Transcript: Ontario's Vaccination Strategy and Other Top Stories | Apr 16, 2021

Nam stands in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length straight brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a gray blazer over a blueblouse.

A wall screen behind her reads "The week in review."

Nam says THE AGENDA THIS WEEK ASSESSED CALLS FOR PAID SICK LEAVE AND DEBATED THE MERITS OF POLITICAL PARTIES IN CANADIAN DEMOCRACY. THE AGENDA'S WEEK IN REVIEW BEGINS EXAMINING THE PROVINCE'S VACCINE ROLLOUT.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

In a clip, Steve and a guest appear on split screens.
Steve is slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair.

A caption on screen reads "Ontario's COVID-19 vaccine plan pivot. A lot to consider."

Steve says 77.9 percent OF AVAILABLE VACCINE DOSES IN ONTARIO WERE ACTUALLY USED BY THE END OF LAST WEEK. 77.9 percent. WHICH MEANS THERE'S ALMOST A QUARTER OF THE DOSES THAT ARE STILL SITTING IN A FREEZER, PRESUMABLY, AND HAVE NOT YET BEEN USED. WHY WOULD THAT BE?

The caption changes to "Maxwell Smith. Ontario COVID-19 Vaccine Distribution Task Force. @maxwellsmith."

Maxwell is in his thirties, with short, receding brown hair and a full beard. He's wearing a dark blue suit and a white shirt.

He says THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS TO NOTE THERE. FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU LOOK ON ANY GIVEN DAY OF HOW MANY VACCINES HAVEN'T BEEN ADMINISTERED AS COMPARED TO THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN DELIVERED, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHEN THOSE VACCINES WERE ACTUALLY DELIVERED. WE'RE GETTING THOSE IN WEEKLY SHIPMENTS. SO OF COURSE IF WE RECEIVED A MILLION DOLLARS DOSES YESTERDAY, THEN IT WOULDN'T BE SURPRISING TO SEE A GAP OF A MILLION DOLLARS DOSES TODAY. THE OTHER THING THAT'S NOTING IS WE SEE CONSTANT DELAYS IN VACCINES, UNEXPECTED DELAYS OF WHEN THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO ARRIVE IN THE PROVINCE. THAT MEANS IF WE DON'T GET THE VACCINES ON MONDAY AND THEY END UP COMING ON THURSDAY, WE WILL HAVE 300,000 VACCINATION APPOINTMENTS THAT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BE HONOURED. SO HAVING AROUND THREE DAYS OF VACCINES TO BE ABLE TO USE FOR THOSE, IN CASE THERE IS A DELAY, IS PRUDENT. AND THAT, GIVEN THAT WE'RE DOING AROUND 100,000 VACCINES A DAY, WOULD END UP BEING AROUND 300,000 VACCINES IF WE WANTED THREE DAYS' CONTINGENCY. THE OTHER THING I'LL NOTE IS THAT FIGURE OF 77.9 percent, WHILE IT DOES SHOW THERE IS A GAP BETWEEN THAT AND 100 percent, IT IS THE SECOND HIGHEST ADMINISTRATION ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF ALL PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES SAVE FOR SASKATCHEWAN, AND IT'S COMPARABLE TO THAT IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS A PARAGON FOR VACCINATION ADMINISTRATION.

Steve says SO DON'T COMPARE ME TO THE ALL THE MIGHTY, COMPARE ME TO THE ALTERNATIVE.

Maxwell says I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT'S FEASIBLE. ABSOLUTELY WE WANT TO BE VACCINATING AS MANY PEOPLE AS WE POSSIBLY CAN AND ADMINISTERING EVERY SINGLE DOSE THAT WE GET. BUT IF WE WANT TO LOOK TO ONTARIO TO SAY ARE WE FAILING AS A PROVINCE, I WOULD SAY THIS APPEARS TO BE THE NORM ACROSS EVERY OTHER PROVINCE AND TERRITORY, EVERY OTHER STATE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND EVERY OTHER JURISDICTION THAT IS DOING THIS.

