Transcript: Fareed Zakaria: Is this the Worst of Times? | Jun 15, 2021

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and checked blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Is this the worst of times? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says COVID-19 RESHAPED OUR LIVES IN WAYS MOST OF US COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED. IT'S PROMPTED RECONSIDERATION OF FUNDAMENTALS IN SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, AND POLITICAL LIFE AROUND THE GLOBE. AND WHERE IT TAKES US IN THE FUTURE... WELL, THAT'S UNCLEAR. FAREED ZAKARIA IS AUTHOR MOST RECENTLY OF "TEN LESSONS FOR A POST-PANDEMIC WORLD." HE'S HOST OF CNN'S FAREED ZAKARIA GPS, AND A WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST. AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM MANHATTAN ISLAND IN NEW YORK CITY.

Fareed is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short black hair. He's wearing a blue sweater.
A picture of his book appears briefly on screen. The cover is dark blue.

Steve continues FAREED, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY?

Fareed says VERY GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN AS WELL.

Steve says PLEASED TO HAVE YOU ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT. I'D LIKE TO START WITH A BIT OF A ODD QUESTION BECAUSE I DID SEE YOU QUOTED IN ANOTHER INTERVIEW ELSEWHERE WHERE YOU SAID THIS IS THE TOUGHEST OF ALL THE BOOKS YOU HAVE WRITTEN. HOW COME?

The caption changes to "Fareed Zakaria. Author, 'Ten lessons for a post-pandemic world.'"
Then, it changes again to "A difficult chapter."

Fareed says TWO THINGS: ONE WAS THE SPEED WITH WHICH I HAD TO DO IT. I KNEW THAT IN ORDER TO GET TO PEOPLE WHILE THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT WHAT THE WORLD WOULD LOOK LIKE AFTER THE PANDEMIC, I NEEDED TO FINISH THE BOOK AND TO HAVE IT PUBLISHED DURING THE PANDEMIC, WHICH MEANT I HAD TO DO IT IN REALLY THE FIRST FOUR MONTHS OF THE PANDEMIC, AND I LIKE TO DO A LOT OF RESEARCH. I DO A LOT OF THINKING, DO A LOT OF HISTORICAL WORK. SO ALL THAT HAD TO BE CRAMMED IN. THE GOOD NEWS IS I HAD NOTHING ELSE TO DO IN TERMS OF ALL MY TRAVEL HAD BEEN CANCELLED, EVERY LUNCH, EVERY DINNER. SO I DID HAVE SOME SPARE TIME. THE SECOND PIECE OF IT THAT WAS TOUGH WAS THAT I HAD TO FORECAST THE FUTURE, AND I DON'T... YOU KNOW, I'M NOT REALLY IN THAT BUSINESS. I TRY TO THINK ABOUT THE BROAD PRINTS THAT ARE AT WORK, BUT I'M NOT TRYING TO BE THAT SPECIFIC. AND IN THIS CASE, I FIRST HAD TO GET A GOOD GRIP OF THE SCIENCE AND FIGURE OUT, WAS THERE GOING TO BE A VACCINE LIKELY. AND IN THAT CASE, I COULD TALK ABOUT A POST PANDEMIC WORLD BECAUSE I WAS PRETTY CONFIDENT THERE WOULD BE A VACCINE. SO, YOU KNOW, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE SCIENCE AND THINGS LIKE THAT. LUCKILY, I HAVE TO SAY, LOOKING BACK... YOU KNOW, I WROTE THE BOOK NOW REALLY A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. IT'S MOSTLY HELD UP VERY WELL. AND IN FACT SEEMS, IF I MAY SAY SO, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS QUITE PRESCIENT. I GOT MANY OF THE TRENDS RIGHT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT NATURALLY WITH NEW DATA, WITH NEW INFORMATION, I WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY. BUT ON THE WHOLE, I BREATHE A SIGH OF RELIEF THAT I GOT MOST OF IT BROADLY SPEAKING RIGHT.

Steve says WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY. THIS IS THE KIND OF BOOK WHERE YOU COULD LOOK AT IT THREE, FOUR, FIVE, TEN YEARS DOWN THE ROAD AND SAY, YIKES, I REALLY BLEW THAT ONE AND I LOOKED PRETTY GOOD ON THIS ONE. NO FEARS ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Fareed Zakaria. CNN. @FareedZakaria."

Fareed says NO, AND THAT COULD STILL HAPPEN BY THE WAY. THERE ARE SOME OF THINGS I AM PROJECTING, LONG-TERM TRENDS. FOR EXAMPLE, CITIES ARE NOT GOING TO DIE. REMEMBER THAT FEAR THAT WAS CONSUMING MOST PEOPLE AT THE START OF THE PANDEMIC, AND PART OF IT WAS HISTORICAL. I NOTICE THAT WITH THE BUBONIC PLAGUE EVERYBODY LEFT THE CITIES AND WHEN IT WAS OVER, THEY ALL RUSHED BACK. AND FLORENCE, WHICH WAS THE CENTRE OF THE PLAGUE IN ITALY, LAUNCHES THE RENAISSANCE JUST 50 YEARS AFTER THE BUBONIC PLAGUE. THE YELLOW FEVER IN PHILADELPHIA ALMOST DECIMATES PHILADELPHIA, MEANING PEOPLE DIE. THE MINUTE THE PLAGUE IS OVER, PEOPLE ARE BACK. I MAY BE WRONG ABOUT THIS BUT I DO THINK CITIES WILL REMAIN VITAL AND LIVELY. THAT WAS PRECISELY FOR THE REASON YOU POINT OUT. THAT'S WHAT GAVE ME A LITTLE BIT OF A SENSE OF INSECURITY. WITH MY OTHER BOOKS I WAS DESCRIBING BROAD HISTORICAL TRENDS THAT I WAS PRETTY CONFIDENT WERE LONG-TERM ENOUGH THAT THEY WOULD ENDURE. THIS ONE, YOU KNOW, IF I HAD GOTTEN THE VACCINE WRONG AND WE WERE STILL DEEP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC, PEOPLE WOULD MAYBE LAUGH AT A BOOK CALLED "THE POST-PANDEMIC WORLD."

