Transcript: The New Cabinet | Jun 25, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated red background with the number 4.

Steve Paikin says CABINET MAKING,
THE TOUGH DECISIONS
FACING MIKE HARRIS AND
THE TEAM HE CHOOSES.

A clip of the Premier Elect, Mike Harris, shaking hands with people after a speech appears on screen. Mike is in his fifties, has short, straight, slicked back gray hair, is clean-shaven, ad wears a black suit, blue shirt, and dark tie.

In the studio, Steve sits at a table in the shape of a 4. Steve is in his thirties, has short, dark, curly brown hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a dark gray blazer, a gray shirt, and a colourful blue and turquoise tie.

Steve says WELCOME BACK, EVERYONE,
TO ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
ON MONDAY, PREMIER
ELECT MIKE HARRIS
WILL SWEAR IN HIS
FIRST CABINET.
THE FIRST PC CABINET IN
ONTARIO IN 10 YEARS.
WHAT CAN WE EXPECT OF THIS
CABINET AND WHAT CAN
THE NEW CABINET MINISTERS
EXPECT FROM THEIR NEW JOBS?
WELL, WE'VE ASKED A COUPLE
OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW A THING
OR TWO ABOUT CABINET
MAKING TO JOIN US TODAY,
AND THEY ARE: FLOYD LAUGHREN,
STILL THE FINANCE MINISTER
OF ONTARIO AND DEPUTY PREMIER
OF THE NDP GOVERNMENT
FOR ANOTHER COUPLE OF
DAYS ANYWAY, RIGHT?

Floyd Laughren appears on screen. He is in his fifties, has short, side-parte, straight, light gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a gray blazer, blue shirt, and a blue patterned tie.

Steve continues AND LARRY GROSSMAN
IS HERE, THE FORMER
PC PARTY LEADER
AND TREASURER.
WELCOME TO YOU TWO.

Larry Grossman appears on screen. Larry is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, dark gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears rounded glasses, a black suit, white shirt, and red, white, and blue patterned tie.

Steve says THEY ARE JOINED BY TWO-THIRDS
OF OUR REGULAR GANG.
HUGH MACKENZIE IS HERE.
JANE PEPINO IS HERE,

Hugh Mackenzie and Jane Pepino appear on screen sitting side by side. Hugh, to the left, is in his fortes, has short, side-parted, wavy, dark gray hair, wears thin glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and black and gray tie. Jane is in her fifties, has short, straight, dark gray hair cut in the shape of a bob, and wears circular silver earrings and a pink blazer.

Steve continues AND
MAY I SHOW TO CAMERA 1
JANE'S BEAUTIFULLY
EMBOSSED INVITATION
FROM MICHAEL HARRIS TO THE
SWEARING IN ON MONDAY.

Steve holds up Jane’s invitation.

Steve continues CONGRATULATIONS, WE'LL
LOOK FOR YOU ON CAMERA.

Jane says THANK
YOU VERY MUCH.

Steve says AND PINCH HITTING FOR PAT
GOSSAGE IS JOHN DUFFY,
LIBERAL PARTY STRATEGIST
AND PRESIDENT
OF STRATEGIC
GOVERNMENT RELATIONS.

John Duffy appears on screen. John is in his forties, has short, side-parted, straight brown hair, wears circular classes, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and a blue and green tie.

Steve says HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING
TO BE IN THIS CABINET, LARRY?

Larry says WELL, I THINK THE
OUTGOING CABINET'S
19 OR 20, ISN'T IT?

A caption reads "Larry Grossman, Former Ontario Treasurer."

Larry continues SO IT'S NOT GOING TO BE
BIGGER AND I WOULD GUESS
IT'S GOING TO BE ONE OR
TWO PORTFOLIOS SMALLER.

Floyd says 18.

Larry says YEAH, I WOULD THINK 18.
18 IS THE
CONSENSUS?

Steve says HOW MANY WOMEN?

Larry says WELL, WE DON'T KNOW.
WE'RE SPECULATING BUT MY
GUESS IS OUT OF 18,
YOU'RE GOING TO
SEE FOUR OR FIVE.

Steve says LARRY, YOU'VE BEEN INSIDE
FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.
MIKE HARRIS HAS ASKED YOU
FOR - I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S
ASKED YOU FOR ADVICE, BUT
YOU'RE IN TOUCH WITH HIM.
SO LET ME ASK
YOU, DO YOU KNOW?
DO YOU KNOW?

Larry says NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE
PREMIER'S GOING TO DO
UNTIL HE MAKES
FINAL DECISION,
WHICH WILL BE
SATURDAY AND SUNDAY
HE'S GOING TO FINALIZE
THOSE DECISIONS
AND MAKE HIS CALLS.

Steve says AND MAKE HIS
PHONE CALLS.

Larry says A LOT OF
PORTABLE CELL PHONES
BEING RENTED THIS WEEK.
[laughing]

Jane says AND EXTRA BATTERIES
PURCHASED.

Steve says LET'S JUST, BEFORE WE
BROADEN OUR DISCUSSION HERE,
LET'S SEE HOW CABINET
MAKING HAS SORT OF CHANGED
A BIT OVER THE YEARS.

A red and gold slate appears on screen with a title that reads "Fact File."

Steve reads what is written on the slide and says LET'S LOOK INSIDE
OUR FACT FILE HERE.
THE LAST TIME WE SAW BOB
RAE'S GOVERNMENT
IN THE HOUSE WAS IN
DECEMBER AND AT THAT TIME
RAE HAD A 25 MEMBER CABINET IF
YOU INCLUDE ALL THE SUBS AS
WELL, THE JUNIOR
MINISTERS, I GUESS.
9 OF RAE'S
MINISTERS WERE WOMEN.
NOW, LET'S FLIP
THAT AROUND, ALAN.

The slide changes and Steve continues to read the numbers aloud.

Steve says BOB RAE'S FIRST CABINET
SWORN IN OCTOBER 1ST, 1990,
IT WAS A LITTLE LARGER THAN
THE CABINET HE FINISHED
HIS TERM WITH, IN THAT
CASE, 27 MEMBERS.
11 OF THEM WOMEN.
THAT WAS AN ALL TIME
RECORD FOR ONTARIO
WHEN THAT HAPPENED.

The slide changes and Steve continues to read the numbers aloud.

Steve says OKAY, ONE MORE TIME.
HERE'S DAVID PETERSON'S
FIRST CABINET.
THIS IS 10 YEARS AGO.
TEN YEARS AGO THIS
MONDAY, HAD 27 MEMBERS,
2 OF THEM WOMEN IN
THE FIRST CABINET.
HOWEVER BY THE END OF
PETERSON'S FIVE YEARS IN
OFFICE, THERE WERE 8
DIFFERENT WOMEN WHO HAD SAT
IN CABINET, AND FINALLY,

The slide changes and Steve continues to read the numbers aloud.

