Transcript: The Outgoing | Jun 18, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.

In animation, the words "4th reading" swirl against a red slate.

A fast clip shows images of the legislature.

Steve says BATTLE SCARS.
OUTGOING POLITICIANS LOOK
BACK BEFORE THEY LEAVE.
AND TACTICAL ASSESSMENT.

Richard Mahoney is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears a gray suit, purple shirt and printed green tie.

He says I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WITH
US WAS THAT EVEN IN OUR
RESPONSE ADVERTISING, PEOPLE
SAID, HMM, SOUNDS LIKE MORE
OF THE SAME TO ME.

Steve says CAMPAIGN STRATEGISTS
ON ELECTIONS WON AND LOST.

(music plays)

Steve Paikin sits in the studio with 2 guests. He’s in his late thirties, clean-shaven and with short curly brown hair. He wears blue T-shirt under a beige blazer.

Steve says WELCOME TO
4th
READING
EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
LOTS OF CHANGES AT
QUEEN'S PARK THESE DAYS.
DOZENS OF NEW DEMOCRATS AND
LIBERALS ARE MOVING OUT.
DOZENS OF NEW TORY
MPPs ARE MOVING IN.
LATER IN THE PROGRAM WE'LL
GATHER OUR ELECTION WATCH
STRATEGISTS FOR THE LAST
TIME TO GET THEIR FINAL
THOUGHTS ON THE
TORY TAKEOVER.
BUT FIRST WE THOUGHT WE'D
SPEND SOME TIME WITH SOME
MPPs WHO WANTED TO COME BACK
BUT AREN'T COMING BACK.
THESE FOLKS LOST ON ELECTION
DAY AND ARE PERHAPS
WONDERING NOW WHETHER ALL OF
IT OR ANY OF IT WAS WORTH IT.
LET'S FIND OUT.
DIANNE POOLE IS THE OUTGOING
LIBERAL MPP FROM THE RIDING
OF EGLINTON AND THERE
WERE 30,000 VOTES CAST IN
SAINT GEORGE, SAINT DAVID
LIBERAL TIM MURPHY LOST
THE RIDING BY JUST 400.
THERE'S TIM.

Dianne is in her forties, with short slightly wavy reddish brown hair. She wears a white blouse under a bright red blazer and a pair of golden earrings.

Tim is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short thinning straight blond hair. HE wears glasses, a blue suit, striped shirt and printed red tie.

Steve says
THE NDP's GEORGE MAMMOLITI
WAS DEFEATED IN YORKVIEW
AFTER JUST ONE TERM ON
THE GOVERNMENT BENCHES.
HE IS SUPPOSED
TO BE HERE TODAY.
I'M HEARING HE'S
STUCK IN TRAFFIC.
HE'LL GET HERE WHEN HE GETS
HERE, AND HE'LL JOIN THE GANG
WHEN HE GETS HERE.
ANYWAY, THANKS TO THE TWO
OF YOU FOR BEING HERE.
LET'S JUST TALK
ABOUT, FOR STARTERS,
HOW YOU FELT
ELECTION NIGHT.
GIVEN THAT YOU DIDN'T FORM
THE GOVERNMENT, YOU TWO
LIBERALS, WAS IT
BETTER IN FACT TO LOSE?
TIM?

Tim says NO, I MEAN...

Steve says RATHER THAN SIT
IN OPPOSITION AGAIN?

A caption reads "Tim Murphy. Liberal M.P.P."

Tim says WELL, THERE ARE OTHERS WHO
HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS BUT I
THINK IT'S A REALLY GOOD JOB
AND WE HAD, YOU KNOW, IN THE
COUPLE OF YEARS I WAS IN
THERE WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY
TO HELP A LOT OF PEOPLE IN,
YOU KNOW, PRIMARILY SMALL
WAYS, BUT WE ALSO HAD SOME
MAJOR ISSUES IN WHICH I WAS
INVOLVED IN AND I
THINK IT'S A GOOD JOB.
IT'S A WORTHWHILE JOB AND
EVEN IN OPPOSITION I THINK
IT'S WORTH HAVING.

Steve says
NOW YOU WON IN '87.
SAT ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE.
YOU WON YOUR SEAT IN '90
BUT OBVIOUSLY LOST THE
GOVERNMENT IN '90, SO YOU'VE
BEEN ON THE OPPOSITION SIDE.
YOU KNOW WHAT THAT'S ABOUT.
FIVE YEARS ON OPPOSITION.
IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD
HAVE BEEN PREPARED TO COME
BACK AND DO AGAIN WITH
A SMILE ON YOUR FACE?

The caption changes to "Dianne Poole. Liberal M.P.P."

Dianne says I WOULD HAVE BEEN PREPARED
TO DO IT BECAUSE THERE
WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A CHOICE
UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING TO
CONTINUE IN OPPOSITION.
BY THE END OF FIVE YEARS YOU
REALLY DO WANT TO MOVE ON
AND ACCOMPLISH SOME THINGS
AND CONSTANTLY WHEN YOU'RE
IN OPPOSITION YOU'RE
HAMMERING AT THE GOVERNMENT
BUT YOU DON'T GET TO DO A
LOT THAT'S POSITIVE AND
PROACTIVE, AND WHETHER IT
WAS BETTER TO LOSE, I DON'T
THINK IT'S EVER
BETTER TO LOSE.

Steve says YOU STILL WANT TO WIN.

Dianne says STILL WANT TO WIN.

Steve says YOU TALK ABOUT
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND NEITHER
OF THE TWO OF YOU GOT TO BE
A MINISTER OF THE CROWN,
WHICH IS PRESUMABLY ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT EVERYBODY
WANTS TO DO WHEN
THEY GET IN THERE.
MINISTERS WHO HAVE LOST AT
LEAST, YOU KNOW, LOOK BACK
AT A RECORD OF
ACCOMPLISHMENT, SUCH AS IT IS,
IN OFFICE, I'M WONDERING
IF THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF
OPPOSITION BACKBENCHERS
ARE HARDER TO QUANTIFY
AND HARDER TO COME BY.
DO YOU LEAVE OFFICE NOW...
YOU WERE IN A BY-ELECTION.
YOU'VE ONLY BEEN
IN FOR TWO YEARS.

Tim says YUP.

Steve says DO YOU LEAVE HAVING
SAID, YEAH, I SURE KNOW WHAT
I ACCOMPLISHED AND
IT WAS GREAT.

Tim says YES, IN SHORT.
IT'S, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE
THINGS IN THE COMMUNITY, WE
STARTED A UNIQUE PROGRAM IN
FACT WHERE WE WERE GETTING
COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO GO TO
COURT TO TESTIFY ABOUT THE
EFFECTS OF CRIME IN THE
COMMUNITY AND WE REALLY GOT
A SENSE OF COMMUNITY
INVOLVEMENT.
WE REALLY STARTED WORKING
WITH REGENT PARK, FOR EXAMPLE.