Steve says ALL RIGHT. LET'S MOVE ON TO THE ONTARIO LIBERAL LEADER, STEVEN DEL DUCA, HE HAD A NEWS CONFERENCE EARLIER TODAY IN WHICH HE CALLED FOR ALL EDUCATION WORKERS, PERIOD, FULL STOP, NOT JUST THOSE IN HOT ZONES, BUT EVERYONE TO BE VACCINATED AND THE THINKING WAS YOU COULD GET IT DONE THIS WEEK BECAUSE OF COURSE THIS IS MARCH BREAK WEEK, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT MARCH, IT'S APRIL, BUT IT'S MARCH BREAK WEEK. THIS IS THE WEEK THAT KIDS ARE OFF. WHEN IT COMES TO... MARIE, I'LL GET YOU TO START ON THIS ONE... WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING TEACHERS, CARETAKERS, STUDENTS, PRINCIPALS, EVERYBODY, IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO DO IT NOW?

The caption changes to "Maria Sundaram. ICES."
Then, it changes again to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Maria is in her thirties, with long straight brown hair and bangs. She's wearing a midnight blue shirt.

She says I THINK THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO USE EMPTY SCHOOLS TO VACCINATE TEACHERS. WE'VE SEEN THAT WORK IN OTHER PROVINCES. AND ALSO ACROSS THE U.S. AS WELL. YOU KNOW, I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE LENGTH OF TIME THAT IT'S TAKEN TO GET VACCINES TO TEACHERS GIVEN THAT THERE ISN'T A PROVINCE-WIDE POLICY FOR SCHOOLS TO BE CLOSED RIGHT NOW. SO THIS IS VERY, VERY CONCERNING, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS EXPLODING NUMBER OF VARIANTS OF CONCERN. WE'RE STARTING TO SEE THAT THAT IS AFFECTING CHILDREN IN OTHER AREAS. IN ISRAEL, ITALY, ACROSS THE U.S. AS WELL. SO I DON'T THINK WE CAN SORT OF LOOK AT THE DATA AND SAY, YOU KNOW, HISTORICALLY, THROUGHOUT THE PAST YEAR, SARS-CoV-2 HASN'T AFFECTED CHILDREN, SO THAT'S OKAY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO PRIORITIZE SCHOOLS. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A PANDEMIC OF VARIANTS. SO IT IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT WE FOCUS ON TEACHERS AND EVERYONE ELSE THAT WORKS IN A SCHOOL.

Steve says SABINA, IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET EVERYBODY DURING THIS WEEK WHEN THE SCHOOLS ARE SHUT DOWN, TO GET EVERYBODY WHO NEEDS A VACCINATION VACCINATED?

The caption changes to "Sabina Vohra-Miller. Unambiguous Science."

Sabina is in her thirties, with long, straight brown hair. She's wearing a tan blazer and a floral print blouse.

She says OKAY. SO THE VIRUS WORKS 24-7. IT DOES NOT TAKE A BREAK. SO OUR RESPONSE HAS TO BE IMMEDIATE. IT HAS TO BE URGENT. EVERY VACCINE THAT'S SITTING IN A FREEZER RIGHT NOW THAT IS NOT GOING IN SOMEONE'S ARM IS A LIFE THAT COULD BE SAVED. ABSOLUTELY, WE SHOULD BE DOING EVERYTHING. WE SHOULD BE HAVING 24-7 CLINICS AND WE HAVE TO BE VACCINATING AS FAST AS WE CAN.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says ALL RIGHT. LET'S MOVE ON TO LONG-TERM CARE. YOU MAY KNOW THE NATIONAL POST COLUMNIST, FINANCIAL POST COLUMNIST, DIANE FRANCIS WHO DID A PIECE RECENTLY ON WHETHER OR NOT THE VACCINE SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR THOSE WORKING IN HOSPITALS OR LONG-TERM CARE HOMES, AND HERE IS A LITTLE OF WHAT SHE WROTE BACK A FEW DAYS IN THE FINANCIAL POST...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Call for mandatory vaccines for health workers." The quote reads "GOVERNMENTS CANNOT ALLOW WORKER RIGHTS TO TRUMP PATIENT RIGHTS. ALL PUBLIC-FACING HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO BE VACCINATED, UNDER THE THREAT OF TERMINATION. CARE HOMES SHOULD ALSO REQUIRE ALL STAFF AND CONTRACTORS TO BE VACCINATED, AS A CONDITION OF THEIR EMPLOYMENT.
THE HEALTH-CARE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK AFTER THE SICK AND THE VULNERABLE, BUT IT CAN'T DO THAT IF RECKLESS MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ARE EXPOSING PATIENTS TO COVID-19."
Quoted from Diane Francis, Financial Post. April 1, 2021.

