Transcript: Cyborgs: Melding Man and Machine | Mar 04, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Cyborgs: Melding man and machine. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WHILE THE MERGING OF HUMAN AND MACHINE MAY SOUND LIKE SCIENCE FICTION, TODAY IT'S REALLY JUST SCIENCE. THINK PACEMAKERS AND PROSTHETICS. BUT INCREASINGLY, THAT'S ALSO GOING WELL BEYOND STRAIGHT MEDICAL USES, AS TECH-ENTHUSIASTS ARE REDEFINING THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN THEMSELVES, MACHINES, AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. JOINING US NOW FOR A GLIMPSE OF THIS BRAVE NEW WORLD: FROM OUR STUDIO AT CARLETON UNIVERSITY IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL: TAMARA BANBURY, A SELF-DESCRIBED "VOLUNTARY CYBORG" AND A PhD STUDENT AT CARLETON...

Tamara is in her late thirties, with chin-length straight dark hair with hot pink highlights. She's wearing a black blazer over a spotted black blouse, and a silver pendant necklace.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO: ISABEL PEDERSEN, CANADA RESEARCH CHAIR IN DIGITAL LIFE, MEDIA AND CULTURE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT ONTARIO TECH UNIVERSITY, AND CO-EDITOR OF THE FORTHCOMING BOOK, "EMBODIED COMPUTING: WEARABLES, IMPLANTABLES, EMBEDDABLES, INGESTIBLES," THAT'S A GREAT TITLE...

Isabel is in her forties, with long blond hair and bangs. She's wearing a black blazer, white blouse, and a pearl necklace with matching earrings.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a drawing of a human body containing mechanic parts.

Steve continues LEE WILKINS, A CYBORG ARTIST AND ADJUNCT FACULTY AT OCAD AND RYERSON UNIVERSITIES, ALSO PURSUING A PhD AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO...

Lee is in their twenties, with short red hair. They wear green-framed glasses, a burgundy shirt and several piercings in their ears, lips and nose.

Steve continues AND ROB SPENCE, HE'S A ONE-EYED FILMMAKER WITH THE WORLD'S ONLY WIRELESS VIDEO PROSTHETIC EYE CAMERA.

Rob is in his forties, with short brown hair and a boxed beard. He's wearing a black sweater, gray shirt and a black eye-patch.

Steve continues OKAY. GOOD TO WELCOME EVERYBODY TO TVO TODAY, AND TAMARA, NICE TO HAVE YOU THERE IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL. THREE OF YOU HERE IDENTIFY AS CYBORGS. ISABEL, YOU USED THE TERM EMBODIED COMPUTING. LET'S UNDERSTAND OFF THE TOP WHAT ALL THIS MEANS. TAMARA, DO YOU WANT TO GET US STARTED HERE? CYBORGS, MEANING WHAT?

The caption changes to "Tamara Banbury. Carleton University."
Then, it changes again to "Technology-augmented humans."

Tamara says SO THE WAY I DEFINE IT, I MAKE TWO DISTINCTIONS. THERE'S MEDICAL CYBORGS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE TECHNOLOGY EMBEDDED UNDER THEIR SKIN FOR REHABILITATIVE OR THERAPEUTIC PURPOSES. AND THEN THERE'S THE PEOPLE THAT I, YOU KNOW, CATEGORIZE MYSELF WITH, VOLUNTARY CYBORGS. WE'RE IMPLANTING TECHNOLOGY FOR ENHANCEMENT OR AUGMENTATION PURPOSES. AND THAT'S PRETTY MUCH IT. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

Steve says OKAY. LEE, ANYTHING YOU'D ADD TO THAT IN DEFINING HOW YOU'RE A CYBORG?

The caption changes to "Lee Wilkins. Ryerson University."

Lee says YEAH. I USE THE CYBORG IDENTITY AS SORT OF A WAY TO TALK ABOUT MY ART. SO FOR ME IT'S A CREATIVE PRACTICE. I HAVE SEVERAL IMPLANTS AND I WOULDN'T SAY ANY OF THEM ARE USEFUL, DEFINITELY FALL UNDER THE CATEGORY OF VOLUNTARY CYBORG. FOR ME IT'S A CREATIVE IDENTIFICATION.

Steve says WE WILL FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THREES IMPLANTS AS WE GO ALONG. ROB, HOW ABOUT YOU?

The caption changes to "Rob Spence. Filmmaker."

Rob says I ACTUALLY FIND WHEN THE REST OF THE WORLD TALKS ABOUT WHO IS A CYBORG AND WHO ISN'T, IT OFTEN HAS A STRONG RELATIONSHIP WITH POP CULTURE AND SCIENCE FICTION. SO WHEREAS THEY USED TO HAVE A NORMAL PROSTHETIC EYE, NOBODY WOULD CALL ME A CYBORG. BUT YOU PUT A, YOU KNOW, 2 dollar RED LED LIGHT IN THERE, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, WOW, THIS GUY'S A CYBORG.

Steve says SHALL WE TAKE A LOOK AT THESE NOW? ACTUALLY, WE HAVE PICTURES OF YOUR RED LED EYE. SHELDON, GO AHEAD, BRING THESE UP. WE HAVE SOME PEOPLE LISTENING TO US, ROB, ON PODCAST. SO THEY CAN'T SEE THIS.

Rob says SURE.