Steve says WE HAVE TALKED TO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS PROGRAM WHO HAVE LOST PEOPLE NEAR AND DEAR TO THEM BECAUSE OF CoVID-19, AND I WONDER IF I COULD ASK YOU WHETHER YOU WOULD SHARE YOUR STORY IN THAT REGARD.

Fareed says SURE. I LOST MY MOTHER DURING THE PANDEMIC. SHE WAS IN INDIA, LIVING IN INDIA IN A TOWN WHERE SHE RAN A LARGE EDUCATIONAL CAMPUS OF 14 COLLEGES AND SCHOOLS. AND SHE WAS, QUITE FRANKLY, EXACTLY THE WRONG PERSON TO GET CoVID, BY WHICH I MEAN, SHE WAS 85 YEARS OLD, SHE WAS A DIABETIC. SHE WAS A BIT OVERWEIGHT. SHE WAS SEDENTARY. AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE FOR WHOM CoVID HAS PROVED DEADLY. SHE GOT VERY GOOD CARE, EVEN THOUGH INDIA WAS GOING THROUGH A VERY TOUGH TIME AT THE TIME. AND SHE GOT THE RIGHT DRUGS, ESSENTIALLY THE SAME ONES SHE WOULD GET IN CANADA OR THE UNITED STATES. BUT WHAT HAPPENED, AND I REALIZE FROM EXPERIENCING IT, YOU KNOW, THROUGH HER, WHAT HAPPENS IS AT THAT AGE, THE BODY IS FIGHTING BACK AGAINST CoVID, BUT THE BODY IS OLD AND FRAIL, AND THAT'S WHERE THESE PREEXISTING CONDITIONS BECOME SO IMPORTANT. THE DRUGS WERE WORKING AT GETTING RID OF CoVID. BUT IN THE COURSE OF THE STRUGGLE, THE BODY GIVES UP. AND JUST ONE DAY SHE HAD A MASSIVE HEART ATTACK AND DIED WITHIN TEN MINUTES. MERCIFULLY, THERE WAS NO REAL PAIN. WHAT IT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE MADE ME REALIZE, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHAT I GOT RIGHT AND WRONG IN THE BOOK. THE ONE THING I DIDN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN THE BOOK ON IS THE INTERNAL STRUGGLE WE ALL FACE WITH CoVID. SO I SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN THE BOOK DESCRIBING ALL THE THINGS IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD THAT WE NEED TO FIX TO MAKE SURE THERE ISN'T A PANDEMIC, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HANDLE THIS PANDEMIC, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE BUILD BACK BETTER, AND THAT MEANS CORPORATE PROGRAMS, GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS, RESEARCH PROGRAMS. ALL THE STUFF IN THE EXTERNAL WORLD. BUT THEN THERE'S ANOTHER SET OF RESOURCES, SKILLS, PROGRAMS YOU NEED INTERNALLY, YOU KNOW, ALL OF US, EACH OF US NEED, TO HANDLE A CRISIS LIKE THIS. WHAT ARE THE RESOURCES OF MIND AND SPIRIT WE NEED TO GET THROUGH SOMETHING LIKE THIS? I DIDN'T THINK A LOT ABOUT THAT, AND I LEARNED THE HARD WAY BECAUSE I DISCOVERED THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOSE SOMEBODY THAT CLOSE TO YOU... MY MOTHER WAS THE DOMINANT INFLUENCE IN MY LIFE... YOU NEED INTERNAL RESOURCES AS WELL. YOU KNOW, THERE ISN'T A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM IN THE WORLD THAT'S GOING TO HELP YOU.

Steve says JUST FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, YOUR MOTHER OF COURSE A HIGHLY respected JOURNALIST WHO LIVED IN INDIA. SO YOU ARE I GUESS TO SOME EXTENT A CHIP OFF THE OLD BLOCK. AND WHILE NOBODY WOULD WANT THE WISDOM YOU NOW HAVE, NO ONE WOULD WANT TO ACQUIRE IT THE WAY YOU DID, DO YOU THINK IT HAS GIVEN YOU ADDED INSIGHT, ADDED EMPATHY, ADDED WISDOM BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU AND YOUR MOTHER HAVE GONE THROUGH?

Fareed says OH, OF COURSE. I AM VERY MUCH OF THE BELIEF THAT YOU LEARN IN LIFE HOLISTICALLY, BY WHICH I MEAN YOU DON'T JUST LEARN THROUGH BOOKS. YOU LEARN THROUGH EXPERIENCE. IN FACT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TEND TO DO... I TRY NOT TO REPEAT MYSELF TOO MUCH IN COMMENCEMENT ADDRESSES, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE TALKING TO A SIMILAR GROUP OF PEOPLE AND TRYING TO PROVIDE ADVICE. ONE OF THE THINGS I OFTEN DO TELL THEM IS, AT THE END OF MY ADDRESS I'LL SAY TO ALL THESE 18, 19, 20, 21-YEAR-OLD KIDS, I SAY THERE ARE SOME THINGS IN LIFE YOU WILL ONLY LEARN THROUGH EXPERIENCE. YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT THEORETICALLY. AND THE PRINCIPAL ONE I WANT TO REMIND OF YOU TODAY IS, UNTIL YOU HAVE CHILDREN OF YOUR OWN, YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE LOVE THAT A PARENT HAS FOR A CHILD BECAUSE YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT, YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE FEELING A PARENT HAS FOR HIS OR HER CHILD UNTIL YOU HAVE YOUR OWN CHILDREN. AND THEN IT ALL MAKES SENSE. THE CRAZY CALLS AT ALL TIMES OF THE DAY, THE TEXTING. AND I SAY, SO THIS DAY OF ALL DAYS, TAKE A MOMENT TO THANK YOUR PARENTS, RIGHT? AND SO IT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE, IT SEEMS TO ME, OF SOMETHING YOU ONLY LEARN WHEN YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED IT YOURSELF, AND I HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I USED TO THINK ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME BECAUSE MY MOTHER LIVED 8,000 MILES AWAY AND I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SAY THANK YOU ENOUGH TO HER, THOUGH OF COURSE I DID WHENEVER I COULD. BUT YOU ONLY REALIZE SOME THINGS LIKE THIS, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU ACTUALLY GO THROUGH THEM. AND TO GO THROUGH... YOU KNOW, MY FATHER DIED 15 YEARS AGO. SO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THAT MOMENT WHERE YOU SUDDENLY FEEL ALL ALONE IN THE WORLD, AND IT'S NOT A TERRIBLE FEELING. I MEAN, I HAVE KIDS OF MY OWN. I HAVE, YOU KNOW, WARM FAMILY, GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS. BUT THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT LOSING THAT LAST PARENT, WHICH IS... BOY, IT REALLY MAKES YOU FEEL VERY DIFFERENTLY. YOU KNOW, THIS NEXT PHASE OF YOUR LIFE FEELS VERY DIFFERENT.

