Transcript: Navigating Ontario's Fourth Wave | Aug 20, 2021

Nam Kiwanuka sits behind a glass desk in a tv studio. Warmly lit blue panels, and a monitor displaying the red lower-case ‘a’ Agenda logo are behind her.
Nam wears a black blazer over a white blouse with pink and red floral patterns.
She has shoulder length brown hair and wears dark-rimmed glasses.

Nam says, IT'S BEEN A TWO-DOSE
SUMMER FOR MANY OF US, BUT THAT
HASN'T STOPPED A DREADED FOURTH
WAVE FROM MAKING LANDFALL.
HOW DIFFERENT WILL THIS ONE BE,
AND WHAT'S NEEDED TO KEEP IT IN
CHECK?
LET'S ASK DR. ISAAC BOGOCH, INFECTIOUS
DISEASES PHYSICIAN AT THE
UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK AND A
SCIENTIST BASED OUT OF TORONTO
GENERAL HOSPITAL AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, WHO JOINS
US NOW FROM THE PROVINCIAL
CAPITAL.
HI, DR. BOGOCH.
IT'S REALLY NICE TO SEE YOU
AGAIN.

Dr. Bogoch sits in a doctor’s office. Medical certificates hang on a wall behind him.

Dr. Bogoch wears a white lab coat over a green and white plaid shirt. He has short wavy brown hair.

Dr. Bogoch says, GREAT TO
SEE YOU AS WELL.

Nam says, SO ARE WE IN THE
FOURTH WAVE OF THIS PANDEMIC?

Dr. Bogoch says, YEAH, WE ARE, WE ABSOLUTELY
ARE.
WE'RE WATCHING CASES RISE IN
ONTARIO.
WE'RE WATCHING CASES RISE IN
MOST PARTS OF CANADA.
IT'S NOT QUITE CLEAR HOW HIGH
THEY'RE GOING TO GET AND
OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE STEPS WE CAN
TAKE TO MITIGATE THE RISE OF
CASES BUT, YEAH, WE ARE IN THE
FOURTH WAVE.
IT IS STARTING.

Nam asks, WHAT DEFINES THIS AS A
FOURTH WAVE?

Text reads, Navigating Ontario’s Fourth Wave. Still in a Pandemic.

Dr. Bogoch says, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOTHING FANCY,
RIGHT?
WHEN YOU LOOK AT A GRAPH AND
YOU'VE GOT TIME ON THE X AXIS
AND CASES ON THE Y AXIS, YOU
LOOK AT CASES OVER TIME.
WE'RE WATCHING THIS RISE UP, AND
THAT'S A WAVE.

Text reads, Isaac Bogoch, Toronto General Hospital.

Dr. Bogoch continues, NOW, IT DOESN'T TELL YOU HOW BIG
THE WAVE IS GOING TO GET.
IT MIGHT BE A BIG WAVE.
IT COULD BE A WAVE LIFT.
BUT THERE CERTAINLY IS A RISE IN
CASES AND IT'S NOT A PERFECT
SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION.
IT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT APPEARS
LIKE ON A GRAPH.

Nam says, I THINK A LOT OF US
DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO FEEL
ABOUT BEING IN A FOURTH WAVE.
WE, I THINK -- MAYBE WE THOUGHT
BECAUSE WE HAD THE VACCINES THAT
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE
WOULDN'T BE HAVING TO DEAL WITH
RIGHT NOW.
IN WHAT WAYS HAS THE DELTA
VARIANT CHANGED THE PANDEMIC?

Text reads, Isaac Bogoch, University Health Network.