Steve says WE SHOULD TELL PEOPLE
WHO ARE WATCHING THIS
OUTSIDE TORONTO.
YOU REPRESENT ONE OF THE
MOST DIVERSE NEIGHBOURHOODS...
COMMUNITIES, RATHER,
IN THE PROVINCE.

Tim says USED
TO REPRESENT.

Steve says USED TO REPRESENT.
VERY, VERY RICH AND
VERY, VERY POOR.

Tim says YUP.
AND YOU KNOW, SO -- AND WE
WORKED WITH REGENT PARK,
WHICH IS ONE OF THOSE
POOR NEIGHBOURHOODS.
REALLY, YOU KNOW, REALLY GOT A
SENSE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
WE WERE WORKING WITH THE MTHA
REFORM -- HOUSING AUTHORITY.
AND I THOUGHT WE HAD
SOME THINGS GOING THERE.
WE HAD 5,000 PEOPLE IN
THE COMMUNITY OFFICE.
WE GOT A, YOU KNOW, A
COMMUNITY BAKERY GOING
IN REGENT PARK.
WE HELPED ESTABLISH A
PROGRAM FOR PEOPLE ON
WELFARE TO GET SOME
COMPUTER TRAINING.

Steve says WOULD ALL OF THIS
HAVE HAPPENED IF TIM MURPHY
HADN'T BECOME THE MPP FOR
SAINT GEORGE SAINT DAVID?

Tim says WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
THE COMMUNITY WITNESS
PROGRAM, I THINK, THAT
DEFINITELY WOULDN'T
HAVE HAPPENED.
AND IN SOME OF THE OTHER
CASES, MAYBE NOT EITHER.
I MEAN IT'S BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, WE USE THE OFFICE AS A
COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, MEETING
PLACE, A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE
CAN COME AND USE IT
AND HAVE ACCESS TO IT
AND EVEN LITTLE THINGS.
LIKE WE LET LIKE 600 PEOPLE
USE THE FAX MACHINE IN THE
OFFICE FOR JOBS APPLICATIONS
FREE OF CHARGE, AND SOME
PEOPLE GOT JOBS.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- YOU
DON'T ALWAYS MEASURE YOUR
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS HERE'S
THE BILL -- ALTHOUGH
I DID DO THAT.
I INTRODUCED THE FIRST DRAFT
OF AN AMMUNITION CONTROL ACT
AND ALSO A VERSION OF THE
SAME SEX BENEFITS BILL,
WHICH DID PASS TWO
READINGS, IF NOT THREE.
SO THERE -- YOU KNOW, I WAS
INVOLVED IN SOME OF THE MOST
CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES OF THE
DAY AT THE CORE AND DID SOME
THINGS IN THE RIDING THAT I
THINK MADE THE DIFFERENCE.

Steve says MORE ON SAME SEX
BENEFITS IN A SECOND.
BUT LET ME GO UP TO EGLINTON
RIDING, WHICH IS YOURS,
WHICH IS A LOT LESS DIVERSE
THAN TIM'S OLD RIDING WAS.
YOURS IS VERY MUCH UPSCALE
AND MUCH MORE UPSCALE THAN HIS.
ARE THERE ACCOMPLISHMENTS
THAT YOU CAN POINT TO IN
YOUR TERM SINCE 1987 AND
SAY, YEAH, THIS HAPPENED AND
IT HAPPENED BECAUSE I WAS
THERE, AND EVEN THOUGH
I NEVER GOT TO SIT IN
CABINET, I'M PROUD OF THIS?

Dianne says YES, I DO BELIEVE THAT AN
INDIVIDUAL MEMBER CAN MAKE
A DIFFERENCE, AND I'LL POINT
OUT THE MARKET VALUE
ASSESSMENT DEBATE THAT RAGED
FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS DOWN
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
BECAUSE I TOOK A KEY ROLE IN
THAT DEBATE, WE FORCED THE
NDP TO WITHDRAW THE
LEGISLATION AND MARKET VALUE
ASSESSMENT DID NOT
COME IN IN METRO.
THAT WAS A GREAT PROTECTIVE
MEASURE FOR MY PARTICULAR
CONSTITUENTS AND A LARGE
MEASURE OF TIM'S AS WELL.
IT WAS CERTAINLY OPPOSED
BY THE CITY OF TORONTO
IN LARGE MEASURE.
SO I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT IF I HADN'T BEEN THERE
MIGHT WELL HAVE GONE
THROUGH, BUT IT WAS JUST
SHEER DETERMINATION NOT TO
GIVE UP AND KNOWING THAT
I HAD TO PROTECT
MY CONSTITUENTS.
SO IT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE,
BUT CERTAINLY THERE ARE
THINGS THAT WE CAN POINT
THAT WERE ACCOMPLISHMENTS
AND THAT WE CAN SAY HAPPENED
BECAUSE WE'RE THERE.

Steve says YOU WERE ALSO CO-CHAIR, I
THINK, IF MEMORY SERVES, OF
A LIBERAL PARTY, YOU KNOW,
TELL ME THE CORRECT TERM.
IT'S NOT A TASK FORCE BUT
IT'S A SOMETHING OR OTHER,
THAT WAS DESIGNED TO GET A
LOT MORE WOMEN INTO POLITICS.

Dianne says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says AND AS YOU LOOK AT THE NEXT
HOUSE THAT COMES IN, I THINK
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG
TIME, THERE ARE GOING TO BE
A LOT FEWER WOMEN AND
PROBABLY A LOT FEWER WOMEN
IN THE NEXT CABINET THAN IN
THE PRECEDING TWO OR THREE
CABINETS OR TWO
OR THREE HOUSES.
IF YOUR GOAL WAS TO GET MORE
WOMEN IN AND FEWER WOMEN ARE
GOING TO BE IN, IS THAT
A BIG DEFEAT FOR YOU?

Dianne says IT'S CERTAINLY BEEN A
GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT.
WE HAD MORE WOMEN RUN FOR
THE LIBERAL NOMINATIONS,
MORE WOMEN WHO WON LIBERAL
NOMINATIONS AND MORE LIBERAL
CANDIDATES WHO WERE FEMALE THAN
EVER BEFORE IN OUR HISTORY.
AND IT LOOKED SO PROMISING
BECAUSE WE HAD A LOT OF
SO-CALLED STARS, WOMEN WHO
WERE LEADERS IN BUSINESS OR
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS, LEADERS
IN THEIR COMMUNITY.
AND IT LOOKED LIKE WE WERE
GOING TO ELECT A HUGE NUMBER
OF WOMEN MEMBERS.

