Transcript: Throne Speech | Oct 01, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve Paikin says THIS WEEK...
IT WAS ALL STATELY
DECORUM INSIDE FOR
THE TORIES' FIRST THRONE
SPEECH AT QUEEN'S PARK.

A clip appears on screen of Queen’s Park.

Henry Jackman, in his fifties, has short, side-parted, white hair, wears glasses, sits at Queen’s Park and says THIS ADMINISTRATION IS
CHARTING A NEW COURSE AND
MAKING MAJOR CHANGE,
FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN THE
WAY GOVERNMENT WORKS.
[shouting]

Steve says BUT OUTSIDE, IT WAS
CLUBS AND PEPPER SPRAY AS
ANGER AT THE HARRIS
AGENDA BOILED OVER.

Clips of people protesting against the police outside of Queen’s Park appear on screen.

In the studio, Steve sits with his guests at a table in the shape of a 4. Steve is in his thirties, has short, dark, curly brown hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a gray blazer and a green Henley shirt.

Steve says THE MIKE HARRIS TORIES
REDEDICATED THEMSELVES TO
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
IN WEDNESDAY'S THRONE
SPEECH, BUT THEY NEARLY
SPARKED A REVOLUTION OF A
DIFFERENT SORT OUTSIDE
THE LEGISLATURE.
HI EVERYBODY, I'M STEVE
PAIKIN, AND WELCOME TO THIS
WEEK'S EDITION
OF
4th READING.
THE THRONE SPEECH WAS A
FURTHER REMINDER THAT THE
TORIES INTEND TO FULFILL MANY
OF THEIR ELECTION PROMISES.
TAX CUTS, WELFARE REFORM,
REPEALING THE NDP'S LABOUR
LEGISLATION, DOWNSIZING
THE PUBLIC SERVICE, AND
GENERALLY DECLARING
ONTARIO "OPEN FOR BUSINESS."
BUT A MASSIVE PROTEST
OUTSIDE TURNED VIOLENT, AND
THAT COUPLED WITH A BOMB
SCARE SIGNIFICANTLY
INTERFERED WITH THE
GOVERNMENT'S MESSAGE.
WE'LL TALK TO A FORMER TORY
LEADER ABOUT THE SPEECH AND
HOW IT'S BEING RECEIVED, BUT
FIRST HERE IS SOME OF THE
FLAVOUR OF THAT DAY.

The clip rolls.

A caption reads "Henry N.R. Jackman, Lieutenant Governor" and Henry says THIS ADMINISTRATION IS
CHARTING A NEW COURSE,
SETTING PRIORITIES
AND STICKING TO THEM.
RESTRUCTURING TO ENSURE WE
CAN LIVE WITHIN OUR MEANS,
AND MAKING MAJOR CHANGE
FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN THE
WAY GOVERNMENT WORKS.
THROUGH THESE ACTIONS,
SPELLED OUT IN THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION, THE NEW
GOVERNMENT WILL RESTORE
PROSPERITY, FREE THE
PRIVATE SECTOR TO CREATE
JOBS, AND MEET THE CHALLENGE
OF RENEWING ONTARIO.

Mike Harris appears on screen giving a speech. Mike is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, grayish blond hair.

Mike says IT'S NOT PLEASANT.
IT'S NOT EASY TO TAKE THINGS
AWAY, BUT THE FACT OF THE
MATTER IS THE DOLLARS THAT
ARE FUNDING THESE PROGRAMS
WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE,
THOSE DOLLARS AREN'T THERE.
THEY'RE IMAGINARY DOLLARS
THAT ARE BEING BORROWED,
AND I MIGHT ADD WITH MORE
AND MORE DIFFICULTY.

In an interview a caption reads "Lyn McLeod, Liberal Leader" and Lyn speaks into a microphone. Lyn is in her fifties, has short, feathery blond hair, and wears a blue suit and white scarf.

Lyn says THEY BELIEVED THAT THERE
WOULD BE 725,000 JOBS
CREATED IN THIS PROVINCE.
THE FACT THEY ARE RETREATING
FROM THAT KIND OF SPECIFIC
COMMITMENT ON JOBS, TO ME,
REFLECTS THE FACT THEY
CANNOT DELIVER ON JOBS, AND
THAT UNEMPLOYMENT IS GOING
TO BE A NUMBER ONE
CONCERN FOR PEOPLE STILL
IN THIS PROVINCE.

In an interview, a caption reads "Bob Rae, NDP Leader" and Bob Rae appears on screen. Bob is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, gray hair, has rounded glasses, and is clean-shaven.

Bob says YOU HURT PEOPLE AS QUICKLY
AND BLUNTLY AND SUDDENLY AS
THEY'RE PLANNING TO DO,
AND OBVIOUSLY TAKING
SOME PRIDE IN DOING IT.
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY
SHOULD BE SURPRISED THAT
THERE ARE DEMONSTRATORS.
THERE ARE BOUND TO
BE DEMONSTRATORS.
THERE ARE BOUND TO BE PEOPLE
WHO ARE ANGRY AND WHO ARE
GOING TO BE EXPRESSING
THEIR VIEWS.

In an interview, a caption reads "Gord Wilson, President, Ontario Federation of Labour" and Gord appears on screen. He is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, dark gray hair, and is clean-shaven.

Gord says WHAT'S GOING TO TAKE PLACE,
I THINK, IS A REACTION
THEY'RE NOT COUNTING ON.
THEY REALLY THINK WORKING
PEOPLE OUT THERE ARE JUST
GOING TO FOLD THEIR TENTS
AND GO MEEKLY AND MILDLY
ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS.
REALITY IS PEOPLE ARE
NOT GOING TO DO THAT.
[shouting]

Clips of people protesting, pushing against the fences and police trying to fight people off and detain them from getting to the building appear on screen.

Back in the studio, Steve says LET US LOOK INSIDE
OUR FACT FILE NOW FOR A
SUMMARY OF WHAT THE
GOVERNMENT DOES HAVE IN MIND.

