Transcript: Green Party of Canada Leadership Debate, Part 1 | Jun 23, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit and shirt, and a checked blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Green Party of Canada leadership debate. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE GREEN PARTY OF CANADA HAS BEEN AROUND FOR ALMOST FOUR DECADES, BUT IT WAS ONLY UNDER OUTGOING LEADER ELIZABETH MAY THAT IT ELECTED A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT. THEY NOW HAVE A CAUCUS OF THREE, AND SINCE MS. MAY IS STEPPING ASIDE AS LEADER, THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT CAN KEEP, AND BUILD ON, THE GAINS UNDER HER LEADERSHIP. THEY HAVE NO SHORTAGE OF CONTENDERS. THERE ARE TEN CANDIDATES VYING TO TAKE THE REINS. IN THE INTERESTS OF ACTUALLY HEARING FROM EACH PROPERLY, WE'VE SPLIT THIS INTO TWO DEBATES: 5 CONTENDERS TONIGHT, 5 TOMORROW. WITH THAT, WE WELCOME IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER: IN CLEMENTSPORT, NOVA SCOTIA: JUDY GREEN, A CANADIAN ARMED FORCES VETERAN AND THE PARTY'S CANDIDATE IN WEST NOVA IN LAST YEAR'S FEDERAL ELECTION...

Judy is in her forties, with long wavy gray hair. She's wearing glasses and a pink blouse.

Steve continues IN VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA: AMITA KUTTNER, AN ASTROPHYSICIST AND THE PARTY'S CRITIC FOR SCIENCE AND INNOVATION FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS...

Amita is in her thirties, with short, side-parted brown hair. She's wearing a blue shirt.

Steve continues IN SAANICH, BRITISH COLUMBIA: DAVID MERNER, LAWYER AND THE GREEN CANDIDATE LAST YEAR IN ESQUIMALT-SAANICH-SOOKE...

David is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short graying brown hair. He's wearing a black suit and a white shirt.

Steve continues IN WINNIPEG, MANITOBA: GLEN MURRAY, FORMER MAYOR OF WINNIPEG, AND A FORMER ONTARIO MINISTER OF THE ENVIRONMENT, AMONG OTHER PORTFOLIOS...

Glen is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a checkered blue shirt.

Steve continues AND HERE IN ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY: ANNAMIE PAUL, LAWYER, SOCIAL ENTREPRENEUR, AND THE GREEN CANDIDATE IN TORONTO CENTRE IN LAST YEAR'S ELECTION...

Annamie is in her thirties, shaven-headed. She's wearing a dark blue shirt.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME HALF OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING FOR THE LEADERSHIP OF THE GREEN PARTY OF CANADA, AND I WANT TO START JUST BY SAYING, WE'RE OBVIOUSLY DISPENSING WITH SORT OF OFFICIAL DEBATE RULES, THERE'S NO OPENING STATEMENTS OR THAT, WE'RE GOING TO DIVE RIGHT INTO IT AND WE'LL DO THE BEST WE CAN TO MAKE SURE EVERYBODY GETS EQUAL TIME TONIGHT. LET ME PUT THIS PREMISE. WHEN PEOPLE THINK NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF CANADA, LIBERAL PARTY OF CANADA, OR CONSERVATIVE PARTY OF CANADA, THEY HAVE AN IDEA WHERE THOSE PARTIES ARE ON THE SPECTRUM AND SOME SENSE OF WHO PEOPLE ARE VOTING WHEN THEY VOTE. WHERE DO YOU SEE THE GREEN PARTY FITTING INTO THAT POLITICAL SPECTRUM. WE KNOW WHAT IT'S BEEN UNDER ELIZABETH MAY. WE WANT TO KNOW HOW DIFFERENT YOU WOULD MAKE THE PARTY IF YOU WERE IN CHARGE. JUDY GREEN, START US OFF, PLEASE.

The caption changes to "Judy Green, @RAWnGreen."

Judy says AWESOME. THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION. WE ALSO GET ASKED THAT AND I THINK WE HAVE EVOLVED PAST A SIMPLE LEFT OR RIGHT. THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED AN AXIAL SHIFT WHICH ACTUALLY TAKES INTO ACCOUNT ISSUES OF SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY AND HOW WELL OUR PEOPLE ARE DOING. IT FITS WELL INTO THE WELLNESS ECONOMY. AND I REALLY LIKE THAT APPROACH MUCH BETTER THAN A SIMPLE LEFT OR RIGHT BECAUSE REALLY THE GREEN PARTY IS ABOUT FINDING THE BEST SOLUTION FOR THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE, AND THAT SOLUTION MAY COME FROM ANYWHERE ALONG THAT SPECTRUM. WE REALLY HAVE TO BE SOLUTION-FOCUSED AND LONG-TERM THINKERS IN TERMS OF REALLY FIXING THE PROBLEMS, NOT JUST PUTTING BAND-AIDS ON THEM.

Steve says AMITA, HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER THAT?

The caption changes to "Amita Kuttner, @AmitaKuttner."

Amita says I DEFINITELY THINK I'M LEFT AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE PARTY LEFT. IN TERMS OF POLICY, I THINK WHAT WE'RE BRINGING FORWARD IS SOMETHING ENTIRELY NEW, SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT UP ACROSS THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY NOW, EVEN IN EUROPE, CIRCULAR ECONOMIES AND STUFF LIKE THAT. SO IT'S GOING TO BE UP TO A CONVERSATION WITH EVERY COMMUNITY TO SEE HOW THAT DEFINITION WORKS ON THEIR POLITICAL SPECTRUM, WHICH I THINK NOW HAS MORE DIMENSIONS THAN JUST TWO.

Steve says DAVID?

The caption changes to "David Merner, @DavidMerner."

David says I SEE US AS GREENS WHO ARE THE MOST PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN CANADA. WE'VE FOUGHT INEQUALITY, IT'S IN OUR DNA. WE WERE THE FIRST PARTY TO ENDORSE EQUAL MARRIAGE. WE'RE THE FIRST PARTY TO HAVE A SERIOUS GUARANTEED LIVABLE INCOME PROGRAMME TO ELIMINATE POVERTY IN CANADA. SO WE'RE VERY PROGRESSIVE. BUT WE'RE ALSO FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE. WE COST EVERY PROMISE WE MAKE. WE TELL PEOPLE HOW WE'RE GOING TO PAY FOR IT. SO WE COMBINE THE BEST OF ALL WORLDS. I DON'T SEE US AS JUST BEING LEFT OR RIGHT. I SEE US AS LOOKING AT POLICY THAT'S DEEPLY TRANSFORMATIVE. SOLUTIONS THAT WORK FOR CANADIANS. IT'S NOT ABOUT LEFT OR RIGHT FOR US.

Steve says ANNAMIE?

The caption changes to "Annamie Paul, @AnnamiePaul."

