Transcript: Worst Blunders in Ontario Political History | Jun 02, 2021

Steve sits in a room with white walls, a low slanted ceiling and several framed pictures on the walls including one of George Drew. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a white shirt and a black tie.

A caption on screen reads "Worst blunders in Ontario political history. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE OLD EXPRESSION SAYS A WEEK IS LIKE A LIFETIME IN POLITICS. SO, THERE ARE 52 LIFETIMES UNTIL THE NEXT ONTARIO ELECTION. BUT WE'VE ALSO SEEN THAT THOSE LIFETIMES CAN FLY BY. ONTARIO GOES TO THE POLLS JUNE 2nd, 2022... EXACTLY ONE YEAR FROM TODAY. DOES HISTORY OFFER ANY VALUABLE LESSONS FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCES POLITICIANS TODAY FIND THEMSELVES IN? LET'S ASK: IN AJAX, ONTARIO: JANET ECKER, SHE'S A FORMER ONTARIO MINISTER OF FINANCE...

Janet is in her sixties, with short wavy blond hair. She's wearing glasses, a printed blouse and a matching silk scarf.

Steve continues IN THE RIVERDALE NEIGHBOURHOOD OF THE PROVINCIAL CAPITAL: FORMER MPP TIM MURPHY, NOW MANAGING DIRECTOR AT THE McMILLAN VANTAGE POLICY GROUP...

Tim is in his fifties, clean-shaven and bald. He's wearing glasses, a blue pinstripe suit and a white shirt.

Steve continues AND, FROM THE DOWNTOWN CORE: ROBERT BENZIE, QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU CHIEF FOR THE TORONTO STAR...

Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a light gray suit, pink gingham shirt and striped black and pink tie.

Steve continues IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU THREE WITH US FOR THIS LOOK DOWN MEMORY LANE, I GUESS, A LITTLE BIT IN ONTARIO POLITICAL HISTORY. ROBERT, I'M GOING TO GET YOU TO START US OFF HERE BECAUSE EVERY GOVERNMENT THREE YEARS INTO OFFICE HAS TO LOOK BACK AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS BETTER, WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT BETTER. LOOKING BACK AT THIS ONTARIO GOVERNMENT'S FIRST THREE YEARS IN OFFICE, WHAT'S ON YOUR LIST OF UNAMBIGUOUS, UNFORCED ERRORS?

The caption changes to "Robert Benzie. Toronto Star. @robertbenzie."

Robert says WELL, I THINK THE BIGGEST UNFORCED ERROR THAT PREMIER DOUG FORD HAS HAD I THINK, STEVE, IS... ASIDE FROM THE PANDEMIC, ANY ISSUES IN THE PANDEMIC, BECAUSE I THINK HISTORY IS STILL TO BE WRITTEN ON THE PANDEMIC. BUT I THINK BEFORE CoVID-19 ROCKED OUR WORLD AND CHANGED EVERYTHING, I THINK THE PREMIER'S BIGGEST BLUNDER, FRANKLY, WAS HIS BID TO HAVE HIS FRIEND, RON TAVENER, BE THE OPP COMMISSIONER. SUPERINTENDENT TAVENER IS A MID-LEVEL TORONTO POLICE OFFICER IN HIS 70s AND A CLOSE FORD FAMILY FRIEND. REMEMBER IN 2018 THE PREMIER THOUGHT THIS WAS A VERY GOOD IDEA TO HAVE THE PROVINCIAL POLICE FORCE BE RUN BY SOMEONE HE WAS CLOSE TO PERSONALLY. AND I THINK THAT REALLY, REALLY HURT THE PREMIER. HE BACKED OFF. BUT IT TOOK MONTHS. AND IT WAS A DEBILITATING EPISODE. AND IT WAS ALSO A LESSON OF THE POSSIBLE AND THE IMPOSSIBLE FOR A NEW GOVERNMENT. I THINK WHEN YOU TAKE THE REINS OF POWER, AS BOTH TIM AND JANET KNOW, YOU KIND OF THINK, OH, I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT. OR YOU THINK YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT AND YOU SEE THERE ARE PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS ALONG THE WAY TO GOVERNING THE LARGEST PROVINCE IN CANADA.

Steve says THAT MAY HAVE BEEN SAID IN A NARRATIVE FOR DOUG FORD AND I DON'T MEAN THIS IN ANY DISRESPECTFUL WAY WHATSOEVER, BUT THEN THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC CAME AND IT GAVE HIM AN OPPORTUNITY TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE NARRATIVE ON THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS OF HIS GOVERNMENT. JANET AND TIM, I'LL GET YOU TO COME IN AND SORT OF FOLLOW UP ON THE STORY. WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST THAT THREE YEARS IN, A NARRATIVE CAN GET FORMED THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK. POLLING SHOWED THAT IT HAPPENED TO BOB RAE, IT HAPPENED TO KATHLEEN WYNNE. DOUG FORD, FOR WHATEVER REASON, JANET, IS STILL IN THE GAME. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

The caption changes to "Janet Ecker. Former Ontario Finance Minister."

Janet says WELL, ONE OF THE REASONS I THINK IS, FIRST OF ALL, WE ARE IN A PANDEMIC, AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH WE MIGHT GET FRUSTRATED AND IRRITATED AT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING, I THINK MOST PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS A SORT OF WHOLE NEW SITUATION FOR EVERYBODY. THERE IS NO PLAYBOOK. AND GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD ARE MAKING GOOD STEPS AND BAD STEPS. SO I THINK THAT'S ONE THING. PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THE SITUATION WE'RE IN. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE BIG BENEFITS, IF YOU WILL, OR ONE OF THE STRONG TRAITS THAT THE PREMIER HAS WHICH HAS GOTTEN HIM THROUGH AND COULD GET HIM THROUGH AGAIN FOR THE NEXT YEAR IS THAT AUTHENTIC WAY... I MEAN, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. I MEAN, HE'S NOT SOMEBODY WHO IS SPINNING YOU A LINE. HE'S TELLING YOU WHAT HE REALLY THINKS, GOOD, BAD, OR WHATEVER. AND I THINK THAT AUTHENTICNESS, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, IN THIS DAY AND AGE IN POLITICS, IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT, WHETHER YOU'RE GOOD OR BAD, WHETHER THEY AGREE OR THEY DON'T AGREE, THEY WANT TO KNOW YOU'RE A REAL PERSON WHO FEELS, WHO GOES UP, WHO GOES DOWN, WHO LEARNS, AND I THINK IS A REAL PERSON.

