Transcript: Has Zoom Widened the Gender Gap? | Feb 03, 2021

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length straight brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a black blazer over a green shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Has Zoom widened the gender gap? Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says BEFORE THIS PANDEMIC, CO-WORKERS RARELY SAW EACH OTHER'S HOMES ON A REGULAR BASIS. EVEN SOCIALLY, MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE PEOPLE OVER DAILY. BUT IN THIS COVID ERA, WHERE SO MUCH OF LIFE HAS MOVED ONLINE... VIDEOCONFERENCING HAS CHANGED THAT ALMOST OVERNIGHT. IT'S MEANT DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE, AND IT TURNS OUT, SEEMS TO REVEAL SOME DIFFERENCES IN HOW MEN AND WOMEN PRESENT THEMSELVES. WITH US NOW TO EXPLORE THAT: IN LONDON, ONTARIO, MY HOME TOWN: SHAUNA BURKE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AND FACULTY SCHOLAR IN THE SCHOOL OF HEALTH STUDIES AT WESTERN UNIVERSITY...

Shauna is in her thirties, with long wavy auburn hair. She's wearing a yellow sweater and two golden pendant necklaces.

Nam continues AND TREENA ORCHARD, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AND UNDERGRADUATE CHAIR, ALSO AT WESTERN'S SCHOOL OF HEALTH STUDIES...

Treena is in her thirties, with chin-length red hair. She's wearing a printed white shirt and a green sweater vest.

Nam continues AND IN ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY: KRISTOPHER ALEXANDER, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR AT RYERSON UNIVERSITY'S RTA SCHOOL OF MEDIA...

Kristopher is in his thirties, clean-shaven, with short-cropped black hair. He's wearing

Nam continues WELCOME TO YOU ALL. SO NICE TO HAVE YOU ALL HERE.

Kristopher says THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

Nam says CAN I SAY, SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ZOOM, ALL YOUR BACKGROUNDS ARE PERFECTION.

[LAUGHTER]

Nam says YOU KNOW, ALTHOUGH ZOOM... AND I LOOKED THIS UP, ACTUALLY... ZOOM WAS CREATED BACK IN 2011, BUT MOST OF US HADN'T HEARD OF IT UNTIL THIS PAST YEAR AND IT'S BECOME AN INTEGRAL PART OF OUR DAILY LIVES. I WANTED TO GET A SENSE FROM ALL OF YOU: WHAT DO YOU THINK HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE BENEFITS OF CONNECTING VIA VIDEO WHILE WE NAVIGATE THE PANDEMIC? SHAUNA, I'LL START WITH YOU.

The caption changes to "Shauna Burke. Western University."
Then, it changes again to "The need for connectivity."

Shauna says SURE. AND, NAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US TODAY FOR THIS REALLY, I THINK, INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATION. FIRST OF ALL, I'LL START WITH JUST CONNECTEDNESS. CONNECTEDNESS HAS ALWAYS BEEN ESSENTIAL TO BEING HUMAN AND OF COURSE AS HUMANS WE HAVE THIS FUNDAMENTAL NEED AND DESIRE TO INTERACT AND TO FORM MEANINGFUL RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE, AND OF COURSE WITH THE PANDEMIC AND THE NECESSARY PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES THAT WE ARE FOLLOWING AND PRACTISING, IT'S REALLY BEEN DIFFICULT TO SHARE AND ENJOY THESE MEANINGFUL IN-PERSON INTERACTIONS. SO WHILE I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE THAT IN-PERSON CONNECTIONS ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO REPLACE OR TO EVEN REPLICATE WITH TECHNOLOGY, ONLINE PLATFORMS I THINK, LIKE ZOOM, HAVE REALLY RESTORED THIS KIND OF SENSE OF TOGETHERNESS, AND MANY OF US HAVE BEEN NAVIGATING OUR LIVES ONLINE FOR CLOSE TO A YEAR NOW, AND AT LEAST FOR TREENA AND I, A BIG PART OF THAT IN OUR WORKING ENVIRONMENT HAS BEEN ZOOM, WHICH LED TO OUR OBSERVATIONS IN THE ARTICLE THAT WE CO-AUTHORED.

Nam says WE'RE GOING TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT ARTICLE. AND IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE OR TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S ALMOST A YEAR. KRISTOPHER, I WANT TO ASK YOU THAT SAME QUESTION.

The caption changes to "Kristopher Alexander. Ryerson University."

Kristopher says I HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON IT AND I DO AGREE WITH SHAUNA, THE ARTICLE IS BRILLIANT... ALSO, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE. IT IS AN HONOUR TO BE HERE. I THINK WHAT IT HAS DONE FOR SOME PEOPLE, INCLUDING MYSELF, IT ALLOWED ME TO CIRCUMVENT PARTICULAR... GET INTO DIFFERENT ROOMS, HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE. SET UP LIGHTING AND ALL THESE THINGS, COLOUR CORRECTION HAS AFFORDED ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE PEOPLE SAY, OH, LET'S GET KRIS IN HERE. THAT'S ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF THE ZOOM CULTURE.

Nam says I KNOW FOR US TOO AS A PRODUCTION TEAM, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO GET PEOPLE THAT WE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GET UNLESS THEY WERE IN TOWN. SO IT'S ALSO BEEN A BENEFIT FOR US. TREENA, I WANT TO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION.

The caption changes to "Treena Orchard. Western University."

Treena says SURE. AND I THINK I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE THAT THE OTHER PANELISTS HAVE SAID AND I THINK THAT ZOOM HAS ALSO ENABLED US TO CONTINUE THE FLOW OF REGULAR LIFE. IT'S ENABLED OUR EVERYDAY WORK INTERACTIONS, MEETINGS, STUDENT ENGAGEMENTS, CLASSROOM ACTIVITIES AND ALL OF THAT TO CONTINUE. IT'S ALL DIFFERENT IN THE NEW SORT OF COVID SETTING, BUT ZOOM HAS ENABLED US TO CARRY OUT THESE ACTIVITIES IN A SIMILAR WAY THAT WE DID IN THE PAST. AND SO IT KIND OF MAKES THIS PRECARIOUS SITUATION FEEL A LITTLE BIT MORE NORMAL.