Steve says OKAY, MAXWELL, DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH WHAT SHE HAS SUGGESTED OUGHT TO BE DONE HERE?

Maxwell says YEAH. I THINK MANDATE FOR VACCINES CAN BE ETHICALLY JUSTIFIED. OF COURSE, WE HAVE THEM FOR SCHOOLS IN ONTARIO. WHEN I WORKED IN HOSPITALS, I HAD TO SHOW THAT I WAS VACCINATED AGAINST CERTAIN PATHOGENS. I THINK THAT WE NEED TO CERTAINLY THINK ABOUT THE BALANCING BETWEEN PUBLIC HEALTH BENEFITS AND INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve and a guest appear on split screens.

A caption on screen reads "Sick days in pandemic hot zones. Paid leave?"

Steve says YOU JUST HEARD PREMIER FORD SAY WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT. THERE'S ALREADY A FEDERAL PROGRAM IN PLACE. STILL WITH 750 MILLION DOLLARS IN PLACE. WHO'S RIGHT HERE?

The caption changes to "Sheila Block. Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives."

Sheila is in her fifties, with short white hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a printed blue blouse.

She says I THINK THAT WE JUST HAVE TO CLEARLY SAY THAT THE PREMIER IS WRONG HERE. THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THAT PROGRAM AND PAID SICK LEAVE. TO APPLY FOR THE CSRB, IT TAKES SEVEN STEPS BETWEEN APPLYING FOR IT AND GETTING IT. IF YOU HAVE PAID SICK LEAVE, THERE'S ONE STEP. YOU CALL IN SICK AND YOU'RE PAYCHEQUE DOESN'T CHANGE. AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO REINFORCE HERE THAT THIS IS A WORKFORCE THAT IS LOW WAGE AND CANNOT AFFORD EITHER THE UNCERTAINTY, WHICH ACCOMPANIES THAT FEDERAL BENEFIT IN TERMS OF YOU'RE NOT SURE WHETHER YOU'LL GET IT OR NOT, AND ALSO CAN'T AFFORD THE WAIT TIMES. SO THOSE ARE TWO CRUCIAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE FEDERAL BENEFIT AND PAID SICK LEAVE THAT MAKE IT LESS LIKELY THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ACCESS IT. AND WE HAVE VERY GOOD PROOF OF HOW THAT'S NOT HAPPENING. THE PREMIER HIMSELF STATED THAT THERE IS STILL 700 MILLION DOLLARS LESS THERE, AND WE ARE STILL SEEING HUGE AMOUNTS OF TRANSMISSION OF THE VIRUS IN WORKPLACES. SO I REALLY THINK WE NEED TO TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH, AND WE REALLY NEED PUBLIC POLICY TO PUT NO BARRIERS IN BETWEEN PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR HEALTH, TO TAKE CARE OF THE HEALTH OF THEIR CO-WORKERS AND THE PUBLIC AT LARGE.

Steve says LET ME JUST CLARIFY A COUPLE OF THINGS. ONE OF THE ALLEGATIONS THAT HAS BEEN MADE IS THAT THERE'S STILL 750 MILLION DOLLARS IN THIS FEDERAL SICK LEAVE FUND BECAUSE IT'S UNDERSUBSCRIBED. PEOPLE THINK IT'S TOO DIFFICULT TO GET, SO THEY DON'T APPLY FOR IT. TRUE OR FALSE?

Sheila says YES, THAT IS TRUE IN TERMS OF THE ESTIMATE OF THE AMOUNT OF TAKE-UP IS THAT ESTIMATED... THE TAKE-UP RATE... MY APOLOGIES. THE TAKE-UP RATE IS MUCH SLOWER THAN HAD BEEN EXPECTED. AND WHAT WE ASSUME IS THAT THE DIFFICULTIES IN ACCESSING IT AND THE UNCERTAINTIES ASSOCIATED WITH IT ARE THE REASON FOR THAT.