Annamie says THANK YOU, STEVE AND, YOU KNOW, WELCOME EVERYONE TO MY HOMETOWN, ONTARIO, AND FIRST OF ALL I WANTED TO GIVE THOSE GREETINGS. I LOVE GETTING ASKED THIS QUESTION, STEVE, BECAUSE THE REASONS ARE VERY CLEAR TO ME AND I BELIEVE PARTICULARLY BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC WHERE CANADIANS ARE GOING TO BE ASKING THEMSELVES THAT QUESTION AND LOOKING AT OUR PARTY WITH FRESH EYES, AND WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO SEE IS A PARTY THAT IS EXTREMELY PROGRESSIVE. WE ARE VERY PROGRESSIVE. WE ARE INTERESTED IN CREATING A MORE JUST AND SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY. WE'RE ALSO EXTREMELY COLLABORATIVE. AND CANADIANS HAVE SEEN HOW IMPORTANT THAT'S BEEN IN TERMS OF THE PANDEMIC AND GETTING THINGS DONE QUICKLY AND GETTING RELIEF TO PEOPLE, AND SO LOOKING AT A PARTY THAT HAS THAT AS ITS MODUS OPERANDI, THAT REALLY BELIEVES IN THAT AND WANTS TO REINFORCE THAT THROUGHOUT OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM I THINK IS ABSOLUTELY SOMETHING THAT SETS US APART. AND THE THING THAT I'M MOST EXCITED ABOUT AND WE TALK ABOUT A LOT IN OUR CAMPAIGN IS DARING. WE ARE THE PARTY THAT PUSHES THE DISCUSSION FORWARD. WE ARE THE PARTY THAT INTRODUCES THOSE NEW IDEAS INTO THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE, AND, YOU KNOW, WE NEED THAT MORE THAN EVER NOW. WE NEED THAT MORE THAN EVER. AND IF CANADIANS WANT TO SEE MORE OF THAT, THEN THEY'LL BE LOOKING AT US AND I THINK THAT REALLY SETS US APART.

Steve says GLEN MURRAY, WHERE ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM DO YOU SEE THE GLEN MURRAY-LED GREEN PARTY, LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY?

The caption changes to "Glen Murray, @Glen4Climate."

Glen says WELL, I THINK WE STAND FROM GREEN CAPITALISTS, PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE IN THE TOM RAND KIND OF POLITICAL WORLD, THE TOBY HEATHS, ECO SOCIALISTS AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. WHAT DIFFERENTIATES US ISN'T A LEFT-RIGHT SPLIT. WE'RE THE ONLY PARTY THAT TOTALLY EMBRACES A CIRCULAR ECONOMY, AN ECONOMY WHICH REDUCES AND REPURPOSES MATERIALS THAT IS COMPLETELY COMMITTED TO RENEWABLES. IT'S NOT JUST RECYCLING FOR US OR CLEAN ENERGY, IT'S A COMPLETE SHIFT FROM AN ECONOMY BUILT ON RESOURCE EXTRACTION TO ONE BUILT ON RECOVERY AND THE INCLUSION AND PRIORITY OF WELLNESS AS THE OUTCOME, AND THAT MAKES US DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER PARTIES.

Steve says LET'S DIVE DEEPER ON THAT...

Annamie says STEVE, IF I COULD JUST JUMP IN FOR A SECOND. I'M SORRY. IT'S THE OBVIOUS SAYING AND SOMETIMES GREENS FORGET IT BECAUSE IT'S SO OBVIOUS TO US. BUT WHAT SETS US APART FROM ALL OF THE OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IS OUR COMMITMENT TO THE CLIMATE AND OUR COMMITMENT TO TARGETS THAT CORRESPOND WITH THE SCIENCE. WE ARE THE ONLY PARTY IN CANADA THAT HAS SET TARGETS THAT CORRESPOND TO WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD WE NEED TO REACH IF WE'RE GOING TO AVOID THE WORST IMPACTS OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE THAT WE'RE SEEING.

Steve says LET'S DIVE DEEPER ON THAT RIGHT NOW. LET ME PUT A QUESTION TO ALL OF YOU RIGHT NOW AND, AMITA, WHY DON'T WE GET YOU TO START ON THIS ONE. THE SKIES OF OUR MAJOR CITIES RIGHT NOW ARE REMARKABLY POLLUTION-FREE THESE DAYS. WE KNOW THIS. WE CAN SEE IT, WE FEEL IT, AND THERE'S EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP. THAT'S PERHAPS ONE OF THE VERY FEW GOOD THINGS THAT THIS PANDEMIC HAS DELIVERED. BUT HOW DO WE TAKE THAT POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT AND RUN WITH IT WHEN SAFETY SUGGESTS... AND HERE'S WHAT I'M GETTING AT HERE... MORE PEOPLE MAY DRIVE THEIR CARS IN FUTURE BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID TO GET ON TRANSIT. MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE USING SINGLE-USE PLASTIC BECAUSE WHEN THEY BRING THEIR REUSABLE BAGS TO THE SUPERMARKET, THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE THEM ANYMORE, THEY GET HANDED PLASTIC BAGS FOR FEAR OF SPREADING THE VIRUS. HOW DO WE TAKE THIS MOMENT IN TIME AND RUN WITH IT. AMITA, YOU FIRST?

The caption changes to "To watch both Green Party of Canada debates go to: tvo.org or youtube.com/theagenda."

Amita says THANK YOU, STEVE. IT'S SO IMPORTANT WE EMBRACE THIS MOMENT BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN HOW PRECARIOUS SO MANY PEOPLE'S LIVES ARE AND HOW MUCH JUST A LITTLE SHIFT CAN ACTUALLY SEND EVERYBODY OVER THE EDGE AND THUS THAT NEED FOR ABSOLUTE TRANSFORMATION OF OUR ECONOMY, OUR SOCIETY, TO A PLACE WHERE WE REALLY CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER, IS NECESSARY. BUT WHAT I FIND IS INTERESTING ABOUT THOSE EXACT THINGS, SO THE PLASTIC BAGS AND EVEN THE REDUCTION IN POLLUTION, IT'S SHOWN US ON THE POLLUTION SIDE HOW CLEAN IT CAN BECOME QUICKLY, BUT THOSE THINGS ARE ALSO SMALL. WE HAVEN'T ACTUALLY SEEN A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN OUR EMISSIONS ACROSS THE PLANET, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT'S GOING TO BE DRIVING DISASTER. SO WE NEED TO USE THIS MOMENT WHEN EVERYONE SEES HOW OUR LIVES HAVE BECOME SOMEWHAT DYSTOPIAN TO BRING FORWARD THAT CONCEPT OF A FUTURE WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY BRING ABOUT THE CHANGE NECESSARY TO CONFRONT CLIMATE CHANGE AND ALSO BRING EVERYBODY INTO A MORE JUST, EQUITABLE WAY OF LIVING.

Steve says DAVID, HOW ABOUT YOU NEXT?