Dr. Bogoch says, YEAH, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT
THE DELTA WAVE IS, YOU KNOW,
VERY SIGNIFICANT IN THAT DELTA
IS JUST A MORE CONTAGIOUS
VARIANT OF THE VIRUS.
IT IS.
THERE'S NO DENYING IT.
IT IS A REALLY, REALLY
CONTAGIOUS VARIANT.
THERE'S STILL DEBATE TO WHAT
EXTENT THIS MIGHT CAUSE MORE
SIGNIFICANT ILLNESS.
THERE'S SOME DATA DEMONSTRATING
IT DOES.
THERE'S OTHERS THAT DEMONSTRATE
THAT IT DOESN'T.
BUT IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT IT
DEFINITELY IS MORE CONTAGIOUS.
THERE'S JUST LESS WIGGLE ROOM,
RIGHT?
THERE'S LESS ROOM FOR ERROR.
IF PEOPLE ARE EXPOSED TO THIS,
THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO GET IT
VERSUS OTHER PRIOR VARIANTS.
AND THAT'S TOUGH BECAUSE, AS YOU
POINT OUT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE
WIDESPREAD VACCINE ROLLOUT,
WIDESPREAD VACCINE AVAILABILITY,
AND IT'S ALSO FAIR TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE VACCINES
ARE WORKING, RIGHT?
THEY'RE DOING A GREAT JOB.
TONS OF PEOPLE, OVER 80% OF
ELIGIBLE PEOPLE IN ONTARIO HAVE
COME OUT AND RECEIVED AT LEAST A
FIRST DOSE OF A VACCINE.
LIKE, CONGRATULATIONS.
YOU'VE DONE A TREMENDOUS SERVICE
FOR YOURSELF, YOUR CLOSE
CONTACTS, FOR THE PROVINCE, THE
COUNTRY.
YOU'VE DONE EVERYTHING RIGHT.
AND THAT IS DEFINITELY GOING TO
HELP AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL AND
A POPULATION LEVEL.
BUT THERE'S A DELTA VARIANT
THAT'S VERY CONTAGIOUS AND
THERE'S STILL UP TO 3 MILLION
ELIGIBLE PEOPLE IN ONTARIO THAT
HAVE YET TO BE VACCINATED.
THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE.
WITH SUCH A CONTAGIOUS VARIANT,
IF A LOT OF PEOPLE GET SICK IN A
SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, WE'RE
GOING TO SEE A RAPID RISE IN
CASES.

Nam says, AS YOU MENTIONED, I
BELIEVE IT'S 75% OF ONTARIO'S
POPULATION THAT IS ELIGIBLE TO
GET VACCINATED, HAS BEEN DOUBLE
VACCINATED.
CHILDREN UNDER 12 CAN'T GET
VACCINATED YET.
HOW IS THE DELTA VARIANT
IMPACTING CHILDREN?

Text reads, Most Are Vaccinated.

Dr. Bogoch says, WELL, IF WE LOOK IN OTHER
PARTS OF THE WORLD AND EVEN LOOK
IN CANADA, WE CAN SEE OF COURSE
KIDS CAN GET INFECTED, KIDS CAN
TRANSMIT THIS INFECTION.
THAT'S PRETTY CLEAR.
IF YOU SEE IT IN THE UNITED
STATES, ESPECIALLY THE SOUTHERN
PART OF THE UNITED STATES,
YOU'RE WATCHING PEDIATRIC
HOSPITALS FILL UP, PEDIATRIC
INTENSIVE CARE UNITS FILL UP
AND IT'S REALLY UPSETTING TO
SEE.
OBVIOUSLY. KIDS CAN GET THIS
INFECTION AND TRANSMIT THIS
INFECTION.
IT'S ALSO FAIR TO SAY THAT BY
AND LARGE, RELATIVE TO ADULTS
AND OLDER POPULATIONS, KIDS
DON'T GET THAT SICK.
BUT OF COURSE, KIDS CAN STILL GET
SICK AND LAND IN HOSPITAL.
IT'S JUST MUCH MORE RARE
COMPARED TO OLDER POPULATIONS.
BUT WHEN YOU STEP BACK AND YOU
SAY, OKAY, EVEN IF THAT'S A MORE
RARE EVENT, WHEN YOU HAVE A TON
OF KIDS THAT GET SICK, A SMALL
PERCENTAGE OF A MASSIVE NUMBER,
ENDS UP BEING STILL A VERY LARGE
NUMBER OF KIDS THAT ARE SICK
THAT LAND IN HOSPITAL AND THIS
IS WHY THEY'RE OVERWHELMING
THOSE PEDIATRIC HOSPITALS RIGHT
NOW IN MANY OF THE SOUTHERN
UNITED STATES.
SO, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE
DAY, OF COURSE WE'VE GOT TO
PROTECT EVERYBODY FROM THIS
VIRUS, INCLUDING CHILDREN, EVEN
IF THEY'RE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE A
SEVERE OUTCOME RELATIVE TO
ADULTS.
WE STILL DON'T WANT KIDS TO GET
THIS INFECTION BECAUSE SOME OF
THEM, EVEN IF IT'S A SMALLER
PERCENTAGE, MIGHT LAND IN
HOSPITAL.
WE HAVE TO PROTECT THEM FROM
THAT.
ALSO, WE KNOW A SMALL PERCENTAGE,
BUT NOT AN INSIGNIFICANT
PERCENTAGE OF THEM CAN HAVE
CHRONIC SYMPTOMS AFTER THEY
RECOVER.
WE WANT TO AVOID THAT AS WELL.
SO LET'S PROTECT OUR KIDS,
ESPECIALLY THE UNVACCINATED ONES
THAT ARE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO
THIS.