Steve says THERE IS ONE...
YOU WERE TELLING ME,
THERE IS ONE LIBERAL
FEMALE MPP EAST OF
YONGE STREET IN THE
WHOLE PROVINCE.
IT'S AMAZING
ACTUALLY, ISN'T IT?

Dianne says THAT'S RIGHT.
WE STARTED OUT WITH SIX
LIBERAL WOMEN INCUMBENTS,
WHICH WAS DOWN TEN FROM 1987
WHEN WE ELECTED 16, AND NOW
WE'RE DOWN TO FOUR, AND IN
FACT WE LOST FOUR FEMALE
INCUMBENTS IN THAT SWING.
IT SEEMED TO ME TO BE A
REJECTION OF SOME OF THE
FEMALE VIRTUES, OR WHAT I
THINK MANY OF US CONSIDER
TO BE THE FEMALE VIRTUES...
COMPASSION, PERHAPS MORE
CONCERNED ABOUT
SOCIAL ISSUES.
AND I DON'T THINK THE ELECTORATE
WAS ON THAT WAVELENGTH.
I THINK THEY WANTED
PEOPLE WHO WERE TOUGH.
THEY WANTED PEOPLE WHO COULD
GET IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
FRAY AND I THINK THERE WAS
A BIT OF A GENDER BACKLASH
THERE, AS WELL AS THE
CONSERVATIVE SWEEP THAT WENT
ACROSS THE LAND.

Steve says OKAY.
WE'RE GETTING INTO SOME OF
THE REASONS WHY YOU FOLKS
ARE NO LONGER GOING TO BE
REPRESENTING YOUR AREA,
SO LET'S PICK UP ON THIS.
DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU LOST?
YOU KNOW, AS I SAID
BEFORE, 30,000 VOTES CAST.
YOU LOST BY 400.
IT WAS TIGHT.
BUT DO YOU THINK YOU
KNOW WHY YOU LOST?
YOU PERSONALLY,
NOT YOUR PARTY.

Tim says NO, NO, NO, I
UNDERSTAND.
WELL, I GUESS THERE'S
A COUPLE OF REASONS.
I MEAN CERTAINLY IT WAS MY
VIEW THAT, YOU KNOW, THE
CONSERVATIVE VOTE WAS PRETTY
STRONG IN THOSE PARTS OF THE
RIDING THAT WERE
MORE WELL OFF.
I THINK THE, YOU KNOW, THE
GAY AND LESBIAN COMMUNITY
VOTED PRETTY -- IN
SIGNIFICANTLY NEW NUMBERS
FOR THE NDP CANDIDATE
AND THE OTHER THING...

Steve says YOU HAVE THE
LARGEST GAY POPULATION
OUT OF ANY RIDING IN
THE PROVINCE I THINK?

Tim says I THINK THAT'S
PROBABLY RIGHT.
AND I THINK THE OTHER THING
THAT WAS INTERESTING IN THE
ELECTION, I THINK IN THE
LAST WEEK THE NDP CAME BACK
A LITTLE BIT.
AND IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK
AT THE MAP OF THE CITY OF
TORONTO, SOUTH OF BLOOR
THE NDP DID VERY WELL.
IN FACT, THAT'S WHERE
THEY HELD SEATS.
YOU KNOW, IN BEACHES AND
RIVERDALE AND THE SOUTH END
OF MY RIDING, ON BOTH SIDES,
ARE NDP HELD SEATS STILL.
AND SO THE NDP SUPPORT SOUTH
OF BLOOR WAS VERY STRONG IN
MY HALF OF THE RIDING.
YOU ADD IN THE GAY AND
LESBIAN VOTE AND THAT
BASICALLY ALL COMES FROM ME.
AND SO THAT'S WHAT MADE IT
AS CLOSE, BUT WE HELD THE
CONSERVATIVES TO, YOU KNOW,
ABOUT 12 POINTS BELOW WHAT
THE PARTY AVERAGE WAS
ACROSS THE PROVINCE
FOR THE CONSERVATIVES.
BUT YOU KNOW, THE VOTERS
THOUGHT OTHERWISE.
SO THAT'S -- WE ACCEPTED
THAT VERDICT AND MOVE ON.

Steve says WAS THERE ANYTHING PERSONAL
ABOUT YOUR DEFEAT?

Dianne says BY PERSONAL, I ASSUME
YOU MEAN WAS THERE
AN ISSUE LIKE THE GAY
LESBIAN ISSUE WHICH...

Steve says DO YOU THINK PEOPLE
WERE VOTING AGAINST YOU
OR WAS THIS WE DON'T
LIKE THE LIBERAL PARTY?
WE DON'T LIKE
YOUR LEADER.
WE DON'T LIKE
YOUR COMMERCIALS.
WE DON'T LIKE
YOUR RED BOOK.
IT'S NOT DIANNE POOLE.
IT'S SOMETHING ELSE.

Dianne says NO, I CONSISTENTLY GOT AT
THE DOOR THAT, DIANNE,
WE THINK YOU'VE BEEN A
TERRIFIC MEMBER,
BUT.

Steve says AND WHAT WAS THE BUT?
WHAT CAME AFTER THE BUT?

Dianne says I THINK THAT THE BIGGEST BUT
WAS THAT PEOPLE SAID THEY'RE
TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMEBODY
ELSE TO GET AHEAD,
AND I REALLY FOUND THIS
A LOT AT THE DOOR.
THEY EXPRESSED IT IN
DIFFERENT WAYS, BUT WHEN
HARRIS PUSHED SOME OF THOSE
HOT BUTTONS ON WELFARE AND
BOOT CAMPS AND TAX CUTS,
THIS HAD GREAT APPEAL TO
THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND
MINE IS PREDOMINANTLY
A MIDDLE CLASS RIDING.
IF I HAD ONE FACTOR THAT I
THINK LED TO MY DEFEAT,
I THINK IT WAS THAT ATTITUDE
THAT THEY WANTED TO CHANGE
BECAUSE THEY WANTED
SOMEBODY REALLY TOUGH.
THEY WANTED A GOVERNMENT
THAT WAS REALLY TOUGH AND
PERHAPS A LITTLE MEAN AT THE
SAME TIME BECAUSE THEY'RE
TIRED OF PAYING FOR OTHER
PEOPLE TO GET AHEAD.

Steve says LET'S TALK FOR A COUPLE OF
MINUTES ABOUT BOTH OF YOUR
RESPECTIVE FUTURES.
NOW I SUSPECT BEFORE JUNE
8th BOTH OF YOU HOPED TO
HAVE A FUTURE IN POLITICS.
YOU EXPECTED, I ASSUME,
TO HAVE A LONG CAREER
IN POLITICS.
YOUR CAREER'S BEEN TWO YEARS
LONG AND NOW IT'S OVER.
OR IS IT OVER?
DO YOU SEE IT AS MAYBE
JUST SORT OF SUSPENDED?