Steve says TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. LET'S TALK U.S. POLITICS. CERTAINLY THOSE OF US WHO ARE WATCHING TELEVISION ON THE 6TH OF JANUARY WATCHED IN HORROR AND FASCINATION FROM THIS SIDE OF THE BORDER AT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON, D.C. YOUR COUNTRY AT THAT POINT LOOKED ABOUT AS POLARIZED AS IT'S GOT... YOU KNOW, AS IT COULD GET IN MY LIFETIME. WE'RE NOW SEVERAL MONTHS INTO JOE BIDEN'S ADMINISTRATION, AND I WONDER WHAT YOU SEE ON THAT FRONT NOW.

The caption changes to "Politics, polarization, and power."

Fareed says ON THAT FUNDAMENTAL FRONT THAT YOU DESCRIBE, I THINK THINGS HAVEN'T REALLY CHANGED. THIS IS AGAIN ONE OF THOSE LONGER-TERM HISTORICAL TRENDS THAT I'D LOVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST FLICK A SWITCH, INAUGURATE A NEW PRESIDENT, AND IT CHANGES. NO, WE ARE MORE POLARIZED THAN AT ANY POINT YOU'VE SEEN IN YOUR LIFETIME OR MINE. THE DATA IS VERY CLEAR. WE ARE MORE POLARIZED IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY THAN AT ANY POINT SINCE THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR. THINK ABOUT THE POLARIZATION THERE, WHICH WAS ESSENTIALLY AROUND SLAVERY, THE SOUTH VERSUS THE NORTH. BIDEN HAS I THINK DONE WHAT HE COULD TO RESTORE SOME SENSE OF NORMALCY AND DIGNITY TO AMERICAN POLITICS. I THINK IT'S WORTH POINTING OUT, AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN A SENSE ENDURED, IT SUSTAINED ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE DAY, NOBODY PLAYED ANY KIND OF GAMES WITH THE ELECTORAL COUNTS. ALL STATE OFFICIALS CONFIRMED THAT THE COUNTS TOO. THE VICE PRESIDENT AFFIRMED THEM. SO, YOU KNOW, LET'S NOT FORGET THE GOOD NEWS HERE. BUT THE BAD NEWS, STEVE, YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT, IS WE ARE VERY DEEPLY POLARIZED AND THAT POLARIZATION, MY FEAR IS, IS NOT NEARLY OVER YET. IT IS A POLARIZATION THAT EMBRACES... THAT REALLY IS ESSENTIALLY AROUND THREE OR FOUR THINGS NOW. IT'S ABOUT CULTURE, CLASS, IDENTITY, IT'S ABOUT AN URBAN, MORE EDUCATED, MORE MULTICULTURAL, MORE DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE ON THE ONE HAND; AND A RURAL, LESS EDUCATED, MORE RELIGIOUS GROUP OF PEOPLE ON THE OTHER HAND. AND THAT DIVIDE HAS ACTUALLY BEEN EXACERBATED BY THE PANDEMIC. WHO HAS DONE WELL IN THIS PANDEMIC? THE DIGITAL ELITE. PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME WHO CAN CONTINUE TO DO OUR JOBS IN THE DIGITAL ECONOMY. WHO HAS NOT FARED SO WELL, RIGHT? IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH THEIR HANDS. WHO MOVE NOT... YOU KNOW, WE MOVE SYMBOLIC OBJECTS. WE MANIPULATE WORDS, IMAGES, COMPUTER CODE, THINGS LIKE THAT FOR A LIVING. PEOPLE WHO MANIPULATE PHYSICAL OBJECTS FOR A LIVING FOUND THEMSELVES IN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIMES. SO THE DIVIDE CONTINUES, AND AS A RESULT, THE POLARIZATION CONTINUES.

Steve says WELL, LET ME FOLLOW UP ON THAT LEFT VERSUS RIGHT IN YOUR COUNTRY RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE... I HADN'T ACTUALLY SAID IT... I HAD NOT SEEN IT REALLY DESCRIBED AS COGENTLY AS YOU DID IN YOUR BOOK WHEN YOU SAID VERY LITTLE GETS DONE IN AMERICA BECAUSE THE RIGHT WANTS TO PREVENT GOVERNMENTS FROM DOING ANYTHING BECAUSE OF ITS NATURAL DISTRUST OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE LEFT WANTS TO PUT SO MANY REGULATIONS IN PLACE TO TICK OFF SO MANY BOXES AND PROTECT SO MANY PEOPLE THAT NOTHING CAN GET DONE FOR THAT REASON. AND I WONDER IF THAT'S... IS THAT STILL THE CASE IN AMERICA TODAY, AS YOU SEE IT?

