Transcript: Thriving in The Age of Coronavirus | May 21, 2020

Steve sits in a room with white walls, a low slanted ceiling and several framed pictures on the walls including one of George Drew and one of Walter Kronkite. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a white shirt and a spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Thriving in the age of coronavirus? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WHILE MANY FIND THESE TO BE VERY CHALLENGING TIMES, SOME PEOPLE ARE THRIVING. WHY ARE THOSE FOLKS DOING WELL, AND WHAT COULD THE REST OF US LEARN FROM THEM? LET'S ASK: IN SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA: DR. DAPHNE MILLER, A FAMILY PHYSICIAN AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SAN FRANCISCO...

Daphne is in her forties, with long curly gray hair in a bun. She's wearing glasses and a black sweater.

Steve continues AND HERE IN THE PROVINCIAL CAPITAL IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO, THERE'S: DR. ROGER MCINTYRE, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AND PHARMACOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO...

Roger is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a black suit and a white shirt.

Steve continues IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU TWO BOTH ABOARD. I HOPE YOU'RE DOING WELL DURING THIS PANDEMIC. I WANT TO FIND OUT... ROGER, WHY DON'T YOU START US OFF? WHY DO YOU THINK THE THREE GUESTS WE JUST TALKED TO ARE FARING FAIRLY WELL AND CERTAINLY FOUND THE SILVER LINING IN THIS PANDEMIC WHEN SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE ARE REPORTING THE OPPOSITE?

The caption changes to "Roger McIntyre. University of Toronto."

Roger says I THINK THIS IS A CRITICAL PART, STEVE, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON. AND I THINK WHAT WE HEARD FROM OUR GUESTS IS RESILIENCY. AND RESILIENCY STILL IN OUR WORLD OF PSYCHIATRY AND PSYCHOLOGY REMAINS A DIFFICULT CONSTRUCT TO FULLY OPERATIONALIZE. BUT THE WAY WE TEND TO THINK ABOUT IT IS ALONG SEVERAL DIMENSIONS AND I THINK OUR GUESTS PROBABLY ILLUSTRATED SOME OF THAT. PEOPLE IN FACT WHO ARE MORE RESILIENT TO CRISES OR TO STRESSORS, ESPECIALLY UNPREDICTABLE, SEEMINGLY NEVER ENDING STRESSORS, OFTEN TELL US THAT THEY HAVE A SENSE OF LOCUS OF CONTROL, INTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL. THEY FEEL THEY CAN TAKE POWER OF THE EVENT IN FRONT OF THEM. SECONDLY, PEOPLE WHO TEND TO BE MORE RESILIENT HAVE WHAT WE CALL A GREATER REPERTOIRE OF RESPONDING. WE HAVE A DROP-DOWN OF THE WAY WE RESPOND. PEOPLE WHO ARE RESILIENT HAVE A BROADER DROP-DOWN MENU. FINALLY, WHICH IS IMPORTANT, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO SELECT THE MOST ADAPTIVE WAY OF RESPONDING. SO AN INTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL, HAVING A BROADER WAY OF RELATING AND HAVING CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER STATUS OVER HOW YOU REACT GIVES YOU WHAT WE CALL POSITIVE ADAPTATION. AND I THINK WHAT YOU'VE HEARD SPOKEN TO QUITE ELOQUENTLY IS POSITIVE ADAPTATION, AND WE HAVE AS MUCH TO LEARN ABOUT THAT AS WE DO ABOUT THE VULNERABILITY TO STRESS AND MENTAL ILLNESS DURING THESE TIMES.

Steve says DAPHNE, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR PATIENTS WOULD YOU SAY ARE FEELING LIKE CEOs IN THEIR OWN WORLD THESE DAYS VERSUS THOSE WHO AREN'T?

The caption changes to "Daphne Miller. University of California, San Francisco."

