Transcript: Why Concussions Outside of Sports Matter Too | Feb 01, 2021

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and brown tie.

A caption on screen reads "Why non-sport concussions matter too. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says 23 YEARS AGO TODAY, A FUTURE HOCKEY HALL OF FAMER NAMED PAUL KARIYA SUSTAINED A VICIOUS CROSS-CHECK TO THE HEAD DURING AN NHL GAME. IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH, YOU MAY WANT TO LOOK AWAY, BUT HERE'S WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE...

A clip plays on screen with the caption "May 7, 2012."
In the clip, Kariya skates towards the goal.

A commentator says AND HE WAS LEANING. HE HAD TO REACH OUT FOR THE PUCK...

Kariya and another player collide with their heads and Kariya collapses.

The commentator says OH, MAN.

Another commentator says THAT'S TWICE AS BAD AS I THOUGHT IT WAS. THAT WAS A CROSS-CHECK TO THE CHIN AND THE NECK. NO, NO...

Steve says IT WAS KARIYA'S FOURTH CONCUSSION IN THREE YEARS. REMARKABLY, HE CAME BACK TO PLAY FOR ANOTHER DECADE, BUT SUSTAINED TWO MORE CONCUSSIONS. EVENTUALLY, THE HEADACHES AND MEMORY LOSS WERE SIMPLY TOO MUCH, AND HE RETIRED IN 2011. HOWEVER, KARIYA'S CAREER PROMPTED TWO ONTARIO TWIN SISTERS WHO WERE HUGE HOCKEY FANS TO DEVOTE THEIR LIVES TO UNDERSTANDING CONCUSSIONS BETTER, AND TO PROMOTING IMPROVED AWARENESS, TREATMENT, AND PREVENTION. THEY ARE KNOWN ON YouTube AS "THE STEAM SISTERS," FOR THEIR VIDEOS ON SCIENCE COMMUNICATIONS. SO, LET'S WELCOME: IN THE NORTH END OF ETOBICOKE, THERE ARE: SANDHYA AND SWAPNA MYLABATHULA. THAT'S SANDHYA ON THE LEFT. SANDHYA IS A PhD CANDIDATE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO IN KINESIOLOGY AND PHYSICAL EDUCATION... SWAPNA IS AN MD PhD CANDIDATE AT THE U OF T's FACULTY OF MEDICINE...

Sandhya and Swapna are both in their thirties. With long dark brown hair. Sandhya wears her hair wavy and wears a printed vest and a black shirt. Swapna wears her hair curly and wears a burgundy blouse and a black vest.

Steve continues LET'S ALSO WELCOME, IN SAN FRANCISCO LACHIGOLO, MEXICO: CALYPSO KENNEY...

Calypso is in her thirties, with brown hair in a bun. She's wearing glasses and an embroidered blue blouse.

Steve continues AND IN SCARBOROUGH, ONTARIO: HUGO FUNG, BOTH OF WHOM HAVE SUSTAINED NON-SPORTS RELATED CONCUSSIONS, WHICH IS A HUGE AND OVERLOOKED PART OF THE STORY THAT WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON NOW.

Hugo is in his twenties, clean-shaven, with short black hair. He's wearing a red polo shirt.

Steve continues I'M GLAD TO WELCOME EVERYBODY TO TVO TONIGHT FOR THIS DISCUSSION. SANDHYA, GET US STARTED HERE. WE OF COURSE ALL KNOW ABOUT SPORTS-RELATED CONCUSSIONS. THEY GET A LOT OF ATTENTION. WHAT ABOUT OFF THE ICE OR OFF THE FIELD, LET'S SAY AT WORK: HOW DO PEOPLE TYPICALLY SUSTAIN CONCUSSIONS IN THE WORKPLACE, FOR EXAMPLE.

The caption changes to "Sandhya Mylabathula. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "It's not only on the ice."

Sandhya says THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. THANKS, STEVE. CONCUSSIONS CAN HAPPEN... MAINLY WE SEE IT IN SPORTS IN THE MEDIA, SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT STAYS IN OUR MINDS. IT CAN REALLY HAPPEN IN ANY CONTEXT IN OUR LIVES. AT WORK, ON THE ROAD, OR EVEN JUST AT HOME. IN THE WORKPLACE, ONE OF THE MOST COMMON CAUSES IS SLIPS, TRIPS, AND FALLS.

The caption changes to "Swapna Mylabathula. University of Toronto."

Swapna says THERE ARE SOME OTHER WAYS IT'S COMMON IN THE WORKPLACE, INCLUDING BEING STRUCK BY AN OBJECT. WHETHER THAT'S LOSING A GRIP AND HAVE IT STRIKE YOU IN THE HEAD OR IN SOME OTHER FASHION OR ON THE ROAD WHILE IN A WORKPLACE SETTING OR THINGS... PEOPLE ACTUALLY STRIKING OTHER PEOPLE IS ANOTHER COMMON.

Swapna says THOSE ARE THE TOP WAYS IT CAN HAPPEN IN THE WORKPLACE.

Steve says SWAPNA, YOU'RE DOING RESEARCH ON THE ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY YEARS IN SCHOOLS. HOW DO KIDS GET CONCUSSED AT SCHOOL, OBVIOUSLY ON THE PITCH OR ON THE PLAYING FIELD, WE UNDERSTAND, BUT AWAY FROM THERE. HOW DOES IT HAPPEN?

Swapna says YEAH, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION TOO. OF COURSE SPORTS REPRESENTS A LOT OF CONCUSSIONS THAT HAPPEN IN YOUTH. BUT WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE YOUNGER SUBSET OF THAT POPULATION, WE'RE LOOKING AT YOUNG, YOUNG CHILDREN, FALLS IS A VERY BIG FACTOR, AND THAT ACTUALLY DOES COME BACK INTO PLAY AGAIN AS WE GO THROUGH THE AGE SPECTRUM AND LOOK AT OLDER ADULTS AGAIN.

