Transcript: Fourth Reading V - Circular 14 | Jan 22, 1995

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve Paikin says THIS WEEK,
HITTING THE BOOKS.

A clip of girls reading in a library appears on screen.

Steve says WHO DECIDES WHAT
OUR STUDENTS READ?

Sandra Gwyn appears on screen sitting in a lazy boy. Sandra is in her fifties, has short, blond hair cut in the shape of a bob, wears large glasses, and wears a black dress.

Sandra Gwyn says THIS
IS CENSORSHIP.
IT SEEMS TO US OF
THE MOST INSIDIOUS
AND INVIDIOUS KIND.

Steve Paikin says THIS
IS 4TH READING.

(music plays)

In the studio, Steve sits at a table in the shape of a 4. Steve is in his thirties, has short, dark, curly brown hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a brown plaid blazer and solid black shirt.

Steve says WHAT OUR KIDS GET TO READ
IN SCHOOL HAS ALWAYS BEEN
A HOT TOPIC FOR
PARENTS AND EDUCATORS.
IT IS SO TRICKY, OF
COURSE, BECAUSE COMPETING
INTERESTS ARE
EVER PRESENT.
PROTECTING FREEDOM OF
EXPRESSION WHILE
NOT OFFENDING ANYONE IS
A TOUGH BALANCING ACT.
THE QUESTION IS, WHEN
DOES SENSITIVITY
BECOME CENSORSHIP?
TODAY WE'RE GOING TO
TELL YOU ABOUT SOMETHING
CALLED CIRCULAR 14.
IT IS A PRODUCT OF THE
PROVINCE'S ATTEMPT
TO ACHIEVE EQUILIBRIUM.
IT IS A LIST OF
TEXTBOOKS.
THIS IS NOT LITERATURE
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT,
JUST TEXTBOOKS FOR SCHOOLS,
AND LEARNING MATERIALS
THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY
THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION,
AND RECENTLY THE
MINISTRY'S BEEN GETTING
AN EARFUL OVER
CIRCULAR 14.

A clip rolls and Oakland Ross in his fifties with short, light blond, side-parted hair, clean-shaven, and wearing a brown button-down shirt reads a book at a kitchen table.

Oakland Ross says "DAMN RIGHT!"
LOVESTEAD DRAINED HIS BEER
AND SLAMMED DOWN THE MUG.
HE ASKED PEDRO
FOR ANOTHER.
WEPPLER SHOOK
HIS HEAD.
IT WAS RIDICULOUS.
HE SIPPED HIS BEER
AND TRIED TO THINK
OF SOME MORE SYNONYMS
FOR WAR-TORN,
BUT IT WAS NO USE.
HE'D RUN OUT.
"AH, MES AMIS!"
IT WAS JEAN MARC.
HE WADDLED INTO THE
BAR FROM THE LOBBY,
CLIMBED ONTO A STOOL
BESIDE LOVESTEAD,
ORDERED A COGNAC.

Steve Paikin says WRITER
OAKLAND ROSS IS READING
FROM HIS SHORT STORY:
SYNONYMS FOR WAR-TORN.
THE STORY IS INCLUDED IN A
TEXTBOOK FOR HIGH SCHOOL
STUDENTS, BUT A LOT OF WHAT
YOU JUST HEARD WILL BE
MISSING FROM THE VERSION
THE STUDENTS WILL READ.

Oakland Ross appears on screen with a caption that reads "Oakland Ross, writer."

Oakland Ross says ALL THESE THINGS
ARE TAKEN OUT
BUT THE SCENE STILL
TAKES PLACE IN A BAR,
BUT NOBODY'S DRINKING OR
SWEARING OR SMOKING AND
IT'S PARTICULARLY ODD BECAUSE
ONE OF THE CHARACTERS,
CRUCIAL TO HIS PERSONALITY,
IS THAT HE'S QUITE
A SEVERE ALCOHOLIC.
IT JUST SEEMED INANE
AND UNNECESSARY.

Steve says THE TEXTBOOK EDITOR
TOLD ROSS THE CHANGES
WERE NECESSARY TO
ENSURE THE TEXTBOOK
WOULD APPEAR ON SOMETHING
CALLED CIRCULAR 14.
THAT'S A LIST OF ALL THE
TEXTBOOKS AND LEARNING
MATERIALS WHICH THE
MINISTRY OF EDUCATION
HAS APPROVED FOR USE
IN ONTARIO SCHOOLS.
AND RECENTLY, CIRCULAR
14 HAS COME UNDER
SOME SCRUTINY.
BOTH OAKLAND ROSS AND
UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY
PROFESSOR TOM FLANAGAN
HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT.
SANDRA GWYN IS ON THE
EXECUTIVE OF PEN CANADA.

Sandra Gwyn appears on screen sitting in a lazy boy and says WE ARE AN
ORGANIZATION THAT IS
VERY DEEPLY COMMITTED TO
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
AND WE ARE
ANTI-CENSORSHIP.
NOW THIS IS CENSORSHIP
IT SEEMS TO US
OF THE MOST INSIDIOUS
AND INVIDIOUS KIND.

Oakland Ross says AND THIS OTHER THING THAT
COMES UP IN MY MIND, TOO,
WHICH IS NOT CENSORSHIP
BUT IS SELF-CENSORSHIP,
AND THAT YOU
HAVE PUBLISHERS,
WHICH I THINK IS WHAT HAPPENED
WITH REGARD TO MY STORY,
ANTICIPATING PROBLEMS
THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE WITH
THE MINISTRY AND THEREFORE
CENSORING THEMSELVES
IN ADVANCE, AND THAT'S A
VERY INSIDIOUS PROCESS.

Sandra Gwyn says I DON'T THINK
ANYONE WOULD QUARREL
WITH THE IDEA THAT THE ONTARIO
DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
SHOULD HAVE A LIST OF
APPROVED MATERIALS,
BUT THE PROCESS BY
WHICH THESE ARE CHOSEN
SHOULD BE AN OPEN
PROCESS, AND IT SHOULD
BE OPEN TO PUBLIC DEBATE.
AND I THINK THAT
THAT IS OUR CONCERN,
THAT THINGS ARE HAPPENING,
DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE
BY PEOPLE WHO ARE
NOT ACCOUNTABLE.

Steve Paikin says LET'S GO BACK
TO OAKLAND ROSS AND HIS STORY.
IT'S ABOUT A JOURNALIST
SEARCHING FOR SEVEN CHILDREN
WHO HAVE DISAPPEARED.
ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT STATED,
THE READER IS LEFT
TO ASSUME THE CHILDREN HAVE
BEEN BRUTALLY MURDERED.