Steve says GOING WAY BACK TO THE LAST
TORY CABINET, THIS IS 1985,
THAT OF FRANK MILLER,
HE SWORE IN 31
MINISTERS THEN.

John says LOOK AT THE
SIZE OF THAT CABINET.

Back in the studio, Steve says 2 OF THEM WOMEN
AND OF THAT CABINET,
THERE WERE TWO MINISTERS OF
NOTE THAT I THINK WE WANT
TO PAY ATTENTION TO, THE
NATURAL RESOURCES MINISTER,
EVERYBODY, WAS?

Everybody says MIKE HARRIS.

Steve says HARRIS.
THE EDUCATION MINISTER
IN THAT CABINET WAS?

Larry says LARRY GROSSMAN.

Steve says CORRECT.

Larry says OR AS THE PROMPTER SAYS,
LAWRENCE SHELDON GROSSMAN,
FOR WHICH I THANK YOU.
[laughing]
I'M GLAD IT WAS UP THERE,
I WOULD HAVE FORGOTTEN, STEVE.

Steve says YEAH, I DO WHAT I CAN TO
HELP YOU OUT HERE, LARRY.
OKAY, ANY CHANGES IN
TERMS OF MINISTRIES?
WHAT WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE
ON THAT SCORE?
FLOYD, DO YOU THINK
ANY MINISTRIES
ARE GOING TO
DISAPPEAR?

Floyd says YES, I DO.
BELIEVE ME, I
HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED
FOR ADVICE IN THIS CABINET
MEETING EXERCISE,

A caption reads "Floyd Laughren, Finance Minister."

Floyd continues BUT MY GUESS WOULD BE THAT
THERE'D BE A DOWNSIZING
OF A COUPLE OF MINISTRIES,
AND IF I HAD TO GUESS
WHICH ONES THEY WERE, AND
BELIEVE ME IT'S A GUESS,
IT WOULD BE ROLLING
SOMETHING LIKE TOURISM
INTO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
AND PUTTING SOMETHING
CITIZENSHIP INTO ANOTHER
MINISTRY, AS WELL.
SO THAT'D BE MY GUESS, BUT
BELIEVE ME, THAT'S ALL IT IS.

Steve says AND THE VALUE OF DOING
THAT WOULD BE WHAT?

Larry says WELL, EVERY TIME YOU
HAVE ANOTHER MINISTRY,
YOU HAVE A DEPUTY,
ASSISTANT DEPUTY MINISTERS,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTORS,
A LOT BUREAUCRACY,
WHICH MEANS A
LOT OF SALARIES,
AND MORE THAN THAT YOU HAVE
A LOT OF EXPENDITURES
THAT FLOW FROM IT
INEVITABLY.
IT'S JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE
SECTOR WHERE YOU'VE GOT
A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE
WORKING ON POLICY,
WORKING ON
IMPLEMENTATION.
THEY'RE HIRING PRIVATE
SECTOR CONSULTANTS.
THEY'RE GENERATING
A LOT OF WORK
AND A OF ACTIVITY AND
A LOT OF EXPENDITURE.
SO IT WILL SAVE MONEY.

Hugh says THERE ARE GOING TO BE A
LOT OF SYMBOLIC ACTIONS.

A caption reads "Hugh Mackenzie, Former Aide to Bob Rae."

Steve says WHAT DO YOU
MEAN SYMBOLIC?

Hugh says WELL, SYMBOLIC.
ONE SYMBOLIC THING
WOULD BE REDUCING
THE NUMBER OF
MINISTRIES.
I THINK THAT
WILL HAPPEN.
I ALSO THINK THAT ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT THE
GOVERNMENT IS LIKELY TO BE
DOING IS COMBING THROUGH
THE THINGS THAT MIKE HARRIS
WAS TALKING ABOUT DURING
THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND
FINDING THE THINGS THAT
THEY THINK THEY CAN DO
QUICKLY WITHOUT A LOT
OF FUSS TO CREATE THE
IMPRESSION THAT
THEY'RE MOVING QUICKLY.
AND THAT A LOT OF
THAT, I THINK,
WILL BE SYMBOLIC, AS WELL.

Steve says HOW IMPORTANT IS IT
ACTUALLY TO GET OUT
OF THE BLOCKS WITH A
GREAT - YOU KNOW,
THE FIRST THING MIKE
HARRIS REALLY DOES THAT'S
IMPORTANT THAT WE'LL WATCH
IS MAKING A CABINET.
IS THAT A BIG DEAL?

John says WELL, I THINK SO, AND FOR
MORE THAN SYMBOLIC REASONS,

A caption reads "John Duffy, Liberal Strategist."

John continues STEVE, BECAUSE WHO HE PUTS
IN WHICH CABINET PORTFOLIOS
WILL TELL YOU A LOT ABOUT
JUST HOW AGGRESSIVE,
JUST HOW CONFRONTATIONAL,
JUST HAVE REVOLUTIONARY
THIS GOVERNMENT IS
ACTUALLY GOING TO BE.
RIGHT NOW WE
DON'T KNOW.
THE CAMPAIGN STYLE
WAS CERTAINLY VERY
REVOLUTIONARY, ALMOST
IN-YOUR-FACE POLITICS,
VERY, VERY FORWARD
AND VERY PUNCHY.
VERY EFFECTIVE.
WHETHER THEY SETTLE DOWN
IN THE TRADITION MODE
OF ONTARIO GOVERNMENT, WHICH
SOME THINK THEY MIGHT,
OR WHETHER THEY CONTINUE
WITH THAT KIND OF STYLE,
YOU'LL BE ABLE TO SEE THAT
BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE IN SOME OF THE
CHAIRS, AND THAT'S WHAT
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
LOOKING TO ON MONDAY.

Steve says AND, JANE, AS PERSON WHO'S
FOLLOWED TORY POLITICS
AND PARTICIPATED IN IT
FOR A LOT OF YEARS,
I'M WONDERING WHETHER YOU
AT THIS STAGE ARE SITTING
DOWN AND THINKING,
THIS CABINET
HAS TO HAVE X
NUMBER OF WOMEN.
THIS CABINET HAS TO HAVE
X NUMBER OF MEMBERS
FROM METROPOLITAN TORONTO.
THIS CABINET HAS TO HAVE,
TO THE EXTENT THAT IT
EXISTS ANYMORE,
THE RED TORY PART
OF THE PARTY
REPRESENTED.
ARE YOU THINKING
THAT WAY?

Jane says I'M NOT BECAUSE I DON'T
THINK THAT THAT'S
THE WAY THAT MIKE HARRIS
IS THINKING ANYMORE,
THAT FRANKLY POLITICIANS
ARE THINKING ANYMORE.

