Transcript: Housing | Jan 06, 1994

(Theme music plays)

A fast clip shows predominantly blue geometrical shapes and protest scenes flashing across the screen.

Allan Myers's voice says TONIGHT, HOUSING HOOPLA.

Against a clip of a Parliament session, a vertical blue slate reads "Housing Hoopla."

A Minister says HOW CAN YOU CONTINUE
TO DEFEND THIS?

Allan says ARE OUR SOCIAL HOUSING
COSTS GOING THROUGH THE ROOF?
AND NASTY NEEDLES.

Against a clip showing a man in his fifties with thinning hair and glasses sitting in Parliament, a vertical blue slate reads "Nasty Needles."

A bald man shouts GET A GRIP!

Allan says HECKLERS POKE FUN UP
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
THIS IS FOURTH READING.

A blue number four forms the "4th Reading" logo at the centre of the screen.

Steve Paikin stands in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his forties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit over a white shirt and a wide gray tie. Behind him, a logo reads "4th Reading."

STEVE says REMEMBER
THE HOUSING CRISIS OF THE LATE 1980'S?
IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND
AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
BUT HAS THE HOUSING CRISIS
DISAPPEARED?
GOOD EVENING, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
WELCOME TO ANOTHER EDITION OF
"FOURTH READING."
WHAT'S GOING ON OUT THERE?
VACANCY RATES ARE WAY UP.
RENTS AND INTEREST RATES ARE PLUNGING.
EVEN THE NDP IN SASKATCHEWAN
HAS ABOLISHED RENT CONTROLS.
LANDLORDS HERE ARE ATTACKING
THEM, AND THE NON-PROFIT
HOUSING COMMUNITY WITH RENEWED VIGOR.
IN A MOMENT, ONTARIO'S HOUSING
MINISTER WILL JOIN US AND TELL
US WHETHER WE NEED TO SPEND
HALF A BILLION DOLLARS
ON NON-PROFIT HOUSING WHEN
MANY SAY THE HOUSING SUPPLY
CRISIS IS OVER.
BUT FIRST, SOME BACKGROUND.

A large fork-lift truck moves toward an apartment complex under construction. As Steve speaks, workmen are busy assembling the building.
(Engine roaring)

Steve continues THIS IS ONE OF THE NEWEST
JEWELS IN ONTARIO'S NON-PROFIT
HOUSING CROWN.
BY NEXT JULY, GOWER PARK PLACE
WILL BE ONE OF THE BEST HOMES
IN TORONTO FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
HAVING TROUBLE FINDING
AN AFFORDABLE PLACE TO LIVE.
THE UNITS IN THIS PROJECT WILL
BE DIVIDED UP LIKE THIS...
75 PERCENT WILL BE FOR PEOPLE WHO
NEED HELP PAYING THE RENT.
THOSE PEOPLE WILL PAY 25 PERCENT OF THEIR
INCOME TOWARDS THEIR RENT. TAXPAYERS
WILL SUBSIDIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THAT AMOUNT AND THE MARKET PRICE.
25 PERCENT OF THE UNITS WILL BE
FOR SENIORS. 25 PERCENT OF THE RESIDENTS
WILL PAY FULL MARKET PRICE, AND TEN
UNITS WILL BE SPECIALLY CONSTRUCTED FOR THE DISABLED.
IT'S THIS MIX OF PEOPLE THAT HOUSING
ACTIVISTS SAY IS THE SECRET TO ITS SUCCESS.

A blond man in his sixties wearing a round-necked ski sweater speaks for the camera. A caption reads "Bill Morris, Co-op Housing Association."

Bill says IT'S NOT AN EXERCISE IN SHOVELING MONEY AT PEOPLE.
WHAT WE'RE ABLE TO DO IS BUILD HOUSING BASED ON THE KIND OF
PARTNERSHIP THAT WE PUT TOGETHER BETWEEN THE PRIVATE SECTOR,
PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY AND GOVERNMENT ACTING AS A FACILITATOR.

A sign on a white wall reads "The Fair Rental Policy Organization of Ontario."

Steve continues BUT OTHERS, SUCH AS THE FAIR RENTAL POLICY
ORGANIZATION OF ONTARIO DON'T LIKE THE NDP GOVERNMENT'S EMPHASIS ON SOCIAL HOUSING. THEY LIKEN IT TO A HOUSE OF CARDS THAT'S ABOUT TO COME TUMBLING DOWN. (A card house appears on a desk)

A clean-shaven man in his forties with a shock of thinning blond hair appears. A caption reads "Phil Dewan, Fair Rental policy Organization."

Phil stands with Steve and says IF A FAMILY NEEDS TWO, THREE OR FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS IN ASSISTANCE IN ORDER TO LIVE AND PAY THEIR RENT, DOES THAT MAKE MORE SENSE THAN GOING OUT AND SPENDING FIFTEEN HUNDRED OR TWO THOUSAND, OR IN THIS CASE THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS TO BUILD A NEW BUILDING? i DON'T THINK IT DOES.

Steve continues PHIL DEWAN REPRESENTS PRIVATE
LANDLORDS WHO PREFER ANOTHER
SOLUTION. IT'S CALLED SHELTER ALLOWANCES.
INSTEAD OF SPENDING HUNDREDS
OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON NEW
HOUSING, DEWAN SAYS
GOVERNMENTS COULD SPEND
A FRACTION OF THAT AMOUNT
BY HELPING PEOPLE PAY
THEIR RENTS IN EXISTING VACANT
APARTMENTS.

In Parliament, a Member reads from a newspaper and says
HERE WE HAVE COXWELL
AND QUEEN, LUXURY 2-BEDROOM
SKYLIGHT AVAILABLE NOVEMBER
1ST FOR $780 PER MONTH.

Steve continues THAT'S AN APPROACH THE
PROVINCIAL TORIES LIKE.
THEY HAVE ASKED THE HOUSING
MINISTER TO PUT A MORATORIUM
ON ANY FUTURE
SOCIAL HOUSING CONSTRUCTION.

A caption reads "Mike Harris, Ontario PC Leader."

