS PERCEIVED
NATIONALLY AND
INTERNATIONALLY AS BEING
SOMETHING THAT WAS DAMAGING
TO ONTARIO'S ECONOMY.

Steve says HOW DO YOU
KNOW THAT?
LET'S FIND OUT.

[everyone talking at once]

Hugh says THERE
ISN'T ANY EVIDENCE.

Steve says HOW DO WE KNOW THAT?

Jane says WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE AS
PEOPLE CLOSED THE DOORS
ON PLANTS IN THIS
PROVINCE, THEY SAID,
WE'RE GOING TO
THE UNITED STATES.
GAVE A NUMBER OF
REASONS, ONE OF WHICH
WOULD BE BILL 40.

Gord says YEAH,
BUT WHY, JANE?

Jane continues IT WAS SEEN AS BEING AN
EXAMPLE OF AN ENVIRONMENT
THAT WAS HOSTILE
TO INVESTMENT.

Gord says BUT HOW COULD THAT BE SO
IF YOU'RE MAKING MONEY?
I MEAN, EXECUTIVE
COMPENSATION WAS
UP
18 PERCENT LAST YEAR.

Jane says A LOT OF PEOPLE WEREN'T
AND WITH THE GREATEST
OF RESPECT, I MEAN, THOSE
FIGURES CAN STAND FOR
ANY ARGUMENT YOU
WANT TO MAKE.
JANE, IF WE'RE GOING
TO TALK ABOUT A LOT
OF PEOPLE, LET ME MAKE
THIS POINT THOUGH.

Gord says WE'RE GOING TO TALK
ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE,
THEN LET'S TALK ABOUT ALL
THE PEOPLE THAT
NO LONGER HAVE JOBS.

Jane says YES.

Gord says BECAUSE THEY'RE PEOPLE
WHOSE PROBLEMS
HAVEN'T BEEN ADDRESSED.
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TO
ME IS SOMEHOW BILL 40
IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE
PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO
ARE NOT BEING PROFITABLE
IN THEIR CORPORATIONS
OR THEIR COMPANIES.

Jane says NO, I THINK INSTEAD
WHAT I SAY TO YOU,
IF YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THE JOBLESS,
I DON'T KNOW HOW BILL 40
WAS GOING TO ASSIST
THOSE PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT GOING TO REQUIRE
THAT NEW WORKERS BE HIRED.
IT'S NOT GOING TO REQUIRE
THROUGH ADDITIONAL
CERTIFICATIONS OF THINGS
THAT PEOPLE SOMEHOW OR -

Gord says WELL THEN, LET'S PUSH YOUR
POINT TO THE CONCLUSION THEN.
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS
IF THE ENVIRONMENT
FOR BUSINESS IS
FRIENDLY ENOUGH,
THIS INVESTMENT
WOULD TAKE PLACE.
WELL.

Jane says THAT'S THE HOPE AND
EXPECTATION, YEAH.

Gord continues WHO ARE WE
COMPETING WITH THEN?
ARE WE COMPETING
WITH SOUTH CAROLINA,
WHO IN TURN COMPETES
WITH MEXICO,
WHO IN TURN COMPETE
WILL MALAYSIA?

Jane says WE DON'T HAVE THAT
KIND OF ECONOMY.

Gord says WAIT A MINUTE NOW, LET ME
FOLLOW YOUR CONCLUSION.

Jane says PLEASE FOLLOW
IT ACCURATELY.

Gord says YOU HAVE TRANS NATIONAL
CORPORATIONS WITH
THE MOBILITY OF CAPITAL
KNOCK DOWN PLANTS,
AND GO UP OVER A WEEKEND,
SO IF I CAN DO BETTER
IN MALAYSIA, THEN I HAVE TO -
IN ORDER TO OPERATE HERE,
I'M GOING TO SAY TO THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO,
THE CONDITIONS FOR
WORKING PEOPLE MUST BE
THE SAME AS THEY ARE -

Jane says THAT'S NOT OUR
GROWTH SECTOR AND I
BELIEVE YOU KNOW THAT.
I DO BELIEVE
YOU KNOW THAT.