Nam says, SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN OUT
SINCE APRIL.
SCHOOL IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER
IN SEPTEMBER.
ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT A VIRUS
IN THE FALL WITH SCHOOLS
REOPENING?

Text reads, Isaac Bogoch @BogochIsaac

Dr. Bogoch says, I AM.
I MEAN, WHEN YOU PUT A LOT OF
PEOPLE TOGETHER IN AN INDOOR
SPACE WITH A VERY CONTAGIOUS
VIRUS, WE ALWAYS SHOULD BE AWARE
AND CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, AND OF
COURSE WE HAVE TO -- WE KNOW NOW
AT THIS POINT IN THE PANDEMIC
HOW TO CREATE A SAFER INDOOR
SPACE, BE IT A SCHOOL, BE IT A
HOSPITAL, BE IT A PLACE OF WORK.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE CAN TALK ABOUT
THE SCHOOL PROGRAMS AND
BACK-TO-SCHOOL SAFETY, BUT IN
GENERAL, THERE ARE ADDED
MEASURES THAT YOU CAN TAKE TO
MITIGATE THE RISK OF AN OUTBREAK
IN THAT SETTING.
AND NO ONE MEASURE IS PERFECT.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ADDED LEVELS
OF PROTECTION.
BETTER VENTILATION IN THE
CLASSROOM.
MASKING.
VACCINATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE
ELIGIBLE.
SPACING KIDS OUT AND HAVING
FEWER PEOPLE IN AN INDOOR SPACE.
COHORTING.
THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS WE CAN
DO.
BUT STILL IN GENERAL WHEN YOU
THINK ABOUT THE MILLIONS OF KIDS
IN ONTARIO THAT ARE GOING TO GO
BACK TO SCHOOL, YEAH, THERE
OBVIOUSLY IS THE POSSIBILITY FOR
OUTBREAKS, AND WE WILL SEE THEM.
JUST WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO
MITIGATE THOSE AS MUCH AS
POSSIBLE AND CREATE THE SAFEST
INDOOR SPACE THAT WE CAN.

Nam says, OF COURSE AS KIDS ARE
GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, I WANT TO
GET YOUR OPINION ON THIS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE RECENT
ONTARIO GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCEMENT
THAT HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION
WORKERS WILL HAVE TO SHOW PROOF
OF VACCINATION.
BUT IF THEY DON'T WANT TO BE
VACCINATED FOR WHATEVER REASON,
THEY HAVE A CHOICE TO DO REGULAR
TESTING?