Fareed says OH, YEAH. IT BECAME SO CLEAR WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE PANDEMIC BECAUSE THE COUNTRIES THAT SUCCEEDED BEST IN THE PANDEMIC WERE NOT THE DICTATORSHIPS VERSUS THE DEMOCRACIES, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WHAT TURNED OUT THE BEST PERFORMING COUNTRIES WERE THE COUNTRIES OF EAST ASIA WHICH HAVE THIS UNUSUAL ATTITUDE TOWARDS GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS THAT THEY LIKE MARKETS AND THEY EMBRACE FREE TRADE AND FREE MARKETS, I'M THINKING ABOUT THE SINGAPORES, SOUTH KOREAS, TAIWANS OF THE WORLD. AND YET THEY HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR THE IDEA OF A GOVERNMENT THAT IS EFFECTIVE AND COMPETENT. THINK OF SINGAPORE. IT IN SOME WAYS HAS A KIND OF NANNY STATE. SOUTH KOREA HAS A VERY INCLUSIVE STATE BY SOME STANDARDS. SO THE REALITY IS WHAT THEY HAVE FOUND IS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE QUANTITY OF GOVERNMENT, IT'S ABOUT THE QUALITY OF GOVERNMENT. AND WE'VE LOST SIGHT OF THAT IN THE WESTERN WORLD, FOR EXACTLY THE REASON I WAS DESCRIBING. YOU KNOW, ON THE RIGHT YOU HAVE PEOPLE SAY, LET'S STARVE THE BEAST. LET'S GIVE THE GOVERNMENT AS FEW RESOURCES AS POSSIBLE. AND THE LEFT SAYS, LOOK, IF WE HAVE GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY DO MINORITY HIRING, THAT IT'S ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND, THAT THEY PAY HIGHER UNION WORKERS, THAT THEY PAY MINIMUM WAGE, THAT THEY ADHERE TO ALL KINDS OF OTHER SOCIALLY BENEFICIAL GOODS. AND THE RESULT IS... I MEAN, STEVE, WITH AMERICAN INFRASTRUCTURE, IT COSTS I THINK SOMETHING LIKE FIVE TIMES AS MUCH TO BUILD SOMETHING IN NEW YORK CITY, SO SAY EXTEND THE SUBWAY LINE, THAN IT DOES IN PARIS. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOME... CHINA OR INDIA. IF WE'RE FIVE TIMES THE COST OF PARIS, PARIS IS A COUNTRY WITH... YOU KNOW, LEFT-WING POLITICS AND LOTS OF UNIONS. LEFT-WING POLITICS AND LOTS OF UNIONS. WE'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

Steve says IT DOES SPEAK TO THE ISSUE YOU ALSO RAISED IN THE BOOK IN THAT IT'S NOT THE QUANTITY OF GOVERNMENT BUT THE QUALITY OF GOVERNMENT THAT COUNTS. TELL US MORE OF WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

The caption changes to "Quality over quantity."

Fareed says LET'S LOOK AT TAIWAN WHICH REALLY GETS THE GOLD MEDAL FOR ITS HANDLING OF THE PANDEMIC. JUST TO REMIND PEOPLE. TAIWAN HAS 22 MILLION PEOPLE, AND AS OF NOW, THE LAST COUNT I SAW, IT HAD 15 CONFIRMED CoVID DEATHS. NEW YORK STATE HAS 19 MILLION PEOPLE AND IT HAS 55,000 CoVID DEATHS. SO THAT GIVES YOU A SCALE OF THE ACHIEVEMENT OF TAIWAN. NOW, HOW DID THEY DO IT? THEY DID IT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT THERE ACTED EARLY, AGGRESSIVELY, AND INTELLIGENTLY. EARLY, BECAUSE THEY HAD HAD EXPERIENCES WITH SARS, MERS, H1N1, AND THEY KNEW THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO JUMP ON THIS. AGGRESSIVELY. THEY DIDN'T TRUST THE DATA COMING OUT OF CHINA BECAUSE THEY KNEW IN THE PAST, AGAIN, THAT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT COULDN'T BE TRUSTED WITH THAT KIND OF DATA. INTELLIGENTLY IS PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT. IT'S NOT JUST THAT THEY DID TESTING AND TRACING. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART THEY DID WAS ISOLATION OF THOSE WHO HAVE CoVID. BECAUSE IT TURNS OUT, IF YOU CAN ISOLATE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CoVID, THAT SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE INITIALLY, THE REST OF THE POPULATION CAN GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS NORMALLY. SO TAIWAN ACHIEVED THE RESULTS I DESCRIBED WITHOUT A SINGLE LOCKDOWN. AND BY THE WAY, SINGAPORE, SOUTH KOREA, VIETNAM BASICALLY HAVE NO LOCKDOWNS. JAPAN ALSO NO LOCKDOWNS. NOW, WHY WAS THAT POSSIBLE? BECAUSE THEY APPROACHED THIS FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF SAYING: WE ARE GOING TO GET THIS RIGHT IN TERMS OF WHAT IS THE BEST STRATEGY TO GO FORWARD. WE DON'T TAKE THAT APPROACH IN THE UNITED STATES. WE WORRY ABOUT THE CIVIL LIBERTIES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING ASKED TO QUARANTINE. AND THIS IS AGAIN BEING DONE IN DEMOCRACIES. YES, 1 percent OF TAIWAN WAS DEPRIVED OF THEIR LIBERTIES FOR 14 DAYS WHILE THEY WERE BEING QUARANTINED. BUT THE OTHER 99 percent WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE LIFE AS NORMAL. WHEREAS WE IN THE WEST SAID: WE CAN'T DO THAT, DEPRIVING PEOPLE OF THEIR LIBERTY BY HAVING ENFORCED QUARANTINES OR WE'LL SHUT DOWN THE ENTIRE ECONOMY. WE'LL PUT TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OUT OF WORK. WE'LL SHUTTER HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BUSINESSES. AND THAT DOESN'T CONSTITUTE AN INFRINGEMENT OF LIBERTY? THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE A FEATURE OF THE 21ST CENTURY. IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU'RE TAXING AND HOW MUCH YOU'RE SPENDING, HOW BIG THE GOVERNMENT IS. IT'S ABOUT: ARE YOU DOING IT SMART? HAVE YOU FIGURED OUT THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO DO SOMETHING? THE UNITED STATES SPENDS A LOT OF TIME ON THAT. WE'RE STILL MIRED IN THESE DEBATES THAT BIDEN IS A SOCIALIST, TRUMP IS AN ULTRA-CAPITALIST. NONE OF THAT EXPLAINS WHY THE CENTRES FOR DISEASE CONTROL, THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, AND THE DEPARTMENT OF HHS COULDN'T PUT A MASS TESTING AND TRACING SYSTEM.