Daphne says I WOULD SAY RELATIVELY FEW, YEAH, ARE FEELING LIKE THAT. WHAT WAS JUST STATED IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE CANNOT IGNORE IS HOW MUCH OUR EXTERNAL ENVIRONMENT AND OUR PRIVILEGE IN LIFE CAN LEAD TO THAT SENSE OF RESILIENCY. RIGHT NOW WITH THIS PANDEMIC, PROBABLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST THING THAT SORTS PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WELL FROM THOSE WHO ARE NOT IS WHETHER THEY HAVE A JOB OR NOT, WHAT THEIR ECONOMIC OUTLOOK LOOKS LIKE, AND IF THEY DO HAVE A JOB, IS IT A JOB THAT MAKES THEM FEEL SAFE OR IS IT ONE THAT IS PUTTING THEM OUT THERE IN THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT FEELS UNSAFE AND THEY FEEL FORCED TO DO IT? WHILE THERE CERTAINLY ARE PERSONALITY AND INTERNAL FACTORS THAT CAN LEAD TO RESILIENCE OR NOT, WHAT WE'RE UNFORTUNATELY SEEING WITH THIS PANDEMIC IS THAT SO MANY OF THE INEQUITIES THAT ARE IN OUR SOCIETY ARE CREATING EVEN A DEEPER WEDGE DURING THIS EVENT.

Steve says NO, TO BE SURE, AND OUR PREVIOUS GUESTS ALL POINTED OUT THAT FINANCIALLY AT THE MOMENT THEY'RE ALL IN REASONABLY SECURE SHAPE, SO THEY'RE NOT WORRYING ABOUT WHERE THEIR NEXT MEAL IS COMING FROM. SO OBVIOUSLY THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. BUT PERHAPS, DAPHNE, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH YOU ON THIS.

Daphne says SURE.

Steve says MOST PARENTS I TALK TO SAY THEY ARE REALLY STRESSED OUT AND AT THEIR WHICH THE'S END TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ENGAGE THEIR CHILDREN FOR 12 HOURS A DAY NOW, WHEREAS IN THE PAST THEY MIGHT ONLY HAVE HAD TO DO IT FOR A FEW. WE HEARD FROM OUR PREVIOUS GUESTS WHO SAID THEY LOVED ALL THIS EXTRA TIME WITH THEIR KIDS AND WERE REALLY MAKING THE MOST OF IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK ACCOUNTS FOR THAT?

Daphne says THAT ALSO CAN BE SORT OF DEPENDENT ON, YOU KNOW, THE RESOURCES THAT YOU HAVE AND SO ON. I CERTAINLY HAVE HEARD FROM FAMILIES THAT FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, HAVING THE SHUTDOWN HAS BROUGHT THEM ALL TOGETHER, MADE THEM CLOSER. I'VE SEEN COUPLES IN MY PRACTICE WHO REALLY HAVE... MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN NOT DOING SO WELL BEFORE AND HAVE LEARNED NEW WAYS TO COMMUNICATE AND RECONNECT. PARENTS WHO ARE THINKING INTO PARENTING IN A NEW WAY. BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, SEEING MANY FAMILIES THAT ARE VERY STRESSED BY THIS.

Steve says WELL, ROGER, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH THAT. WHEN IT COMES TO MENTAL HEALTH, WHAT CONCERNS YOU THE MOST RIGHT NOW ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE HEARING?