Dr. Bogoch says, WELL, FOR STARTERS, I THINK
GETTING EVERYONE VACCINATED THAT
WORKS IN THOSE SETTINGS IS THE
RIGHT APPROACH.
IT ABSOLUTELY IS.
WE'VE GOT TO HAVE AS MANY
VACCINATED AS POSSIBLE TO CREATE
A SAFER INDOOR ENVIRONMENT.
FULL STOP.
NOW, THERE ARE PARTS OF THIS
WHERE, YOU KNOW, I'M WELL
OUTSIDE OF MY LEVEL OF EXPERTISE
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT LABOUR LAW AND I THINK
WHEN WE GET THE LAWYERS
INVOLVED, IT GETS MORE
COMPLICATED, RIGHT?
CAN YOU SAY TO SOMEONE, YOU'RE
VACCINATED OR FIRED?
I'LL LEAVE THAT TO THE LAWYERS.
BUT I THINK IF WE HAVE A
POPULATION THAT FOR WHATEVER
REASON HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED,
EITHER BY CHOICE OR BECAUSE
THERE'S A MEDICAL CONDITION OR
FOR WHATEVER REASON, I MEAN, A
REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE IS TO
ENSURE THAT THEY TEST NEGATIVE
BEFORE THEY WALK IN THAT
BUILDING.
NOW, IT'S NOT PERFECT, BUT I
STILL THINK IT'S A FAIRLY
REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE.
HERE'S THE DEAL: THE DEVIL'S IN
THE DETAIL, RIGHT?
THERE SHOULD BE A BIG ASTERISK
THERE.
WHAT EXACTLY IS THE PLAN FOR
PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN
VACCINATED?
IF IT INVOLVES, YOU KNOW,
TESTING DAILY BEFORE YOU WALK IN
TO WORK, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S
FAIRLY REASONABLE.
AND ACTUALLY I THINK A PROGRAM
LIKE THAT WILL PUSH A LOT OF
PEOPLE OVER TO GET VACCINATED,
RIGHT?
IF YOU HAVE TO COME IN EARLIER
BECAUSE YOU NEED A TEST AND GET
YOUR SCHNOZZ SWABBED EVERY
SINGLE DAY, I THINK THERE'S A
LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WILL SAY, NO,
THANK YOU, I'M GOING TO GET
VACCINATED.
AND THAT'S FINE.
OTHER PEOPLE WILL SAY, YOU KNOW
WHAT?
IT'S MY CHOICE AND I'M GOING TO
CHOOSE TO DO THAT AND QUITE
FRANKLY I THINK THE RISK THAT
ONE OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS BRINGS
COVID INTO A PLACE OF WORK IF
YOU TRULY HAVE A NEGATIVE TEST
BEFORE YOU WALK IN, IT'S NOT
ZERO PERCENT BUT IT'S STILL A
PRETTY LOW RISK ENDEAVOUR.
SO, I THINK THAT'S A REASONABLE
ALTERNATIVE FOR PEOPLE THAT
DON'T GET VACCINATED.

Nam says, I THINK YOU ALREADY
ANSWERED MY NEXT QUESTION, WHICH
IS I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IT'S
BEEN ON THEIR MIND, WHY GIVE
PEOPLE THE OPTION OF REGULAR
TESTING INSTEAD OF MAKING IT
COMPLETELY MANDATORY?

Dr. Bogoch says, RIGHT.
I MEAN, MAYBE IT'S MORE
PALATABLE TO BE MANDATORY IN
CERTAIN SETTINGS LIKE HEALTH
CARE SETTINGS.
BUT, AGAIN, I THINK IT'S VERY
CHALLENGING TO ACTUALLY MANDATE
THIS AND SAY, VACCINATE OR ELSE.
IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO HEAR
WHAT THE "OR ELSE" IS.
RIGHT NOW, WE'RE HEARING A LOT OF
HAWKISH TONES ABOUT YOU'VE GOT
TO GET VACCINATED OR ELSE.
WE HAVEN'T HEARD WHAT THE OR
ELSE IS.
I'M NOT GOING TO PRETEND TO BE
AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA BUT I'M
WATCHING VERY CLOSELY BECAUSE I
SUSPECT THAT THE OR ELSE IS
GOING TO BE OR ELSE GET RAPID
TESTING.
I THINK WE'LL HAVE TO SEE
ACCOMMODATIONS.
AGAIN, I'M LEANING ON THE
LAWYERS FOR THIS ONE BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, I JUST DON'T KNOW.
MY OWN BIAS IS THAT, YEAH, IF
YOU'RE WORKING IN ONE OF THESE
SETTINGS, YOU SHOULD BE
VACCINATED, FULL STOP.
IF YOU'RE NOT, OKAY, LET'S FIND
A SAFER, REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE
AND A RAPID TEST THAT'S NEGATIVE
AS YOU WALK IN I THINK IS A
PRETTY FAIR ALTERNATIVE.