Harris says HOW CAN YOU CONTINUE
TO DEFEND THE POLICY?
EVEN THOUGH IT WAS STARTED
BY ANOTHER GOVERNMENT, YOU'RE
CARRYING IT ON.
HOW CAN YOU CONTINUE TO DEFEND
THIS, THAT'S COSTING
THE TAXPAYERS TWICE AS MUCH MONEY?
IT'S SIMPLY GIVING SHELTER
SUBSIDIES TO THOSE ON WAITING
LISTS INTO EXISTING VACANT
UNITS HERE IN TORONTO.

STEVE says WHEN
THE LIBERALS WERE IN POWER
IN THE LATE 1980'S,
THEY INTRODUCED THE MOST
AMBITIOUS SOCIAL HOUSING
CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM EVER, BUT NOW EVEN
THEY ARE ECHOING THE TORIES'
CALL FOR A HALT.
OUT OF CONCERNS OVER COSTS.

A female Liberal Member, in her sixties with graying blond hair in a bob, addresses Parliament.

The Ontario Liberal Leader, Lyn McLeod says
WE BELIEVE THERE HAS TO BE
A MORATORIUM ON FURTHER
CONSTRUCTION, UNTIL
THERE CAN BE REVIEW OF THE
CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM, AND UNTIL
WE CAN LOOK AT WHAT IS
THE BEST BALANCE BETWEEN
SUBSIDY ALLOWANCE, RENT
SUBSIDY AND THE ACTUAL
CONSTRUCTION OF UNITS.

Bill says THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT
DEALING WITH HOUSING IS
AN EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION.
THERE IS NO CHEAP SOLUTION.
I'M VERY SUSPICIOUS OF THOSE
THAT SAY THAT THERE'S
A MAGICAL CHEAP SOLUTION
BECAUSE OUR EXPERIENCE IS THAT
THERE REALLY ISN'T.
WHAT I, I GUESS, TAKE ISSUE
WITH IS THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN
REPLACE NON-PROFIT AND CO-OP
HOUSING WITH SHELTER
ALLOWANCES.
YOU SIMPLY DON'T GET THE SAME
BENEFIT, AND THE CHIEF BENEFIT
THAT YOU WON'T GET IS
YOU WON'T GET ANY NEW HOUSING BUILT.

Steve continues BUT LANDLORDS SAY SUPPLY
ISN'T THE PROBLEM;
AFFORDABILITY IS.

Phil says FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
ON SOCIAL ASSISTANCE, WE HAVE
A VERY LARGE-SCALE SHELTER
PROGRAM, AND IT'S HELPED ENORMOUSLY
DURING THIS RECESSION.
TO KEEP HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS
OF ONTARIO FAMILIES FROM
FALLING INTO COMPLETE DESPERATION.
OUR ARGUMENT IS SIMPLY THAT
THAT SAME PRINCIPLE SHOULD BE
EXTENDED TO THE WORKING POOR
WHO ARE NOW SHUT OUT
OF THE PROGRAM.

A blue slate titled "Fact File" lists information. Steve reads off the slate.

STEVE says LET'S LOOK
AT SOME OF THE HARD FACTS
ABOUT SOCIAL PROGRAM
IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT SAYS
IT IS SPENDING 575 MILLION DOLLARS ON
NON-PROFIT HOUSING THIS YEAR.
THAT IS ABOUT 15 PERCENT OF WHAT
THE PROVINCE SPENDS ON HOUSING.
THE PROVINCE ALSO SPENDS 2.2
BILLION DOLLARS ON SHELTER
ALLOWANCES, AND THAT'S
ABOUT 62 PERCENT OF THE MONEY
THE GOVERNMENT SPENDS ON HOUSING.
NOW, HERE TO ANSWER
OUR QUESTIONS IN THIS DEBATE
IS ONTARIO'S MINISTER
OF HOUSING, EVELYN GIGANTES.
WELCOME.

THE HONORABLE EVELYN GIGANTES says THANK YOU.

A vertical blue slate captioned "Sally Barnes" shows a photo of a woman in her fifties with red hair in a bob. Steve reads off it.
Another vertical slate captioned "Ian Scott" shows a man in his sixties with thinning gray hair. Another, captioned "Janet Solberg" shows a woman in her forties with blond hair in a bob.

STEVE says LET ME
INTRODUCE OUR POLITICAL PANEL HERE.
I KNOW YOU KNOW THEM ALL.
WELCOME BACK TO ONE AND ALL.
SALLY BARNES, COMMUNICATIONS
CONSULTANT AND COLUMNIST.
SALLY USED TO BE AN ADVISOR
TO CONSERVATIVE PREMIERS BILL
DAVIS AND FRANK MILLER.
IAN SCOTT PRACTICES LAW THESE DAYS.
HE WAS DAVID PETERSON'S
ATTORNEY GENERAL
DURING THE LIBERAL DAYS.
AND JANET SOLBERG IS
A CONSULTANT, RESEARCHER,
AND FORMER PRESIDENT
OF THE ONTARIO NDP.

With the panel, Steve addresses Evelyn and says
OKAY, LET ME RAISE THE MAJOR
CRITICISM THAT PEOPLE HAVE
OF YOUR GOVERNMENT TODAY,
WHICH IS THAT YOU'VE LOST THIS
BALANCE, THE BALANCE BETWEEN
WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING
WITH SHELTER ALLOWANCES
AND BUILDING NEW NON-PROFIT HOUSING.
THE LANDLORDS SAY YOU'RE SO
EYE DELOGICALLY SKEWERED
TOWARDS NON-PROFIT THAT THEY
CAN'T DEAL WITH YOU ANYMORE.
ARE THEY RIGHT?
HAVE YOU MISSED UP
IN THE BALANCE?

A caption reads "Evelyn Gigantes, Minister of Housing."

EVELYN says
THE LANDLORDS DO A LOT
OF BUSINESS WITH GOVERNMENT,
AS YOU POINTED OUT EARLIER.
IN FACT, A LARGE PROPORTION
OF PEOPLE WHO RENT
IN THE PRIVATE MARKET ARE
PAYING THEIR RENTS WITH SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE DOLLARS.

STEVE says THESE ARE
VERY LOW-INCOME PEOPLE,
FOR THE MOST PART.