David says YEAH, I'D JUST LIKE TO PICK UP ON AMITA'S ANSWER. RIGHT WHEN THEY SAY WE ARE AT THE RIGHT TIME FOR DEEP, TRANSFORMATIONAL SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEMS WE FACE AND WE NEED TO SEIZE THE MOMENT. PEOPLE ARE CALLING OUT FOR THIS CHANGE. WHAT THEY GET FROM THE OLD-LINE PARTIES ARE INCREMENTAL STEPS, SMALL CHANGE. WE'RE A PARTY THAT'S REALLY DEEPLY BASED IN EVIDENCE. YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE THE NUMBER OF ENGINEERS AND SCIENTISTS, EVEN ON THIS PANEL THAT WE HAVE. SO LET'S TAKE THE EVIDENCE-BASED SOLUTIONS. WE'RE NOW LISTENING TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH DOCTORS. WE NEVER USED TO. LET'S LISTEN TO THE CLIMATE SCIENTISTS. LET'S LISTEN TO THE EXPERTS WHO SAY WE CAN MAKE DEEP CHANGE IN OUR SOCIETY, IN OUR ECONOMY, IN HOW OUR GOVERNMENT WORKS, HOW OUR SOCIAL PROGRAMS WORK. THE CANADIAN EMERGENCY RESPONSE BENEFIT IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE. IT'S NOT WORKING VERY WELL FOR EVERYBODY. BRING IN THE GUARANTEED LIVABLE INCOME, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT CAN WORK. WE'VE SEEN THE PILOT PROJECTS. SO I AGREE. THIS IS A TIME FOR DEEP CHANGE, AND THE GREENS, ONE THING THAT DISTINGUISHES US IS WE'VE ALWAYS ADVOCATED CHANGE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION AND SEVEN GENERATIONS DOWN THE WORLD BASED ON EVIDENCE. AND I THINK THAT'S A REALLY COMPELLING OFFER TO CANADIANS, AND ALSO AROUND THE WORLD. WE CAN BUILD SOMETHING NEW, IF WE JUST LISTEN TO SOME OF THE LEADING EDGE GREEN PARTY POLICIES.

Steve says GLEN MURRAY, HOW DO WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MOMENT?

Glen says I THINK WE... WE HAVE TO DO NEW THINGS BUT WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO WHAT WAS WORKING. ONTARIO, WHERE YOU'RE SITTING, STEVE, JUST WAS PROBABLY BREAKING ABOUT A 20 percent REDUCTION IN GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS NOT OVER 2005 BUT OVER 1990, WITH CAP AND TRADE AND THE CLOSURE OF COAL PLANTS. WE'RE STILL HAVING PROBLEMS. WE'RE HAVING PROBLEMS WORKING THE FEDERAL CARBON TAX, IT'S A JOKE. YOU KNOW, WITH ONTARIO'S EV PROGRAMMES AND QUEBEC'S WERE EITHER STALLED OR CANCELLED, WE JUMPED 15 MEGATONNES IN ONE YEAR. WE NEED TO GET PEOPLE ELECTED WHO KNOW HOW TO DESIGN THESE PROGRAMS QUICKLY AND GET THEM BACK ON TRACK. WE ARE GOING SO QUICKLY IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, IT'S NOT FUNNY. WE HAVE TO BE... WE HAVE 8 YEARS TO STABILIZE OUR CLIMATE. BRING GHG EMISSIONS DOWN. FORTUNATELY THAT GIVES US, IF WE DO THE CIRCULAR ECONOMY MODEL WHICH CIRCULAR ECONOMY IS A COMMITMENT TO ZERO EMISSIONS AND ZERO WASTE, WE CAN GET THERE. BUT CANADA HAS GONE IN THE LAST THREE YEARS FROM BEING A MAJOR LEADER IN THE WORLD TO BEING A GLOBAL LAGGARD. AND ONLY THE GREENS, AS MY COLLEAGUES HAVE ALL BEEN SAYING, THE ONLY PARTY THAT GETS THIS ANYMORE AND IS COMMITTED TO IT.

Steve says JUDY, TO YOU NEXT.

Judy says I AGREE WITH MY FELLOW PANELISTS. YOU KNOW, INCREMENTAL CHANGE IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS. WE'RE SEEING WITH COVID-19 THAT WE'RE ONLY GETTING SMALL REDUCTIONS AND THEY'RE ONLY TEMPORARY IN CO2 EMISSIONS. WE NEED TO GO AFTER THOSE BIG EMITTERS. WE HAVE TO... I MEAN, THIS IS WHAT GOT ME INTO POLITICS IN THE LAST ELECTION IS THAT I RECOGNIZED THAT WE HAVE TO USE POLITICAL WILL TO ENFORCE REGULATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO HELP US MEET THESE TARGETS. AND THE GREENS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE TARGETS AND A PLAN TO GET THERE, EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY. YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT SEQUESTERING CARBON. IT'S NOT A SINGLE, IT'S NOT A SILVER BULLET, ONE THING THAT'S GOING TO FIX THE ISSUES THAT FACE US. WE HAVE TO BE SEQUESTERING CARBON. WE HAVE TO BE USING REGENERATIVE TECHNIQUES IN FARMING. WE NEED TO BE REALLY... LIKE, RESHAPING OUR FORESTRY. IT'S NOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE FIBRE THAT COMES OFF THE LAND, IT'S ABOUT HOW MUCH THAT VALUE THOSE FORESTRY AREAS ARE... OR FORESTED AREAS ARE SEQUESTERING CARBON. WE SIMPLY CANNOT AFFORD TO RELEASE INTO THE ATMOSPHERE RIGHT NOW. SO IT IS A BROAD SPECTRUM. I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE GREEN PARTY PLATFORM IS THAT WE HAVE SOLUTIONS FOR EVERYTHING ACROSS THE BOARD, AND IT'S NOT JUST A SINGLE ISSUE. SO WE CAN DO IT. WE HAVE A PLAN. WE JUST NEED TO GET INTO PARLIAMENT.

Steve says ANNAMIE, LET'S GET YOU ON THIS ONE.

Annamie says YOU KNOW, IT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION AND WE MIGHT NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THIS FOR A LONG TIME. I JUST HEARD LAST NIGHT FROM SOME GREENS THAT I WAS SPEAKING TO, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID... THAT ARE IN THEIR 60s AND 70s THAT THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN A MOMENT LIKE THIS. YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THE QUESTION IS: HOW DO WE HARNESS IT. AND THIS IS WHERE GOVERNMENT COMES IN. THIS IS WHERE POLITICAL PARTIES COME IN. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE BEEN SLOWLY OVER TIME DRIP, DRIP, DRIP TAUGHT TO THINK SMALL, THINK SMALL, THINK SMALL, THINK, YOU KNOW, IN MICRO-TARGETING, AND REALLY WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING NOW IS BUILDING A GRAND VISION FOR THE COUNTRY. WE HAVE SEEN THROUGH THE PANDEMIC THAT IT IS POSSIBLE FOR DIFFERENT LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT TO COOPERATE. WE'VE SEEN HOW MUCH GOOD COMES OUT OF COLLABORATION, AND REALLY THAT IS THE DIRECTION THAT WE NEED TO BE HEADED IN. AND I AGREE WITH THE OTHER PANELISTS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE GREEN PARTY AND CHOOSING THE GREEN PARTY IS THE SINGLE BEST THING THAT PEOPLE IN CANADA CAN DO IF THEY WANT TO SEE THAT GRAND VISION IMPLEMENTED. I LOOK TO THE EUROPEAN UNION... I SPENT MANY YEARS WORKING IN THE EUROPEAN UNION FOR OUR GOVERNMENT AND OTHER MULTILATERALS, AND I SEE THEIR E.U. GREEN DEAL, I SEE THEIR CARBON BORDER ADJUSTMENT MECHANISM. GLEN, I THINK WE MOVED ON A BIT I THINK FROM CAP AND TRADE. AND I SEE THE FUTURE. SO IF THEY CAN DO IT, CANADIANS CAN DO IT. PEOPLE IN CANADA ARE UP TO THE JOB. THEY JUST NEED IT ARTICULATED BY THEIR LEADERS, AND THIS IS WHERE LEADERSHIP MATTERS THE MOST.