Nam says, WE'VE HEARD FROM ONE
OF YOUR COLLEAGUES SAYING WE
SHOULD BE BUCKLING DOWN FOR THE
FALL AND WINTER.
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK A LOT OF US
EXPECTED TO BE IN THIS SPOT
RIGHT NOW AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT
THE LONGER THE VIRUS IS AROUND,
IT'S MUTATING INTO THESE
DIFFERENT VARIANTS.
SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING, YOU
KNOW, SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE
TO ENSURE THAT THIS THING GOES
AWAY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE IDEA OF
HAVING VACCINE PASSPORTS?

Dr. Bogoch says, FOR STARTERS THE VIRUS ISN'T
GOING AWAY.
THIS IS GOING TO BE AROUND FOR A
LONG, LONG, LONG TIME.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT VACCINE
PASSPORTS, AND WHEN I REFER TO
VACCINE PASSPORTS, I'M NOT
TALKING ABOUT PROOF OF
VACCINATION FOR INTERNAL TRAVEL,
I'M TALKING ABOUT SHOWING SOME
EVIDENCE OF VACCINATION TO
ACCESS NON-ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES
OR SOMETHING NON-ESSENTIAL IN
ONTARIO, FOR EXAMPLE.
I THINK WE SHOULD BE OPEN MINDED
TO THIS CONCEPT, RIGHT?
THERE'S A FEW SEMIRELATED
HIGH-LEVEL POINTS.
NUMBER ONE, WE HAVE, SADLY,
LIMITED HEALTH CARE CAPACITY,
ESPECIALLY ICU CAPACITY, IN
ONTARIO.
NUMBER TWO, WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE
TO LOCK DOWN EVER AGAIN.
WE KNOW HOW DETRIMENTAL
LOCKDOWNS ARE TO FINANCIAL
WELL-BEING AND BUSINESSES AND
ALSO MENTAL HEALTH.
SO WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LOCK
DOWN EVER AGAIN.
NUMBER 3, VACCINES ARE WIDELY
AVAILABLE AND THEY ARE SAFE AND
EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE.
AND I THINK IF WE HAVE -- YOU
KNOW, WHEN WE TAKE ALL THIS
TOGETHER, YOU KNOW, IF WE DO SEE
A REALLY HIGH RISE IN CASES AND
OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS
GETTING STRETCHED, I THINK WE
SHOULD CERTAINLY BE OPEN-MINDED
TO HAVING SOME PROOF OF IMMUNITY
OR SOME PROOF OF VACCINATION IN
ORDER TO CONTINUE TO GO SEE OR
PARTICIPATE IN NON-ESSENTIAL
THINGS LIKE GO TO A MOVIE, GO TO
A RESTAURANT, GOING TO A BAR.
MAYBE YOU DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER
ON THAT RIGHT NOW.
MAYBE YOU SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?
I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.
THAT'S NOT ALIGNED WITH WHAT WE
WANT TO DO.
BUT EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT THINKING OF
DOING IT NOW, AT LEAST GET THE
INFRASTRUCTURE SET UP, AT LEAST
BE PREPARED IN CASE YOU WANT TO
PIVOT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SHUT
DOWN THE ECONOMY AGAIN.
YOU CAN'T SHUT DOWN THESE
BUSINESSES AGAIN.
SO AT LEAST BE PREPARED TO DO
IT.
AT LEAST SET IT UP, TELEGRAPH
THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT, AND
THEN IF YOU NEED TO PIVOT, YOU
CAN PIVOT SUCCESSFULLY.
YOU DON'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT
FLAT-FOOTED, RIGHT?
THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU'RE
GOING TO SAY OVERNIGHT, OH, MY
GOD, WE SHOULD REALLY THINK
ABOUT THIS BECAUSE WE'RE IN A
STATE WHERE OUR HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM IS PERHAPS GETTING
STRETCHED.
YOU'VE GOT TO PREPARE.
THIS TAKES TIME TO DO.
SO (a) BE OPEN MINDED TO IT,
(b) PREPARE FOR IT (c) MAYBE
YOU'LL PULL THE TRIGGER, MAYBE
YOU WON'T, BUT YOU WON'T HAVE TO
MAKE A LAST-MINUTE DECISION.

