Transcript: Pandemic Exodus and Toronto's Path Forward | Sep 28, 2020

Jeyan sits in the studio. He's is in his thirties, with short black hair and a trimmed beard. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and burgundy tie.

A caption on screen reads "Pandemic exodus and Toronto's path forward. Jeyan Jeganathan. @JeyanTVO. @theagenda."

Jeyan says EVEN AS THOUSANDS EVERY YEAR FLOCKED TO ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY, TORONTONIANS HAVE ALSO BEEN LEAVING THE CITY FOR YEARS, IN SEARCH FOR MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING OPTIONS AND MORE SPACE. SIX MONTHS INTO COVID-19 HITTING PEOPLE HARD ECONOMICALLY, AND MAKING MANY WORK FROM HOME, IS AN EXODUS OUT OF TOWN ON THE HORIZON? LET'S FIND OUT, OURS GUESTS WHO ARE JOINING US ALL FROM TORONTO: IN CORKTOWN: MARY ROWE, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE CANADIAN URBAN INSTITUTE...

Mary is in her fifties, with chin-length wavy blond hair. She's wearing glasses and a black sweater.

Steve continues ALSO, IN LESLIEVILLE: JOHN PASALIS, FOUNDER, PRESIDENT AND BROKER OF REALOSOPHY REALTY, WHO CRUNCHES REAL ESTATE DATA ON THE MOVE SMARTLY BLOG...

John is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a black suit and a pink shirt.

Steve continues AND FROM EGLINTON WEST: IMPACT INVESTOR AND WRITER MELISSA ALICE, WHO RECENTLY MADE THE CASE ON TVO.org THAT TORONTO MAY NEVER RECOVER FROM THIS PANDEMIC.

Melissa is in her thirties, with long brown hair in a bun. She's wearing a red shirt.

Jeyan continues WELCOME, EVERYONE.

Mary says HI.

Melissa says THANK YOU.

John says THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

Jeyan says NOW, MELISSA, THAT OP-ED GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE TALKING. I WANT TO SHOW A LITTLE SNIPPET OF WHAT YOU WROTE. SO IT SAYS...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Is the allure of Toronto fading?" The quote reads "The career opportunities, social life, restaurants, sporting events, and cultural cachet are what made Toronto, well, Toronto. Without the opportunities, the shiny attractions, and the requirement to live within a reasonable commuting distance of work, people may be less willing to tolerate the sky-high housing prices and rents, traffic, pollution, noise, and family-unfriendly condo lifestyle. Unless all levels of government work together to revive old industries, create new ones, and sustainably invest in the health of Canada's largest city, the allure of the Big Smoke may disappear into thin air."
Quoted from Melissa Alice, TVO.org. September 17, 2020.

Jeyan says NOW, MELISSA, YOU WROTE THAT ARTICLE EARLIER THIS MONTH. IT SEEMED TO STRIKE A NERVE WITH TORONTONIANS. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

The caption changes to "Melissa Alice. Impact Investor."
Then, it changes again to "Urban flight."

Melissa says DID IT EVER (LAUGHING). I THINK IT'S BECAUSE... NUMBER ONE IS, WE'RE VERY SERIOUSLY LOYAL AND PROTECTIVE OF OUR CITY. I THINK ALL OF US HAVE INVESTED SO MUCH INTO MAKING IT THE AMAZING WORLD CLASS CITY THAT IT IS AND THAT IT WAS BECOMING, AND TO SEE ALL OF THAT BECOMING UNDONE BECAUSE OF THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE VIRUS, IT DOES STRIKE A CHORD BECAUSE IT'S A CITY THAT WE ALL HOLD CLOSE TO OUR HEARTS AND WE WANT THE BEST FOR IT. WE LIVE HERE, WE HAVE INVESTED IN IT. IT'S HARD TO SEE IT REGRESS TO THE EXTENT THAT IT IS REGRESSING.

Jeyan says NOW, MARY, MELISSA SUGGESTED IN THE TITLE OF HER OP-ED "TORONTO MAY NEVER RECOVER FROM COVID-19." WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON THE CITY'S ABILITY TO WEATHER THIS STORM?

The caption changes to "Mary Rowe. Canadian Urban Institute.."

Mary says YOU KNOW THAT FAMOUS MARK TWAIN QUOTE THAT RUMOURS OF MY DEATH ARE GROSSLY EXAGGERATED. CITIES ARE ABOUT CONSTANT CHURN AND CHANGE. AND THE COVID EXPERIENCE AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE COMING ALONG WITH IT ARE LIKE A PARTICLE ACCELERATOR, THEY'RE MAKING VISIBLE THE THINGS THAT WERE ALREADY CHALLENGING IN TORONTO, AFFORDABILITY IS ONE OF THEM. BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN UNDERESTIMATE THE CAPACITY OF A CITY WHICH IS A LIVING THING. IT'S FULL OF PEOPLE. AND SO AS MUCH AS I HEAR WHAT MELISSA IS SAYING, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE CONCERNED THAT THE THINGS ABOUT THE CITY THAT ATTRACTED THEM THERE. WHAT REALLY ATTRACT US TO CITIES ARE PEOPLE. AND PEOPLE CONTINUE TO CONGREGATE AND AGGREGATE BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, THE SOCIAL OPPORTUNITY, THE CULTURAL OPPORTUNITY. I DON'T WANT TO UNDERESTIMATE OUR INGENUITY TO CONTINUE TO INVEST IN CONGREGATE LIVING IN SAFER WAYS, IN MORE EQUITABLE WAYS. I THINK WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF A BIG WAKE-UP CALL. I THINK IT'S WAY TOO EARLY TO COUNT TORONTO OUT. SORRY, MELISSA. MAYBE I'M TOO HELPFUL. THE THINGS YOU'RE LAMENTED, ACTUALLY, IF YOU GO OUT INTO SOME OF THE NEIGHBOURHOODS, IF YOU GO INTO LOCAL NEIGHBOURHOODS, YOU WILL SEE REALLY REMARKABLE INNOVATION AND PEOPLE DOING REALLY SMART THINGS NOW TO MAKE THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING ON MAIN STREET SAFER, TO CONTINUE TO HAVE COMMERCIAL LIFE, AND SOME SHARED LIFE, WHETHER YOU'RE WALKING OR SITTING OR HANGING OUT. I DON'T WANT TO UNDERESTIMATE... CITIES HAVE SURVIVED AND SURVIVED AND THEY WILL CONTINUE. [indiscernible] WHAT WE'RE GOING TO WITNESS IS EXTRAORDINARY CHANGE, BUT RESURGENCE.