A red and gold slide appears on screen with a title that reads "Fact File."

Steve reads aloud and says THE TORIES WILL
GO AHEAD WITH:
THEIR PROMISED
INCOME TAX CUTS.
THEY ALSO WILL CUT
WELFARE RATES.
THIS WEEK, IN FACT.
AND BRING IN MANDATORY
WORKFARE FOR ABLE-BODIED
WELFARE RECIPIENTS.
THE GOVERNMENT WILL
REPEAL THE NDP's
ANTI-STRIKEBREAKING LAW.
AND DELIVER ON ANOTHER
MAJOR ELECTION CAMPAIGN
PROMISE BY REPEALING THE
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY LAW.
IT WILL BRING IN A
VICTIMS' BILL OF RIGHTS.
AND WORK ON ELIMINATING
WASTE IN HEALTHCARE.
AS WELL AS REDUCING THE
NUMBER OF MPPs TO 99...
YOU'RE ALL LAUGHING
AROUND THE TABLE.
FROM 99 TO 130.

Larry says YOU'RE READING
WITH A STRAIGHT FACE.
I AM.

Back in the studio, Steve says THOSE PICTURES WE SAW
EARLIER WERE CERTAINLY ON
THE FRONT PAGES OF MOST OF
THE NEWSPAPERS ACROSS THIS
PROVINCE, BUT CAN THOSE
DEMONSTRATIONS HAVE AN
EFFECT ON THIS GOVERNMENT'S
THINKING OR MAYBE ANOTHER
QUESTION, SHOULD THE NEW PC
GOVERNMENT PAY HEED TO WHAT
HAPPENS ON THE FRONT
LAWN OF THE LEGISLATURE?
AND HERE TO TALK TO US ABOUT
THAT AND OTHER ISSUES IS
LARRY GROSSMAN, FORMER
LEADER, FORMER CABINET
MINISTER FOR THE
ONTARIO TORIES.

Larry Grossman appears on screen. Larry is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, dark gray hair, has rounded glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and blue patterned tie.

Steve continues WE WELCOME YOU HERE TODAY,
LARRY, ALONG WITH OUR
REGULAR GANG, HUGH
MCKENZIE, PATRICK GOSSAGE,
JANE PEPINO,

From right to left, Hugh is in his fifties, has short, side-parted gray hair, wears big thin-rimmed glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and patterned black tie. Patrick is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, light gray hair, wears large glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a gray suit, a white shirt, and a patterned gold tie. Jane is in her forties, has short, straight gray hair cut in the shape of a bob, and wears a gray blazer and a white shirt.

Steve says WELCOME ONE AND ALL.
LET ME TRY THIS.
YOUR FATHER, ALAN GROSSMAN,
FORMER TORY CABINET
MINISTER, ONCE TOLD ME
THAT IF WE DON'T GIVE POOR
PEOPLE THEIR DUE AND THEIR
DIGNITY, THEY WILL TAKE IT
FROM US BY FORCE, AND
THEREFORE WE MUST.
IS THAT SOME OF WHAT WE SAW
AT QUEEN'S PARK THE OTHER
DAY WITH ALL OF THAT
DEMONSTRATING AND WHAT
IT TURNED INTO?

A caption reads "Larry Grossman, Former Ontario Treasurer" and Larry says I WOULDN'T CALL IT -- THESE
THINGS ARE NOT SPONTANEOUS.
THIS IS NOT THE STORMING OF
BASTILLE, THIS IS ORGANIZED
BY THE LABOUR MOVEMENT
FOR ALL THE "RIGHT REASONS."
THEY'RE FIGHTING
THEIR CAUSE.
BUT I THINK 5,000 MORE OR
LESS ORGANIZED PEOPLE AT A
PREPLANNED RALLY IS NOT
QUITE WHAT MY FATHER WAS
DESCRIBING COULD HAPPEN IF
GOVERNMENT WERE INSENSITIVE
TO THE NEED TO PROVIDE DIGNITY
TO DISADVANTAGED PEOPLE.
WE'RE A LONG
WAY FROM THAT.
AND TO BE FAIR TO THE
GOVERNMENT, THEY BELIEVE
WE'RE A LONG WAY FROM THAT.
AND I'M CONFIDENT THEY WILL
MONITOR WHAT HAPPENS GIVEN
THE CUTS THAT ARE
BEING PUT IN PLACE.
AND IF THEY SENSE WE'RE EVEN
BEGINNING TO EDGE TOWARDS
THAT KIND OF SITUATION,
THEY WILL MAKE THE
APPROPRIATE ADJUSTMENTS.
THIS IS NOT A CAMPAIGN
TO PUNISH POOR PEOPLE.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE
HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND IS THIS.
EVERYONE -- ALMOST EVERYONE
SEEMS TO ACCEPT THE
PROPOSITION THAT GOVERNMENTS
NEED TO REDUCE SPENDING,
REDUCE TAXES, AND
REDUCE DEFICITS.
ACTUALLY, BOB RAE SAID THAT
IN THE FIRST QUESTION PERIOD.
HE SAID EVERYBODY IN THIS
HOUSE AGREES WITH THAT NOW.
OKAY, SO NOW LET'S GO
TO THE SECOND PREMISE.
DOES ONE BELIEVE THAT BOB
RAE IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS,
AND HIS PREDECESSORS
STRUCTURED GOVERNMENT SO
AS TO SERVE PEOPLE OTHER
THAN THE DISADVANTAGED?
I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT
IS BOB RAE WOULD BE THE
FIRST TO SAY NO, I RAN A
GOVERNMENT THAT HAD ITS
PROGRAMS DEDICATED
TO THE DISADVANTAGED.
WELL, IT FOLLOWS IF YOU'RE
GOING TO CUT SPENDING, THEN
THE DISADVANTAGED ARE GOING
TO BE THE ONES THAT ARE
AFFECTED BECAUSE THAT'S
WHAT THE MONEY WAS BEING
SPENT ON PREVIOUSLY.
NO ONE'S HAPPY ABOUT THIS.
MY LATE FATHER, MAY HE
REST IN PEACE, WOULD BE
EXTREMELY UNHAPPY ABOUT IT.
BUT THAT ISN'T TO
SAY IT'S AVOIDABLE.