Oakland Ross says AND THERE WAS NO
PROBLEM WITH THAT.
THAT'S WHY PRESUMABLY
THEY WANTED TO INCLUDE
THE STORY IN THE TEXTBOOK,
BECAUSE IT WAS ABOUT
SOMETHING THAT THEY THOUGHT
KIDS SHOULD TALK ABOUT.
SO THAT'S ALL LEFT IN.
BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, ISSUES
OF LIKE - OR REFERENCES
TO SWEARING OR SMOKING OR
DRINKING WERE TAKEN OUT,
IT DOES SEEM LIKE,
YOU KNOW, WELL,
IF KIDS CAN TALK ABOUT THE
ABDUCTION AND MURDER
OF CHILDREN IN EL SALVADOR,
THEN SURELY THEY CAN
TALK ABOUT ISSUES SUCH
AS AMERICANS SMOKING
OR DRINKING OR
SWEARING.
SO IT DOES SEEM AS
KIND OF A LOPSIDED
SET OF VALUES THAT
GOVERN THIS PROCESS.

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY, LET'S CONTINUE
OUR DISCUSSION.
AND JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT
CIRCULAR 14 IS JOHN IRWIN.
HE IS THE CHAIR OF THE
CIRCULAR 14 ADVISORY
COMMITTEE AND HE'S ALSO
A FORMER PUBLISHER.
NOW HE IS A PUBLISHING
CONSULTANT.
WELCOME, SIR.

John Irwin appears on screen in the studio. John is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, straight gray hair, wears large frameless glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a gray blazer, white shirt, and patterned tie.

John Irwin says THANK YOU.

Steve says GLAD TO HAVE
YOU HERE.

John Irwin says GLAD
TO BE HERE.

Steve says YOU KNOW OUR
GANG HERE.
I DO.
HUGH MACKENZIE, JANE PEPINO,
AND Mr. GOSSAGE, SIR,
PATRICK GOSSAGE, WELCOME
BACK ONE AND ALL.
LET'S GET INTO
THIS HERE.
WHO AND HOW ARE THE
DECISIONS MADE ABOUT
WHAT GETS ON
CIRCULAR 14?

John Irwin says THE DECISIONS ARE MADE
ACCORDING TO HOW A BOOK
THAT IS SUBMITTED FITS THE
GUIDELINES AND CONFORMS
TO A SERIES OF QUESTIONS
THAT EVALUATORS ARE ASKED.

Steve Paikin says NOW, I'VE
SEEN A LIST OF SOME
OF THE THINGS THAT ARE
TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION,
SOME OF THE STEREOTYPES
THEY LOOK OUT FOR.
OBVIOUSLY RACIAL
STEREOTYPES, SOCIAL,
ETHNO-CULTURAL,
POLITICAL, I MEAN,
THE LIST GOES
ON AND ON.
IS THIS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF
WHAT'S THE EXPRESSION?
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
GONE AMUCK?
THAT'S WHAT FOLKS
WANT TO KNOW.

John Irwin says THE COMMITTEE THAT I
HAVE THE PRIVILEGE
OF CHAIRING ADVISES THE
MINISTRY ON POLICY.
AND WE BELIEVE IN THE
COMMITTEE THAT IT IS
IMPORTANT THAT CHILDREN IN
OUR SCHOOLS SHOULD HAVE
GOOD EXPERIENCES AND THAT
THEY SHOULD NOT BE SUBJECT
TO DIFFICULT EXPERIENCES
THAT WILL PUT THEM
IN AN AWKWARD AND
UNHAPPY SITUATION.

Steve says WELL, THAT'S
SOUNDS VERY NICE
ON THE SURFACE, BUT
HAS THAT SORT TAKEN
ALL THE GRIT OUT
OF EDUCATION?
OR IS IT MAKING THINGS
A LITTLE TOO SANITIZED?
I DON'T KNOW.
WHAT DO WE
THINK HERE?
ANYBODY WANT TO TAKE
ISSUE WITH THAT?

Hugh Mackenzie appears on screen with a caption that reads "Hugh Mackenzie, Former Aide to Bob Rae." Hugh is in his fifties, has short, side-parted gray hair, wears big thin-rimmed glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a brown suit, white shirt, and patterned brown tie.

Hugh Mackenzie says
WELL, I GUESS,
IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT WE GET FOCUSED
ON THE RIGHT
THING HERE.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
SOMETHING THAT APPLIES
TO TEXTBOOKS AND
SOMETIMES IT'S HARD
TO REMEMBER
THESE THINGS.

Steve says WE'RE NOT BANNING MARK
TWAIN HERE, RIGHT?

Hugh Mackenzie says EXACTLY, AND PARTICULARLY
WHEN YOU'RE GETTING
AS AGED AS WE ALL ARE, OUR
MOST RECENT EXPERIENCE
WITH EDUCATION'S PROBABLY
UNIVERSITY OR COMMUNITY
COLLEGE OR SOMETHING, AND
WE FORGET THAT WHEN YOU'RE
IN HIGH SCHOOL, THERE'S
KIND OF A BIBLICAL
QUALITY ATTACHED
TO TEXTBOOKS.
YOU READ THE TEXTBOOK AND
THE TEXTBOOK IS THE TRUTH.
SO I THINK IT'S
REALLY IMPORTANT THAT
IT'S NOT A SITUATION WHERE
A BOOK MIGHT BE ONE AMONGST
FIVE OR SIX BOOKS THAT DEAL
WITH THE SAME KIND OF TOPIC
AND PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO
SORT OF JUDGE DIFFERENT
PERSPECTIVES, AND THERE
IS THIS KIND OF BIBLICAL
QUALITY THAT'S ATTACHED
TO THESE THINGS.
AND I THINK IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT WE DON'T
UNINTENTIONALLY CENTRE
PEOPLE OUT OR MAKE PEOPLE
FEEL THAT THEY ARE
INFERIOR TO OTHER PEOPLE
OR CREATE THINGS THAT
DENY THEIR OWN HISTORY.

Steve says BUT IS THIS
AN EXAMPLE -
WHICH ONE OF YOU TWO
WANTS IN ON THIS?
IS THIS TOO
POLITICALLY CORRECT?
IS IT GOING
OVER THE LINE?

Patrick Gossage appears on screen with a caption that reads "Patrick Gossage, President, ‘Media Profile.’" Patrick Gossage is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, light gray hair, wears large glasses, is clean-shaven, and wears a gray suit, white shirt, and green patterned tie.