Jeyan says I WANT TO GET JOHN IN THIS. JOHN, PEOPLE IN TORONTO HAVE BEEN MOVING OUT OF THE CITY. I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN TORONTO. I MOVED OUT TO HAMILTON FIVE YEARS AGO. PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT HAMILTON AND BARRIE AND HAVE BEEN LIVING THERE FOR YEARS. HOW IS THIS MOVEMENT DIFFERENT FROM THOSE MOVEMENTS?

The caption changes to "John Pasalis. Realosophy Realty."

John says IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT. YEAH, WE HAVE ALWAYS SEEN PEOPLE MOVING OUT OF THE CITY, YOU KNOW, SINCE THE STATE OF EMERGENCY, WE'VE DEFINITELY SEEN A SURGE IN KIND OF TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE MOVING. I MEAN, THE FIRST GROUP, WHICH IS SMALLER, I'D SAY, ARE FAMILIES WHO HAVE SMALLER HOMES IN THE DOWNTOWN CORE MOVING OUT TO THE VERY OUTER SUBURBS, AND THAT HAS DEFINITELY BEEN A TREND. THE OTHER BIG TREND AND PROBABLY THE MORE SIGNIFICANT ONE IS PEOPLE MOVING OUT OF CONDOS. AND THAT'S WHERE WE'RE SEEING THIS REAL SURGE IN CONDO RENTAL INVENTORY AND CONDOS FOR SALE, AND THE REASON THE RENTAL INVENTORY IS SPIKING RIGHT NOW IT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE MOVING OUT OF THEIR CONDOS AND THEY'RE MOVING OUT OF THEM FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. I MEAN, MANY OF THE REASONS THAT MELISSA HIGHLIGHTED, A LOT OF THE REASONS PEOPLE LIVE DOWNTOWN ARE GONE, THE NIGHT CLUBS, THE RESTAURANTS, ALL OF THOSE REASONS ARE NOT THERE, AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE, IF YOU LOOK BACK WHO HAVE BEEN IMPACTED THE MOST BY COVID, HAVE BEEN RENTERS. THEY'RE DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED, THEIR JOBS HAVE BEEN LOST. SO WE'RE DEFINITELY SEEING A BIT OF A SHIFT OUT OF THE CITY FOR BOTH OF THOSE REASONS, AND I THINK THE HARDEST HIT AREAS ARE CERTAINLY THE DOWNTOWN CONDO MARKET RIGHT NOW.

Jeyan says NOT EVERYONE AGREES THERE'S AN URBAN EXODUS HAPPENING. HERE'S WHAT URBANIST RICHARD FLORIDA HAD TO SAY BACK IN AN ARTICLE IN JULY. IT READS: "WE'VE ONLY SEEN A MOVEMENT OUT OF THREE CITIES: NEW YORK, BOSTON, AND DETROIT. WE'VE SEEN NOTHING OF THIS IN TORONTO. THERE HAS BEEN NO MASSIVE EXODUS of people OUT OF TORONTO INTO THE SUBURBS, OVER AND ABOVE THE FAMILY FORMATION MOVES WE'VE SEEN BEFORE. WHAT WE'RE LIKELY TO SEE IS FAR LESS A DISRUPTION OR A RECASTING OF TRENDS AND FAR MORE AN ACCELERATION OF CHANGE THAT IS ALREADY UNDERWAY." THAT WAS AN ARTICLE BY RICHARD FLORIDA IN THE NATIONAL POST IN JULY. MARY, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF RICHARD'S ARGUMENT?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

The caption changes to "Mary Rowe, @rowemw."

