Transcript: Police, protests, and other stories from The Agenda's week | Oct 08, 2021

Nam Kiwanuka stands in the Agenda studio. A monitor behind her reads “the week in review”. Nam wears a bright blue blazer with white buttons over her black and white striped shirt. She holds a few white papers.

Nam begins,
"THE AGENDA" THIS WEEK
LEARNED WHY HOUSING SHORTAGES
AREN'T JUST A PROBLEM IN CANADA.
AND HEARD ABOUT SOME NEW
TECHNOLOGIES FOR THE FIGHT
AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE.
"THE AGENDA'S" WEEK IN REVIEW
BEGINS ASKING HOW SHOULD POLICE
HANDLE PROTESTERS.

Text reads, “the week in review”

Steve Paikin sits at the Agenda news desk wearing a grey suit and tie. He
interviews a dark-haired woman wearing red eyeglasses and pink
headphones.

Text reads, “How should Police Handle Protests? Keeping the Peace?”

Paikin says,
LET'S TAKE SOME LITTLE
LOOK SEE HERE AT SOME PICTURES
THAT YOU SHOT.
I GUESS THIS IS A LITTLE OVER A
WEEK AGO AT THE EATON CENTRE IN
DOWNTOWN TORONTO AND THEN WE'LL
COME BACK AND CHAT.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD.

Footage shows protesters clashing with police officers. Unmasked people try to push their way into the Eaton Centre shopping mall as security guards attempt to close the doors. Others nearby film with their phones. A grey-haired man slaps a policeman in the chest.

(Crowd noise)

Paikin responds,
OKAY. TO THE AVERAGE OBSERVER,
KARINA THAT LOOKS LIKE A BIT OF A
DEMONSTRATION THAT IS PERHAPS ON
THE VERGE OF GETTING A LITTLE
OUT OF HAND.
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING THERE THAT
GOES BEYOND THAT?

Text reads, “Caryma Sa’d, Lawyer”

Caryma replies,
I AM SEEING PEOPLE TRYING TO
FORCE THEIR WAY INTO THE EATON
CENTRE.
AND IN SO DOING, THERE ARE
ASSAULTS ON SECURITY GUARDS,
ASSAULTS ON POLICE.
AND REALLY JUST A GENERAL
RECKLESSNESS FOR PUBLIC HEALTH
AND SAFETY.
AND THIS WAS ONE OF THE
ESCALATIONS THAT I'VE OBSERVED.
SO OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS,
IT'S RANGED FROM YELLING AT
STRANGERS ON THE STREET TO THE
OCCASIONAL PHYSICAL
CONFRONTATION.
AND THAT ESCALATION IS
CONCERNING.

Paikin replies,
YOU JUST USED THE WORD
"ASSAULT" TO DESCRIBE WHAT YOU
SAW. THAT'S A LEGAL TERM.
DO YOU KNOW IF, IN FACT, ANYONE
WAS CHARGED WITH ASSAULT ON THAT
OCCASION?

Caryma answers,
THERE WERE AT LEAST TWO
PEOPLE CHARGED WITH ASSAULT.
BUT IF WE LOOK CLOSELY AT THE
VIDEO, I THINK THAT THERE ARE A
FEW MORE WHO COULD HAVE
RECEIVED CHARGES.
AND I'M NOT ONE TO CALL FOR
HEAVY-HANDED POLICE ACTION.
BUT I THINK THAT THE POLICE
RESPONSE OVERALL TO ANTI-VAXX
DEMONSTRATIONS HAS EMBOLDENED
THE PROTESTERS. AND, YOU KNOW,
I'LL USE THE WORD "ESCALATION"
AGAIN. BECAUSE I THINK THAT
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

Paikin says,
OKAY. YOU BETTER FOLLOW UP ON
THAT. BECAUSE ARE YOU SUGGESTING
THAT THE POLICE'S BEHAVIOUR -- THAT
THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE RESPONDED
TO THE ANTI-VAXX PROTESTS HAS,
IN FACT, ENCOURAGED THEM TO GET
MORE VIOLENT?