Gord says I'M SURE ALL
OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT
ARE LOOKING FOR JOBS ARE
COMFORTED BY THAT STATEMENT.

Steve says AS LONG AS WE'RE
PRODUCING LETTERS HERE,
DWIGHT DUNCAN, WHO WE SAW
IN THE BACKGROUND PIECE,
THE LIBERAL MEMBER
FROM WINDSOR,
I BELIEVE SAID IN
THE HOUSE THIS WEEK,
I'VE GOT A LETTER HERE FROM
CHRYSLER WHICH IS SAYING
SCRAPPING BILL 40 IS
REALLY NOT AT THE TOP
OF OUR AGENDA.
WE'RE MORE INTERESTED IN
LABOUR PEACE WE'VE GOT -

Gord says IT CAME
FROM MCDONNELL DOUGLAS.

Steve says AND MCDONNELL
DOUGLAS IS SAYING?

Catherine says WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION
THAT THE BIG UNIONS -
THE BIG UNIONS HAVE BEEN
LEANING VERY HEAVILY
AND THREATENING, INDEED,
THESE LARGE CORPORATIONS.
THAT'S VERY CLEAR AND
INDEED HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED,
AND SOME OF THEM CAVED.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY
CLEARER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT.

Patrick says I DON'T THINK
THAT'S TRUE, CATHERINE.
I THINK IN LARGE
CORPORATIONS THAT WHERE
IT'S WORKING - HANG ON.
THE FUTURE OF LABOUR
MANAGEMENT RELATIONS
IS IN CO-OPERATION AND
PEACE AND IN SHARING,
YOU KNOW, AND IN
SHARING OF INFORMATION
WITH YOUR WORKERS
AND SO ON.

Catherine says WELL, I THINK
THAT'S VERY TRUE.

Patrick continues AND I THINK WE SHOULDN'T
OVERLOOK WHAT'S HAPPENED
WITH THE AUTO WORKERS.
WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH
THE STEEL WORKERS.
CANADIAN AIRLINES IS OWNED
BY ITS UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES.
I MEAN, HOW COME NOW AT
THIS POINT PRECIPITOUSLY
THE GOVERNMENT'S DOING
SOMETHING WHICH IS
GOING TO LEAD TO
LABOUR UNREST.
IT'S GOING TO
LEAD TO TROUBLE.
IT'S GOING TO LEAD TO
PERHAPS EVEN VIOLENCE.
IS THAT GOING
TO CREATE JOBS?
IS THAT GOING TO
CREATE AN ATMOSPHERE?
LET ME FINISH.
IS THAT GOING TO CREATE AN
ATMOSPHERE THAT PEOPLE
WANT TO INVEST IN
ONTARIO?
WHY DID IT HAVE
TO BE DONE NOW?

Steve says THAT'S THE POINT THESE
EXECUTIVES ARE MAKING.

Catherine says YEAH, THE QUESTION HERE IS
OF COURSE HOW WILL THIS
ALL UNFOLD, AND I THINK WE DO
HAVE TO COME IN A YEAR
OR WHATEVER AND SEE
THAT, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW
WE HAVE A LOT OF HYPERBOLE
FROM THE UNIONS.
I THINK THE UNIONS
WOULD ARGUE AND - NO,
I WAS JUST ABOUT TO SAY,
IF YOU'D LET ME FINISH -
THAT I REMEMBER GORD
ACCUSING ME OF HYPERBOLE
BACK IN 1992 AND I SUPPOSE
HYPERBOLE IS RELATIVE,
VERY MUCH RELATIVE.
AND BUT I THINK YOU HAVE
TO SEE THE PROOF IN
THE PUDDING AND I THINK THE
OTHER THING TO KEEP
IN PERSPECTIVE HERE IS
BILL 40 WAS ONE OF A WHOLE
RANGE OF THINGS.
WE HEARD IN THE INTRO ABOUT
A REDUCTION IN DAYS LOST
DUE TO WORK STOPPAGES, AND
OF COURSE IN RECESSIONS,
THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS.
WE HAD A HORRIFIC
RECESSION.
WE HAVE A LOW DOLLAR
WHICH BOOSTS OUR EXPORTS.
WE HAVE A MILLION
FACTORS THAT INFLUENCE
THE ENVIRONMENT.
BILL 40 IS ONE OF A
WHOLE RANGE OF THEM,
AND I THINK WHAT THIS
GOVERNMENT IS TRYING
TO DO IN ONTARIO NOW IS
REALLY SEND OUT A LOT
OF SIGNALS THAT ARE
ENCOURAGING TO BUSINESS,
ENCOURAGING TO
INVESTMENT.
IF JOBS ARE CREATED,
THAT'S VERY MUCH
TO THE BENEFIT
OF WORKERS.