Steve says TIM, HIS PERSONAL POPULARITY AND THE PARTY'S POPULARITY, THE PC PARTY'S POPULARITY, ARE NOT CERTAINLY AS ROBUST AS THEY WERE ON ELECTION DAY BACK IN 2018, BUT THEY'RE ALSO NOT IN BOB RAE/KATHLEEN WYNNE TERRITORY. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

The caption changes to "Tim Murphy. McMillan Vantage Policy Group. Former Ontario MPP."

Tim says WELL, I THINK, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I THINK BECAUSE... YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO ROBERT'S POINT. THERE ARE IN MY VIEW THREE TYPES OF BLUNDERS POLITICIANS MAKE. AND THERE'S POLICY BLUNDERS, CHARACTER BLUNDERS, AND STRATEGY BLUNDERS. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, DOUG FORD COMMITTED THE WORST KIND OF BLUNDER OUT OF THE GATE, WHICH IS CHARACTER BLUNDERS WITH RON TAVENER, DEAN FRENCH APPOINTING FRIENDS, AND THEN THE PANDEMIC CAME ALONG AND, YOU KNOW, THAT GREAT HAROLD McMILLAN QUOTE THAT THE BIGGEST THING THAT CAN CHANGE YOU OFF-COURSE IN POLITICS IS EVENTS. THE PANDEMIC CAME ALONG. AND THAT ALLOWED HIM TO RE-ESTABLISH HIS CHARACTER, A BIT ALONG THE LINES THAT JANET WAS SPEAKING TO. I THINK IT'S DETERIORATED BECAUSE HE WAS I THINK LOSING THE PLOT A BIT OVER THE LAST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS. FROM A CHARACTER POINT OF VIEW, THE RATIONALE FOR DOING THINGS AND WHAT HE WAS DOING STARTED TO BE DISCONNECTED SO PEOPLE COULD RETURN TO AN OLDER VIEW OF HIM. THAT BEING SAID, I THINK, YOU KNOW, HE HASN'T COMPLETELY LOST THE PLOT AND I THINK THAT BLUNDERING STRATEGY HAS BEEN CORRECTED. HE'S BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE NEWS CYCLE. THEY'VE TRIED TO RETREAT HIM FROM CARRYING THE MESSAGE EVERY DAY AND GETTING HIM TO FOCUS ON THINGS THAT HE'S BETTER AT. SO I THINK THERE'S... YOU KNOW, WE'RE A YEAR OUT. I THINK TO YOUR POINT THERE'S STILL A PATH FOR DOUG FORD TO BE REELECTED.

Steve says ROBERT, LET ME GET YOUR TAKE ON THIS, IN THIS REGARD. WE HAVE SEEN IN OTHER PROVINCES... AND I LOOK AT ALBERTA, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH JASON KENNEY, WHO CAME INTO OFFICE MUCH MORE POPULAR THAN DOUG FORD DID IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, BUT THE CORONAVIRUS CERTAINLY CHANGED THE NARRATIVE IN ALBERTA AND ESTABLISHED A NARRATIVE THAT JASON KENNEY IS FINDING AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO BUILD OUT FROM UNDER. DOUG FORD IS STILL IN THE GAME. WHAT ARE YOU SEEING THAT MIGHT EXPLAIN REASONS WHY?

Robert says WELL, I MEAN, I THINK ONE THING IS ONTARIO ISN'T ALBERTA, RIGHT? I MEAN, IN ALBERTA, A CONSERVATIVE LEADER LIKE KENNEY WINS MORE THAN... I THINK KENNEY WON SOMETHING LIKE 50 percent OF THE VOTE AND YOU CAN WIN OR LOSE 50 percent OF THE VOTE AS A TORY IN ALBERTA WHICH IS EXTRAORDINARY. MR. FORD HERE IN ONTARIO OF COURSE WINS JUST 40 percent OF THE VOTE AND HAS A MAJORITY GOVERNMENT AND HIS TEAM WOULD BE VERY HAPPY IF HE WERE AT 40 percent RIGHT NOW AND WOULD BE DEFINITELY IN THE GAME FOR GETTING REELECTED A YEAR FROM NOW. I THINK HIS PANDEMIC PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN LARGELY BETTER THAN MR. KENNEY'S, I WOULD ARGUE, IN A THE SENSE THAT OTHER THAN IN THE THIRD WAVE, WHICH I THINK HAS BEEN PROBLEMATIC WHEN HE REOPENED TOO EARLY, I THINK MR. FORD, FROM LAST MARCH TO MAYBE NOVEMBER, HE WAS VERY METHODICAL AND RATIONAL AND REASONABLE AND HE SEEMED LIKE HE WAS IN CONTROL OF THE SITUATION AND THAT EVENTS, AS TIM SAYS, WERE NOT GETTING AHEAD OF HIM. THAT CERTAINLY CHANGED IN THE NEW YEAR, AND THIS THIRD WAVE HAS REALLY WALLOPED ONTARIO WORSE THAN IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY. I MEAN, REMEMBER, IN QUEBEC, WITH 60 percent OF OUR POPULATION, THEY'VE HAD 27 percent MORE DEATHS THAN WE HAVE. BUT EARLIER THIS YEAR, THAT WAS 40 percent MORE DEATHS. SO THEIR DEATH RATE IS SLOWING WHILE OURS HAS STAYED STEADY BECAUSE OF THIS FOURTH WAVE... OR THIRD WAVE. PLEASE, LET'S NOT HAVE A FOURTH WAVE.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says TAKE THAT BACK, PLEASE. YES, INDEED. OKAY. LET ME CHANGE THE FOCUS A LITTLE BIT HERE, JANET, TO THIS. WE HAVE SEEN AGAIN WHERE A COUPLE OF PREMIERS IN THE PAST THAT WE'VE NAMED... BOB RAE, KATHLEEN WYNNE, FOR EXAMPLE... THEIR POPULARITY WENT WAY DOWN AND THEY WERE UNABLE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY TRIED, TO BRING IT BACK UP. WE HAVE SEEN OTHER PREMIERS WHOSE POPULARITY REALLY TAKES A DIVE, AND I THINK OF BILL DAVIS IN 1975, I THINK OF DALTON McGUINTY IN 2007, THEY'RE GOING INTO THEIR SECOND TERMS, THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE DEAD DUCKS, AND SOMEHOW THEY FIGURE OUT A WAY TO BRING IT BACK AND THEY WIN AGAIN. WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS THAT ALLOWED THEM TO DO THAT?