A caption reads "Jane Pepino, Ontario Tory Activist."

Jane continues I THINK THAT WHOLE
RIGHT/LEFT SPECTRUM AND
TRYING TO PLACE PEOPLE
ALONG IT HAS
BASICALLY DISAPPEARED.
IT COMES BACK TO PRINCIPLES
AND WHAT ARE GUIDING
PRINCIPLES, FIRST
PRINCIPLES.
SO I THINK THAT WHEN YOU
COME TO CABINET MAKING,
YOU'LL PROBABLY SEE
THE TRADITIONAL
GEOGRAPHIC DIVERSITY.
I THINK THAT'S
NECESSARY FOR -

Mike says THE NORTH, THE EAST,
THE SOUTHWEST -
YEAH, TO BRING VOICES

Jane says AND - EXACTLY.
[laughing]

Larry says ARE YOU CROSSING
THE FLOOR?
IT'S NOT TOO
LATE.

Mike says WAIT A MINUTE, HOW MANY
NORTHERN MEMBERS
DO THE TORIES HAVE?

Jane says LOTS.

Larry says THE ONE WITH THE
PREMIER WHICH HELPS.

Steve says YOU CALL THAT
THE NORTH?
OKAY, I GET IT.

Floyd says THAT'S THE
FARTHEST NORTH.
THE OTHER IS
ERNIE EVES.

Steve says THAT'S THE ONLY OTHER
AND THAT'S MARGINAL-
[talking over each other]

Floyd says COULD I CHALLENGE JANE
ON THE LEFT/RIGHT?
Steve says SURE.
FOR HEAVEN SAKES, HOW CAN
YOU SAY THAT THOSE
LINES ARE BEING BLURRED AND
THAT'S OLD-STYLE POLITICS
WHEN MIKE HARRIS
RAN, AND WON.
I MEAN, I'M NOT BEGRUDGING
THAT THAT HE WON,
ON VERY RIGHT
WING POLITICS.

Jane says YOU SEE, I DISAGREE
FUNDAMENTALLY
WITH YOUR DEFINITION
OF THAT.

Floyd says BUT THE FACT IS THAT RALPH
KLINE AND MIKE HARRIS
BOTH HAVE RUN ON VERY
TRADITIONAL - AS COMPARED
TO THE CAMPAIGNS THAT
LARRY GROSSMAN RAN
OR EVEN FRANK MILLER, I
MIGHT SAY, SO IT IS -

Jane says BOB RAE RAN ON A RECORD
WHICH INCLUDED,
FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE,
FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.
SO I DON'T KNOW HOW
YOU CAN SAY THAT FISCAL
RESPONSIBILITY, FOR
EXAMPLE, IS -

Hugh says I DON'T THINK
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
IS PUSHING BUTTONS
THAT EVOKE A VERY, VERY
RIGHT-WING RESPONSE.
I THINK THAT IN
THAT RESPECT,
HARRIS' CAMPAIGN WAS A VERY
TRADITIONAL KIND OF -
[talking over each other]

Steve says WE'RE NOT GOING TO
RE-FIGHT WHY THE ELECTION
WAS WON OR LOST -

John says IN TERMS OF THE
CABINET, THOUGH,
IN TERMS OF THE CABINET I
THINK THE AXIS ON WHICH
THE ELECTION TURNED
WAS NOT LEFT SLASH RIGHT.
IT WAS ABOUT CHANGE
VERSUS THE STATUS QUO,
AND THE ISSUE HERE IS HOW
MUCH DOES HARRIS -
IT MAY HAVE BEEN RIGHT-WING
POLITICS IN SUBSTANCE,
BUT THAT'S THE THING THAT
VOTERS RESPONDED TO.
HOW MUCH DOES HARRIS CARRY
THROUGH THAT CHANGE BORE
THE SAME AXIS IN SHAKING
UP THE STYLE OF GOVERNING
THROUGH PUTTING SHAKE-UP
PEOPLE IN THE CHAIRS.

Larry says I WANT TO PREDICT FOR YOU
THAT THE STYLE THAT
HE SHOWED DURING THE CAMPAIGN,
WHICH WAS WILLINGNESS
TO MAKE DIFFICULT DECISIONS
AND TO PLOUGH STRAIGHTFORWARD
WITH CHANGE AND REFORM IS
GOING TO BE REFLECTED
IN THE MAKEUP OF
THE CABINET.
I THINK SOME OF THE
TRADITIONAL CRITERIA
ARE GOING TO BE IGNORED AND
I THINK WITH 18 APPOINTMENTS
OUT OF 82, HE IS GOING TO PICK
THE 18 VERY BEST PEOPLE
HE CAN TO GUIDE HIM THROUGH
THE FIRST TWO YEARS.
AFTER THE FIRST TWO YEARS,
I THINK THERE MAY BE SOME
OTHER DECISIONS TO BE MADE,
BUT MY PREDICTION IS,
THE VERY BEST COMMUNICATORS
AND THE - I DON'T WANT TO
USE THE WORD TOUGHEST,
BUT THE MOST FIRM
AND BUSINESSLIKE PEOPLE.

Steve says EXCEPT THAT - I KNOW
THIS IS A PARTY
THAT DOES NOT BELIEVE
IN QUOTAS, RIGHT?

Larry says RIGHT.

Steve says THE TORIES DON'T
BELIEVE IN QUOTAS.
HAVING SAID THAT, YOU CAN'T
HAVE 18 WHITE MEN
IN THE CABINET TODAY.
YOU CAN'T HAVE A CABINET
THAT DOESN'T HAVE
ANY REPRESENTATION OF
METROPOLITAN TORONTO
OR THE EAST OR
THE SOUTHWEST.
YOU CAN'T HAVE A CABINET OR
IT WOULD SEEM DIFFICULT
TO HAVE A CABINET IF YOU HAVE
THREE SO-CALLED ETHNIC
MEMBERS IN THE CAUCUS THAT
DIDN'T INCLUDE ONE OF THEM.
DON'T THOSE RULES
APPLY ANYMORE?

Larry says WELL, FIRSTLY, I DO THINK,
AND THIS ISN'T JUST PARTY
RHETORIC, WHEN YOU LOOK AT
IT WE HAD SOME PRETTY GOOD
WOMEN FRONTBENCHERS.
LIZ WITMER AND DIANNE
CUNNINGHAM WOULD BE TWO,
MARGARET MARLAND.
WE HAVE ELECTED A NUMBER
OF TOPNOTCH PEOPLE
FROM OUTSIDE OF
METROPOLITAN TORONTO.
AND FROM INSIDE
METROPOLITAN TORONTO,
I MEAN, Mr. HARRIS IS
NOT FACING ONE OF THOSE
TERRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES
WHERE HE'S SAYING,
IN ORDER TO MEET SOME
OF THOSE CRITERIA,
I HAVE TO GO WAY BEHIND
MY QUALITY PEOPLE.