EVELYN says YES, BUT YOU KNOW THERE ARE
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF THEM,
CURRENTLY, IN THAT PRIVATE
RENTAL MARKET.
IN FACT, OUR CALCULATIONS
INDICATE THAT IN THE ONTARIO
PRIVATE RENTAL MARKET, FULLY
37 PERCENT OF THE HOUSEHOLDS WHO ARE
RENTING ARE PAYING THEIR RENT
WITH SOCIAL ASSISTANCE DOLLARS.

STEVE says YOU SEEM
TO BALANCE -- YOU THINK IT
BALANCES OKAY, BASICALLY?

EVELYN says WELL, BALANCE.
IF THERE'S AN OVERBALANCE,
IT'S CERTAINLY ON THE SIDE
OF PROVIDING RENT MONEY
TO LANDLORDS, TO PRIVATE
LANDLORDS, BY WAY OF SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE.
WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE
A SITUATION, OF COURSE, WHERE
THERE WEREN'T SO MANY PEOPLE
ON SOCIAL ASSISTANCE
AND SO MUCH OF THE PRIVATE
RENTAL MARKET WASN'T DEPENDENT
ON PROVINCIAL FUNDING.

STEVE says JUST BEFORE
WE GET THE PANEL IN HERE,
LET'S JUST BE CLEAR THAT
EVERYBODY IS TALKING THE SAME LANGUAGE.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT NON-PROFIT
HOUSING, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITY GROUPS
WITH WHICH PRIVATE DEVELOPERS BUILD
PRETTY TERRIFIC NEW HOUSING UNITS.
PUBLIC HOUSING, SO TO SPEAK,
IS THE STUFF THAT GOVERNMENTS
BUILT, THAT ISN'T BEING BUILT
ANY MORE.

Evelyn says THAT'S RIGHT, THE PUBLIC
HOUSING, SO-CALLED, IS RUN
BY ONTARIO HOUSING
CORPORATION.
MOST OF IT WAS BUILT
IN THE '60'S AND '70'S.
AND IT IS A LARGE STOCK
OF RELATIVELY GOOD
ACCOMMODATION, SOME BETTER
THAN OTHERS, IN CITIES ACROSS
THE PROVINCE, ABOUT 200,000
UNITS, AND IT PROVIDES AT THIS
STAGE, BECAUSE THE MORTGAGES
ARE PAID OFF, IT PROVIDES
THE CHEAPEST SOURCE OF HOUSING
ASSISTANCE THAT GOVERNMENT CAN
PROVIDE FOR PEOPLE.

Addressing the panel, STEVE says SHOULD SHE BE
TAKING ANOTHER LOOK AT SHELTER
ALLOWANCES, WHICH ON THE FACE
OF IT SEEM CHEAPER THAN
NON-PROFIT HOUSING?
EVERYBODY AGREES NON-PROFIT
HOUSING IS REALLY EXPENSIVE,
BUT REALLY GOOD.

Sally says MS GIGANTES AND I AREN'T
GOING TO AGREE TONIGHT.
I BELIEVE IN MARKET FORCES
AND YOU DON'T.
IT'S AN IDEOLOGY...

Evelyn says HOW DO YOU KNOW I DON'T?

SALLY says LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
I WATCH QUESTION PERIOD,
AND I'VE KNOWN YOU
FOR A LONG TIME
IN OPPOSITION, AND I HAVE
NEVER SEEN ANYBODY LOOK
SO MISERABLE AS YOU DO
IN YOUR ROLE AS CABINET
MINISTER.
YOU LOOK SO UNHAPPY.

EVELYN says I LOOK
THAT WAY WHEN I'M PLAYING
THE PIANO TOO.

Sally says WELL, THEN YOU SHOULD BE
BACK PLAYING THE PIANO, IN MY
HUMBLE OPINION, WITH ALL DUE
RESPECT.

Steve says I THINK SHE'S VERY QUIET NOW.
I THINK SHE'S ON PROZAC. (Ian grins)
(Laughter)

SALLY says THAT'S WHAT
I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST SUBDUED,
AND I CAN ONLY GUESS THAT IT
MUST BOTHER YOU WHEN I SEE
YOU PUTTING MILLIONS,
BILLIONS, INTO HOUSING, WHEN
YOU KNOW WE HAVE GOT ALREADY
SUCH HIGH VACANCY RATES, WHEN
THAT MONEY SHOULD BE GOING
INTO HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS
AND CHILDREN'S SERVICES.
IS THAT WHAT'S MAKING
YOU SO GLUM?

EVELYN says OKAY, LET
ME EXPLAIN A FEW FACTS
ABOUT THE MARKET, WHICH ARE REAL.
ONE IS THAT A VERY LARGE
PERCENTAGE OF THE PRIVATE
RENTAL MARKET IS NOW PAID FOR,
ESSENTIALLY, THROUGH SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE DOLLARS.
THAT'S NUMBER 1.
NUMBER 2, WHEN WE PUT MONEY
INTO NON-PROFIT HOUSING, WHAT
WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE
TRANSFERRING ONE ACCOUNT
TO ANOTHER BECAUSE WE'RE
PAYING IN THE MINISTRY
OF HOUSING ACCOUNTS FOR MONIES,
FOR COSTS IN HOUSING THAT
WE WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE TO PAY
TO PRIVATE RENTAL LANDLORDS,
THROUGH SOCIAL ASSISTANCE.
ABOUT 1/3 OF WHAT WE SPEND
IN THE MINISTRY OF HOUSING
WOULD OTHERWISE,
IF THE NON-PROFIT HOUSING
WEREN'T THERE, WOULD GET...

STEVE says SO WE'RE
SPENDING ON NON-PROFIT
HOUSING, WHAT?