Janet says WELL, I THINK WHAT PREMIER DAVIS DID AFTER THE... BECAUSE IN '71, BIG MAJORITY, AND THEN ALMOST LOST IT ALL IN '75 WHEN THERE WAS A SERIES OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE SCANDALS AND WHATEVER AND HE WAS PICTURED IN A PINSTRIPED SUIT WITH A CIGAR. AND WHAT THEY DID AFTER '75, I MEAN, HE HIRED A COUPLE OF REALLY SMART PEOPLE, HUGH SEGAL, WHO WE'VE SEEN ON THIS SHOW MANY TIMES, SALLY BARNES, A NUMBER OF OTHERS, ED STEWART. AND WHAT THEY DID WAS REMAKE HIM IN A WAY THAT THE AUTHENTIC BILL DAVIS CAME OUT. IT'S DESCRIBED OFTEN AS BRAMPTON BILLY, IN AN AFFECTIONATE WAY. AND HE KIND OF TURNED INTO YOUR SORT OF FAMOUS... OR A FAVOURITE UNCLE, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY. SO JUST A COMPLETE STRATEGIC ASSESSMENT OF WHAT WAS WRONG, WHERE ARE WE, YOU KNOW, WHAT MISTAKES HAVE WE MADE, WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THEM, WHAT CAN WE PUT OUT THERE THAT WILL, YOU KNOW, CHANGE THE STORY, CHANGE THE NARRATIVE, AND THEY DID A SUPERB JOB. OF COURSE I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IT WORKED WAS BECAUSE IT WAS BILL DAVIS. I MEAN, YOU CAN'T BUILD A PERSONA WITH A POLITICIAN THAT ISN'T REAL BECAUSE SOONER OR LATER THE VOTERS SEE THROUGH THAT. SO IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY I THINK LEGITIMATE, FIT THE TIMES, FIT HIS PERSONA. AND ALSO TO FIT HIS STYLE OF GOVERNING BECAUSE IT WAS MINORITY IN '75 AND AGAIN IN '77, AND HE WAS ABLE... HE WAS ONE OF THOSE POLITICIANS THAT WAS ABLE TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE. YOU KNOW, I THINK VOTERS, EVEN THOUGH WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME VOTING RESULTS IN THE STATES, YOU KIND OF WONDER ABOUT THIS, BUT FREQUENTLY VOTERS LIKE A POLITICIAN WHO IS NOT A HARD PARTISAN, WHO CAN ACTUALLY SEEM TO BE REASONABLE AND REACH ACROSS THE AISLE. AND I THINK BILL DAVIS COULD BE, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS PARTISAN, COULD BE A VERY... WAS VERY ADEPT AT THAT.

Steve says TIM, WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT CONDITIONS THAT YOU SEE THAT ALLOW SOME LEADERS WHO APPEAR TO BE TOAST TO COME BACK?

The caption changes to "Tim Murphy, @TJHisLaw."

Tim says SO... WELL, I GO BACK TO MY SORT OF THREE KINDS OF BLUNDERS: CHARACTER, STRATEGY, AND POLICY. AND I THINK GENERALLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK TO JANET'S POINT, WHAT BILL DAVIS MANAGED TO DO WAS RE-SET ALL THREE. NOW, HE DID THAT POST-ELECTION IN '75, BECAUSE I THINK HE CARRIED THE IMAGE OF, FRANKLY, SLIGHTLY OUT OF TOUCH, ARROGANT, YOU KNOW, THE CIGAR SMOKING AND THEY COMPLETELY RESET HIS CHARACTER. BUT THEY ALSO DID SOME MAJOR POLICY SHIFTS AROUND RENT CONTROL AND THE SPADINA EXPRESSWAY AND A SET OF THINGS THAT MOVED HIM IN ESSENCE MORE TO THE CENTRE FROM A POLICY POINT OF VIEW AND FROM A STRATEGY POINT OF VIEW TRIED TO KIND OF MAKE HIM IN A PERSONAL SENSE MORE A PERSON OF THE MIDDLE IN ONTARIO, WHICH HE CLEARLY KIND OF, YOU KNOW, OCCUPIED SIGNIFICANTLY UNTIL, YOU KNOW, EFFECTIVELY DAVID PETERSON BEAT FRANK MILLER 10 YEARS LATER. I THINK BOB RAE IN 1995 HAD A DIFFERENT PROBLEM. HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE A CHARACTER PROBLEM, IN MY VIEW. I THINK HE... YOU KNOW, HE SET OUT ON A POLICY PATH IN THE FACE OF AN ENORMOUS RECESSION THAT I THINK ALIENATED SOME OF HIS CORE AND WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, FRANKLY THE KIND OF ONE IN AN ACCIDENTAL SENSE AND WAS NEVER ABLE TO GET OUT OF THE POLICY AND EVENTS TRAP THAT FRAMED HIM. AND I THINK... YOU KNOW, AND THEN YOU RUSH FORWARD TO KATHLEEN WYNNE, WHO, YOU KNOW, CARRIED SOME CONSIDERABLE UNPOPULARITY INTO THAT ELECTION, BUT, YOU KNOW, WAS 14-PLUS, 15 YEARS INTO A GOVERNMENT AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES JUST THE WEIGHT OF DECISIONS AND EVENTS AND THE CHALLENGES YOU CREATE, YOU JUST CAN'T GET OVER. AND I THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS UNFIXABLE AND HER CHARACTER I THINK WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS FIXED IN THE PUBLIC MIND AND ALSO NOT UNFIXABLE... FIXABLE.