Nam says AND, TREENA, I WANT TO ASK YOU THE NEXT QUESTION. YOU KNOW, STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT WOMEN HAVE BEEN DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED DURING THE PANDEMIC FROM JOB LOSSES, JUGGLING WORKING FROM HOME, OR HELPING THEIR KIDS WITH ONLINE LEARNING, ALTHOUGH IN MY HOUSEHOLD, MY HUSBAND IS THE PATIENT ONE, SO HE DOES THE BULK OF THAT BECAUSE I AM NOT PATIENT. YOU KNOW, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT... WHEN WE LOOK AT THAT, WHAT IMPACT HAS ZOOM HAD ON WOMEN GETTING THEIR VOICES HEARD? HAS IT BEEN A LEVELER?

The caption changes to "Treena Orchard, @stickysexysad."

Treena says THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION. I JUST WANT TO MAKE A BIT OF A CAVEAT STATEMENT AT THE OUTSET HERE, THAT THE OBSERVATIONS THAT ARE BASED ON... THAT WE SPOKE ABOUT IN THE ARTICLE ARE JUST SORT OF GENERAL OBSERVATIONS, AND WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT ALL WOMEN DO ONE THING OR ALL MEN DO ANOTHER THING. AND I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO JUST SORT OF SAY AT THE OUTSET. BUT I THINK DEFINITELY, LOOKING AT THE LIVES OF A LOT OF MY COLLEAGUES, ESPECIALLY THE WOMEN, THEY ARE TYPICALLY THE ONES WHO REMAINED AT HOME WITH THE CHILDREN MORE OFTEN, AND SO ZOOM HAS REALLY... I THINK THERE'S A FEAR THAT IT HAS DONE A REAL... IT'S BEEN AN INJUSTICE FOR A LOT OF WOMEN BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE IT'S REALLY SET THEM BACK AND SORT OF FIRMLY PLACED THEM IN THE DOMESTIC SPHERE MORE SO THAN DOMESTIC AS WELL AS OCCUPATIONAL.

Nam says JUST TO BUILD ON THAT, SHAUNA, WHAT HAS... WHAT HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE I GUESS DISADVANTAGES TO THIS I GUESS ZOOM CULTURE THAT WE'RE LIVING IN RIGHT NOW?

The caption changes to "Shauna Burke, @ShaunaMBurke."

Shauna says WELL, I THINK WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT ZOOM FATIGUE, IS ONE, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A RECENT ARTICLE IN THE NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC ABOUT ZOOM FATIGUE. IT'S VERY DIFFERENT. AND AS NOTED IN THAT ARTICLE, IT CAN BE HARD ON THE BRAIN. WE'RE LOOKING AT THESE BRADY BUNCH BOXES OF PEOPLE, AND THOSE NORMAL SORT OF NON-VERBAL, MORE SUBTLE CUES THAT WE TYPICALLY RELY ON AND GATHER A LOT OF INFORMATION FROM IN OUR INTERACTIONS TO FEEL CONNECTED ARE GONE, AND SO WE'RE REALLY RELYING ON WORDS AND EYE CONTACT, IF WE CAN FIND PEOPLE'S EYES, AND THAT'S REALLY DIFFICULT, AND ALSO REALLY DRAINING.

Nam says DO YOU THINK THAT... BECAUSE I KNOW WHEN WE HAVE PITCH MEETINGS IN THE BEFORE TIMES, WE WOULD ALL BE SITTING AT ONE TABLE AND PEOPLE ARE DOING MULTIPLE THINGS BECAUSE WE DO LIVE IN A CULTURE WHERE YOU HAVE TO MULTITASK TO GET EVERYTHING DONE. DO YOU THINK THAT EMPLOYERS NEED TO BE A BIT MORE GENEROUS TO THEIR EMPLOYEES WHEN IT COMES TO, LIKE, MAYBE HAVE THE CAMERA ON, OR IF YOU DO HAVE YOUR CAMERA ON AND YOU'RE ON YOUR PHONE CHECKING SOMETHING ON YOUR PHONE?

Shauna says I THINK THAT'S SUCH AN EXCELLENT QUESTION AND A REALLY IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION. I KNOW AS AN INSTRUCTOR AT THE UNIVERSITY AND TEACHING LARGE CLASSES, I MEAN, I NEVER REQUIRE MY STUDENTS TO HAVE THEIR CAMERA ON, AND I DO THAT VERY PURPOSEFULLY. I THINK THE PANDEMIC IS DIFFICULT FOR SO MANY REASONS ON SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, AND WE DON'T KNOW THE CHALLENGES NECESSARILY THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING AND FACING, AND SO THERE COULD BE VERY VALID REASONS WHY PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO OR CAN'T HAVE THEIR CAMERAS ON, AND SO I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION FOR PEOPLE AS WELL.

Nam says AND, KRISTOPHER, MY KIDS ARE 9 AND 7, I THINK... YES, THEY ARE. MY SON JUST TURNED 10. AND I KNOW, I CAN OVERHEAR THEIR TEACHERS EXPLAINING DIFFERENT THINGS TO THEM WHICH SOMETIMES FEELS AWKWARD. IT FEELS LIKE I'M KIND OF SPYING ON THEM. BUT MY KIDS NEED ME TO BE THERE. AND I OFTEN HEAR THEIR TEACHERS TELLING THEM TO TURN ON MUTE OR TURN OFF THE CAMERA. YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE TEACHING MUCH OLDER STUDENTS. WHAT'S YOUR APPROACH TO MEETING... I MEAN TO TEACHING OR EVEN MEETING OVER VIDEO?