Steve says SINCE YOU WERE TALKING TAIWAN, LET'S STAY OVER THERE. I KNOW THE G-7 JUST GOT FINISHED. IN MANY RESPECTS WE LIVE IN A G-2 WORLD RIGHT AS OPPOSED TO A G-7 WORLD. YOU POINT IT OUT IN YOUR BOOK. THE U.S. AND CHINA ARE THE TWO HEGEMONIES RIGHT NOW. AS YOU LOOK FORWARD, DO YOU SEE ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT COULD POTENTIALLY CHALLENGE THE DISPROPORTIONATE INFLUENCE THAT THOSE TWO COUNTRIES HAVE ON THE WORLD STAGE TODAY?

The caption changes to "Geopolitics."

Fareed says NO. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO THINK INDIA WILL PLAY THAT ROLE, AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THE INDIAN ECONOMY IS NOW... 20 YEARS AGO, THE CHINESE ECONOMY WAS TWICE AS LARGE AS THE INDIAN ECONOMY. IT IS NOW FIVE TIMES AS LARGE AS THE INDIAN ECONOMY. AND IT IS PROBABLY GROWING FASTER THAN INDIA EVEN NOW. INDIANS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT MATH. AND THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND, THOSE LINES ARE NOT GOING TO MEET. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T GET FROM BEING ONE-FIFTH THE SIZE OF CHINA'S ECONOMY TO BEING THE SAME SIZE AS THE CHINESE ECONOMY WHEN YOU'RE GROWING AT THE SAME PACE, LET ALONE SLOWER. SO EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, BY AND LARGE, ARE ON A SLOWER GROWTH TRAJECTORY, AS IS JAPAN. SO WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND AT THE REST OF THE WORLD, THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT ARE GROWING FAST. BUT THEY'RE JUST NOT OF THE SIZE, THEY DON'T HAVE THE SCALE THAT COULD MATTER IN THIS SENSE. SO WE ARE I THINK IN A WORLD... I DESCRIBE IT AS KIND OF EMERGING BIPOLAR WORLD. THE U.S. IS CLEARLY THE BIGGEST BY FAR. MUCH BIGGER THAN CHINA. BUT CHINA IS THE SECOND, AND HERE'S THE FASCINATING POINT. THIS IS WHY I CALL IT A BIPOLAR WORLD. THE TWO OF THEM ARE IN A LEAGUE OF THEIR OWN. THE CHINESE ECONOMY IS THE SECOND LARGEST IN THE WORLD BUT IT'S LARGER THAN THE THIRD, FOURTH, FIFTH, AND SIXTH ECONOMIES PUT TOGETHER. SIMILARLY, ITS DEFENCE BUDGET IS THE SECOND IN THE WORLD, WAY BELOW THE U.S. BUT ITS DEFENCE BUDGET TODAY IS LARGER THAN THE THIRD, FOURTH, FIFTH, AND SIXTH PUT TOGETHER. SO THAT IS RUSSIA, INDIA, BRITAIN, AND FRANCE'S DEFENCE BUDGETS PUT TOGETHER, JUST ABOUT EQUAL CHINA'S DEFENCE BUDGET. THAT'S WHY I SAY WE'RE IN A BIPOLAR WORLD. WHETHER THAT BIPOLARITY MEANS A COLD WAR, THAT'S THE GEOPOLITICAL QUESTION OF OUR TIME.

Steve says MANY PEOPLE ON THIS CONTINENT ARE ASKING THEMSELVES, CAN WE TRUST THE CHINESE TO GIVE US THE STRAIGHT BOOKS ON... FILL IN THE BLANKS. HOW THIS VIRUS STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE WOULD BE A GOOD QUESTION WE'D LIKE TO GET AN ANSWER TO. WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH WE CAN TRUST THE CHINESE TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM, TO GET STRAIGHT ANSWERS FROM THEM, TO STOP STEALING OUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, ET CETERA?

Fareed says IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED QUESTION. IT IS THE QUESTION. AND TO PUT IT IN A VERY INTERESTING WAY, HOW MUCH CAN WE TRUST THE CHINESE? I PUT IT THIS WAY: CHINA IS A DICTATORSHIP. IT IS IN THE NATURE OF DICTATORSHIPS TO CONTROL INFORMATION. SO THERE'S VERY LITTLE DOWNTOWN DOWNTOWN... DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT THE CHINESE ARE BEING SECRETIVE, OBSTRUCTIONIST, DUPLICITOUS AS IT RELATES TO CoVID, THESE LABS WORKING ON VIRUS IN ORDER TO COME UP WITH VACCINES AND TREATMENTS. BUT THE WAY, YOU KNOW, THIS WORKS IN A DICTATORSHIP, THINK OF CHERNOBYL, ANY MISTAKE HAS TO BE COVERED UP. TRANSPARENCY IS THE ENEMY OF A DICTATORSHIP. SO DON'T EXPECT TRANSPARENCY. DON'T EXPECT OPEN AND FREE FLOWS OF EXCHANGES OF INFORMATION. BUT THAT SAID, CHINA IS NOT RUSSIA. I THINK THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION TO MAKE. RUSSIA IS KIND OF A SPOILER ON THE WORLD STAGE. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA AND THE INVASION OF UKRAINE. THIS IS ALMOST UNPRECEDENTED SINCE 1945, TO LITERALLY JUST MARCH IN AND TAKE ANOTHER COUNTRY'S TERRITORY. IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IT'S BEEN DOING IN SYRIA, BANK-ROLLING REALLY MASS MURDER AND SLAUGHTER ON A SCALE THAT IS BREATHTAKING. IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IT IS DOING IN THE WORLD OF CYBER CRIME. IT HAS AT THE VERY LEAST IF NOT ENCOURAGED DIRECTLY MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF CYBER CRIME AND CYBER THREAT. CHINA IS NOT PLAYING THAT GAME. CHINA IS TRYING TO RISE WITHIN THE WORLD, GAIN INFLUENCE, GAIN STRENGTH, THE KIND OF TRADITIONAL GREAT POWER RISE. AND SO THERE ARE AREAS I THINK WHERE ONE COULD IMAGINE COOPERATING WITH THE CHINESE. THEY HAVE KEPT TO THEIR END OF THE BARGAIN ON A LOT OF THINGS, FROM CLIMATE CHANGE TO EVEN IN TRADE. THERE ARE PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE CERTAINLY CHEATED, BUT LET'S BE HONEST. THERE ARE PLACES WHERE THE UNITED STATES, CANADA, THE EUROPEAN UNION ALSO FUDGED THE RULES. CHINA HAS NOT PROVED TO BE AN OUTLIER IN THOSEP, AREAS. IT IS A RESPONSIBLE COUNTRY THAT MAKES COMMITMENTS AND KEEPS UP TO THEM. BUT DON'T EXPECT THEM TO BEHAVE LIKE A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY WITH REGARD TO SOMETHING LIKE INFORMATION. THEY'RE NOT.