Evelyn continues IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SPENT
IN THE SOCIAL ASSISTANCE
ACCOUNTS OF COMMUNITY
AND SOCIAL SERVICES.
WE PROVIDE THE TOP-UP THAT
ALLOWS RENT GEARED TO INCOME
ACCOMMODATION IN NON-PROFIT HOUSING.
ON AN ANNUAL BASIS WE'RE
RUNNING AT ABOUT 600, 700
MILLION DOLLARS,
AS YOU INDICATED.
THAT'S SUBSIDIES, RIGHT.
BUT WHAT IT DOES IS IT
PROVIDES THE SUBSIDY THAT
ALLOWS PEOPLE TO LIVE
IN HOUSING WHICH HAS BEEN
FINANCED -- WE DON'T ACTUALLY
BUY HOUSING.
WE ARRANGE FOR A GUARANTEE
FOR PRIVATE MARKET MORTGAGERS
TO PROVIDE THE FINANCING
FOR NON-PROFIT HOUSING GROUPS
THAT TAKE ON THE SPONSORSHIP
OF NON-PROFIT HOUSING, CO-OP,
OR PRIVATE NON-PROFIT
OR MUNICIPAL NON-PROFIT.
AND OUR COSTS, MOST
OF OUR COSTS ARE PAID
THROUGH THIS ACCOUNTING LINE
WHICH ALSO PICKS UP A THIRD
OF WHAT -- A THIRD OF THAT
WOULD OTHERWISE GET SPENT
IN THE SOCIAL ASSISTANCE ACCOUNT.

STEVE says I'VE GOT
TO ASK YOU THIS.
YOUR PARTY BROUGHT IN,
AS WE SAW ON THE BACKGROUND
PEACE, THE MOST AMBITIOUS, AND
BY ALL ACCOUNTS A VERY HIGHLY
PRAISED NON-PROFIT HOUSING PROGRAM.

EVELYN says WE
MADE THEM DO IT IN '85.

STEVE says NOW THE
LIBERAL PARTY WANTS A
MORATORIUM ON ANY MORE OF THIS.

Ian says I WAS LONG COMMITTED TO
NON-PROFIT HOUSING EVEN BEFORE
I KNEW WHO EVELYN GIGANTES WAS.
BUT THE QUESTION I HAVE...

STEVE says DOES THAT
MAKE SENSE TO YOU, THAT
THE LIBERAL PARTY, WHICH WAS
THE CHAMPION OF NON-PROFIT
HOUSING, DOESN'T WANT ANY MORE BUILT?

IAN says I THINK THAT
THERE IS LOTS OF ROOM AT LOOKING
AT GOOD OLD PROGRAMS, AGAIN
IN THE LIGHT OF NEW CIRCUMSTANCES,
AND I THINK -- I'M SURE
THE MINISTER AGREES
WITH THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT
I WOULD HOPE IS ONGOING
IN THE MINISTRY.
THE MINISTER MADE
AN OBSERVATION THAT I WOULD
LIKE TO ASK HER ABOUT.
SHE POINTED OUT THAT
A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE DOLLARS IS PAID
TO LANDLORDS, TO PRIVATE
SECTOR LANDLORDS, AND SORT
OF IMPLIED THAT THAT WAS BAD,
AND THEN WENT ON TO SAY THAT
LARGE SUBSIDIES ARE PAID
TO NON-PROFIT HOUSING
CORPORATIONS, AS IF THAT WAS GOOD.

EVELYN says I'M
NOT SAYING IT'S BAD.
I'M SAYING...

IAN says AREN'T
THEY THE SAME THING?

EVELYN says NO,
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU PROVIDE A
GUARANTEE THAT ALLOWS PRIVATE
MORTGAGERS TO DEVELOP
NON-PROFIT HOUSING, AND THEN
YOU'RE PAYING THE SUBSIDY,
WHAT YOU'VE DONE -- AND THIS
IS WHY YOU'VE ALWAYS SUPPORTED
NON-PROFIT HOUSING.

Ian says REMIND ME.

EVELYN says WHAT
YOU'VE DONE IS TAKEN A NEW
SUPPLY OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING
THAT EXISTS IN
THE COMMUNITY FOR THE USE
OF THE COMMUNITY DECADE AFTER DECADE.
IF I PAY MONEY AS A TAXPAYER
THAT ALLOWS SOMEBODY TO PAY
THEIR RENT THROUGH SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE, THAT DOESN'T
CREATE ANY MORE NEW HOUSING,
AND WE NEED NEW AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

Steve says THE POINT IS DO WE NEED MORE NEW HOUSING
ON THE MARKET TODAY, GIVEN THE VACANCY RATE?

EVELYN says LET
ME EXPLAIN THE VACANCY RATE,
AND THIS IS THE MARKET THAT
YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT,
AND I KNOW YOU'RE INTERESTED
IN, AS AM I.
AT THE UPPER END OF THE RENTAL
MARKET, THE PRIVATE RENTAL
MARKET, THERE ARE VACANCIES.
AND IN FACT WE'RE SEEING RENTS
DROPPING AT THE UPPER END
OF THE RENTAL MARKET.
THAT IS NOT TRUE
AT THE AFFORDABLE END
OF THE RENTAL MARKET, WHERE
IN FACT THE APPLICATIONS

- THE GUIDELINE INCREASES,
AND THE APPLICATIONS FOR
ABOVE-GUIDELINE INCREASES
UNDER THE OLD
RENT CONTROL ACT HAVE GONE
ON YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR,
AND IT'S A VERY TIGHT MARKET
AT THE LOW END.

Sally says COULD I JUST GIVE
AN EXAMPLE HERE IN TORONTO
WHERE ON MY STREET IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO, THERE IS NOT A HOUSE
ON MY STREET, I WOULD BE
WILLING TO BET, THAT DOESN'T
HAVE AT LEAST ONE EMPTY
SEMI-AFFORDABLE APARTMENT
RIGHT NOW.
AND IT'S REALLY HARD TO TELL
THOSE ORDINARY HARD-WORKING
TAXPAYERS WHY THEIR APARTMENTS
ARE GOING EMPTY WHILE, 2
BLOCKS AWAY, YOU PEOPLE HAVE
JUST SUBSIDIZED TO
MULTI-MILLIONS OF DOLLARS
A BRAND NEW APARTMENT
BUILDING. EXPLAIN IT.

Evelyn says WELL, YOU COULD HELP
BY EXPLAINING TO THEM THAT
IN 1992-93, WE SPENT
2.5 BILLION DOLLARS PAYING PRIVATE LANDLORDS THEIR RENT.

Sally says IT'S NOT HELPING OUR PEOPLE, WE'RE EMPTY.