Steve says DO YOU WANT ONE WORD ON
THIS BEFORE WE GO TO -

Floyd says I AGREE WITH PART
OF WHAT LARRY SAID.
THE OTHER THING I'D
EXPAND ON IS THAT I THINK
HE'LL DO THINGS
VERY QUICKLY.
I THINK THAT THERE'S ONE
THING THAT POLITICIANS
HAVE LEARNED WHEN THEY'RE
GOING TO MAKE FAIRLY
DRAMATIC CHANGES, WHICH I THINK
ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FLOW
IF Mr. HARRIS IS GOING TO
DELIVER ON WHAT HE SAID
HE'S GOING TO DO, THEN
HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO -
HE WILL DO THEM
VERY QUICKLY.
I THINK RALPH KLINE
LEARNED THAT IN ALBERTA.
SO I WOULD EXPECT THAT
HE'LL MOVE, AS LARRY SAYS,
AND ALSO DO IT
VERY QUICKLY.

Steve says WE'VE GOT A SHORT LIST HERE
OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO,
I GUESS, THE EXPERTS
PREDICT ARE GOING TO BE
BIG PLAYERS IN
THIS GOVERNMENT.
SO, ALAN, LET'S JUST START
TO BRING SOME OF THESE
BASEBALL CARDS
UP, IF YOU LIKE,
AND WE'LL CHAT A
LITTLE BIT ABOUT THEM.
HERE'S THE FIRST ONE.
BILL SAUNDERSON, WHO
ACTUALLY REPRESENTS
THIS RIDING THAT TVO'S
IN, EGLINTON,

A slide appears on screen with a picture of Bill Saunderson with a caption that reads "Riding Eglinton, First Elected June 1995." Bill is in his fifties, has short, straight, side-parted gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and black tie.

Steve says AND WHAT ARE WE GOING
TO SAY ABOUT HIM?
THIS IS A GUY WHO'S 61 AND
HAS GOT A LOT OF EXPERIENCE
IN THE FINANCIAL SERVICES
SECTOR, AND WILL BE,
LARRY, WHAT MINISTER?
[laughing]
COME ON, YOU KNOW.
NOT ON YOUR LIFE, BUT I

Larry says THINK BILL IS AT THE TOP OF
THE LIST FOR MINISTERS AND
HE WILL BE - HE'S A LITTLE
LESS EXPERIENCED ON THE
COMMUNICATION SIDE.
HE HASN'T HAD TO DEAL IN
THE POLITICAL SPHERE.
HE'S THE KIND OF STRAIGHTFORWARD
LET'S GET DOWN TO IT
AND GET SOME
ACTION DONE PERSON -

Hugh says I THINK HE'S ONE OF
THE BELLWETHER PEOPLE.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
THAT MEANS THAT WHO PREMIER
HARRIS PICKS TO BE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE I
THINK WILL BE AN IMPORTANT
SIGNAL OF THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT
THAT THEY WANT TO HAVE,
AND HE'S CLEARLY ONE OF
THE CANDIDATES FOR THAT.
I THINK IF BILL SAUNDERSON
IS THE NEXT MINISTER OF FINANCE,
I THINK YOU MAY - YOU CAN
ANTICIPATE THAT THERE
ARE GOING TO BE SOME
TOUGH QUESTIONS ASKED
INTERNALLY WITHIN THE TORY
CABINET ABOUT SOME
OF THE TAX AND DEFICIT -

Larry says HE COULD DO THAT FROM
MANAGEMENT BOARD, THOUGH.

Hugh says HE COULD DO FROM
MANAGEMENT BOARD,
BUT THAT'S AN - WELL, I
THINK THAT THE KEY ONES
WOULD BE MANAGEMENT
BOARD OR -

Steve says LET'S MOVE ON.
WE JUST MENTIONED PARRY
SOUND A SECOND AGO.
HERE'S ERNIE EVES,
FIRST ELECTED 1981.

A slide appears on screen with a picture of Ernie Eves with a caption that reads "Riding Parry Sound, First Elected June 1981, P.C. House Leader." Ernie is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, dark brown hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black shirt.

Steve continues I THINK HE WON BY, WHAT,
FIVE OR SIX VOTES?

John says SIX VOTES.
LANDSLIDE ERNIE.

Steve says LANDSLIDE ERNIE.

Floyd Laughren says TURNED IT
AROUND SINCE THEN.

Steve says IS HE MIKE HARRIS'S CLOSEST
CONFIDANT IN THIS CAUCUS,
DO YOU SUPPOSE?

Larry says YES, CERTAINLY.
ABSOLUTELY AND I'M SURE
IT'LL BE REFLECTED
IN THE LINEUP OF
THE CABINET.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO
TELL US HOW?
LIKELY - WELL,

Larry says I DON'T KNOW HOW,
BUT I WOULD
GUESS, YOU KNOW,
MOST PEOPLE HAVE SPECULATED
THAT HE WOULD BE
THE LOGICAL CHOICE
FOR DEPUTY PREMIER,
FOLLOWING IN
FLOYD'S FOOTSTEPS.
AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

Floyd Laughren says SLOT HIM
INTO FINANCE IF I WAS -

Larry says YES, HE WOULD BE A
VERY GOOD CHOICE.

John says HE WOULD BE A
GOOD CHOICE.
I THINK THE INTERESTING
QUESTION WITH EVES IS,
DO YOU PUT HIM IN ALIGNED
DEPARTMENT WHERE HE
HAS BIG DEPARTMENTAL
RESPONSIBILITIES,
OR DO YOU GIVE HIM ONE OF
THESE ROLES WHERE HE IS A
GOVERNMENT HOUSE LEADER AND
OVERALL POLITICAL MANAGER
UNENCUMBERED BY ALIGNED
RESPONSIBILITY DEPARTMENT.

Steve says THAT'S WHAT HE'S BEEN
DOING IN THE LAST
FIVE, SIX YEARS.
HOUSE LEADER.
SORT OF A BEHIND
THE SCENES GUY.

John says IT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE WHAT
I UNDERSTAND IS WHEN
THE TORIES GET
TOGETHER IN CAUCUS,
YOU NEVER SEE BOTH HARRIS
AND EVES THERE AT THE SAME
TIME BECAUSE THEY DON'T
BOTH HAVE TO BE THERE.
BUT AS SOON AS HARRIS HAS
TO GO, EVES COMES IN,
AND THE MEETING IS STILL
CONTINUING, SUPERVISED
AND BEING LED PROPERLY,
BECAUSE EVES IS THAT CLOSE
TO HARRIS AND THAT
EFFECTIVE WITH THE GROUP.

Steve says NEXT GUY IS AN
INTERESTING CHOICE.
CHRIS STOCKWELL.