Steve says LET'S PIVOT TO THE MIDDLE EAST NOW, FAREED. TO THAT END I WANT TO QUOTE SOMETHING YOU SAID RECENTLY IN THE WASHINGTON POST WHERE YOU SAID...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "The only way to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem." The quote reads "It has been the same way for decades. Every time violence between the Israelis and Palestinians erupts, governments around the world urge de-escalation, a cease-fire agreement is reached, and expert warn the situation cannot continue like this. But it has, and it will. Ultimately, this is not a problem that can be resolved through power, whether political or military. It can only be resolved through moral persuarion."
Quoted from Fareed Zakaria, Washington Post. May 20, 2021.

Steve says I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE NEW GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL THAT WAS JUST CREATED THE OTHER DAY. BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, THE PRIME MINISTER OF THE LAST DECADE... WELL, DECADE OR MORE, 12 YEARS, I GUESS, IS NOW GONE. BENNETT IS THE NEW PRIME MINISTER, AT LEAST FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS. DOES THAT IN YOUR VIEW OPEN UP ANY NEW POSSIBILITIES FOR THE MIDDLE EAST?

Fareed says NOT REALLY. I'LL TELL YOU WHY. NAFTALI BENNETT, WHO IS THE NEW PRIME MINISTER, IS TO THE LEFT OF NETANYAHU ON THE CORE ISSUE YOU WERE JUST ALLUDING TO, THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT. BENNETT IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PRIME MINISTER IN ISRAEL HISTORY TO ARGUE FORTH RIGHTLY THAT WHAT ISRAEL SHOULD DO IS ANNEX THE WEST BANK, NEVER ALLOW A PALESTINIAN STATE. HE HAS SAID HE HAS KILLED MANY ARABS DURING HIS TIME IN THE ISRAELI ARMY AND HE CELEBRATES THAT FACT. NOW, THIS IS NOT A MAN ABOUT TO USHER IN A PALESTINIAN STATE OR TO BEGIN SERIOUS NEGOTIATIONS ON THAT FRONT. HE HAS SAID, TO BE FAIR, THAT HE WILL GIVE UP HIS DREAMS TO PURSUE THIS COALITION GOVERNMENT. BUT YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN. IT'S VERY UNLIKELY THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET MORE MOVEMENT FROM HIM THAN YOU WOULD FROM NETANYAHU. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DESCRIBE IN THAT COLUMN. EVERYONE HAS BEEN TRYING TO KIND OF FORCE ISRAEL INTO MAKING CONCESSIONS TO THE PALESTINIANS, AND TO SCARE THEM BY SAYING, OTHERWISE THERE WILL BE TERRORISM. OTHERWISE THE ARABS WON'T LIKE YOU AND YOU'LL NEVER HAVE PEACE WITH THE ARABS. OTHERWISE YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO PROSPER ON THE WORLD STAGE. ALL THOSE PREDICTIONS HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG. AS A SIMPLE MATTER OF FACT, ISRAEL HAS MANAGED TO BUILD A WALL, TO BUILD THESE EXTRAORDINARY ANTI-ROCKET MISSILE SYSTEMS, AND TO PUT IN PLACE INTELLIGENCE THAT HAS ESSENTIALLY ENDED THE PROBLEM WITH TERRORISM IN ISRAEL. EVEN WHEN THESE ROCKETS FALL, THEY GET INTERCEPTED. YOU CAN SEE THIS IN THE NUMBERS WHO DIE. FOR EVERY ISRAELI, 20 PALESTINIANS DIE IN THE RETALIATION. YOU WERE TOLD YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO PROSPER ON THE WORLD STAGE. ISRAEL IS BEING COURTED BY EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD FOR ITS TECHNOLOGICAL PROWESS, IN COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA... I GREW UP IN INDIA. INDIA HAD NO RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL WHEN I WAS GROWING UP. NOW OUT OF NECESSITY THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO. RUSSIA HAS FORGED RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL. THEY USED TO BE THE BIGGER BANK ROLLER OF THE PLA. ULTIMATELY THE ONLY WAY THIS ENDS IS IF THE ISRAELIS FEEL LIKE THEY CANNOT BEAR THE COST TO THEIR CONSCIENCE OF RULING FOUR TO FIVE MILLION PEOPLE WITHOUT GIVING THEM POLITICAL RIGHTS. IT'S A UNIQUE SITUATION IN THE WORLD. WHERE YOU HAVE THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE, PALESTINIANS, WHO HAVE BEEN TOLD YOU'LL NEVER BE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL AND YOU'LL NEVER BE CITIZENS OF YOUR OWN COUNTRY. IN THE POST COLONIAL WORLD, THIS IS A UNIQUE DILEMMA. AND THE ISRAELI LEFT CERTAINLY SEES IT AND WANTS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. THEY ARE CURRENTLY IN THE MINORITY. THE COUNTRY HAS MOVED PRETTY FAR RIGHT. BUT THAT'S THE DYNAMIC THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE IT. FOR 40 YEARS WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO SCARE ISRAEL INTO DOING IT AND THEY'RE NOT SCARED.