Patrick Gossage says WELL, THE
ROSS EXAMPLE IS BIZARRE.
IT'S A GOOD JOURNALISTIC
TRICK TO USE SOMETHING,
YOU KNOW, THAT CLEARLY -
CLEARLY HE HAS A FICTIONAL
PIECE IN A TEXTBOOK WHICH
HAS HAD TO FALL UNDER,
YOU KNOW,
THESE GUIDELINES.
YOU KNOW, BUT WHAT
WORRIES ME MORE IS NOT
SO MUCH SINS OF COMMISSION,
BUT SINS OF OMISSION.
AND I AGREE WITH
MY COLLEAGUE.
BUT ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS,
IS THAT THE MULTI-CULTURAL
AND MULTI-RACIAL SOCIETY
THAT WE HAVE NOW,
PARTICULARLY IN TORONTO,
IS UNDER-REPRESENTED.
IT'S NOT WHAT'S SAID
THAT MIGHT OFFEND THEM.
IT'S THE FACT THAT WE DON'T
TALK ABOUT BLACK HISTORY.
THAT THEY'RE NOT INCLUDED.
NO DARN BUREAUCRAT
SITTING AROUND DECIDING
WHAT SHOULD BE OUT ARE
GOING TO HELP THAT.
THEY SHOULD BE
ENCOURAGING WHAT GOES IN.

Steve says WHAT'S THE BIGGEST
BEEF YOUR COMMITTEE,
YOUR ADVISORY
COMMITTEE RUNS INTO?

John Irwin says I WOULD THINK THAT THE
POINT THAT HAS JUST BEEN MADE
IS THAT, THAT OUR
MATERIALS DO NOT ADEQUATELY
REPRESENT THE REALITY
IN OUR CITY AND, INDEED,
IN THE PROVINCE, AND THAT
THERE OUGHT TO BE A
MUCH WIDER REPRESENTATION.
THE BIAS BY EXCLUSION IS
COMMONLY TALKED ABOUT -
OR BY OMISSION.
AND SO WE HEAR A GREAT
DEAL ABOUT GROUPS
THAT ARE NOT PROPERLY
REPRESENTED.

Steve says THAT'S BIAS BY OMISSION,
IN OTHER WORDS.
OMISSION OR
EXCLUSION, YES.

John Irwin says YEAH, OR EXCLUSION.

Patrick Gossage says SO IT
SEEMS TO ME THAT, I MEAN,
MAYBE HERE'S ONE OF THOSE
BIZARRE AREAS WHERE IN FACT
WE NEED SOME ENCOURAGEMENT
AND PERHAPS SOME POSITIVE
ENCOURAGEMENT AND POSITIVE
REGULATIONS THAT IN FACT
FORCE AUTHORS AND FORCE
TEXTBOOKS WRITERS TO -

Steve says YOU KNOW, EXCEPT THAT -

Patrick Gossage says HAVE
EVEN MORE CONTROL, NOT LESS!

Steve says LET ME BRANDISH
EXHIBIT 1 RIGHT HERE.
WE REFERRED TO THIS IN
THE BACKGROUND PIECE.
TOM FLANAGAN, WHO'S
PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL
SCIENCE AT UNIVERSITY
OF CALGARY, HEADLINE,
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
ONTARIO STYLE,
YOU KNOW, HE HAD
TROUBLES WITH CIRCULAR 14
BECAUSE SOMEBODY IN THE
MINISTRY OF EDUCATION
ALLEGED A BIAS AGAINST
JEWS IN HIS WORK.
AND THE EXPLANATION GIVEN
WAS THAT ISRAEL WAS NOT
INCLUDED IN THE INDEX AND
THE PLO AND THE PALESTINIANS
ARE INCLUDED IN THE INDEX.
AS A RESULT, THEY SAID THIS
WAS A CALCULATED OMISSION,
AND HE FINDS THAT PARANOID
AND ABSURD AND RIDICULOUS.
DOES HE HAVE A POINT?

John Irwin says I THINK THAT SOMETHING
LIKE THAT WOULD NEVER
COME TO OUR COMMITTEE.
IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT
WENT ON BEHIND THE SCENES.
OBVIOUSLY SOMEBODY
MADE A DECISION,
ASSUMING THE
REPORT IS ADEQUATE,
BUT IT DOESN'T
MAKE SENSE TO ME.

Patrick Gossage says IT SOUNDS
LIKE POOR SCHOLARSHIP TO ME.
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN
TALK ABOUT THE MID-EAST
WITHOUT TALKING
ABOUT ISRAEL.
I MEAN, I'M NOT SO
SHOCKED BY THAT.

Jane Pepino appears on screen sitting next to Patrick with a caption that reads "Jane Pepino, Ontario Tory Activist." Jane is in her forties, has short, straight gray hair cut in the shape of a bob, and wears a gray blazer and cream top underneath.

Jane Pepino IT WAS A 1982
TEXTBOOK, IF I RECALL,
I THINK JOHN'S COMMENT
MAKES VERY CLEAR
THE FACT THAT SOME OF
THE THINGS DON'T COME
TO HIS COMMITTEE,
AND THE STRUCTURE
THAT'S BEEN SET UP,
WE MIGHT ALL SUPPORT.

John Irwin says WE'RE ONLY POLICY
ADVISORY.

Jane Pepino says THAT'S RIGHT.
BUT I THINK THE SCARIER
THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE ISSUE
IS THAT WE HAVE A BUNCH
OF BUREAUCRATS
WHO ARE INTERPRETING
EASILY INTERPRETABLE,
VERY FLEXIBLE, GUIDELINEY,
TOUCHY, FEELY THINGS,
AND WHAT I WORRY
ABOUT CONSTANTLY IS,
WHAT MESSAGE THEY THINK THEIR
BOSSES WILL WANT TO HEAR,
AND WHAT IT IS THEY
FEEL IS THE ENVIRONMENT
THAT'S BEEN FORMED BY
POLICY OR BY POLITICS
FOR THEIR INTERPRETATION.
AND I THINK THAT'S
WHY WE'RE GETTING
SOME OF THESE RULINGS THAT
ARE BIZARRE, FRANKLY.

Steve says YOU USED TO BE
IN PUBLISHING, RIGHT,
OR WHEN PUBLISHING
WAS YOU.

John Irwin says FOR MANY,
MANY YEARS, YES.

Steve says DO YOU BELIEVE
THAT PUBLISHERS
ARE CENSORING THEMSELVES
SO THAT THEY CAN
GET ON THE CIRCULAR 14 AND
THEREFORE BE ELIGIBLE
FOR DISTRIBUTION TO ALL THE
STUDENTS IN THE PROVINCE?