Steve says I DO WANT ROBERT TO PICK UP ON THAT. BEFORE YOU DO, IT POPPED INTO MY HEAD THAT TOMORROW... TOMORROW IS THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL DAVIS' SPEECH TO STOP THE SPADINA EXPRESSWAY AND THAT SPEECH, ALMOST AS MUCH AS ANYTHING, HELPED HIM WIN THE 1971 MAJORITY GOVERNMENT THAT HE'D GO ON TO WIN IN OCTOBER. ANYWAYS, THAT LITTLE ASIDE ASIDE ... OKAY, ROBERT. PICK UP THE STORY FROM THIS VANTAGE POINT. IT REALLY COMES FROM THE END OF WHAT TIM WAS SAYING. HOW MUCH OF A FACTOR IN WHETHER YOU'VE GOT A SHOT TO BE ELECTED OR REELECTED IS CARRYING THE WATER OF YOUR PREDECESSORS.

Robert says CERTAINLY IT'S A HUGE FACTOR, STEVE. I THINK TO TIM'S POINT, KATHLEEN WYNNE WON A SURPRISE MAJORITY. I THINK A LOT WERE SURPRISED IN 2014 WHEN SHE SEIZED VICTORY FROM THE JAWS OF DEFEAT. REMEMBER, IN 2013 WHEN DALTON McGUINTY FINALLY LEFT, THAT WAS A GOVERNMENT THAT WAS EMBROILED IN THE GAS PLANT DEBACLE AND HAD A LOT OF MILEAGE ON IT. YOU KNOW, MR. McGUINTY HAD BEEN AROUND FOR ALMOST A DECADE AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE WERE READY FOR A CHANGE. AND PREMIER WYNNE REALLY RESUSCITATED HER PARTY WITH THE HELP OF FOLKS LIKE TIM, FRANKLY, AND 2014 WAS A REALLY BIG VICTORY FOR THE LIBERALS AND A SURPRISING ONE. HOWEVER, THE HANGOVER OF THE McGUINTY YEARS I THINK CAUGHT UP WITH MS. WYNNE IN 2018, AND I THINK SHE... IT WAS WEIRD. PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GAS PLANT AFFAIR IN THE 2018 ELECTION AND THOSE OF US IN THE COGNOSCENTI THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF RESOLVED AFTER 2013 AND IT JUST WASN'T. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT... I MEAN, NOT TO PICK ON TIM, BUT TIM HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS WITH PAUL MARTIN AS WELL. PAUL MARTIN HAD TO CARRY A LOT OF WATER FOR JEAN CHRETIEN'S PROBLEMS. JOHN TURNER HAD TO CARRY PIERRE TRUDEAU'S WATER. IT'S JUST ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SOMETIMES HAPPENS. JANET KNOWS THIS. SHE WAS ERNIE EVES' FINANCE MINISTER. THERE WERE ISSUES THAT THAT GOVERNMENT HAD TO DEAL WITH, THAT PREMIER EVES HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT HAD TO DO WITH MIKE HARRIS, HIS PREDECESSOR. WHEN YOU GET INTO DYNASTIES AND BILL DAVIS REALLY IS THE SURVIVOR, THE REMARKABLE ONE, THAT HE WAS ABLE TO GO TAKE ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAD HAPPENED ON JOHN ROBARTS AND HIS PREDECESSOR, LESLIE FROST AND OTHERS, AND NOT WEAR THEM. IN FACT I STILL BELIEVE IF MR. DAVIS HADN'T RETIRED IN 1984, THE TORIES WOULD HAVE WON A MAJORITY IN 1985.

Steve says TIM, MAYBE YOU CAN HELP EXPLAIN HOW DYNASTIES DO LAST. I MEAN, THE TORIES WENT FOR 42 STRAIGHT YEARS. SO CARRYING WATER FOR THE PREDECESSOR DIDN'T SEEM TO BE A PROBLEM FOR FROST, ROBARTS, AND DAVIS. BUT THEN OTHER TIMES, AS ROBERT HAS JUST EXPLAINED, IT REALLY IS. SO WHEN IS IT AND WHEN IS IT NOT A PROBLEM?