Steve says AND HOW WELL, SWAPNA, DO YOU THINK TEACHERS ARE, AND FOR THAT MATTER OTHER ADMINISTRATORS AT SCHOOL, HOW WELL ARE THEY TRAINED... I MEAN, EVERYBODY CAN RECOGNIZE A CUT OR A SPLIT LIP OR A BROKEN LEG, BUT CONCUSSIONS, THAT'S TOUGHER. ARE THEY WELL-TRAINED ENOUGH TO NOTICE THOSE AND DIAGNOSE THEM IF THEY HAVE TO?

Swapna says THAT'S A VERY BIG QUESTION. SO THERE'S ONGOING RESEARCH HAPPENING ABOUT THIS. I THINK WE CAN SAY THAT COMPARED TO SEVERAL YEARS AGO WE SEE VERY GOOD PROGRESS IN TERMS OF EDUCATION AND TRAINING AVAILABLE FOR THE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS, COACHES AND STUDENTS AND TEACHERS THEMSELVES DO ACTUALLY HAVE ACCESS TO TRAINING AND EDUCATION IN ONTARIO, THANKS TO THINGS LIKE ROMAN'S LAW AND POLICY PROGRAM MEMORANDUM 158 IN ONTARIO. WE DO SEE SOME GAPS STILL IN TERMS OF HOW WELL CERTAIN STAKEHOLDERS ARE REACHED. WE SEE TIME AND TIME AGAIN PARENTS CAN BE REACHED BETTER AND THEN THERE'S SOME CERTAIN GROUPS LIKE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS THAT PERHAPS CAN HAVE MORE ACCESS TO EDUCATION AND TRAINING MORE REGULARLY.

Sandhya says THIS ACTUALLY TRANSLATES TO THE GENERAL POPULATION. ACCORDING TO THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, ONLY ONE IN TWO CANADIANS ACTUALLY HAS LITTLE OR NO KNOWLEDGE OF A CONCUSSION, SO ONLY 50 percent OF THE POPULATION HAS SOME KNOWLEDGE OF A CONCUSSION.

Swapna says ABOUT 25 percent OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN CANADA KNOWS HOW A CONCUSSION IS TREATED OR MANAGED SO THAT DOES LEAVE ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT.

Sandhya says INDEED. AND 40 percent OF CANADIANS ONLY HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE TOOLS AND RESOURCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AROUND CONCUSSION.

Swapna says SO WE NEED TO INCREASE AWARENESS AND ACCESS TO THOSE RESOURCES FOR SURE.

Steve says SANDHYA, LET ME PICK UP ON THAT RIGHT NOW. WELL, IF YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'VE BEEN CONCUSSED, WHICH I GATHER HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT?

Sandhya says YEAH. IT'S A GREAT QUESTION TOO. SO IF... SO CONCUSSIONS THEMSELVES ARE AN INVISIBLE INJURY BECAUSE, AS YOU MENTIONED, IF YOU CAN SEE A CUT OR A BROKEN BONE, THAT'S A LOT EASIER. BUT WITH CONCUSSION, IT'S NOT VERY VISIBLE. SO THE ONLOOKER WOULDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT SOMEBODY HAD A CONCUSSION. SO THAT COULD MEAN THAT THE INDIVIDUAL, IF THEY'RE NOT SURE THEY HAVE A CONCUSSION, MIGHT MISS OUT ON THAT ACUTE PERIOD RIGHT AFTER THE INJURY THAT'S SO IMPORTANT TO ACTUALLY MANAGE IT CORRECTLY. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT [indiscernible] YOU'RE AT RISK FOR MORE COMPLICATIONS FURTHER DOWN THE LINE AND A LONGER RECOVERY PERIOD AND POTENTIALLY ALSO A LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE DURING THAT PERIOD AND THAT LONGER EFFECTS AFTER THAT AS WELL.

Steve says OKAY. WE'VE GOT SOME REAL-LIFE EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS. LET'S GO TO MEXICO. CALYPSO, YOU'RE IN MEXICO NOW, BUT WHERE ARE YOU FROM ORIGINALLY?

The caption changes to "Calypso Kenney. Lived with concussion."

Calypso says I'M FROM TORONTO BUT I WAS LIVING ON VANCOUVER ISLAND BEFORE THIS.

Steve says TELL US ABOUT YOUR CONCUSSION HISTORY. WHERE, WHEN, HOW DID YOU SUSTAIN IT?

Calypso says I WAS VOLUNTEERING AT A HORSE STAPLES AT THE TIME AND I WAS ACTUALLY CHASING A MINIATURE HORSE ACROSS THE FIELD AND I DOVE TO GRAB THE ROPE THAT ATTACHED TO THE HORSE'S HALTER AND WHEN I SAT UP SUDDENLY, I SLAMMED THE BACK OF MY HEAD INTO A WOODEN BEAM ON A FENCE. IT SOUNDS LIKE A REALLY SILLY ACCIDENT AND IN FACT I DIDN'T KNOW I HAD A CONCUSSION AND I KEPT WORKING FOR THREE MORE HOURS, AND IT WASN'T UNTIL I REALIZED I COULD NO LONGER HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE AND I WOULD FIND MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STABLE WITH NO IDEA WHAT TO DO THAT I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG.

Steve says AND HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN THIS HAPPENED?

Calypso says THIS WAS TWO YEARS AGO. SO I WOULD HAVE BEEN 29.

Steve says AND WAS THERE ANYBODY AROUND TO HELP YOU AFTER IT HAPPENED?

Calypso says NO. I WAS JUST WORKING BY MYSELF AND I THOUGHT, OH, THAT HURT. I GUESS I'LL HAVE A BRUISE LATER.

Steve says YOU THOUGHT YOU'D HAVE A BRUISED HEAD, BUT THAT WAS IT?

Calypso says YEAH.

Steve says AND YOU MENTION THAT YOU WERE HAVING DIFFICULTY HAVING A CONVERSATION, WHICH IS WHEN YOU FIRST NOTICED IT. JUST TELL US A BIT MORE DETAIL AROUND THAT. HOW WERE THE WORDS COMING OUT WHICH PRESUMABLY... I MEAN, IT MUST HAVE BEEN A BIT SCARY, WASN'T IT?