Evelyn says OF COURSE IT HELPS
YOU IMAGINE WHAT HAPPENS
TO THE PRIVATE RENTAL MARKET
IF THOSE SOCIAL ASSISTANCE
DOLLARS WEREN'T THERE.
I MEAN, THE BOTTOM WOULD JUST
DROP OUT OF IT.
BUT --

Sally says BUT I'M NOT SAYING THAT
THE PROBLEM IS NOT LACK OF
HOUSING. IT'S LACK OF MONEY.

Evelyn says LET'S LOOK AT BALANCE.
LET US LOOK AT BALANCE.
WE SPENT LAST YEAR 600
MILLION DOLLARS
FOR THE SUBSIDIES
IN NON-PROFIT HOUSING.
AND FOR THAT WE GENERATED.
NEW AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THE
COMMUNITY.
2.5 BILLION DOLLARS JUST WENT TO PAY
THE RENTS ON EXISTING HOUSING.

Janet says IT'S A QUESTION OF BALANCE
HERE. I MEAN, THE FIGURES SPEAK
FOR THEMSELVES.

Sally says TO YOU, MAYBE.
NOT TO ME.

Janet continues SUBSIDIES TO PRIVATE
LANDLORDS, WHICH SUBSIDIZE
PEOPLE'S RENT, ARE FOUR TIMES
THE KINDS OF SUBSIDIES WE GAVE
TO CO-OP OWNERS.

Sally says AND PEOPLE ARE PAYING TAXES
ON THOSE.

Janet continues WE SAW WHAT COOP HOUSING
DOES. NUMBER ONE, IT PROVIDES
AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO DISABLED PEOPLE.
SHOW ME A LANDLORD THAT'S
PREPARED TO DO THAT.
AND THE PEOPLE ON THE STREET.
THAT'S THE KIND OF HOUSING
WE WANT.

IAN says THESE FIGURES WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK
FOR THEMSELVES.
LET ME ASK AN ALLIED QUESTION.
I UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT WHAT
YOU SAY ABOUT THE VACANCY
RATES BEING AT THE TOP END.
BUT THE REALITY IS THAT
THE VACANCY RATE IS MOVING
DOWN THROUGH THE SYSTEM.
NOT AS FAST AS WE WOULD LIKE,
PERHAPS, BUT IT'S MOVING DOWN.
WHAT VACANCY RATE DO YOU THINK
HAS TO BE ACHIEVED
AT THE MEDIAN HOUSING LEVEL
BEFORE YOU CAN EASE YOURSELF
OUT OF RENT CONTROLS?

EVELYN says
IN TORONTO CURRENTLY,
AND IN THE TORONTO AREA, WE'RE
LOOKING AT ABOUT 2 PERCENT,
AND IN THE AREA I COME FROM,
OTTAWA AREA, IT'S LOWER THAN THAT.
IN SUDBURY, IT'S LOW.
THERE ARE AREAS IN WHICH
THE VACANCY RATE HAS GONE UP
AROUND 5, 6 PERCENT.
THOSE ARE AREAS LIKE
ST. CATHARINE'S AND OSHAWA,
AREAS LIKE THAT WHERE THERE'S
BEEN HUGE UNEMPLOYMENT
AND PEOPLE HAVE DOUBLED UP.
WE KNOW THAT IF THIS ECONOMY
STARTS MOVING FORWARD AGAIN,
THE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T
MOVED OUT OF HOME, OR MAY HAVE
RETURNED TO HOME, ARE GOING
TO BE LOOKING FOR APARTMENTS.
THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE DOUBLED
UP ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING
FOR APARTMENTS.
YOU KNOW, WE ALL KNOW
THE CASES.

Ian says YOUR PARTY, I THINK, EVEN,
AND CERTAINLY MINE, HAVE
ALWAYS SAID THAT THE RENT
CONTROL IS A RESPONSE
TO A VERY LOW VACANCY RATE.

EVELYN says YES.

Ian says AND WHAT I'M ASKING IS WHAT
IS THE VACANCY RATE THAT WILL
MOVE THE NDP OFF RENT CONTROL.

EVELYN says
THE VACANCY RATE, I THINK, HAS
TO BE LOOKED AT IN TERMS
OF THE LOWER END TOO.

Ian says I AGREE, BUT WHAT IS
THE VACANCY RATE?

Evelyn says IT IS NOT FAIR TO SAY
IF WE'VE GOT A VACANCY RATE
OF 6 PERCENT FOR A 1,000 DOLLAR A MONTH
APARTMENT...

Ian says THE FIGURE WILL SPEAK
FOR ITSELF.

Janet says NO, BECAUSE IT'S THE MAGIC
BECAUSE IT'S THE MAGIC OF THE
MARKETPLACE.

STEVE says WOULD YOU FAVOUR
AN ELIMINATION OF RENT
CONTROLS IN SOME WAY, SHAPE
OR FORM?

IAN says WE LOOKED
SERIOUSLY...
WE DIDN'T DO IT,
BUT WE LOOKED SERIOUSLY
AT WHETHER YOU COULD ESTABLISH
A VACANCY RATE IN A REGION
AS OPPOSED TO THE PROVINCE
AS A WHOLE, WHICH WOULD PERMIT
YOU TO MOVE AWAY.
THERE ARE GREAT DANGERS
IN DOING THAT BECAUSE
YOU ARTIFICIALLY SKEW RENTS ELSEWHERE.
BUT WE WERE LOOKING AT THAT,
BUT WE WERE UNABLE TO DO IT.

Evelyn says I'LL TELL YOU WHAT WE'RE
LOOKING AT, WHICH IS WORTH
LOOKING AT, WHICH IS WHETHER
SHELTER ALLOWANCES, AS A COMPONENT OF SOCIAL
ASSISTANCE, SHOULD HAVE A
REGIONAL VARIATION.
BECAUSE THAT'S A HUGE PART OF THE MARKET,

IAN says THAT'S A
PANDORA'S BOX.

EVELYN says WELL,
IT IS A PANDORA'S BOX.
BUT I THINK IT HAS TO BE LOOKED AT.