Tim says WELL, POLITICS, FIRST OF
ALL, IS NEVER A CAREER.
I MEAN POLITICS
HAS TO BE A HOBBY.
I MEAN YOU RUN FOR OFFICE,
BUT IT'S NEVER SECURE.
I MEAN PEOPLE, YOU
KNOW, YOU LOSE.
IN FACT, WHEN
YOU LOOK AT...

Steve says HOW OLD WERE YOU
WHEN YOU WORKED ON
YOUR FIRST
ELECTION CAMPAIGN?

Tim says ER... 25, I GUESS.

Steve says SO YOU'VE BEEN AT
THIS MORE THAN TEN YEARS.

Tim says YUP.

Steve says AND YOU EXPECTED TO BE AT
IT FOR ANOTHER TEN YEARS.

Tim says WELL, BUT I, YOU KNOW, I
MEAN THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS
YOU GET INVOLVED
IN POLITICS.
I RAN FOR OFFICE BECAUSE
I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN
IMPORTANT WAY
TO GET INVOLVED.
I DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT
WHETHER I'LL RUN NEXT TIME
OR NOT.
BUT YOU KNOW, YOU DO IT
NOT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE
INVOLVED IN POLITICS.
YOU DO IT FOR SOMETHING,
TO DO SOMETHING.
AND THOSE, YOU KNOW, AND I
GOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO
THAT FOR A WHILE
AS A MEMBER.
MAYBE I WILL AGAIN, BUT I'M
GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON
THOSE ISSUES OF -- YOU KNOW,
I MEAN THE -- YOU KNOW, YOU
CAN'T HELP BUT WORK IN A
RIDING LIKE SAINT GEORGE
SAINT DAVID AND FIND YOURSELF
DRAWN TO TRYING TO FIX THE
LIVES AND HELP FIX THE LIVES
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LESS...

Steve says YOU'VE GOT TO GO
MAKE A LIVING NOW.

Tim says YES.

Steve says YOU'RE GOING TO GO
BACK TO PRACTICE LAW NOW?
IS THAT WHAT HAPPENS?

Tim says WELL, I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO
TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT FREE
SUN CLASSIFIED
AD OPPORTUNITY.

Steve says WHICH IS WHAT?

Tim says WELL, THEY WERE ADVERTISING
JUST DURING THE ELECTION.
YOU CAN PUT A
FREE AD IN THERE.
HELP, YOU KNOW,
ELECT...

They laugh.

Steve says OH, I SEE.

Tim says SO I MAY TAKE
ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

Steve says HELP FIND TIM A JOB.

Tim says OF COURSE, AND THE HUNDREDS
OF THOUSANDS WATCHING RIGHT
HERE OF COURSE.
THEY SHOULD HAVE A 1-900
NUMBER -- 1-800 NUMBER.

Steve says 1-800-CALL-TIM.
WE'LL PUT YOUR RESUME ON
THE SCREEN AFTERWARDS.
AND WHAT ABOUT YOU?
WHAT ARE YOU
GOING TO DO NOW?
DO YOU KNOW?

Dianne says I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF
OPPORTUNITIES OUT THERE.
I THINK FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN TEN YEARS I'M GOING TO
TAKE A BREAK.
I'M GOING TO TAKE MAYBE
SIX, EIGHT WEEKS OFF
AND SPEND TIME WITH MY FAMILY,
SMELL THE ROSES, FIND OUT WHAT
IT'S LIKE WITH REAL PEOPLE,
BEING HOME AT NIGHT, BEING
ABLE TO GO OUT TO DINNER AND
DO THE THINGS REAL PEOPLE DO.
NO WEEKEND WORK.
AND I'M REALLY LOOKING
FORWARD TO IT.

Steve says AND THIS GUY DOESN'T
EVEN GET A PENSION.
YOU WERE ONLY IN FOR
TWO YEARS, RIGHT?

Dianne says I DON'T GET ONE
EITHER AT THE MOMENT
BECAUSE I'M TOO YOUNG.
POLITICS IS ONE OF THE FEW
OCCUPATIONS WHERE YOU'RE 45
YEARS OLD AND THEY
SAY IT'S TOO YOUNG.

Steve says JERRY TELLS ME WE GOT
LESS THAN A MINUTE LEFT.
WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE
FOR YOUR SUCCESSORS?
GIVE AL LEACH, WHO'S NOW
REPRESENTING YOUR RIDING,
AND BILL SAUNDERSON WHO'S
NOW REPRESENTING YOURS,
20 SECONDS EACH.
WHAT ADVICE WOULD
YOU GIVE THEM?

Tim says WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I
THINK THEY PROBABLY HAVE A
PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF
WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.
I THINK THE FIRST AND MOST
IMPORTANT THING THAT THE
GOVERNMENT, AND SINCE
THEY'RE GOVERNMENT MEMBERS
HAVE, IS DO WHAT YOU
SAY YOU'RE GOING TO DO.
YOU KNOW, BE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE TO YOUR PROMISES.
AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
THAT WILL BE LIBERAL JOB IN
OPPOSITION, AND I THINK IT'S
GOING TO BE THEIR JOB IN
GOVERNMENT TO DO IT AND GET
RID OF THE CYNICISM OUT THERE.

Steve says AND ADVICE
FOR MISTER SAUNDERSON?

Dianne says NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT
THAT WORKING HARD FOR YOUR
CONSTITUENTS DIDN'T PAY OFF
FOR A LOT OF THE LIBERALS
INCUMBENTS THIS TIME
ROUND, I WOULD SAY TO
MISTER SAUNDERSON
PROTECT OUR COMMUNITY.
STAND UP, EVEN AGAINST YOUR
OWN GOVERNMENT IF IT'S
NECESSARY, AND MAKE SURE
YOU'RE THERE TO REPRESENT
NORTH TORONTO WELL.

Steve says OKAY.
STICK AROUND AND WATCH
THIS FOR A SECOND.
THIS MIGHT GIVE YOU SOME
ANSWERS AS TO WHY IT ALL
WENT SOUR.
BY NOW, ALL THREE PARTIES
HAVE HAD THEIR CHANCE TO
ASSESS THEIR CAMPAIGNS, WHAT
WENT RIGHT, WHAT WENT WRONG.
THREE TOP STRATEGISTS HAVE
BEEN HELPING US UNDERSTAND
THE CAMPAIGN FOR
THE PAST FEW MONTHS.
AND FOR ONE LAST TIME, WE
GATHERED TOGETHER AT THE
MONTREAL BISTRO IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO FOR SOME FINAL THOUGHTS.

A clip rolls. Steve and 3 more guests sit at a bristro table.

Frances Lankin is in her early forties, with shoulder-length slightly wavy brown hair with bangs. She wears a black blazer and pendant earrings.

Paul Rhodes is in his fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears glasses, a gray suit, gray shirt and printed tie.