Calypso says IT WAS. IT WAS MY FIRST CONCUSSION, SO I WAS TRYING TO TALK TO SOMEONE AT THE HORSE STABLES AND I REALIZED THAT WORDS WERE COMING AT ME AND I COULDN'T SEEM TO PUT TOGETHER SENTENCES TO RESPOND TO THEM AND I DIDN'T QUITE KNOW WHAT TO DO OR WHAT WAS HAPPENING, AND I'M USUALLY A VERY ON-TOP LOGICAL PERSON. SO FINDING MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE OF WORK JUST WONDERING WHAT I WAS DOING WAS QUITE FRIGHTENING. I STILL DIDN'T KNOW I HAD A CONCUSSION AT THAT POINT. I TOOK MY BICYCLE AND BIKED HOME FOR 20 MINUTES AND THOUGHT, THIS WILL PASS IN ANOTHER HOUR. BUT IT DIDN'T.

Steve says LET ME JUST RUN OVER TO SWAPNA FOR A SECOND. CAN I ASSUME THAT WHEN YOU'VE SUSTAINED A CONCUSSION, GETTING ON A BICYCLE OR CONTINUING TO WORK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS PROBABLY NOT THE BEST TREATMENT FOR A CONCUSSION?

Swapna says THAT IS AN EXCELLENT ANALYSIS. AND IT'S DIFFICULT, THOUGH, BECAUSE WHEN YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE THAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING A CONCUSSION, YOU MAY JUST, YOU KNOW, DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE DOING BEFORE, CARRY ON DOING YOUR ACTIVITY, GO HOME, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, AND THAT'S DANGEROUS BECAUSE YOUR BRAIN IS VERY VULNERABLE IN THAT MOMENT AND YOU'RE OPEN TO FURTHER INJURY, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY WANT TO AVOID. SO WE SEE IN A LOT OF THE CONCUSSION GUIDELINES OUT THERE, WHETHER THAT BE IN SPORT OR WHETHER THAT BE OUTSIDE OF SPORT, THAT REMOVING YOURSELF FROM ACTIVITY IMMEDIATELY IS A VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR SO THAT YOU CAN START THE RECOVERY PROCESS.

Steve says CALYPSO, YOU MENTIONED IT WAS YOUR FIRST CONCUSSION. HAVE YOU HAD OTHERS?

Calypso says NO. THANKFULLY NO. I'VE BEEN REALLY CAREFUL SINCE THEN. EVERY TIME I BANG MY HEAD I FREAK OUT AND WORRY I'M GOING TO HAVE ANOTHER BECAUSE THAT ONE WAS SO HORRIBLE. I'VE BEEN LUCKY, AND JUST ONE.

Steve says SO FAR SO GOOD. AT WHAT POINT IN THAT DRAMA DID YOU ACTUALLY GET TREATMENT AND COME TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU IN FACT HAD HAD A CONCUSSION?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Calypso says IT ACTUALLY TOOK ME A WHILE. I WAS VERY STUBBORN AND I WENT TO MY REAL JOB THE NEXT DAY ON A FARM, WHICH HAS A LOT OF LOUD NOISES AND PHYSICAL ACTIVITY, AND BY THE END OF THE DAY, I REALIZED I WAS TOO SICK TO RIDE MY BICYCLE HOME. SO I WAS VERY LUCKY TO HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING BOSS, AND SHE DROVE ME TO THE DOCTOR THE NEXT MORNING AND HE TOLD ME THAT IT WAS LIKELY I HAD A CONCUSSION. SO I DIDN'T START MY TREATMENT UNTIL AT LEAST 24, 48 HOURS AFTERWARDS.

Steve says HMM. NOW, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO FLIP OVER TO SANDHYA HERE FOR A SECOND. THIS KIND OF, "I'M JUST GOING TO TOUGH IT THROUGH, I'M JUST GOING TO POWER THROUGH, I'M NOT GOING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ANYTHING IS WRONG," HOW TYPICAL IS THAT?

Sandhya says IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE TYPICAL. PART OF THIS IS THE SYMPTOMS YOU MAY HAVE EXPERIENCED WITH A CONCUSSION CAN ACTUALLY BE SEEN IN WIDE VARIETY OF CONDITIONS, WHETHER A DISORDER OR A HEADACHE. SOMEONE MIGHT THINK THEY HAVE A HEADACHE FOR A DAY OR SO AND LATER ON REALIZE THEY'VE HAD A CONCUSSION. AS WE'VE MENTIONED HAVING THAT MANAGEMENT AND THAT TREATMENT HAPPEN ACUTELY IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE INJURY IS SO IMPORTANT TO AVOID THE LONGER-TERM EFFECTS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, SO THAT CAN BE QUITE IMPORTANT AND A BIT TRICKY THERE FOR PEOPLE.

Steve says A QUICK FOLLOW-UP... SORRY, GO AHEAD?

Swapna says I WAS GOING TO SAY IT'S PARTICULARLY TRICKY BECAUSE AS MY SISTER WAS SAYING THERE ARE A LOT OF CONDITIONS AND DISORDERS THAT MIMIC THE SYMPTOMS. WE CAN TALK ABOUT CHRONIC PAIN, DEPRESSION, PTSD, DEVELOPMENTAL DISORDERS, LIKE ADHD, THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMILAR SYMPTOMS. SO THOSE SYMPTOMS OF A CONCUSSION ARE NON-SPECIFIC, WHICH DO MAKE IT VERY TRICKY FOR THE DIAGNOSIS AND FOR RECOGNITION BY THE INDIVIDUAL THEMSELVES, WHICH IS WHY AWARENESS IS SO IMPORTANT TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A CONTEXT IN WHICH CONCUSSION CAN HAPPEN. WHAT YOU'RE FEELING COULD BE A CONCUSSION AND TO, YOU KNOW, PLAY IT SAFE AND ERR ON THE SIDE OF SAFETY.