Roger says WELL, YOU KNOW, THE PHRASE IN PUBLIC HEALTH HAS BEEN OFTEN BANDIED ABOUT THAT YOUR ZIP CODE MEANS MORE TO YOUR HEALTH AND DISEASE THAN DOES YOUR GENETIC CODE. AND I AGREE WITH THE COMMENT EARLIER ABOUT EMPLOYMENT. THIS IS THE GREATEST SHOCK TO MENTAL HEALTH CERTAINLY IN MY LIFETIME AS A PERSON OR A PROFESSIONAL. I DESCRIBE IT, STEVE, AS THE TRIFECTA. WE HAVE AN UNENDING ANXIETY RELATED TO THIS BIOMEDICAL THREAT AND WE HAVE QUARANTINE AND STAY AT HOME ORDERS. ALL THREE ARE HAZARDS TO MENTAL HEALTH. JUST RECENTLY WE PUBLISHED TWO SEPARATE PAPERS. ONE WAS AN ANALYSIS OF DATA WE EXTRACTED FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AS STATISTICS FROM HERE IN CANADA, AND WE PROJECTED OUT IN A MODEL THE EXPECTED INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF SUICIDES THAT WILL OCCUR UNLESS WE GET AHEAD OF THE CURVE AS A CONSEQUENCE OF COVID. SO WE TALK ABOUT FLATTENING CURVES. THAT'S NOT THE SENTENCE. IT'S FLATTENING THE CURVE AND PREVENTING THE CURVE. THE CURVE OF SUICIDE AND MENTAL ILLNESS RELATED TO SUICIDE, LIKE DEPRESSION, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOW BEING OBSERVED IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. SO WE'VE HEARD ABOUT DEPTHS OF DESPAIR IN AMERICA, DEPTHS OF DESPAIR, SUICIDE, RELATED TO OPIOID AND ALCOHOL, AND FINANCIAL DISTRESS. THIS HAS NOW ADDED TO THE DEPTH OF DESPAIR. STEVE, YOU'D BE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT WE'VE LOST 8 MILLION JOBS IN CANADA IN 8 WEEKS. THAT HAS ERASED 15 YEARS OF JOB ACCUMULATION IN 8 WEEKS. THE WALL STREET JOURNAL IS REPORTING JUST THIS WEEK THAT IN CANADA, 20 percent OF CANADIANS ARE GOING TO BE IN A SITUATION OF FORBEARANCE ON THEIR MORTGAGES. SO THERE IS DISTRESS HERE IN CANADA. THE U.S. IS SEEING A SIMILAR LEVEL OF DISTRESS. AND WE'RE ALREADY SEEING AN UPTICK IN THE PRESCRIPTION OF PSYCHIATRIC MEDICATIONS RELATED TO DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY. SO WE HAVE AN ECHO PANDEMIC. AS I SAID, THIS IS THE GREATEST ASSAULT THAT WE'VE SEEN ON RECORD IN MY TIME.

Steve says DAPHNE, IN WHICH CASE, AGAIN, WE HEARD OUR PREVIOUS GUESTS TALK ABOUT THIS. HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO HAVE... YOU KNOW, THE GUESTS TOLD US THEY WERE TAKING CARE OF THEMSELVES, THAT THEY WERE EXERCISING REGULARLY, THAT THEY WERE EATING BETTER NOW, COOKING BETTER FOOD, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. HOW IMPORTANT IS ALL OF THAT TO STAVING OFF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, TO MAINTAINING GOOD HEALTH, ET CETERA?

Daphne says IT IS. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. ONCE AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT YOU NEED THE RESOURCES TO DO. BUT I HAVE NOTICED ASIDE FROM A JOB BEING ONE OF THE BIGGEST PREDICTORS OF HOW MY PATIENTS ARE DOING, IS HAVING ACTUALLY THE PHYSICAL SPACE TO BE ABLE TO GO OUTSIDE AND FEEL SAFE AND NOT LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO EXPOSE SOMEBODY ELSE OR BE EXPOSED. SO, YOU KNOW, AS YOU CAN SEE, BEHIND ME, I'M SO LUCKY, I LIVE IN BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA, A PLACE WHERE WE HAVE A LOT OF SPACE AND IN FACT HAVE HAD, IN MY ZIP CODE, NO REPORTED INFECTIONS, WHICH IS KIND OF CRAZY. AND IT'S LITERALLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE SO MUCH SPACE TO ROAM AROUND HERE. WE'VE GOT HILLS WE CAN GO HIKING IN. AND ALL OF THAT CAN LEAD TO A REAL SENSE OF WELLNESS EVEN IN SHUTDOWN. BUT IN PLACES WHERE THERE'S VERY HIGH DENSITY AND NOT THAT OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SPACE, IT CERTAINLY CAN FEEL CONFINING AS WELL. THERE ARE SOME PROGRAMS THAT CITIES ARE DOING WHICH I THINK ARE REALLY WONDERFUL, LIKE THE OPEN STREETS... I THINK THAT'S THE TERM THEY'RE USING, WHERE THEY'RE ACTUALLY NOT ALLOWING CARS ON CERTAIN CORRIDORS. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S HAPPENING IN TORONTO. THEY'RE DOING THAT IN SAN FRANCISCO. SO THAT PEOPLE CAN REALLY JUST WALK DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET AND HAVE MORE SPACE THAT WAY. BUT THAT IS ACTUALLY A REALLY IMPORTANT RESOURCE RIGHT NOW, IS NATURE AND BEING OUTSIDE, AND I THINK IT REALLY IS HELPING WIH THE MENTAL HEALTH, STEVE.