Caryma responds,
I THINK THAT THAT'S A POSSIBILITY.
I THINK THERE ARE VARIOUS
FACTORS AND VARIABLES AT PLAY.
BUT IF WE COMPARE SOME OF THE
POLICE RESPONSE TO THE ANTI-VAXX
PROTESTS, VERSUS BEHAVIOUR IN
OTHER SITUATIONS SUCH AS
ENCAMPMENTS, I THINK THAT
THERE'S A VERY CLEAR DIFFERENCE
AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS
TO BE LOOK THE AT.
AND EVEN SPEAKING TO POLICE
OFFICERS DURING THESE ANTI-VAXX
PROTESTS, IT REALLY TENDED TO BE
A HANDS-OFF APPROACH. WE
RESPECT THE RIGHT TO PROTEST
WHICH IS NOT INHERENTLY A
PROBLEMATIC THING.
BUT, AGAIN, THE DISCREPANCY IN
TREATMENT, I THINK IS SOMETHING
THAT HAS EMBOLDENED PEOPLE.

Paikin continues as he interviews a bald-headed man wearing a grey tie over his white dress shirt.

Text reads, “How Should Police Handle Protests? Balancing Safety with the Right to Assemble”

Paikin asks,
YOU HAVE HEARD THE ALLEGATION
THAT NOT ALL POLICE OFFICERS IN
ALL POLICE SERVICES ACROSS THIS
COUNTRY HANDLE ALL PROTESTS
CIRCUMSTANCES, THE SAME.
AND WE HAVE HEARD THE
ALLEGATION, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
WHEN IT COMES TO, SAY, CLEARING
HOMELESS SHELTERS OUT OF A
PUBLIC PARK, THE POLICE MAY BE A
LOT MORE DIRECT AND A LOT MORE
FORCEFUL AND AT THE END OF THE
DAY MAY MAKE MANY MORE ARRESTS
THAN THEY WOULD, FOR EXAMPLE,
IN THE CASE OF TRYING TO PREVENT
ANTI-VAXX PROTESTERS FROM
ENTERING A SHOPPING MALL.
THE EXAMPLE I JUST GAVE.
YOU'VE HEARD THAT ALLEGATION DO
YOU THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO
IT?

Text reads, “Rob Farrer, National Police Federation”

Rob responds,
I HAVE HEARD THAT ALLEGATION.
BUT I THINK THERE ARE MANY MORE
ASPECTS TO THAT.
YOU KNOW, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT
THAT GROUP IS DOING.
SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, IN THE
FIRST EXAMPLE, EACH SITUATION
WILL BE DIFFERENT.
THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE MOVING
OUT OF A PARK, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
MIGHT BE THEIR ENTIRE --
EVERYTHING THEY OWN IS THERE.
AND SO THE CHANCE OF THAT
GETTING MORE EMOTIONAL AND MORE
EMOTIONALLY CHARGED AS A
SITUATION IS PROBABLY HIGHER.
SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, OUR
OFFICERS ATTEND MILLIONS OF
CALLS A YEAR.
AND THAT INCLUDES SITUATIONS
WHERE YOU'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO
MOVE ALONG.
AND I THINK THEY'RE VERY
PROFESSIONAL IN HOW THEY DO THAT
AND SOMETIMES THERE ARE COURT
INJUNCTIONS INVOLVED IN THOSE.
SO SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, THE
ABILITY TO ENFORCING SOMETHING
IS GREATER IN DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.
SO THE PARK EXAMPLE, THERE MIGHT
BE A BYLAW THAT SAYS PEOPLE
CAN'T BE THERE AND SETTING UP
CAMP DURING THE DAYTIME HOURS
VERSUS A PROTEST IN A STREET
AND THERE MAY NOT BE A BYLAW
THAT SAYS YOU CAN'T BE THERE.
SO, LIKE, THERE ARE VERY, VERY
MANY DIFFERENT FACETS TO THAT.
BUT I WOULD SAY, ON THE WHOLE,
OUR MEMBERS ARE VERY
PROFESSIONAL AND DEAL WITH EACH
SITUATION AS IT COMES.