Steve says SO LET'S HONE IN THEN WITH CALYPSO ON, HOW DID YOU ACTUALLY CONCLUSIVELY KNOW THAT YOU HAD A CONCUSSION?

Calypso says THE DOCTOR BASICALLY TOLD ME. HE SAID, "YOU HAVE ALL THE SYMPTOMS FOR A CONCUSSION. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU BANGED YOUR HEAD REALLY HARD." HE SAID THERE'S NO TEST HE COULD GIVE ME BUT SAYS 100 PERCENT YOU HAVE A CONCUSSION. BUT HE TOLD ME I SHOULD TREAT IT LIKE A CONCUSSION AND TAKE ONE WEEK OFF WORK AND JUST BE AT HOME, DON'T LISTEN TO A LOT OF NOISE, MAKE SURE THAT I DON'T HAVE THE LIGHTS ON AND JUST RELAX.

Steve says SO THAT'S THE TREATMENT. JUST BASICALLY DO NOTHING FOR A WEEK?

Calypso says IT WAS HARD, BUT I'M GLAD I DID.

Steve says AND DID YOU FEEL BETTER AFTER THE WEEK WAS OVER?

Calypso says I DID. I WASN'T 100 PERCENT, BUT I WENT BACK TO WORK BECAUSE I WAS LIVING BY PAYCHEQUE AT THAT POINT. I'M GLAD I TOOK A WEEK OFF AND I DID START TO FEEL BETTER.

Steve says OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THAT. HUGO, LET'S GO OVER TO YOU IN SCARBOROUGH. AGAIN, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU MANY OF THESE SIMILAR QUESTIONS. WHEN, WHERE, AND HOW DID YOU SUSTAIN YOUR CONCUSSION?

The caption changes to "Hugo Fung. Living with concussion."

Hugo says I ACTUALLY GOT MY CONCUSSION AT THE BEGINNING OF MY MASTERS, WHICH WAS IN NOVEMBER 2017, AND HOW IT HAPPENED WAS THAT I WAS DRIVING HOME 'CAUSE I WANTED TO GO HOME AND WORK ON A PRESENTATION THAT WAS DUE TWO DAYS FROM THEN, AND AS I WAS DRIVING HOME, THE RIGHT LANE, IT WAS ENDING, AND THERE WAS A CAR THAT WAS IN MY BLIND SPOT THAT ALMOST SIDE-SWIPED ME AND OBVIOUSLY I JUST WANT TO GO HOME AND WORK ON MY PRESENTATION, SO I TRIED TO AVOID THE ACCIDENT BUT I ENDED UP GETTING MYSELF INTO ANOTHER ACCIDENT, SO REAR-ENDED THE CAR IN FRONT AND THE CAR IN FRONT HIT ANOTHER CAR.

Steve says YIKES. OKAY. SO WHAT HAPPENED? DID YOUR HEAD GO INTO THE STEERING WHEEL, OR TELL US WHAT HAPPENED? HOW DID YOU GET THE ACTUAL CONCUSSION.

Hugo says ALL I REMEMBER, MY CAR AT LEAST, ONCE YOU'RE ABOUT TO HIT SOMETHING, IT STARTED BEEPING, THAT'S ALL I REMEMBER, BEEP, BEEP, BEEP. I GOT OUT OUT OF THE CAR AND THREW UP ON THE SIDEWALK. THAT'S A FIRST FOR THAT. I HOPE I NEVER HAVE TO AND NO ONE ELSE HAS TO.

Steve says WHERE DID YOU GET TAKEN AFTER THAT?

Hugo says SO IT WAS INTERESTING. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONCUSSION WAS AT THE TIME. I KEPT GOING ON, WENT TO THE COLLISION CENTRE AND AFTERWARDS WENT HOME. I DIDN'T FEEL WELL SO LUCKILY MY PARTNER CAME AND PICKED ME UP AND WE WENT TO GO EAT BUT I LOST MY APPETITE AND ACTUALLY THREW UP AGAIN AFTER I ATE DINNER. I DID NOT FEEL GOOD.

Steve says HUGO, YOU SOUND LIKE YOU WERE CHARMING COMPANY FOR THAT FIRST 12 HOURS OF TIME AFTER THE CONCUSSION.

Hugo says YEAH. I FELT ALONE. I COULDN'T ORGANIZE MY THOUGHTS. IT WAS CRAZY.

Steve says SO AT WHAT POINT DO YOU FINALLY GET YOURSELF TO A DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL?

Hugo says SO IT WASN'T UNTIL I THINK THREE DAYS AFTER BECAUSE THE NEXT DAY I WENT DOWN. I REMEMBER THAT TTC RIDE TO CAMPUS WAS THE WORST OF MY LIFE. JUST LOUD NOISES. LOTS OF LIGHT. TOO MANY PEOPLE. AND I WENT IN AND TOLD MY SUPERVISOR, MY MASTERS SUPERVISOR THAT I WASN'T FEELING WELL, I DON'T THINK I SHOULD DO MY PRESENTATION AND TOLD HIM ABOUT THE CAR ACCIDENT. AND HE WAS LIKE I THINK YOU HAVE A CONCUSSION. YOU SHOULD PROBABLY GET THAT CHECKED OUT. LUCKILY I'M PART OF THE FACULTY OF KINESIOLOGY. OUR LAB IS RIGHT BESIDE OUR SPORTS MEDICINE CLINIC. I WENT THERE AND TALKED TO I GUESS THE SECRETARY AND SHE KIND OF TOLD ME THIS IS THE PROCEDURE YOU SHOULD GO TO, GO TO THE E.R., GET IT CHECKED OUT, AND ALSO GO CONSULT YOUR FAMILY DOCTOR. WE HAVE A CONCUSSION DOCTOR HERE. YOU CAN CHECK THEM OUT TOO. IT WASN'T UNTIL I MET WITH ONE OF THEM THAT I UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING.

Steve says I DON'T WANT YOU TO INFER THAT THIS QUESTION IS BEING CRITICAL BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU WAITED THREE DAYS BEFORE YOU GOT ANY TREATMENT OR ATTENTION? WHY WOULD YOU WAIT SO LONG?