A slide appears on screen with a picture of Chris Stockwell with a caption that reads "Riding Etobicoke West, First Elected 1990, Management Board Critic" Chris is in his forties, ahs short, balding, dark brown curly hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a blue suit, and black shirt.

Steve says ETOBICOKE WEST,
METROPOLITAN TORONTO,
A ROOKIE LAST
TIME OUT.
MANAGEMENT BOARD CRITIC
AND A GUY WHO PROBABLY
IS THE BEST HECKLER THEY HAD
ON THAT SIDE OF THE HOUSE.
I GUESS THE QUESTIONS THAT
I'M HEARING BEING ASKED
ABOUT CHRIS STOCKWELL ARE,
CAN HE BE AS EFFECTIVE
IN A MINISTRY AS HE CLEARLY
WAS AS AN OPPONENT?

Floyd says WHAT DO YOU THINK?
WELL, I'M A MINORITY
IN MY OWN PARTY.
HE WAS MY CRITIC FOR
A WHILE, ONCE AGAIN,
AND I WOULD GIVE
CHRIS STOCKWELL
MAJOR RESPONSIBILITIES.
A LOT OF PEOPLE
WOULD DISAGREE WITH ME.
BUT I THINK THAT
THERE'S TALENT THERE
AND I THINK IT
SHOULD BE UTILIZED.

Steve says WHAT MAKES YOU SAY
THERE'S TALENT THERE?
I GUESS CLEARLY SOME PEOPLE

I DON'T THINK I'M
TELLING TALES OUT OF
SCHOOL WHEN SOME PEOPLE
THINK CHRIS IS JUST
A LOOSE CANON.

Floyd says I KNOW, THAT HE'S
A LOOSE CANON,
BUT I THINK THAT GIVEN
RESPONSIBILITIES
THAT HE COULD
DO THE JOB.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT AS
AN OPPOSITION MEMBER.
I SAW CHRIS IN OPERATION
IN THE LEGISLATURE
AND I THINK HE'S CAPABLE.
BUT HE NEEDS TO BE GIVEN
THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

Larry says AND IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY
FLOYD AND I HAVE BOTH SEEN
PEOPLE APPOINTED TO CABINET
AND GROW INTO THE JOB QUICKLY
AND UNEXPECTEDLY IN SOME
CASE - I'M NOT REFERRING
TO CHRIS IN
PARTICULAR HERE.
BUT THE PREMIER HAS TO
HAVE SOME INTUITION
THAT THIS IS A PERSON
OF TALENT WHO
GIVEN THIS RESPONSIBILITY
WILL GROW WITH IT.
WE'VE ALSO SEEN, OF
COURSE, SOME VERY SMART,
BRIGHT PEOPLE GET INTO
CABINET AND ABSOLUTELY CRASH.
CHAVIVA HOSEK.
SHOULD HAVE BEEN
TERRIFIC.

Hugh says BUT THAT'S WHAT MAKES THIS
WHOLE THING SUCH A MUG'S GAME.
IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO
PREDICT HOW SOMEONE
IS GOING TO DO.
IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MATTER
WHAT THEIR PREVIOUS
EXPERIENCE WAS
OUTSIDE OF POLITICS.
WHAT THEIR PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE
WAS INSIDE OF POLITICS.
I MEAN, WE DON'T
HAVE TO NAME NAMES,
BUT WE ALL KNOW PEOPLE THAT
CAME IN WITH TREMENDOUS
EXPECTATIONS INTO
CABINETS AND -

John says I'LL GIVE A NAME IN TERMS
OF SUCCESSFUL CABINET
BUILDING AND THAT'S THE
PRIME MINISTER JEAN CHRETIEN
AND THE TOUCHSTONE THAT HE
CHOSE FOR HIS CABINET MAKING
EXERCISE WHICH EXPERIENCED
AND A TRACK RECORD
WITH HIM, AND
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I'M
HEARING FROM CONSERVATIVES,
THAT PREMIER ELECT HARRIS
VALUES VERY HIGHLY.

Larry says DON'T, LET'S STICK ON
PROVINCIAL POLITICS; I DON'T
WANT TO GET INTO DUPUIS
AND COPPS AND MARLOW.

Steve says NEXT ONE, ALAN.
ALAN, GET ME
OUT OF THIS.
BRING THE NEXT ONE.
OKAY, HERE'S
DIANNE CUNNINGHAM.

A slide appears on screen with a picture of Dianne Cunningham with a caption that reads "Riding London North, First Elected 1988 (by election), deputy leader P.C. Party of Ontario." Dianne is in her fifties, has short, dark blond hair cut in the shape of a bob, has thin rounded glasses, and wears a dark blazer.

Steve says SHE RAN AGAINST MIKE HARRIS
FOR THE LEADERSHIP
OF THE PARTY.
ONLY TWO PEOPLE RAN
IN THAT CONVENTION.
SHE CAME SECOND,
OBVIOUSLY, AND SHE -
[laughing]

Jane says NOT A
CONVENTION, REMEMBER?

Steve says NOT A CONVENTION?

Jane says DIRECT VOTE.

Steve says OKAY, DIRECT VOTE.
WELL, IT WAS A
LEADERSHIP EVENT.
IT WAS A LEADERSHIP
EVENT, THAT'S A GOOD -

Hugh says THE DEPUTY
MINISTER OF FINANCE
JOB'S ALREADY FILLED.

Steve says SO I SHOULDN'T APPLY, IS
THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
WITH MY COMMAND
OF ARTHRITIC,
IS THAT WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING?

Larry says WELL,
YOU'RE A LIBERAL ANYWAY.

John says AND YOU KNOW
THE POLKAROO, SO...
THANK YOU.

Steve says DIANNE CUNNINGHAM ONE WOULD
EXPECT - BEING DEPUTY
LEADER LAST TIME, YOU'D
EXPECT SHE'D BE IN
FOR A BIG JOB THIS TIME.
ARE THOSE REASONABLE
EXPECTATIONS?
WHO WANTS TO
BITE ON THAT?

Jane says I THINK THEY ARE.
I THINK SHE'S
SEASONED.
I MEAN, IF YOU GO BY
DUFFY'S TOUCHSTONE
OF EXPERIENCE AND JUST
HAVING BEEN WEATHERED,
I THINK DIANNE'S
DONE IT.
SHE'S BEEN EFFECTIVE
IN HER CRITIC ROLE.
SHE'S HAD BROAD EXPERIENCE
AND EXPOSURE IN THE AREAS
OF EDUCATION PARTICULARLY.

Steve says EVERY TALKS ABOUT EDUCATION
BECAUSE SHE WAS, WHAT,
CHAIR OF THE LONDON
SCHOOL BOARD FOR A WHILE
OR A TRUSTEE ANYWAY.