Steve says I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS NOT NECESSARILY BANNING TRAFFIC ON STREETS, BUT IF THERE WERE FOUR LANES OF TRAFFIC, NARROWING THEM TO TWO AND EXPANDING THE SIDEWALKS, FIGURATIVELY, TO ALLOW MORE PEOPLESPACE AS OPPOSED TO CARSPACE. I WANT TO READ SOMETHING FROM A PSYCHOLOGY TODAY COLUMN. THIS WAS WRITTEN BY A COUPLE OF AUSTRALIAN PROFESSORS OF PSYCHOLOGY. I'LL GET YOU TO COMMENT ON IT. IT GOES LIKE THIS...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Extroverts and introverts." The quote reads "In a recent study, extroverts and introverts were asked to spend a week engaging in higher levels of extrovert-typical behaviour (being talkative, sociable, etc.) Extroverts reaped several benefits including enhanced mood and feelings of authenticity. Conversely, introverts experienced no benefits, and reported feeling tired and irritable. The social distancing rules to which we're all trying to adhere are like a mirror image of this intervention. Now it's the extroverts who are acting out of character, and who will likely experience decreased well-being in the coming weeks and months. Introverts, on the other hand, have been training for this moment their whole lives."
Quoted from Luke Smillie and Nick Haslam, Psychology Today. April 9, 2020.

Steve says ROGER, I GUESS IT RAISES A QUESTION OF HOW ONE'S NATURAL DISPOSITION CONTRIBUTES TO HOW WELL OR POORLY YOU'RE GOING TO DO AT A TIME LIKE THIS. WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

Roger says WELL, I THINK ULTIMATELY THAT'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN TO. IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN THE COMBINATION OF WHAT OUR COLLEAGUE IN BERKELEY IS SAYING IN TERMS OF SOCIAL RESILIENCY, AND I AGREE WITH THE COMMENT ABOUT A JOB, AS WELL AS AN INDIVIDUAL RESILIENCY. AND I ARTICULATED THREE ASPECTS OF INDIVIDUAL RESILIENCY, THE OCUS OF CONTROL, THE REPERTOIRE OF RELATING AND BEING ABLE TO SELECT THE MOST ADAPTIVE AND APPROPRIATE RESPONSE. THIS IS A CONFLUENCE OF SOCIAL FACTORS. WHAT I WOULD SAY TO THAT IS I THINK IT'S A BIT MORE COMPLICATED. I THINK WE AGREE ON THAT. WITH RESPECT TO WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. THERE'S ANOTHER ASPECT THAT I THINK SORT OF SEGUES INTO THIS, AND THAT IS THE ASPECT OF THE LONELINESS EPIDEMIC. YOU KNOW, WE PREFACED THIS PANDEMIC WITH AN EPIDEMIC OF LONELINESS, AND MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE DESCRIBED AS LONELY, OR THEY WOULD DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS LONELY, WOULD BE REFERRED TO OTHERS AS BEING IN FACT INTROVERTS. THEY MAY BE INTROVERTS. BUT THEY MAY NOT BE INTROVERTS. THEY MAY IN FACT BE FINDING THEMSELVES IN A DEFAULT POSITION. AND YOU COULD CONJECTURE, YOU COULD CONJECTURE THAT THE INCREDIBLE SOCIAL RECONFIGURATION THAT'S TAKING PLACE IN THE LAST 8 TO 12 WEEKS MAY HAVE A POSITIVE EXTERNALITY FOR SOME PEOPLE. SOME PEOPLE, MAYBE WHO ARE OLDER OR YOUNGER... ANY AGE OF LIFE, BUT MAYBE OLDER OR YOUNGER... WHO DIDN'T FIND THEMSELVES WITH THE SAME OR SIMILAR OPPORTUNITIES TO BE CONNECTED TO PEOPLE THAN THEY ARE NOW. THAT'S A TESTABLE HYPOTHESIS WHICH I THINK IS REASONABLE AND MIGHT ALIGN IN PART WITH THAT STATEMENT FROM THE... YOU KNOW, THE NOTION THAT AN INTROVERT MIGHT BE BETTER OFF IN SOME WAYS. IT'S OBVIOUSLY AN OVERSIMPLIFIED FRAMEWORK, INTROVERTS AND EXTROVERTS, BUT I DO THINK IT'S ACTUALLY AN INTERESTING IDEA. PEOPLE MAY FIND THEMSELVES FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME MORE... BUT BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR, STEVE. WE JUST FINISHED A STUDY IN CHINA. WE INTERVIEWED JUST SHY OF 3,000 PEOPLE IN CHINA, INCLUDING WUHAN, AND WE LOOKED AT, WHAT WAS THE ROLE OF SOCIAL MEDIA IN TERMS OF CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE. WE FOUND SOMETHING WHICH WAS ALIGNED WITH A BROADER LITERATURE ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE WERE TAUGHT AS KIDS: TOO MUCH OR TOO LITTLE OF ANYTHING IS NOT GOOD FOR YOU. SOCIAL MEDIA IN A PREVIOUS LITERATURE HAS BEEN LINKED TO LONELINESS AND LINKED TO NEGATIVE MENTAL HEALTH OUTCOMES. IN CHINA WHAT WE FOUND WAS PEOPLE WHO USED EXTENSIVE SOCIAL MEDIA AS THEIR PRIMARY WAY TO SOCIALLY ENGAGE WERE MORE LIKELY TO REPORT DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, STRESS. MORE LIKELY TO REPORT A DECREASE IN WELL-BEING. SO WE TALK ABOUT PORTION CONTROL WITH RESPECT TO FOOD AND ALCOHOL, WHICH IS AN IMMUNOSUPPRESS SANITY. WE CERTAINLY WANT TO CONNECT BUT WE WANT TO CONNECT TO THE FAMILIAR, PERHAPS CONNECTING TOO MUCH TO THE UNFAMILIAR DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