John Irwin says I DON'T LIKE THE
TERMINOLOGY BUT IT AMOUNTS
TO THAT IN MANY CASES.
OF COURSE, YOU
HAVE TO QUALIFY.
YOU KNOW WHAT THE GRID IS
GOING TO BE THAT THE BOOK
GOES THROUGH, AND THERE
IS ABSOLUTELY NO POINT
IN IGNORING, FOR INSTANCE,
GENDER EQUALITY.
THERE'S NO POINT IN NOT
SHOWING THE VARIOUS
KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU
NEED TO SHOW IN ORDER
TO REPRESENT THE REALITY
THAT IS ONTARIO TODAY.
AND IF THAT IS
CENSORSHIP, THEN, YES.

Steve Paikin says IS
THAT A GOOD THING?

John Irwin says I THINK IT MAKES THE BOOKS
SUITABLE FOR THEIR PURPOSE,
WHICH IS TO BE USABLE BY
A HETEROGENEOUS GROUP
OF YOUNG PEOPLE.

Jane Pepino says WHAT I FIND
JUST AS DISTURBING, THOUGH,
IS THE FACT THAT WE HAVE AN
EDICT OUT OF THIS GOVERNMENT,
AND I UNDERSTAND THAT LYN
McLEOD HAS SAID SHE'LL
DO THE SAME - THAT
REQUIRES ALL TEXTBOOKS
TO BE MADE IN CANADA.
IF WHAT WE'RE LOOKING
FOR IS THE BEST,
THE MOST INCLUSIONARY.
I DON'T PUT IT BEYOND
THE PALE OF POSSIBILITY
THAT WE MIGHT ACTUALLY
LEARN SOMETHING OUT
OF BRITAIN, OUT OF
THE UNITED STATES,
AND THAT THERE WOULD BE VERY
GOOD TEXTBOOKS THAT WOULD
MEET ALL OF THE STANDARDS
THAT WE WOULD AGREE UPON
AND IN AN APPROPRIATE WAY.
AND YET SOMEHOW, BECAUSE
IT'S NOT PRINTED IN MARKHAM,
OR WHATEVER THE HEART OF
CANADIAN PUBLISHING IS,
IT'S OFF THE LIST.
AND I HAVE A LOT OF
TROUBLE WITH THAT,

Steve says IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -
Ms. McLEOD GOT SOME PRETTY
GOOD NOTICES OVER THAT.

Jane Pepino says PARDON ME?

Steve says Ms. McLEOD GOT SOME PRETTY
GOOD PRESS OVER THAT,
NO DOUBT AIDED BY HER
FRIEND PATRICK GOSSAGE.

Jane Pepino says WHO
CALLED UP ALL HIS FRIENDS
IN THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY,
BUT YOU HAVEN'T TALKED -

Patrick Gossage says
SHH, SHH, SHH.
THAT'S CONFIRMATION.

John Irwin says YES, CLARIFY
THE ISSUE, WOULD YOU?

Patrick Gossage says CAN
I SAY SOMETHING
AND I THINK
IT'S IMPORTANT.
IN THE '30s WHEN, IRWIN,
PARKER PUBLISHING
WAS A GOOD CANADIAN FIRM
AND IN THE LAST 30 YEARS,
THERE' BEEN A SYSTEMATIC
REDUCTION TO ALMOST ZERO
OF CANADIAN PUBLISHING
FIRMS, CANADIAN OWNED
PUBLISHING FIRMS.
IN THE MEANWHILE,
SINCE THE '30s,
WE'VE TAKEN AS A PUBLIC
POLICY OBJECTIVE THAT
BROADCASTING, COMMUNICATION,
EVEN THE AD AGENCIES
WE DEAL WITH IN THIS
PROVINCE, BE CANADIAN OWNED.
I DON'T THINK IT'S SO
SHOCKING TO SUGGEST
THAT THERE SHOULD BE A
BIAS TOWARDS CANADIAN
OWNED PUBLISHERS.
I JUST THINK, HOW CAN WE
DO IT IN BROADCASTING
AND NOT DO IT IN PUBLISHING
THAT INFLUENCES OUR KIDS?
GIVE ME A BREAK!

Hugh Mackenzie says I THINK THE
BIG PROBLEM THAT SCHOOL
TEXTBOOK PUBLISHING HAS
AT THE MOMENT IS THAT
SCHOOLS AREN'T
BUYING ANY OF THEM.
SO YOU CAN GET
ONTO THE LIST
BUT YOU CAN'T
SELL ANY BOOKS.

Jane Pepino says
TRANSFER PAYMENTS.

Hugh Mackenzie says I WANT TO JUMP ON A POINT
THAT PATRICK RAISED, AS WELL.
I AGREE THAT IT'S IMPORTANT
TO TRY TO ENCOURAGE
SOME INNOVATION IN
TEXTBOOK WRITING AND TO
GET SOME OF THESE OTHER
PERSPECTIVES IN.
BUT ONE OF THE CONVERSATIONS
THAT WE WERE HAVING
IN THE GREEN ROOM BEFOREHAND
WAS THAT THE POLICY
OF THE GOVERNMENT IS THAT
THEY WON'T REVIEW ANYTHING
UNLESS IT'S ACTUALLY IN
PRINT, WHICH JUST MAKES
IT ENORMOUSLY RISKY TO DO
ANYTHING OTHER THAN
THE MOST CONSERVATIVE,
MOST CAREFULLY CONSTRUED
READING OF THESE
GUIDELINES.
IT'S AN ATMOSPHERE THAT
ENCOURAGES THE KIND
OF SELF-CENSORSHIP.
SO I GUESS, IF I HAD
MY DRUTHERS, I'D SAY,
LET'S MAKE SURE THAT WE
REVIEW THINGS IN GALLEY FORM
OR EVEN IN DRAFT FORM
AND GET SOME FEEDBACK.
GIVE THESE PUBLISHERS SOME
FEEDBACK ABOUT WHETHER
THESE THINGS ARE ACTUALLY
GOING TO BE USABLE
IN THE CLASSROOMS OR NOT SO
THAT THERE AREN'T SO MANY -

Steve says IS THIS SO PROBLEMATIC AND
ARE THERE SO MANY COMPLAINTS
THAT WE NEED A COMMITTEE
LIKE YOURS ADVISING;
THAT WE NEED A CIRCULAR
14 LOOKING OUT
FOR ANY DANGER THAT MIGHT
BE ON THE HORIZON?