Steve says NOW, MARCY, ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PREMIER FORD HAS BEEN RELUCTANT TO BRING IN THE KIND OF SICK DAYS POLICY THAT SHEILA JUST ENUNCIATED IS HE THINKS BUSINESSES ARE ALREADY SUFFERING ENOUGH AND THEY CAN'T BE EXPECTED TO TAKE ON THE FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY OF YET ANOTHER PROGRAM WHEN THEY'RE ALREADY ON THE EDGE OF A CLIFF. WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON THAT?

The caption changes to "Marcy Burchfield. Toronto Region Board of Trade."
Then, it changes again to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Marcy is in her forties, with shoulder-length dark red hair. She's wearing glasses, a silver pendant necklace and a black blouse.

She says WELL, CERTAINLY, I MEAN, WE'RE IN NEW TERRAIN HERE, STEVE, RIGHT? CoVID, THE REALITIES THAT CoVID HAS LAID ON GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE TO BALANCE THE PROTECTION OF HUMAN LIFE AS WELL AS FAIRLY SUPPORT BUSINESSES WHO, AGAIN, HAVE BEEN MAKING INCREDIBLE SACRIFICES THROUGHOUT THIS PANDEMIC AND HAVE BEEN HIT SOME OF THE HARDEST AFTER THOSE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES. AND I THINK WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS IS CONSISTENCY, AND IT'S SIMPLY TO KNOW WHAT SUPPORTS THEY HAVE, WHAT PARAMETERS BUSINESSES CAN WORK WITHIN, WHAT'S ON THE HORIZON IF THE GOVERNMENT CHOOSES TO SUPPORT PAID SICK LEAVE, THEN BUSINESS CAN FACTOR THAT INTO THEIR PLANS. BUT REALLY IT'S ALL ABOUT CONSISTENCY. AND CONSISTENCY IN OUR APPROACH TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE, AND WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT, TO REALLY REOPEN THE ECONOMY.

Steve says BUT, DANIEL, I PRESUME BEFORE THE PANDEMIC HIT, IF YOU WERE SICK, YOU KNOW, YOU CALLED IN TO YOUR EMPLOYER AND YOU SAID "I CAN'T COME IN TODAY." AND YOU WOULD STILL GET YOUR SALARY, AND THE BUSINESS IN QUESTION WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING THAT SALARY. WE'RE POST-PANDEMIC NOW. WE'RE INTO THE PANDEMIC NOW. IS IT YOUR VIEW THAT THE EXPENSE OF PAYING FOR SICK DAYS FOR EMPLOYEES WHO CAN'T COME IN BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO INFECT THEIR COLLEAGUES AT THE WORKPLACE, IN YOUR VIEW WHO SHOULD PAY FOR THAT NOW?

The caption changes to "Daniel Safayeni. Ontario Chamber of Commerce."

Daniel is in his thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit and a white shirt.

He says LOOK, STEVE, ENSURING PEOPLE DURING A PANDEMIC CAN AFFORD TO STAY HOME IS BOTH... IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. IT'S BOTH MORALLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO AND IT'S ECONOMICALLY SOUND AS WELL. WHEN A WORKER PROTECTS THEMSELVES, THEY ARE PROTECTING THEIR COLLEAGUES, THEY ARE PROTECTING THEIR EMPLOYER, THEY'RE SAFEGUARDING THE BUSINESS AND THE COMMUNITY BY EXTENSION. SO OUR POSITION ON THIS IS THAT BUSINESSES, PARTICULARLY SMALL BUSINESSES, SIMPLY CANNOT AFFORD THE ADDITIONAL FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY TO FUND SICK LEAVE AT THIS TIME. WHICH IS WHY WE SUPPORT THE NOTION OF TEMPORARY PAID SICK PROGRAM THAT IS PAID FOR BY GOVERNMENT. SHEILA JUST NOW DID A GREAT JOB OF EXPLAINING WHAT SOME OF THE SHORTCOMINGS ARE OF THE FEDERAL BENEFIT PROGRAM. BUT JUST AS OTHER PROGRAMS AND BENEFITS THAT HAVE BEEN ROLLED OUT OVER THE LAST YEAR HAVE BEEN TWEAKED, IMPROVED, OR AMENDED TO FILL IN THE GAPS, WE DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY THE VERY SAME CAN'T BE APPLIED IN THIS INSTANCE AS WELL.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Daniel continues AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE HOPE TO SEE BOTH THE PROVINCE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, WORK TOGETHER TO EXPLORE EITHER A REFORM OF THE CURRENT BENEFIT OR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF ADDITIONAL SUPPORTS SO THAT WHEN PEOPLE CAN STAY HOME... RATHER, WHEN PEOPLE NEED TO STAY HOME, THEY'RE ABLE TO DO SO SAFELY AND THEY DON'T NEED TO CHOOSE BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, FOLLOWING PUBLIC HEALTH ORDERS AND BEING ABLE TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