Nam says, I'M TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT WHERE THE DISCONNECT IS
BECAUSE THE PUBLIC SEEMS TO
SUPPORT THE IDEA OF A VACCINE
PASSPORT, AND WHEN I ENROLLED MY
KIDS INTO PUBLIC SCHOOL, I HAD
TO SHOW PROOF OF IMMUNIZATION,
THAT LITTLE YELLOW CARD.
I'VE TRAVELLED OVERSEAS AND HAVE
HAD TO SHOW THAT I'VE HAD
CERTAIN VACCINES.
WHY DO YOU THINK THIS HASN'T
BEEN EMBRACED BY POLITICIANS?

Dr. Bogoch says, I HAVE NO IDEA.
I MEAN, LIKE, IF THE QUESTION IS
ASKING ME WHY ARE POLITICIANS
THINKING THE WAY THEY THINK?
I MEAN, WE COULD TALK FOR HOURS
ABOUT THIS.
BUT THE END RESULT IS I TRULY
HAVE NO IDEA.
IT MAKES SENSE TO AT LEAST BE
PREPARED.
EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT,
AT LEAST BE PREPARED IN CASE YOU
NEED TO DO IT.
AND IF YOU'RE GOING TO PREPARE,
THE TIME TO DO THAT WAS A MONTH
AGO.
BUT THE NEXT BEST TIME TO DO
THAT IS RIGHT NOW.

Nam says, I THINK THE IDEA TOO,
WE KEEP SEEING THE NUMBERS FOR
THE NUMBER OF CASES IN ONTARIO
GOING UP AND I THINK SOME PEOPLE
ARE CONFUSED AS TO WHY THAT IS
WHEN WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT
NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DOUBLE
VACCINATED.
WE'RE ALSO HEARING A LOT ABOUT
BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS IN THE
U.S.
HOW COMMON IS IT FOR PEOPLE TO
GET INFECTED WITH CoVID WHO
HAVE ALREADY BEEN DOUBLE
VACCINATED?

Text reads, Breakthrough Infections.