John Irwin says THIS COMMITTEE AROSE OUT
OF THE ROMER COMMISSION
SOME 20-ODD YEARS AGO TO
PROVIDE LIAISON BETWEEN
THE PRIVATE SECTOR
PUBLISHERS AND
THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION
AND EDUCATORS BROADLY.
AND WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS
SIMPLY TO TELL THE MINISTRY
ABOUT THE CONCERNS AND
ADVISE THEM ON POLICY,
AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY
USEFUL TOOL OVER THE YEARS
TO HELP THE MINISTRY MAKE
GOOD DECISIONS
WITH RESPECT TO THE
AUTHORIZATION OF MATERIALS.

Steve says I DON'T WANT TO
DUMP ON BUREAUCRATS
BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT IT
TOUGH ENOUGH RIGHT NOW.

Patrick Gossage says
EASY TARGET.
EASY TARGET, EXACTLY.
LET'S SAY THEY'RE DOING BETTER
AS A CONSEQUENCE OF OUR ADVICE.

Patrick Gossage says THERE USED TO BE A LOT
LESS, STEVE, A LOT LESS.
YES, THAT'S TRUE.
THERE'S NO DOUBT
ABOUT THAT.

Steve says BUT THE QUESTION PERSISTS, WHO
EVALUATES THE EVALUATORS?
HOW DO WE DETERMINE WHETHER
OR NOT THESE PEOPLE ARE
DOING THEIR JOBS PROPERLY
AND THAT THEY'RE NOT,
IN THE OPINION OF PROFESSOR
FLANAGAN, AT LEAST,
MAKING RIDICULOUS
DECISIONS AND - YOU KNOW,
I COULD FOLLOW UP HERE WITH
SOME MORE COMMENTS THAT
HE MADE ABOUT HOW HE TRIED TO
FIND OUT WHY HIS EVALUATOR
DIDN'T LIKE HIS BOOK, AND
HE WAS TOLD, YOU KNOW,
WE DON'T DEIGN TO DEAL
WITH THESE AUTHORS,
LET THEM GO FIND
JUSTICE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
WHO EVALUATES
THE EVALUATORS?

Patrick Gossage says
TEACHERS.
THEY'RE TEACHERS,
A LOT OF THEM.

Hugh Mackenzie says
AT THE VERY LEAST,
I WOULD HOPE WE HAVEN'T
CONTRACTED IT OUT
TO THE FRASER INSTITUTE.
[laughter]

Steve says BECAUSE WE WANT TO KEEP
THE BUSINESS IN ONTARIO;
IS THAT WHY?
YEAH, EXACTLY.
OH, I SEE.

Hugh Mackenzie says COULD I ASK JOHN
A QUESTION?

Steve says HOW DO WE DETERMINE IF THE
BUREAUCRATS ARE DOING
THEIR JOBS PROPERLY?
WHO MAKES THAT
DETERMINATION?

John Irwin says HOW DO YOU DETERMINE
THAT IN ANY AREA?

Patrick Gossage says WELL, THERE ARE
TEACHERS THAT DO THIS.
IT'S VERY COMMON IN THE
PUBLISHING INDUSTRY
TO SEND MANUSCRIPTS
OUT TO READERS
AND THAT'S WHAT
THIS HAS DONE.
BUT COULD I ASK
HIM A QUESTION?

Steve Paikin says SHOOT.

Patrick Gossage says AND THAT IS, WHAT
ABOUT MULTI-MEDIA?
NOW, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S NO CANADIAN
ENCYCLOPEDIA IN
MULTI-MEDIA.
THERE'S ENCARTA, WHICH A
LOT OF KIDS KNOW ABOUT.
IT'S A FANTASTIC
MICROSOFT PRODUCT,
AND THESE ARE THE LEARNING
SYSTEMS OF THE FUTURE.
HOW IN HEAVEN'S NAME IS
YOUR GROUP GOING TO DEAL
WITH CD-ROM
LEARNING MATERIALS?

Steve says IS MEL HURTIG'S
ENCYCLOPEDIA ON CD-ROM?

John Irwin says I
BELIEVE IT IS.

Patrick Gossage says
NO, IT ISN'T - NO.
YEAH, BUT IT'S NOT
IN MULTI-MEDIA.
IT HASN'T GOT MOVING
IMAGES AND SO ON.
ALL THE KIDS I
KNOW USE ENCARTA.
NOW, WHAT ARE
WE GOING TO DO?
ARE WE GOING TO ENCOURAGE
CANADIANS TO DO THIS?

John Irwin says HAVE TO.

Patrick Gossage says HOW ARE
YOU GOING TO JUDGE THEM?

John Irwin says WELL, AND THAT'S WHY IT
HASN'T HAPPENED UP 'TIL NOW.
EVERY TIME THE COMMITTEE HAS
COME TO THE POINT OF SAYING
WE SHOULD EVALUATE COMPUTER
SOFTWARE AND THESE
OTHER MEDIA, IT
HAS BECOME ALMOST
IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGURE
OUT HOW TO DO.

Patrick Gossage says
UNREGULATABLE.

John Irwin says ONE CAN GO THROUGH A
BOOK PAGE BY PAGE
AND SEE WHAT IS THERE.
IT IS VERY MUCH
MORE DIFFICULT
IN THE OTHER
MEDIA TO DO THAT.

Patrick Gossage says MAYBE
YOU'RE GOING TO BE
OUT OF BUSINESS ANYWAY.

John Irwin says WELL, THERE ARE - THERE'S
SUCH A WIDE VARIETY OF
MATERIALS AVAILABLE NOW THAT
MANY PUBLISHERS FIND IT
VERY DIFFICULT TO PUBLISH
FOR THIS MARKET.

Steve Paikin says DO YOU
WANT TO JUST HOLD THAT.
THIS IS ACTUALLY - PEOPLE
HAVEN'T ACTUALLY HAD
A CHANCE TO SEE
THIS THING.

John Irwin says THAT'S CIRCULAR 14.

Steve Paikin says DO YOU
WANT TO FLIP THROUGH IT.
THAT'S PRETTY THICK.
THERE'S A LOT OF
PAGES IN THERE.

John Irwin says THESE ARE THE BOOKS
THAT ARE AUTHORIZED
OR APPROVED FOR PURCHASE
FOR TEXT USE IN ONTARIO.
AND THESE BOOKS HAVE ALL
BEEN EVALUATED BY PRACTISING
EDUCATORS AND HAVE BEEN
FOUND TO MEET THE GUIDELINES
THAT IS, TO MEET THE
CURRICULUM GUIDELINES
THAT THEY ARE FOR AND TO MEET
THE EVALUATION GUIDELINES
FOR CURRICULUM FIT AND
FOR BIAS AND WHATEVER.