Steve says INTERESTING. DAPHNE, I WONDER IF... IT DOES RAISE THE QUESTION ABOUT THAT SLOGAN WE HEAR ALL THE TIME: WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. WHEN YOU HEAR THAT, WHAT COMES TO MIND?

Daphne says I THINK THAT ON SOME LEVEL THERE HAS BEEN AN INCREASE IN SOLIDARITY THAT I HAVE FELT IN PEOPLE'S ABILITY... STRANGERS HELPING EACH OTHER. I'VE BEEN REALLY FASCINATED WITH OUR LOCAL SOCIAL NETWORK, NEXT DOOR, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE THAT IN CANADA, BUT A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE POST THINGS THAT THEY NEED OR ARE TRYING TO FIND A PLUMBER OR WHAT HAVE YOU, AND IT'S INCREDIBLE HOW MANY STRANGERS ARE STEPPING UP TO HELP EACH OTHER. AND SO THAT FEELS VERY LOVELY. BUT I ALSO THINK THAT WHAT WAS JUST SAID IS TRUE AS WELL, THAT THERE ARE FOR SOME PEOPLE AN INCREASING SENSE OF ISOLATION. I THINK... YOU KNOW, WHEN THIS MERRY-GO-ROUND STOPPED, PEOPLE WHO WERE SINGLE OR LIVING ALONE, A LOT OF THEM HAVE TRULY BEEN ALONE FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS NOW. AS I'M SEEING PATIENTS VIRTUALLY MOSTLY BUT I AM ALSO SEEING PATIENTS FACE TO FACE, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I'M HEARING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IS I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THE SAME ROOM OR TOUCHED ANOTHER HUMAN FOR WEEKS NOW. WE ARE CREATURES, WHETHER WE'RE INTROVERTS OR EXTROVERTS, WE ARE CREATURES WHO ENJOY ANOTHER HUMAN. THIS IS A VERY HARD THING.