STEVE says WE'VE GOT
TO LOOK AT A CLIP HERE.
BILL MORRIS, YOUR FRIEND
FROM THE CO-OP HOUSING
ASSOCIATION OF ONTARIO.
I SHOULDN'T SAY "YOUR FRIEND."
BECAUSE HE'S NOT REAL HAPPY
WITH YOU THESE DAYS.
HE'S REALLY UPSET
WITH YOU GUYS, AS WE'LL SEE
IN THE PIECE OF TAPE,
BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT
FULFILLING YOUR COMMITMENTS AS
LAID OUT IN THE PREVIOUS
ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
ALLAN, LET'S HEAR FROM BILL MORRIS.

Bill Morris's face appears alongside a vertical blue slate that reads "Broken Promises."

Bill says I DEARLY WISH THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT WAS ABLE TO DELIVER
ON ITS PROMISES TO A GREATER
EXTENT THAN IT'S BEEN ABLE TO DO.

Steve says WHICH IS, WHAT, 30,000
NON-PROFIT UNITS?

Bill says THAT'S RIGHT.
AND WE'RE NEARLY COMING UP
TO THE 2-YEAR MARK, FROM WHEN
THIS GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED IN
THE BUDGET THE "HOMES NOW."
PROGRAM. LESS THAN
1,000 OF THOSE UNITS ARE
IN THE STAGE OF CONSTRUCTION.
AND THAT'S A VERY BIG PROBLEM.
I HAVEN'T SEEN THE KIND
OF LEADERSHIP THAT I WOULD
LIKE TO SEE.

EVELYN says WELL,
THAT'S A VERY SHORTSIGHTED
VIEW, I WOULD SUGGEST.
SINCE OUR ELECTION, OCTOBER
1990, WE HAVE ALLOCATED
OVER 40,000 UNITS
OF NON-PROFIT HOUSING.

STEVE says 30,000 WERE HIS.

EVELYN says
WELL, THOSE WERE
ANNOUNCEMENTS.
WE FOLLOWED THROUGH ON THEM.
YOU REMEMBER, HE WAS OPERATING
IN GOOD TIMES.
WE HAVE HAD TO MAKE SOME VERY TOUGH...

Steve says YOU PROMISED 20,000. YOU'VE
GOT A THOUSAND THROUGH
THE SYSTEM NOW.

EVELYN says
NO, NO, NO, NO.
THAT'S A PROGRAM CALLED "JOBS
ONTARIO HOMES."
BEFORE JOBS ONTARIO HOMES WAS
ANNOUNCED, WE UNDERTOOK
COMMITMENTS AND ALLOCATED
OVER 40,000 UNITS
OF NON-PROFIT HOUSING.
SO IF BILL MORRIS IS NOT
HAPPY, HE'S FORGETTING
THE LAST 3 YEARS OF HISTORY.

Steve says AM I WRONG?
WEREN'T THOUSANDS OF THOSE
INTRODUCED BY THE LIBERALS?

EVELYN says NO,
THEY WEREN'T.
THEY WERE PROMISED
BY THE LIBERALS.
5,000 WERE DELIVERED IN TERMS
OF ALLOCATIONS, BY THE TIME
WE CAME INTO OFFICE.

Steve says MY POINT IS THEY GOT THEM GOING.

Ian says 30,000 OF THOSE...

EVELYN says OH,
YOU ANNOUNCED THEM, SURE,
BUT WE ACTUALLY WENT AHEAD
AND COMMITTED THE PROGRAM
MONIES TO THEM.

Sally says BUT SHOULDN'T WE BE
POINTING OUT THERE AREN'T BAD
GUYS AND GOOD GUYS IN THIS?
IT WAS THE TORIES WHO BROUGHT
IN RENT CONTROL IN THE 1975 BECAUSE...

EVELYN says THAT
WAS MICHAEL CASSIDY.

Sally says YOU PEOPLE HAVE MADE
EVERYBODY DO SO MUCH,
AND WE HAVE GOT A DEFICIT
OF 500 BILLION DOLLARS IN THIS COUNTRY.
BUT TO REPEAT, IN '75, THERE
WAS OUTSTANDING RENT GOUGING.
THERE WERE RENTAL SHORTAGES,
AND WE NEEDED -- WE NEEDED
RENT CONTROLS.

STEVE says AS A
TEMPORARY MEASURE, I THINK I
REMEMBER IT.

Sally says AND I THINK YOU PEOPLE GOT
INTO SOCIAL HOUSING THE WAY
YOU DID IN '85 TO '90 BECAUSE
AT THAT POINT WE NEEDED IT.

Janet says THIS IS THE MAGIC
OF THE MARKETPLACE, YOU KEEP
ON TELLING ME.
WE'LL SOLVE ALL OUR HOUSING
PROBLEMS, SALLY, BUT LOOK WHAT
IT'S COST.

Sally says MY POINT IS WE HAVE DONE
THOSE THINGS,
AND NOW IT'S TIME TO BE
GROWN UP AND MATURE AND SAY,
OK, WE DID THOSE THINGS
AND WE NEEDED THEM.
WE HAVE GONE ON NOW.
WE HAVE HIGH VACANCY RATES.
WE DON'T NEED TO KEEP ON DOING THIS.
WE NEED TO GET OUT OF...

Evelyn says NO, I DISAGREE.

Sally continues WE NEED TO GET OUT OF RENT
CONTROL.

Evelyn says WE CAN ALSO TELL
YOU HOW MANY VACANCIES THERE
ARE IN APARTMENT UNITS AT 400
FOR A BACHELOR IN WHICH TOWNS,
AND THOSE ARE FACTS THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT.

Sally says IF THERE'S A MARKET THERE
THE PRIVATE SECTOR WILL CREATE JOBS.
THEY WILL PAY TAXES.
THEY WILL BUILD THE HOUSING.
PUT THE MONEY IN...

EVELYN says RENT
CONTROL IS NOT THE BUGABOO
THAT YOU CONSERVATIVES MAKE IT
OUT TO BE.

SALLY says ADMIT THAT
TIMES HAVE CHANGED, AND GET
OUT OF IT.
LET'S GET ON WITH IT AND MAKE
BETTER USE OF PUBLIC DOLLARS.

EVELYN says NO,
AT THE LOW END OF THE MARKET,
IT IS A SINGULARLY IMPORTANT
PROTECTION FOR A CONTINUING AFFORDABLE
SUPPLY OF RENTAL HOUSING.