Steve says YOUR FATHER WAS ALSO
A PARLIAMENTARIAN AND
RESPECTED THE TRADITIONS
AROUND THE LEGISLATURE, AND
THE NOTION IT'S A PUBLIC
BUILDING, AND THAT THE
PUBLIC SHOULD HAVE
ACCESS TO ITS BUILDING.
NOW I'M NOT SAYING THE
PUBLIC OUGHT TO BE ALLOWED
TO GO IN THERE AND TRASH
THE JOINT, BUT I AM SAYING
THERE'S A LEVEL OF SECURITY
AND A LEVEL OF FEAR AROUND
THAT BUILDING AS A RESULT
OF THE DEMONSTRATION THAT
EVERYBODY SEEMED PRETTY
UNCOMFORTABLE WITH ON DAY ONE.
WHAT IS TO BE
DONE ABOUT THAT?
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT
CAN BE DONE ABOUT THAT?

Larry says I DO THINK IT'S INCUMBENT
UPON THE GOVERNMENT WHEN IT'S
UNDERTAKING NECESSARY BUT
UNPLEASANT TASKS LIKE THIS
THAT ARE QUITE SUSCEPTIBLE
TO BEING MISINTERPRETED AS
MAY I SAY SOME OF THE
OPPOSITION SPOKESPERSONS
DID YESTERDAY, TO MAKE SURE
THEY CONVEY THE MESSAGE
THAT THEY'RE NOT MEAN
SPIRITED, THAT THEY ARE
DOING THIS BECAUSE THEY
SINCERELY BELIEVE IN THE
LONG TERM IT'S BEST FOR
EVERYONE INCLUDING THE
PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY
AFFECTED.
BILL DAVIS, IN MY VIEW,
HAD A WIDE AREA OF
MANEUVERABILITY ON BOTH SIDES
OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
AND THE REASON BEING THAT
WHILE PEOPLE DISAGREED WITH
WHAT HE WAS DOING, THOUGHT
HE OUGHT TO GO FASTER ON
SOME ISSUES, OR WENT TOO
FAST ON OTHERS, NO ONE,
HARDLY ANYONE OUT THERE
IN ONTARIO THOUGHT HE WAS
OPPOSED TO THEM.
THEY FELT HE CARED ABOUT
THEM, AND THAT THEY JUST
DISAGREED WITH HOW HE
WAS GOING ABOUT IT.
AND I THINK THAT'S A NICHE
THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT
HAS GOT TO WORRY ABOUT.
AND I THINK THEY
ARE ADDRESSING IT.
BUT IT'S GOING TO BE
DIFFICULT WITH THE
DEMONSTRATIONS ON THE ONE
SIDE, AND THE OPPOSITION
IN THE HOUSE.

A caption reads "Hugh Mackenzie, Former Aide to Bob Rae" and Hugh says I AGREE WITH
EVERYTHING YOU SAID UP
UNTIL THE LAST TEN SECONDS.
I THINK IT'S HARD TO SQUARE...
I THINK THAT'S AN
INTERESTING ANALYSIS.
IT'S ACTUALLY AN ANALYSIS
I WOULD SHARE, I THINK,
LARGELY ABOUT THE
DAVIS GOVERNMENT.
I THINK THIS GOVERNMENT IS
A LONG WAY FROM THAT MOULD,
AND STATEMENTS LIKE THE
STATEMENT SUGGESTING
WELFARE WASN'T FOR FEEDING
CHILDREN IS A CLASSIC
EXAMPLE OF HOW FAR THIS
GOVERNMENT'S GOT TO GO IN
CONVINCING PEOPLE THAT
IT'S ON THEIR SIDE.
AND I WOULD AGREE WITH THE
SUGGESTION IMPLICIT IN WHAT
LARRY SAID THAT THE WORLD
DOESN'T TURN ONE WAY OR THE
OTHER ON THE DEMONSTRATION,
AND ITS IMPACT.
BUT I THINK IT'S ALMOST A
GIVEN ABOUT ONTARIO POLITICS
RIGHT NOW THAT NOBODY'S
CORE CONSTITUENCY IS LARGE
ENOUGH TO ENABLE THEM
TO GET AWAY WITH DOING
WHATEVER THAT CORE
CONSTITUENCY WANTS.
RIGHT NOW, MIKE HARRIS
IS PLAYING TO THE CORE
CONSTITUENCY OF THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY.

Steve says WHICH IS WHAT?
WHAT PERCENTAGE
OF THE ELECTORATE?

Hugh says MY GUESS IS PROBABLY
IN THE RANGE OF 20-25 PERCENT.
AND THE REST OF WHAT HE
GOT WAS PEOPLE WHO WERE
ATTRACTED BY THE RHETORIC,
WHO BOUGHT THE IDEA THAT
WE OUGHT TO TRADE
WELFARE FOR JOBS.

Steve says SO IS IT
FAIR TO SAY...

Hugh says WHO WERE WRITING CHEQUES
OFF THEIR TAX REDUCTIONS.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
REASONS WHY PEOPLE CAME TO
MIKE HARRIS IN THAT
ELECTION CAMPAIGN THAT
DON'T PUT THEM IN THE
CATEGORY OF THE CORE
CONSTITUENCY OF THE
MICHAEL HARRIS REVOLUTION.
AND THE TEST, THE ISSUE
THAT'S GOING TO DEVELOP
OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS IS
THE EXTENT TO WHICH THEY
ARE ABLE TO BROADEN THAT.
AND AS I SAID, THE SORT OF
THREE SIGNAL DOCUMENTS OR
PIECES OF INFORMATION
THAT HAVE COME FROM THIS
GOVERNMENT, THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION, THEN MIKE
HARRIS' STATEMENT ON
ELECTION NIGHT, AND NOW THE
THRONE SPEECH, THEY'RE
ALL PRETTY MUCH THE SAME.
AND WE REALLY HAVEN'T GOTTEN
VERY FAR FROM THE RHETORIC
OF THE CAMPAIGN.
AND THAT'S APPEALING DIRECTLY
TO THAT CORE CONSTITUENCY.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS.
IN THE OLD DAYS IT WAS
SAID, IN THE OLD DAYS,
WHEN YOU WERE IN
GOVERNMENT...