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Hugo says 'CAUSE, YOU KNOW, BEING A TYPE A PERSON IN MY MASTERS, I JUST WANTED TO GET MY WORK DONE. I HAD A LOT OF COMMITMENTS AND THINGS. SO JUST FOCUSED ON THAT. I'M LIKE MY HEALTH CAN WAIT. I ALWAYS HEAR IT MIGHT GO AWAY SO MAYBE IT'S NOTHING BIG. AND IT WASN'T UNTIL I GUESS THE SYMPTOMS WERE EXACERBATED THAT I REALIZED WHAT A BAD STATE I WAS IN.

Steve says LET ME GO BACK TO SWAPNA NOW AT THIS POINT AND THAT IS, AGAIN, WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT CAR ACCIDENTS, CONCUSSIONS DON'T NECESSARILY FIRST COME TO MIND. CUTS, SCRAPES, BROKEN BONES, ET CETERA. WHAT IS IT ABOUT CONCUSSIONS THAT WE DON'T APPARENTLY SEEM TO WANT TO EITHER RECOGNIZE OR ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE'VE SUSTAINED ONE?

Swapna says RIGHT. WELL, I THINK A LOT OF THAT IS TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, YOU REALLY WANT TO CARRY ON WITH WHAT YOU'RE DOING. YOU WANT TO FEEL LIKE YOU'RE OKAY. YOU WANT TO FEEL LIKE YOU CAN DO THE ACTIVITY FOR YOUR DAY. I MEAN, I THINK WITH THE STORIES OF CALYPSO AND HUGO WE CAN SEE THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY, VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT WHAT THEY DO AND THEY WANT TO CONTINUE THAT. AND DENIAL IS SOMETHING THAT DOES HAPPEN. AND I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY THE AWARENESS AND THE RECOGNITION IS VERY IMPORTANT SO THAT AS SOON AS SOMETHING LIKE THAT DOES OCCUR, YOU CAN THINK, OH, MY GOODNESS, THAT COULD HAVE BEEN A CONCUSSION BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT A CONCUSSION LOOKS LIKE AND I KNOW WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE OR COULD FEEL LIKE AND RECOGNIZE IT IN YOURSELF AND RECOGNIZE IT IN SOMEONE AROUND YOU WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT DOES HAPPEN.

Sandhya says WHILE KEEPING IN MIND IT'S ALWAYS A VERY INDIVIDUALIZED INJURY. WHAT SOMEONE EXPERIENCES MIGHT NOT BE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE EXPERIENCES. THERE'S A CONSTELLATION OF SYMPTOMS THAT CAN OCCUR.

Swapna says THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER REASONS WHY SOMEONE MIGHT NOT WANT TO RECOGNIZE A CONCUSSION OR REPORT IT. THERE IS A STIGMA AROUND HAVING A BRAIN INJURY. SO THAT IS ANOTHER FACTOR FOR SURE.

Sandhya says AND IN THE WORKPLACE, THERE COULD BE REPRISALS AT WORK, PRESSURE FROM OTHERS OR KIND OF FEELING LIKE THEY'RE WEAKER THAN OTHER PEOPLE OR HAVING THAT SENSE FROM OTHER PEOPLE THEMSELVES. SO THESE ARE ALL POINTS THAT PEOPLE TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN NOT REPORTING.

Steve says WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING ANGLE. CALYPSO, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH YOU ON THAT. HAS THERE AT ANY POINT IN YOUR... I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CALL IT THIS... YOUR POST-CONCUSSION JOURNEY, HAS THERE BEEN ANY POINT AT WHICH YOU THOUGHT TO YOURSELF: I HAVE TO DENY THIS BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE... I DON'T KNOW... DENIED PROMOTIONS OR THOUGHT OF AS LESS THAN STRONG BY COLLEAGUES OR MY BOSS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? HAS THAT BEEN A PART OF IT?

Calypso says NO, NOT AT ALL. MY BOSS AT THE TIME WAS WONDERFUL AND SHE WAS VERY WILLING TO ADJUST WORK FOR ANYONE WHO HAD AN INJURY. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, PART OF MY JOB WAS DRIVING A TRACTOR. AND BECAUSE OF THE NOISE, I JUST FELT LIKE I COULDN'T DO THAT FOR THE NEXT FEW WEEKS. SO SHE WAS FINE WITH THAT. IT WAS MORE JUST THE FACT OF HAVING TO MISS WORK, AND SINCE MY CONCUSSION DIDN'T HAPPEN AT WORK, NOT GETTING ANY COMPENSATION FOR THAT AND FEELING LIKE I DID HAVE THIS PRESSURE TO RETURN TO THE WORKSPACE JUST SO I COULD GET PAID AGAIN.

Steve says GOTCHA. HUGO, HOW ABOUT YOU? WAS THERE ANY ASPECT OF STIGMA ASSOCIATED WITH THIS THAT YOU WORRIED ABOUT?

Hugo says YEAH, I HAD SAY TWO TO THREE PARTS. FIRST MY FAMILY. I COME FROM A TRADITIONAL FAMILY WHERE I GUESS CONCUSSIONS AREN'T A THING. MY DAD WAS LIKE WHY ARE YOU BEING LAZY, STAYING IN A ROOM, LIGHTS OFF, SLEEPING ALL THE TIME. YOU'RE DOING YOUR MASTERS. GET IT DONE. HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THERE'S NO PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS THERE ARE ACTUALLY THINGS GOING ON IN MY HEAD THAT I WASN'T SURE OF. AND THE SECOND PART, I HAVE FRIENDS WHO HAVE HAD CONCUSSIONS BUT OBVIOUSLY THE DURATION VARIES PERSON TO PERSON. THEY'RE LIKE, OH, IT GOES AWAY WITHIN A WEEK. YOU'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT. YOU'RE BEING A SISSY, I THINK. BUT LUCKILY, AGAIN, MY COLLEAGUES AT THE FACULTY OF KINESIOLOGY WERE WELL AWARE AND WELL-VERSED IN CONCUSSIONS SO THEY HELPED ME KIND OF SUPPORT AND MOTIVATE ME THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE PROCESS.