Mary says WELL, I THINK HE'S RIGHT. BUT I WILL ALSO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, RICHARD LIVES IN TORONTO BUT HE'S AN AMERICAN. [indiscernible] AND HE'S CITING THREE AMERICAN CITIES WHERE THEY HAVE CELL PHONE DATA SUGGESTING PEOPLE HAVE LEFT. THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN CITIES HAVE BEEN AN EXODUS, LARGELY DRIVEN BY RACE AND INCOME, HISTORICALLY, OVER DECADES. SO THERE'S A DIFFERENT PATTERN... AND AMERICANS ARE WISE TO WATCH... IT COULD POTENTIALLY REPLICATE. I THINK WE NEED TO BE CLEAR. IT'S MORE OF A PATTERN OF MOBILITY IN AMERICAN CITIES TO HAVE PLACES TO GO TO ON THE WEEKEND. WE DON'T HAVE THAT IN TORONTO TO THE SAME EXTENT. CERTAINLY WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE VACATION HOMES AND GO IN THE SUMMER, LIKE TO THEIR COTTAGE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME PATTERNS WHERE A WHOLE BLOCK AFTER BLOCK AFTER BLOCK DECAMP EVERY WEEKEND. IT'S A DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHIC PATTERN. AND TORONTONIANS TAKE SERIOUSLY THEIR COMMITMENT TO BEING IN THEIR PLACE 24-7. WE'VE MADE A LIVABLE CITY. FLORIDA HAS REFERRED TO THIS. PEOPLE HAVE MADE IT A 24-7, SEVEN DAY A WEEK CITY. SO I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT SAME ISSUE. I WANT TO RESPOND TO JOHN, IF I MAY? AS MUCH AS JOHN IS SUGGESTING THAT THAT YOUNG FAMILY THAT'S BEEN LIVING IN A SMALL CONDO, THEY HAVE A BABY AND ABOUT TO GET A SECOND ONE, THEY WERE LOOKING TO GET OUT ANYWAY. THAT'S A LIFESTYLE DECISION THAT LOTS AND LOTS OF FAMILIES MAKE. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT USUALLY, WE HAVE IMMIGRATION AND WE HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE COMING IN TO EASILY TAKE UP THAT SPACE. AND SO THE NUMBERS DON'T NECESSARILY REFLECT JUST EXODUS BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE COMING IN. AND I STILL THINK THAT'S HAPPENING. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW YOUR DATA CAN TRACK THAT, JOHN. OBVIOUSLY IMMIGRATION ISN'T... BUT THAT WILL RESETTLE ITSELF. WE'LL SEE IMMIGRATION, I'M SURE, RETURNING. JOHN, I'M INTERESTED WHETHER YOUR DATA WILL SHOW THIS. I'M SURE YOU'LL TELL US. THAT RESIDENTIAL HOMES, SINGLE FAMILY HOMES AT THE MOMENT ARE ACTUALLY STILL IN BIDDING WARS IN TORONTO. SO SOMEBODY IS COMING AND WANTING TO LIVE HERE. AND MY GUESS IS, IT MAY BE SOME OF THOSE CONDO DWELLERS WHERE A DECISION WAS KIND OF IN THE BACK OF THEIR MINDS, WE BETTER THINK ABOUT THIS, WE BETTER THINK ABOUT THIS, AND NOW THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE MARKET AND BUY A HOUSE NOW. I JUST DON'T THINK [indiscernible]. I DO THINK THERE ARE PROFOUND CHALLENGES FOR US IN TERMS OF RETHINKING THE RECONFIGURATION OF SPACES GENERALLY. IN TERMS OF THE SUPPLY THAT'S GOING TO COME ON NEXT. AND WHAT DOES CONDO LIFE NEED TO LOOK LIKE THAT ALLOWS MORE SHARED SPACE AND PUBLIC SAFE AND CAN BE SAFER. BECAUSE WE HAVE NEIGHBOURHOODS ACROSS THE CITY WHERE PEOPLE ARE IN APARTMENTS THAT AREO TOO SMALL, WHERE THEY ARE OVERCROWDED AND WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BE SAFE EITHER FROM THE VIRUS OR FROM THE DOMESTIC CHALLENGES OF LIVING IN A CRAMPED SPACE. I THINK THAT'S A PROFOUND CHALLENGE TO BUILDERS AND PEOPLE IN JOHN'S INDUSTRY TO CHANGE THAT.

Jeyan says WITH THAT, I'M GOING TO LET JOHN RESPOND. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF RICHARD'S ARGUMENT THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN A MASSIVE EXODUS AS WELL?

John says YOU KNOW, TO SOME EXTENT, HE'S RIGHT IN THE SENSE THAT WE'RE FOR SURE SEEING A BIT OF AN EXODUS FROM LOW-RISE HOMES IN THE CITY, SO FAMILIES THAT HAVE SEMIS, TO THE OUTER SUBURBS. BUT IT IS NOT A MASS EXODUS, YOU KNOW? THERE ARE STILL BIDDING WARS IN TORONTO. THE CITY OF TORONTO IS STILL A VERY BOOMING CITY. SO THE LOW-RISE HOME MARKET IS NOT MATERIALLY IMPACTED BY THIS. YOU KNOW, THIS IS... THESE ARE PROBABLY HUNDREDS OF FAMILIES THAT ARE MOVING OUT OF THE CITY, AND BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE REALLY OUTER SUBURBAN AREAS DON'T HAVE A LOT OF SALES, PROPORTIONATELY THEY HAVE A BIG INCREASE IN SORT OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE COMPETING ON THOSE HOMES. I TEND TO AGREE THAT IS NOT THE BIGGEST FACTOR. BUT THE BIG FACTOR I THINK HE MISSES IN HIS ARGUMENT IS THAT WE'RE DEFINITELY SEEING AN EXODUS OUT OF CITIES, AND IT IS NOT JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSIZING FROM CONDOS. THOSE ARE PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR CONDOS AND ARE MOVING. SO THE BIG EXODUS REALLY THAT WE'RE FINDING ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE RENTING CONDOMINIUMS, WHO ARE MOVING OUT OF THEM. RENTS IN TORONTO HAVE DROPPED ABOUT 20 percent DOWNTOWN OVER LAST YEAR, AND THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY DUE TO A BIG DECLINE IN DEMAND. RENTAL DEMAND HAS BEEN ROUGHLY THE SAME AS LAST YEAR, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IMMIGRATION IS LOWER. IT'S REALLY DRIVEN BY THE SURGE IN SUPPLY AND THE SURGE IN SUPPLY IS BECAUSE A REALLY HIGH NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE JUST MOVING OUT OF THEIR UNITS, PARTLY BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THEM, PARTLY BECAUSE THEY'RE NO LONGER WALKING TO WORK AND THEIR MICRO CONDO IS NO LONGER BIG ENOUGH FOR THEM TO LIVE AND WORK OUT OF. SO THESE ARE THE TRENDS THAT ARE IMPACTING THE CITY OF TORONTO RIGHT NOW.

The caption changes to "Booming in the 'burbs."