Steve says SINCE YOU MENTION GLEN MURRAY, I SHOULD GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO COME BACK ON THAT BECAUSE HE WAS THE ENVIRONMENT MINISTER IN ONTARIO THAT BROUGHT IN THE CAP AND TRADE PLAN THAT THE FORD GOVERNMENT SUBSEQUENTLY CANCELLED. GLEN MURRAY, DO YOU THINK THE TIME FOR CAP AND TRADE HAS COME AND GONE?

Glen says NO. I THINK IT'S NECESSARY BUT NOT SUFFICIENT. CAP AND TRADE IS THE ONLY SYSTEM THAT WORKS. THE EUROPEAN SYSTEMS AREN'T WORKING. CALIFORNIA AND QUEBEC ARE STILL ON TRACK. QUEBEC, ONTARIO, AND CALIFORNIA, BECAUSE WHAT CAP AND TRADE GIVES YOU, IT'S A LEGISLATED CAP. ONTARIO WAS COMING DOWN AT 4.3 percent PER YEAR. WHAT YOU GET WITH CAP AND TRADE IS YOU GET A GUARANTEED REDUCTION BECAUSE YOU BASICALLY HAVE BUILT A CARBON BUDGET, WHICH IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO, AND YOU REDUCE THAT BY 4.3 percent PER YEAR, MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO EMIT GREATER THAN THAT. WITH A CARBON TAX LIKE THE CANADIAN ONE, IT GIVES YOU PRICE... IT'S JUST A TAX. AND NO LEGISLATURE HAS BEEN PREPARED TO RAISE IT TO THE 40 OR 50 dollars A TONNE BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY IMPACT IT HAS.

Annamie says GLEN, ISN'T THAT A QUESTION OF LEADERSHIP AS OPPOSED TO A QUESTION OF [inaudible]. WE HAVE A GENERAL CONSENSUS AMONG ECONOMISTS, AROUND NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING ECONOMISTS THAT A CARBON TAX IS THE CHEAPEST MOST EFFICIENT WAY WHEN COMPARED TO CAP AND TRADE AND OTHER MEANS TO ACTUALLY GET TO OUR TARGETS. ARE WE REALLY GETTING BACK TO THE MAIN THING THAT IS THE LEADERSHIP THAT IS NEEDED IN ORDER TO CONVINCE CANADIANS THAT THIS REALLY IS THE BEST AND CHEAPEST OPTION FOR THEM?

Glen says SHOW ME A TAX SYSTEM IN THE WORLD THAT'S WORKING AND SHOW ME ANY SYSTEM THAT WAS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THE QUEBEC AND ONTARIO AND CALIFORNIA CARBON TAX SYSTEM. LET ME JUST FINISH. AND THAT'S NOT ENOUGH. BECAUSE YOU NEED A LEGISLATIVE CAP. YOU ALSO NEED MANDATES RIGHT NOW TO SWITCH OUR FLEET OFF ELECTRIC VEHICLES, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO MANDATE, AS WE DID GOING INTO THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND AS WE DID WITH COAL PLANT CLOSURES, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE VEHICLES THAT CAN BE SOLD EVERY YEAR. WE'VE GOT TO GET TO THAT MANDATE. WE HAVE TO DO A LOT MORE. WE HAVE TO LEGISLATE A SHIFT IN TECHNOLOGIES. WE ONLY HAVE TEN YEARS. THERE ISN'T A TAX SYSTEM THAT CAME CLOSE TO THE SUCCESS OF THE CALIFORNIA, QUEBEC, ONTARIO SYSTEM. IT SIMPLY WAS THE ONE THAT ACHIEVED THOSE RESULTS.

Steve says LET ME HEAR FROM THE THREE OF YOU. WE HAVE THE CARBON TAX IN PLACE, WE TALK ABOUT CONSERVATIVES GETTING THERE VIA REGULATION, WE'VE HEARD ABOUT CAP AND TRADE, THERE ARE OTHER IDEAS OUT THERE AS WELL. WHAT DO YOU LIKE?

David says IT'S IRONIC THAT THE CONSERVATIVES ARE TALKING ABOUT REGULATION BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO GO AGAINST THE WHOLE IDEA. THE GREAT THING ABOUT CAP AND TRADE AND THE CARBON TAX IS YOU'RE SETTING A PRICING MECHANISM. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO. I THINK GLEN IS RIGHT. WE NEED A COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION. I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH ANNAMIE AS WELL, THAT PUTTING A PRICE ON CARBON IS ESSENTIAL TO GETTING THERE. IT'S WAY BEYOND THAT. WE NEED TO TRANSFORM THE WAY OUR ECONOMY WORKS. WE NEED TO CREATE THE LARGEST JOB CREATION PROGRAMME IN CANADIAN HISTORY THROUGH THE GREEN NEW DEAL. WE NEED TO BUILD AN EAST-WEST ELECTRICAL GRID ACROSS OUR COUNTRY, POWERED BY RENEWABLES. AND WE NEED TO MAKE A JUST TRANSITION WHERE NO ONE IS LEFT BEHIND FROM FOSSIL FUEL TO RENEWABLES. WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT A BIG, COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHETHER ONE LITTLE CHANGE OR ANOTHER IS BETTER. IT'S ABOUT, HOW DO WE MAKE BIG, TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE SCIENTISTS ARE TELLING US WE ONLY HAVE FIVE OR SIX OR SEVEN YEARS TO GO BEFORE THE GLOBAL CLIMATE EMERGENCY BECOMES IRREVERSIBLE. SO IT'S TIME FOR ACTION ON ALL FRONTS. IT'S TIME FOR ALL HANDS ON DECK RIGHT NOW.

Steve says AMITA, CAN I GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS?

Amita says YEAH. SO I THINK EVERYBODY HAS BROUGHT UP REALLY IMPORTANT POINTS, BUT WE'RE ACTUALLY MISSING THE CORE OF IT, WHICH IS WE DON'T HAVE SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS. WE HAVE ZERO. AND I SPEAK FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE HERE, AND I LOVE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY, BECAUSE GENERALLY, WE REALLY DON'T ACTUALLY SEE ANYTHING THAT'S EVIDENCE-BASED. AND IF WE LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON ACROSS THE ENTIRE PLANET RIGHT NOW, THERE'S ALREADY DESTRUCTION. AND I'VE BEEN THROUGH IT MYSELF. I LOST MY MOTHER AND MY HOUSE IN A MUDSLIDE. SO I'M WATCHING EVERYONE ACROSS THIS PLANET SUFFER ALREADY. IT'S NOT SEVEN YEARS. IT'S EVERY SINGLE MINUTE WE CAN POSSIBLY GET TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN. SO I AGREE, IT'S GOING TO TAKE MORE THAN ONE METHOD. BUT WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER AND WE HAVE TO BE AWARE THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY IN A POSITION OF PRIVILEGE BASED ON WHERE WE ARE IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF DIRECT CLIMATE IMPACT. THAT IT'S FAR WORSE. AND WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY WITH OUR PROSPERITY TO DO AS MUCH AS WE CAN AS FAST AS WE CAN.