Paikin replies,
I APPRECIATE THE NUANCE YOU JUST
GAVE IN THAT EXAMPLE. BUT THAT
DOESN'T QUITE -- YOU'LL FORGIVE
ME. I DON'T THINK THAT QUITE GETS
AT IT.
BECAUSE THE ALLEGATION IN THIS
CASE IS THERE ARE MANY MORE
POLICE OFFICERS WHO MAY BE IN
SYMPATHY THEMSELVES WITH THE
MESSAGE BEHIND THE ANTI-VAXX
DEMONSTRATORS AND THAT'S WHY
THEY CUT THEM A LITTLE MORE
SLACK THAN THEY WOULD, SAY, THE
HOMELESS PEOPLE WHO ARE GATHERED
IN THEIR TENTS IN A PUBLIC PARK
FOR WHOM THE PLUS, LET'S SAY,
HAVE LESS PERSONAL SYMPATHY.
THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Rob states,
NO, I DON'T THINK IS FAIR TO
SAY. I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY I
DON'T AGREE IT IS SO.
YOU KNOW, OUR POLICE OFFICERS
ACROSS CANADA -- AND WE HAVE A
RULE OF LAW IN CANADA AND
PROFESSIONAL POLICE OFFICERS.
AND WE SEE COUNTRIES AROUND A
THE WORLD WHERE THAT IS NOT THE
CASE.
YOU KNOW, WE DON'T -- INDIVIDUAL
OFFICERS HAVE INDIVIDUAL BELIEFS
ON MANY, MANY DIFFERENT AREAS.
AND IF THAT WAS WHAT DETERMINED
THEIR INVOLVEMENT IN MANY
SCENARIOS, THAT WOULD BE VERY
CHALLENGING.
THEY SET THOSE ASIDE AND THEY
DEAL WITH THE SITUATION
PROFESSIONALLY.
AND THAT IS A REQUIREMENT.
IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT THEN YOU'RE
IN THE WRONG OCCUPATION.

Text reads, “the week in review”

Steve Paikin interviews a dark-haired woman with glasses and a man with slicked-back greying hair and a blue blazer. Paikin sits at the Agenda desk, wearing a blue suit and a blue tie.

Text reads, “Explaining the Housing Shortage. It’s Not Just Us”

Paikin asks,
MIKE, WHY HAS SUPPLY
BECOME SUCH AN ISSUE OF LATE?

Text reads, “Mike Moffatt, Western University”

Mike replies,
WELL, I'D ACTUALLY SAY THAT
THIS ISSUE GOES BACK TO ABOUT
2015 IN ONTARIO.
AND IT'S ALL DUE TO POPULATION
GROWTH. ONTARIO TYPICALLY
GROWS BY ABOUT A HUNDRED TO A
HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND
PEOPLE EVERY SINGLE YEAR AND
WE DID RATHER CONSISTENTLY.
BUT WE HAD SOME POLICY CHANGES
STARTING IN 2015: INCREASED
IMMIGRATION TARGETS AND ALSO
MORE ATTRACTIVE MARKET FOR
INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS.
WE BASICALLY CHANGED HOW LONG
INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS CAN STAY
IN THE PROVINCE AFTER THEY
GRADUATE.
SO ALL OF A SUDDEN WE WENT FROM
GROWING AT ABOUT A HUNDRED AND
TWENTY THOUSAND PEOPLE PEOPLE
A YEAR TO TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND
PEOPLE A YEAR. SO WE'VE GROWN BY
ALMOST A MILLION PEOPLE OVER
THE LAST FIVE YEARS.
IF WE COMPARE THE LAST
FIVE YEARS TO THE PREVIOUS FIVE
YEARS, WE'VE HAD THREE HUNDRED
THOUSAND EXTRA PEOPLE IN THE
PROVINCE. BUT WE'VE ONLY BUILT
ABOUT THIRTY THOUSAND
EXTRA HOMES AND MOST OF
THOSE ARE ONE-BEDROOM CONDOS.
YOU DO THE MATH THERE THAT'S
NINE OR TEN EXTRA PEOPLE FOR
EVERY ONE-BEDROOM CONDO.
THAT IS GOING TO GET YOU A
HOUSING SHORTAGE.