Jeyan says JOHN, YOU PROVIDED US WITH SOME DATA, SINCE WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT NUMBERS. I WANT TO PULL UP THIS URBAN EXODUS CHART. LET US KNOW WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE. YOU CAN SEE TORONTO AT THE BOTTOM THERE, YOU TOUCHED ON A LITTLE BIT. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT?

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Exodus: Percent change in home sales, June-August 2020 versus 2019."

A bar chart compares Toronto, with about 10 percent change, to Peel, York, Halton, Durham, Dufferin and Simcoe, all of which show a higher percentage. The highest is Simcoe with almost 70 percent.

John says THIS IS BASICALLY A CHART THAT SHOWS HOW SALES HAVE CHANGED FROM JUNE TO AUGUST OF THIS YEAR TO JUNE TO AUGUST OF LAST YEAR, SO IT'S A PERCENT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF HOMES THAT HAVE SOLD. WE CAN SEE THAT SIMCOE AND DUFFERIN, WHICH ARE... I MEAN, THEY WEREN'T ORIGINALLY CONSIDERED PART OF THE SUBURBS, DURHAM, HALTON, YORK ARE KIND OF THE SUBURBS, AND PEEL. SIMCOE AND DUFFERIN ARE SEEING THE BIGGEST INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF SALES. THE IMPORTANT THING TO THINK ABOUT IS CERTAINLY PROPORTIONATELY... AGAIN, THEY HAVE THE BIGGEST PERCENTAGE INCREASE, BUT THOSE AREAS HAVE FAR FEWER SALES THAN THE CITY OF TORONTO. SO IF WE LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF SALES, SIMCOE AND DUFFERIN HAVE ABOUT 1500 MORE SALES THIS YEAR VERSUS LAST YEAR. CITY OF TORONTO IS UP 1,000, BUT PROPORTIONATELY, IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A GREAT STORY. THE CITY OF TORONTO IS ONLY UP 10 percent. THOSE AREAS ARE UP 60 percent. LIKE I SAID, CITY OF TORONTO LOW-RISE IS STILL BUSY. IT'S THE CONDO MARKET THAT HAS TAKEN THE BIG HISTORY FROM THIS EXODUS.

Jeyan says MELISSA, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS MOVEMENT OUT OF TORONTO AND INTO MUNICIPALITIES WILL BOTH CHANGE AND SHAPE THE PROVINCIAL CAPITAL AND THOSE PLACES THAT PEOPLE ARE RESETTLING IN?

The caption changes to "Melissa Alice. Writer. @moneytalksmel."

Melissa says I THINK, AND AGAIN, TO THE POINT THAT DURHAM AND SIMCOE NEVER WERE CONSIDERED PART OF THE SUBURBS, WE'RE ACTUALLY STARTING TO TALK ABOUT THEM AS IF THEY'RE SUBURBS. SO I THINK AS THERE'S MORE OUTFLOW INTO THOSE, WE'LL CALL THEM OUTER, OUTER SUBURBS NOW, THERE'S GOING TO BE A WHOLE CULTURE THAT'S BUILT AROUND THESE YOUNG PROFESSIONALS AND THESE FAMILIES COMING IN AND MAKING THESE ONCE MORE SLEEPY, YOU KNOW, RESORT TOWNS, THEIR OWN. WE SAW A SIMILAR THING, LIKE YOU MIGHT KNOW, IN HAMILTON. WHERE THERE'S A HUGE RESURGENCE OF CULTURE AND ART AND CAFES IN HAMILTON BECAUSE OF THE MINI EXODUS THAT HAPPENED WITH TORONTONIANS LEAVING FOR HAMILTON. SO I THINK THESE OUTER SUBURBS ARE GOING TO VERY MUCH BENEFIT THAT WAY ECONOMICALLY AND ALSO CULTURALLY. HERE IN THE CITY, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A BIT OF... NOT JUST A BRAIN DRAIN BUT ALSO LESS PEOPLE WHO WILL CONTRIBUTE TO OUR LOCAL ECONOMY, AND THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.

Jeyan says MARY, I SEE YOU NODDING YOUR HEAD THERE. HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO SHAPE BOTH TORONTO AND THOSE MUNICIPALITIES THAT PEOPLE WILL BE MOVING TO?

Mary says WELL, I WANT TO ERADICATE THE TERM "EXODUS." IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS. THIS IS... YOU KNOW, CITIES ARE LIVING ORGANISMS. WE'RE LIKE AN... TORONTO IS A VIBRANT CITY. I LOVE THE CHART, JOHN, WITH THE BARS. BECAUSE THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A SEC. I THINK WHAT WE'RE GOING TO UNDERSTAND IS GLOBALLY... TALK TO YOUR COUSIN IN EUROPE. THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER BARRIE IS IN TORONTO OR NEWMARKET IS IN TORONTO. IT'S ALL TORONTO. THIS REGION. AND I THINK MAYBE WHAT THIS IS GOING TO DO IS PROPEL US TO LOOK AT GOVERNANCE ARRANGEMENTS AND FINANCING ARRANGEMENTS THAT BETTER UNDERSTAND US AS A TORONTO REGION. SO EVEN YOU MAY NOT OWN A CONDO DOWNTOWN, THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NO LONGER PART OF TORONTO. IN FACT, YOU'RE STILL PART OF THE TORONTO ECONOMY FOR SURE. AND TELEWORKING MAY ALLOW US TO MORE MATERIALLY MANIFEST THIS TO SAY, I MAY HAVE HAVE MY HOUSE IN NEWMARKET OR UXBRIDGE OR EVEN PETERBOROUGH... I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR IT'S GOING TO GO. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT PART OF THE TORONTO ECONOMY, I ABSOLUTELY AM, AND I'M GOING TO POTENTIALLY STILL PARTICIPATE AND COME INTO THE DOWNTOWN, BUT I AGREE WITH MELISSA, ONE OF THE FRINGE BENEFITS OF THIS THING IS IT'S GOING TO AMP UP AND INTENSIFY OUR INVESTMENTS ON OUR MAIN STREETS, IN OUR NEIGHBOURHOODS, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY'RE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I REALLY FIRMLY BELIEVE YOU CANNOT TAKE A [indiscernible] AND THIS ISN'T GOING TO DO IT. IT'S GOING TO TRANSFORM AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO FILL OUT. AND SO I REALLY WANT "EXODUS." IT'S SUCH A LOADED TERM. I REALLY DON'T THINK THIS IS AN EXODUS.