Gord says YOU CAN GIVE US ALL KINDS
OF JOBS AT 2 DOLLARS AN HOUR,
BUT PEOPLE CAN'T RAISE
THEIR FAMILIES ON THAT.

Catherine says NOBODY'S
PAYING 2 DOLLARS AN HOUR.

Gord says WELL, THEY WILL BE SOON.

Catherine says
THAT'S LUDICROUS.

Gord says NO, IT ISN'T
LUDICROUS.
THAT'S THE PHILOSOPHY
BEHIND THE REMOVAL
OF THE EMPLOYMENT
STANDARD INSPECTORS.
YOU CAN'T POLICE
MINIMUM WAGE.

Catherine says WE TALK ABOUT THE NOTION OF
HARMONY IN THE WORKPLACE
BEING BENEFICIAL TO
EMPLOYERS AND EMPLOYEES.
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY
WOULD ARGUE WITH THAT.
MOST SMALL BUSINESS, HALF
OF OUR MEMBERS
HAVE FEWER THAN
FIVE EMPLOYEES.
THEY SEE THEIR
EMPLOYEES EVERY DAY.
IT'S A WHOLE
DIFFERENT SCENARIO,
AND THE KIND OF TALK
YOU'RE PUTTING FORWARD
NOW FOSTERS ANTAGONISM.
AND SO I FAIL TO SEE
WHAT THAT ACCOMPLISHES.

Gordon says HOW MANY
OF MEMBERS JOINED UNIONS?
NOT MANY.

Steve says AT THE RISK OF HAVING
HAPPEN WHAT I'M ABOUT
TO ASK ABOUT, VIOLENCE.
DAY 1 AT QUEEN'S PARK
WAS PRETTY SCARY.
I THINK EVERYBODY
ACKNOWLEDGES THAT,
LOT OF BLOOD.
MOST OF IT BROUGHT ON,
IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED,
AND MORE TO COME, IT
HAS BEEN SUGGESTED,
BY SOME IN THE
LABOUR MOVEMENT
IF THIS BILL 40
SCRAPPING GOES AHEAD.
QUESTION.
WILL IT HAVE BEEN WORTH
IT TO SCRAP BILL 40
IF WE GET BLOOD IN
THE STREETS?

Patrick says WELL, BUT LET'S TAKE
A SCENARIO OF
A DEPARTMENT STORE, SAY
THAT WAS AT THE POINT
OF GETTING CERTIFIED AND
MAYBE BILL 40 HELPED.
MAYBE IT DIDN'T.
IT PROBABLY HELPED.
AND SUDDENLY YOU'RE
TOLD THAT IT'S OVER.
WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT THAT BEFORE.
IT'S OVER.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO FEEL
IF YOU'RE A CLERK AT
A DEPARTMENT STORE THAT'S
MAKING, WHAT, MINIMUM WAGE,
AND WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO
LIKE SEVEN OR EIGHT
BIG BUCKS AN HOUR,
STEVE, I MEAN,
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT.
AND NOW THEY'RE REDUCED
TO NOTHING TO DO.
IT'S HOPELESS.
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET
A LOT OF HAPPY PEOPLE.