Steve says WELL, THANKS FOR GATHERING
ONE LAST TIME AS WE...
I THINK I'M NOT GOING TO
HAVE TOO MUCH TO SAY TO YOU
THIS WEEK.

Paul says THAT'S FINE.

Steve says JUST BECAUSE YOU SHAVED AND
I NOW KNOW WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE.

Richard says LOOKS GOOD.

Steve says IT DOES.

Paul says PART OF THE CAMPAIGN.
PART OF THE CAMPAIGN THEME.

Frances says WELL, LET US
SAY CONGRATULATIONS.

Paul says THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Steve says CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU.
CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU
ON WINNING YOUR SEAT.

Frances says THANK YOU.

Steve says AND NOW WE START
WITH YOU, RICK.
AND I ALMOST -- LET'S TAKE A
LOOK AT WHERE THE LIBERAL
CAMPAIGN RAN INTO DIFFICULTY
AND LET ME SUGGEST THIS
AND YOU TELL ME IF YOUR
COLLEAGUES HAVE SUGGESTED
THIS IN YOUR
POST-GAME ANALYSIS.
THE MISTAKES WERE NOT MADE
SO MUCH DURING THE CAMPAIGN
BUT, IN FACT, THE YEAR
PRECEDING THE CAMPAIGN BY
WAITING 'TIL THE CAMPAIGN TO
BRING THE RED BOOK OUT AND
SHOW WHERE YOU STOOD, AS
OPPOSED TO THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION WHICH CAME
OUT A YEAR AHEAD OF TIME.
THAT WAS A
STRATEGIC MISTAKE.
YES, NO, WHAT
DO YOU THINK?

A caption reads "Richard Mahoney. Liberal Campaign Co-Chair."

Richard says THAT'S POSSIBLE.
I THINK IT GOES ACTUALLY
EVEN BEYOND THAT.
I THINK THAT WHAT HAPPENED
WAS THAT THE LIBERAL
PLATFORM, WHICH ACTUALLY
HAD IN IT SOME, YOU KNOW,
SPOKE TO CHANGE.
SPOKE TO CHANGE IN THE
FISCAL SIDE AND SO FORTH.
THAT WHAT WE DID IN THE
CAMPAIGN, WHETHER -- I'M NOT
SURE THAT THE DATE OF
RELEASE WAS THAT IMPORTANT
BUT WE FAILED TO DEFINE THAT
PLATFORM, THAT RED BOOK IN
THE CONTEXT OF CHANGE.
WHAT VOTES SAID ON JUNE 8th
WAS THAT THEY WANTED CHANGE.
AT LEAST A SIZABLE
PROPORTION OF VOTERS
WANTED CHANGE.
AND SOMEHOW, SOME TIME
DURING THE ELECTION
CAMPAIGN, WE BECAME THE
INCUMBENTS HOGGING THE LEAD,
DEFENDING ALMOST AS IF
WE WERE THE GOVERNMENT.
AND WE FAILED VERY MUCH TO
DEFINE OUR AGENDA IN THE
CONTEXT OF CHANGE.
I WOULD SUBMIT THAT THERE
ARE THINGS IN THE LIBERAL
PLATFORM WHICH SPEAK TO
CHANGE, BUT SOMEHOW WE FAILED
TO DEFINE THAT CHANGE
IN THAT MESSAGE.

Steve says IN ANY OF YOUR POST-GAME
ANALYSIS, THOUGH, THAT
YOU'VE DONE, HAS ANYBODY
SUGGESTED WE SHOULD HAVE
BROUGHT OUR PLAN OUT A YEAR
AHEAD OF TIME LIKE THE
CONSERVATIVES DID, JUST SO
PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO SAY YOU'VE
BROUGHT OUT SOMETHING
FOR THE ELECTION.
YOU KNOW, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A
RECORD ON WHICH TO RUN AND
THAT'S A WEAKNESS.

Richard says HAVEN'T HEARD THAT YET BUT
I SUSPECT SOMEBODY WILL DO
THAT AND I THINK WE SHOULD
HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT THAT
BECAUSE THERE ARE VERY FEW
GOOD THINGS ABOUT LOSING AN
ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND AS I
SAY, I CONGRATULATE PAUL AND
FRANCES ON HER OWN
PERSONAL RE-ELECTION.
I THINK WE SHOULD OFFER
TO PICK UP THE NEXT
ROUND ANYWAYS.

Frances laughs.

Richard says BUT ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS
IS THAT IT DOES START THE
DEBATE ON WHAT LESSONS ARE
LEARNED FOR ALL POLITICAL
PARTIES, PARTICULARLY
THE LIBERAL PARTY.
AND THAT WILL BE ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT WE NEED
TO DEBATE ABOUT.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOW
DOES A CENTRIST PARTY DEFINE
CHANGE IN A TIME WHEN VOTERS
ARE LOOKING FOR RADICAL CHANGE?
AND VOTERS LOOKED FOR
RADICAL CHANGE ON JUNE 8th,
AND THEY VOTED FOR IT.

Steve says IS THERE A LESSON FOR THE
LEFT IN THIS INASMUCH AS THE
LEFT IS GREAT WHEN
IT'S IN OPPOSITION.
THE LEFT IS GREAT WHEN IT IS
A SERIES OF ALLIANCES AMONG
SORT OF DISENFRANCHISED
GROUPS THAT DON'T HAVE POWER.
BUT THAT THE
LEFT CAN'T BE IN.
IT CAN'T BE IN POWER AND
SOMEHOW MAKE IT ALL
COME TOGETHER.

The caption changes to "Frances Lankin. N.D.P Campaign Spokesperson."

Frances says WELL, THERE'S A CHALLENGE
FOR US CERTAINLY TO
ASSIMILATE THE EXPERIENCE OF
BEING IN GOVERNMENT AND TO
BUILD ON THAT.
I THINK THERE ARE TWO
POTENTIAL PATHS THAT THE
PARTY COULD GO NOW.
ONE IS TO RETRENCH TO THE
PARTY OF OPPOSITION AND
THERE MIGHT BE SOME WHO
WOULD SEEK COMFORT IN THAT
AND FIND THAT A
COMFORTABLE ROLE.
I MEAN THERE'S LOTS OF TIMES
IN THE PAST WHEN THERE'S
BEEN A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER
OR NOT -- IN THE PARTY...
WE EVER WANTED TO
BE GOVERNMENT.
THERE ARE SOME WHO DON'T, WHO
LIKE THE ROLE OF OPPOSITION.
THE OTHER PATH
IS TO SAY, OKAY.
WE ARE NOW A PARTY
OF GOVERNMENT.
WE HAVE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE
WE WANT TO BUILD ON THAT AND
TAKE THE NEXT STEP IN
TERMS OF HOW WE BEHAVE IN
OPPOSITION IN TERMS OF
BUILDING FOR THE FUTURE.