Steve says HUGO, THIS WHOLE AWARENESS THING, THIS IS ALL SOMETHING WE NEED TO WORK ON. PEOPLE ARE NOT BEING MALINGERERS WHEN THEY HAVE HEAD INJURIES, RIGHT?

Hugo says YEAH.

Steve says GOTCHA. NOW, WE HEARD FROM CALYPSO THAT SHE BASICALLY HAD TO GO LIE ON A COUCH, NO LIGHTS, NO NOISE FOR A WEEK, AND AFTER THAT SHE FELT SOMEWHAT BETTER AND ABLE TO RETURN TO HER REGULAR DUTIES. HOW ABOUT FOR YOU? WHAT WAS YOUR TREATMENT?

Hugo says YEAH, SAME THING. BASICALLY NO LIGHTS, NO TV, NO CELL PHONE, YOU KNOW, LOTS OF SLEEP. BUT I'M NOT GONNA LIE. I BROKE THOSE RULES. YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT FOR SO LONG. AND NOT TO WANT TO TURN ON THE NEWS AND CHECK OUT "THE AGENDA." ON TVO. SO, YEAH. AND THEY TOLD ME NOT TO DO ANY EXERCISE TO, YOU KNOW, TRY TO MAINTAIN... TRY NOT TO AGGRAVATE THE SYMPTOMS, BUT ACTUALLY, IT WASN'T UNTIL I TOOK PART IN THE PROGRAM AT U OF T WHERE I GOT TO KNOW SANDHYA BETTER THAT I REALIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF ACTUALLY DOING EXERCISE, ALTHOUGH NOT AT SUCH A HIGH INTENSITY TO AGGRAVATE YOUR SYMPTOMS AND IN THE EARLY STAGES TO HELP FEED THE RECOVERY PROCESS.

Steve says WELL, WATCHING "THE AGENDA" I GUESS SEEMS LIKE A VERY REASONABLE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE OF NO TELEVISION, NO ACTIVITIES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. BUT BEYOND THAT, I MEAN, HUGO, DID YOU NOT KNOW THAT EVERY TIME YOU PLAYED A VIDEO GAME OR TURNED ON THE NEWS OR SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE SETTING BACK YOUR RECOVERY?

Hugo says YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT IT WAS WORSE... AGAIN, I WAS UNAWARE OF THE WHOLE CONCUSSION THING. I WAS LIKE IT WON'T HURT THAT MUCH OR IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A LASTING EFFECT. AND TWO DAYS LATER, EVERYTHING HITS YOU LIKE A WALL.

Steve says THE MYLABATHULA TWINS HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR A LONG TIME BUT NOT JUST TO TELEVISION AUDIENCES OR AUDIENCES ON YouTube. THEY HAD A CAPTIVE AUDIENCE TWO YEARS AGO. WE'RE GOING TO SHOW A CLIP OF THAT RIGHT NOW. SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?

A clip plays on screen with the caption "April 1, 2019."
In the clip, Sandhya speaks at an event.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Subcommittee on Sports-Related Concussions in Canada of the Standing Committee on Health."

She says THE EFFECTS OF A CONCUSSION ARE NOT ALWAYS OBSERVABLE TO AN ONLOOKER SO IT'S VERY MUCH OF AN INVISIBLE INJURY TOO. WE KNOW THAT OUR BRAINS ARE QUITE FRAGILE AND HERE WE HAVE A 3-D PRINTED MODEL OF A BRAIN JUST TO KIND OF SHOW THAT, AND WE KNOW THAT THE CONSISTENCY OF THE BRAIN, EVEN MORE SO THAN IN THIS MODEL IS ACTUALLY QUITE LIKE THAT OF JELLO. IT EMPHASIZES THE NEED TO PROTECT IT.

The clip ends.

Steve says SWAPNA, WHAT WERE YOU TWO DOING THERE TESTIFYING AT A SUB COMMITTEE OF PARLIAMENT ON POLITICAL?

The caption changes to "The steam sisters go to parliament."

Swapna says OUR JOURNEY STARTED TEN YEARS AGO. WE SPOKE ABOUT JELLO IN THAT EXAMPLE. WE HAVE THAT BRAIN RIGHT HERE.

She points at a red Jell-O brain sitting between both sisters.

Steve says SAME ONE?

Swapna says IF ONLY. NO, WE MADE A NEW ONE. WE HAVE A FREEZER FULL OF BRAINS, JELLO BRAINS, JUST IN CASE WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT AWARENESS.

Steve says IT SOUNDS A LITTLE CONFUSING AND BIZARRE FOR A SECOND THERE, SO THANKS FOR CLARIFYING.

Swapna says YEAH, WE DO HAVE A WHOLE JOURNEY THAT STARTED ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO AND WE STARTED BY, YOU KNOW, OUR OWN INTEREST IN HOCKEY BUT WE VERY QUICKLY REALIZED THAT CONCUSSIONS HAPPEN IN ALL SORTS OF ARENAS OF LIFE, INCLUDING IN THE WORKPLACE AND ON THE ROAD. AND THAT REALLY LED TO A PRIVATE MEMBER'S BILL THAT WE WERE ABLE TO DEVELOP AND OUR MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT AT THE TIME, DR. KIRSTI DUNCAN, AND IT HAD ITS FIRST READING. SINCE THEN WE'VE DONE A LOT OF ADVOCACY AND POLICY WORK AND RESEARCH ON OUR OWN, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DO FOR OUR OWN RESEARCH, AND THAT TOOK US A LITTLE FARTHER.