The caption changes to "Kristopher Akexander, @Videogamesprof."

Kristopher says WELL, THE APPROACH I TAKE, I WILL ADMIT, IT'S VERY VIDEO GAME CENTRIC. I AM A TWITCH TRAINER AND YOUTUBE CONTENT TRAINER. IT FORCES THE ABILITY OF INTERACTIVITY OF THE PRESENTER AND THE AUDIENCE. SO SOME OF THE THINGS I DO IN THE CLASSROOM IS I HAVE A LONG ON SCREEN TEXT CHAT. I SEE THEM AND I REACT TO THEM. SO IT REALLY BOILS DOWN TO INTERACTIVITY AND ENGAGEMENT. THOSE ARE ONE OF THE WAYS THAT I SORT OF FACILITATE IN THE CLASSROOM. BUT A LOT OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO ZOOM FATIGUE, MY UNDERSTANDING IS A LOT TO DO WITH DOPAMINE AND REALLY WHAT WE'RE ACCUSTOMED TO SEEING ON THE INTERNET. IT USUALLY BOILS DOWN TO WHAT WE'RE USED TO SEEING BEYOND THE SCREEN AND THEN WHAT'S GOING ON, RIGHT? EVERYBODY IS BUSY, EVERYBODY HAS A LOT ON THEIR PLATE. BEING ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH AN AUDIENCE, WHICH IS KIND OF WHAT IT'S BEEN PARTICULARLY FOR ME IN THE CLASSROOM AND I HAVE A SLIGHT ADVANTAGE, I'M TALKING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES AND E-SPORTS.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Nam says SO YOU HAVE THEIR ATTENTION ALREADY.

Kristopher says EXACTLY. I HAVE THEIR ATTENTION ALREADY.

[LAUGHTER]

Nam says ARE THERE ANY BENEFITS FOR YOU AS THE TEACHER TEACHING OVER ZOOM?

Kristopher says FOR ME, ABSOLUTELY. I'M ABLE TO REACH OUT TO A WIDER AUDIENCE. I'M ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH STUDENTS ON PLATFORMS LIKE DISCORD WHICH MANY GAMERS ARE ALREADY USED TO AND A PART OF. WE WILL RUN CLASS THROUGH DISCORD AND THEY CAN ACCESS THEIR ASSIGNMENTS AND I'M ABLE TO PIN POSTINGS TO THE GROUP. FOR ME IT'S ACTUALLY WIDENED MY PRACTICE I FEEL IN A BENEFICIAL WAY. THAT'S NOT THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY. BUT IN MY PARTICULAR LANE WITH REGARD TO VIDEO GAMES AND THE CULTURE SURROUNDING IT, WE ARE AN ONLINE ENGAGING BIDIRECTIONAL CULTURE IN MANY SITUATIONS.

Nam says TREENA, THE ARTICLE YOU WROTE WITH SHAUNA FOR THE CONVERSATION LOOKED AT SOME WAYS THAT MEN AND WOMEN APPROACH APPEARING ON CAMERA. ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU MADE IS THAT WOMEN ARE MORE USED TO BEING LOOKED AT. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

The caption changes to "Branding professionalism."

Treena says I THINK IT'S A FAIRLY WELL-KNOWN FACT IN OUR PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY, MEN AND WOMEN ARE VIEWED IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS. WOMEN ARE SEXUALIZED, THEY'RE UNDERSTOOD IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS IN TERMS OF THEIR PHYSICAL APPEARANCE. PHYSICAL APPEARANCE MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS, DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN HOW YOU LOOK AND YOUR SOCIAL STATUS, PERHAPS YOUR OCCUPATIONAL PROSPECTS, THINGS LIKE THAT. AND ONE OF THE COMMENTS THAT WE'VE HEARD FROM SOME OF OUR MALE COLLEAGUES AFTER ZOOM MEETINGS IS THAT, NOT ONLY IS THERE THE FATIGUE BUT THAT PART OF THE FATIGUE IS ABOUT NEEDING TO FEEL SORT OF GUARDED AGAINST BEING LOOKED AT ALL THE TIME BY PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE NOT USED TO LOOKING AT THEM. AND IN MANY WAYS WOMEN ARE QUITE USED TO BEING LOOKED AT ON A REGULAR BASIS. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE ENJOY IT, BUT IT IS PART OF OUR DOMINANT CULTURE. SO IN THAT WAY IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT FOR WOMEN THAN MEN.

Nam says AT THE BEGINNING YOU SAID THAT THE RESEARCH THAT YOU'RE DOING HAS BEEN GENERAL SO FAR. BUT I JUST WANTED TO ASK: WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE NON-BINARY? WHERE DO THEY FIT INTO THIS CONVERSATION?

Treena says THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT BECAUSE THERE'S VERY LITTLE WRITTEN ABOUT ZOOM AND GENDER IN GERENAL. WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY OUR ARTICLE HAS RECEIVED A LOT OF INTERESTING ATTENTION. THERE'S A LOT OF ARTICLES ABOUT ZOOM AND FATIGUE BUT NOT SO MUCH ABOUT HOW WE EXPERIENCE IT ACROSS THE GENDER SPECTRUM. AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH MY EARLIER COMMENT ABOUT NOT WANTING TO APPEAR AS THOUGH WE THINK THAT WOMEN ALL DO ONE THING AND MEN ALL DO ANOTHER THING, WE ALSO WANT TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE ARTICLE THAT WE WROTE IS FAIRLY HETERONORMATIVE. AND THERE'S A WEALTH OF OTHER EXPERIENCES AND DIFFERENT ASPECTS THAT I THINK WOULD BE REALLY IMPORTANT TO EXPLORE GOING FORWARD.