Larry says STEVE, I THINK ONE OF THE
INTERESTING THINGS WE HAVE
TO KEEP IN MIND HERE IS
THAT WHILE TREASURY AND
MANAGEMENT BOARD ARE TWO
OF THE TOUGHEST JOBS,
FINANCE, I THINK FLOYD MAY
DISAGREE WITH ME ON THIS,
I THINK THAT IN THIS
ADMINISTRATION THOSE
ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO
BE THE TOUGHEST POSITIONS.
SEEMS TO ME THE TOUGHEST
POSITIONS ARE THE IMPLEMENTERS
OF THE
FINANCE DECISIONS,
WHICH ARE MOSTLY DRIVEN BY
THE DECISIONS THAT HAVE
ALREADY BEEN MADE, SO THAT
THE MINISTER OF HEALTH,
THE MINISTER OF COMMUNITY
AND SOCIAL SERVICES,
MAYBE THE MINISTER OF
EDUCATION DOING THE LEGUCRATS

Steve says HOW ABOUT LABOUR,
GETTING RID OF BILL 40?

Larry says THE MINISTER OF LABOUR,
THOSE AND IF YOU THINK
ABOUT IT FOR A SECOND,
THOSE FOUR THAT WE'VE
JUST MENTIONED ARE THE
ONES WITH THE MOST BROAD
CONSTITUENCIES, THE MOST
SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS,
AND THOSE GROUPS DO NOT
TRADITIONALLY GO AFTER
THE TREASURER OR THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE.

Steve says DO YOU SHARE
THAT VIEW?
THEY GO OUT TO
ALIGNED MINISTERS.

Floyd says WELL, PARTLY, BUT TO GO
BACK TO YOUR FIRST QUESTION
ABOUT DIANNE CUNNINGHAM.
I LIKE DIANNE
CUNNINGHAM AS A PERSON,
BUT I DON'T THINK SHE'LL
GET A MAJOR PORTFOLIO.

Steve says BECAUSE?

Floyd says WELL, I JUST DON'T THINK
THAT IT'S THERE AND
THAT Mr. HARRIS WILL
DO IT FOR HER.

Steve says YOU DON'T THINK IT'S
THERE 'CAUSE WHAT,
THEIR RELATIONS ARE
NOT GREAT OR WHAT?

Floyd says PARTLY THAT, AND ALSO I
JUST - I HAVE A FEELING
THAT WHAT YOU AND I
MIGHT THINK ABOUT
DIANNE CUNNINGHAM IS NOT SHARED
BY A LOT OF THE SENIOR TORIES.

Steve says JOHN.

John says I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT,
BUT I WANT TO PICK UP
ON SOMETHING THAT LARRY
SAID, AND THAT IS,
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE
THE MOST EXPERIENCE DEALING
WITH THE CONSTITUENT GROUPS
THAT RELATE TO ANY
MINISTRY.
SO DIANNE CUNNINGHAM HAS HER
BACKGROUND IN EDUCATION.
AL LEACH, FOR EXAMPLE,
WHO IS A REALLY TALENTED
COMPETENT GUY, HAS
HIS ROOTS IN
THE TRANSPORTATION
CONSTITUENCIES.
ALL THOSE ENERGY AND
ENGINEERING GROUPS GIVES -
OF THE TTC, EXACTLY.
THE ISSUE IS, IN TERMS
OF HOW RADICAL
THE CABINET'S GOING TO BE.
DO YOU PUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO
HAVE BEEN REPRESENTATIVES
AND TRIBUNES OF THOSE
INTERESTS IN CHARGE
OF THE MINISTRIES, OR DO
YOU KEEP THEM AS FAR AWAY
FROM THEM AS POSSIBLE?
AND DIANNE CUNNINGHAM
IN EDUCATION WOULD
ONLY BE THERE UNDER
THE STRICTEST ORDERS.
DIANNE, FORGET EVERYTHING
YOU EVER LEARNED
AS A SCHOOL BOARD
TRUSTEE.
YOU'RE HERE TO REALLY
SHAKE THIS PLACE UP.
LEACH WOULD BE: FORGET
EVERYTHING YOU EVER SAID
ABOUT HOW WE NEED LOTS OF
SUBWAYS EVERYWHERE
ALL OVER METRO TORONTO.
YOU'RE HERE, NOT TO DO SOME
SUBWAYS THAT OTHER PEOPLE
WANT TO HAVE HAPPEN.

Larry says THERE IS NOT A TRADITION
IN ONTARIO OF APPOINTING
DOCTORS AS MINISTER OF
HEALTH, FOR EXAMPLE.

Floyd says I THINK THAT'S TRUE AND THE
LIBERALS LEARNED A LESSON,
I BELIEVE, AND I DON'T WAY
THIS IN A MEAN SENSE
AT ALL, WHEN THEY
APPOINTED BILL WRYE,
WHO WAS WIDELY VIEWED
AS A FRIEND OF LABOUR,
AS MINISTER OF LABOUR, AND
I THINK THEY REGRETTED IT
AFTERWARDS, BECAUSE I THINK
IT WAS TOO HARD ON BILL.
HE HAD A VERY
TOUGH TIME.

Steve says WE HAVE GOT A FEW
MORE NAMES WE WANT
TO GET INTO THE MIX HERE.
HERE'S THE NEXT FELLOW WE
WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT.
CAM JACKSON,

A slide appears on screen with a picture of Cam Jackson with a caption that reads "Riding Burlington South, First Elected 1985, Community and Social Services Critic." Cam is in his forties, has short, side-parted, dark brown, straight hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and black tie.

Steve BURLINGTON SOUTH.
I THINK HE ONLY WON HIS
RIDING THIS TIME
BY ABOUT 19,000 VOTES?
WAS IT SOMETHING
LIKE THAT?
IT WAS A REAL
SQUEAKER.

Larry says IT
WAS CLOSING UP FAST.

Steve says ANYWAY, YOU COULD SEE
FROM THAT BASEBALL CARD,
JACKSON WAS THE COMMUNITY
AND SOCIAL SERVICES CRITIC.
THERE IS IT AS
THE BOTTOM THERE,
AND OBVIOUSLY WHEN
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
WORK FOR WELFARE.

Floyd Laughren says
HE'S THE GUY.

Steve says HE MIGHT BE THE GUY.
MIGHT HE BE THE GUY?
I KEEP LOOKING AT YOU
BECAUSE YOU'RE OUR LINK
TO THE INSIDE OF MIKE HARRIS'S
OFFICE RIGHT NOW, SO.

John says WHAT
ABOUT JANE?

Larry says THAT'S RIGHT.
I MEAN, PREMIER'S BEEN
GETTING ADVICE -

Jane says TO THE EXTENT THAT WE
MIGHT KNOW ANYTHING.
HERE'S THE ARROGANCE
OF POWER ALREADY.