Steve says JUDY?

Judy says YES, I AGREE. A CARBON TAX IS JUST ONE TOOL IN THE TOOL KIT, AND WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO HAVE THIS INCREMENTAL CHANGE. AND WE HAVE TO HAVE THE POLITICAL WILL. WE HAVE CAP AND TRADE IN NOVA SCOTIA. AND THEY REALLY FUMBLED THE BALL BECAUSE WHAT THEY DID IS THE TOP THREE EMITTERS, THEY GAVE THEM THEIR CARBON CREDITS FOR FREE FOR FOUR YEARS. THAT'S DELAYING US FROM ACTUALLY REACHING THOSE TARGETS IN FOUR YEARS. SO THE POLITICAL WILL HAS TO BE THERE. THE UNDERSTANDING HAS TO BE THERE. I HEAR CONVERSATIONS FROM OUR POLITICAL LEADERS WHO DON'T TRULY UNDERSTAND HOW CARBON PRICING EVEN WORKS. AND THESE PEOPLE ARE MAKING THE DECISIONS. AND THAT'S TERRIFYING WHEN WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY THESE GAMES. WE HAVE TO HAVE A FULLY FLESHED-OUT PLAN AND WE HAVE TO GET STARTED ON IT NOW, PREFERABLY A YEAR AGO OR FOUR YEARS AGO OR TEN YEARS AGO. BUT WE HAVE TO DO WHAT WE CAN NOW AND THAT MEANS EVERYTHING. THAT MEANS ALL HANDS ON DECK AND THERE'S NO PUSSY FOOTING AROUND ANY LONGER.

Steve says CAN I ASK OUR DIRECTOR SHELDON OSMOND TO BRING THE FIVE-SHOT UP. PERHAPS THROUGH A SHOW OF HANDS, IS THERE ANYBODY HERE WHO THINKS WE NEED MORE PIPELINES IN THE COUNTRY? ANY SHOW OF HANDS? OKAY. THAT'S AN O-FOR-5. NO PIPELINE SUPPORTERS ON THIS GROUP AT ALL. IN WHICH CASE, I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE ANY TIME ON THAT QUESTION. IF THERE'S NOTHING TO DEBATE, THERE'S NOTHING TO DEBATE. LET'S MOVE ON. THE LIBERALS AND NEW DEMOCRATS, THEY WOULD SAY HAD SERIOUS ENVIRONMENTAL PLANKS IN THEIR LAST ELECTION PLATFORMS. HAVE THEY BECOME GREEN ENOUGH... THE CONSERVATIVES ARE A DIFFERENT STORY, FOR WHATEVER REASON POLLS HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THE PUBLIC DIDN'T SEE THEM AS HAVING A SERIOUS ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ON CLIMATE CHANGE. DO YOU THINK THOSE PARTIES HAVE BECOME GREEN ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU REDUNDANT? GO AHEAD, GLEN MURRAY, START US OFF.

Glen says NO. YOU LOOK AT THEM ALL FROM B.C... THE GREENS, THE NDP PARTICULARLY, ARE NOW ONE OF THE PARTIES THAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO MAJOR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS IN SUPPORTING FOSSIL FUELS. THE PROJECT THAT THEY'RE SUPPORTING IN B.C. IS GOING TO DO MORE... CREATE MORE POLLUTION THAN 2.8 BILLION dollars THE ONTARIO CONSERVATIVES ARE PUTTING INTO GAS PLANTS. WE KNOW WHAT WORKS NOW. I MEAN, WHAT NEW ZEALAND IS DOING WORKS TO AN EXTENT. NORWAY HAS A HUGE 20-PLUS SALES TAX ON INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE. THEY CAN DO THAT. IF YOU'RE NOT PREPARED TO HAVE A HIGH CARBON TAX, A VERY HIGH ONE, OR A CAP AND TRADE SYSTEM WHICH CAN DELIVER THE SAME RESULTS AT 15, 20, 25 DOLLARS A TON AND IT TAKES 80 dollars A TONNE TO DO THAT. THE ONLY PARTY THAT IS TALKING ABOUT WORKABLE SOLUTIONS THAT YOU CAN GET ELECTED ON BECAUSE NOBODY IS GOING TO GET ELECTED ON A 300 dollar CARBON TAX, YOU NEED A TAX, TRADE SYSTEMS, THINGS THAT ARE AFFORDABLE AND WORK WELL IN THE ECONOMY. WE KNOW THAT NOW. WE KNOW CALIFORNIA IS WORKING. WE KNOW THE CARBON TAX JURISDICTIONS ARE STILL SEEING EMISSIONS GO UP. AND THE NDP USED TO SUPPORT CAP AND TRADE UNDER JACK LAYTON. IT WAS VERY POPULAR WHEN THEY DO THAT. PART OF THE REASON JACK SUPPORTED IT, IT'S NOT ENVIRONMENTALLY EFFECTIVE, YOU CAN GET ELECTED ON THE CAP AND TRADE SYSTEM AND YOU GET BETTER RESULTS WITH A CAP AND TRADE SYSTEM. WE'RE AN EVIDENCE-BASED PARTY. WE SHOULD LOOK AROUND THE WORLD AND ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE. THE OTHER ONE THAT WORKS IS A [inaudible] DIVIDEND, IT WORKS WELL IN CALIFORNIA, AND WE NEED TO BE... HOLD OURSELVES TO OUR OWN STANDARD OF EVIDENCE-BASED. WE NEED SOMETHING THAT CAN WORK. AMITA, WE HAVE TO GET WAY DOWN. WE NEED TO BE 10, 20 PERCENT DOWN. WE HAVE TO BE CARBON NEUTRAL LONG BEFORE 2050. IF WE DON'T [indiscernible]. I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT. SYRIA HAS EIGHT POINT...

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Steve says I THINK WE HAVE OUR FIRST TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY WHICH IS AMAZING WE'VE LASTED THIS LONG WITHOUT ONE. OBVIOUSLY IN THIS ERA OF COVID WE'RE USING DIFFERENT TYPES OF TECHNOLOGY AND STUFF FREEZES UP FROM TIME TO TIME. JUDY GREEN, DO WE STILL NEED THE GREENS BECAUSE THE LIBERALS AND NEW DEMOCRATS WOULD SAY, WE'VE GOT THE ENVIRONMENT PRETTY WELL COVERED IN OUR PLATFORMS?