Nam says UM, I'VE MENTIONED THE ARTICLE A COUPLE TIMES BUT I'D LIKE TO READ A PASSAGE FROM THAT ARTICLE THAT YOU AND SHAUNA WROTE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Zoom personas." The quote reads "During the pandemic, the spatial distinctions between office and home are eroding because many of us now work in the places where we live. This transition may be especially challenging for men, who mostly prefer clear definitions between office and domestic spaces. In light of this, one suggestion is that men may use specialty Zoom backgrounds as a creative way to exact a sense of control over their new work environments that no longer reflect the masculine design they are used to."
Quoted from Shauna Burke and Treena Orchard, The Conversation. December 1, 2020.

Nam says AGAIN, AT THE RISK OF GENERALIZING, WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO, BUT, KRISTOPHER, SINCE YOU ARE (LAUGHING) THE ONLY MAN ON THE PANEL, IN YOUR VIEW, WHY MIGHT MEN CHANGE THEIR BACKGROUNDS MORE THAN WOMEN?

Kristopher says I DON'T REALLY KNOW MUCH ABOUT THAT AT ALL. I JUST KNOW FOR MYSELF, AND I DID READ THE ARTICLE, IT'S VERY INTERESTING. ONE THING WITH REGARD TO THE LAST POINT REGARDING BEING USED TO BEING LOOKED AT. THERE ARE SOME... EVEN IN MY SITUATION WHO AREN'T AFFORDED THE ABILITY TO NOT THINK ABOUT PEOPLE LOOKING AT THEM. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WAY THAT I PRESENT MYSELF ON ZOOM IS THE WAY THAT I IN OFTEN CASES MUST PRESENT MYSELF IN THE WORKFORCE, THAT IS BUTTONED UP, TUCKED IN. YES, I DO MY HAIR. A LITTLE BABY POWDER TO REFLECT SHINE. ALL THESE THINGS. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE HAD TO DO TO NAVIGATE THE WORKING WORLD AND THAT'S AN INTERESTING ELEMENT OF THE STUDY ITSELF THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN JUST COMMENTING ON. THE OTHER THING, THIS BACKGROUND IN THE BACK HERE, THOSE ARE CEDAR BOARDS THAT A BUDDY OF MINE, HIS CONSULTANT... HE TAUGHT ME HOW TO PUT UP CEDAR BOARDS BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN IT. AS A DISCLAIMER, I'M TRAINED IN BROADCAST TELEVISION SO I'M INTERESTED IN PUTTING PLANTS IN THE BACKGROUND, SETTING UP SCENES AND ALL OF THIS. GOING BACK TO ZOOM AS A TOOL OF EMPOWERMENT, THERE'S A LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE SEE. WE SHOULD START TO EXPLORE THE DIALOGUE OF HOW WE CAN IN SOME INSTANCES CONTROL WHAT PEOPLE SEE. SO THESE BOARDS BACK HERE THEY'RE NOT FAKE, I PLACED THEM UP WITH A BUDDY OF MINE, HE DID MOST OF THE WORK BECAUSE HE WAS TEACHING ME ABOUT IT. BUT IT SMELLS LIKE A SAUNA. PART OF THAT WAS TO TRY AND ESTABLISH WHAT I FEEL IS OUR CAMERA IS NOW A WINDOW INTO OPPORTUNITY AND POSSIBILITY BASED ON OUR ABILITY TO SORT OF IN SOME WAYS SHAPE THE GATES, THAT WAS ALSO DISCUSSED IN THE ARTICLE. SO I DON'T CHANGE MY BACKGROUND VERY MUCH UNLESS I'M IN THE CLASSROOM AND I'M SWITCHING TO A CONCEPT, FOR EXAMPLE, I'M PUTTING TOGETHER A PITCH THAT TEACHES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS HOW TO CODE AND I HAVE A CODE-BASED BACKGROUND THAT I BRING UP CONTEXTUALLY TO SHOW STATISTICS ABOUT CODING, I'M WORKING ON IT IN FRENCH AS WELL, AND I'M USING THE BACKGROUNDS TO TRANSPORT OUR VIEWERS INTO WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO LEARN. IN MY CASE IT'S OFTEN DIFFERENT THINGS WITH CODING AS WELL AS VIDEO GAMES AND E-SPORTS.

Nam says I'M OBSESSED WITH DESIGN, AND I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS SUCH A VOYEUR, I THINK THAT'S WHAT I'D CALL MYSELF. BUT I REALLY ENJOY SEEING PEOPLE'S BACKGROUNDS AND I GUESS MAYBE IT SHOWS ME... I FEEL MAYBE LIKE I KNOW THEM A LITTLE BIT BETTER BY SEEING THEIR BACKGROUNDS, BUT SHAUNA, I WANTED TO ASK YOU THAT QUESTION THEN, YOU KNOW: WHY MIGHT MEN CHANGE THEIR BACKGROUNDS MORE THAN WOMEN?

Shauna says WELL, I THINK ONE THING I WILL MENTION GOING BACK TO THE CONNECTEDNESS PIECE ABOUT THE BACKGROUND AND, NAM, SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID AS WELL, AND I THINK ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES WITH, YOU KNOW, BEING INTERESTED IN PEOPLE'S BACKGROUNDS, ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, FOR CO-WORKERS THAT MAYBE YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IN PERSON IN A YEAR, IS THAT WE DO, WE KIND OF LEARN ABOUT THEM, RIGHT? WE GET TO SEE THEM IN THEIR REAL KIND OF UNEDITED, SOMETIMES STAGED HOMES, YOU KNOW, BUT WE'RE SEEING THAT KIND OF HUMAN SIDE OF PEOPLE AND KIND OF A... YOU KNOW, IN THEIR OWN HOMES. AND SOMETIMES I FEEL WE'RE LEARNING ABOUT CO-WORKERS IN WAYS THAT MAYBE WE WOULDN'T HAVE PRIOR. IN SOME WAYS IT FEELS LIKE WE CAN ENHANCE THAT FEELING OF CONNECTEDNESS WITH OUR CO-WORKERS AS WELL.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Nam says TREENA, JUST TO GO ON ABOUT WHAT SHAUNA WAS SAYING AND TO TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, WHAT ARE SOME DIFFERENCES OF NOTE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN IN THIS ZOOM CULTURE?