Jeyan says I WILL ADD ONTO THAT, ALTHOUGH I MOVED TO HAMILTON FIVE YEARS AGO, I PROBABLY SEND DAYS OUT OF THE WEEK IN TORONTO, MORNING TO NIGHT. MELISSA, YOU SPENT A FEW MONTHS AWAY FROM THE URBAN LIFE DURING THE PANDEMIC. WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE FOR YOU FROM THAT KIND OF LIFE THAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY LEAD IN THE CITY?

Melissa says AS SOMEONE WHO IS ALSO A DIEHARD DOWNTOWN TORONTO GIRL, I'VE BEEN HERE FOR 15 YEARS, I MOVED HERE FROM BRAMPTON, FIRST OF ALL, I'D LIKE TO SAY I NEVER THOUGHT THAT I WOULD EVER LIVE SUCH AN EXTENDED TIME... TO ME THAT'S EXTENDED... UP NORTH. WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A WEEKEND TRIP WITH MY FIANCE TURNED INTO ONE WEEK, THEN TURNED INTO TWO WEEKS, AND THEN WE JUST DECIDED TO SPEND ENTIRE ISOLATION UP IN BLUE MOUNTAIN NEAR COLLINGWOOD. AND THE QUIET, THE NATURE, YET STILL ACCESS TO AMENITIES, NOT TO MENTION, YOU KNOW, BEING RIGHT ON GEORGIAN BAY, IT JUST REALLY OPENED MY EYES TO THE FACT THAT YOU CAN HAVE A CAREER AND YOU CAN GROW YOUR CAREER AND YOUR BUSINESS WHILE STILL ALSO HAVING THAT 24-7 COTTAGE LIFE LIFESTYLE. THAT WAS EXTREMELY EYE OPENING TO ME AND IT TURNED ME INTO A SMALL TOWN OUTER SUBURB CONVERT.

Jeyan says I'M CURIOUS, ALL OF YOU ARE JOINING US FROM TORONTO. HAVE YOU, MARY AND JOHN, MAYBE CONSIDERED MOVING OUT AND KIND OF LOOKING FOR THAT SIMPLE LIFE?

Mary says THE ANSWER IS BEHIND YOU.

The caption changes to "John Pasalis, @JohnPasalis."

John says SURE. I GREW UP ON 10 ACRES, SO I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH RURAL AND OUTER SUBURBS LIFE AND, NO, CERTAINLY I'M A DOWNTOWN PERSON. I DIDN'T EVEN THINK TWICE ABOUT LEAVING THE CITY. IT'S JUST TOO... I GET IT, I VALUE THE LIFE, WALKABILITY, ALL THE THINGS THAT MAKE A CITY GREAT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE FOR ME PERSONALLY.

Jeyan says WITH THAT, JOHN, WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT COTTAGES. I WANT TO ASK YOU, THERE'S BEEN A BIT OF A SURGE IN COTTAGE PURCHASES IN RECENT MONTHS. IS THERE ANY ADVICE FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE LOOKING INTO THAT OR HAVE ALREADY PURCHASED THAT? DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GETTING THEMSELVES INVOLVED IN THERE?

John says THE COTTAGE BOOM IS INTERESTING. THERE'S DEFINITELY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING AT MAKING THAT THEIR PRINCIPAL RESIDENCE. YOU KNOW, YOU REALLY, REALLY NEED TO BE CAUTIOUS IF YOU'VE NEVER LIVED OUT THAT FAR PERMANENTLY. AGAIN, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE IN COTTAGE COUNTRY IN THE WINTER. INTERNET ACCESS GENERALLY ISN'T GREAT. SO IT'S A REALLY, REALLY BIG SHIFT. I THINK THE SMART PEOPLE ARE PROBABLY TRYING IT OUT AND MAYBE MOVING TO A COTTAGE FOR TWO OR THREE MONTHS TO TRY THAT LIFESTYLE. BUT, AGAIN, I THINK THERE'S A LOT TO CONSIDER BEFORE MAKING THAT KIND OF COTTAGE LIFESTYLE YOUR PERMANENT LIFESTYLE. IT'S DEFINITELY A BIG SHIFT.

Jeyan says WELL, ACCORDING...

Mary says CAN I JUMP IN AND SAY I LIVED RURAL FOR 10 YEARS AND I'M WITH MELISSA. THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE PLACE, RIGHT? AND WE HAVE TO INVEST IN THE QUALITY OF PLACES, WHETHER IT'S IN PARKDALE OR IT'S IN THE NORTH END OF WINNIPEG OR IT'S IN GREY COUNTY OR SIMCOE COUNTY OR LANARK COUNTY. IT'S EITHER/OR. OUR URBAN LIFE AND OUR RURAL LIFE ARE COMPLETELY LOCKED AND DEPENDENT ON ONE ANOTHER FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. I THINK THE PANDEMIC INCENTIVIZES US TO INVEST IN OTHER PLACES, THEN WE HAVE MORE CHOICE. I JUST WOULD NOT EQUATE THAT WITH ABANDONING THE CITY. I DO NOT THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN.