Steve says WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME UP WITH OUR PREVIOUS GUESTS WAS THE NOTION THAT LIFE BEFORE WAS QUITE A RAT RACE AND THEY HAVE CERTAINLY NOTICED A DIFFERENCE RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF WORK-LIFE BALANCE. THE CONSULTING FIRM ROBERT HALF IN CANADA DID THE FOLLOWING SURVEY AMONG 500 OFFICE WORKERS AND LET'S SHARE THOSE NUMBERS WITH YOU RIGHT NOW.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Work-life balance."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
79 percent REPORTED THEY WERE NOW WORKING FROM HOME BECAUSE OF COVID-19. ALMOST 8 IN 10 PEOPLE. 55 percent SAID THEIR WORK-LIFE BALANCE IMPROVED AS A RESULT OF NOT HAVING TO COMMUTE. PARENTS WERE 20 percent MORE LIKELY THAN THEIR NON-PARENTAL PEERS TO SAY THAT THEIR WORK-LIFE BALANCE HAD IMPROVED. AND 85 percent OF EMPLOYEES REPORTED WANTING THE FLEXIBILITY TO WORK FROM HOME MORE OFTEN GOING FORWARD. MANY PEOPLE, ROGER, IN THIS SITUATION, WHO WORK IN OFFICES, ARE ALSO NOW FINDING THEY ARE ABLE TO WORK FROM HOME. IS THIS A SOCIOECONOMIC ISSUE, THIS PANDEMIC? I MEAN, IT GETS BACK TO THAT SLOGAN I WAS USING BEFORE: WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. I MEAN, YES, BUT... BUT SOME PEOPLE HAVE IT A LITTLE BIT EASIER THAN OTHER PEOPLE. IS THIS A SOCIOECONOMIC ISSUE AT THE END OF THE DAY?

Roger says IT CERTAINLY IS. IT'S ALSO A GENDER ISSUE IN THE SENSE THAT... LET ME START WITH THE FIRST ONE. WE KNOW THAT INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE IN THE LOWER SOCIOECONOMIC STRATA, THEY DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF STAYING HOME. ACTUALLY, THEY OFTEN WORK IN ECONOMIES THAT ARE IN MANUFACTURING AND OTHER AREAS. THEY HAVE TO BE ON SITE. THEY CAN'T WORK VIRTUALLY. SO THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, AND WE'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT THIS NOT JUST IN THE U.S. AND CANADA BUT ELSEWHERE. IT'S HIGHLY GENDERED. 80 percent OF THE WORLD'S HEALTH CARE WORK FORCE IS WOMEN, ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION. WOMEN ARE OVERREPRESENTED IN THE SO-CALLED FACE-TO-FACE ECONOMY. IN OTHER WORDS, RETAIL AND FOOD AND ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRIES AND SO ON. AND I THINK THAT'S ONE PART THAT SEGUES INTO A POINT RELATED TO THOSE SET OF STATISTICS. YOU SEE, MURPHY WAS THE SURGEON GENERAL WITHIN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. HE WAS ONE OF THE ONES THAT REALLY IMPLICATED THE CHANGING WORK ENVIRONMENT AS CONTRIBUTING TO AN INCREASE IN LONELINESS AND STRESS. IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT HE FELT WAS THAT (a) AMERICA IS GOING THROUGH A LONELINESS EPIDEMIC. IT IS AND WE SEE THIS IN OTHER COUNTRIES. AND HE REALLY IMPLICATED THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WORKING IN GIG AND VIRTUAL ECONOMIES WAS PUTTING SOME PEOPLE IN A BETTER MENTAL HEALTH POSITION BUT NOT EVERYBODY. AND UNFORTUNATELY WOMEN END UP TAKING ON MORE AND MORE RESPONSIBILITIES, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE WORKING FROM HOME. AND SO A SURVEY YOU KNOW, STEVE, CONDUCTED IN CANADA, ANGUS... THE IPSOS-REID SURVEY THAT WAS DONE JUST ABOUT A MONTH AGO LOOKED AT ANXIETY AND STRESS IN CANADA. GUESS WHAT? IT'S HIGH. NO SURPRISE. WOMEN REPORTING IT HIGHER, ESPECIALLY WOMEN WHO HAVE KIDS AT HOME. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS NEEDS TO BE TREADED ON VERY CAREFULLY. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT, YES, THE HYBRID MODEL SEEMS VERY REASONABLE. I THINK THAT'S ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING. IT'S BEEN AMPLIFIED BY THIS PANDEMIC. AND FOR SOME PEOPLE, IT IS A BETTER AVENUE AND A BETTER WAY TO LIVE THEIR LIFE. BUT NOT FOR EVERYBODY, AND I THINK THE REALITY IS THAT WOMEN END UP TAKING ON MORE OF THE RESPONSIBILITY AND THAT'S NOT OFTEN ARTICULATED.