Tim says I THINK IT'S A COUPLE OF THINGS, ONE OF WHICH IS, I THINK... THE NEWS CYCLE HAS CONSIDERABLY ADVANCED THE... YOU KNOW, IT'S GOT A 24-HOUR NEWS CYCLE. THE WEIGHT OF DECISIONS, YOU KNOW, AND THE DEGREE TO WHICH PEOPLE HAVE A LOYALTY TO A PARTY OR AN INSTITUTION HAS DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY. SOME OF THE FACTORS THAT WOULD... YOU KNOW, YOU'RE BORN A LIBERAL, DIE A LIBERAL, IS NO LONGER TRUE OR FOR ANY OF THE PARTIES. AND SO THERE'S MORE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO WILL RESPOND TO A LEADER-CENTRIC, SO IT'S A VERY LEADER-CENTRIC ENVIRONMENT. ALL OF THOSE THINGS DRIVE YOU AWAY FROM THE ABILITY TO HAVE SORT OF AN INSTITUTIONAL STRENGTH, LIKE THE TORIES DID IN ONTARIO FOR 42 YEARS. I DO THINK YOU CAN... YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO... YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE GOING TO WIN IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU'VE SUCCEEDED A LONG-TERM LEADER, YOU'RE KIND OF STARTING FROM SCRATCH. SO YOU GIVE THE OPPOSITION LEADERS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY, HEY, IF YOU WANT A CHANGE, PICK ME. SO IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, YOU'VE GOT TO FRAME YOURSELF AS THE BEST OPTION AND FIND A WAY TO MOVE AWAY FROM SOME OF THE THINGS OF THE PAST. PAUL MARTIN, YOU KNOW, WE WERE ABLE TO DO THAT IN 2004 TO SOME DEGREE, ALTHOUGH WE STILL HAD THE HANGOVER OF THE SPONSORSHIP SCANDAL BECAUSE FRANKLY A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT PAUL WAS DIFFERENT THAN JEAN CHRETIEN. BY '06, WE HAD ACCUMULATED OUR OWN BAGGAGE AND DOWN WE WENT. SO KATHLEEN IN 2014 WAS ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, FRAME HERSELF AS THE BEST CHOICE AMONG TIM HUDAK AND ANDREA HORWATH. BY 2018, YOU KNOW, THE BURDEN OF HER OWN SINS AND THOSE OF DALTON McGUINTY, WEIRDLY ENOUGH, TO ROBERT'S POINT, THE GAS PLANT ISSUE WAS IN OUR OWN INTERNAL POLLING MORE COGENT AN ISSUE IN 2018 THAN IT WAS IN 2014, STRANGELY ENOUGH.

Steve says HMM. THAT IS STRANGE. OKAY, JANET, HERE'S WHERE YOU GET TO TELL SOME TALES OUT OF SCHOOL. I WANT TO KNOW WHEN YOU WERE SITTING AS MINISTER OF FINANCE IN THE ERNIE EVES GOVERNMENT, HOW OFTEN SOMEONE AROUND THAT TABLE WOULD SAY, DAMN IT ALL, WE'RE STILL CARRYING WATER FOR THE DECISIONS OF THE MIKE HARRIS YEARS?

Janet says SOMETIMES IF YOU WERE THE MINISTER THAT HAD TOLD A PREVIOUS LEADER NOT TO DO SOMETHING AND THE PERSON DID IT, YOU KNOW, AND IT CAME BACK AGAIN, THERE WAS BLOW-BACK AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, THAT MINISTER MAY WELL BE A BIT NEGATIVE, YOU KNOW, GOING FORWARD. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT A CABINET IS THAT YOU'VE GOT DIVERSITY OF OPINION AROUND THAT TABLE. WHAT YOU NEVER WANT TO HAVE IS A ROOM FULL OF PEOPLE THAT ALL THINK THE SAME WAY AND ALL WANT TO COME AT AN ISSUE THE SAME WAY. AND THE TRICK FOR A LEADER IS TO LISTEN TO THAT, AND THEN AT THE END OF THE DAY, DECIDE, MAKE A DECISION, DECIDE WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GO NEXT. BUT YOU NEED THAT DIVERSITY. I'VE BEEN IN A LOT OF CABINET MEETINGS UNDER BOTH PREMIER HARRIS AND PREMIER EVES WHERE THERE WERE STRONG ARGUMENTS AND OPINIONS AND THE ODD BANGING OF THE TABLE FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT YOU DON'T WANT EVERYBODY SITTING THERE NODDING, YES, SIR, NO, SIR, THREE BAGS FULL, SIR. BECAUSE THAT'S GUARANTEED TO KILL YOU IN THE END. AND IF I CAN JUST POINT TO YOUR PREVIOUS QUESTION ON TIM. I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS... AND TIM TOUCHED ON IT... IS THAT IN THE CURRENT POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT, THE POLITICAL CULTURE THAT ALL OF THOSE IN POLITICS HAVE TO FUNCTION IN, IT'S NOT A QUESTION THESE DAYS OF, OH, I'M JUST IRRITATED WITH THE GOVERNMENT. THROUGH TWITTER, SOCIAL MEDIA, ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING, PEOPLE HATE THE GOVERNMENT. THEY WANT TO FIGURATIVELY KILL THE GOVERNMENT. THERE'S JUST AN EMOTION. AND SOMEONE WAS AT A CONSULTATION SESSION FOR AN ORGANIZATION I'M AFFILIATED WITH A WEEK OR SO AGO AND THEY SAID WHAT... AND THIS IS JUST SOMEBODY WHO IS A CONFIDENT TECHNOCRAT, IF YOU WILL, ON THIS ISSUE, AND THEY JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE, THEY CALL IT THE POLITICIZATION OF THE ISSUE, BUT IT WAS ALL ALONG PARTY LINES. THEY SAID YOU CAN PRACTICALLY TELL WHO WAS SORT OF SUPPORTING WHAT PARTY BY THE WAY THEY WERE COMING AT THE ISSUE, BUT THE EMOTION, THE ANTI-EMOTION AND THE EMOTION AND WHATEVER JUST BLEW THEM AWAY. I THINK IN THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR A POLITICIAN TO CARRY THE BAGGAGE, IF YOU WILL, OF THEIR PREDECESSOR, IF THAT HATE HAS LOCKED IN. AND I THINK WE SAW IT WITH PRIME MINISTER BRIAN MULRONEY. HE HAD LEFT. BUT BY THE TIME HE LEFT, THERE WAS SUCH A PASSION AGAINST THE MAN THAT POOR KIM CAMPBELL IN MANY WAYS DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE. PEOPLE WANTED TO HIT BACK, WANTED TO PUNISH, WHATEVER. AND I THINK THAT'S A NEW TWIST. BILL DAVIS DID NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH QUITE THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT, AND NOW WE DO. SO IT'S TOUGHER TO BE IN POLITICS. ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says WELL, ROBERT, DOUG FORD IS A ROOKIE PREMIER. SO HE'S NOT REALLY CARRYING ANY WATER FROM ANY IMMEDIATE PREDECESSOR. IS THAT A BIG ADVANTAGE TO HIM GOING INTO HIS SECOND ELECTION CAMPAIGN?