Treena says THAT WAS ONE OF THE KEY THINGS WE DISCUSSED IN THE ARTICLE WAS TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF OUR OBSERVATION THAT BASED ON HUNDREDS OF MEETINGS IT WAS EVIDENT THAT MEN USED CUSTOM BACKGROUNDS MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY THAN WOMEN AND WE WERE TRYING TO THINK ABOUT WHY THAT MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW? I THINK THERE IS THE CREATIVE KIND OF FUN GAME PIECE FOR SURE. BUT I THINK IN GENERAL WOMEN ARE USED TO OCCUPYING MULTIPLE SPACES ON A REGULAR BASIS. NOT THAT THERE ISN'T A DISTINCTION BETWEEN HOME AND THE OFFICE. BUT I THINK WOMEN MOVE BETWEEN DIFFERENT SPACES MORE REGULARLY, AND SO THE SHIFT FROM THE OFFICE TO WORKING IN DOMESTIC SPACES HASN'T BEEN AS MUCH OF A TRANSITION FOR THEM AS IT HAS BEEN FOR SOME MEN. AND I THINK THAT USING THE CUSTOM BACKGROUND, IT'S A FUN THING. IT'S ALSO USED TO HIDE CLUTTER. THERE ARE PRACTICAL REASONS. BUT I THINK FOR SOME PEOPLE IT'S ALSO A WAY TO ANCHOR A SPACE AND MARK IT AS WORK WHEN IT IS NOT TAKING PLACE IN THE OFFICE, IT'S IN THE HOME. SO IT'S A WAY OF WORKIFYING A DOMESTIC SPACE.

Nam says DO YOU THINK WOMEN STAGE FOR MEETINGS?

Shauna says I ONLY HAVE ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, IF YOU WILL, ON THIS. I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN DO SPEND A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT THEIR BACKGROUNDS AND, YOU KNOW, LIKELY LOTS OF MEN AS WELL. I CAN SPEAK FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. MY PARTNER ALSO TEACHES AN ONLINE CLASS AND HE DOES NOT CARE WHAT'S IN THE BACKGROUND AND I'M SHUFFLING HIM AROUND AND SETTING THINGS UP AND TELLING HIM TO MOVE HIS CHAIR OVER A LITTLE BIT. AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE WORTH LOOKING INTO A LITTLE BIT MORE RIGOROUSLY IN THE FUTURE FOR SURE.

Nam says THAT SOUNDS LIKE ME EXCEPT I'M TELLING MY CHILDREN TO, LIKE, LEAVE THE BACKGROUND, ANY TIME ZOOM COMES ON, THEY'RE LIKE... I'M SAYING, NO, NOT RIGHT NOW. KRISTOPHER, I KNOW WE TOUCHED ON IT A LITTLE BIT ABOUT VIDEO GAMES, BUT CAN YOU TELL US A BIT MORE ABOUT THE INFLUENCE OF GAMING AND YOUTUBE ON THE WAY PEOPLE APPROACH VIDEO CALLS?

Kristopher says AMAZING. SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'LL FIND AND A LOT OF MY WORK STARTS TO DELVE INTO THIS. THAT'S THE DISCONNECT WE'RE FINDING HERE. BACK TO DOPAMINE PATHWAYS, PARTICULARLY GAMERS, THEY'RE USED TO A CERTAIN LEVEL OF ENGAGEMENT WITH THE PERSON ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SCREEN, ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE WATCHING TWITCH AND YOUTUBE, AND TRANSITIONING THAT INTO POSTSECONDARY INSTITUTIONS, SOME STREAMS GO ON FOR SEVERAL HOURS, LIKE AWESOME DAYS DONE QUICK WHEN PEOPLE ARE SPEED RUNNING GAMES LIVE IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE, THE AUDIENCE IS ENGAGING WITH THEM. PUT THAT SAME HUMAN IN FRONT OF A POSTSECONDARY LECTURER WHERE I'M HEARING SOME TEACHERS ARE PREVENTING STUDENTS FROM CHATTING AND INTERACTING, AND AS A GAMER, I'M HEARING THESE THINGS, I'M LIKE, OOH, I'M NOT SURE THEY'RE AWARE OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUTUBE AND TWITCH, BECAUSE IN MY CLASS, MY STUDENTS' ACTIVITY ARE OF CRITICAL IMPORTANCE. THEY NEED TO SEE THEIR QUESTIONS ON SCREEN. WHEN THEY'RE CHATTING I CALL THEM OUT BY NAME AND SAY WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT? "OH, HE'S TALKING TO ME." JUST LIKE WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE VIDEO GAME CULTURE. IT'S FUN TALKING ABOUT PLAYING VIDEO GAMES, BUT THE CULTURE, ALL THE THINGS SURROUNDING THE DISCIPLINE ARE WHAT I FEEL CAN ENHANCE CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION, NOT JUST IN ELEMENTARY BUT ALSO IN POSTSECONDARY.