Larry says THAT FAR BACK.

Steve says IT WAS SAID YOU WOULD
SORT OF SIT THERE IN THE
MIDDLE AND AS A GOVERNMENT
JUDGE THE VALUE OF THE
COMPETING INTERESTS IN
SOCIETY YOU WERE DEALING
WITH, AND TRY AND FORGE
CONSENSUS, BALANCE
INTERESTS, DO WHAT YOU HAD
TO DO TO FIND A SOLUTION THAT
SORT OF MADE THE GREATEST
NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAPPY.
THE THING I'M HEARING
THAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS
GOVERNMENT IS THEY ARE NOT
INTERESTED IN DOING THAT.
THAT RATHER THEY HAVE SET
THEIR SIGHTS ON THEIR CORE
SUPPORTERS, AND THEY'RE GOING
TO DO, AS HUGH SUGGESTED.
THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING.
YOU TELL ME WHY
THAT'S WRONG?

Larry says I DISAGREE.
I THINK, FIRSTLY, THE CORE
SUPPORTERS FOR EACH PARTY
ARE WELL UNDER 10
PERCENT THESE DAYS.
I THINK THIS WAS A UNIQUE
ELECTION IN THE SENSE THERE
WAS NOT THE SLIGHTEST
VAGUENESS ABOUT WHAT
MIKE HARRIS STOOD FOR OR
WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO.
I THINK THERE IS NO DOUBT
THAT 45 PERCENT, AND MORE
IF THERE WERE ONLY TWO
PARTIES TO GET RID OF THE
STUFF THAT THE MAJORITY
DIDN'T SUPPORT, WANTED WHAT
HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO,
AND OUR POLLING ANALYSIS
INDICATED MOST PEOPLE
THOUGHT HE WOULD DO WHAT
HE SAID HE WAS
GOING TO DO.
SO I THINK HE IS GOVERNING
PURSUANT TO THE CLEAR
MANDATE HE GOT.
IN FACT, HE'D BE TAKING ALL
SORTS OF CRITICISM NOW
IF HE HADN'T.

Steve says PATRICK, IF YOU WERE
ADVISING THIS GOVERNMENT,
AND YOU HAVE ADVISED
PREMIERS AND GOVERNMENTS
IN THE PAST...

Hugh says I HOPE NOT.

Patrick says NOT
THIS
ONE.

Steve says WITH REGARD TO
DEMONSTRATIONS...
[laughing]
THE LIKES OF WHICH WE
SAW THE OTHER DAY,
WHAT WOULD YOU TELL THEM?
SHOULD THEY BE
INFLUENCED BY THAT?
SHOULD THEY DISREGARD THAT?
WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST?

A caption reads "Patrick Gossage, President, ‘Media Profile" and Patrick says I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T
OVERREACT TO IT, THAT'S FOR
SURE BECAUSE I AGREE WITH
LARRY, THIS IS A PRETTY
WELL-ORGANIZED BUNCH.
I MEAN, HOWEVER, BY
GOD, THEY SUCCEEDED.
I MEAN A BLOODY FACE ON
THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY
NEWSPAPER IN THIS PROVINCE,
YOU KNOW, DOES NOT CREATE A
FAVOURABLE IMPRESSION
IN THE EARLY DAYS OF
A GOVERNMENT.
AND IT'S A BIT
UNPRECEDENTED, TO BE HONEST
WITH YOU, LARRY, AND
WHOEVER LET IT GET OUT OF
HAND, OR HOWEVER IT
HAPPENED, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT TO COME BACK TO YOUR
FIRST QUESTION BECAUSE I
THINK THAT'S HOW I'D ADVISE
THEM, I THINK WHAT THEY'RE
MISSING IN THEIR ANALYSIS
AND IN THEIR RHETORIC WHICH
I AGREE WITH HUGH IS, YOU
KNOW, VERGES ON THE GLEEFUL
SOMETIMES, IS THE
ELEMENT OF HOPE.
THE LUMP AND PROLETARIAT IS
CREATED OUT OF HOPELESSNESS.
AND GOD HELP US IF WE CREATE
HOPELESSNESS IN THE NEXT
EIGHT TO TEN MONTHS.

Steve says YOU THINK THEY'RE
NOT OFFERING ANY HOPE?

Patrick says HANG ON,
HOPELESSNESS IN FACT BY NOT
COMING FORWARD IF THE
ECONOMY DOESN'T TURN
AROUND, IF JOBS
AREN'T CREATED.
I MEAN I AGREE WITH LYN.
IF THIS PROVINCE DOESN'T
START TO PROVIDE EMPLOYMENT
FOR PEOPLE, SOME OF WHOM
HAVE BEEN OUT OF WORK FOR
TWO OR THREE YEARS.
I MEAN, WELFARE
DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN.
THESE ARE PEOPLE
THAT CAN'T GET WORK.
YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO
MAKE THE BASIC ANALYSIS.
AND IF THEY
DON'T OFFER HOPE.
THAT ASSUMPTION IS
BEING CHALLENGED.

Steve says THAT ASSUMPTION IS
BEING CHALLENGED.

Patrick says THERE ARE
JOBS FOR THEM, STEVE?
ARE YOU TELLING ME -- IS
LARRY GOING TO TELL ME
THERE ARE JOBS FOR
THOSE WELFARE PEOPLE?

Steve says I'M REPORTING TO YOU
WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM TORY
CABINET MINISTERS WHICH IS,
AND I HEARD THIS FROM ERNIE
EVES THE OTHER DAY, WHICH IS
WHEN PEOPLE ARE FACED WITH
THE NOTION OF HAVING
THEIR WELFARE BENEFITS
DRAMATICALLY REDUCED OR
GETTING OUT AND LOOKING
FOR WORK, THEY WILL
DO THE LATTER.