A guest speaks on screen.
A caption on screen reads "Do political parties have a future?

The caption changes to "David Herle. Host, 'The Herle Burly' Podcast."

David Herle is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with wavy gray hair. He's wearing a black suit and shirt.

He says WITHOUT A PARTY SYSTEM, PEOPLE DON'T (a) KNOW WHO THEY SHOULD VOTE FOR AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHO'S ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT. AND SO LET'S TAKE THE FIRST PIECE OF IT. ALL OF THE DATA I'VE EVER SEEN INDICATES THAT ABOUT 5 percent OF CANADIANS REALLY VOTE ON THE BASIS OF THEIR LOCAL CANDIDATE. AND THAT TENDS TO BE IN RURAL AREAS WHERE PEOPLE KNOW THEIR LOCAL CANDIDATE. IN MOST PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THE CANDIDATES FOR THE PARTIES ARE. THEY VOTE EITHER FOR THE LEADER OR FOR THE POLICY PROGRAM OF THE PARTY. AND THAT IS HOW ALL OF WHAT'S GOING ON IS DECODED FOR THEM SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE A CHOICE ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT. THEN SIMILARLY, IF I'M IN TORONTO AND I DON'T LIKE WHAT'S GOING ON, CAN I BLAME JOHN TORY FOR THAT? HE'S ONE VOTE ON THE COUNCIL. THE ACCOUNTABILITY IS SO OBSCURE, I DON'T KNOW WHO TO BLAME. WHEREAS IN A PARTISAN SYSTEM, WHEN I'M UNHAPPY WITH THE GOVERNMENT, I KNOW EXACTLY WHOSE NECK TO CHOKE. AND SO I THINK FOR THOSE TWO REASONS... I MEAN, SUSAN'S DONE A LOT MORE THINKING AND RESEARCH ABOUT THIS THAN I HAVE. BUT I HAVE TROUBLE SEEING HOW IT WOULD WORK AND WHETHER IT WOULD BE DESIRABLE FOR IT TO WORK.

Steve says WE'LL GET MORE FEEDBACK ON THIS AND LET SUSAN RESPOND TO WHAT SHE IS HEARING. SEAN, YOU'RE A GUY WHO BACK IN THE DAY SPENT TIME IN PARTY POLITICS WORKING FOR CONSERVATIVES. CAN YOU IMAGINE A POLITICAL SYSTEM IN CANADA THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE PARTISAN POLITICS?

The caption changes to "Sean Speer. Public Policy Forum."

Sean is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short black hair. He's wearing a gray suit and a blue shirt.