Nam says I WANT TO ASK ALL OF YOU THIS NEXT QUESTION, AND I'LL START WITH YOU, KRISTOPHER, JUST TO BUILD ON WHAT YOU WERE SAYING. YOU KNOW, THIS WHOLE ZOOM CULTURE, IT'S NEW TO A LOT OF PEOPLE, AND WHAT I SAID BEFORE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, LISTENING, I FEEL LIKE I'M SPYING ON MY KIDS' TEACHERS, BUT THERE'S REALLY NOWHERE FOR ME TO GO BECAUSE I NEED TO BE AROUND THE KIDS TO HELP THEM NAVIGATE THE ONLINE SPACE. BUT DO YOU THINK THERE IS A WORRY ABOUT BEING JUDGED UNFAIRLY BY HOW PROFESSIONALLY YOU PRESENT YOURSELF ONLINE? KRISTOPHER, I'LL START WITH YOU.

The caption changes to "Kid and pet cameos."

Kristopher says WELL, AS MENTIONED EARLIER, I HAVE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO WORRY ABOUT MY PROFESSIONAL APPEARANCE MY ENTIRE LIFE. AS YOU CAN SEE HOW I'M CONSTANTLY REPOSITIONING MY TIE FOR THIS PARTICULAR ENGAGEMENT. BUT I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE WORRY AS MUCH AS IT IS NAVIGATING THAT WORRY. FOR EXAMPLE, IN MY PARTICULAR CASE, IN MEETINGS, EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN MY KIDS ARE IN THE ROOM BECAUSE I START SPEAKING IN FRENCH. EVERYBODY SAYS LET'S HEAR HIM, HE'S SPEAKING FRENCH. WE'RE ABLE TO INDICATE TO OUR VIEWERS WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. AND THE AMOUNT OF CARE, I HEAR STUDENTS SAY, WHATEVER YOUR DAUGHTER COMES IN, KRIS, YOU GET SO SOFT AND NICE. WE LOVE HEARING THAT. THEY JOKE ABOUT IT. BUT I KNOW THEY KNOW, OH, HE REALLY LOVES HIS KIDS, EN FRANCAIS, BUT THAT'S A WAY I CAN EXPLAIN MY LIFE, MY STORY, VIA THE WAY THEY SEE ME. SO THE KIDS INTERRUPTING, ME INTERACTING NOT IN A... JUST BASED ON THE WAY MY WIFE AND I DEAL WITH MY KIDS, SHOW THE STUDENTS I CARE ABOUT MY OWN KIDS BUT ALSO SHOWS I CARE ABOUT THEM AS WELL.

Nam says THIS IS OFF-TOPIC, BUT DO THEY LISTEN TO YOU BETTER IN FRENCH THAN ENGLISH? I NEED HELP. WE'LL TALK AFTERWARDS. TREENA AND SHAUNA, I WANT TO YOU ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION. DO YOU THINK THERE IS A WORRY ABOUT BEING JUDGED UNFAIRLY ABOUT HOW YOU PRESENT YOURSELF ONLINE? SHAUNA, I'LL START WITH YOU.

Shauna says I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY A CONSIDERATION. I MEAN, IT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT'S ALWAYS IN MY MIND. YOU KNOW, MY KIDS WHEN I HAVE REALLY IMPORTANT WORK, MEETINGS, TO BE QUIET, AND BE IN A DIFFERENT ROOM. BUT THERE CAN BE REAL BEAUTY IN THIS HUMANNESS AND SEEING PEOPLE IN THEIR LIVES AND THEIR FAMILY LIVES AGAIN IN WAYS WE WOULDN'T HAVE OTHERWISE. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST REAL. WE'RE ALL LIVING THROUGH THIS PANDEMIC AND THERE'S GOING TO BE INTERRUPTIONS. IN MY ONE LARGE CLASS THAT I TEACH, I STARTED CREATING A BLOOPER REEL WITH ALL OF THE INTERRUPTIONS THAT I WAS EXPERIENCING. I THOUGHT THESE ARE TOO GOOD TO DELETE SO I STARTED SAVING THEM AND PUTTING THEM AT THE END OF MY LECTURES FOR COMIC RELIEF. IT'S LIFE. I HAVE KIDS AND PETS AND A PARTNER AND MY HOUSE IS LOUD. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE CAN BE SOME BENEFITS AS WELL.

Nam says AND TREENA?

Treena says YEAH. I THINK... I DON'T HAVE ANY CHILDREN OR A LIVE-IN PARTNER, BUT I DO HAVE TWO CATS, ONE OF WHOM IS EXTREMELY VOCAL. AND A NUMBER OF MY MEETINGS HAVE BEEN INTERRUPTED BY ELLIOTT, AND THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO. BECAUSE SHE IS THE CENTRE OF MY UNIVERSE, AND WE'RE IN HER HOUSE, OKAY? THAT IS OFTEN COMICAL AND IT DOESN'T LAST FOR A WHOLE MEETING, BUT IT DEFINITELY IS TIME AWAY, IT'S A LITTLE UNPROFESSIONAL. HOWEVER, IN MY CLASSES, PRE-ZOOM AND DURING COVID, I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT MY CATS, I TALK ABOUT MY HOME, I TALK ABOUT MY FAMILY, MY LITTLE NEPHEWS. SO I THINK FOR A LOT OF STUDENTS THEY REALLY LOVE TO SEE, OKAY, THIS IS HER HOUSE. YOU KNOW? AND IT'S THE SAME WHEN THEY COME TO MY OFFICE, WHICH IS WHERE... MY OFFICE AT THE UNIVERSITY, WHICH IS WHERE I'M TALKING FROM TODAY. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A REALLY CHILL, THERAPEUTIC VIBE AND IT'S A REALLY BECOMING SPACE. AND I THINK EVEN VISUALLY THROUGH ZOOM, THEY CAN ASSESS AND APPRECIATE THAT.