Steve says WELL, LET ME DO A QUICK FOLLOW-UP ON THIS BECAUSE I WONDERED WHETHER... I WONDERED WHETHER THERE WAS THE POSSIBILITY OF A NEW SCRIPT THIS TIME ONLY BECAUSE, AS YOU POINT OUT, THE NEW PRIME MINISTER IS ACTUALLY TO THE RIGHT OF THE OLD PRIME MINISTER, AND ON THE THEORY THAT ONLY NIXON COULD GO TO CHINA, I WONDERED IF THAT WAS AN OPENING. AND NOT ONLY THAT, ONE OF THE COALITION PARTNERS IN HIS GOVERNMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER IN ISRAELI HISTORY IS AN ARAB PARTY. IT'S AN ISLAMIST PARTY. AND I WONDER WHETHER THAT POSSIBILITY OPENS ANY DOOR EITHER. I DON'T KNOW. YOU TELL ME.

Fareed says IT'S A VERY GOOD POINT, STEVE. BUT THE REALITY IS YOU NEED TO BE POWERFUL AND SECURE TO MAKE THOSE KIND OF CONCESSIONS. SO WHEN NIXON WENT TO CHINA, YOU KNOW, HE HAD BEEN ELECTED PRESIDENT, HE HAD A POWERFUL MANDATE, AS IT WERE. IN THIS CASE, BENNETT IS A MINORITY PRIME MINISTER. IN FACT, HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE... HIS PARTY DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THE LARGEST NUMBER OF SEATS, THE LARGEST NUMBER OF SEATS ACTUALLY BELONG TO ANOTHER PARTY. HE ALSO HAS A PARTNER, LIEBERMAN, ANOTHER RIGHT-WING PARTY THAT ARGUES ESSENTIALLY FOR ETHNIC CLEANSING, THAT IS MOVING PALESTINIANS OFF LAND AND EVEN IF THEY'RE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, MOVING THEM OFF THE LAND AND KIND OF THROWING THEM INTO THE PALESTINIAN AREAS. BUT THEY DO ALSO HAVE THE ISRAELI ARABS, AS YOU POINT OUT. AND THAT PIECE OF IT, I HAVE TO SAY, WITHOUT BEING QUITE SURE WHAT I MEAN BY THIS, THAT PIECE OF IT IS HISTORIC BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE ACCEPTED THAT THE ISRAELI ARABS, WHO ARE 20 percent OF THE POPULATION OF ISRAEL, ARE LEGITIMATE POLITICAL ACTORS IN THE COUNTRY AND HAVE LEGITIMATE POLITICAL GRIEVANCES AND RIGHTS. AND, YOU KNOW, THAT COULD TAKE US INTO UNEXPECTED PLACES, ESPECIALLY IF THE PARTY, THE ARAB ISRAELI... THE ISRAELI ARAB PARTY, YOU KNOW, PERFORMS NORMALLY, DOESN'T DO SOMETHING CRAZY, PEOPLE WILL REALIZE IT'S A CLASSIC CASE OF KIND OF NORMALIZING SOMETHING THAT WAS BEING TREATED AS ABNORMAL. THAT THE ARABS WERE TREATED AS THE KIND OF ABNORMAL FIFTH COLUMN QUASI TRAITORS IN THE ISRAELI POLITICAL ESTABLISH: THEY'VE BEEN INCLUDED. THE WORLD HASN'T ENDED. NOTHING HAS BLOWN UP. PEOPLE REALIZE, HEY, MAYBE WE SHOULD... THEY ARE 20 percent OF THE POPULATION. MAYBE WE SHOULD BE EVEN COURTING THEIR VOTES. AND ONCE YOU START DOING THAT, MAYBE THAT CHANGES THE DYNAMIC. THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE YOU MAY WELL BE RIGHT. IT'S PROBABLY A LONGER-TERM ISSUE THAN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS, BUT IT IS HISTORIC.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says I THINK THIS IS THE POINT WHERE I SHOULD SAY, IN SHALA.

Fareed says EXACTLY.

Steve says LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY AND MINE. I THINK I'VE HEARD YOU IN THE PAST THE GREAT AMERICAN DREAM KIND OF RESIDES IN CANADA. WE HAVE MEDICARE FOR ALL IN THIS COUNTRY. PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY CAN GET A REALLY GREAT POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION WITHOUT GOING 300,000, 400,000 dollars IN DEBT. DOES THE AMERICAN DREAM LIVE MORE IN CANADA THAN WHERE YOU ARE?