Dr. Bogoch says, OH, THIS IS A GOOD ONE.
SO A COUPLE OF THINGS.
WHEN WE THINK ABOUT BREAKTHROUGH
INFECTIONS IN A FULLY VACCINATED
INDIVIDUAL, I THINK WE SHOULD
DIVIDE THIS INTO THREE KEY
POINTS.
THERE'S REALLY LIKE THREE TYPES
OF PEOPLE.
ONE IS SOMEONE WHO IS FULLY
VACCINATED AND THEY ARE
COMPLETELY ASYMPTOMATIC, THEY
WERE SWABBED FOR SOME UNKNOWN
REASON, AND THEY'RE POSITIVE BUT
THEY HAVE NO SYMPTOMS.
THE SECOND IS SOMEONE WHO IS
OBVIOUSLY FULLY VACCINATED AND
THEY HAVE MILD SYMPTOMS, RIGHT?
THEY FEEL CRUMMY BUT THEY’RE
NOT REALLY THAT SICK. THEY
CERTAINLY ARE SYMPTOMATIC.
THE THIRD IS SOMEONE WHO IS FULLY VACCINATED
WHO HAS A
BREAKTHROUGH INFECTION AND ACTUALLY LAND
THEMSELVES
IN HOSPITAL OR HAVE A PRETTY
SEVERE OUTCOME OR DIE FROM THIS.
SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST
TWO CATEGORIES.
WE KNOW THIS HAPPENS.
WE'VE KNOWN BREAKTHROUGH
INFECTIONS CAN HAPPEN FROM THE
FIRST CLINICAL TRIALS, EVEN
BEFORE WE KNEW DELTA VARIANT WAS
A THING, PEOPLE VACCINATED STILL
GOT COVID-19.
THIS IS NOT NEW.
IT'S ALSO NOT NEW FOR THE FIELD OF VACCINOLOGY.
THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR JUST
ABOUT EVERY VACCINE IN THE
HISTORY OF VACCINES.
BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK
IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT IT'S STILL
EXTRAORDINARILY RARE TO HAVE A
BREAKTHROUGH INFECTION THAT
RESULTS IN A VERY SERIOUS
INFECTION, HOSPITALIZATION
AND/OR DEATH.
IT CAN HAPPEN.
OF COURSE IT CAN HAPPEN.
BUT PROPORTIONATE TO
NON-VACCINATED PEOPLE, THIS IS A
MUCH, MUCH, MUCH MORE RARE
EVENT.
SO SHORT STORY LONG, THESE
VACCINES ARE VERY, VERY
EFFECTIVE AT PREVENTING PEOPLE
FROM GETTING THE INFECTION BUT
MORE IMPORTANTLY PREVENTING
PEOPLE GETTING VERY SICK,
LANDING IN HOSPITAL AND DYING
FROM THIS ILLNESS.

Nam says, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS
ABOUT THE SUGGESTION THAT MAYBE
PEOPLE SHOULD BE GETTING BOOSTER
SHOTS?

Dr. Bogoch says, I THINK THERE ARE CERTAINLY
GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS THAT WOULD
BENEFIT FROM BOOSTER SHOTS RIGHT
NOW.
IF THE QUESTION IS TODAY, WHO
NEEDS A BOOSTER SHOT, THE ANSWER IS IT'S
PRETTY CLEAR THAT PEOPLE WHO
HAVE COMPROMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS
OR PEOPLE WHO RESIDE IN CHRONIC
CARE SETTINGS AND LONG-TERM CARE
SETTINGS, THOSE ARE INDIVIDUALS
AND COHORTS THAT WOULD
CERTAINLY BENEFIT FROM A BOOSTER
SHOT.
BUT THE QUESTION IS, DOES
EVERYONE WHO IS VACCINATED OR DO
ALL ELIGIBLE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
ALREADY BEEN VACCINATED REQUIRE
A BOOSTER SHOT, I DON'T THINK
THERE'S COMPELLING DATA FOR THAT
RIGHT NOW TODAY.
YOU KNOW, MAYBE IN THE FUTURE WE
WILL ALL NEED A BOOSTER SHOT.
BUT CERTAINLY NOT NOW.
AND I THINK YOU'RE HEARING --
BECAUSE WE'RE HEARING THE UNITED
STATES AT LEAST TELEGRAPH THAT
THEY WANT TO DO THIS, YOU'RE
ALSO HEARING A LARGE CHORUS OF
SCIENTISTS AND VACCINOLOGISTS
AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALISTS
SAYING, WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE?
THIS DOESN'T SEEM TO MAKE SENSE.
CERTAINLY SOME PEOPLE WOULD
BENEFIT FROM IT, BUT EVERYBODY
RIGHT NOW?
I THINK THAT'S A MISTAKE.

Nam says, I GUESS THE IDEA OF
MAYBE SHARING VACCINES WITH
COUNTRIES THAT DON'T HAVE ACCESS
TO THEM?