Nam says I THINK ONE THING THAT IS ZOOM CULTURE IS EXPOSING IS KIND OF THE MESSINESS OF LIFE AND HOW HUMAN WE ALL ARE. AND SPEAKING OF, A YEAR AGO, WE SAW A VIRAL CLIP THAT, WHEN IT FIRST CAME OUT, WE WERE LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED? WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT AFTER. SHELDON, COULD YOU PLEASE ROLL.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "March 10, 2017."
In the clip, a middle-aged, clean-shaven man sits inside an office space in a dark suit, white shirt and dark red tie.

As an interviewer speaks, a young girl prances into the office in the background and walks over to the man being interviewed.

The interviewer says WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR THE WIDER REGION? I THINK ONE OF YOUR CHILDREN HAS JUST WALKED IN. I MEAN, SHIFTING SANDS IN THE REGION, DO YOU THINK THE RELATIONS WITH THE NORTH MAY CHANGE?

A baby in a walker barges in and crawls over to the man.

The man says I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF THEY DO... PARDON ME.

[LAUGHTER]

A young woman dashes into the office and drags the kids away.

The man says MY APOLOGIES. MY APOLOGIES.

The clip ends.

[LAUGHTER]

Nam says SORRY, WE WERE LAUGHING ABOUT THAT. ACTUALLY THAT CLIP CAME OUT IN 2017. SO IT CAME OUT WAY BEFORE ITS TIME AND, SHAUNA, AT THE TIME WE ALL THOUGHT HOW UNUSUAL IT WAS FOR KIDS TO RUN INTO THE SHOT. NOW WE SEE IT EVERY DAY AND WE SEE PETS. HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR EMPLOYERS AND COLLEAGUES TO TAKE THAT IN STRIDE WHEN KIDS OR PETS APPEAR?

Shauna says FIRST OF ALL, I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT WAS SO LONG AGO AND, YES, HOW STRANGE AT THE TIME IT SEEMED AND ATYPICAL, WHEREAS NOW I FEEL LIKE IN MOST MEETINGS I'M A PART OF, THERE ARE THINGS LIKE THAT HAPPENING ALL THE TIME. FORTUNATELY, I THINK, TREENA AND I WORK IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT'S VERY ACCEPTING IN TOLERATING AND WELCOMING, ACTUALLY, I WOULD SAY, IN LOTS OF INSTANCES THESE TYPES OF INTERRUPTIONS. SO I THINK IT'S JUST... YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE OBVIOUSLY NOT LIVED THROUGH BEFORE AND LIKE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THE LESSONS, I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE TAKING AWAY FROM THIS TIME, IT'S PATIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING AND KINDNESS AND UNDERSTANDING THAT PEOPLE ARE HUMAN.

Nam says KRIS, WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE FOR PEOPLE WHEN THIS HAPPENS, WHEN SOMEONE'S PET WALKS ONTO A ZOOM CALL OR THEIR CHILDREN COME INTO THE CALL?

Kristopher says WELL, WHEN IT HAPPENS TO ME, OFTEN BABY WANTS TO COME IN AND SAY, DADDY, WHAT YOU DOING? COME ON IN.
[SPEAKING IN FRENCH]
THEN THEY COME AND THEY'LL PEEK AND SEE A LITTLE GUY AND THEY ALL MELT. AS MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, A LOT OF THESE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO SHOW PEOPLE YOUR WARMTH, YOUR CARE, AND IN MY CASE, SHATTER A LOT OF STEREOTYPES ABOUT FATHERHOOD PRESENCE AND JUST ENGAGEMENT WITH FAMILY.

Nam says YOU'D LIKE TO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL BE UNDERSTANDING ABOUT SEEING THE CUTE PET BECAUSE WHO DOESN'T LIKE A CUTE CAT OR A CUTE, YOU KNOW, CHILD'S FACE? BUT, TREENA, IN SOME SITUATIONS, I THINK THAT THIS DOES CAUSE A LOT OF STRESS BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE'RE AT HOME, WE'RE ALSO WORKING FROM HOME AND THERE'S A LINE THAT SHOULDN'T BE CROSSED. DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS A DISADVANTAGE FOR WOMEN?

Treena says I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY GENDERED AND I THINK LOOKING AT THE OBSERVATIONS OVER THE LAST ALMOST YEAR WHEN THESE... I DON'T WANT TO SAY INTERRUPTIONS, BUT WHEN THESE THINGS OCCUR, 99 percent OF THE TIME IT'S WITH MY FEMALE COLLEAGUES, WHETHER IT'S OTHER PROFESSORS OR STAFF. SO THAT'S FAIRLY REVEALING. AND I THINK THAT, LIKE YOU SAID, THERE IS USUALLY INITIALLY A RATHER STRICKEN LOOK ON PEOPLE'S FACES. YOU KNOW? BUT I THINK OVER TIME WE HAVE SEEN THAT KIND OF EVOLVE TO A MORE GRADUAL KIND OF ACCEPTANCE AND WE KNOW SORT OF WELCOMING THE CHILD OR THE PET ONTO THE SCREEN BECAUSE IT DOES OFFER A LITTLE BIT OF RELIEF AND KIND OF COMIC KIND OF NATURE AND ALSO A REMINDER THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT? WE'RE NOT PERFECT. AND WORK IS NOT REALLY JUST A HARD-BOUND THING. NOW IT'S TAKING PLACE IN OTHER SPACES WHERE WE LIVE. AND SO NATURALLY THERE'S GOING TO BE OVERFLOW BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, DOMESTIC AND WORK AND OUR CHILDREN, RIGHT, AND OUR PETS. SO I THINK WE BECOME A LOT MORE WELCOMING OF IT, WHICH IS VERY POSITIVE.

Nam says WE'VE KIND OF TOUCHED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT BUT, SHAUNA, WHAT IS ZOOM FATIGUE?

The caption changes to "Video call fatigue."