Fareed says IN ONE VERY IMPORTANT SENSE IT DOES, AND THAT WAS THE ONE I WAS WRITING ABOUT IT. YOU ALLUDED TO PART OF IT, THE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS. THE BASIC METRIC I LOOK AT IS, WHAT I THINK MOST AMERICANS THINK OF WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THE AMERICAN DREAM, WHICH IS THE ABILITY TO BECOME RICHER THAN YOUR PARENTS. YOU KNOW, IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT DEFINES WHAT IT MEANS TO TALK ABOUT THE AMERICAN DREAM, IT'S THAT IDEA OF THE IMMIGRANT FAMILY THAT COMES OVER AND THEN THEIR CHILDREN SUCCEED IN WAYS THAT THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO. SO THAT'S WHAT WE CALL SOCIAL ECONOMIC MOBILITY. THERE ARE VERY GOOD TRACKERS FOR THIS. AND THE DATA SHOWS CANADA HAS STRONGER SOCIAL MOBILITY THAN THE UNITED STATES. IF YOU WERE BORN IN THE LOWEST DECILE OF INCOME IN CANADA, YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO MOVE UP THAN YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES. WHY IS THAT? IT'S PROBABLY BECAUSE, BROADLY SPEAKING, YOUR PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM IS MORE EQUITABLE AND BETTER. AND YOU HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE AND ALSO A NUMBER OF OTHER PROGRAMS THAT HELP POOR PEOPLE MORE THAN WE HELP POOR PEOPLE IN AMERICA. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE FACE IN AMERICA IS WE SPEND... PEOPLE THINK AGAIN AMERICA HAS A SMALL GOVERNMENT. WE ACTUALLY DON'T WHEN YOU ADD IT ALL UP. WE JUST SPEND A LOT OF THAT MONEY ON THE MIDDLE CLASS. THINK ABOUT THE INTEREST DEDUCTION ON MORTGAGES, SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ACTUALLY HELPING THE POOR, WE DO VERY LITTLE. AND THAT REALITY MEANS THAT SMART POOR KIDS DO NOT MOVE UP AS FAST AS THEY SHOULD. IF YOU CAN'T SOLVE THAT PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES, I THINK WE ARE CONDEMNED TO HAVE TO ACCEPT WHAT I SAID, WHICH IS THAT THE AMERICAN DREAM IN THAT SENSE IS DOING BETTER IN CANADA AND IN NORTHERN EUROPE THAN IN THE UNITED STATES.

Steve says FAREED, LET'S FINISH UP... BOY, THIS HALF-HOUR, I TELL YOU, HAS FLOWN BY. AND WE'RE DOWN TO THE LAST QUESTION, UNFORTUNATELY. BUT LET'S TRY THIS. BEFORE CoVID, AS YOU LOOK BACK OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES, THE TWO BIGGEST, MOST SIGNIFICANT GLOBAL EVENTS I GUESS WERE 9-11, 20 YEARS AGO, AND THE GREAT RECESSION OF 2008 AND THE SUBSEQUENT IMPACT OF ALL OF THAT. ON YOUR LIST OF SORT OF GLOBAL CATACLYSMIC EVENTS, WHERE DOES CoVID-19 RANK VIS-A-VIS THOSE TWO?

The caption changes to "The forecast."

Fareed says I THINK IT IS BROADER AND DEEPER IN MANY SENSES. IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IF YOU WERE A PERSON LIVING IN JAPAN OR SOUTH AFRICA OR BRAZIL, 9-11 DIDN'T MEAN VERY MUCH TO YOU. IT WAS SOMETHING BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND MAYBE A FEW WESTERN COUNTRIES ON OTHER SIDE AND YOU MANY A FEW ISLAMIC COUNTRIES ON THE OTHER SIDE. YOU HAVE FANCY NEW AIRPORT SCANNERS FOR SECURITY, BUT OTHER THAN THAT, IT DIDN'T CHANGE YOUR WORLD. 08-'09, WE CALL IT GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS BUT IT WAS REALLY A WESTERN FINANCIAL CRISIS. AGAIN, IF YOU LIVED IN INDIA OR CHINA OR INDONESIA, IT DIDN'T REALLY AFFECT YOU MUCH. THERE WAS A RECESSION AS A RESULT OF IT, BUT ACTUALLY QUITE SHALLOW IN THOSE COUNTRIES. THE PANDEMIC, ON THE OTHER HAND, HAS AFFECTED EVERY HUMAN BEING IN THE WORLD. IT'S THE FIRST EVENT THAT I CAN THINK OF THAT IS TRULY A GLOBAL EXPERIENCE IN THAT SENSE. ANY WAY YOU GO, ANYONE YOU TALK TO, ANY COUNTRY, THEY'RE ALL IN SOME WAY EXPERIENCING THE PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS, THE ECONOMIC CRISIS THAT FOLLOWS, AND THEN THE POST-CoVID RECOVERY, THE QUESTIONS, HOW MUCH WILL WE GO BACK? WHAT WILL A NEW POST-CoVID WORLD LOOK LIKE? EVERYONE IS FACING THESE CHALLENGES. AND IT SHOULDN'T SURPRISE US IN SOME SENSE. THIS WAS THE GREAT RESHAPER IN HISTORY, HISTORICALLY. SO IF YOU GO BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS, THE THING THAT COULD KILL PEOPLE ON A MASSIVE SCALE WAS A PANDEMIC. NOT EVEN A WAR BECAUSE IF YOU GO BACK BEFORE SAY THE 19TH CENTURY, WARS WERE BATTLES FOUGHT BETWEEN ARMIES, OFTEN VOLUNTEER ARMIES ON BATTLEFIELD WHERE THEY'D STOP IN THE NIGHT AND START AGAIN IN THE DAY. IT WAS PLAGUES THAT CAUSED HUGE TRANSFORMATIONS. IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WESTERN LITERATURE BEGINS WITH THE PLAGUE. THE ILIAD BEGINS... THE FIRST PAGES OF THE ILIAD ARE ABOUT THE PLAGUE, THE FIRST HISTORY WHERE WE HAVE IN THE WEST WHICH IS THE ACCOUNT OF THE MAYBE ATHENIAN DEMOCRACY WOULD HAVE TRIUMPHED AND I'M FANTASIZING, THE ROMAN EMPIRE AND THE MIDDLE AGES AND THE DARK AGES AND ALL THAT. SO THIS HAS BEEN THE MOTOR OF HISTORY FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL. I PREDICT THIS WILL CAST A LONG SHADOW ON THE WORLD FOR YEARS AND YEARS TO COME.

The caption changes to "Producer: Preeti Bhuyan, @PreetiBhuyan."

Steve says WE ARE HAPPY TO REMIND PEOPLE OF THE TITLE OF THE BOOK THAT IS OVER YOUR LEFT SHOULDER AS WE SPEAK: "TEN LESSONS FOR A POST-PANDEMIC WORLD." CNN's FAREED ZAKARIA. WHAT A DELIGHT TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM. THANKS FOR GIVING US SO MUCH TIME AND BE WELL.

Fareed says I REALLY ENJOYED THE CONVERSATION. THANK YOU.

Watch: Fareed Zakaria: Is this the Worst of Times?