Patrick says I TELL YOU, THERE
ARE NOT JOBS.

Steve says THAT IS WHAT
I'M HEARING FROM TORY
CABINET MINISTERS.

Larry says WE CAN'T GENERALIZE.
ALL THE PEOPLE ON WELFARE
ARE NOT THE SAME.

Patrick says THERE AIN'T A
MILLION JOBS, LARRY.
I'M SORRY, BABY.

Larry says BY THE WAY, NOT ONLY DO I
AGREE WITH THAT, BUT THE
GOVERNMENT AGREES WITH THAT.
NO ONE IN THE GOVERNMENT HAS
SAID THERE'S JOBS FOR THE
MILLION PEOPLE
ON WELFARE.

Patrick says LET ME FINISH MY POINT
BECAUSE I THINK, AND YOU'D
HAVE TO AGREE THAT IF A
YEAR GOES BY AND THERE IS
NO MESSAGE OF HOPE, AND
THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE
MISSING, THEY'RE NOT
CONTAINING -- THE TORIES ARE
NOT CONTAINING THEIR MESSAGE
THAT IN SOME WAY THAT
PROVIDES SOME
HOPE FOR PEOPLE.
AND HOPELESSNESS IS WHAT'S
GOING TO BREED A MORE REAL...

Steve says MISS PEPINO,
YOUR TURN.

A caption reads "Jane Pepino, Ontario Tory Activist" and Jane says Mr. PAIKIN.
WELL, I THINK THERE IS NO
MESSAGE OF HOPELESSNESS
OTHER THAN MAYBE WHAT
PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PUT
A SPIN ON.

Patrick says THERE'S NO
MESSAGE OF HOPE, I SAID.

Jane says I BELIEVE THERE IS A
MESSAGE OF HOPE, BUT MORE
IMPORTANTLY OF PRIDE.
WHEN YOU START TO READ AND
LISTEN TO WHAT'S BEING SAID,
IT'S GOING BACK TO PUTTING
ONTARIO BACK ON TOP, LET'S
GET ONTARIO BACK TO WORK.
IF WE WORK HARD, IF WE HAVE
SOME SELF-RELIANCE IT'S THERE.
AND I DON'T THINK,
NOTWITHSTANDING HOW PEOPLE
MAY TRY TO POSITION IT,
MISREPRESENT IT, TO PUT A
VALUE TO IT, THAT IT IS
PACKAGED IN ANY SORT OF
A MEAN-SPIRITED WAY.
YOU SAW THE PREMIER...

Hugh says HOW DID HE...

Jane says I DID NOT
INTERRUPT YOU.
IF I MAY BE ALLOWED
THE COURTESY.

Steve says GO AHEAD, JANE.

Jane says THANK YOU.
HE TALKED ABOUT THE
FACT IT WASN'T EASY.
HE TOOK NO PLEASURE IN IT.
AND IN FACT, WHEN YOU THINK
ABOUT IT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT
SOME OF THE WORDS THAT ARE
THERE ABOUT LET'S WORK
TOGETHER, PULL TOGETHER,
LET'S TALK ABOUT COMMUNITY
VALUES AGAIN, ABOUT
HELPING ONE ANOTHER, ABOUT
SELF-RELIANCE AND BEING
ABLE TO RELY ON OTHERS,
THE SIMPLE FACT SOMEONE
DIRECTLY FROM HIS OFFICE IS
GOING TO BE OUT TRYING
TO DEAL WITH INCREASING
VOLUNTEERISM, GETTING PEOPLE
TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY
FOR THEIR NEIGHBOURS.
I THINK THAT'S
VERY IMPORTANT.
I THINK THAT IS A
MESSAGE OF HOPE.

Steve says ANYTHING
WRONG WITH THAT?

Patrick says I DO.
AND LISTEN, JANE,
UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S NOT
IN THE SPEECH
FROM THE THRONE.

Jane says IT IS.
EXCUSE ME.
TODAY, THOUSANDS OF
VOLUNTEERS WORK TO MAKE
THE COMMUNITY BETTER
PLACES TO LIVE.
THE PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANT
TO THE PREMIER WILL LEAD A
GOVERNMENT INITIATIVE.

Patrick says THAT'S ONE PARAGRAPH.

Larry says IF I MIGHT SAY WE'RE
ALL IN FAVOUR...

Patrick says I JUST WANT TO HEAR
IT SAID WITH MORE CONVICTION.
Steve says GO AHEAD, LARRY.
WE'RE GETTING DRAWN INTO THE
TRAP OF THE TRADITIONAL WAY
OF LOOKING AT THE ROLE OF
GOVERNMENT DEVELOPED OVER
THE PAST 30 YEARS.
AND THAT IS THAT SOMEHOW, A, THE
EFFECTIVENESS OF GOVERNMENT
SHALL BE MEASURED ON THE
DEGREE TO WHICH IT FINDS
MONEY AND RECIRCULATES THE
MONEY WITHOUT ECONOMIC
STIMULATION, TO PEOPLE
WHO DON'T HAVE JOBS.
THIS GOVERNMENT IS SAYING
THE ONE THING THAT HASN'T
BEEN TRIED, REALLY, IS TO
GET MONEY CIRCULATING BACK
IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR,
WHICH WILL CREATE THOSE JOBS.

Patrick says IT WAS TRIED WITH
RONALD REAGAN, I'M AFRAID.
IT'S CALLED TRICKLE
DOWN ECONOMICS.

Steve says REAGAN DIDN'T
CUT SPENDING.
EXACTLY MY POINT.

Larry says I WAS GOING TO SAY, IF
YOU LOOK AT HIS BUDGETS,
HE DIDN'T DO THAT.

Patrick says THAT WAS HIS
THEORY THOUGH, LARRY.