John says IT'S BEEN A GOOD -
LOYALTY TO THE LEADER

Larry says AND HIS RIGHT
TO MAKE THE DECISIONS.
LISTEN, I CAN TELL YOU
THIS FACTUALLY THAT
HE IS CONSIDERING
EXACTLY THE ISSUES
WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE:
EXPERIENCE,
WILLINGNESS TO MAKE
TOUGH DECISIONS,
ABILITY TO
COMMUNICATE.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS
AND HE IS, I AM SURE,
GOING TO COME DOWN ON
THE SIDE OF SAYING,
AS FLOYD SAID, I HAVE TO
PRODUCE BIG TIME ON TOUGH
ISSUES AND TOUGH DECISIONS
IN THE FIRST YEAR OR TWO.
AND THAT'S GOING TO
BE THE DRIVING FORCE.

Hugh says WE'VE HEARD THE ADVICE
THAT LARRY HAS GIVEN MIKE.
Steve says WHICH IS WHAT?
WHICH IS, PUT THE TOUGH,
GOOD COMMUNICATORS,
THE SKILLED POLITICIANS,
IN THE PORTFOLIOS
THAT ARE GOING TO
INVOLVE THE BIG CUTS.
YOU DON'T THINK
IT'S CAM JACKSON?

Floyd says NOT IN MY VIEW.

Steve says WHAT, HE'S
NOT TOUGH ENOUGH?

Floyd says NO, I DON'T THINK HE'S
A GOOD COMMUNICATOR.

Larry says
I DON'T AGREE.
I THINK HE'S
EXPERIENCED AND
HE IS A GOOD
COMMUNICATOR.

Steve says OKAY, HERE'S ANOTHER
GUY WHO'S BEEN AROUND
AN AWFULLY LONG TIME
IN THE TORY BENCHES.
THIS IS NORM STERLING,
FROM EASTERN ONTARIO.

A slide with a photo of Norm Sterling appears on screen and the title reads "Riding Carleton, First Elected 1977, P.C. Caucus Chair." Norm is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, light gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit and white shirt.

Steve says AGAIN I THINK ONE OF THE
MEMBERS WHO'S CLOSER TO
MIKE PERSONALLY THAN THE
OTHERS, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT,
I CAN BE CONVINCED
THAT THAT'S NOT
IF THAT'S NOT TRUE.
DOES ANYBODY WANT TO -
ANYBODY KNOW ABOUT THAT?

Larry says WELL, HE'S BEEN
THERE LONGER THAN
I GUESS ANYONE ELSE.

John says HE'S BEEN
IN THE LEGISLATURE -

Larry says OH, I'M SORRY,
LESS ONE MEMBER.
YES.
MY HONOURABLE
COLLEAGUE HERE.

Steve says THE LEGISLATURE
BEHIND FLOYD LAUGHREN?

Floyd says NO, NO.

Larry says WILDMAN WAS
ELECTED IN '75.
WHATEVER, NORM HAS
BEEN AROUND AND BEEN
THROUGH THE WARS WITH MIKE,
AND BRINGS SOME EXPERIENCE
WHICH WILL BE BADLY
NEEDED, WITH,
WHAT IS IT, 60
NEW MPPs.
62 ROOKIE MPPS ON OUR SIDE,
SO I WOULD EXPECT NORM
TO BE SOMEWHERE CLOSE.

John says I WOULD THINK THAT
IF YOU WERE TO -
DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU
WANT TO DO WITH EVES,
IF YOU WERE TO PUT HIM
IN ALIGNED DEPARTMENT,
YOU'D PROBABLY MAKE
STERLING WITH ALL WEALTH
OF LEGISLATIVE EXPERIENCE
AND ALL THAT WEB
OF CONTACTS ON ALL SIDES
OF THE SPEAKER'S CHAIR,
HE'D BE A NATURAL FOR
ONE OF THOSE ROLES LIKE
GOVERNMENT HOUSE LEADER
IF EVES ISN'T -

Hugh says THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO
PUT SOMEBODY WHO REALLY
KNOWS THE ROPES AND HAS
GOT SOME EXPERIENCE
IN THE JOB OF BABYSITTER
OF THE CAUCUS.

Floyd says YEAH, I THINK THAT -
I'M A FAN OF NORM, SORRY.
I THINK HE HAS MORE
TALENT THAN IS GENERALLY
RECOGNIZED, QUITE FRANKLY,
AND I REALLY DO AND
I THINK HE'D BE GOOD EITHER
AS AG, ATTORNEY GENERAL.
HE'D BE A GREAT
SPEAKER, AS WELL.
BUT I'M NOT SURE.

Steve says I THOUGHT MARGARET MARLAND
WAS GOING TO BE THE SPEAKER.

Floyd says I DON'T KNOW THAT, BUT JUST
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NORM.
I THINK HE'D BE
GOOD AT IT.

Steve says WE HAVE GOT ONE
MORE CARD TO SHOW.
ONE MORE CARD TO SHOW AND
THIS IS THE GUY THAT
LARRY GROSSMAN CONFIRMED
LAST WEEK ON OUR SHOW
THAT WOULD BE THE NEXT
FINANCE MINISTER OF ONTARIO.

A slide appears with a photo of David Johnson and a title that reads "Riding Don Mills, First Elected 1993 (by election), P.C. Caucus Municipal Affairs Critic (urban)." David is in his forties, has short, side-parted, straight, dark hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and black tie.

Steve says HE HASN'T BEEN
IN VERY LONG.
HE WON THE 1993
BY ELECTION.
HE'S ONLY BEEN AN
MPP FOR TWO YEARS,
BUT LOTS OF EXPERIENCE
IN MUNICIPAL POLITICS
BEFORE THAT.
AND A GUY WHO KNOWS THE
NUMBERS OBVIOUSLY.

Larry says I SAID IT TWO WEEKS AGO
BEFORE THE ELECTION,
BEFORE Mr. HARRIS WAS
IN A POSITION TO START
TO THINK ABOUT
THESE THINGS.
AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT
MIKE IS GOING TO DECIDE TO DO,
BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT
DAVE IS WELL RESPECTED
BY CAUCUS AS A VERY SOLID,
STRAIGHTFORWARD PERSON,
AND THOSE ARE SOME OF THE
SKILLS THAT A TREASURER
NEEDS BECAUSE THE TREASURER
IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE
SOME DIFFICULT DECISIONS.

Steve says A TREASURER IS ALSO
SUPPOSED TO BE - WELL,
A TREASURER HAS ALSO
TRADITIONALLY BEEN SOMEONE
WITH A GREAT DEAL MORE
LEGISLATIVE EXPERIENCE
THAN DAVE JOHNSON HAS.
AND SOMEONE WITH, DARE I
SAY IT IN FLOYD LAUGHREN'S
PRESENCE HERE, SOMEBODY
WITH A LOT MORE CHARISMA
THAN DAVE JOHNSON HAS.
[laughing]

Larry says AND WE'RE TWO
GOOD EXAMPLES.
[laughing]
I DON'T KNOW
WHAT TO SAY NOW.