Jeyan says LET'S TALK ABOUT IT. OBVIOUSLY WE'RE IN A PANDEMIC AND THAT'S KIND OF SHIFTED THE WAY PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THE CITY. ACCORDING TO NANOS RESEARCH POLLING THAT WAS DONE THIS PAST JULY FOR THE ONTARIO REAL ESTATE ASSOCIATION, SINCE COVID-19 HIT...

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Dreaming of greener pastures since COVID-19 hit."

Jeyan reads data from the slate and says
61 percent AGREE OR SOMEWHAT AGREE THEIR INTEREST IN SUBURBAN RURAL HOUSING HAS INCREASED. 37 percent ARE MORE DRAWN TO DOWNTOWN LIVING AND OTHERS ARE INTERESTED IN OWNING A HOME. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOTIVATION FOR WHY PEOPLE MIGHT BE LOOKING FOR THAT SUBURBAN LIFESTYLE?

Melissa says I THINK A BIG PART OF IT COMES DOWN TO STAGE OF LIFE. AGAIN, I'M GOING TO GET MARRIED NEXT YEAR, A FAMILY MIGHT BE ON THE TABLE. SO IT'S A QUESTION OF WHERE DO I WANT TO RAISE AND GROW MY FAMILY AND WHAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT? WITH THE CULTURAL SHIFT WE'RE SEEING IN TORONTO, THAT MIGHT TAKE A LONG TIME TO RECOVER. DO I CONTINUE TO WANT TO START AND GROW A FAMILY DOWNTOWN RATHER THAN HAVE THAT QUALITY OF LIFE OUTSIDE OF THE CITY, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT I KNOW THAT, NUMBER ONE, TELECOMMUTING IS A THING AND IT'S NOT GOING ANYWHERE. AND NUMBER TWO, THERE IS BEING INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTED IN MAKING, I GUESS, THE OUTER OUTER SUBURBS MORE COMMUTABLE. AND I THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN. AS LONG AS THAT CONTINUES TO HAPPEN, I THINK THAT'S A BIG DRIVER FOR THE SENTIMENT OF MOVING INTO THE RURAL AND SUBURBAN AREAS.

Jeyan says JOHN, WE'RE HEADING INTO POTENTIALLY A SECOND WAVE WITH THIS PANDEMIC. DOES THAT PUSH THINGS INTO THE DIRECTION OF A MOVEMENT OUT OF TORONTO... I DIDN'T SAY "EXODUS." THERE, I SAID MOVEMENT. IF THERE'S A MOVEMENT OUT THERE, WILL THAT HELP THINGS?

The caption changes to "John Pasalis. Move Smartly."

John says POTENTIALLY WE MIGHT SEE THAT. THE FIRST WAVE OF PEOPLE THAT MOVED STARTED MOVING OUT OF THE CITY... WE SAW IT EVEN IN OUR OFFICE, PEOPLE SELLING THEIR DOWNTOWN HOMES, MOVING OUT. MOST OF THESE PEOPLE PLANNED TO MOVE OR HAD IT IN THE WORKS, AND WORKING FROM HOME JUST ALLOWED THEM TO SPEED UP THOSE PLANS. THE SECOND WAVE OF PEOPLE THAT WE'RE HEARING FROM NOW, YOU KNOW, ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST ASKING MORE, YOU KNOW, PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR LIFE, EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS. WHAT DO THEY WANT? WHERE DO THEY WANT TO LIVE? DO THEY WANT TO DOWNSIZE THE MORTGAGE? DO THEY WANT A SIMPLER LIFESTYLE? AND I DO THINK PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO ASK THEMSELVES THESE QUESTIONS. AS LONG AS THE COVID LOCKDOWN GOES ON, YOU MIGHT START TO SEE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO JUST DOWN SIZE AND WANT A SIMPLER WAY OF LIFE. AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A MASS SORT OF EXODUS OUT OF THE CITY. I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A FEW PEOPLE WHO MAYBE JUST PREFER THAT LIFESTYLE. AND I THINK WE'LL PROBABLY START TO SEE A FEW MORE PEOPLE MOVING OUT OF LOW-RISE HOMES DOWNTOWN STILL INTO THESE OUTER SUBURBS.

Jeyan says MARY, IT'S A PRIVILEGE, OF COURSE, TO WORK FROM HOME. HOW DO YOU THINK BEING ABLE TO DO IT REMOTELY FACTORS INTO THIS EQUATION?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Mary says WELL, JUST REMEMBER, THERE ARE A GAZILLION PEOPLE WHO AREN'T WORKING FROM HOME. THEY GO TO WORK. THEY GET ON TRANSIT. THEY'RE PROVIDING ESSENTIAL SERVICES. AND THEY MAY NOT HAVE A HOME FROM WHICH TO WORK, THEY MAY BE HOMELESS OR INADEQUATELY HOUSED. I WANT TO ADD IT'S NOT ALL ROSY WORKING FROM HOME. THE POINT THAT MELISSA IS MAKING, WHICH IS IMPORTANT, IS IF WE DO ACTUALLY FIND THAT WE INTENSIFY RURAL AREAS AND SUBURBS, WE'VE GOT TO REALLY THINK HARD WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT IS. WE DON'T WANT TO BE INCREASING PEOPLE SPENDING MORE TIME IN THEIR CARS. IT'S GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE I THINK FOR PLANNERS AND FOR REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS... AND THEY'VE ALREADY STARTED TO DO THIS AND THIS SHOULD BE ACCELERATED BY COVID... TO INVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE IN SUBURBS SO THEY CAN BE WALKABLE TOO. AND I THINK BACK TO OUR MAIN STREET. MAIN STREETS NEED TO HOUSE A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS, NOT JUST STORES BUT SERVICES AND PLACES TO WORK FROM AND PLACES TO GET SOME CULTURE AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS. SO I WANT US TO BE COGNIZANT THAT THE WHOLE WORLD IS NOT WORKING FROM HOME. WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO FIND WAYS TO BE SAFELY MOBILE AND EXERCISE CHOICES SAFELY SO THAT WE PROTECT OURSELVES. BECAUSE WE'RE IN THIS FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER YEAR AND WHO KNOWS WHAT THE NEXT CHALLENGE WILL BE AHEAD? THAT'S PART OF RESILIENCE, PART OF HOW TO ADAPT. SO IT'S ALL ABOUT CHOICES AND I THINK WE NEED TO CHALLENGE OURSELVES TO EVOLVE SAFELY INTO THE NEW CHALLENGE AND NOT I'M GOING TO WORK FROM HOME. I THINK WE NEED TO CHANGE WHICH IS WHAT THE SITUATION IS FORCING US TO DO.