Steve says WHERE ARE
YOU ON THIS?
WHAT'S YOUR
PHILOSOPHY?

Frances says THE LATTER.

Steve says THE LATTER.

Frances says I REALLY BELIEVE IT IS
IMPORTANT FOR THE LEFT AND
FOR THE SOCIAL POLICIES AND
EQUITY POLICIES AND ECONOMIC
POLICIES OF THE LEFT TO BE
SUPPORTED AND DEFINED IN A
WAY THAT BENEFITS ALL THE
PEOPLE OF ONTARIO AND THAT
ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF
ONTARIO CAN FIND A HOME
IN THOSE POLICIES.
I THINK THAT MEANS A
DIFFERENT KIND OF COALITION
BUILDING, AND I THINK IT
MEANS THOSE GROUPS, AS WE
ALL COME TOGETHER IN THAT
SORT OF SOCIAL MOVEMENT,
LEARNING HOW TO DEFINE
PRIORITIES AT A TIME AND
TAKING STEPS THAT
ARE SUSTAINABLE.
SO THAT'S A BIG CHALLENGE AND
IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING.

Steve says HAVE YOU GOT A JOB
WITH THE NEW GOVERNMENT?
ARE YOU GOING TO
WORK FOR THEM?

Paul says I DON'T KNOW YET.

Steve says WOULD YOU LIKE TO?

The caption changes to "Paul Rhodes. P.C Media Advisor."

Paul says I THINK A LOT OF US SPENT A
LOT OF TIME WORKING IN THIS
ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND IF
THE NEW PREMIER WANTS MY
SERVICES TO CONTINUE,
I WOULD OFFER THEM UP.
I MEAN THAT'S A
DECISION NOT FOR ME.
IT'S FOR MIKE HARRIS.

Steve says LET'S LOOK BACK
FOR A SECOND AGAIN.
AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE
CAMPAIGN YOU GUYS BROUGHT
OUT SOME ADS THAT WERE
THOUGHT TO BE VERY SORT OF
CLASSIC FRONTRUNNER
ADS, A LOT OF DISSOLVES
OF THE RED BOOK.
THEY LOOKED NICE.
DIDN'T SAY A HELL OF A
LOT, BUT THEY LOOKED NICE.
WHAT'D YOU THINK
OF THOSE ADS, RICK?

Richard says WELL, AGAIN, I THINK THAT
OBVIOUSLY THEY CERTAINLY...
WE TESTED THEM, ALL THE
THINGS THAT CAMPAIGNS
NORMALLY DO.
THEY WERE BEAUTIFULLY
SHOT, AS PAUL AND I
ONCE DISCUSSED.
I THINK THAT ESSENTIALLY
WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT IN
THE CONTEXT OF -- THIS WAS
LIKE ALMOST TWO CAMPAIGNS.
THE FIRST TWO OR THREE WEEKS
THE ELECTORATE WAS KIND
OF SLEEPING AND SORT OF
NOT REALLY PAYING THAT
MUCH ATTENTION.
THE LIBERALS WERE
FRONTRUNNERS.
THE DEBATE HAPPENED AND
SOMETHING HAPPENED AFTER THAT.
IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT
POST-DEBATE AFTERMATH, WHERE
VOTERS WOKE UP AND SAID
WE'RE REALLY NOT HAPPY WITH
THE WAY THINGS ARE ANY MORE.
THOSE ADS SEEMED PALE
AND DIDN'T DELIVER THE
HARD-HITTING MESSAGE THAT
FRANKLY THE TORY ADS DID.
AND IN THAT CONTEXT, I THINK
THOSE ADS DIDN'T WORK,
AND THAT'S WHY
WE HAD TO CHANGE.
CHANGE OUR ADVERTISING
POST-DEBATE.
I MUST SAY WE ALWAYS
CONTEMPLATED THAT THAT KIND
OF THING MIGHT HAPPEN, THAT
WE'D BE INTO A NECK-AND-NECK
FIGHT, BUT IN THAT CONTEXT,
THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY
RESONATING IMPACT
WITH VOTERS.

Frances says ONE OF THE THINGS
I'M INTERESTED IN WHEN YOU
CHANGED YOU ADS IS WHY YOU
WENT EXACTLY TO THE NDP
MESSAGE, ALMOST
WORD FOR WORD.
WAS IT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TIME
TO TEST A NEW MESSAGE AND
YOU... OURS WAS TESTED,
THERE WAS A RESONANCE?

Steve says WELL, WE SHOULD
TELL PEOPLE.
I MEAN THE LINE OUT OF
MISSUS MCLEOD WAS IT DOESN'T
ADD UP, WHICH WAS EXACTLY
WHAT THE PREMIER SAID.
AND ONLY WE CAN PROTECT YOUR
HEALTH CARE, WHICH IS AGAIN
EXACTLY WHAT
PREMIER RAE SAID.

Richard says WELL, TWO THINGS.
WE SAID IT DOESN'T ADD
UP FROM THE BEGINNING.
WHETHER OR NOT IT MAKES ANY
SENSE OR WHETHER OR NOT...
VOTERS OBVIOUSLY WEREN'T
IMPRESSED WITH THE ARGUMENT
ENOUGH, BUT THE ONE THING WE
DID SAY ABOUT THE 30 PERCENT
TAX CUT WAS THAT
IT DIDN'T ADD UP.

Paul says 30 PERCENT CUT
IN INCOME TAX.

Richard says SORRY, INCOME TAX.
OKAY, BUT WE DID
SAY THAT, RIGHT?
I'M NOT -- I MEAN, AGAIN,
I DON'T WANT TO GET IN A
POSITION WHERE WE
FIGHT THE CAMPAIGN.
I THINK THE TORIES WON THE
CAMPAIGN AND I CONGRATULATE
THEM FOR THAT.
BUT WE WERE AT LEAST
CONSISTENT IN THAT.
I THINK THAT WHAT HAPPENED
WAS -- I MEAN AGAIN, IT GOES
BACK TO OUR PROBLEM.
FRANCES' PARTY FACES
THE SAME CHALLENGE.
NOW WHERE DOES A CENTRIST
PARTY WHO, BY DEFINITION,
PROPOSES SOLUTIONS OF THE
RADICAL MIDDLE, HOW DOES IT
SPEAK TO CHANGE IN A WAY
THAT IMPRESSES VOTERS?
I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WITH
US WAS THAT EVEN IN OUR
RESPONSE ADVERTISING PEOPLE
SAID, HMM, SOUNDS LIKE MORE
OF THE SAME TO ME.

Steve says ARE YOU TWO -- FORGIVE
ME FOR IGNORING YOU AGAIN.
IT'S QUITE ALL

Paul says RIGHT, STEVE.