Robert says YOU KNOW WHAT, STEVE, IT COULD BE. THE THING IS, THOUGH, TO JANET'S POINT, IN OUR POLARIZED POLITICS, AND MR. FORD IS SOMEONE A LITTLE LIKE KATHLEEN WYNNE, THAT PEOPLE HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ABOUT. THE PEOPLE WHO LIKE KATHLEEN WYNNE AND LIKE DOUG FORD LIKE THEM A LOT. THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE THEM HAVE THIS VISCERAL REACTION THAT IS QUITE FRANKLY OVER THE TOP AND UNHINGED. I'M STAGGERED WHEN I READ STATEMENTS ABOUT FORD, YOU KNOW, AND HOW DRACONIAN HE SUPPOSEDLY IS. WHEN IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT IT DISPASSIONATELY, HE'S GOVERNING AS A RED TORY, A BIG-SPENDING GOVERNMENT THAT IS NOT ANTIUNION NECESSARILY. IT REALLY ISN'T. I MEAN, HE GAVE TEACHERS A RAISE LAST YEAR. SIGNED CONTRACTS WITH THEM ALL. AVOIDED STRIKES. AND YET THERE'S STILL THIS FEELING OUT THERE THAT HE IS THIS GREAT VILLAIN. AND I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM. WE CARICATURIZE OUR POLITICIANS. I SEE THAT WITH TRUDEAU. THEY SEE TRUDEAU ON TELEVISION AND LOSE THEIR MIND. LIBERALS AND NEW DEMOCRATS SEE FORD ON TELEVISION, THEY LOSE THEIR MINDS. IT'S NOT NECESSARILY GOOD FOR OUR POLITICS BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, ESPECIALLY IN A PANDEMIC, WE EXPECT OUR LEADERS TO BE WORKING TOGETHER AND WE EXPECT THEM TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE GREATER GOOD. AND I THINK BY AND LARGE OUR POLITICAL LEADERS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO THAT I THINK DURING THIS PANDEMIC. THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE PREMIER HAVE WORKED VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER. SO IN TERMS OF... BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, STEVE, WHETHER MR. FORD IS NOT CARRYING ANY WATER FOR A PREDECESSOR, SURE, I THINK THAT'S HELPFUL TO HIM NOW, BUT I THINK PEOPLE... THERE'S NO CORPORATE MEMORY, IT SEEMS LIKE, THESE DAYS. I MEAN PEOPLE... THEY JUST HAVE SUCH A HATRED FOR A PERSON, WHETHER IT'S TRUDEAU OR FORD, THAT THEY LOSE... IT'S NOT ABOUT, WELL, I LIKE PAUL MARTIN, SO I'M GOING TO LIKE JUSTIN TRUDEAU. OR I LIKE ERNIE EVES SO I'M GOING TO LIKE DOUG FORD. IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT KIND OF A VIBE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW.

Steve says NO I GET YOU BUT I ALSO NOTICE... AND WHO KNOWS, MAYBE MY INTEREST IN HISTORY EXAGGERATES THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS BUT JANET, ONLY THREE ELECTED PREMIERS IN 150-PLUS YEARS OF ONTARIO HISTORY HAVE FAILED TO WIN RE-ELECTION. ONLY THREE. SO IT SUGGESTS THAT ONTARIANS, FOR WHATEVER REASON, ARE INCLINED TO GIVE SOMEBODY THEY'VE PUT INTO OFFICE THE FIRST TIME A SECOND KICK AT IT. DO YOU SEE THAT AS WELL?