Paikin responds,
WHY IS IT THAT SOMEWHERE ALONG
THE WAY DECISION MAKERS DIDN'T
SAY TO THEMSELVES WE'RE INVITING
A WHOLE LOT OF EXTRA PEOPLE
IN HERE AND WE’RE NOT GIVING THEM
ANYWHERE TO LIVE. WHY DIDN'T THEY
MAKE THAT COMPUTATION?

Mike answers,
WELL, IT'S THIS FANTASTIC PROBLEM
THAT WE HAVE IN CANADA ABOUT
JURISDICTIONALITY. SO, WE HAVE
A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
THAT SETS RULES AROUND
IMMIGRATION AND INTERNATIONAL
STUDENT POLICY. THEN WE HAVE
THE PROVINCE WHO SET
THEIR SORT OF GROWTH PLANS AND
NEEDS TO SORT OF ADJUST FOR THAT
ACCORDINGLY.
WE HAVE COLLEGES AND
UNIVERSITIES BRINGING IN
INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS. AND
THEN WE HAD THE MUNICIPALITIES
MAKING THEIR PLANS OFF OF THE
PROVINCIAL GROWTH PLAN.
AND ALL OF THAT TAKES TIME.
AND IF WE LOOK AT PROVINCIAL
GROWTH -- OR MUNICIPAL GROWTH
PLANS ACROSS THE PROVINCE, SOME
OF THESE ARE ANYWHERE FROM FIVE
TO FIFTEEN YEARS OUT OF DATE.
THEY DON'T INCORPORATE THE NEW
IMMIGRATION TARGETS, ALL THOSE
CHANGES THAT ARE GOING ON.
AND IT ALL GOES TO THE SORT OF
JURISDICTIONAL PROBLEM WHERE
DIFFERENT LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT
ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DIFFERENT
THINGS.
AND THEY DON'T NECESSARILY
INTERACT WELL WITH EACH OTHER.

Paikin says,
GOTCHA. JENNY MAYBE YOU CAN GIVE
US THE LAY OF THE LAND IN THE UNITED
STATES AND IN PARTICULAR, WHAT
STATES THE HOUSING SHORTAGE IS
PARTICULARLY ACUTE.

Text reads, “Jenny Schuetz, Brookings Institution”

Jenny replies,
WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR DYNAMICS
AS CANADA AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL.
HOUSING PRICES ARE UP 13% YEAR
OVER YEAR WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY
FASTER THAN PEOPLE'S WAGES ARE
GROWING. AND WE HAVE SIMILAR
KINDS OF ISSUES ON THE SUPPLY
SIDE PLUS DEMAND-SIDE ISSUES
AS WELL. SO, WE'RE SANDWICHED
BETWEEN TWO HISTORICALLY
LARGE GENERATIONS, THE BOOMERS
AT THE OLDER END, AND THE
MILLENNIALS ON THE YOUNGER SIDE.
IT’S JUST A LOT OF PEOPLE.
MILLENNIALS, IN PARTICULAR,
ARE REACHING OUT IN
PEAK HOME-BUYING YEARS GETTING
READY TO MOVE OUT OF THE ONE
BEDROOM APARTMENT, BUY THEIR
FIRST HOUSE AND HAVE A LITTLE
EXTRA SPACE AND THERE AREN'T
ENOUGH HOMES TO ACCOMMODATE ALL
THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LIVE
THERE.
THIS HAS BEEN TRADITIONALLY TRUE
IN PLACES LIKE NEW YORK, SAN
FRANCISCO, AND BOSTON.
BUT WE'RE ACTUALLY SEEING VERY
RAPID HOME PRICE GROWTH IN SOME
OF THE SMALLER METROS. PLACES
LIKE BOISE, IDAHO, AUSTIN, TEXAS,
DENVER, COLORADO. THOSE ARE
SEEING NOW THE UPWARD
PRESSURE ON HOUSING PRICES THAT
WE MOSTLY ASSOCIATE WITH THE BIG
COASTAL CITIES AND THE BIG
QUESTION IS WILL BOISE BECOME
SAN FRANCISCO IN TEN YEARS.