Steve says YOU WON.
THERE'S NOT TOO
MUCH TO ASK YOU.

Richard says EXCEPT FOR THAT JOB QUESTION
WAS A GOOD QUESTION.

Steve says AND YOU KNOW WHAT?
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU
CAN BE HONEST ABOUT THIS,
BUT IF YOU CAN BE,
I'D APPRECIATE IT.
HOW MUCH BEHIND THE SCENES...
I WON'T CALL IT KNIFING, BUT
I MEAN PEOPLE LOOK FOR,
YOU KNOW, SCAPEGOATS.
PEOPLE TO BLAME WHEN
CAMPAIGNS GO WRONG,
AND YOU LOST 59 SEATS.
THAT'S A LOT OF
SEATS TO LOSE.

He points at Frances.

Steve says YOU LOST A
25-POINT LEAD.

He points at Richard.

Richard says RIGHT.

Steve says FOR THE SECOND
ELECTION IN A ROW.
THE KNIVES ARE
GOING TO BE OUT.
HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE
NOT RETURNING YOUR
PHONE CALLS ANYMORE?
HOW MANY PEOPLE DON'T
LIKE YOU ANYMORE?
WHO ELSE IS
GETTING BLAMED?

Richard says IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
I'M A DIFFICULT
PERSON TO ASK THAT.
I THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE A PUBLIC POST-MORTEM
WITH OUR CAMPAIGN
LEADERSHIP.
MY FELLOW CO-CHAIRS, OUR
CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR, BOB
RICHARDSON, AND OUR CAMPAIGN
DIRECTOR, JOHN RONSON,
ALL OUR TEAM.
WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH
PIECE BY PIECE WHAT WENT
RIGHT, WHAT WENT WRONG, WHAT
OUR RECOMMENDATIONS ARE
FOR NEXT TIME.
LOOK, THERE'S A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, IN
MY VIEW SHOULD HAVE BEEN
ELECTED WHO DIDN'T GET
ELECTED THIS TIME, A LOT OF
LIBERALS WHO I WOULD LIKE
TO HAVE SEEN ELECTED.
THEY'RE GOING TO BE ANGRY.
BUT I REALLY DO THINK THAT
ALTHOUGH I WOULD HAVE DONE
SOME THINGS DIFFERENTLY
IN THIS CAMPAIGN, BOTH IN
HINDSIGHT AND DURING THE
CAMPAIGN, I HAVE A VIEW THAT
VOTERS WERE WAY AHEAD OF
US ON THIS AND ESSENTIALLY
LOOKED TO THE PARTY THAT
WOULD BEST OFFER THE MOST
CHANGE FROM THE CURRENT
SITUATION, AND IN THAT SENSE
I THINK THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES HAD A MESSAGE
WHICH WAS BOUND TO
SELL BETTER THAN OURS.

Paul says LET'S JUST MAKE A POINT
HERE, IS THAT EVERYBODY AT
THIS TABLE IN THE LAST
TEN YEARS HAS BEEN ON THE
RECEIVING END OF A NEGATIVE
DECISION OF THE PUBLIC.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT'S
LIKE TO BE IN EVERYONE'S
RESPECTIVE POSITIONS.
AND THE ONE THING YOU
CAN DO IN THE SITUATION
WHERE YOU DON'T WIN
IS YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU
CALL THE BACK-BITING
AND THE WHAT HAVE YOU.
OR WHAT YOU CAN DO IS YOU
CAN TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT
HAPPENED AND LEARN
FROM YOUR MISTAKES.
I CAN TELL YOU QUITE
SERIOUSLY IN 1990, WHEN
MIKE WAS A NEW LEADER.
HE WAS JUST IN.
AND OUR CAMPAIGN WAS TOUGH,
AND IT WAS UNORGANIZED.
AND THE MESSAGE THAT WE GOT
FROM MIKE HARRIS WAS THAT
WE'LL NEVER MAKE THIS
MISTAKE AGAIN, AND YOU
PICK YOUR TEAM.
YOU GET A LONG-RANGE PLAN.
YOU START PLANNING FOR THE
NEXT ELECTION NOW, AND YOU
LEARN MORE FROM THOSE
CAMPAIGNS WHERE YOU
DON'T DO WELL.
I LEARNED MORE IN 1987 IN
THAT ELECTION CAMPAIGN WHEN
THE LIBERALS WON AN
OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, THAN
I'D EVER LEARNED IN ANY
PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE, AND
THAT'S WHAT -- I MEAN THE
VALUE OF THESE THINGS IS,
LOOK, IT'S A
VOLATILE ELECTORATE.
WE'RE ALL THERE.
WE'VE ALL BEEN IN EACH
OTHER'S POSITIONS, AND
ANYBODY WHO GETS TOO
CONCERNED ONE WAY OR THE
OTHER ABOUT IT IS I THINK
NOT KEEPING IT IN PERSPECTIVE.

Steve says WHO ARE THE KNIVES COMING
OUT FOR IN THE NDP?

Frances says I ACTUALLY THINK THIS TIME
THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
IT HAS IN THE PAST.
I'VE BEEN THROUGH SOME
NOTABLE CAMPAIGNS WHERE,
YOU KNOW, THE CAMPAIGN
ORGANIZERS OR THE EXECUTIVE
OR WHOEVER, HAVE BEEN CALLED
TO TASK AFTERWARDS ABOUT THE
DECISIONS THAT WERE MADE.
WE'VE HAD A CABINET AND A
CAUCUS MEETING IN THE LAST
COUPLE OF DAYS AND ACTUALLY
THERE'S AN INCREDIBLE SENSE
OF SPIRIT AND REAL
GENEROSITY TOWARDS THE
CAMPAIGN AND
HOW IT WAS WON.
WE THINK WE DID
THE RIGHT THINGS.
WE THINK IT WASN'T THERE
FOR US TO WIN THIS TIME.
AND THAT IT HAD, YOU KNOW,
AS MUCH TO DO WITH FOUR AND
A HALF YEARS OF DIFFICULT
DECISIONS THROUGH A
RECESSION, SOME OF
THEM NOT POPULAR.
SOME OF THE THINGS THAT
I DON'T THINK A SOCIAL
DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT
COULD HAVE NOT DONE, LIKE
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY AND OTHERS
THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T READY
FOR AND TO A LARGE
DEGREE DIDN'T LIKE.
I THINK IT HAD MORE TO DO
WITH THAT THAN THIS CAMPAIGN
IN ANY SENSE.
SO THIS TIME I THINK WE'RE
GOING TO COME OUT FAIRLY
UNIFIED AND FEELING GOOD
ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN THAT WAS
WON, ABOUT OUR
ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF FOUR AND
A HALF YEARS AND JUST START
TO LOOK FOR THE FUTURE.