Larry says WE DON'T
KNOW IF IT WORKED.
AND BY THE WAY, I'M
NOT SUGGESTING THIS IS
REAGANISM, ALL I'M
SUGGESTING IS 80 MILLION
DOLLARS SPENT ON THE INTERIM WASTE
AUTHORITY CREATED JOBS
FOR CONSULTANTS.
WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU GET THAT
80 MILLION DOLLARS BACK IN TAX CUTS?
I SUGGEST TO YOU SOME OF
THOSE PEOPLE ON WELFARE ARE
GOING TO BE A HECK
OF A LOT BETTER OFF?

Patrick says I BUY THAT.

Larry says ARE THERE RISKS IN THIS?
YOU BETTER BELIEVE THAT.

Patrick says BUT THE BIG SAVINGS
ARE ON THE BACK OF WELFARE
PEOPLE, LARRY.
IT'S NOT THE INTERIM
WASTE AUTHORITY.
COME ON.
IT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE.

Larry says MY POINT IS THE WAY TO
MEASURE THIS GOVERNMENT
ISN'T THAT THEY DON'T
CARE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE
UNEMPLOYED, PEOPLE WHO ARE
ON WELFARE, IT'S THAT THEY ARE
TRYING SOMETHING THAT HASN'T
BEEN TRIED HERE BEFORE.
BY THE WAY, I'M NOT HERE
TO SAY IT'S FOR SURE
GOING TO WORK.
I AM HERE TO SAY WE KNOW
FROM THE UNEMPLOYMENT
FIGURES THAT ARE IN PLACE
NOW THAT EVERYTHING ELSE
THAT'S BEEN TRIED BY
GOVERNMENTS OVER THE LAST
COUPLE OF DECADES
HAS NOT WORKED.

Steve says CAN I ASK YOU WHAT SOUNDS
LIKE A REAL PLANE DUMB
QUESTION, BUT I'M NOT
SURE I KNOW THE ANSWER.

Larry says IF YOU ACCEPT
A PLAIN DUMB ANSWER.
I WON'T.

Steve says DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTIONARY?

Larry says DO I CONSIDER MYSELF A
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTIONARY?
I'M NOT SURE WHAT
YOU MEAN BY THAT...

Steve says DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION?
ARE YOU ON THE TEAM?
ARE YOU ONBOARD 100 PERCENT
WITH THAT DOCUMENT?

Larry says I GUESS I WOULD SAY THAT
THERE ARE THINGS IN THE
DOCUMENT, THINGS IN THE
POLICY THAT CONCERN ME.
BUT TO PUT THAT IN SOME
PERSPECTIVE, I COULD SAY
EXACTLY THAT ABOUT THE
GOVERNMENT ABOUT WHICH
I WAS A PART.
THE CABINET SITS AROUND, AND
I SAT AT THE CABINET TABLE
EVEN AS TREASURER MANY
DAYS, AND SAID TO MYSELF,
BOY, I HAVE A LOT OF
TROUBLE WITH THAT.
DID I RESPECT THE
OVERALL PHILOSOPHY?
DID I HELP DRIVE IT IN
THE DAVIS GOVERNMENT?
SURE I DID.

Steve says SO WHAT CONCERNS YOU ABOUT
WHAT'S IN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION THAT WE ARE NOW
SEEING -- THAT'S BEEN OUT
THERE FOR A YEAR AND A HALF,
AND WE'RE NOW SEEING COME
TO LIFE?

Larry says IT'S THE KIND OF STUFF
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
UNCHARTERED WATERS HERE.
NO ONE, INCLUDING BOB RAE,
DENIES THE NEED TO CUT SPENDING.
HOW DO YOU DO IT?
AS I SAID EARLIER, SINCE
MOST OF THE GOVERNMENT
PROGRAMS ARE STRUCTURED TO
BENEFIT THE DISADVANTAGED,
WHEN YOU CUT, THE DISADVANTAGED
ARE GOING TO BE HURT.
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN
WHEN THAT OCCURS?
SO THE DEGREE TO WHICH I
HAVE RESERVATIONS DEPENDS
UPON THE GOVERNMENT'S
ABILITY TO MONITOR THAT AND
BE THERE AND UNDERSTAND IT
SO AS TO SAY, YEAH, WE DID
THAT, HAD TO BE DONE,
BUT OH, THAT'S TOO MUCH.

Steve says HOW DO THEY MONITOR THAT?
I ASK THE QUESTION BECAUSE
I THINK I KNOW IF YOU WERE
STILL LEADING THIS PARTY,
INSTEAD OF Mr. HARRIS,
THIS WOULD NOT BE
THE CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT'S PLATFORM.
I FEEL PRETTY
CONFIDENT SAYING THAT.
FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE.
I'M NOT MAKING A JUDGMENT.

Larry says BUT, STEVE, I ALSO
PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE
BEEN ELECTED.
[laughing]

Steve says MEANING PREMIER
HARRIS IS MORE IN TOUCH
WITH WHAT ONTARIANS WANT
TODAY THAN YOU ARE?

Larry says OH, YES,
I THINK SO.
I THINK THAT'S
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

Steve says THAT'S A HELL OF A
THING FOR YOU TO ADMIT.

Hugh says HE'S A
FORMER POLITICIAN.
HE CAN ADMIT THAT.
HE ALSO KNOWS HOW
POLITICS WORKS.

Steve says YOU DON'T HAVE A
PROBLEM ADMITTING THAT?
I HAD TEN OR 12 TERRIFIC
YEARS IN CABINET BECAUSE, I
THINK IN PART, IF YOU DON'T
MIND ME SAYING, I WAS
PRETTY MUCH IN TUNE WITH
WHERE THE PUBLIC WAS IN A
LOT -- BY THE WAY, I WALKED
ACROSS THE FRONT LAWN
YESTERDAY, AND A LOT OF
THOSE PEOPLE CAME UP TO
CHAT WITH ME.
NOT AS AN ADVERSARY.
SO I THINK THEY FEEL I
WELL-REPRESENTED THOSE VIEWS
AT THAT TIME, AND SO
DID A LOT OF PEOPLE
IN THE BROAD PUBLIC.
BUT THIS IS A
DIFFERENT TIME.
AND MIKE HARRIS IS AS RIGHT
FOR THIS TIME, I BELIEVE,
AS BILL DAVIS AND SOME OF US
WERE TEN OR 12 YEARS AGO.
I'M NOT EMBARRASSED
TO SAY THAT AT ALL.
IT'S BETTER FOR THE PUBLIC
THAT THIS GROUP IS THERE
NOW, RATHER THAN A GROUP
THAT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO
EXECUTE WHAT THEY...