Dr. Bogoch says, ABSOLUTELY.
I MEAN, ONE POINT IS, IS THERE
AN ACTUAL MEDICAL REASON OR
PUBLIC HEALTH REASON TO DO THIS.
AND THE ANSWER IS NO FOR
EVERYBODY.
BUT THE NEXT POINT IS, IF YOU
LOOK AT A PLACE LIKE THE UNITED
STATES, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
200 MILLION VACCINES.
GIVE ME A BREAK.
THERE ARE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN LOW
INCOME COUNTRIES AND MIDDLE
INCOME COUNTRIES AROUND THE
WORLD WHO HAVEN'T EVEN HAD A
FIRST DOSE OF THE VACCINE.
MANY OF THESE REGIONS ARE JUST
GETTING SADLY RAVAGED BY THE
DELTA VARIANT AT THIS TIME AND
THOSE VACCINES WOULD DO A LOT OF
GOOD IN THOSE ARMS OVERSEAS.

Nam says, IS IT TRUE THAT MOST
OF US WILL BE EXPOSED TO COVID
AT SOME POINT?

Text reads, Evolving Into a Seasonal Flu?

Dr. Bogoch says, YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S NOT
COMFORTABLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS,
BUT THAT'S A SAD REALITY.
COVID IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE
ANY TIME SOON.
DELTA VARIANT IS VERY, VERY
CONTAGIOUS.
IF YOU LOOK AHEAD IN THE CRYSTAL
BALL AHEAD, A YEAR OR TWO YEARS
OR THREE YEARS, SOME PERIOD OF
TIME, WE'LL ALL PROBABLY GET
EXPOSED TO THIS VIRUS AT SOME
POINT.
IT MIGHT BE SOONER, IT MIGHT BE
LATER.
THE VIRUS AIN'T GOING AWAY.
WE'RE ALL GOING TO GET EXPOSED.
I GUESS THE REAL QUESTION NOW
IS, WHEN YOU’RE EXPOSED DO YOU
HAVE ANTIBODIES IN YOUR SYSTEM
FROM VACCINATION OR NOT?
HOPEFULLY MOST PEOPLE DO SO THEY
CAN AT LEAST MOUNT A SIGNIFICANT
BATTLE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES
FROM THIS INFECTION, AND OF
COURSE WE KNOW THAT NOT
EVERYBODY IS ELIGIBLE OR SOME PEOPLE
HAVE BARRIERS TO VACCINATION AND
THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO
CONTINUE WITH OTHER MEASURES TO
KEEP THE POPULATION SAFE.
I THINK MASKING IS STILL VERY
IMPORTANT NOW.
CREATING SAFER INDOOR SPACES IS
STILL VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.
EVENTUALLY -- WE'RE NOT THERE
YET -- BUT EVENTUALLY WE WILL BE
ABLE TO LIFT MASK MANDATES,
WE'LL BE ABLE TO CARRY ON LIFE AS WE
REMEMBER PRE-COVID-19.
WE WILL GET THERE.

Nam says, WE WILL?

Dr. Bogoch says, I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE
CALLING TO MAKE THAT RIGHT TURN
BUT THEY'RE MAKING THAT RIGHT
TURN BEFORE YOU'RE AT THE STREET
AND WE AREN'T READY JUST YET.
THIS IS GOING TO BE HERE FOR A
WHILE, THE PANDEMIC ISN'T OVER
AND WE STILL NEED TO VACCINATE
BUT ALSO HAVE OTHER MEASURES IN
PLACE TO KEEP POPULATIONS SAFE.

Nam says, I HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT.
WE'RE HEARING ABOUT THE LAMBDA
VARIANT? HOW CONCERNED SHOULD
WE BE ABOUT THAT?

Dr. Bogoch says, KEEP AN EYE ON IT BUT NO
REASON TO PANIC.

Nam says, DR. BOGOCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH,
IT'S BEEN
A PLEASURE HAVING YOU BACK ON
THE SHOW. I JUST WANTED TO
SAY THANK YOU ON BEHALF OF
ONTARIANS FOR ALL THE WORK
YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES ARE
DOING. MY BEST TO YOUR FAMILY.

Dr. Bogoch says, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
HAVE A GREAT DAY.

Text reads, Produced by Meredith Martin @MeredithMartin

Watch: Navigating Ontario's Fourth Wave