Jeyan says JOHN, WITH THE PANDEMIC, HOW MUCH OF A DENT ON THE COST OF RENT AND REAL ESTATE COULD WE SEE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A YEAR DOWN THE LINE OR JUST A FEW MONTHS? HAVE WE SEEN DENTS IN RENTS AND THE COST OF CONDOS? I IMAGINE THAT IS A HUGE PLAYER IN THIS.

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John says SO THE ONLY SEGMENT OF THE REAL ESTATE MARKET WHERE WE'VE SEEN DECLINES ARE RENTS. WE HAVE NOT SEEN DECLINES IN CONDO PRICES. WE HAVEN'T SEEN DECLINES IN LOW-RISE PRICES. LIKE I SAID, DOWNTOWN RENTS FOR CONDOMINIUMS ARE DOWN ABOUT 20 percent OVER LAST YEAR. A LOT OF BIG PURPOSE-BUILT RENTAL LANDLORDS HAVE A LOT OF VACANCIES AND ARE PROVIDING A LOT OF INCENTIVES. SO RENTS ARE DEFINITELY DOWN, ESPECIALLY THE CLOSER YOU ARE TO THE DOWNTOWN CORE, WE'RE SEEING A STEEP DECLINE FOR SURE.

Jeyan says TALK TO US ABOUT THE CONDO MARKET. THIS IS A HUGE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, A BIG IMPACT IN TERMS OF FROM THE PRE-CONSTRUCTION ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL BUYING AND RESELLING. HOW HAS THAT FLOW CHANGED WITH THE PANDEMIC?

John says THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONE SEGMENT THAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE OVERLOOKING. YOU KNOW, A WEAKENING CONDO MARKET DOWNTOWN IS NOT GREAT. AND HOW LONG THIS CONTINUES IS AGAIN A FUNCTION OF THE HEALTH RISKS. BUT IF RENTS DECLINE, IF CONDO PRICES DECLINE, THAT'S NOT A GREAT THING BECAUSE OUR ENTIRE PRE-CONSTRUCTION PIPELINE IS BASED ON THIS IDEA OF THAT CONDO PRICES WILL KEEP GOING UP. SO IF CONDO PRICES FALL A LITTLE BIT, ESPECIALLY DOWNTOWN, THEN IT DEFINITELY PRESENTS A LOT OF RISK BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE PAID SIGNIFICANTLY HIGH PRICES FOR PRE-CONSTRUCTION CONDOMINIUMS. AND IF WE LOOK AT A LOT OF CITIES WHERE CONDOS HAVE FAILED IN THE PAST, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BECAUSE RESALE PRICES FELL AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN THE PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THOSE PRE-CONSTRUCTION CONDOS, THEY WEREN'T WORTH WHAT THEY PAID FOR THEM AND THEY JUST STOP MAKING THEIR DEPOSITS. I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP AN EYE ON THESE TRENDS IN THE CONDO MARKET. IT'S NOT JUST THAT RENTS ARE DOWN, IT'S GOING TO HAVE A VERY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON OUR ECONOMY IN THE FUTURE.

Jeyan says MELISSA, I THINK OUR CULTURE PUTS A LOT OF VALUE ON BUYING REAL ESTATE VERSUS RENTING. DO YOU THINK THIS WOULD HELP KIND OF RE-EVALUATE, YOU KNOW, HOW WE START THINKING ABOUT THAT, WHETHER, YOU KNOW, OUR CURRENT SYSTEM NEEDS A LITTLE BIT OF A SHAKEUP? DO WE NEED TO MAYBE FOCUS ON... YOU KNOW, RENTING IS OKAY VERSUS GETTING INTO THE MARKET AND GETTING A HOUSE SO YOU CAN KIND OF BUILD YOUR PORTFOLIO THAT WAY?

Melissa says YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK JUST OVERALL, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT NOT CALL IT AN EXODUS, BUT THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC, I THINK WE REACHED A TIPPING POINT OF A LOT OF URBAN PLANNING THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PERHAPS CRITICIZING FOR A LONG TIME ABOUT HOW UNSUSTAINABLE IT IS, HOW IT'S NOT BUILT FOR DIFFERENT KINDS OF FAMILIES. AND HAVING SAID ALL THAT NOW, I THINK EVERYBODY... A LOT OF PEOPLE COLLECTIVELY WERE TAKING A STEP BACK AND LOOKING AT OUR REAL ESTATE HABITS, PATTERNS, AND OUR GOALS. AND WE'RE A YOUNG COUNTRY. WE'RE A YOUNG CITY. IN PARIS, YOU KNOW, STOCKHOLM, LONDON, THOSE ARE CITIES OF RENTERS, RIGHT? THERE'S JUST NO MORE SPACE TO BUILD UNLESS YOU GO OUT IN THE SUBURBS. SO RENTING IS A PERFECTLY FINE CULTURALLY ACCEPTED WAY OF LIFE. IN FACT, MOST PEOPLE RENT UNLESS YOU HAVE AN APARTMENT THAT WAS PASSED DOWN TO YOU BY AN UNCLE. AND SO EVENTUALLY OVER TIME WE'RE GOING TO START SEEING THE SAME ATTITUDES, THE SAME CULTURAL BEHAVIOURS AND MENTALITY, AND I THINK CORONAVIRUS MIGHT HAVE POSSIBLY ACCELERATED THAT.