Paikin adds,
THIS IS NOT JUST A BLUE STATE THING,
THIS IS HAPPENING IN RED STATES, TOO.

Jenny responds,
ABSOLUTELY. WE'VE SEEN SOME OF
THE STRONGEST RATES OF POPULATION
GROWTH AND DEMAND IN PLACES
LIKE TEXAS AND ARIZONA.
THE SUNBELT STATES HAVE VERY
STRONG DEMAND FOR HOUSING.
THEY'VE TRADITIONALLY BUILT
ENOUGH HOUSING TO ACCOMMODATE
GROWTH, BUT THEY JUST HAVEN'T BEEN
ABLE TO KEEP UP THE LAST COUPLE OF
YEARS.

Paikin says,
OK, I’M GOING TO ASK OUR DIRECTOR
SHELDON OSMOND, IF HE WOULD, TO
BRING UP THE CHART ON PAGE TWO.
THIS IS HOUSING UNITS PER
THOUSAND POPULATION IN G7
COUNTRIES.
AND WE'RE GOING TO COMPARE JUST
A HALF A DOZEN OR SO MAJOR
COUNTRIES.
FRANCE, DENMARK, JAPAN, THE U.K.,
THE U.S., AND CANADA. AND FOR
THOSE LISTENING ON PODCAST
AND WHO CAN'T SEE THE BAR GRAPHS
HERE, FRANCE SEEMS TO BE DOING
MUCH BETTER THAN MOST IN TERMS
OF BUILDING ADEQUATE HOUSING PER
THOUSAND POPULATION. DENMARK IN
SECOND. JAPAN IN THIRD.
ALL OF THOSE COUNTRIES ABOVE THE
G7 AVERAGE.
BUT THEN YOU GET TO THE U.K.,
THE U.S., AND CANADA.
AND WE ARE ALL BUILDING LESS
THAN THE AVERAGE HOME BUILDING
THAT IS TAKING PLACE IN THE G7.
AND, JENNY, WE HEARD SOME OF THE
EXPLANATIONS FOR WHY IT'S THAT
WAY IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
MAYBE YOU IF YOU COULD BROADEN
THE MICROSCOPE A BIT AND TELL US
WHY IT WOULD BE THIS WAY ACROSS
THE G7 IN SO MANY PLACES.

Jenny states,
NOTICE THAT WHAT WE'RE
PARTICULARLY SEEING IS TIGHT
RESTRICTIONS ON SUPPLY IN THE
IN THE ANGLO COUNTRIES AND
THAT'S BECAUSE THEY SHARE A
SIMILAR APPROACH TO LAND USE
GOVERNANCE AND DEVELOPMENT.
IN PARTICULAR, THEY'VE CHOSEN TO
DEVOLVE LAND USE AND DEVELOPMENT
TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND THE
PROCESS TENDS TO EMPOWER
EXISTING RESIDENTS.
SO PEOPLE WHO ALREADY LIVE IN A
COMMUNITY DON'T NECESSARILY WANT
MORE HOUSES ADDED.
THEY'RE VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT
PROPERTY VALUES SO THEY DON'T
WANT RENTAL HOUSING ADDED.
AND THOSE EXISTING HOMEOWNERS
COME OUT TO COMMUNITY MEETINGS
AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THINGS AND
PUSH BACK. THAT TENDS TO BLOCK
DEVELOPMENT OR DELAY IT, DRAGGING
OUT THE PROCESS AND MAKING IT
MORE EXPENSIVE. AND IF YOU THINK
ABOUT WHO WOULD BENEFIT FROM
BUILDING HOMES IT'S USUALLY
PEOPLE WHO DON'T ALREADY LIVE IN
THE COMMUNITY.