Mike says SO WHAT DO WE
SAY ABOUT THAT?

John says WELL, I THINK I COULD SAY
A PATRICK GOSSAGE LINE
AND SAY IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE
THIS CLOSE TO THE CHARISMA,
BUT I THINK THAT -
BUT YOU WON'T
SAY THAT.
[laughing]
FROM YOU GUYS, I
WOULDN'T WANT TO.
I THINK THE ISSUE IS
WITH THE KIND OF JOB
THAT THE TREASURER IS
GOING TO HAVE TO DO,
I'M NOT SURE YOU WANT
SOMEBODY WHO IS A DAZZLING,
CHARISMATIC FIGURE WHO
ATTRACTS ATTENTION.
I DON'T THINK THE STRATEGY
HERE IS TO HAVE MIKE HARRIS
HIDE BEHIND A BUNCH OF
PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING
TO TAKE ALL THE
FLACK FOR HIM.
I THINK HARRIS IS AN
EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATOR.
HE UNDERSTANDS THE
POLITICAL CONSTITUENCY
THAT'S ELECTED HIM.
I THINK HE'S BETTER THAN
ANY MEMBER OF THAT CAUCUS
AT REACHING OUT DIRECTLY
TO THAT CONSTITUENCY.
HE'S THE FRONT GUY.
SO IN SOME WAYS, IT DOESN'T
REALLY MATTER IN TERMS
OF OPTICS WHO'S THE
TREASURER, AND JOHNSON -
JOHNSON'S WELL RESPECTED
ON BAY STREET,
AMONG THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
GOT TO KNOW HIM OVER
THE PAST FEW YEARS SINCE
HE'S COME INTO THE JOB.
I THINK HE'D BE PERFECTLY

PERFECTLY GOOD AT THE JOB.

Jane says THE DIFFERENCE, I THINK,
JUST FROM AN OPTICS POINT
OF VIEW BETWEEN THE
TREASURER AND SOME OTHER
MINISTERS IS, IS THIS THE
KIND OF PERSON THAT
YOU WOULD TRUST AS YOUR
BANKER, AS OPPOSED
TO YOUR INVESTMENT
ADVISER, YOU KNOW?
YOU DON'T NEED THAT LEVEL
OF FLASH, I DON'T THINK.
THERE YOU GO.

Steve says WAS HE OUR INVESTMENT
ADVISER FOR THE LAST -
[talking over each other]

Jane says NO, THE BANKER.
THE BANKER.

Steve says DO YOU KNOW YET WHETHER
YOU'RE GOING TO BE FINANCE
CRITIC WHEN THE NEXT
GOVERNMENT IS CONVENED?

Floyd says NO.

Steve says WILL YOU BE YOUR
PARTY'S FINANCE CRITIC?

Floyd says WE HAVEN'T MADE ANY OF
THOSE DECISIONS YET.

Steve says WOULD
YOU WANT TO BE?

Floyd says NOT PARTICULARLY.

Steve says WHY NOT?

Floyd says YOU KNOW THE NUMBERS.
THAT MAY BE PART
OF THE PROBLEM.
[laughing]
NO, SERIOUSLY, I'M NOT SURE
THAT - AND I NOTICED IT
WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CHANGED
THE LAST TIME THAT,
FOR EXAMPLE, Mr. NIXON
WAS NOT MY CRITIC,
AND I THINK WHAT
HAPPENS, QUITE FRANKLY,
IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF
THE DAY JUST THROWS BACK
EVERYTHING AT THE PERSON
WHO WAS THE PREVIOUS
MINISTER, NOT
JUST IN FINANCE,
BUT IN OTHER
PORTFOLIOS AS WELL.
SO GENERALLY SPEAKING, IF
THERE'S SOMEONE ELSE WHO'LL
DO IT, I THINK IT'S BETTER
IF SOMEONE ELSE DOES IT.

Larry says I WANT TO COME BACK TO
SOMETHING I SAID BEFORE.
I THINK PARTICULARLY HERE,
THE TREASURER RARELY
BRINGS FORWARD
LEGISLATION.
IT DOESN'T FACE THE
SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS.

Steve says SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU CAN GO
FOR A LOWER KEY, LESS -

Larry says ABSOLUTELY, YOU
NEED SOMEONE WHO'S TRUSTED,
RESPECTED, AND SOLID.

Jane says FEET
ON THE GROUND.

Larry says LIKE
MY FRIEND HERE.
LIKE MY FRIEND
HERE, EXACTLY.

Steve says WE'VE GOT 20
SECONDS LEFT.
DO YOU WANT TO GIVE SOME
ADVICE TO THESE GUYS,
TAKE YOUR
OPPORTUNITY HERE.

Floyd says ABSOLUTELY NOT.
[laughing]
THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED
IN ADVICE FROM ME.
THEY'LL GET ON WITH
THINGS AS THEY WILL
AND WE'LL OPPOSE
AS WE WILL.

Steve says ANYTHING TO AVOID THE
PITFALLS THAT THEY
WILL ENCOUNTER
ALONG THE WAY?

Floyd says ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I HOPE THEY FIND
LOTS OF THEM.

Steve says OKAY.
LARRY GROSSMAN,
FLOYD LAUGHREN,
THANKS FOR MUCH FOR
BEING HERE TODAY,
WE APPRECIATE IT, AND
GANG, SEE YOU TWO AGAIN.
JOHN DUFFY, THANKS
FOR PINCH HITTING.
OKAY, WE WELCOME YOUR
COMMENTS ON THE PROGRAM
SO PLEASE WRITE TO US AT:

A slide appears on screen with the address that reads "fourth reading, box 200, station Q, Toronto, Ontario M4T 2T1."

Steve continues OR IN CYBERSPACE:

The slide changes to "studio 2 at tvo dot org."

Steve says AND ONE LAST
PROGRAM NOTE.
STUDIO 2'S GOING TO
PRESENT A LIVE SPECIAL
ON MONDAY, 3:00 P.M.
WE'LL COVER THE
INSTALLATION OF THE FIRST
TORY CABINET IN 10 YEARS,
THAT IS SPECIAL LIVE
COVERAGE MONDAY AT 3:00,
THE NEW TORY CABINET.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN, AND
WE'LL SEE YOU THEN.

(music plays)

As the credits roll, paintings of important political figures appear on screen.

Host, Steve Paikin.
Show Producer, Alex Bystram.
Production Manager, Wally Teska.
Director, Allan Myers.

A production of TVOntaro, copyright The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 1995.

Watch: The New Cabinet