Patrick Gossage says DO THE
BOARDS HAVE DISCRETION
TO GO OUTSIDE THAT?
I MEAN, THERE'S NOTHING TO
PREVENT THEM FROM DOING THAT.

John Irwin says CERTAINLY WITH
RESPECT TO LITERATURE,
AND IF YOU READ THE
FINE PRINT HERE,
THERE ARE VARIOUS COURSES
WHERE PERMISSION CAN BE GOT
OR WHERE PERMISSION
SIMPLY HAS TO BE GIVEN
AT THE SCHOOL
BOARD LEVEL.

Patrick Gossage says A
PAPAL EDICT OR SOMETHING.

Jane Pepino says WELL, IT ALSO
STRIKES ME THAT THIS PROBLEM
MIGHT EVENTUALLY
CURE ITSELF BECAUSE
THE MARKET APPEARS
TO BE SATURATED.
THERE'S A BROAD CHOICE
OF CURRENT MATERIAL.
HOW OFTEN DO YOU HAVE TO
RE-WRITE A MATHEMATICS
TEXTBOOK, FOR EXAMPLE?
IT STRIKES ME THAT
THERE'S A LOT OF CHOICE.
THERE ARE SOME

Steve says BASICS THAT ARE ETERNAL.

Hugh Mackenzie says OLD
MATH AND NEW MATH.

Steve says YOU TALKED ABOUT
GUIDELINES, THOUGH,
AND WE'VE GOT A PIECE OF
TAPE FROM OAKLAND ROSS HERE
WHO HAS FURTHER QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHAT THESE GUIDELINES
ARE, WHO MAKES THEM, HOW
THEY GET FIGURED OUT.
LET'S PLAY THIS TAPE
FROM OAKLAND ROSS.
WE'LL COME BACK
AND TALK.
ALAN, DO YOU WANT
TO ROLL THIS, PLEASE?

The clip rolls and Oakland Ross appears on screen and says I WENT OUT AND GOT A COPY OF
CIRCULAR 14 TO SEE WHAT IT
WAS ABOUT, EXPECTING THAT
IT WOULD INCLUDE, YOU KNOW,
A FAIRLY DETAILED LIST
OF CONTENT GUIDELINES.
SO THAT, YOU KNOW, I, AS
A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC,
OR ANYONE ELSE, COULD
KNOW ON WHAT BASIS THESE
DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT WAS
ACCEPTABLE AND WHAT WAS NOT
ACCEPTABLE WERE
BEING MADE.
BUT IN FACT IT INCLUDES
ONLY THE VERY VAGUEST
AND MOST GENERAL
KIND OF GUIDELINES.
MAKES NO REFERENCE TO
SMOKING OR DRINKING OR
SWEARING CERTAINLY,
SO THAT - I MEAN,
IF THERE WERE SUCH A LIST
OF GUIDELINES PUBLICLY
AVAILABLE, THEN PEOPLE
COULD SAY, WELL,
YOU KNOW, I
AGREE WITH THIS.
I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT,
AND PEOPLE COULD HAVE
SOME KIND OF INPUT.

Back in the studio, Steve says DOES HE HAVE A POINT?
DO YOU NEED TO BE MORE
SPECIFIC ABOUT WHAT'S
KOSHER AND WHAT'S NOT?

John Irwin says THE MINISTRY
ACTUALLY PUBLISHED,
I BELIEVE, IN 1978, A LITTLE
BOOK WHICH WAS PUBLISHED
SPECIFICALLY FOR AUTHORS
AND PUBLISHERS
TO GIVE GUIDELINES ON
RACIAL, RELIGIOUS,
CULTURAL STEREOTYPING.
THERE IS A COMMITTEE MEETING
NOW IN THE MINISTRY,
AND I HAVE ATTENDED IT,
SEEKING TO UPDATE THAT DOCUMENT.
A 1978 DOCUMENT IS DEEMED
TO BE VERY OUT OF DATE.
THERE IS ALSO AN EVALUATION
FORM THAT GOES OUT TO
THE EVALUATORS WHICH
EACH NEW BOOK THAT
HAS BECOME EXTREMELY
DETAILED IN THESE MATTERS.
AND THE EVALUATION FORM IS
AVAILABLE TO AUTHORS
AND PUBLISHERS, AND THAT -

Patrick Gossage says SCARY.

John Irwin says INDICATES THE KINDS OF
THINGS THAT EVALUATORS
ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK FOR.

Steve says WHEN CAN WE LOOK FORWARD
TO ACTUALLY HAVING SOME
DECISION MADE ON
THIS, DO YOU SUPPOSE?

John Irwin says OH, THE EVALUATION FORM
IS ON THE TABLE HERE.
WE HAVE IT HERE.

Steve Paikin says OKAY.

Patrick Gossage says I
THINK IT'S SCARY.

Jane Pepino says I HAD A CHANCE TO
RIFFLE THROUGH IT.
IT ASKS FOR THINGS LIKE
SOCIO-ECONOMIC BIAS.

Patrick Gossage says YEAH,
ARE WE NOT ALLOWED
TO WRITE ABOUT POOR
PEOPLE ANYMORE?

Jane Pepino says IT'S POLITICAL
CORRECTNESS IN THE EXTREME.

John Irwin says I THINK YOU MUST WRITE
ABOUT POOR PEOPLE.
THAT'S THE POINT.

Patrick Gossage says I
THINK THE POINT IS,
YOU MUST COMMISSION
STUFF ON THE PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN
LEFT OUT.

Jane Pepino says THE GREAT
GATSBY, IF A TEXTBOOK,
WOULD NEVER BE
PERMITTED TO BE WRITTEN
OR AT LEAST TAUGHT.

Steve says WHILE WE'RE ALL IN THE
THROES OF MAKING OUR OWN
COMMENTARIES HERE, WE'RE
GOING TO HEAR FROM SOMEONE
WHO'S GOING TO REALLY
DRIVE YOU CRAZY
IF YOU THOUGHT
THIS ONE DID.
FIRST OF ALL, Mr. IRWIN,
LET ME THANK YOU.
IT IS TIME FOR
COMMENTARY.
ONTARIO TORY LEADER MIKE
HARRIS HAS BEEN CAPTURING
A LOT OF MEDIA ATTENTION
RECENTLY AND NOT ALL OF
IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.
SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN WATCHING
THE ADVENTURES IN TORY LAND
IS
GLOBE AND MAIL
COLUMNIST MICHAEL VALPY,
PERSONAL FAVOURITES OF
JANE PEPINO, I AM SURE.
HE IS NOT TOO AMUSED WITH
SOME OF MIKE HARRIS'
SENSE OF HUMOUR, SO HERE IS
MICHAEL VALPY'S COMMENTARY.