Jeyan says JOHN, I'M CURIOUS, YOU KNOW, AS WE TALK ABOUT REAL ESTATE BEING AN INVESTMENT VEHICLE, IS THERE ANY SORT OF SHIFT THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT POLICIES WITHIN THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM?

John says YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I THINK... CERTAINLY. I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IN THE GTA IS THAT A LOT OF THE PRE-CONSTRUCTION HOUSING HAS REALLY BEEN FUELED BY INVESTORS, AND THIS AT THE END OF THE DAY HAS REALLY JUST... I MEAN, IT'S PUSHED PRICES UP MORE THAN THEY SHOULD BE BECAUSE INVESTORS PAY MORE THAN END USERS AND THAT'S WHY PRE-CONSTRUCTION CONDOS ARE MORE EXPENSIVE. AND REALLY IT'S JUST RESULTED IN THE TYPE OF SUPPLY THAT INVESTORS WANT, WHICH ARE MICRO CONDOS, THAT ARE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO FIT WHAT WE WANT. SO THERE ARE A LOT OF POLICIES THAT OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD BE PUTTING IN PLACE THAT KIND OF PRIORITIZES HOUSING AS A PLACE TO LIVE, RATHER THAN AS A FINANCIAL ASSET THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE SPECULATING ON. AND THE TYPE OF THINGS THEY COULD DO... THERE'S QUITE A FEW... BUT I THINK THE FIRST IS RECOGNIZING THAT THEY SHOULD BE PRIORITIZING HOMES AS A PLACE TO LIVE BUT NOT AS A SPECULATIVE INVESTMENT.

Jeyan says MARY, IF THIS PANDEMIC COULD BE THE CATALYST TO MAKE THE CITY OF TORONTO AND ITS HOUSING PROSPECTS BETTER, WHAT WOULD YOU WANT TO SEE TRANSFORMED?

Mary says WELL, WHAT JOHN IS TALKING ABOUT IS ENDING THE FINANCIALIZATION OF HOUSING AND IT'S A CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THING THAT [indiscernible] ACROSS THE COUNTRY, SHE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. YOU NEED TO TAKE THAT ELEMENT OUT OF IT. I THINK IT'S NOT ONLY POLICY INITIATIVES FROM THE FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS THAT'S GOING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. I THINK WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE... WE HAD A STRUGGLE... AGAIN, PRE-COVID, A LOT OF THIS STRUGGLE WAS BEFORE COVID. BEFORE COVID WE DIDN'T HAVE THE MIX OF SUPPLY IN CHOICES IN HOUSING. THE MARKET WAS GENERALLY... AND IT IS EXACTLY WHAT JOHN WAS SUGGESTING ABOUT SPECULATION... BUT IT WAS ONLY PROVIDING HIGH-END RESIDENTIAL. WE NEED A MIX. AND WE NEED PURPOSE-BUILT RENTAL. AND MAYBE WHAT WILL HAPPEN THROUGH THIS IS WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE EMERGENCE OF BUILDINGS... I THINK WE'RE ALREADY STARTING TO SEE THIS. SOME COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS MAY HAVE RESIDENTIAL. THERE'S A CONDO BEING BUILT BEHIND ME THAT IS GOING TO BE PURPOSE-BUILT RENTAL. I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH MELISSA THAT WE NEED TO DROP THAT NOTION THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU CAN MOVE UP ON A HOME, THAT MEANS WE NEED NEW TOOLS TO BUILD EQUITY. MOST PEOPLE LIKE ME TEND TO BE LAZY ABOUT THIS AND WE USE THE EQUITY IN OUR HOME AS A RETIREMENT PLAN. IF YOU DON'T OWN YOUR OWN HOME, YOU NEED A PATH THAT ALLOWS YOU TO BUILD EQUITY WITHOUT INVESTING IN REAL ESTATE. AND IF WE WERE TO ADOPT THAT APPROACH THAT MELISSA IS SUGGESTING, WHICH IS TRUE IN MOST OF THE GREAT CITIES OF THE WORLD WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE AN EXPECTATION TO OWN, THEN WE NEED TENANT PROTECTION AND VARIOUS THINGS. THE LAST THING I'LL SUGGEST IS I THINK WE NEED TO INVEST IN NEIGHBOURHOODS BEING MORE COMPLETE. DOWNTOWN CENTRAL BUSINESSES MAY NEED MORE HOUSING AND WE MAY SEE LIGHT MANUFACTURING RETURN. LIKE HONG KONG. AND THEN A NEIGHBORHOOD BECOMES MORE SELF-SUFFICIENT, HAS MORE AMENITIES, AND YOU'RE MORE RESILIENT. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO IN THE NEIGHBOURHOODS, MAIN STREET, WE NEED TO DO IT IN THE SUBURBS, AND RIGHT SMACK DOWNTOWN AND THE DOWNTOWNS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

The caption changes to "Producer: Patricia Kozicka, @TrishKozicka."

Jeyan says I THINK WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE IT AT THAT, MARY ROWE, MELISSA ALICE, JOHN PASALIS, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT ON THE SHOW.

Watch: Pandemic Exodus and Toronto's Path Forward