Steve says WILL IT HAVE BEEN WORTH
SCRAPPING BILL 40?
YES, THE CONSERVATIVES
WILL HAVE KEPT AN ELECTION
PROMISE, AND YES,
BUSINESS WILL BE HAPPIER.
BUT WILL THEY BE HAPPIER
IF WE SEE PICTURES
ON THE EVENING NEWS OF
PEOPLE VIOLENTLY
GETTING BLOODIED ALL
OVER THE PLACE?

Catherine says WHY IS IT THAT ONE GROUP
OF PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE
THE RIGHT TO BE VIOLENT IF
THEY DON'T GET THEIR WAY?
I MEAN, BUSINESS
WASN'T OUT BERSERK
ON THE LAWN OF
QUEEN'S PARK.

Steve says ACTUALLY, THEY WERE.

Catherine continues BACK WHEN BILL
40 WAS PASSED.

Patrick says
THEY WERE, ACTUALLY.

Catherine says I DON'T REMEMBER
ANY BLOOD.
I DON'T REMEMBER
ANY BLOOD AND GUTS.
[everyone talking at once]

Steve says SHE'S RIGHT,
THERE WAS NO BLOOD.

Catherine says THEY WEREN'T
HITTING THE POLICE.

[everyone talking at once]

Catherine continues THEY WEREN'T THROWING STONES
AND BEHAVING LIKE IDIOTS.

Steve says HUGH, HUGH.

Hugh says THEY ARRIVED IN
TAXIS, I SAW THEM.

Catherine says MAYBE THAT
WAS THE BAY STREET BOYS,
BUT IT WASN'T
MY CONSTITUENCY,
I'LL TELL YOU.

Steve says AND THEY WERE BANGING
THEM AGAINST THE -

Gordon says DON'T
TURN ON YOUR OWN.

Catherine says MY OWN ARE
NOT THE BAY STREET BOYS.

Gord says WHY IS EVERYBODY FOCUSED
ON RUCKUSES THAT HAPPEN
ON OCCASION IN
PICKET LINES?

Steve says WELL,
BECAUSE PEOPLE GET HURT.

Gord says THAT'S RIGHT.
AND WHEN A WORKER IS IN
FRONT OF PLANT PICKETING
AND SOMEBODY COMES
UP AND BEANS HIM,
THEN YOU CAN BE SURE
HE'S GOING TO TRY TO
BEAN YOU BACK.
SAME WAY YOU WOULD IN
YOUR OWN NEIGHBOURHOOD.
LET ME SUGGEST TO YOU THAT
NOBODY IS MORE GUILTY
OF VIOLENCE THAN
THIS GOVERNMENT,
BECAUSE THEY ARE
PERPETRATING A MEASURE
OF SOCIAL VIOLENCE
THAT I'VE NEVER SEEN
IN MY LIFETIME IN
THIS PROVINCE.
AND YOU TELL ME WHAT
VIOLENCE IS GREATER,
STEVEN, TAKING FOOD
OUT OF KIDS' MOUTHS,
TAKING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR
HOMES AND TURFING THEM OUT
ON THE STREET, BECAUSE
THAT'S THE KIND OF ONTARIO
YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IN
FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS
IN THE PROVINCE.

Catherine says WELL, WE'LL SEE.
IF THOSE PEOPLE GET
EMPLOYED AND IF WE HAVE
A HEALTHIER ECONOMY
IN THIS PROVINCE.

Gord says WHY
DON'T YOU HIRE THEM?

Catherine says WELL, WE WILL
HIRE THEM.
INDEED WE WILL
HIRE THEM.