Judy says WELL, THEY CERTAINLY TALK A GOOD TALK, BUT ACTIONS SPEAK A HECK OF A LOT LOUDER THAN WORDS. THEY CAVE IN EVERY SINGLE TIME. WE'VE SEEN THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. WE HAVE TO STOP THAT. WHAT DO THEY SAY? FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU. FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME. WE HAVE EVIDENCE-BASED SOLUTIONS AND WE'RE READY TO GO. I FEEL LIKE SAYING WE'RE READY. SEND US IN, COACH.

Steve says Annamie, WHAT DO YOU SAY?

Annamie says IT IS SUCH AN INTERESTING...
IF THE LIBERALS AND THE NDP JUST SWALLOW OUR CLIMATE POLICIES WHOLE, THEY SAY THEY'RE CONVERTED, THEY'VE DECIDED THEY'RE ON BOARD, IS THERE A REASON FOR THE GREEN PARTY TO EXIST? AND I BELIEVE ABSOLUTELY THERE'S A REASON FOR THE GREEN PARTY TO EXIST AND I TOUCHED ON IT BEFORE. IT'S REALLY ALL ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE ARE THE ONES THAT PROPOSED THOSE PARTIES THAT THEY ABSORBED AND THAT HAPPENS TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE NDP'S NEWFOUND AND WE'RE VERY HAPPY, I'M PERSONALLY VERY HAPPY, THEIR NEW FOUND INTEREST IN GUARANTEED LIVABLE INCOME OR, YOU KNOW, THE GROWING CONSENSUS AROUND UNIVERSAL PHARMACARE OR PLANS FOR TUITION-FREE POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION, IT IS THE GREENS THAT HAVE PUT THOSE IDEAS INTO THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE, AND WE DO IT BASED ON EVIDENCE. WE DO IT WITHOUT FEAR. AND WE DO IT ON BEHALF OF PEOPLE IN CANADA. WE ARE THE PARTY THAT OCCUPIES THAT SPACE. IT'S UNFORTUNATE WE'RE THE ONLY ONES. I WELCOME AND INVITE THE OTHER PARTIES TO JOIN US THERE. UNTIL THERE IS ANOTHER PARTY THAT PRIORITIZES THE PEOPLE FIRST AND THE EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY FIRST, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A ROLE FOR THE GREEN PARTY IN CANADA.

Steve says AMITA, YOUR VIEW ON THAT?

Amita says I THINK THIS ONE IS A BIT TRICKY AND I'LL START OFF BY SAYING, ABSOLUTELY, THERE'S A MASSIVE, IMPORTANT PLACE FOR THE GREEN PARTY. BUT I THINK TO ACTUALLY MAINTAIN OUR RELEVANCY, WE HAVE TO SHIFT AND SHIFT BACK TO OUR CORE AND OUR VALUES AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE BRING. AND I SAY THIS BECAUSE WE SAW IN THE LAST ELECTION, THAT WAS KIND OF THE LAST TIME WE WERE VOTING IN CANADA IN A SORT OF PRE-EMPTIVE WAY ON CLIMATE. NOW WE SEE THE DISASTER IS HERE, LIKE TORNADOES AND FLOODING. AND WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE JUST HAVING CLIMATE POLICY ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. AND WE SEE THAT THROUGH THE OTHER PARTIES. IT'S COMPLETELY BELIEVABLE. AND IT... IT'S HARD FOR ANYONE TO DIFFERENTIATE CLIMATE POLICIES AND IT'S DIFFICULT WHEN EVERYBODY IS PROMISING THE SAME THING. WE HAVE THE JOB OF BUILDING A MOVEMENT, RETURNING TO OUR CORE, PRESENTING THIS PICTURE OF THE WORLD WHERE WE CAN LIVE FOR GENERATIONS SUSTAINABLY, LOOKING AFTER EACH OTHER WITH HIGH WELL-BEING AND COME BACK TO OUR CORE ALSO OF REPRESENTATION, OF BRINGING PEOPLE TO GOVERNMENT, AND I THINK BY SHOWING OURSELVES TO BE UNIQUE FROM THE OTHER PARTIES AS WELL AS ALWAYS BEING THE LEADER ON CLIMATE AND THE ONES THAT CAN ALSO BE THE BEST IN RESPONSE, WE WILL HAVE MORE THAN A PLACE BUT A PLACE FOR GOVERNMENT.

Steve says DAVID?

David says THE OTHER PARTIES PROMISE REAL CHANGE, BUT THEY CONSISTENTLY DELIVER EITHER SMALL CHANGE OR THEY DO THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY SAID DURING THEIR CAMPAIGN. WE SEE THAT HERE IN BRITISH COLUMBIA WITH THE NDP. THEIR PARTY IS 6.6 BILLION dollars INTO THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY HERE INTO A MARKET THAT ACTUALLY ISN'T SUSTAINABLE. THEY'RE LOGGING MORE OLD GROWTH FOREST HERE ON VANCOUVER ISLAND THAN UNDER THE LIBERALS. IT'S THE SAME THING WITH THE FEDERAL LIBERALS. THE LIBERALS HAVE SAID WE WILL TAX FOSSIL FUEL SUBSIDIES TO ZERO AND NOW WE ARE SUBSIDIZING FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES MORE THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE OECD PER CAPITA. SO IT'S SHOCKING. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE GREENS CAN SAY IS WE DO NOT DO THIS. ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, ECOLOGICAL WISDOM... THESE ARE CORE TO OUR VALUES. WE ARE NOT GOING TO BREAK OUR PROMISES. WE'RE NOT GOING TO SAY ONE THING AND DO THE OTHER. BUT MORE THAN THAT, WE ALSO... SOCIAL JUSTICE IS ONE OF OUR CORE VALUES, AND WE ALSO HAVE REALLY WELL-THOUGHT-OUT PLANS, FULLY COSTED, ON HOW WE LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND WHEN WE MAKE THE TRANSITION OFF FOSSIL FUELS AND ONTO RENEWABLES. WE HAVE THOSE PLANS COSTED OUT BY THE PARLIAMENTARY BUDGET OFFICER. THEY'RE VERY CREDIBLE, SERIOUS PLANS. AND I THINK CANADIANS ARE AT THE POINT, ESPECIALLY NOW IN THESE TIMES OF COVID-19, TO LOOK AT US IN A NEW WAY, SAY WE NEED CHANGE. WE NEED DEEP, TRANSFORMATIONAL SOLUTIONS AND WE JUST CAN'T COUNT ON THE OLD-LINE PARTIES TO KEEP THEIR WORD. SO LET'S TRY THE GREENS. GIVE THE GREENS A CHANCE.

Steve says OKAY. WE'RE DOWN TO LESS THAN TEN MINUTES TO GO HERE. TIME FLIES WHEN YOU'RE HAVING A GOOD TIME. I WANT TO SEE IF WE CAN GET TWO MORE QUESTIONS IN BEFORE WE'RE DONE. PERHAPS ONE OF THE BIGGEST PUBLIC POLICY ISSUES THAT ALL OF YOU, WHOEVER WINS THIS THING, WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN THE FUTURE, IS TO WEIGH IN ON THIS ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO DEFUND THE POLICE. AND I KNOW THAT MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. FOR SOME PEOPLE IT MEANS GETTING RID OF THE POLICE SERVICES ENTIRELY. FOR OTHERS IT MEANS TAKING THAT MONEY THAT PERHAPS GOES TO POLICE BUDGETS NOW TO HAVE THEM RESPOND TO MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND REDIRECT IT TO OTHERS WHO CAN PERHAPS MORE EFFECTIVELY ANSWER THOSE CALLS. AMITA, WHY DON'T YOU START US OFF? DEFUND THE POLICE. ARE YOU FOR IT? ARE YOU AGAINST IT? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU?