Sandhya says YEAH, SO WHAT WE WERE ASKING FOR WAS A NATIONAL CONCUSSION AWARENESS WEEK, A PAN-CANADIAN STRATEGY TO ADDRESS PREVENTION, MANAGEMENT, DIAGNOSIS, AWARENESS IN PARTICULAR, ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN ALL PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES, AS WELL AS A CENTRE OF EXCELLENCE FOR CONCUSSION RESEARCH BUT ALSO CONTINUING EVALUATION ON ANY ONGOING POLICY AND AN EXPERT ADVISORY BOARD TO HELP MAKE SURE THAT ANY POLICY THAT WAS IN PLACE COULD CONTINUE TO EVOLVE WITH EVOLVING RESEARCH WHICH IS A VERY EVOLVING FIELD AND ALL JOKES ASIDE, HAVING A TOOL LIKE A JELLO BRAIN IS QUITE USEFUL TO HELP INCREASE AWARENESS, BECAUSE IT REALLY GIVES YOU THE SENSE OF HOW FRAGILE OUR BRAINS ARE AND WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO PROTECT THEM. AND ONE MORE THING I WANTED TO ADD THERE IS IT'S VERY INTERESTING ABOUT THE APPROACHES PEOPLE TAKE IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT BECAUSE REST, COMPLETE REST, SORT OF USED TO BE THE GOLD STANDARD BUT THAT'S ACTUALLY GONE NOW. WHAT WE ACTUALLY ADVISE IS TO DO REST IN THE PERIOD JUST AFTER YOUR INJURY, BUT THEN YOU WANT TO HAVE THAT, AS HUGO WAS MENTIONING, GRADUAL RETURN TO ACTIVITY AND ADDING MORE EXERCISE BACK IN AS LONG AS YOUR SYMPTOMS ARE TOLERABLE.

Swapna says PRESCRIBING EXERCISE TO THE POINT YOU AREN'T EXACERBATING SYMPTOMS. WE'VE MOVED ON IN THE MANAGEMENT OF CONCUSSION.

Sandhya says IMPROVED MOOD, CEREBRAL BLOOD FLOW AND ALSO IMPROVE NEUROPLASTICITY.

Swapna says THESE ARE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT IN PARLIAMENT IN 2019 WHETHER WE WERE SPEAKING TO A COMMITTEE TALKING ABOUT CONCUSSIONS.

Steve says I HAVE ONE DUMB FOLLOW-UP QUESTION AND ONE I HOPE MORE INTELLIGENT FOLLOW-UP QUESTION. THE DUMB IS: HOW DO YOU MAKE A JELLO BRAIN?

Swapna says MAGIC. IT'S JELLO, WATER, AND A BIT OF EVAPORATED MILK.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE A SPECIAL MOULD TO MAKE IT IN?

Swapna says TEN HOURS CARVING IT... NO, WE DO HAVE A MOULD.

Steve says I TOLD YOU. THAT WAS THE DUMB QUESTION. NOW, HERE I HOPE IS A BETTER QUESTION, WHICH IS: ALL RIGHT. YOU HAD A LENGTHY LIST OF THINGS THAT YOU WANTED TO GET OUT OF YOUR APPEARANCE ON PARLIAMENT HILL, A NATIONAL CONCUSSION AWARENESS WEEK AND SO ON. HOW MUCH OF THAT CHECKLIST... SANDHYA, YOU GO FIRST... HOW MUCH OF THAT CHECKLIST DID YOU ACTUALLY GET THROUGH?

Sandhya says SO AFTER WE TESTIFIED ON APRIL FOOL'S DAY IN 2019 TO GOVERNMENT, THEY HAD A SUB COMMITTEE ON SPORTS RELATED CONCUSSIONS IN CANADA AS PART OF A STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH. THEY SPOKE TO A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE GIVING TESTIMONY. WE HAD RESEARCHERS, ADVOCATES SUCH AS OURSELVES AND IN THE END THEY CREATED A REPORT, INCLUDED IN THAT REPORT WOULD BE THE NATIONAL CONCUSSION AWARENESS WEEK AND THERE ARE PIECES IN THERE THAT ARE STILL CONTINUING TO MOVE BUT AFTER THE PANDEMIC STARTED I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF A STOPPER ON THAT.

Swapna says IT PUT A DAMPER ON A LOT OF THINGS.

Steve says SO FAIR TO SAY YOU DIDN'T GET THROUGH AS MUCH AS... PARLIAMENT DIDN'T PICK UP AS MUCH OF THE AGENDA AS YOU HOPED THEY WOULD? IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Sandhya says NOT AS MUCH OF THE AGENDA BUT WE'RE WORKING ON THAT AND MOVING IT FORWARD. THINGS ARE SLOWER DURING THE PANDEMIC BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WILL CONTINUE.

Swapna says I DO THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF PROGRESS FROM HOW MUCH EFFORT IT TOOK TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION EARLIER ON IN THAT DECADE, FROM 2010 TO 2014, TO THE AUDIENCE THAT WAS LISTENING TO US AND GIVING US THAT TIME TO SPEAK OUR PIECE ABOUT CONCUSSIONS IN ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT... AWARENESS PREVENTION MANAGEMENT AND SO ON. IN 2019, I THINK WE HAVE SEEN QUITE A BIT OF PROGRESS BUT WE DO NEED TO CONTINUE TO CARRY THAT CONVERSATION FORWARD AND TRANSLATE THAT CONVERSATION INTO TANGIBLE ACTIONS SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE SUSTAINED EFFORTS THROUGH AND AFTER WE DEAL WITH THE PANDEMIC.

Sandhya says THE FACT THAT IT WAS DISCUSSED IN PARLIAMENT WAS A PRETTY BIG DEAL BECAUSE THAT MEANS THAT THAT IS PUTTING IMPORTANCE ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS IMPORTANT AS WELL.

Steve says LET ME CHECK IN WITH OUR TWO CONCUSSION PATIENTS. CALYPSO, TELL US, HAVE YOU HAD TO THIS DAY ANY LINGERING AFTER-EFFECTS FROM THE CONCUSSION?

Calypso says NO. I WAS VERY LUCKY. I WOULD SAY BECAUSE I TOOK THE WEEK OF REST, AFTER ABOUT A MONTH, MY SYMPTOMS WERE ALL GONE AND I WAS BACK TO NORMAL.