Steve says SO IF WHEN HE WAS
TREASURER, LET ME MAKE
ONE POINT HERE, IF WHEN
YOU WERE TREASURER
YOU HAD NOT SADDLED US WITH
THAT 23 BILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT,
WE WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION?

Larry says WELL, HERE WE'RE GOING TO
GET INTO IT IN THE LAST FEW
MINUTES HERE, BUT I HAVE TO
TELL YOU, I BROUGHT IN THE
LAST CONSERVATIVE BUDGET IN
1984, AND WE WOULDN'T HAVE
TO GO THROUGH THIS, I MIGHT
SAY, AND STATISTICALLY YOU
CAN CHECK IT, IF IT WEREN'T
FOR THE GROSS LIBERAL
SPENDING BETWEEN '85 AND
'90 WHICH RAN WAY AHEAD THE
REST OF THE COUNTRY, AND
THE FIRST BOB RAE BUDGET.
BY THE WAY, I DON'T BLAME
BOB RAE FOR HIS LAST FOUR
BUDGETS, I BLAME HIM
FOR HIS FIRST ONE.
AND MOST OF ALL, I BLAME THE
LIBERALS BETWEEN '85 AND '90.
HUGH YOU WANT
TO GET IN HERE.

Hugh says I THINK THE CRITICAL
TEST, MAYBE I'M SAYING THE
SAME THING AS LARRY, BUT
PUTTING IT IN A DIFFERENT
WAY IS I THINK THE CRITICAL
QUESTION IS TO WHAT EXTENT IS
THE SUPPORT FOR THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION A VENEER
OVER A BASIC SENSIBILITY
THAT ONTARIANS HAVE?
AND TO WHAT EXTENT HAS THAT
VIEW OF SOCIETY SORT OF
PENETRATED VERY DEEPLY
INTO THE SOCIAL CONSCIENCE
OF THIS PROVINCE.
IF IT'S PENETRATED VERY DEEPLY
THEN I THINK ONTARIO WILL
BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE
DESPERATION THAT'S GOING TO
BE CREATED BY THIS 22
PERCENT CUT IN WELFARE
AND VARIOUS OTHER THINGS.
BUT IF IT'S A VENEER, I
THINK THEY'RE GOING TO FIND
THEMSELVES ON TOP OF
A REAL POWDER KEG.
AND I HAVE A BELIEF, I DON'T
KNOW WHETHER THIS IS TRUE OR
NOT, I'M JUST EXPRESSING A
BELIEF, I HAVE A BELIEF IT
REALLY IS A VENEER, AND
UNDERNEATH THAT VENEER THERE
IS AN ONTARIO THAT'S STILL
A LOT LIKE THE ONTARIO THAT
YOU AND BILL DAVIS
HELPED TO GOVERN.
AND THAT THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION MACHINE IS GOING
TO RUN OUT OF GAS BECAUSE
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START
TO CONFRONT THE
CONSEQUENCES OF THE
RHETORIC IN VERY REAL TERMS,
AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
FEEL VERY COMFORTABLE.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO FEEL
VERY COMFORTABLE LOOKING AT
THAT IN A MIRROR.

Steve says JANE.

Jane says I THINK WHEN HUGH USES THE
EXAMPLE OF THE VENEER,
I TAKE WHAT HE SAYS THAT
UNDERNEATH THE VENEER
YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE WHO ARE
PREPARED TO GO ON WITH THE
STATUS QUO, OR IF IT'S NOT
A VENEER, AND IT ACTUALLY
GOES THROUGH AS A CORE
VALUE, YOU DESCRIBE THAT
HAS MEAN SPIRITED.
I DON'T THINK THAT.
I THINK EVEN IF IT, AS YOU
CALLED IT A VENEER, YOU'D
FIND UNDERNEATH THAT PEOPLE
ARE CARING, THAT THEY ARE
PREPARED TO BE
SELF-RELIANT, THEY'RE
PREPARED TO WORK HARD, THAT
THEY REALLY HAVE SOME CORE
VALUES THAT HAVE ALWAYS
DISTINGUISHED US.
CIVILITY.
WHAT WE SAW YESTERDAY
WAS NOT CIVILITY.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO GET
BACK IN TOUCH WITH THAT.

Hugh says 22 PERCENT CUT IN
WELFARE IS NOT CIVILITY EITHER.

Jane says EXCUSE ME, I BELIEVE IT
IS IF AT THE SAME TIME AS
CUTTING WE RECOGNIZE THAT
WE CAN'T KEEP ON DOING IT
THAT WAY, BUT THAT WE HAVE
TO ADDRESS THOUGH NEEDS
IN SOME DIFFERENT WAY.
NOW, YOU OBVIOUSLY
DON'T AGREE.
YOU BELIEVE THOSE NEEDS
MUST BE ADDRESSED BY WAY
OF GOVERNMENT HANDOUT.
THERE IS, HOWEVER,
A DIFFERENT VISION.
AND I DON'T THINK THE
MESSAGE OF THE 22 PERCENT
CUT IS THAT OH, WELL, FIE
ON YOU, AND YOU CAN THEN GO
AND JUST LIVE ON THE
STREETS, THAT'S NOT IT AT ALL.
IF THERE'S SOME CONCERN
I HAVE, LIKE LARRY, IT'S
WHETHER WE CAN GET THE
STRUCTURES BEYOND THOSE OF
THE GOVERNMENT ALWAYS DOING
AND ALWAYS PROVIDING AND
ALWAYS SPENDING, IF WE
CAN GET THOSE UP TO SPEED
QUICKLY ENOUGH TO
SOFTEN THAT TRANSITION.
IT IS GOING TO BE A
FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURAL CHANGE.