Amita says I AM ABSOLUTELY FOR IT, BUT ITS DEFINITION IS DEFINITELY INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. SO I THINK IT'S ALSO A LONG-TERM... NOT TOO LONG, BUT IT'S NOT AN IMMEDIATE THING. IT'S NOT AN IMMEDIATE PROCESS. SO THE FIRST THING IS TO START DEFLECTING FUNDS TOWARDS HEALTH, TOWARDS EDUCATION, TOWARDS COMMUNITY SYSTEMS, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WE SEE DEFINITELY OVERFUNDING OF POLICE. BUT THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THAT DIVERSION OF FUNDS WILL NEVER ACCOMPLISH, AND THAT IS UNDOING OF SYSTEMIC RACISM, VIOLENCE, AND OPPRESSION. SO I DO THINK THAT WE NEED TO COMPLETELY OVERHAUL THE SYSTEM, COMPLETELY BREAK IT DOWN AND APART, AND REBUILD DIFFERENT SYSTEMS. SO WHETHER IT BE MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS RESPONDING TO MENTAL HEALTH CALLS OR COMMUNITY SAFETY ORGANIZATIONS TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE ON THE GROUND IS SAFE, BUT IT DOES NOT ALSO DENY THE REAL FACT THAT WE HAVE SOME VIOLENT CRIME. BUT A LOT OF THAT IS NOT BY US, NOT BY REGULAR PEOPLE. AND SO YOU MAY HAVE TO HAVE A RESPONSE FORCE FOR THAT, BUT IT CANNOT BE ONE THAT IS BASED IN SYSTEMIC RACISM AND IT HAS TO BE APART FROM KIND OF REGULAR LIFE.

Steve says ANNAMIE PAUL, WHAT DOES DEFUND THE POLICE MEAN TO YOU?

Annamie says THANK YOU, STEVE. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT TOUCHES BLACK CANADIANS AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OVERWHELMINGLY DISPROPORTIONATELY. WE ARE THE TWO MOST OVERREPRESENTED GROUPS IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. WE ARE THE TWO GROUPS THAT SUFFER MOST FROM EXCESSIVE POLICE USE OF FORCE, AND SO IT'S SOMETHING, OF COURSE, THAT IS... IT'S JUST A DAY-TO-DAY REALITY FOR ME AND FOR MY COMMUNITY AND FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLES ACROSS THE COUNTRY. I KNOW THAT THERE ARE CANDIDATES, AMITA AND OTHERS WHO HAVE CALLED FOR ABOLISHING THE POLICE. I DO NOT THINK THAT IS THE RIGHT STRATEGY. I KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND MANY OTHERS WILL TELL YOU THAT IT MAY BE A VERY SMALL NUMBER OR PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION, BUT THERE ARE SOME VERY BAD PEOPLE DOING SOME VERY PREDATORY THINGS AND THERE'S NO AMOUNT OF COMMUNITY OR SOCIAL SERVICES THAT IS GOING TO STOP THEM FROM DOING THAT AND WE WANT THEM OFF OF THE STREET. AND SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS JUST BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE ROLE FOR THE POLICE AND WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE ROLE FOR OTHER TYPES OF SOCIAL SERVICES. IF I CAN JUST GIVE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT WE CAN ABSOLUTELY START WITH JUST TODAY, THERE IS NO NEED TO DELAY. WE CAN ADOPT THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE UNITED NATIONS WORKING GROUP ON PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT. THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS APPLY TO BLACK CANADIANS. THEY ALSO WOULD APPLY TO INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AS WELL. AND IT IS VERY COMPREHENSIVE AND THE RESULT OF A LOT OF WORK IN THE COMMUNITY. AND WE HAVE LAUNCHED A PETITION IN MY CAMPAIGN FOR A NATIONAL DATABASE ON POLICE USE OF FORCE SO THAT WE CAN GET THE DATA, THE DISAGGREGATED DATA SO WE KNOW HOW DEEP THE PROBLEM IS. WE KNOW IT IS CATASTROPHIC. BUT THE NUMBERS NEED TO COME TO LIGHT SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY TAKE THE ACTION THAT WE NEED TO AND...

Steve says SORRY, ANNAMIE...

Annamie says I'LL INDULGE MYSELF FOR ONE MORE SECOND BECAUSE OF THIS ISSUE. I WILL SAY ONE OF THE MOST IMPACTFUL THINGS THAT PEOPLE IN CANADA CAN DO IF THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT THIS ISSUE IS TO PUT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND BLACK CANADIANS IN POSITIONS OF POWER SO THAT WE CAN TALK FOR OURSELVES, SO THAT WE CAN IMPLEMENT THE CHANGES THAT ARE NEEDED. THE TIME FOR THE LISTENING IS OVER. WE HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR. IT'S TIME TO ALLOW US TO TAKE THE ACTION.

Steve says LET'S GO TO DAVID NEXT ON DEFUNDING THE POLICE.

David says THE PARLIAMENTARY BLACK CAUCUS HAS COME UP WITH A REALLY GOOD PLAN AROUND POLICE REFORM AND HOW WE FIX A BROKEN JUSTICE SYSTEM. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE POLICE. IT'S ABOUT A JUSTICE SYSTEM. AND MORE FUNDAMENTALLY, IT'S ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM IN OUR SOCIETY. BUT WE CAN OVERCOME THIS. WE HAVE PLAN, LIKE THE PLAN PUT FORWARD BY THE BLACK PARLIAMENTARY CAUCUS. WHAT WE NEED IS SYSTEMIC CHANGE. I'VE WORKED INSIDE THE JUSTICE SYSTEM FOR 28 YEARS. I WORKED IN HUMAN RIGHTS. I WORKED ON INDIGENOUS JUSTICE. AND I'VE SEEN THIS MYSELF. WE NEED A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT IS OPEN TO DEEP CHANGE, WHICH IS ABOUT EMPOWERING MULTIDISCIPLINARY TEAMS. SO THE POLICE, WHEN THEY GO TO A PLACE WHERE THERE'S A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE, ARE NOT THE FIRST ONES THERE, UNLESS THERE'S VIOLENCE AND DANGER THAT'S REAL DANGER TO THE MENTAL HEALTH WORKERS. WE HAVE A PERFECT EXAMPLE HERE IN VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA, TREATMENT TEAMS THAT WORK TOGETHER AND MAKE SURE THAT THE RIGHT PERSON IS DOING THE RIGHT JOB. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE TOO MANY SILOS IN OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM. WE HAVE TOO MANY SILOS IN THE WAY OUR GOVERNMENT WORKS. WE NEED TO FOCUS ON SERVICE TO CANADIANS. IF WE DO THIS RIGHT, WE CAN LEAD DEEP TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGE. THAT'S WHAT THE GREENS HAVE ALWAYS STOOD FOR AND IT DEFINITELY APPLIES HERE IN ADDRESSING RACISM IN CANADA.