Hugh says THE ONE THING I DON'T
FEEL TOO BADLY ABOUT,
AS I HAVE TO SAY, I
DON'T FEEL SINGLED OUT.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE WEEK
WHEN ONTARIO GOT CHAIN GANGS
IN EASTERN ONTARIO
AND STARTED BRACELETS
FOR PEOPLE WHO WOULD
OTHERWISE BE RE-INTEGRATED
INTO SOCIETY FROM PRISON,
AND WHAT WAS THE OTHER
GREAT ONE?
OH, YES, AND WE STARTING
BEATING UP ON BATTERED WOMEN.
SO IN THAT KIND OF A WEEK,
I GUESS WE DON'T FEEL
PARTICULARLY SINGLED
OUT I HAVE TO SAY.
BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS,
WHAT THIS IS REALLY
ABOUT IS THIS IS ABOUT
REDUCING WORKERS' WAGES.
IT'S ABOUT REDUCING
WORKERS' BARGAINING
POWER RELATIVE TO
EMPLOYERS.
IT'S ABOUT INCREASING
THE POWER OF EMPLOYERS,
AND IT'S INCREASING IT
RIGHT ACROSS THE BOARD.
AND SOME OF THE THINGS
THAT THIS BILL
DOES ARE JUST
EXTRAORDINARY.
THE ELEMENTS OF
RETROACTIVITY IN IT,
I'VE NEVER SEEN IN ANY
OTHER PIECE OF LEGISLATION.
IT'S JUST - IT'S
UNBELIEVABLE.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE
WORKERS WHO SIGNED CARDS,
GOT ORGANIZED, WENT THROUGH
A PROCESS THAT WAS LEGAL
UNDER BILL 40, GOING
THROUGH A PROCESS
OF INTEREST
ARBITRATION.
IT CUTS IT OFF.
IT SAYS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE
A DECISION BY THE TIME
THIS VOTE TAKES PLACE, IT'S
AS IF IT NEVER HAPPENED.
POOF, IT'S GONE.
THE MOST VULNERABLE
PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY,
PEOPLE WHO CLEAN BUILDINGS,
WHO ARE SECURITY GUARDS,
THEIR RIGHTS TO BARGAIN
HAVE DISAPPEARED.
THOSE POOR PEOPLE, THE
ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE
IN ONTARIO WHO HAD THE
TEMERITY TO GET ORGANIZED
IN THE AGRICULTURAL
SECTOR, POOF, GONE.
NO MORE RIGHT
TO BARGAIN.
THIS IS ORWELLIAN.

[everyone talking at once]

Hugh continues THE CONSTANT REFERENCES
TO WORKPLACE
DEMOCRACY ARE
ORWELLIAN.
THE WORDS WORKPLACE
DEMOCRACY DO NOT APPEAR
IN THAT BILL.

Gord says JIM WILSON IS CLOSING
HOSPITALS IN TORONTO
TO IMPROVE YOUR
HEALTHCARE.
TSUBOUCHI TELLS YOU TO EAT
TUNA OUT OF DENTED TINS
SO THAT YOU CAN TEACH
YOUR KIDS SELF-RELIANCE.
AND WITH ONE LEFT HAND -
LEFT HAND? - BACK HAND,
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS REMOVED
RIGHTS THAT GOVERNMENTS,
INCLUDING CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENTS
THAT PUT IN PLACE IN -

Steve says VERY SADLY, ALWAYS ONE
IMPERATIVE TO THESE
DISCUSSIONS AND THAT
IS, THEY HAVE TO END.
THANK YOU.
HUGH MACKENZIE, JANE
PEPINO, PATRICK GOSSAGE,
GORD WILSON FROM THE OFL,
AND CATHERINE SWIFT
FROM THE CFIB.

Gord says A YEAR FROM
NOW WE'LL BE BACK HERE.

Catherine says ABSOLUTELY.

Patrick says MORE JOBS, DON'T
FORGET.

Catherine says
THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says OKAY, THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOU
THINK AND WRITE TO US AT:

The slate changes to "Fourth Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario, M4T 2T1."

Steve continues OR FOR THE COMPUTER
BUFFS WHO ARE WATCHING:

The slate changes to "Internet address studio2@tvo.org."

Steve concludes THAT'S OUR
INTERNET ADDRESS.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1995, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #38