Transcript: Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us? | Sep 29, 2021

Steve Paikin sits in his home office. Framed pictures of The Ontario Legislative Building and Walter Cronkite hang on the wall. A calendar is opened to September. Paikin wears a white button-down shirt and a patterned black tie.

Text reads, “Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us?”

Paikin begins,
ONTARIO'S VACCINE
PASSPORT IS NOW IN EFFECT.
AND FOR THE FULLY VAXXED IT'S
MAKING MANY PUBLIC SPACES FEEL
SAFER THAN THEY HAVE FELT IN
ALMOST TWO YEARS.
BUT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT
GOTTEN THE JAB, WELL, SOME DOORS
ARE NOW LARGELY CLOSED TO THEM.
WITH US NOW, ON WHAT THAT SIDE
OF THE EQUATION LOOKS AND FEELS
LIKE, WE WELCOME: ONTARIO'S
FORMER INFORMATION AND PRIVACY
COMMISSIONER ANN CAVOUKIAN.
NOW DISTINGUISHED EXPERT IN
RESIDENCE LEADING RYERSON
UNIVERSITY'S PRIVACY BY DESIGN
CENTRE OF EXCELLENCE.
DR. KWAME MCKENZIE IS HERE,
THE CEO WITH THE HEALTH POLICY
NON-PROFIT THE WELLESLEY
INSTITUTE AND SAT ON THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT'S ADVISORY TABLE ON
VACCINE CERTIFICATES.
STEVE JOORDENS, PROFESSOR OF
PSYCHOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO SCARBOROUGH.
AND WE WELCOME KERRY BOWMAN,
ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF BIOETHICS
AND GLOBAL HEALTH AT THE U. OF
T.'S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND
COMMUNITY MEDICINE.
IT'S GREAT TO SEE FOUR FAMILIAR
FACES FOR A TIMELY AND IMPORTANT
TOPIC ON TVO TONIGHT.
JUST BEFORE WE START, WE DO WANT
TO SHARE A LITTLE BIT OF FOOTAGE
HERE OF WHAT WENT DOWN AT THE
EATON CENTRE THIS PAST SATURDAY.
BECAUSE -- WELL, LET'S FACE IT,
WE'RE STARTING TO SEE MORE OF
THIS.
AND WE SUSPECT THIS WILL NOT BE
THE LAST WE SEE OF THESE KINDS
OF THINGS.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD, LET'S
ROLL THAT.

Footage shows protesters clashing with police officers. Unmasked people try to push their way into the Eaton Centre shopping mall as security guards attempt to close the doors.

(Crowd noise)

The crowd chants,
FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!
FREEDOM!

A man in a white hoodie shouts into a megaphone.

Text reads, “Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us? The Can and Can’t Do’s”

Paikin adds,
OKAY. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO
DID NOT WANT TO WEAR MASKS AND
YET WANTED ACCESS TO THE EATON
CENTRE. NO ONE KNOWS THEIR
VACCINATION STATUS, OF COURSE.
BUT LET'S JUST -- AND STEVE, I
WILL GO TO YOU FIRST TO START US
OFF FIRST. THE VACCINE PASSPORT
SYSTEM IS NOW IN PLACE. IT'S BEEN
WITH US FOR A WEEK. HOW DO YOU
THINK IT'S WORKING OUT SO FAR?

Steve Joordens sits in front of a dark blue wall. A framed picture of a Formula One car is hung behind him. Steve wears a black button-down shirt and glasses. His grey and black hair is tied in a bun.

Text reads, “Steve Joordens, University of Toronto Scarborough”

Steve replies,
I MEAN I THINK IT'S THE RIGHT THING.
WE'RE NOW KIND OF TAKING THIS TO
THE LEVEL THEY'RE AT.
AND SO FOR A LOT OF THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE ANTI-VAXXER, IT'S AN
EMOTIONAL RESPONSE THEY'RE
HAVING.
THEY HAVE A LOT OF FEAR ABOUT
THINGS.
AND, YOU KNOW, TO SOME EXTENT,
THIS IS AN EMOTIONAL ANTIDOTE IN
THE SENSE WHERE WE'RE SAYING,
OKAY, YOU HAVE SOME FEAR BUT YOU
ALSO HAVE ALL THESE OTHER THINGS
YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE DOING.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK YOU TO
CHOOSE BETWEEN THEM.
AND IT'S KIND OF -- I EQUATE IT
TO THE FATHER WHEN YOU HAVE THE
ARGUMENT WHERE THE FATHER SAYS
THAT'S IT, ARGUMENT'S OVER, I HAVE
THE CAR, I HAVE THE KEYS, IF
YOU EVER WANT TO DRIVE THE CAR
AGAIN YOU WILL PLAY IT MY WAY.
THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE FACING NOW
IS THIS TOUGH DECISION OF
HOW MUCH DO THEY WANT TO BE
AN ANTI-VAXXER, HOW MUCH DO THEY
WANT THESE FREEDOMS THEY'RE
SO USED TO.

Paikin responds,
KWAME, BASED ON WHAT YOUR
READING, SEEING, HEARING HOW DO
YOU THINK IT'S WORKING SO FAR?

Kwame McKenzie sits in front of a blank white wall. He wears a black blazer over a pink dress shirt and a red and black striped tie. Kwame’s goatee greys at the chin.

Text reads, “Kwame McKenzie, Wellesley Institute”

Kwame replies,
WELL, I AM VERY WORRIED ABOUT IT.
PRE-COVID-19 WE HAD A TWO-TIER
SOCIETY AND COVID MADE IT WORSE.
AND, I DON'T THINK DIVIDED SOCIETIES
EVER WORK.
AND SO I'M MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN
THINKING HOW WE CAN GET
EVERYBODY ON SIDE FOR WHAT NEEDS
TO BE A COMMUNITY EFFORT TO BEAT
COVID.
AND I'M WORRIED ABOUT POLICIES
WHICH INADVERTENTLY DIVIDE US
RATHER THAN BRINGING US
TOGETHER.

Paikin asks,
ANN CAVOUKIAN, HOW DO
YOU SEE IT?

Ann Cavoukian sits in a home office. Books fill a shelf behind her. Ann wears a dark blazer over a silver necklace. Her shoulder-length brown hair lays over her hoop earrings.

Text reads, “Ann Cavoukian, Ryerson University”

Ann states,
COVID VACCINES AND VACCINE
PASSPORTS ARE, INDEED, VERY
DIVISIVE. THERE'S NO QUESTION.
THE ISSUE IS NOT WHETHER THE
VACCINE WORKS.
IT CERTAINLY APPEARS TO WORK FOR
FOUR TO SIX MONTHS.
DECREASING THE PROBABILITY OF
CONTRACTING COVID-19.
BUT THE QUESTION IS: AT WHAT
COST?
AND WE ALSO HAVE TO BE
RESPECTFUL TO BOTH SIDES.
I'M NOT AN ANTI-VAXXER.
I'M A CLASSIC LIBERAL.
BUT I WANT THE SUN TO SHINE ON
THE EVIDENCE ON BOTH SIDES.
AND, YOU KNOW, LET THE PHOTONS
DISINFECT THE DISCUSSION.
WE NEED EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES AND
HEARING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
EQUATION.

Paikin responds,
THEY DO SAY SUNSHINE
IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT.
OKAY, KERRY BOWMAN, WHAT DO YOU
SAY ABOUT HOW THINGS ARE GOING
RIGHT NOW?

Kerry Bowman sits in front of a blank white wall. The collar of his white dress shirt lays on the lapels of his tan blazer. Kerry wears his dark hair parted to one side. His eyeglasses rest on his nose.

Text reads, “Kerry Bowman, University of Toronto”

Kerry says,
LOOK, STEVE, IT'S CLEARLY DIVISIVE.
THE QUESTION IS, FROM AN ETHICAL
POINT OF VIEW IS THIS DIVISION
JUSTIFIED?
AND SO MUCH OF ETHICS IS TIED TO
PROPORTIONALITY. YOU KNOW
WE JUST DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT
WHETHER IT'S TRULY JUSTIFIED.
IT'S OBVIOUSLY HAVING A SOCIAL
EFFECT.
AND MUCH OF IT IS -- SOME OF IT
IS VERY NEGATIVE.
I ALSO HAVE MY EYE -- AND I'M
SURE WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS AS
OUR SESSION PROGRESSES.
BUT WHAT ARE WE LEFT WITH WHEN
THIS EVENTUALLY ENDS?
IN WHAT WAY DOES IT CHANGE OUR
VIEW OF ETHICS?
BECAUSE I FIND THE DISCOURSE SO
FAR HAS BEEN VERY, VERY BLACK
AND WHITE, STICKS AND CARROTS,
NO BRAINERS, SLAM DUNK.
ALL THESE METAPHORS.
I SEE IT AS MUCH MORE COMPLEX
THAN THAT.
AND WE JUMPED IN WITH BOTH FEET.
I HOPE IT'S US JUSTIFIED.

Paikin replies,
WELL KERRY, LET ME FOLLOW
UP WITH YOU ON THIS AND YOU CAN
TELL US AS AN ETHICIST OF
WHETHER PUBLIC OPINION AND WHERE
ITS AT. WHETHER THAT SHOULD
MATTER IN THIS CASE.
BUT THE FACT IS, POLLS DO SHOW US
THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF
ONTARIANS SUPPORT THE VACCINE
PASSPORT IDEA.
THEY SUPPORT THE NOTION THAT IF
YOU WANT TO GO TO A JAYS GAME OR
A GYM OR RESTAURANT OTHER
NON-ESSENTIAL PLACES YOU SHOULD
HAVE TO SHOW SOME KIND OF
IDENTIFICATION THAT INDICATES WHAT
YOUR HEALTH STATUS IS.
ARE YOU ON SIDE WITH THE NOTION
THAT IF 80% OF THE PEOPLE
BELIEVE THAT'S THE WAY WE OUGHT
TO DO IT THEN THAT'S THE WAY WE
OUGHT TO DO IT?

Kerry responds,
THAT'S A STRONG
DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPAL AND A
PROFOUND ETHICAL ARGUMENT.
BUT I THINK MOST OF US HERE AND
LISTENING WOULD APPRECIATE THAT
MAJORITY IS A TERRIBLE WAY TO
PROTECT VULNERABILITY AND OTHER
PEOPLE'S RIGHTS.
AND SO THAT'S A GREAT CONCERN.
ALSO, THEY'RE ON BOARD.
BUT WE HAVE NO METRICS.
YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE ENDPOINT?
WHAT'S THE -- WHAT ARE THE INS
AND OUTS EPIDEMIOLOGICALLY, WHAT
WILL THE EFFECT BE?
IT'S SO BLENDED WITH OTHER
INTERVENTIONS WE MAY NEVER KNOW
THAT. SO, ALTHOUGH PEOPLE I
WOULD SAY ARE ON BOARD,
I APPRECIATE THAT. I STILL WORRY
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW IT AFFECTS
MANY, MANY OTHER PEOPLE WITHIN
OUR SOCIETY.

Paikin asks,
ALL RIGHT, KWAME, LET
ME DO THE FOLLOW-UP WITH YOU
WHICH IS SHOULD PUBLIC POLICY
NOT FAVOUR THOSE WHO ARE BOTH IN
THE MAJORITY, FOLLOWING HEALTH
PROTOCOLS, WENT AND GOT THEIR
SHOTS? SHOULD PUBLIC POLICY
NOT FAVOUR THEM?

Kwame states,
I SHOULD START BY
SAYING THAT I AM REALLY VERY,
VERY PRO-VACCINATION.
I DO BELIEVE THAT WHEN WE LOOK
AT THE FOUR AND A HALF MILLION
DEATHS FROM COVID WORLDWIDE AND
THE ACTUAL INCREDIBLY LOW
INCIDENTS OF VACCINE PROBLEMS,
THAT WE'RE IN THE RIGHT PLACE
TRYING TO GET PEOPLE VACCINATED.
AND IF ANYBODY ASKED ME WHETHER
I THOUGHT EIGHTEEN MONTHS FROM
THE START OF THE PANDEMIC I'D
ACTUALLY BE HAVING A
CONVERSATION ABOUT PEOPLE'S
RIGHT NOT TO PROTECT THEMSELVES,
I'D SAY THIS IS CRAZY.
IT'S RIDICULOUS, RIGHT?
AND YOU'RE RIGHT NOT TO PROTECT
YOUR NEIGHBOUR, I’D SAY I DIDN'T
THINK WE'D BE HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION. AND SO I'M VERY,
YOU KNOW, SO I'M VERY THAT.
THE QUESTION IS: HOW DO YOU GET
THERE?
AND WHETHER HAVING -- AND HOW
YOU GET THERE IN THE WAY THAT
REDUCES CONSENSUS.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE THAT
I AM WORRIED THAT IF YOU GO TOO
QUICKLY, WITH VACCINE PASSPORTS,
RATHER THAN DO THINGS THAT WILL
BRING OTHER PEOPLE ALONG, THAT
YOU CAN END UP HARDENING
OPPOSITION TO VACCINATION AND TO
ME I THINK THE VACCINATION IS
VERY, VERY IMPORTANT IN ORDER TO
PROTECT US.

Paikin adds,
WELL LET'S TALK, STEVE
ABOUT HOW WE GOT THERE.
THE FACT IS THE GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO HAS NOT PASSED ANY LAW
FORCING PEOPLE TO HAVE THE
VACCINATION.
THEY'VE ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO
HAVE IT.
THEY'VE ADVERTISED UP THE
YING YANG TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE
KNOW THAT IT'S AVAILABLE TO THEM
AND THAT IT'S GENERALLY SPEAKING
GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH TO GET IT.
WOULD YOU HAVE ANY QUIBBLES OR
QUALMS ABOUT HOW WE GOT TO A
BASICALLY, I THINK WHERE WE'RE
AT, 80% VACCINATED STATUS -- OR
70% DOUBLE VAXXED RIGHT NOW IN
CANADA?

Steve says,
YEAH, I MEAN, WHEN WE
REALLY LOOK AT HOW ALL OF THIS
EVOLVED.
A LOT OF IT STARTED WITH THE
ORIGINAL PAPER THAT PURPORTEDLY
LINKED VACCINES TO AUTISM.
THAT WAS A HORRIBLE PAPER THAT
WAS DISCREDITED ON SO MANY
LEVELS.
IT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN
PUBLISHED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
THAT WAS A FAILURE OF SCIENCE TO
ALLOW THAT TO BE PUBLISHED.
BUT SINCE THEN, THAT COMBINED
WITH SOCIAL MEDIA. THE POWER
OF SOCIAL MEDIA TO SUPPORT ANY
STORY WHETHER IT'S BEEN FACT
CHECKED OR NOT, AND, IN FACT, TO
MULTIPLY THE POWER OF A STORY
ESPECIALLY ONE THAT HAS AN
EMOTIONAL POWER TO IT -- SO
WHEN WE GET HIT BY AN EMOTIONAL
STORY IT DOES TWO THINGS
SIMULTANEOUSLY.
IT KIND OF SHUTS DOWN OUR
FRONTAL LOBES, MAKES IT HARD FOR
US TO THINK RATIONALLY.
AND IT PROVOKES US TO DO
SOMETHING. WE FEEL THIS NEED TO
DO SOMETHING.
IF YOU ARE ON SOCIAL MEDIA YOU
CAN SHARE, YOU CAN LIKE, YOU CAN
COMMENT.
AND SO WE SEE A LOT OF SHARING.
AND WE SEE THE FALSE INFORMATION
NOW GET A POWER TO SURROUND
PEOPLE THAT THE GOOD INFORMATION
DOESN'T HAVE BECAUSE OF ALL THE
FACT CHECKS AND THE REPUTATION
OF THE SOURCES. SO I'M A LITTLE
SURPRISED BY SOME OF THESE.
YOU CAN SAY IS THE VACCINE
100% SAFE? NO.
BUT WE'VE GOT A LOT OF STUDIES
LOOKING AT THAT IN DETAIL.
DO WE KNOW ALL THE LONG-TERM
EFFECTS? NO.
DO WE HAVE ANY REASON TO WORRY
ABOUT THEM? NOT REALLY.
THERE'S NOTHING CLEAR TO SUGGEST
THAT WE DO.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, LOOK AT THE
OTHER SIDE OF THE FORMULA. IF WE'RE
NOT GOING TO GO WITH THE VACCINE,
WE ARE GOING TO GO WITH, WHAT?
IS IT JUST LETTING EVERYBODY GET
SICK?
WE KNOW HOW THAT TURNS OUT.
WE KNOW THERE ARE LONG-TERM
EFFECTS. WE KNOW THERE’S OVER F
OUR MILLION DEATHS.
THE VACCINE IS OUR WAY OUT. WE
NEED TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO DO IT.
THIS IS A DIVISIVE APPROACH
THAT'S NOT FANTASTIC.
AND I THINK WHAT YOU ARE GOING
TO SEE IS SOME PEOPLE GET REALLY
UPSET AS WE SAW IN THE EATON
CENTRE AND SOME PEOPLE QUIETLY
GET THE VACCINE AND WE NEED THAT
LATTER GROUP BECAUSE WE NEED TO
REACH HERD IMMUNITY.
THAT'S THE WAY OUT.
THAT'S THE QUESTION I WOULD POSE
TO OTHER PEOPLE, IF NOT THE
VACCINE, IF NOT TO PUSH PEOPLE TO
GET IT, WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE THAT
YOU HAVE IN MIND?

Kwame says,
SORRY, STEVE, CAN I JUST FOLLOW UP?

Paikin replies,
KWAME FIRST AND THEN
ANN CAVOUKIAN COME IN AFTER
THAT.

Kwame continues,
…BECAUSE I DO THINK THERE ARE
DIFFERENT REASONS WHY PEOPLE
AREN'T TAKING THE VACCINE.
YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE
IN SOME POPULATIONS WITH
HISTORICAL REASONS WHY THEY'RE
LESS THAN COMFORTABLE WITH BEING
MADE TO DO THINGS.
INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS,
RACIALIZED POPULATIONS AND THEIR
HISTORY IN CANADA AND ALSO WITH
SCIENCE.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY
JUST, YOU KNOW, HAVEN'T HAD
TIME.
THEY'RE WORKING TWO JOBS AND
THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT IT.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD
BAD INFORMATION.
AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
ANTI-VACCINATION OR ANTI
VACCINATION TO START OFF WITH.
SO IT'S NOT A MONOLITHIC GROUP.
THERE ARE LOTS OF REASONS WHY
PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED.
AND SO WHEN I THINK WHEN YOU'RE
IN THAT SITUATION YOU SOMETIMES
NEED PUBLIC POLICY THAT TRIES TO
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ALL OF THESE
DIFFERENT REASONS AND TRIES TO
HELP PEOPLE MOVE ALONG.
AND I'M WORRIED THAT WE HAVEN'T
DONE AS MUCH AS WE COULD TO MOVE
PEOPLE ALONG BEFORE WE
INSTITUTED THE VACCINE
PASSPORTS.
AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN I DON'T
ACCEPT THAT THE MAJORITY WANT
THEM OR THAT IT IS A VIABLE WAY
FORWARD.
I'M JUST CONCERNED THAT WE NEED
TO DO MORE TO BRING EVERYBODY
ALONG SO THAT WE'RE WORKING ON
THIS AS A CONSENSUAL COMMUNITY.

Paikin says, ANN CAVOUKIAN.

Ann responds,
WHEN WE SAY BRING
EVERYBODY ALONG, WITH DUE
RESPECT, PEOPLE ARE NOT HEARING
THE SCIENTISTS, THE
EPIDEMIOLOGISTS ON ARGUABLY THE
OTHER SIDE.
THERE ARE SO MANY QUESTIONS THAT
WE DO NOT HAVE ANSWERS TO.
LOOK AT ISRAEL. ISRAEL HAD SO
MUCH VACCINE RIGHT AWAY. AND
WHAT THEY FOUND IS THAT THERE'S
NOW CONSIDERABLE ANECDOTAL
DATA FROM ISREAL, THAT NATURAL
IMMUNITY IS UP TO THIRTEEN TIMES,
THIRTEEN TIMES MORE PROTECTIVE
THAN A VACCINE. SO I WANT TO SAY,
WITH DUE RESPECT, WE HAVE TO HEAR
FROM ALL SIDES OF THE EQUATION.
AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT
THE ENORMOUS IMPACT ON PRIVACY
FROM VACCINE PASSPORTS.
THEY ARE CREATING A NEW
INESCAPABLE WEB OF SURVEILLANCE.
WITH GEOLOCATION DATA BEING
TRACKED EVERYWHERE.
WE HAVE A GLOBAL DIGITAL
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS GROWING
LITERALLY ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
AND WHAT ABOUT INDIVIDUALS WHO
HAVE ANAPHYLACTIC OR
IMMUNOCOMPROMISED WHO CANNOT
GET THE VACCINE. THERE ARE SO
MANY FACTORS TO CONSIDER.
AND I SHOULD MENTION WITH THE
VACCINE PASSPORT, WHICH I FIND
HIGHLY, HIGHLY OFFENSIVE FROM A
PRIVACY PERSPECTIVE, BOTH QUEBEC
AND THE PORT-A-PASS IN ALBERTA
HAVE BEEN FOUND -- THE CBC
REVEALED THIS -- TO BE
INCREDIBLY PRIVACY INVASIVE.
IT'S COLLECTING ALL KINDS OF
PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT WAS
NEVER INTENDED TO BE COLLECTED.
THIS INFORMATION IS BEING SHARED
ONLINE WITH A VARIETY OF
UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTIES.
SO THIS IS NOT A SLAM DUNK.

Paikin interrupts,
OKAY LET ME JUMP IN HERE FOR A
SECOND PLEASE. ANN, YOU'VE
RAISED A HOST OF ISSUES, MANY
OF WHICH ARE PRETTY DARN
CONTROVERSIAL.
SO I WANT TO GET SOME FEEDBACK
FROM AROUND THE HORN FROM
EVERYBODY ELSE ON SOME OF THE
THINGS THAT YOU'VE RAISED.
LET'S GO KWAME, STEVE AND THEN
KERRY.

Kwame responds,
OKAY. SO WE KNOW THAT PLACES
LIKE SWEDEN DECIDED TO GO DOWN
THE LINE OF HERD IMMUNITY AND
THEY DECIDED VERY EARLY ON THAT
THEY WERE GOING TO TRY THAT AND
IT WAS A MONUMENTAL FAILURE.
WE KNOW THAT ANN IS COMPLETELY
RIGHT THAT IF YOU GET IMMUNITY
FOLLOWING HAVING HAD COVID, THAT
THAT IS VERY STRONG IMMUNITY.
THE PROBLEM IS IF WE WENT DOWN
THAT LINE WE WOULD HAVE MANY,
MANY, MANY, MANY MORE DEATHS.
AND MOST PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED AND
MOST PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED THAT'S
NOT THE WAY TO GO.
AND THE ISSUE IS, THAT WE HAVE
THE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE BECAUSE
OF SCIENCE AND BECAUSE SCIENCE
TAKES ANECDOTE, IT TAKES
EMOTION, IT TAKES SORT OF
PEOPLE'S GOOD IDEAS AND IT TESTS
THEM PROPERLY.
AND THEN, ONCE IT'S TESTED
PROPERLY, WE START MAKING POLICY
BASED ON FIRM SCIENCE AND FIRM
STATISTICS.

Ann interrupts,
THAT TESTING ISN'T TAKING PLACE
EFFICIENTLY.

Paikin says,
HANG ON, LET'S HEAR KWAME, FIRST.

Kwame continues,
AND PROPER KNOWLEDGE.
SO ALL OF THIS GETS DONE.
WHAT ISN'T THAT USEFUL IS NOT
DOING THE SCIENCE PROPERLY.
WE USE SCIENCE TO GET AROUND SORT
OF BASICALLY HEARSAY. AND THAT IS
JUST NOT USEFUL IN A PANDEMIC.
WE NEED TO DO THE WORK PROPERLY.
AND THAT'S WHAT'S BEING DONE.
NOW, I'VE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO
SEE LOADS OF THESE DATA AND TO
SEE LOTS OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE
HAVE PUT ON THE TABLE, TO SEE LOADS
OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE THINK MIGHT
WORK AND MOST OF THEM DON'T.
AND WHEN THEY DO WORK, THEY ARE
BEING PROMOTED AND THEY'RE BEING
USED.
SO I THINK THAT CERTAINLY WITH
REGARD TO WHERE WE ARE AT THE
MOMENT SCIENTIFICALLY, I JUST
ACTUALLY THINK WE'RE IN AN
AMAZING PLACE TEN MONTHS AFTER
PEOPLE STARTED, WE'VE GOT
VACCINES THAT WORK AND HAVE BEEN
TRYING TO PROTECT MILLIONS OF
PEOPLE FROM COVID. IT IS A MODERN
MIRACLE. AND IF PEOPLE WANT TO
UNDERMINE THAT I DON'T KNOW WHY
THEY WOULD.

Paikin asks,
STEVE, CAN I HAVE YOU COME IN
HERE, PLEASE?

Stave adds,
SURE. I THINK KWAME HAS DONE A
PRETTY GOOD JOB ON WHAT ANN SAID
AND IT'S MORE MEDICAL THAN I CAN
TALK TO. I JUST WANTED TO POINT
OUT WHAT KWAME SAID.
I LIKE THE IDEA OF BRINGING
EVERYBODY ON BOARD AND I
UNDERSTAND THERE IS A SPECTRUM.
THE THING WE ALSO HAVE TO
CONSIDER IS THERE A BIG CLOCK
BEHIND US. RIGHT?
WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS.
IF WE SAY, OKAY, LET'S TAKE
ANOTHER YEAR TO USE SOME SUBTLE
MESSAGING TO TRY TO DO WHATEVER,
THAT'S THE TIME WHEN THE NEXT
VARIANT IS GOING TO COME OUT AND
TAKE OVER, AGAIN.
AND SO IF WE REALLY WANT TO GET
TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS WE'RE
SO CLOSE TO HERD IMMUNITY WE'VE
GOT TO GET PEOPLE THERE.
AND THAT'S WHY I SUPPORT THE
VACCINE PASSPORT.
I THINK IT IS DIFFICULT.
IT MAKES THINGS REALLY
UNCOMFORTABLE FOR A LOT OF
PEOPLE.
AND, OF COURSE, THOSE WITH
MEDICAL EXEMPTIONS AND SUCH WE
HAVE TO LOOK INTO THAT AND MAKE
SURE THEY'RE SUPPORTED.
BUT IN GENERAL, THIS SEEMS TO BE
THE BEST WAY TO GET US FROM
WHERE WE ARE NOW -- 80% -- TO
WHERE WE'VE GOT TO BE, ABOUT
90%.
AND THEN WE CAN ALL STOP
FIGHTING AND BE ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THIS.
BUT THE LONGER WE STAY IN THIS
GREY ZONE AND HAVE THESE SILLY
FIGHTS OVER, YOU KNOW, PSEUDO
SCIENCE VERSUS REAL SCIENCE AND
PEOPLE PROMOTING CERTAIN THINGS,
THEN I THINK THIS IS WHERE IT'S
NOT THE PASSPORT THAT'S DIVISIVE.
IT'S EVERYTHING THAT'S LED UP TO
THIS POINT.
WE WERE DIVIDED WAY BEFORE THE
VACCINE PASSPORT.
THE VACCINE PASSPORT IS AN
ATTEMPT TO GET YOU US UNITED
EVEN THOUGH SOME OF THE GROUP
ARE GOING TO BE DRAGGING THEIR
FEET TO DO IT.

Steve asks,
KERRY BOWMAN ANYTHING YOU WANT
TO SAY IN REBUTTAL TO WHAT ANN
SAID A FEW MINUTES BACK?

Kerry replies,
YEAH, I AM GOING TO STEP BACK FROM
THE EPIDEMIOLOGY AND HIDE BEHIND
THE FACT THAT I HAVE A PH.D. AND ITS
NOT IN EPIDEMIOLOGY. I’M NOT NAIVE
HOWEVER AND I READ A GREAT DEAL.
SO THAT'S A MAJOR CONSIDERATION.
BUT YOU KNOW, I DO HEAR FROM
STUDENTS THAT THEY'RE FEARFUL TO
EVER COME UP WITH ANY KIND OF
ARGUMENT THAT DOESN'T FIT INTO
THE ACCEPTABLE THIS IS WHAT WE
NEED TO DO AND THIS IS HOW WE DO
IT. AND KWAME, I AGREE WITH MANY,
MANY POINTS YOU'RE MAKING.
I DO NOT AGREE IN THE LEAST THAT
SCIENCE IS SOMEHOW BULLETPROOF
AND COMPLETELY RESISTANT TO
OUTSIDE INFLUENCE.
THAT IS SIMPLY NOT THE WAY
WESTERN CULTURE WORKS AT ALL.
AND I THINK PARTICULARLY IN THIS
PANDEMIC, SCIENCE HAS BEEN IN A
SCRAMBLE TO MAKE DECISIONS
QUICKLY WITHOUT SOMETIMES
LONGER-TERM DATA AND THEY'VE
DONE MOSTLY, I THINK, A GOOD
JOB.

Kwame responds,
I'D HAVE TO AGREE WITH
YOU TOTALLY, KERRY.
I DON'T BELIEVE SCIENCE IS
BULLETPROOF.
I ACTUALLY DON'T BELIEVE
ANYTHING IS BULLETPROOF.
AND I THINK IT'S GREAT WE'VE GOT
ETHICISTS, BECAUSE I DO THINK
SCIENCE SOMETIMES MAKES
MISTAKES, SOMETIMES MAKES BIG
MISTAKES AND SOMETIMES GOES DOWN
UNETHICAL ROUTES.
I JUST THINK IT'S ONE OF THE
BETTER STRATEGIES WE'VE GOT IN
PANDEMICS WHEN THINGS ARE FAST
MOVING TO ACTUALLY GET US TO A
PLACE THAT IS SAFE AND
DEFENSIBLE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S PERFECT.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.
AND I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH STEVE
AS WELL ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT
IT'S FAST MOVING.
THE ISSUE I HAVE AND THE WORRY I
HAVE IS WE'VE GOT BOOSTERS ON
THE HORIZON.
WE'VE ACTUALLY STILL GOT FIVE TO
TWELVE-YEAR-OLDS WHO ARE
UNVACCINATED SO WE'RE NOWHERE
NEAR GOING TO BE HERD IMMUNITY.
AND WE HAVE TO HAVE A STRATEGY
NOT JUST FOR NOW, BUT ALSO FOR
THE FUTURE.
AND I THINK IF WE ALIENATE AND
WE PRODUCE SILOS FOR CERTAIN
PARTS OF THE POPULATION, THAT
THAT MIGHT BE A STRATEGY WHICH
GIVES US PROBLEMS IN THE FUTURE.
AND IT'S A TOUGH CALL.
BECAUSE I HAVE LOADS OF SYMPATHY
WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING BUT I'M
WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE AND
WHAT HAPPENS IN A FEW MONTHS
WHEN WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING
ABOUT BOOSTERS AND HOW WE GET
THERE, RIGHT?

Paikin responds,
OKAY, LET ME PICK UP ON THAT, KWAME.
I WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT
BECAUSE HERE'S BASICALLY WHAT
PUBLIC OPINION LOOKS LIKE AS IT
RELATES TO THE FUTURE THAT YOU
ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT HAVING TO
MANAGE.
THIS IS FROM LEGER, THE PUBLIC
OPINION FIRM LEGER.
AND THEY SURVEYED CANADIANS AND
FOUND THAT 77% OF CANADIANS HAVE
A NEGATIVE OPINION OF THOSE WHO
HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED.
AND EVEN MORE, 85% OF THE
VACCINATED HOLD A NEGATIVE VIEW
OF THE UNVACCINATED.
28%, MEANTIME, OF THE
UNVACCINATED HOLD NEGATIVE VIEWS
OF VACCINATED CANADIANS.
SO THIS IS THE SOUP INTO WHICH
WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
PUBLIC POLICY THAT COULD BRING
ALONG THE MOST NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
LET ME JUST ASK THE NEUTRAL,
LEAN, OPEN-ENDED QUESTION.
ANN, ANYTHING IN THOSE NUMBERS
THAT YOU FIND CONCERNING?

Text reads, “Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us? Social Pariahs”

Ann states,
IT'S FRIGHTENING, THERE'S NO
QUESTION. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT
THIS HOLISTICALLY.
AND, STEVE, THIS IS SOMETHING
YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE IN THE PAST.
I REMEMBER IN 2010 YOU HAD A
PANEL ON CLIMATE CHANGE WITH THE
ONE PRO AND ONE AGAINST, ET
CETERA.
WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS TO BRING
ON THE SCIENTISTS, THE
EPIDEMIOLOGISTS WHO DON'T SHARE
THE VIEWS OF THE ONES YOU HAVE
ON RIGHT NOW, WITH DUE RESPECT.
WE ARE HEADING INTO A VERY
PROBLEMATIC SITUATION WITH ALL
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO-VACCINE
AND THE SCIENTISTS SUPPORTING IT
SAYING JUST IGNORE THE OTHERS.
THEY'RE SOFT SCIENCE, THEY'RE NOT
DOING IT PROPERLY.
THAT'S NONSENSE.
GO TO THE W.H.O. SITE.
BUT THE PROBLEM IS, WITH THE
VACCINE AND THE VACCINE
PASSPORTS, LET ME BE CLEAR:
THIS WILL LEAD TO A HIGHLY
INTRUSIVE SYSTEM OF
SURVEILLANCE.
THEY'RE CALLING IT VACCINE
SURVEILLANCE ASSOCIATED WITH THE
COLLECTION OF GEO-LOCATION DATA
WHICH IS LINKED TO ALL THE SITES
WHERE YOU ARE GIVING THIS
INFORMATION.
AND IT WILL TOTALLY CHANGE ANY
PRIVACY THAT WE'VE ENJOYED IN
THE PAST.

Paikin interrupts,
ANN LET ME DO A QUICK
FOLLOW UP WITH YOU ON THIS.
LET ME DO A QUICK FOLLOW UP WITH
YOU ON THIS.
IS THERE ANY INFORMATION THAT
WE'VE HAD TO PROVIDE AS PART OF
TRYING TO DEAL WITH COVID-19
THAT 99% OF US HAVEN'T ALREADY
VOLUNTEERED TO PUT UP ON OUR
FACEBOOK, TWITTER PAGES, ET
CETERA, ET CETERA.

Ann replies,
THAT'S NOT THE POINT,
I'M SORRY, STEVE.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT VERY
SENSITIVE HEALTH DATA, HEALTH
INFORMATION IS THE MOST
SENSITIVE INFORMATION DESERVING
OF THE STRONGEST PRIVACY
PROTECTION.
SO WHEN YOU'RE DEMANDING
PEOPLE'S PASSPORT INFORMATION,
AND HAVE THEY GOT A VACCINE OR
NOT. AND THEY MAY BE MEDICALLY
COMPROMISED, IMMUNOCOMPROMISED
AND CAN'T GET A VACCINE,
YOU ARE HOLDING SO
MUCH INFORMATION AGAINST THEM,
AND IT SORT OF ERADICATES ANY
LIBERTY AND FREEDOM IN OUR
SOCIETY.
A PROSPEROUS AND HEALTHY SOCIETY
NEVER THREATENED ITS LIBERTY AND
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE.

Paikin says,
ALRIGHT, KERRY BOWMAN, FROM AN
ETHICAL POINT OF VIEW DO YOU
THINK THERE HAVE BEEN PRIVACY
ISSUES RAISED DURING THE COURSE
OF GOVERNMENTS ATTEMPTING TO
TACKLE COVID-19?

Kerry states,
YEAH, I MEAN WE'RE JUST ROLLING
OUT INTO THE PASSPORTS NOW.
AND I THINK THERE PROBABLY WILL
BE. WE'RE WAITING TO SEE.
YOU KNOW, I FIND IT ODD JUST
GOING FOR A COFFEE THAT I'D HAVE
TO SHOW SOMETHING WITH MY NAME
AND PERHAPS OTHER INFORMATION ON
THERE. SO THAT'S WHAT WE SEE.
BUT, LOOK, LET ME JUST SAY, FROM
AN ETHICAL POINT OF VIEW, THE
THING THAT CONCERNS ME PROBABLY
THE MOST ABOUT THIS, IT'S REALLY
NOT -- SOME PEOPLE SAY --
LAWYERS PARTICULARLY -- WE'RE
PRESERVING AUTONOMY, NOBODY IS
BEING HELD DOWN TO BE
VACCINATED.
I WOULD SAY IT'S COERCIVE.
FOR SOME.
MOST OF US, INCLUDING ME, WE'RE
VERY HAPPY TO BE VACCINATED.
NOT EVERYONE IS.
SO THIS IS NOT AUTONOMY AS WE
KNOW IT.
THIS IS NOT FREE AND INFORMED
CONSENT IF YOUR JOB IS ON THE
LINE.
IF YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE FIRED.
I SPOKE TO SOMEONE JUST A FEW
DAYS AGO AND THEY'RE RAISING
THREE YOUNG CHILDREN AND THEY'RE
BEING VACCINATED IN FEAR FOR
THEIR LIVELIHOOD.
SO WE'RE DEVIATING FROM FREE AND
INFORMED CONSENT.
AND MAYBE NOT FOR THE MAJORITY
OF THE POPULATION.
BUT I REALLY WONDER OF THE
EFFECT OF THE SOCIAL FABRIC.
IF ETHICS WILL EVER RECOVER FROM
THIS.
BECAUSE THE THINKING NOW IS I'M
GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER YOU'RE
MAKING GOOD DECISIONS FOR
YOURSELF OR NOT.
NOT ARE YOU MAKING INFORMED
DECISIONS, I'M GOING TO DECIDE
IF YOUR DECISIONS ARE GOOD.

Paikin responds,
WELL, THIS CONVERSATION WE'RE
HAVING HERE MAY REFLECT, IN
FACT, A LOT OF WHAT'S GOING ON
OUT THERE AS WELL.
AND TO THAT END, I DO WANT --
SHELDON OSMOND, CAN YOU GET YOU
TO BRING UP A GRAPHIC OF WHAT
THE "TORONTO STAR" HAD ON ITS
FRONT PAGE BACK ON AUGUST
26TH?
AND I'LL READ SOME OF THESE
HEADLINES THAT WERE ON THE FRONT
PAGE OF THE "TORONTO STAR": I
HAVE NO EMPATHY LEFT FOR THE
WILLFULLY UNVACCINATED.
LET THEM DIE.
THESE WERE THE KINDS OF QUOTES
THAT THE STAR LATER APOLOGIZED
FOR, I SHOULD SAY.
LATER APOLOGIZED FOR.
BUT WE ARE SEEING -- AND MAYBE
STEVE JOORDENS YOU CAN PICK UP
ON THIS.
WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE VILIFIED FOR
THEIR POSITION ON VACCINES.
FOR THEIR POSITION ON VACCINE
PASSPORTS.
FOR THEIR UNWILLINGNESS TO TAKE
VACCINATIONS WHICH LET’S REMIND
EVERYBODY THEY'RE NOT OBLIGED TO
TAKE.
THERE IS NO LAW TELLING THEM
THEY HAVE TO TAKE IT.
I'D LIKE TO GET SOME SENSE FROM
YOU AS TO WHAT THOSE
ATTITUDES -- PARTICULARLY WHEN
THEY'RE SPLASHED ON THE FRONT
PAGE OF THE BIGGEST CIRCULATION
NEWSPAPER IN THE COUNTRY -- WHAT
ALL OF THAT DOES TO THE MIX OF
THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
TONIGHT.

Steve replies,
YEAH, I MEAN IT'S TRICKY.
WE'RE ALL TRYING TO HAVE
CIVILIZED CONVERSATIONS.
BUT, YEAH, THERE ARE A LOT OF
UNDERLYING FRUSTRATIONS AND
WE'RE ALL FRUSTRATED.
WE'RE ALL TIRED OF THIS PANDEMIC.
WE ALL WANT TO BE ABLE TO GO BACK
AND SUPPORT BUSINESSES AND
LIVE THE LIFE WE WANT.
AND INCREASINGLY AMONG THE
UNVACCINATED THERE IS THIS
FEELING THAT WE COULD BE THERE.
IF EVERYBODY HAD JUST DONE THEIR
ROLE, GOT THE VACCINATION, YOU
KNOW, WE COULD POTENTIALLY BE IN
A PLACE RIGHT NOW WHERE THIS
WOULD BE OVER.
AND SO EVERYTHING WE'RE
EXPERIENCING NOW SLOWLY IN THE
MIND OF THE VACCINATED GETS PUT
ON THE UNVACCINATED. WE START
TO THINK IT'S YOUR FAULT WE ARE NOT
IN A BETTER PLACE NOW. AND WE'RE
SEEING THAT HAPPENING. MIXED
WITH WHAT I CALL THE
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH EFFECT.
WHERE, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE A LOT
OF US HAVE TRIED TO HAVE THESE
DIFFICULT DISCUSSIONS.
AND IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT WHEN
WE GET INTO THE WEEDS OF ISSUES
OF I READ THIS WEBSITE AND
ANECDOTALLY IT SAYS THIS AND
THAT AND YOU TRY TO KIND OF
COMBAT THAT.
IT GETS REALLY DIFFICULT AND
FRUSTRATING.
AND I THINK A LOT OF THE
UNVACCINATED ARE JUST TIRED OF
IT. AND IT IS LIKE THAT POINT OF
THE FATHER SAYING ENOUGH IS
ENOUGH. THAT'S IT. I'M DONE.
WE NEED TO GET VACCINATED AND
HERE'S THE PATH WE'RE GOING TO
TAKE TO DO IT.
SO I THINK THAT'S IN THERE.
AND WHAT YOU SEE IN THOSE QUOTES
THIS IS THE UNFORTUNATE THING.
WHEN PEOPLE HAVE THESE SORT OF
UNDERLYING FRUSTRATIONS THEY CAN
COME OUT IN VERY NASTY
WAYS SOMETIMES WHEN THE RIGHT
SORT OF SPARK HITS. AND I THINK
THAT’S WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, THAT
SPARK. IT IS THAT UNDERLYING
FRUSTRATION AND IT IS THERE VERY
STRONGLY IN THE VACCINATED NOW.

Paikin says,
WELL, STEVE, WE INVITED YOU
ON THIS PROGRAM OBVIOUSLY
BECAUSE OF YOUR ACADEMIC
CREDENTIALS THAT YOU BRING TO
THIS DISCUSSION BUT YOU'VE ALSO
GOT SOME PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON
THIS AS WELL.
AND IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT
THAT, I'M OFFERING YOU THIS
INVITATION TO BECAUSE YOUR
PERSONAL FAMILY CIRCUMSTANCES
MAY BE VERY INSTRUCTIVE TO
OTHERS WHO ARE WATCHING.
DO YOU WANT TO SHARE THAT?

Stave answers,
YEAH, SURE. I WOULD LOVE TO.
SO I HAVE THREE SISTERS.
THE SISTER I HAVE BEEN CLOSEST
TO FOR ALL OF MY LIFE IS A VERY
FIRM ANTI-VAXXER. GOT THERE
IN A VERY BENIGN WAY. SHE WAS
A BIG PHARMA, BIG FOOD WORRIED.
I UNDERSTAND ALL THOSE WORRIES
AND CONCERNS AND I THINK
THEY'RE VALID BUT SHE GOT PULLED
TO THE STRONG ANTI-VAXX POSITION.
SHE HAS POWER OF ATTORNEY FOR MY
MOTHER.
MY MOTHER HAS ALZHEIMER'S
DISEASE AND IS IN LONG-TERM
CARE.
BECAUSE OF MY SISTER'S VIEWS MY
MOTHER IS UNVACCINATED AND WILL
BE UNVACCINATED. THERE'S
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I CAN DO
FOR THAT.
MY SISTER AND I HAVE HAD A LOT
OF THESE CONVERSATIONS THAT I AM
SURE I COULD HAVE WITH ANN THAT
EVERY TIME WE HAVE THE
CONVERSATIONS WE JUST FEEL THAT
WE'RE FURTHER APART. AND SO,
I'VE THOUGHT LONG AND HARD ABOUT
HOW DO WE HEAL AS A COUNTRY BUT
ALSO, HOW DO WE -- HOW DO I AND
SHE HEAL?
WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO GO
FORWARD FROM HERE?
AND SO IT IS A VERY EMOTIONAL
ISSUE.
IT'S SPLITTING A LOT OF
FAMILIES.
AND IT COULD -- LIKE KWAME SAYS
IT COULD BE HERE AFTER THE
PANDEMIC IS GONE.
THIS COULD BE THE LONG-TERM
EFFECT MANY OF US ARE LIVING
WITH IS THIS HORRIBLE DIVISION
THAT WE'RE FACING. AND SO,
YEAH, I REALLY DO THINK WE
NEED TO FIND WAYS.
I DON'T THINK US ARGUING ABOUT
DETAILS OF STUFF IS WHERE WE
NEED TO BE.
I THINK WE NEED TO SHOW EACH
OTHER LOVE AND SUPPORT AND
EMPATHY.
AND THEN I QUITE HONESTLY THINK
AS A SOCIETY WE NEED THINGS LIKE
THE VACCINE PASSPORT TO KIND OF
GET PEOPLE GOING IN THE SAME
DIRECTION.
THAT ARGUING ISN'T THE APPROACH
ANY MORE.
THE RATIONAL MIND IS NOT UP TO
THIS CHALLENGE.
WE HAVE TO SPEAK TO THE
EMOTIONAL MIND TO MAKE THIS
WORK.

Paikin asks,
KERRY, CAN YOU FOLLOW
UP ON THAT?
WHAT'S THE WAY IN HERE?

Kerry answers,
WELL, THE OPPOSITE OF
WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING.
YOU KNOW, THIS AWFUL ELECTION --
I SAY "AWFUL" BECAUSE IT SEEMS
LIKE WE GOT NOWHERE WITH THIS
ENTIRE ELECTION.
BUT TO USE THIS AS A WEDGE ISSUE
WAS SO DESTRUCTIVE.
AND IT CONTRIBUTED, I THINK, TO
SO MUCH MORE POLARIZATION.
IN THE CONVERSATION LEADING UP
TO VACCINE PASSPORTS I THINK WAS
VERY, VERY BLACK AND WHITE.
IT WAS DOMINATED ALMOST
EXCLUSIVELY BY MEDICAL VOICES.
WE HEARD VERY LITTLE FROM ANYONE
THAT WAS NOT DIRECTLY -- AND
MOSTLY PRIMARILY PHYSICIANS.
AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY
DIVISIVE.
AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT
HEADLINE THAT WE SAW IN THE
STAR, THIS IS DESTRUCTIVE.
HUMAN NATURE BEING WHAT IT IS,
WHEN YOU SET UP US AND THEM --
AND I THINK IT'S A POLITICAL WIN.
IF SOMEONE COMES ON STRONG ABOUT
VACCINE PASSPORTS, THEY SOUND
POWERFUL AND DECISIVE IN A
CRISIS. I THINK IT'S A WIN.
BUT EVEN THIS CARROT AND STICK
BUSINESS.
YOU KNOW, A CARROT IS A
MANIPULATION. AND A STICK IS A
FORM OF ANIMAL CRUELTY.
IS THIS REALLY THE RIGHT
METAPHOR FOR PUBLIC HEALTH?
YOU KNOW, I THINK WE'VE COME
ABOUT THIS AND WE'VE DONE A LOT
MORE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF IT AND
PROBABLY WE HAVE LOWER VACCINE
RATES BECAUSE OF OUR APPROACH.

Paikin responds,
WELL, YOU SAY WE HAVE LOWER
VACCINE RATES ALTHOUGH OUR
RATES ARE AMONG THE HIGHEST IN
THE WORLD.
AND ANN, LET ME PUT TO YOU THE
LEGER SURVEY THAT I QUOTED
EARLIER ALSO HAD THIS ADDITIONAL
COMMENT ON IT. IT SAID:

Text reads, “As street protests over vaccine passports continue across Canada, unvaccinated Canadians are now far more unpopular than language,
cultural, and religious groups that are generally the object of negative sentiment…”

Paikin continues,
I GUESS I WANT TO KNOW IN YOUR
VIEW WHETHER OR NOT THIS
PANDEMIC AND OUR VACCINATION
RESPONSE TO IT HAS CREATED A NEW
FORM OF DISCRIMINATION IN THE
COUNTRY.

Ann states,
ABSOLUTELY, STEVE. I AGREE WITH
EVERYTHING YOU'VE JUST SAID.
AND WHAT PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE,
THEY'RE LOOKING AT ALL THE
SHORT-TERM BENEFITS OF THE
VACCINES WHICH I GIVE YOU.
THEY DO NOT KNOW THAT WE HAVE
NOT LOOKED AT THE LONG-TERM
EFFECT OF THE VACCINE.
WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF
PAUSE TO LOOK AT SOME OF THESE
OTHER ISSUES.
AND IN THE PROCESS, PEOPLE WHO
ARE VERY SENSITIVE AND WHO ARE
SAYING WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT
GETTING VACCINATED BECAUSE WE
DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THESE
QUESTIONS, THEY SHOULDN'T BE
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN THE WAY
THEY ARE BEING.
THIS IS WHAT I FIND SO
DISTURBING IS THAT WE'RE
CREATING THIS VACCINE
SURVEILLANCE WHICH IS MOUNTING
ON A DAILY BASIS.
WE HAVE THE VACCINE PASSPORTS
NOW.
AND I GAVE YOU THE TWO EXAMPLES.
IN ALBERTA IT'S CALL PORT-PASS.
AND IN QUEBEC THEIR VACCINE
PASSPORT.
THEY COLLECT ALL OF THIS
PERSONAL INFORMATION.
CONTRARY TO WHAT'S BEING SAID BY
THE GOVERNMENT.
LOTS OF PERSONAL INFORMATION IS
BEING COLLECTED AND RETAINED.
THAT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT UPON
YOU AND YOUR FREEDOM.
PRIVACY FORMS THE FOUNDATION OF
OUR FREEDOM.
WE CANNOT GIVE THAT UP.
SO WE CAN'T JUST JUMP INTO THIS
WITHOUT ALSO LISTENING TO WHAT
I'M CALLING THE OTHER SIDE.

Text reads, “Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us? A Two-Tier Society?”

Kwame interrupts, SORRY CAN I…

Paikin replies, COME ON IN KWAME.

Kwame adds,
SO STEVE, REALLY SORRY TO
HEAR ABOUT YOUR SITUATION.
I HAVE PROBABLY SHARED BEFORE
THAT MY MOTHER DIED OF COVID.
AND LIKELY DIED OF COVID THAT
WAS PASSED ON BY A CARE WORKER.
AND IF I WAS IN A POSITION WHERE
CARE WORKERS HAD TO BE
VACCINATED AND, THEREFORE, COULD
HAVE A DECREASED LIKELIHOOD OF
PASSING ON COVID TO MY MOTHER I
WOULD MOST DEFINITELY BE IN A
SITUATION WHERE I WOULD BELIEVE
THAT HAVING VACCINES CERTIFICATES
FOR CARE WORKERS WAS REALLY
IMPORTANT. WITH ANOTHER HAT
ON. AS MY EQUITY HAT ON, I KNOW
THAT HAVING VACCINE PASSPORTS
WILL LEAD TO DOUBLE DISCRIMINATION
FOR SOME POPULATIONS.
INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS,
RACIALIZED POPULATIONS AND OTHER
POPULATIONS WHO HAVE LOWER
LEVELS OF VACCINATION FOR
VARIOUS REASONS.
AND SO SOME OF MY CAUTION AROUND
IT IS AROUND THINKING THROUGH
WHETHER WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING WE
POSSIBLY CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT
WE DO NOT END UP WITH DOUBLE
DISCRIMINATION IN CERTAIN
POPULATIONS.
AND SO I'M DEFINITELY VERY
WORRIED ABOUT THAT.
AND WORRIED AND WANT TO MAKE
SURE THAT ALL GOVERNMENTS ARE
DOING ENOUGH TO TRY TO GIVE
EVERYBODY EQUITABLE ACCESS TO
VACCINATIONS BECAUSE THEY
HAVEN'T HAD EQUITABLE ACCESS TO
VACCINATIONS AND TO POPULATIONS
WHO ARE REALLY HESITANT.
I THINK IN THE LONG TERM, IF
WE'RE LUCKY WE CAN GET TO WHERE
DENMARK IS, THROUGH A CONSENSUS
APPROACH TO THEIR PANDEMIC.
THEY'VE GOT TO A POINT WHERE
THEY'RE LIFTING ALMOST ALL
RESTRICTIONS JUST AT THE MOMENT
WITH HIGH LEVELS OF VACCINATION.
AND SO IT WOULD BE GREAT IF WE
COULD ALSO GET TO THAT LEVEL.

Paikin states,
I GOT ABOUT A MINUTE
AND CHANGE LEFT AND I WANT TO
PUT ON THE RECORD HERE WHAT THE
ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
HAD TO SAY ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
HERE IS THEIR STATEMENT:

Text reads, “While receiving a COVID-19 vaccine remains voluntary, the OHRC takes the position that mandating and requiring proof of vaccination to protect people at work or when receiving services is generally permissible under the Human Rights Code (Code) as long as protections are put in place to make sure people who are unable to be vaccinated for Code-related reasons are reasonably accommodated. This applies to all organizations.
Receiving a COVID-19 vaccine is voluntary. At the same time, the OHRC’s position is that a person who chooses not to be vaccinated, based on personal preference does not have the right to accommodation under the code.”

Paikin adds,
OKAY. STEVE, MAYBE GIVE YOU THE
LAST WORD ON THIS.
CAN YOU -- I MEAN PRESUMABLY
THIS IS THE ROAD FORWARD.
THIS IS HAPPENING.
THESE VACCINATIONS ARE HAPPENING
BECAUSE BUSINESSES ARE DEMANDING
THEM AS OPPOSED TO GOVERNMENTS
ARE FORCING THEM UPON US.
IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Steve answers,
YEAH, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY.
AND I THINK IT'S ALSO FAIR TO
SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE JUST NEED
SOME WAY TO GO FORWARD.
WE NEED A SOCIETY TO FEEL LIKE
THERE'S SOMETHING WE CAN DO AND
IT'S PERFECTLY REASONABLE.
I UNDERSTAND THE THINGS ANN SAYS
AND IF IT WAS THE CASE THAT NOT
GETTING THE VACCINE HAD NO
FURTHER CONSEQUENCES, THEN I
WOULD BE FAR MORE EMPATHETIC AND
FAR MORE WILLING.
BUT BY NOT HAVING THE VACCINE,
YOU'RE PUTTING OTHERS AT RISK.
AND THESE WHEN YOU START TO SAY
OH, BUT WE HAVE NO LONG-TERM
DATA.
I AGREE WE HAVE NO LONG-TERM
DATA BUT WE HAVE NO REASON TO
FEEL IT WOULD BE WORRISOME.
AND SO, THEREFORE, WHEN OTHERS
ARE BEING PUT AT RISK, YES, I
THINK THE MAJORITY IN A
DEMOCRACY HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY,
HEY, WE WANT OUR SAFETY AND
SECURITY AND WE WANT OUR
ECONOMIC FREEDOM.
AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS
TO GET PAST THIS VIRUS.
THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS
THROUGH VACCINATION.
SO, YES, I AGREE WITH KWAME.
WE WANT TO USE THE EMOTIONAL
LEVER TO GET THEM THERE BUT WE
ALSO WANT TO TREAT THEM WITH
FULL RESPECT, GIVE THEM THE FULL
INFORMATION THEY NEED TO FEEL
LIKE THIS IS A GOOD DECISION.
BUT WE CAN'T JUST SORT OF SPIN
AND ARGUE AND MEANWHILE ALLOW
THE VIRUS TO DO ITS THING.
OR IT'S GOING TO BE BAD, BAD
NEWS.

Paikin says,
AND THAT'S OUR TIME, EVERYBODY.
I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR
PARTICIPATING IN A TRULY
IMPORTANT AND EMOTIONAL
CONVERSATION THAT I SUSPECT IS
HAPPENING ACROSS SOCIETY AS WE
SPEAK.
DR. KWAME MCKENZIE, STEVE
JOORDENS, ANN CAVOUKIAN, KERRY
BOWMAN.
GOOD OF ALL OF YOU TO JOIN US ON
TVO TONIGHT, THANKS SO MUCH.

The guests reply, THANK YOU.

Text reads, “Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us? Produced by: Sandra Gionas @sandragionas

Watch: Are Vaccine Passports Dividing Us?