A clip rolls with Michael Valpy sitting in a living room in front of a hearth. Michael is in his forties, has short, straight, gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a white shirt and patterned dark tie. A caption reads "Michael Valpy, The Globe and Mail."

Michael Valpy says THE NEWS RECENTLY HAS
BEEN A GRIM AND SOLEMN
STRUGGLE TO GET
THROUGH AS IT SO OFTEN IS,
MORE HORROR AND KILLING
IN CHECHNYA AND BOSNIA,
THE CONTINUING CRISIS
OF THE MEXICAN PESO,
THE FUROR OVER NEGATIVE
OPTION MARKETING AND ITS
IMPLICATIONS FOR BROADCAST
REGULATION AND THE FUTURE
OF CANADIAN CULTURE,
AND SO ON AND SO ON.
I HOPE THAT WITH YOUR MINDS
WEIGHTED DOWN WITH THESE ISSUES,
YOU HAVEN'T MISSED THE
MOST IMPORTANT ONTARIO
POLITICAL STORY OF
THE PAST FEW DAYS.
CONSERVATIVE MIKE
HARRIS HAS INDICATED
HE IS GOING TO STOP
BEING A CLOWN.
I DON'T KNOW OF ANY OTHER
POLITICIAN WHO HAS MADE THIS
PLEDGE, OR WHO HAS HAD TO.
Mr. HARRIS SAID, AND I QUOTE
FROM THE CANADIAN PRESS,
SEVERAL PUBLICITY
STUNTS HAD GONE TOO FAR,
SUCH AS DOCTORING A
VIDEOTAPE TO MAKE
BOB RAE LOOK AS IF HE HAD
A SPEECH IMPEDIMENT.
OR READING A FAKE OBSCENE
LETTER IN THE LEGISLATURE
PURPORTING TO HAVE BEEN
WRITTEN BY Mr. RAE ON THE
INTERNET, OR HAVING HIS AIDE
SEND OUT A PUBLICITY
RELEASE TO THE MEDIA
DESCRIBING Mr. RAE AS, QUOTES,
ROADKILL ON THE
INFORMATION HIGHWAY.
AND MAYBE - I DON'T KNOW
HOW BROAD A DEFINITION
OF PUBLICITY STUNT
Mr. HARRIS WANTS TO INCLUDE,
BUT MAYBE IT MIGHT INCLUDE
SOME OF THE FOLLOWING,
SUCH AS HIS REFERENCES TO
IMMIGRANTS AS FREELOADERS,
AND WELFARE RECIPIENTS
AS CHEATS AND SPOILED
LAYABOUTS, AND HAVING
ONE MEMBER OF HIS CAUCUS
THREATEN TO FIRE CIVIL
SERVANTS WHO IMPLEMENT
LEGISLATION THAT THE
CONSERVATIVES DON'T LIKE,
AND ANOTHER MEMBER CALLING
Mr. RAE A COMMUNIST.
NOW, Mr. HARRIS AND HIS
PLEDGE HAS TO BE SEEN IN
THE BROADER POLITICAL CONTEXT,
AND MY CONCERN HERE
IS WHETHER HE MIGHT HAVE DONE
HIMSELF MORE HARM THAN GOOD.
AS A CLOWN, THE POLLS
GIVE HIM 20 PERCENT
OF THE POPULAR VOTE.
DOES HE RISK ALIENATING
THOSE ONE IN FIVE VOTERS
WHO LIKE HIM AS A FOOL WITHOUT
APPEALING TO THE FOUR
IN FIVE VOTERS WHO NOW
DON'T TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY?

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY, YOUR TURN.

Jane Pepino says I GUESS WHEN
LOOKING AT THAT,
I JUST START OFF BY
CONSIDERING THE SOURCE.
MICHAEL VALPY IS
NOT A JOURNALIST.
HE'S NOT A NEWS
REPORTER.

Steve Paikin says
HE'S A COLUMNIST.

Jane Pepino says HE'S A COLUMNIST.
HE HAS A VERY
DISTINCT BIAS.
IT'S VERY EVIDENT
ALL THE TIME,
THAT IT'S ANTI-CONSERVATIVE
CERTAINLY,
AND SOCIAL DEMOCRAT
BORDERING ON SOCIALIST
THE REMAINDER OF THE TIME.
I THINK UNFORTUNATELY,
BECAUSE HE'S NOT A NEWS
JOURNALIST, HE DOESN'T
MAKE A POINT OF HAVING
HIS FACTS RIGHT AND
DOESN'T CHECK THEM.
IN FACT, IF HE HAD
ACTUALLY SEEN THAT VIDEO,
AND I'VE SPOKEN TO MEDIA
PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN
THE VIDEO, HE WILL LEARN TO
NOT REPEAT THE SHIBBOLETH
THAT IT WAS DOCTORED TO
SHOW RAE STUTTERING.
IN FACT, IT DID NOT.
IT WAS NOT OF
THAT ILK AT ALL.
WITH REGARD TO THE SO-CALLED
FAKE INTERNET LETTER -
BECAUSE I MADE
INQUIRIES INTO THAT.
I TOO WAS VERY UPSET ABOUT
WHAT I READ IN THE MEDIA.
AND WHEN I WAS
GIVEN THE FACTS,
WHAT IN FACT HAPPENED WAS,
THIS LETTER CAME OFF
THE INTERNET AFTER THE
PREMIER HAD ANNOUNCED,
QUITE PROUDLY AND PROPERLY,
THAT HE WAS NOW
ON THE INFORMATION
HIGHWAY.
AND IT WAS
CIRCULATED.
IT CAME TO THE ATTENTION
OF Mr. HARRIS' OFFICE,
WHO QUITE PROPERLY FORWARDED
IT TO THE PREMIER'S OFFICE
AND SAID, DID YOU
KNOW ABOUT THIS?

Steve says THIS IS THAT
DISGUSTING MEMO
THAT CAME OUT
FILLED WITH...

Jane Pepino says EXACTLY.
AND SO THE VERY FIRST
THING THAT WAS DONE WAS
AN OPPORTUNITY GIVEN TO
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE
TO KNOW ABOUT IT, TO TAKE
STEPS ABOUT IT, TO EXPLAIN,
TO CHECK ON THE SECURITY,
TO DO ALL OF THOSE SORTS
OF THINGS, AND IT
WAS JUST DEAD AIR.
PROBABLY JUST A
MANAGEMENT ISSUE WHERE
IT FELL INTO A BLACK
HOLE SOMEWHERE.