Steve says AND YOU'RE 100 PERCENT TODAY?

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Calypso says I'M 100 PERCENT TODAY.

Steve says BUT A LOT MORE CAREFUL AROUND HORSES, I BET?

Calypso says ESPECIALLY MINIATURE HORSES. THEY'RE VERY STUBBORN.

Steve says ESPECIALLY MINIATURES. OKAY. HUGO, HOW ABOUT FOR YOU? ARE YOU CONCUSSION SYMPTOM-FREE NOW?

Hugo says NO, UNFORTUNATELY NOT. I'M STILL WORKING WITH MY HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS TO TRY TO COPE WITH THESE SYMPTOMS AND TRY TO MITIGATE THEM AND JUST MANAGEMENT. IT'S ALL ABOUT SYMPTOM MANAGEMENT AT THIS POINT.

Steve says WHAT ARE YOU STILL FEELING?

Hugo says A LOT OF STUFF. SO I'M STILL HAVING ISSUES, I GUESS, CONVEYING MY THOUGHTS INTO WORDS AND WRITING, SO THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL I GUESS FOR ME SINCE I'M DOING MY Ph.D. NOW. AND ALSO I HAVE ISSUES WITH, I GUESS... IT'S ALMOST LIKE MIGRAINE-LIKE SYMPTOMS. ANY TIME I PERFORM ANY INTENSIVE EXERCISES OR STRAIN MYSELF, I TEND TO BURN OUT EASILY IF I WORK ON A TASK FOR TOO LONG. SO I HAVE TO DO A LOT OF MITIGATION STRATEGIES AROUND THAT.

Steve says JUST CONFIRMING: THIS IS THREE YEARS AFTER THE CAR ACCIDENT?

Hugo says YEAH, THREE... I GUESS ALMOST THREE AND A HALF, YEAH. IT'S COMING. BUT I NEVER KNEW IT WOULD LAST THAT LONG AND NOW I UNDERSTAND THE SERIOUSNESS OF CONCUSSION.

Steve says I MEAN, I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH, BUT, I MEAN, IS THIS A FAIRLY DEPRESSING PROSPECT THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH HERE?

Hugo says YEAH, DEFINITELY. AND I ALWAYS THINK BACK TO HOW, YOU KNOW, I WAS PRE-CONCUSSION AND COMPARE MYSELF BUT WHAT I'VE LEARNED IS YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE EVERYTHING IN STRIDE. IT'S NOT ABOUT LOOKING BACK, IT'S LOOKING FORWARD AND HOW YOU CAN IMPROVE FROM THERE. SO THESE ARE ALL KIND OF... YEAH, JUST LOOKING BACK AND... IT'S ALL ABOUT MOVING FORWARD.

Steve says I GET YOU. WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE HERE. I JUST WANT TO ASK THE STEAM SISTERS ONE LAST QUESTION, AND THAT IS: WE HAVE HAD SOME PROGRESS ON THIS ISSUE. WE HAVE ROWAN'S LAW IN ONTARIO WHICH REALLY OBLIGATES MUCH MORE ATTENTION AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR WHEN THEY'RE PLAYING SPORTS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO MAKE SURE THAT CONCUSSIONS ARE DIAGNOSED AND PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THEM AND THAT PRECAUTIONS ARE TAKEN. SID THE KID, SIDNEY CROSBY, GOT A CONCUSSION TEN YEARS AGO LAST MONTH THAT CERTAINLY PUT A LOT OF ATTENTION ONTO THE ISSUE. I GUESS I WONDER IN OUR LAST MINUTE WHAT ADVICE YOU HAVE FOR PEOPLE WATCHING THIS RIGHT NOW. SWAPNA, WHY DON'T YOU GO FIRST?

Swapna says THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. THANK YOU. I THINK PUTTING MORE STOCK INTO AWARENESS AND RECOGNITION IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT THING. I WOULD SAY THAT PREVENTION IS THE BEST CURE. WE SAY THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT RINGS TRUE WITH CONCUSSIONS. WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SPORTING WORLD, THERE'S LOTS OF THINGS ABOUT PREVENTION THAT WE'VE HEARD ABOUT. BUT THAT DOES APPLY OUTSIDE AS WELL. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE WORKPLACE, THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS TO DO FOR PREVENTION.

Steve says SANDHYA, LAST 20 SECONDS TO YOU.

Sandhya says THANK YOU. SO IN THE WORKPLACE, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU CAN, AVOID THOSE RISK FACTORS, SO CLEARING SPACES, MAKING SURE THERE ARE NOT BIG OBJECTS HIGHER UP, THAT SORT OF THING. BUT ONCE THE CONCUSSION DOES HAPPEN, BECAUSE WE CAN'T PREVENT EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE, IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE AWARENESS WHAT PEOPLE CAN EXPECT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ARE MISSED IS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS, ANXIETY, FRUSTRATION, ISOLATION AND SO ON. SO THAT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THAT'S A THING. SO PEOPLE CAN KNOW TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE A CONCUSSION.

The caption changes to "Producer: Steve Paikin, @spaikin."

Steve says I CAN'T THANK THE FOUR OF YOU ENOUGH FOR COMING ONTO TVO TONIGHT AND REALLY HELPING US BETTER UNDERSTAND THESE ISSUES, SANDHYA AND SWAPNA MYLABATHULA, THE PhD CANDIDATES AT THE U OF T; CALYPSO KENNEY IN MEXICO; HUGO FUNG IN SCARBOROUGH. BEST WISHES EVERYBODY. I NORMALLY SAY STAY SAFE TO EVERYBODY, BUT THAT'S USUALLY A REFERENCE TO COVID. I'M GOING TO SAY STAY SAFE IN TERMS OF WATCHING YOUR HEAD, EVERYBODY. ESPECIALLY TO YOU, HUGO. WE WISH YOU WELL IN TERMS OF YOUR CONTINUED RECOVERY.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Hugo says THANK YOU.

Steve says TAKE CARE, EVERYBODY.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

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