Patrick says ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT,
AND MAYBE IT'LL THROW LIGHT
ON THE SITUATION IS WHO ARE
SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS AND
WHEN DO AN AGGLOMERATION OF
SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS,
IN FACT, BECOME
THE MAJORITY?
ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO
BE FIGHTING FOR INDIVIDUAL
HOSPITALS THAT ARE ABOUT
TO BE CLOSED SPECIAL
INTEREST GROUPS?
ARE WELFARE PEOPLE
SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS?
ARE -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
THIS EARLIER, IS THE
CULTURAL COMMUNITY A
SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP
THAT'S BEEN VERY WELL
TREATED IN THIS PROVINCE
UP TO NOW?
AT WHAT POINT DOES THIS
BECOME A REAL NUISANCE
FOR THIS GOVERNMENT?
IT'S AN INTERESTING THING
TO THINK OF BECAUSE
TOGETHER THEY CAN BE VERY,
VERY, VERY, VERY DIFFICULT
FOR A GOVERNMENT.

Steve says WITH JUST A
COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT,
LET ME PUT THIS TO YOU.
FRANK MILLER WAS
HERE THE OTHER DAY.
YOU REMEMBER
FRANK, DON'T YOU?

Larry says CERTAINLY DO.

Steve says I'M SO MISCHIEVOUS
SOMETIMES, AREN'T I?
MOST OF THE TIME.
HE SAID HE EXPECTED THE
GOVERNMENT TO BACK OFF A BIT
FROM ITS PROGRAM WHEN, FOR
EXAMPLE, HOSPITALS WOULD TRY
TO BE CLOSED AND PEOPLE
WOULD COME FORWARD AND SAY,
FORGET IT, YOU CAN'T
CLOSE MY HOSPITAL.
DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT...

Patrick says SOME SPECIAL
INTEREST GROUPS ARE MORE
IMPORTANT THAN OTHERS.
[all talking at once]

Steve says IF THE GOVERNMENT
WANTED TO CLOSE DOCTOR'S
HOSPITAL -- DO YOU EXPECT
THIS GOVERNMENT TO BACK OFF
OR MODERATE IN ITS POSITION
THE MORE THAT OPPOSING
FORCES COME FORWARD
AND CHALLENGE IT?

Larry says NO, I DON'T.
I THINK THE MORE WE HAVE
DEMONSTRATIONS LIKE
YESTERDAY, THE MORE THE
PUBLIC SAYS, AHA, THAT'S
HOW WE GOT INTO THIS
MESS, AND I ELECTED YOU
Mr. MILLER -- Mr. HARRIS,
TO CLEAN THIS UP.
AND BY THE WAY,
CLEAN IT UP QUICK.
AND Mr. HARRIS UNDERSTANDS
THAT PERFECTLY.
AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE
GOING TO GET ALL THE HARD
DECISIONS, ALL THE CUTS
DONE RIGHT AWAY, FIRST YEAR.
THEN THEY CAN GET ON TO
ADDRESSING THESE BROADER ISSUES.
THERE'S DEMONSTRATIONS AND

Patrick says THERE ARE VERY POWERFUL
LOBBYING GROUPS.
HE HASN'T EVEN
BEGUN TO MEET.
WE TALKED ABOUT
THIS EARLIER.
WHOA, GOOD LUCK.

Jane says HE SAID LAST NIGHT BY
THE TIME WE'VE IMPLEMENTED
OUR PLAN, THERE WON'T BE A
BLADE OF GRASS LEFT UNTRAMPLED
ON QUEEN'S PARK LAWN.
IT'S TRUE.
AND HE'S
PREPARED FOR IT.

Steve says IS HE WORRIED ABOUT THAT
OR HOPING FOR THAT?

Jane says NO, I DON'T THINK EITHER.
I THINK IT'S JUST A REALITY.
AND THEY NEVER SAID
IT WOULD BE EASY.

Steve says OKAY.
IT'S BEEN REAL EASY
HAVING YOU HERE.
THANKS A LOT, LARRY
GROSSMAN, FOR YOUR
INSIGHTS ON THIS.
WE APPRECIATE IT.

Patrick says SHORT TERM PAIN
FOR LONG TERM GAIN.

Steve says THANKS, COACH.
JUST A NOTE OF CLARIFICATION
HERE FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO
WATCHED OUR PROGRAM
ON WELFARE LAST WEEK.
WE REPORTED THAT WELFARE
RECIPIENTS IN SARNIA,
GRANT TIMMS AND HIS FAMILY,
HAD A TOTAL ANNUAL INCOME
OF 19,000 DOLLARS.
THAT'S TRUE, BUT WE WANTED
TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT NOT
ALL OF THAT 19,000 COMES FROM
PROVINCIAL WELFARE COFFERS.
8,400 DOES.
THAT'S SLIGHTLY
LESS THAN HALF.
BUT THE REST IS MADE UP
FROM FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S
DISABILITY PENSION, A CHILD
TAX CREDIT, A GST REBATE
FOR LOW INCOME CANADIANS,
AND THE PORTION OF THE
Mr. TIMMS' WIFE'S
SALARY REMAINING AFTER
WELFARE DEDUCTIONS.
WE HAVE MADE THE
CLARIFICATION.
AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM.
SO LET'S GET YOUR INPUT.
WRITE TO US IF YOU WOULD AT:
BOX 200, STATION Q,
TORONTO, ONTARIO,
M4T2T1.
OR FOR YOU INTERNET USERS,
YOU CAN REACH US THROUGH
CYBER SPACE AT:
STUDIO 2 AT TVO.ORG.
OR FOR THOSE OF YOU IN
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT TIME.

The credits read "A production of TVOntaro, copyright The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 1995."

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