STEVE says YOU'VE RAISED
THE ISSUE OF AFFORDABILITY AND EXPENSE.
NOW I WANT TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP
HERE FROM SOMEBODY
WHO USED TO BE A BIG SHOT
IN THE HOUSING BUSINESS IN
THIS PROVINCE, PATTI STAR.
DO YOU REMEMBER HER?
SHE USED TO BE QUITE A SHOOTER
WITH THE BIG DEVELOPERS, AND
GETTING NON-PROFIT HOUSING GOING.
HER NAME IS ON SOME PRETTY GOOD STUFF.
ANYWAY, WE INTERVIEWED HER RECENTLY.
AND ONE QUESTION THAT
SHE WANTED TO KNOW WAS WHY IT'S
SO EXPENSIVE, AND THE AUDITOR
HAS MADE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS
TOO, BRINGING NON-PROFIT
HOUSING TO MARKET THESE DAYS.
ALLAN, DO WE HAVE THE PATTI
STAR CLIP ROLLED AND READY
TO GO? LET'S PLAY IT.

A vertical blue slate reads "Price Hike." In the clip, a woman with dark curly hair wearing a white dress speaks. A caption reads "Patti Starr, Author -- "Tempting Fate."

Patti says HOW THE UNITS THAT SHOULD
BE COSTING WHAT'S KNOWN AS...
USED TO BE THE MAXIMUM UNIT
PRICE, AROUND 150,000 DOLLARS A UNIT,
NOW COST 350,000 DOLLARS A UNIT.
NOW, GIVE ME A BREAK.
EVEN A DING-DONG CAN FIGURE
OUT THAT THE COST ISN'T THAT.
THEY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THAT
THERE HAS TO BE SOME CREATIVE
BUDGETING, WHICH HAPPENS TO BE
MY EXPERTISE.
NOW, IF BOB RAE WOULD LIKE ME
TO COME AND TAKE A LOOK AT HOW
THEY ARE FIXING UP
THE NUMBERS TO GET THE MONEY,
I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SHOW IT TO HIM.
BUT I SUSPECT WHAT THEY HAVE
DONE IS INCREASED LAND VALUES
TO WHAT THEY ARE.

STEVE says TRUE OR FALSE?

EVELYN says OH, NO.
JUST SO OFF BASE.
THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PROJECTS,
AND THEY WERE PROJECTS THAT
WERE BEGUN MAINLY
DURING THE LIBERAL ERA,
AND THEY ARE UNDERSTANDABLE
FROM -- YOU KNOW, I CAN SAY
THIS AS A CRITIC OF WHAT HAS
HAPPENED BEFORE.
THEY ARE UNDERSTANDABLE.
LAND PRICES WERE HIGH.
CONSTRUCTION COSTS WERE HIGH.
INTEREST RATES WERE UNBEARABLE.
THE COSTS HAVE COME RIGHT
DOWN, AND THE AVERAGE COST
OF A NEW UNIT COMING
THROUGH THE JOBS ONTARIO HOMES
PROGRAM THESE DAYS IS
ABOUT 109,000 DOLLARS.

STEVE says
THE PROVINCIAL AUDITOR IN 1992
SAID YOU PAID TOO MUCH
FOR LAND.
THERE WEREN'T SATISFACTORY CONTROLS.

EVELYN says
HE WAS LOOKING AT THE PERIOD
1986 TO '91, AND HE WASN'T
SATISFIED THAT THE MINISTRY
OF HOUSING RESPONDED QUICKLY
ENOUGH WHEN THE MARKET STARTED
TO CHANGE, SALLY, TO LOWER
PRICES AND PUTTING MORE
COMPETITION INTO THE PROCESS
IN OUR NON-PROFIT HOUSING PROGRAM.
I AGREE WITH THAT.

SALLY says
BUT THE MARKET HAS NOTHING
TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT
YOU RENOVATED THOSE PLACES
ON THE BEACH AT 318,000 PER UNIT.
I MEAN, WHEN YOU DO THINGS
IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR...

EVELYN says
EVERYTHING THAT'S DONE
IN THE NON-PROFIT PROGRAM IS PRIVATE.
I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
IT'S PRIVATE MORTGAGING.
IT'S PRIVATE CONSTRUCTION.
IT'S PRIVATE GROUPS THAT GET
TOGETHER AND SPONSOR THE HOUSING.
IT'S PRIVATE ARCHITECTS.
IT'S PRIVATE CONSULTANTS.

Sally says WHO ARE GUARANTEED BY THE
PUBLIC IF COSTS GO OVER
CONTROL.

EVELYN says
WE HAVE CHANGED THE PROGRAM.
WE HAVE CHANGED THE PROGRAM,
AND THERE'S A LOT MORE
COMPETITION IN THAT PROGRAM
NOW, AND WE HAVE REALLY HAVE
PUT PRESSURE DOWN ON LAND
COSTS, CONSTRUCTION COSTS,
AND FEES.
WE HAVE PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE DOWN.

IAN says BUT CAN YOU RESPOND, AS PERHAPS YOU SHOULDN'T
DO, TO SALLY'S HIGHLY AGGRESSIVE PRIVATE SECTOR VIEWS AND
EMPHASIZE THAT EVERYTHING IS PRIVATE...
DOESN'T THAT REALLY LEAD
YOU TO THE PROPOSITION THAT
YOU SHOULD REGULATE THE MARKET
INSTEAD OF SUBSIDIZING?

EVELYN says NO.
WHEN YOU DO NON-PROFIT
HOUSING, ALL THAT WE'RE DOING
AS GOVERNMENT TO CREATE IT
IN A CAPITAL INVESTMENT SENSE
IS GUARANTEE THE MORTGAGE.
THAT'S ALL WE'RE DOING.
THEN WE PROVIDE SUBSIDIES THAT
ALLOW IT TO PAY ITSELF OFF,
AND WE ALLOW PEOPLE OF LOW
INCOMES TO LIVE IN THERE.
WE TOP UP THE RENT.

SALLY says BUT FOR 35
YEARS AND THEN IT'S OUT
OF YOUR CONTROL, RIGHT?

EVELYN says
AND IT'S OWNED BY
A NON-PROFIT GROUP
UNDER STRICT CONDITIONS.