Shauna says SO I'M DEFINITELY NOT AN EXPERT IN ZOOM FATIGUE, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING OF IT IS THAT, AGAIN, IT'S REALLY TOUGH ON OUR PSYCHE, IT'S VERY COMPLICATED, AND BEING, YOU KNOW, COMMUNICATING WITH PEOPLE IN A VIRTUAL SETTING OR ENVIRONMENT WHERE, AGAIN, WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE NON-VERBAL CUES, YOU KNOW, EVEN JUST... EXCUSE ME... SOMEBODY TAKING A BREATH BEFORE THEY'RE ABOUT TO SPEAK. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN INTERRUPTED OR ARE INTERRUPTED ON ZOOM. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE CHALLENGING AND HARD WORK AND I THINK CAN BE OVERWHELMING AND EXHAUSTING, AGAIN, WHEN WE'RE FOCUSING JUST ON PEOPLE'S WORDS AND, AGAIN, NOT HAVING ACCESS TO A LOT OF THE WAYS WE TYPICALLY WOULD COMMUNICATE IN PERSON.

Nam says TREENA, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF ZOOM AND ONLINE CONFERENCING. IT'S ALLOWED A LOT OF US TO BE ABLE TO WORK FROM HOME. WHAT DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, THAT WE'VE LOST BY NOT HAVING IN-PERSON FACE-TO-FACE CONNECTIONS?

Treena says WELL, I THINK WHAT WE'VE LOST IS, YOU KNOW, THE SENSE AND THE FEEL OF ONE ANOTHER, AND ALSO THE CASUAL WAYS THAT WE CAN INTERACT. LIKE, I MISSING CRUISING DOWN THE HALLWAY, BUMPING INTO MY COLLEAGUES OR MY STUDENTS JUST KIND OF ACCIDENTALLY. AND THAT'S SUCH A POWERFUL WAY TO MAINTAIN REARS AND, YOU KNOW, CONTINUE THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH AND JUST GETTING CAUGHT UP ON ONE ANOTHER'S LIVES. NOW I THINK WE HAVE TO DO... WE'RE ALL SCHEDULERS. YOU KNOW, IT'S EITHER YOU'VE GOT TO PICK UP THE PHONE OR ARRANGE A ZOOM AND MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS THE LINK AND THE PASSWORD. YOU HAVE TO DO ALL THAT JUST TO CONNECT. SO I THINK IT CAN BE LIBERATING AND FUN AND IT'S A GOOD WAY TO ACCESS EACH OTHER AND IT ALLOWS THE WORK ENVIRONMENT TO KEEP GOING, BUT I THINK A LOT OF US REALLY MISS THAT TOUCH AND SIGHT. AND LIKE I SAID, SMELL OF ONE ANOTHER AND JUST SEEING EACH OTHER IN A WAY THAT WE'RE USED TO.

Nam says WE TALK A LOT ABOUT THE AFTER-TIMES AND WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE MOVING FORWARD. KRISTOPHER, WHAT DO YOU THINK IN THE FUTURE, WHEN ALL THIS IS SAID AND DONE, WHAT ASPECTS OF VIDEO CALLING WILL WE LOOK BACK ONTO ON THE REGULAR WORLD AND INCORPORATE INTO THAT WORLD?

Kristopher says WHAT I'M EXCITED ABOUT, JUST TO GET BACK IN ADDITION TO ANSWERING THE QUESTION, SOME OF THE THINGS I'VE LOST VIA ZOOM IS HIDDEN CUES OF WHO'S HIP TO WHAT'S GOING ON, WHO'S CONNECTED AND WHAT I'VE GAINED... I'VE LOST SOME OF THE NON-PRAGMATIC ELEMENTS OF THE WORK: WHAT IS THE TASK? LET ME EXECUTE THOSE. THE OTHER THING THAT I'VE GAINED IS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF TIME WITH MY KIDS. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER BOTH OF MY PARENTS WERE LAID OFF AND THEY HAD A SIMILAR AMOUNT OF TIME THAT I'M NOW ABLE TO HAVE WITH MY KIDS AND I'M LIKE, OH, MY GOODNESS. HAD THIS NOT HAPPENED, I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD UPWARDS OF, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT OF TIME I'M ABLE TO CONNECT WITH THEM BECAUSE MY WIFE AND I PRETTY MUCH EQUALLY SHARE THE CHILD-BEARING... CHILD BEARING. WHY DID I SAY THAT? NO WAY? MY WIFE IS GOING TO KILL ME. SORRY, LOVE. SO IT'S WRITTEN. SHE KNOWS. SO, YEAH. SOME OF THE LOSSES ARE... SOME OF THE HIDDEN CORPORATE CULTURE THAT OFTEN GETS SAID BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, YOU HAVE TO REALLY TALK ABOUT THE TASK NOW AND THE GAINS OF THE FAMILY, OF COURSE. WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER THERE ARE SOME OF THE BITS THAT I KIND OF APPRECIATE STILL LIKE, HEY, THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. LET'S DO THAT. NOT, WELL, YOU KNOW HOW KRIS IS. THAT'S ALL GONE WITH ZOOM MEETINGS. YOU KNOW HOW KRIS IS. THAT STUFF USED TO HAPPEN AND IT'S TOUGHER TO EXECUTE. THAT'S MY PERSPECTIVE ON IT. IT'S NOT THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY. BUT THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS. I LIKE TO LOOK AT THE BENEFITS OF SOME OF THESE THINGS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Carla Lucchetta, @carrletta."

Nam says WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR INSIGHTS. THIS HAS BEEN A FUN AND EDUCATIONAL CHAT AND THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE TONIGHT. WE APPRECIATE YOU TAKING SOME TIME FOR US TONIGHT ON "THE AGENDA."

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Kristopher says THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Shauna says THANK YOU.

Treena says IT WAS GREAT, THANK YOU.

Watch: Has Zoom Widened the Gender Gap?