Text reads, “the week in review”

Steve Paikin sits at the agenda desk wearing a blue suit and tie.

Text reads, “Climate Technologies to the Rescue. Hopes and Fears”

Paikin asks,
DAVID, START US OFF ON A DISCUSSION
ABOUT NUCLEAR ENERGY.
DO WE NEED MORE OF IT TO HELP US
GET THROUGH THE CLIMATE CRISIS?

Text reads, “David Keith, Harvard University”

David sits in an office. Books and wine bottles fill the shelves. David wears a patterned white shirt with the top two buttons undone. His greying hair thins at the top. David’s blue eyes look through clear-framed glasses.

David answers,
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE
NUCLEAR POWER BECAUSE IT HAS A
LOW LAND FOOTPRINT. AND
SO IF YOU ARE GOING TO -- I
THINK ONE CHALLENGE OF
DECARBONIZATION IS THAT THERE IS
NO QUESTION WE CAN BE
DECARBONIZED WITHOUT NUCLEAR
POWER.
THE ABSOLUTELY STUNNING
IMPROVEMENTS IN THE COST OF
SOLAR MEAN THAT THE PATHWAY TO
LARGE SCALE SOLAR LOOKS MUCH
MORE REAL THAN IT DID TEN YEARS
AGO.
AND MY VIEW IS THAT THERE IS NO
NECESSITY FOR NUCLEAR.
BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER
TECHNOLOGIES LIKE HYDRO AND WIND
AND BIOMASS, WHICH HAVE
COMPARATIVELY BIG LAND AND
ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINTS.
I DO THINK ESPECIALLY IN COLD
PLACES WITH WINTERS LIKE CANADA,
IF YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT WAYS
TO SOLVE THE CLIMATE PROBLEM,
THAT IS, STOP PUTTING CO2 IN THE AIR
AND ALSO REDUCE OTHER
ENVIRONMENTAL HARMS I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT TO TAKE NUCLEAR
SERIOUSLY.
BUT THAT SAID, IF YOU ASKED ME HOW
DO IT? HOW PRACTICALLY,
LIKE WHICH REACTOR TECHNOLOGY
AND WHAT GOVERNMENT POLICY AND
WHAT WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE
PUBLIC COULD GET TO SOMETHING
THAT EXACTLY AS HOLLY SAID, IS A
SOCIO-TECHNICAL SYSTEM THAT
MAKES NUCLEAR WORK I HAVE NO IDEA.
EVERY ELEMENT IS BROKEN.
PUBLIC TRUST IS BROKEN.
THE COMPANIES THAT DEVELOP THESE
TECHNOLOGY IN SOME WAYS HAVE
DONE A TERRIBLE JOB. I ALSO HAVE
HORRIFIC EXPERIENCES OF BEING ON
A TOP PANEL IN CANADA AND TALKING
TO PEOPLE AT THE CANADIAN NUCLEAR
INDUSTRY HAVE, LITERALLY, NO
EXAGGERATION, BEING LIED TO.
SO MY FAITH AS SOMEONE WHO IS A
PHYSICIST AND PRO-NUCLEAR IN ACL
WENT TO ZERO IN THAT EXPERIENCE.
SO, WE’VE GOT BROKEN TRUST, HIGH
COST AND PROBLEMS.
YET I STILL THINK THERE ACTUALLY
IS SOME REAL USE FOR DEVELOPING
NUCLEAR POWER IN A CLIMATE
FUTURE.
AND IT'S A BIG CHALLENGE TO
FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT.