Steve says WE'VE GOT JUST A FEW MINUTES LEFT HERE, AND PRESUMABLY AT SOME POINT DOWN THE ROAD, DAPHNE, WE'RE GOING TO ALL BE CONFRONTED WITH WHAT WILL BE CALLED A NEW NORMAL, AND I WONDER IF, IN THE COURSE OF DEALING WITH YOUR PATIENTS, YOU HAVE TALKED TO THEM ABOUT WHAT THIS NEW NORMAL WILL LOOK LIKE AND HOW WE CAN BEST ADJUST TO IT.

Daphne says THAT'S A TERRIFIC QUESTION, IT REALLY IS THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION RIGHT NOW IS, WHAT WILL IT LOOK LIKE? AND I THINK THAT THE TRUTH IS THAT NONE OF US QUITE KNOW, WHICH IS A HORRIBLE THING FOR HUMANS TO ACTUALLY NOT KNOW WHERE YOU'RE HEADED. I THINK IN TERMS OF WHAT'S CREATING ANXIETY, THAT MIGHT BE TOP OF THE LIST. IT JUST IS THE GREAT UNKNOWN. BUT IT CERTAINLY IS GOING TO BE A MUCH MORE VIRTUAL WORLD. I MEAN, I CAN SPEAK FOR MEDICINE... I'M IN PRIMARY CARE. AND WE'RE GOING THROUGH A MASSIVE REORGANIZATION IN MY UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE REALIZE THAT VIRTUAL MEDICINE IS HERE TO STAY. I MEAN, WE WERE DOING LESS THAN 1 percent OF OUR VISITS THIS WAY BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND WE WERE SORT OF THINKING OF THIS 10-YEAR ROLLOUT TO BECOME MORE VIRTUAL, AND LITERALLY OVERNIGHT IT HAPPENED WHERE WE FLIPPED THINGS ON ITS HEAD AND OVER 90 percent OF OUR VISITS IN PRIMARY CARE BECAME THAT. AND NOW I'M ABOUT TO GET OFF THIS INTERVIEW AND START MY CLINIC FOR THE DAY AND SEE A VERY PACKED SCHEDULE OF PATIENTS WHO LITERALLY HAVE COME INTO MY WAITING ROOM BUT THEY COME INTO MY VIRTUAL WAITING ROOM AND WHAT HAVE YOU. SO I KNOW IN MY LIFE THINGS HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. IT'S A WHOLE OTHER WAY OF PRACTISING MEDICINE AND A WHOLE OTHER WAY OF CONNECTING TO MY PATIENTS. BUT, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY IT'S GOING TO PLAY OUT IN THE WORK THAT WE ALL DO AND THE WAY THAT WE LIVE OUR LIVES, THE WAY WE SHOP, THE WAY WE GET... EVEN OUR EXERCISE. I SEE SO MANY PATIENTS NOW WHO ARE PART OF VIRTUAL CLUBS AND VIRTUAL YOGA CLASSES AND DOING EVERYTHING LIKE THAT ONLINE AS WELL. YEAH, WE ALL ANTICIPATE THAT THIS IS A VERY, VERY DRAMATIC CHANGE TO OUR LIFE BUT NONE OF US QUITE KNOW WHERE WE'RE HEADED.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Steve says WELL, I CAN TELL YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN DOING VIRTUAL INTERVIEWS FOR THE LAST 9 WEEKS, IT'S THE SECOND BEST OPTION. IT'S CERTAINLY BETTER THAN NOT BEING ON THE AIR AT ALL. BUT I SURE DO MISS THE DAYS WHERE I CAN ACTUALLY LOOK SOMEBODY IN THE EYE AT A STUDIO AND HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THEM. HOPEFULLY THAT DAY WILL COME BEFORE LONG. DR. DAPHNE MILLER AT UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN FRANCISCO, WE WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BEING ON THE PROGRAM; AND ON BEHALF OF RAPT FANS ACROSS CANADA... I WAS GOING TO SAY WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE NBA FINALS LAST YEAR AGAINST GOLDEN STATE. WE DON'T APOLOGIZE AT ALL. WE ARE VERY HAPPY WITH THE OUTCOME. AND DR. ROGER McINTYRE FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, IT'S ALWAYS GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON OUR PROGRAM. THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND BE SAFE.

Daphne says THANK YOU.

Roger says THANK YOU, STEVE.

Watch: Thriving in The Age of Coronavirus