He says THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO. I THINK THAT THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT PROBLEMS OR WEAKNESSES IN OUR DEMOCRACY IS TERRIBLY IMPORTANT. BUT I'M NOT SURE THE SOLUTION IS TO DISCARD PARTIES. IN FACT, I THINK THERE'S A PERSUASIVE ARGUMENT IN FACT THAT WE OUGHT TO HAVE MORE PARTIES. THAT ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS THAT THESE LARGE BROKERAGE PARTIES AREN'T BRINGING EXPRESSION TO LARGE MINORITIES IN OUR COUNTRY, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, HARD-CORE PROGRESSIVES, WHETHER IT'S PRO-LIFE VOICES, WHETHER IT'S THOSE WHO HAVE MISGIVINGS ABOUT CANADA'S IMMIGRATION SYSTEM AND YET CAN'T FIND EXPRESSION IN OUR CURRENT MAINSTREAM POLITICS. SO, YOU KNOW, I COULD GO ON, STEVE, BUT I THINK, IN SHORT, I'VE INCREASINGLY COME TO THE VIEW... AND THIS HAS BEEN THROUGH A KIND OF PERIOD OF INTROSPECTION, PROMPTED IN LARGE PART BY THE RISE IN POLITICAL POPULISM WHICH, YOU KNOW, IS OBVIOUSLY... HAS VERY COMPLICATING FACTORS. BUT AT SOME LEVEL REPRESENTS A KIND OF REJECTION OF THE LACK OF REPRESENTATIVENESS AND RESPONSIVENESS OF MODERN DEMOCRACY. AND FOR ME, IT'S MADE ME MORE OF A SMALL-D DEMOCRAT, AND IN TURN I THINK INCREASINGLY PERSUADED BY THE NEED FOR SOMETHING LIKE PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION, WHICH WOULD NOT LEAD TO FEWER PARTIES, IT WOULD ACTUALLY LEAD TO MORE PARTIES. IT WOULD BE A LESS EFFICIENT AND MESSIER POLITICS. BUT ULTIMATELY A MORE REPRESENTATIVE AND RESPONSIVE ONE. AND FOR ME, THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR TAKE-AWAYS OF THE POLITICAL DISRUPTION OF THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Steve says DAVID MOSCROP, WHERE ARE YOU ON THIS?

The caption changes to "David Moscrop. Author, 'Too dumb for Democracy.'"

David Moscrop is in his thirties, with long brown hair and a long beard. He's wearing glasses and a red plaid shirt.

He says WELL, IF PARTIES DIDN'T EXIST, YOU WOULD HAVE TO INVENT THEM, FOR REASONS THAT DAVID OUTLINED AND INCIDENTALLY I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH SEAN ON PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME SOCIALISTS IN LEGISLATURES. OUR PARTIES ARE ALL FUNDAMENTALLY LIBERAL, AND THAT DOES, I THINK, CLOSE OUT A LOT OF DEBATE THAT WE SHOULD LEGITIMATELY BE HAVING. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF JURISDICTIONS WHO HAVE TRIED TO DO AWAY WITH PARTIES OR TO MITIGATE THEIR FORCE, PARTIES CREEP BACK UP ANYWAY. THE UNITED STATES IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS. THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION IN THE UNITED STATES WERE WARY OF WHAT THEY CALLED FACTIONS. THEY DIDN'T LOVE THE IDEA OF PARTIES, BUT PARTIES CREPT IN ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY PERFORMED THE FUNCTIONS THAT DAVID TALKED ABOUT, THEY SORT OF CONSOLIDATED VOICES AND THEY ALLOWED FOR ACCOUNTABILITY. AND SO THE PARTIES FORM A NECESSARY PART OF OUR SYSTEM. I DON'T THINK PARTIES ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

David Moscrop continues I THINK PARTIES DONE POORLY IS THE PROBLEM. I THINK PARTIES THAT ARE TOO LEADER CENTRIC, PARTIES THAT ARE FUNDAMENTALLY IDENITARIAN AND TOXIC, END UP BEING ANTIDEMOCRATIC IN THAT WAY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEMS. YOU CAN DO PARTIES BETTER. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE EITHER/OR. CAN WE IMAGINE A DIFFERENT PART OF PARTY SYSTEM THAT INCLUDES PEOPLE AS MORE FUNCTIONAL. I DO THINK WE CAN. WE NEED PARTY REFORM. I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE DONE AWAY WITH BECAUSE THEY WILL RE-FORM ANYWAY.

The clips end and Nam stands in the studio alone.

She says THAT'S JUST SOME OF WHAT WE COVERED THIS WEEK ON THE AGENDA. FOR MORE, INCLUDING THE FULL CONVERSATIONS, YOU CAN VISIT OUR WEBSITE, tvo.org, OUR YouTube CHANNEL AT youtube.com/theagenda OR OUR TWITTER FEED: twitter.com/TheAgenda.

Watch: Ontario's Vaccination Strategy and Other Top Stories