Steve says ALTHOUGH, WERE THE
PREMIER HERE, HE'D SAY,
Mr. HARRIS DIDN'T EXACTLY
DO IT IN THE CLASSIEST WAY.
HE BROUGHT IT UP IN THE
LEGISLATURE TO TRY
TO EMBARRASS THE PREMIER.

Jane Pepino says WELL, NOW, HANG ON.

Steve Paikin says DURING
QUESTION PERIOD HE
BROUGHT IT UP.

Jane Pepino says HE HAD 24 HOURS AND IN FACT
IT WENT TO THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE THE DAY
BEFORE AND SAID,
CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT
THIS BECAUSE IF WE DON'T
HEAR ABOUT IT FROM YOU
BEFORE THAT TIME,
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RAISE
IT ON THE QUESTION PERIOD.
AND I AGREE THAT WAS
AN ERROR OF JUDGMENT,
THE WAY IT WAS PRODUCED,
IN MY JUDGMENT,
AND I THINK MIKE
HARRIS AGREES
AND HE'S APOLOGIZED
FOR THAT.

Steve Paikin says YES, HE HAS.

Jane Pepino says AND I THINK THERE WAS SOME
OVERBLOWN STATEMENT THAT
ROADKILL ON THE
INFORMATION NETWORK
WAS PART OF THAT
SAME THING AND -
LITTLE BIT OF FUN
RHETORIC THERE.
WELL, NO, IT WASN'T
QUITE FUN RHETORIC.

Steve Paikin says KIND
OF CROSSED THE LINE.

Jane Pepino says I DON'T THINK IT WAS FUN
RHETORIC AND AS ONE STAFF
MEMBER THAT I TOOK TO TASK
ABOUT IT SAID, HE SAID,
HE HAD A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO
WERE STRUNG OUT AND A LITTLE
PUNCHY BEFORE THE CHRISTMAS
BREAK AND HE SAID,
WE WENT TOO FAR AND
WE'RE SORRY ABOUT IT,
AND MIKE HARRIS
APOLOGIZED AND SAID IT
WOULDN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.
YOU KNOW, IT'S TOO
BAD THAT VALPY
CAN'T GET HIS
FACTS STRAIGHT,
EVEN THOUGH HE'S GOING
TO PUT WHATEVER FACT
HE WANTS IN A
BIASED WAY.

Steve says YOU WANT IN ON THIS?
ALL RIGHT, I SEE
YOUR HAND OVER HERE.
GO AHEAD.

Patrick Gossage says YEAH, I
THINK IT'S A QUESTION
OF STYLE TO SOME EXTENT.
I WORKED FOR A GUY WHO
GAVE THE SALMON-ARM
SALUTE, WHO TOLD PEOPLE
TO MANGE DE LA MARDE AND
WHO WAS VERY OUTSPOKEN.
HIS NAME WAS TRUDEAU.
AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES
HE GOT AWAY WITH IT
AND SOMETIMES HE DIDN'T.
I THINK THAT THE CONTRAST
IN STYLES BETWEEN HARRIS
AND SOMEBODY LIKE LYN McLEOD,
WHO'S VERY CALM
AND VERY REASONABLE AND
SO ON AND SO FORTH,
IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING
IN A CAMPAIGN SITUATION
TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
AND I THINK BOB RAE'S
SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN.
YOU KNOW, I'M SHOCKED,
BUT I'M NOT VERY SHOCKED,
AFTER WORKING FOR
THE GUY I WORKED FOR.

Jane Pepino says WELL, BUT
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT
THE COMPARISON IN LEADERS,
YOU ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT
THE COMPARISON TO PEOPLE
AROUND THE LEADERS.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT WE KNOW -

Hugh Mackenzie says A BUNCH
OF ADOLESCENTS RUNNING WILD.

Jane Pepino says NO, HANG ON.
HANG ON. LET
ME, IF I MAY FINISH,
LET ME PLEASE RECALL THE
EVENT JUST BEFORE THE -
I THINK IT WAS THE TAX
FIGHTERS RALLY OF
MIKE HARRIS' DOWN AT THE
ST. LAWRENCE HALL
IN SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER
OF THIS YEAR,
WHEN IT WAS PROVEN THAT OUT
OF LYN McLEOD'S OFFICE
HAD BEEN FAXES ISSUED TO SAY
IT HAD BEEN CANCELLED
OR THE TIME HAD BEEN CHANGED,
THE DATE HAD BEEN CHANGED.
THE SAME SILLY TRICKS
WE SEE OUT OF GRIT CAMP,
NOT ONLY ELECTIONS BUT IN
THEIR OWN NOMINATIONS.
SO, NO ONE'S IMMUNE.
NO ONE'S IMMUNE.

Steve says YOU WANT THE LAST
20 SECONDS ON THIS?

Patrick Gossage says -
BOB RAE'S IMMUNE.

Hugh Mackenzie says I AGREE WITH THAT.
EVERY POLITICAL
ORGANIZATION HAS PROBLEMS
WITH ADOLESCENTS OVER
RUNNING THEMSELVES AND
ONE OF THE MEASURES OF
MATURITY IS BEING ABLE
TO GET THOSE
THINGS UNDER CONTROL.
AND SO FAR, I THINK
Mr. HARRIS HASN'T
DEMONSTRATED THAT.

Steve says I HAVE TO, WITH
AMPLE MATURITY,
BRING THIS DISCUSSION
TO A CLOSE.
Mr. IRWIN, ONE MORE
TIME, THANKS TO YOU.
THANKS TO YOU,
QUEEN'S PARK WATCHERS,
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
WE WELCOME YOUR COMMENTS
ON THIS PROGRAM,
SO PLEASE WRITE TO
US IF YOU WOULD AT:
4TH READING, BOX 200, STATION Q,
TORONTO, ONTARIO,
M4T 2T1
OR ON THE INTERNET,
WHICH Mr. GOSSAGE IS ON
ALL DAY LONG, NO DOUBT.
FOURTH UNDERSCORE READING AT TVO.ORG
IS THE ADDRESS.
WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE YOU
TODAY WITH A LOOK AT
A TOY SOLDIER EXHIBIT NOW
ON AT QUEEN'S PARK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
[military music]

A video clip of small toy soldiers appears on screen as the credits roll.

Host, Steve Paikin.
Show Producer, Susanna Kelley.
Story Editor, Richard Martyn.
Production Manager, Wally Teska.
Director, Allan Myers.

A production of TVOntaro, copyright The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 1994.

Watch: Fourth Reading V - Circular 14