Sally says BUT THERE'S NO GUARANTEE IT
WILL REMAIN LOW COST HOUSING.

STEVE says THE ONE
GUARANTEE WE HAVE LEFT IS THAT
WE HAVE TO GO ON TO THE NEXT ITEM.
STICK AROUND, YOU MAY ENJOY THIS.
IT'S ALL ABOUT HECKLING,
WHICH YOU MAY HAVE DONE AT ONE
TIME OR ANOTHER.

IAN says OH, NO.

Steve says THE ROLE OF AN OPPOSITION
MEMBER AT QUEEN'S PARK MAY
SEEM DISCOURAGING AT TIMES.
LET'S FACE THIS, A GOVERNMENT
HAS ALL THE POWER, RIGHT,
MS GIGANTES?
BUT NOT NECESSARILY ALL
THE FUN WHICH YOU CAN ATTEST TO.
BUT THERE IS A TIME HONOURED
TRADITION THAT SOME HAVE
HONED TO NEAR PERFECTION.
IT IS THE ART OF HECKLING.
LET'S TAKE A CLOSER LOOK
IN THIS WEEK'S "POSTCARDS
FROM THE LEDGE."

(Theme music plays)
A white postcard spins into view. A handwritten caption on it reads "Postcards from the Leg."

A clip shows the floor of Parliament in session.

The Speaker announces THE MEMBER FOR DURHAM YORK.

A man in his forties with short dark hair and a moustache stands up. He wears a double-breasted gray coat over a brown tie and striped white and gray shirt. As he talks, he gestures.

He shouts and says THANK YOU MR. SPEAKER.
MR. SPEAKER, I WILL TRY
TO SPEAK OVER THE HECKLING.

A man in his forties in a double-breasted light gray coat and large-framed glasses sits with arms folded talking to Steve. A caption reads "Chris Stockwell, PC, Etobicoke West."

Chris says THIS WHOLE SET UP IS
CONFRONTATIONAL.
AND JUST A FRUSTRATION LEVEL
BUILDS UP, AND SOMETIMES
YOU BLOW YOUR CORK.

Sitting during the session, he shouts and says
YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF NERVE, PAL!
YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF NERVE!
IT'S OUR FAULT! YOU THINK YOU CAN BLAME IT ON US!
YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF NERVE!

THE SPEAKER says ORDER!
THE MEMBER FOR ETOBICOKE
WEST REMAINS OUT OF ORDER!

A woman in a blue dress with short brown hair talks to Steve. A caption reads "Elinor Caplan, LIB, Oriole."

Elinor says WE FIGHT AND EXPRESS
OUR FRUSTRATION WITH WORDS,
RATHER THAN FIGHTING WITH GUNS
AND SWORDS.
IN FACT THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS
WILL TELL YOU THAT
THE OPPOSITION AND
THE GOVERNMENT PARTIES ARE
EXACTLY FOUR SWORD LENGTHS APART.
(Heckling with remarks and noises)

Elinor continues HECKLING IS USUALLY MORE
DIRECTED TOWARDS
THE GOVERNMENT THAN TOWARDS
THE OPPOSITION, EVEN THOUGH
THIS PARTICULAR LEGISLATURE
IT'S GOING BOTH WAYS.

Different members are shown heckling.

A man with receding white hair in his sixties speaks. A caption reads "Gord Mills, NDP, Durham East."

Gord says WHEN WE CAME HERE, THERE
WAS SOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE GOING TO BE NICE
AND QUIET, RESPECTABLE,
AND THAT.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY IT LASTS
ABOUT TWO WEEKS.
POLITICS DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.
[ APPLAUSE ]
(Gord thumping desk)

Gord continues AND IT'S ALSO ENCOURAGING
TO YOUR COLLEAGUES
IN THE CAUCUS. YOU KNOW,
LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE, SIT THERE,
ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE HAVING
A BAD DAY, AND THEY TAKE UP
ON MEMBERS WHO HAVE CROSSED
SWORDS, SOME SORT
OF ENCOURAGEMENT THAT "WE MAY BE
DOWN, BUT BY GOLLY WE'RE NOT OUT."

Chris says I'VE HEARD SOME HILARIOUS
HECKLES THAT CAN ACTUALLY STOP
PROCEEDINGS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
SOMEBODY HAS -- JUST RECENTLY,
FOR INSTANCE, THE MINISTER
OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS, ED
PHILLIPS, GOT UP
AND INADVERTENTLY
THREW A HECKLE OUT.
ONE OF THE MEMBERS SHOUTED
OUT, I THINK IT WAS
"YOU'RE DUMB OR YOU'RE STUPID,"
WHICH IS REALLY A SILLY HECKLE.

Minister Phillips says WELL, I'M SORRY,
MR. SPEAKER, I'M BEING CALLED
STUPID BY THE HONOURABLE MEMBER.
BUT THAT IS, IN FACT,
THE CASE.
[ LAUGHTER ]
IT IS IN FACT THE CASE...

Voices say RIGHT ON!
RIGHT ON!

Elinor says HECKLING IS A PART
OF THE BRITISH PARLIAMENTARY TRADITION.
IT'S PART OF THE TRADITION
OF THIS PLACE.

With arms folded, Chris says IT'S ONE THING TO SUGGEST
THAT, OH, YOU SHOULDN'T HECKLE, BUT THERE'S
PEOPLE LIKE ME, AND I'M JUST NOT THAT
KIND OF PERSON.
IF I'VE GOT SOMETHING TO SAY,
I SAY IT.

STEVE says ORDER, ORDER, ORDER!
WE'VE GOT TO GO.
EVELYN GIGANTES, MINISTER OF HOUSING, THANKS
FOR BEING WITH US.
SEE YOU GUYS NEXT WEEK.
THANKS JOR JOINING US.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN. SO LONG.

(Theme music plays)

Against Parliament Building, The End Credits roll.

Host, Steve Paikin.

Show Producer, Susanna Kelley.

Story Editor, Richard Martyn.

Production Manager, Shellie Rubin.

Opening Sequence, Allan Myers.

Set Designer, Jennifer Carroll.

Director, Allan Myers.

Consulting Producer, Janice Neil.

A production of TVOntario. 1993.

Watch: Housing