Steve says I HAVE TIME LEFT TO THANK
THE THREE OF YOU FOR
GATHERING SO FAITHFULLY
WITH US HERE.
WE HAVE APPRECIATED
YOUR TIME.

Richard says THANK YOU.

Steve says GOOD LUCK IN YOUR LAW
CAREER BACK IN OTTAWA.

Richard says YES.
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR EFFORTS
IN THE HOUSE IN THE
NEXT SESSION.

Frances says THANK YOU.

Steve says AND GOOD LUCK WITH
YOUR NEW GOVERNMENT.

Frances says AND YOUR NEW JOB.

Steve says POTENTIALLY
YOUR NEW JOB.

Richard says THAT WAS THE
CALL RIGHT THERE.

Steve says AND WE WISH
YOU ALL WELL.

Richard says THANK YOU.

Frances says IT'S BEEN FUN.

Paul says IT'S BEEN GREAT.

Steve says CHEERS, EVERYBODY.

Frances says CHEERS.

Back in the studio, Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK?
SHOULD MIKE HARRIS
GIVE PAUL RHODES A JOB?

Dianne and Tim laugh.

Steve says NO, NEVER MIND.
NEVER MIND.
WE GOT TWO
MINUTES LEFT HERE.
LESSONS FROM THE CAMPAIGN?
LESSONS TO BE LEARNED?
WHERE DO YOU THINK
IT WENT WRONG?
GO AHEAD.
PICK IT UP, TIM.

Tim says WELL, I THINK -- I MEAN IT'S
IMPORTANT AND WHAT IT SHOWS IS
THE PUBLIC WANTS TO
KNOW WHERE YOU STAND.
I MEAN THEY'RE NOT
PREPARED TO ACCEPT PABLUM.
AND I'M NOT SURE THEY EVER
HAVE BEEN, BUT THEY'RE
CLEARLY NOT ANYMORE.
THEY WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY
WHERE YOU STAND AND THEY
WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU STAND
FOR, AND AS I WAS SAYING TO
YOU BEFORE, I THINK THE
PROBLEM WE HAD WAS THAT IF
YOU, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WENT
INTO THAT POLLING BOOTH AND
THEY COULD SAY, WELL,
I KNOW WHERE BOB RAE STANDS
AND I KNOW WHERE
MIKE HARRIS STANDS.
BUT I'M NOT SURE WHEN THEY
ASKED THEMSELVES WHERE LYN
MCLEOD STANDS THERE WAS
A CLEAR ENOUGH IMAGE OF
WHAT THAT WAS.

Steve says SHOULD
SHE STEP DOWN?

Tim says WELL, I DON'T -- THAT'S A
DECISION SHE'LL HAVE TO MAKE.

Steve says YOU'RE OUT
OF POLITICS NOW.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER
QUESTIONS THAT WAY ANYMORE.

They laugh.

Tim says WELL, IT'S, YOU KNOW,
IT'S A DIFFICULT SITUATION.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'LL
HAVE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION
ABOUT WHAT WENT WRONG AND
THE PARTY'S GOING TO NEED
SOME RENEWAL.

Steve says HOW DO YOU THINK YOUR HEAD
OFFICE RAN THE CAMPAIGN?
THEY DO A GOOD JOB?

Dianne says I THINK THE BASIC PROBLEM
WAS THAT WE DIDN'T GET OUR
MESSAGE OUT AS TO WHAT
LIBERALS STOOD FOR.
THE CONSERVATIVE HAD
A VERY SIMPLE MESSAGE.
I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO
HAVE PROBLEMS IMPLEMENTING
SOME OF IT BECAUSE IT'S
UNWORKABLE, BUT THAT WAS
IRRELEVANT IN THE CAMPAIGN.
THE MESSAGE WAS SIMPLE AND
REPEATED AND REPEATED
AND REPEATED.
WE DIDN'T DO THAT.

Steve says SO MAYBE
YOU MADE A MISTAKE.
WE DIDN'T HAVE A MESSAGE.
MAYBE A MISTAKE TO GO FOR A
BROAD BASED 150 PROMISE RED
BOOK, AS OPPOSED TO JUST
NAILING TWO OR THREE THINGS.

Dianne says YOU COULD HAVE
HAD THAT, TOO.
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH
HAVING THE RED BOOK BECAUSE
IT SAID WHERE LIBERALS
STOOD ON VIRTUALLY EVERY
ISSUE UNDER THE SUN.
BUT I THINK WE HAD TO DEFINE
A SIMPLE MESSAGE THAT WAS
COMPREHENSIBLE TO PEOPLE AS
TO WHAT WE STOOD FOR, AND AT
THE END OF THE CAMPAIGN,
PEOPLE STILL DIDN'T KNOW.

Steve says TWENTY SECONDS, TIM.

Tim says I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, I
THINK A PLAN IS IMPORTANT.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOW
DE RIGOUR FOR POLITICS TO
SAY HERE'S, YOU KNOW,
HERE'S
THE
PLAN.
THE PROBLEM WAS IS THE PLAN
DIDN'T COME WITH AND HERE
ARE THE KEY SYMBOLIC
COMMITMENTS THAT MAKE UP THE
VALUES THAT WE ARE GOING
TO BRING TO THE JOB OF
GOVERNING, AND PEOPLE DIDN'T
HEAR THAT MESSAGE FOR A
VARIETY OF REASONS AND, YOU
KNOW, I SAW ON THE CLIP,
I THINK LOTS OF PEOPLE
ARE LOOKING FORWARD.
WE HAD OUR OWN CAUCUS MEETING
AND IT WAS ACTUALLY A PRETTY
FRIENDLY AFFAIR AND I THINK,
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE LOOKING
FORWARD TO HOW WE BUILD
FROM HERE AND NOT
LOOKING BACKWARDS.

Steve says WE GOT TO
GO FROM HERE.
WE APOLOGIZE FOR GEORGE
MAMMOLITI FROM THE NDP NOT
BEING HERE, BUT WE THANK TIM
MURPHY AND DIANNE POOLE AND
WISH YOU BOTH WELL
IN YOUR FUTURES.

Tim says GLAD TO DO IT.
ANY TIME.

Dianne says THANK YOU.

Steve says WE WELCOME YOUR
COMMENTS ON THE PROGRAM.
SO PLEASE WRITE TO US AT:

A slate appears with a caption that reads "4th Reading. Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, Ontario. M4T 2T1."

Steve says OR IF YOU WANT TO
SEND US AN E-MAIL ADDRESS IT TO:

Another slate appears. It reads "Studio 2. Internet address: Studio 2@tvo.org."

Steve says I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK…

(music plays)

Fast clips from the show play as the end credits roll.

Production manager, Wally Teska.

Show producer, Alex Bystram.

Director, Allan Myers.

NABET SNTC.

A production of TVOntario. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority. 1995.

Watch: The Outgoing