Steve says JUDY GREEN, TO YOU, PLEASE.

Annamie says CAN I JUST PUSH...

Steve says ANNAMIE, FORGIVE ME. WE'RE GOING TO RUN OUT OF TIME AND I HAVE TO MAKE SURE EVERYBODY GETS EQUAL TIME. JUDY GREEN, OVER TO YOU.

Judy says THANK YOU. I THINK WE'RE ACTUALLY DEALING WITH MULTIPLE ISSUES RIGHT HERE. WE'RE DEALING WITH HORRENDOUS VIOLENCE AGAINST, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE BLACK, INDIGENOUS, AND PEOPLE OF COLOUR, WHICH ARE NOT EXCUSABLE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. WE'RE DEALING WITH A CORPORATE CULTURE WITHIN A VERY COLONIAL SYSTEM, AND THAT HAS TO CHANGE. AND I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT WE'RE GOING TO ROOT THAT OUT BY HAVING SLOW, INCREMENTAL CHANGES. WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE MIND SET FROM BEING REACTIONARY, ONLY DEALING WITH THINGS AFTER THE FACT, HAVING OUR POLICE OFFICERS GOING OUT AND EXPECTING TO BE DEALING WITH CRIMINALS EVEN WHEN THEY'RE DEALING WITH SOMEBODY WHO MIGHT BE HAVING A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS. THEY ONLY HAVE ONE TOOL IN THEIR TOOL BOX, AND THAT'S NOT EFFICIENT AND IT'S NOT FAIR TO PUT THEM IN THAT POSITION EITHER BECAUSE WE NEED TO BE DOING THESE MULTIDISCIPLINARY TEAMS. WE NEED TO BE HAVING SOCIAL WORKERS GOING TO THESE WELLNESS CALLS. WE NEED TO BE LOOKING MORE AT PREVENTION WITHIN OUR COMMUNITIES AS WELL. GUARANTEED LIVABLE INCOME. BRINGING PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY, WHICH REDUCES ALCOHOLISM AND ADDICTIONS. IT KEEPS PEOPLE IN SCHOOL. IT REDUCES CRIME. AND WE HAVE THE STATS THAT BACK THAT UP. SO THE WAY I SEE IT IS IT NEEDS TO BE A SHIFT AND IT WILL BE DEFUNDING BECAUSE AS WE PUT MONEY INTO THESE SOCIAL SUPPORTS, THESE PREVENTATIVE MEASURES, THEN THE POLICE WILL BE CALLED ON LESS AND LESS IN THOSE COMMUNITIES. AND SO THEREFORE THE FUNDING FOR THEM WILL BE LESS NECESSARY. AND WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO STOP MILITARIZING OUR POLICE. I'M A VETERAN. THERE IS A WAY TO DEFEND OURSELVES; IT IS NOT IN OUR POLICE FORCE. WE DO NEED RAPID ACTION UNITS TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THE VIOLENT CRIME THAT IS STILL HAPPENING AND WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN, EVEN WITH THESE IN PLACE, BUT WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO IS IT'S GOING TO MAKE IT MORE EQUITABLE SO WE HAVE FAR FEWER PEOPLE IN PRISON AND IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY COME FROM A COMMUNITY OF LOWER MEANS AND DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORTS AND THE PRIVILEGE...

Steve says JUDY, I'M JUMPING IN BECAUSE WE HAVE LITERALLY GOT A MINUTE LEFT. I HAVE TO GIVE IT TO GLEN MURRAY TO WEAR IN ON THIS.

Glen says WHEN I WAS MAYOR THE POLICING BUDGET WAS 20 percent. IT IS NOW OVER 30 percent. ALL OTHER SERVICES, HOUSING, PARKS, SOCIAL SERVICES, WERE 50 percent OF THE BUDGET. THEY'RE NOW 35 percent. THE NEW DEAL FOR CITIES WHICH I WORKED ON PUSHED MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO CITIES. YOU HAVE TO RELOCALIZE THIS. THE BEST HOUSING PROGRAMS IN WINNIPEG WERE WHEN THE COMMUNITY RAN THEM. WE NEED COMMUNITY BASED DEVELOPMENT CORPORATIONS, SOCIAL ENTERPRISE. WE BUILT 6,000 AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS, MASSIVELY REDUCED CRIME. WITH A COMMUNITY BASED POLICING MODEL THAT USED MORE HEALTH INSPECTORS, SOCIAL SERVICES FOLKS AND BUILDING INSPECTORS TO ENFORCE THE LAW AND BRING CIVILITY. DECENTRALIZE GOVERNMENT. PUT MORE MONEY BACK IN CITIES. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE BECAUSE YOU'LL NEVER GET IT. BUT THERE'S NOTHING STOPPING US. WE WERE SO CLOSE. WE PUT 5 CENTS A LITRE GAS TAX. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS TO TRANSFER TAX REVENUE TO CITIES AND CITY GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO GIVE POWER BACK TO THOSE RACIALIZED MINORITIES. SCHOOL BOARDS, COMMUNITY GROUPS. LET THE COMMUNITIES RUN THEMSELVES. TORONTO USED TO UNDER DAVID CROMBIE HAD NEIGHBORHOOD PLANNING SESSIONS AND NEIGHBORHOOD CORPORATIONS AND SOCIAL ENTERPRISES, NOT GOVERNMENT RUN PROGRAMS. REEMPOWER PEOPLE. RELOCALIZE IT. FOLLOW THE PHILOSOPHIES THAT JANE JACOBS. WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS. WE JUST HAVE TO FIX IT. SO DEFUND THE POLICE IS MORE ABOUT, LET'S RESTORE FUNDING TO NEIGHBOURHOODS. LET'S RESTORE POWER TO RACIALIZED COMMUNITIES. I DID THAT VERY SUCCESSFULLY WHEN I WAS MAYOR AND WE LITERALLY TRANSFORMED NEIGHBOURHOODS. BUT WE REALLY DIDN'T DO IT, WHEN I SAID WE, THE PEOPLE OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD DO IT. AND THOSE PROGRAMS ARE DESTROYED. WE'RE NOW INTO SURVEILLANCE TECHNOLOGIES, FACE RECOGNITION, THIS STUFF IS COSTING US A SMALL FORTUNE AND IT ENHANCES COLONIALIZATION.

The caption changes to "To watch both Green Party of Canada debates go to: tvo.org or youtube.com/theagenda."

Steve says FRIENDS, THAT'S OUR TIME. MR. DIRECTOR, A FIVE SHOT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED SO WE CAN THANK JUDY GREEN, AMITA KUTTNER, DAVID MERNER, GLEN MURRAY, AND ANNAMIE PAUL FOR JOINING US ON TVO TONIGHT. GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

Amita says THANK YOU SO MUCH, STEVE.

Annamie says THANK YOU.

Judy says THANK YOU.

Watch: Green Party of Canada Leadership Debate, Part 1