Janet says ABSOLUTELY, YEAH. I MEAN, I THINK AGAIN GETTING BACK TO THE FACT THAT MR. AND MRS. FRONT PORCH CAN BE QUITE FAIR AND RATIONAL IN THEIR POLITICAL CHOICES. I KNOW WHEN I RAN WITH MIKE HARRIS IN 1999, SO WE WON THE MAJORITY IN '95, IN '99, I REMEMBER ONE GUY AT THE DOOR, I SAID... YOU KNOW, HE SUPPORTED ME IN '95. I ASKED FOR SUPPORT IN '99 AND HE LOOKED AT ME AND HE SAID, WHY DO YOU WANT TO GO BACK? LIKE, WHY DO YOU WANT TO WIN RE-ELECTION AGAIN? AND I SORT OF GAVE HIM A COUPLE OF BULLET POINTS, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU GOT IN YOUR LITTLE SPEECH YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AT THE DOOR. AND HE SAID, NO, NO, WHY DO YOU WANT TO GO BACK, WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE IN GOVERNMENT? HE PUSHED. I SAID THE JOB WE PROMISED WE'D DO IN '95 ISN'T DONE YET. AND HE SAID PRECISELY. YOU'VE GOT MY VOTE. THERE IS A SENSE, UNLESS YOU'VE REALLY TICKED PEOPLE OFF OR THERE'S BEEN A REAL EXTERNAL EVENT, BLACK SWAN EVENT OR WHATEVER, I THINK ONTARIANS ARE PREPARED TO GIVE YOU A SECOND CHANCE. BUT IT'S NOT A GUARANTEE IN THIS DAY AND AGE, ABSOLUTELY. AND I ALSO THINK, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ENVIRONMENT IS GOING TO BE LIKE POST-PANDEMIC AND THAT'S MAKING A BIG ASSUMPTION THAT THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED A POST-PANDEMIC. WE DON'T KNOW. PEOPLE ARE MAD, THEY'RE ANGRY, THEY'RE IRRITATED AT EVERYBODY. THERE'S EMOTION OUT THERE. PEOPLE, YOU KNOW... IT'S JUST COLOURING I THINK EVERYTHING THAT PEOPLE DO. AND SO I'M NOT SURE WHERE THAT'S GOING TO LAND US NEXT YEAR WHEN WE DO THE RUN-UP TO THE JUNE ELECTION. WHAT'S GOING TO BE DRIVING THEM? ARE THEY JUST GOING TO BE SITTING THERE SAYING, OH, THANK GOD THE PANDEMIC IS OVER. I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT. IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT'S A FRESH PAGE FOR PREMIER FORD. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THINGS CONTINUE TO GET WORSE AND RIGHT NOW LUCKILY NUMBERS ARE GOING DOWN, BUT WE'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE, YOU KNOW, WILL HE CARRY THE CAN FOR THAT OR WILL PEOPLE SAY, HEY, HE DID HIS BEST, HE TRIED, HE'S ONLY HUMAN? IT'S TOUGH TO KNOW BECAUSE WE'VE GOT... NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE, RIGHT, NO MATTER WHAT THEY'VE DONE, THERE IS JUST A CHORUS, A GREEK CHORUS YAMMERING ON EITHER SIDE, NO, YOU DIDN'T DO IT THE RIGHT WAY OR YOU NEED TO DO MORE, YOU NEED TO DO LESS. IT'S JUST A PHENOMENAL PRESSURE COOKER. AND I THOUGHT ACTUALLY, AND I DID GET A MIXED VIBE, BUT HIS WRITING TO ALL THE EXPERTS ON THIS SCHOOL CLOSING OR OPENING AND SAYING, C'MON, GUYS, GIVE ME AN OPINION HERE. IS THERE A CONSENSUS? BECAUSE WE'VE ALL HEARD EXPERTS ON THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW, AND GOD BLESS THEM, THEY KNOW MORE ABOUT ALL OF THIS THAN ANY OF US DO IN TERMS OF PANDEMICS. BUT THEY SAY WE THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD DO X. THE ODD REPORTER WOULD SAY, OKAY, WHAT SPECIFICALLY SHOULD THEY DO? THEY WOULD DODGE THE QUESTION. SO THERE'S A LOT OF GOING ON IN THE BACKGROUND THAT I THINK PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED WITH AND WE'LL SEE HOW IT ALL PLAYS OUT A YEAR FROM NOW.

Steve says WELL, WE'VE BEEN TALKING EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT PREMIERS HERE. TIM, WE SHOULDN'T FORGET ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO MAKE UNFORCED ERRORS. OPPOSITION LEADERS DO. LEADERS OF THIRD PARTIES DO. WHAT COMES TO MIND WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO BECOME PREMIER BUT MADE A BAD MISTAKE AND THEREFORE NEVER GOT INTO THE CHAIR?

Tim says YEAH, AGAIN I GO BACK TO MY POLICY/STRATEGY/CHARACTER BLUNDERS. I THINK ANDREA HORWATH IN THE LAST POLITICAL ELECTION MADE A STRATEGY BLUNDER THAT POTENTIALLY COST HER THE PREMIER'S CHAIR. YOU GO BACK TO THE 2018 ELECTION. THE NDP WAS, YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON THE POLLING COMPANY, AT OR NEAR THE TOP, ABOVE THE CONSERVATIVES, AND BY THE TIME OF THE ELECTION, THEY SLID INTO SECOND PLACE AND DOUG FORD HAD HIS MAJORITY. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE STRATEGY ERROR AT THAT POINT WAS SHE CAMPAIGNED TO GOVERN AS OPPOSED TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST DOUG FORD. AND AS A RESULT OF WHICH, YOU ACTUALLY SAW LIBERAL VOTERS MOVE TO SUPPORT DOUG FORD BECAUSE THEY PREFERRED DOUG FORD TO ANDREA HORWATH. THEN YOU CAN SEE POLICY ERRORS. YOU LOOK AT JOHN TORY WHO RAN RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS OR TIM HUDAK'S 100,000 JOB CUTS IN THE CIVIL SERVICE WHICH I THINK WERE MEANT TO GALVANIZE CERTAIN COMMUNITIES AND GALVANIZING A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE THEY DIDN'T INTEND TO. AND I THINK THOSE WERE KIND OF POLICY ERRORS, YOU KNOW, BY THEM AS OPPOSITION. BUT I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY TO BE FAIR TO TIM HUDAK AND TO... WELL, FAIR TO JOHN TORY, HE WAS RUNNING IN A CONTEXT WHERE TO YOUR EARLIER QUESTION THE PREMIER WAS RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION THE FIRST TIME AND THEY ARE TOUGH TO SUPPLANT BECAUSE, FRANKLY, UNLESS SOMETHING EXCEPTIONAL HAPPENS, YOU HAVEN'T ACCUMULATED ENOUGH OF THE BARNACLES OF GOVERNING FOR PEOPLE TO GO, "IT'S TIME TO GO."

Steve says ROBERT, HOW ABOUT YOU? OPPOSITION LEADERS OR LEADERS OF THIRD PARTIES WHO HAVE BLOWN THEIR CHANCE TO GET INTO THE PREMIER'S CHAIR?