Paikin adds,
ACL BEING THE ATOMIC
ENERGY OF CANADA, THE ONCE UPON
A TIME CROWN CORPORATION. OKAY
HOLLY, YOU ARE LITERALLY A HOP,
SKIP AND JUMP AWAY FROM THE
ONTARIO BORDER.
AND WE DEPEND ON NUCLEAR FOR
ABOUT HALF OF OUR ENERGY MIX.
MAYBE SOME DAYS MORE THAN HALF
OF OUR ELECTRICITY MIX HERE IN
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT IT IS IN NEW
YORK STATE WHERE YOU ARE.
BUT IS IT AN OPTION DO YOU THINK
TO HELP GET US OUT OF THE
CLIMATE CRISIS?

Text reads, “Holly Buck, University of Buffalo”

Holly sits in front of a brown wall with leaf-patterned wallpaper. A plant and a blue wing-back chair line the wall. Holly wears her dark hair tied in a bun. A brown blazer bunches on her shoulders as white earbuds hang from her ears.

Holly replies,
YES, I DO. I DON'T THINK IT'S
PERFECT. I THINK WE'RE OUT OF
PERFECT OPTIONS. AND I'M VERY
CONCERNED AS A SOCIOLOGIST
ABOUT SOCIAL BACKLASH TO HIGHER
PRICES OR LACK OF RELIABILITY
ENERGY WE'VE SEEN SOME
FLUCTUATIONS LATELY. WITH
BLACKOUTS, WITH GAS SHORTAGES
IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.
NUCLEAR COULD BE A SOLUTION TO
THAT. AND IF WE DON'T FIX THAT
SOON, I THINK ALL OF OUR
DECARBONIZATION GOALS COULD
BE THREATENED.

Paikin asks,
MARCUS, WHAT'S YOUR
TAKE ON NUCLEAR?

Text reads, “Marcus Extavour, XPRIZE”

Marcus sits in a home office. Colourful paintings hang from the beige-coloured wall. Marcus wears a white t-shirt. His long dark hair is styled into an afro.

Marcus responds,
YOU KNOW, SOMEWHAT SIMILAR.
SCIENTISTS IN ME SEES THAT IT'S
A LOW FOOTPRINT, LOW CARBON
ELECTRICITY SOURCE.
AND IF OUR GOAL IS LOOKING AT
CLIMATE OR SPECIFICALLY LOOKING
AT GREENHOUSE GAS LOAD IT'S
SOMETHING WE HAVE TO TAKE
SERIOUSLY.
BUT I GREW UP IN ONTARIO. I LIVE
IN NOW CALIFORNIA WHERE THERE IS
A DISCUSSION OF CLOSING NUCLEAR
FACILITIES.
I'M ALWAYS STRUCK AT HOW MUCH
DISSONANCE THERE DISSONANCE
BETWEEN THE SCIENCE VIEW OF
THINGS AND WHAT THE GENERAL
PERSON THAT WILL ASK “HEY, WHAT
DO YOU THINK ABOUT NUCLEAR
POWER” IS. A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST
THINK IT'S DISASTROUS, THEY THINK
IT’S A SYMBOL OF THE WORST
EXCESSES OF OUR INDUSTRIAL
AGE. I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY.
I THINK IT CAN HAVE A FUTURE.
BUT I AGREE THAT WE DON'T HAVE A
LOT OF PUBLIC SPACE TO ACTUALLY
HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.
AND IT'S POSSIBLE WE MAY NOT BE
ABLE TO NAVIGATE THROUGH THAT.
IT'S HARD TO SAY. BUT I THINK IT
CAN HAVE A FUTURE BUT IT WILL BE
PRETTY TRICKY.

Paikin replies, GOTCHA.

The monitor reads “the week in review”

Nam says,
THAT'S JUST SOME OF WHAT
WE COVERED THIS WEEK ON "THE
AGENDA."
FOR MORE, INCLUDING THE FULL
CONVERSATIONS, YOU CAN VISIT OUR
WEBSITE TVO.ORG.
OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AT
YOUTUBE.COM/THEAGENDA OR OUR
TWITTER FEED AT
TWITTER.COM/THEAGENDA.

Watch: Police, protests, and other stories from The Agenda's week