Robert says I THINK TIM OUTLINED THE ONES I WOULD CITE IN TERMS OF MR. HUDAK IN 2011 AND AGAIN IN 2014 AND JOHN TORY CERTAINLY WITH FAITH-BASED SCHOOLS IN 2007. I MEAN, IT'S A STRANGE SITUATION BECAUSE I THINK... TIM MAKES A VERY GOOD POINT THAT ANDREA HORWATH, I WAS ON HER CAMPAIGN BUS IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OF THAT CAMPAIGN IN 2018 AND YOU FELT LIKE THEY WERE GOING TO WIN. WE WERE IN STRATFORD AND WE RAN INTO DAVID PETERSON ON THE STREET, AND PETERSON COMES AND GIVES HER A FRIENDLY HANDSHAKE AND THE MEDIA CAMERAS ALL SWARM AROUND THE FORMER PREMIER AND THE PRESUMED NEXT PREMIER. AND THINGS WERE GOING BADLY FOR DOUG FORD IN THAT CAMPAIGN AT THAT POINT. BUT THEN MS. HORWATH DIDN'T FIRE SOME ERRANT CANDIDATES SHE SHOULD HAVE PERIOD. REMEMBER THE POPPY LADY AND THE NAZI MEME LADY. YOU HAVE TO FIRE BAD CANDIDATES. AND THE TORIES BATTENED DOWN THE HATCHES. THEY SAY YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ELECTING DOUG FORD, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ELECTING ROD PHILLIPS, CAROLINE MULRONEY, PETER BETHLENFALVY. NEXT YEAR, IF I'M STEVEN DEL DUCA, I'M GOING TO BE DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I'M GOING TO BE SAYING WE HAVE A TEAM THAT'S READY TO GOVERN ON DAY ONE. ANDREA HORWATH DIDN'T LOOK LIKE SHE WAS READY TO GOVERN IN 2018 EVEN THOUGH I REALLY DID BELIEVE FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS THERE THAT I WAS ON THE BUS OF THE NEXT PREMIER OF ONTARIO.

Steve says TIM, WHAT WAS YOUR ROLE IN THE 2003 ONTARIO ELECTION?

Tim says WELL, I WAS ACTUALLY WORKING IN OTTAWA AT THAT POINT. SO I WAS AN OBSERVER.

Steve says OKAY.

Tim says... I WAS CO-CHAIR AND PARTY PRESIDENT IN '99...

Steve says THE REASON I ASK ABOUT 2003 IS BECAUSE... NO, I DO RECALL THAT ONE. YOU GOT 40 percent OF THE VOTE IN A LOSING EFFORT. THAT'S PRETTY GOOD.

Tim says I KNOW.

Steve says THE REASON I ASKED ABOUT 2003 IS I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR REACTION, WHEN YOU HEARD SOMEBODY WHO WORKED FOR PREMIER ERNIE EVES IN THAT CAMPAIGN DESCRIBE DALTON McGUINTY AS AN EVIL REPTILIAN KITTEN EATER FROM ANOTHER PLANET. WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU HEARD THAT?

Tim says WELL, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, FRANKLY, ARE DESPERATION TACTICS, RIGHT? IT'S A LITTLE BIT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN POLITICS THAT I THINK ALL PARTIES SUFFER FROM, WHICH IS YOU GET KIND OF THESE SOCIAL MEDIA ENTHUSIASTS, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO KIND OF ARE TRYING TO GENERATE, YOU KNOW, EXCITING HEADLINES, AND THERE'S NO ADULT SUPERVISION. AND AS YOU GET, YOU KNOW, MORE WORRIED ABOUT CAMPAIGN RESULTS, PEOPLE ARE PUSHING AT MORE STUFF, TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING THAT WILL STICK. I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THOSE. TO ME THAT WAS A SIGN THAT CAMPAIGN WAS LOSING AND KNEW IT. AND I THINK... SO IN OTHER WORDS THOSE KIND OF THINGS ARE MORE A REFLECTION OF WHAT'S ALREADY OCCURRING, IN MY VIEW, THAN A DRIVER OF SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING, THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

Steve says WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE HERE, ROBERT. LET ME GIVE IT TO YOU. I'M NOT SURE THIS IS GOING TO BE A FACTOR IN THE UPCOMING ELECTION NEXT YEAR, BUT IT CERTAINLY HAS BEEN IN THE PAST, AND THAT IS OVERCONFIDENCE, EITHER BY THE PERSON WHO HAS GOT THE JOB OR THE PERSON WHO WANTS THE JOB. WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

Robert says YOU KNOW WHAT, STEVE? I DON'T THINK, GIVEN THE REALITIES OF CoVID-19 AND THE PANDEMIC THAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THESE LAST 15 MONTHS AND HOPEFULLY BY THE TIME THE NEXT ELECTION ROLLS AROUND, IT WILL BE SOMETHING IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR. I THINK IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT I DON'T THINK PREMIER FORD IS OVERCONFIDENT, ANDREA HORWATH GOING AFTER HER FOURTH KICK AT THE CAN IS OVERCONFIDENT, OR STEVEN DEL DUCA. HE MAY HAVE TO WEAR SOME OF THE BAGGAGE FROM PREMIER WYNNE BECAUSE HE WAS IN HER CABINET. I THINK ALL OF THEM WILL BE SUITABLY HUMBLED AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING FOR ALL VOTERS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Patricia Kozicka, @TrishKozicka."

Steve says JANET, BRIEFLY, HAVE YOU SEEN IT IN THE PAST?

Janet says IT'S CERTAINLY HAPPENED IN THE PAST. ROBERT IS RIGHT. I THINK WE'RE SEEING A PREMIER WHO HAS GONE THROUGH A HELL OF A FIRST THREE YEARS AND HE'S LEARNED. WE'LL SEE HOW IT GOES NEXT YEAR, BUT I THINK ALL BETS ARE STILL ON AT THIS POINT.

Steve says ALL BETS STILL ON. THANKS SO MUCH TO THE THREE OF YOU, JANET ECKER, TIM MURPHY, ROBERT BENZIE FOR SPENDING SOME TIME WITH US TONIGHT ON T-MINUS ONE YEAR AND COUNTING. TAKE CARE, EVERYBODY.

Janet says THANKS, STEVE.

Watch: Worst Blunders in Ontario Political History