Steve says MAYBE YOU CAN DESCRIBE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

A picture shows a small, concave transparent plastic object containing a circuit.

Rob says SURE. FIRST OF ALL, A PROSTHETIC EYE IS MADE OF PLASTIC AND IT GOES IN WHERE YOUR EYE USED TO BE. BUT TO PUT TECHNOLOGY IN THERE, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A TWO-PART PROSTHETIC SHELL AND YOU HAVE TO GET A CIRCUIT BOARD AND A BATTERY IN THERE AND THEN AN LED LIGHT, YOU CAN GET THAT PRETTY CHEAP. IN MY CASE, I ALSO GOT A VIDEO CAMERA AND A WIRELESS VIDEO TRANSMITTER. SO THAT SENDS VIDEO THROUGH THE AIR TO A RECEIVER, AND THEN YOU HAVE A SOURCE OF VIDEO THAT YOU CAN PUT ON THE INTERNET OR ON A SCREEN BEHIND YOU AT A TALK OR RECORD IT FOR DOCUMENTARY PURPOSES.

Other pictures show the device inside a human eye socket, then the finished product which looks like a human eye with a red iris.
In another picture, a young man has a bright red light inside his right eye.

Steve says AND WHERE IS ALL THAT?

Rob says WHERE IS ALL THE TECHNOLOGY?

Steve says IT'S ALL IN THAT LITTLE...

Rob says ACTUALLY, I DON'T USUALLY WEAR IT. FOR ME, IT'S LIKE A WEIRD GO-PRO FOR A ONE-EYED FILMMAKER. I POP IT IN, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WANT TO USE IT.

Steve says HOW DID YOU LOSE YOUR ORIGINAL EYE?

Rob says I WAS TRYING TO SHOOT A PILE OF COW CRAP WHEN I WAS 9 IN IRELAND AND I WASN'T HOLDING THE GUN PROPERLY AND IT RECOILED AND SMASHED INTO MY EYE.

Steve says OH, MY GOSH.

Rob says WE ALL KNOW "CHRISTMAS STORY," RALPHIE? I'M BASICALLY RALPHIE BUT I GOT THE JOB DONE.

Steve says YOU CALL IT EMBODIED COMPUTING. HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE'VE HEARD SO FAR?

Isabel says I SORT OF THINK OF EMBODIED COMPUTING AS A DESCRIPTION OF ALL OF US, RIGHT? TO A CERTAIN EXTENT WE'RE ALL A CYBORG NOW.

Steve says EVERYBODY?

The caption changes to "Isabel Pedersen. Editor, 'Embodied computing.' Ontario Tech University."

Isabel says WE'RE ALL INTEGRATING TECHNOLOGY IN OUR LIVES, RIGHT, AND INCREASINGLY IT'S BECOMING MORE EMBODIED. THERE'S REALLY BEEN A BODY-CENTRIC TURN IN COMPUTING. WE HAD THE COMPUTING AND MOBILE TURN REALLY FOR THE FIRST 20 YEARS AFTER THE TURN OF THE MILLENNIA. AND NOW WE'RE SORT OF REALLY INTEGRATING BODIES AND TECHNOLOGIES INTO OUR EVERYDAY LIVES MORE AND MORE. I MEAN, ROB MENTIONED GOPRO CAMERAS, OCULUS, FITBITS. THESE ARE SORT OF NORMALIZED TECHNOLOGIES. NOW WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT THAT SORT OF NEXT WAVE OF INTEGRATING TECHNOLOGY IN THE BODY IN A SORT OF MORE VISCERAL WAY. AND THE OTHER THING I THINK OF WHEN I THINK OF EMBODIED TECHNOLOGY IS REALLY THE WAY THAT WE'RE INTEGRATED WITH A DATASPHERE, RIGHT? WE'RE IN CONSTANT AMBIENT INTERACTION WITH PLATFORMS, LARGE CORPORATIONS THAT ARE USING OUR DATA. SO TO ME EMBODIED COMPUTING IS THAT MUCH MORE, LET'S SAY, IT'S NO LONGER JUST A SOLO ACTIVITY USING TECHNOLOGY. SO I THINK REALLY, YEAH, WE ARE ALL TO A CERTAIN EXTENT EMBODIED.

Steve says IF I SEE SOMEBODY WALKING DOWN THE STREET WITH AIR EARBUDS IN, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT'S EMBODIED TECHNOLOGY?

Isabel says ABSOLUTELY. IT'S ACCEPTED AND NORMALIZED IN SOCIETY. TO ME WHAT REALLY INTERESTS ME IS THE ETHICAL AND POLITICAL AND SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS.

Steve says INDEED. WHICH WE WILL GET TO. NOW, YOU MENTIONED YOU'VE GOT SOME STUFF IN THERE. DO YOU WANT TO SHARE SOME OF WHAT YOU'VE GOT GOING ON?

Lee says I HAVE A FEW IMPLANTS. THE MOST FUN OF MY IMPLANTS IS I HAVE TWO MAGNETS, I HAVE ONE IN MY FINGER AND I HAVE ONE IN THE SIDE OF MY HAND.

Steve says HOW DID YOU GET THEM IN THERE?

Lee says I HAD A BODY MODIFICATION ARTIST. THIS ONE WAS INJECTED AND THIS ONE, THERE WAS AN INCISION AND THEN THERE WAS STITCHES.

Steve says DID IT HURT?

Lee says NO, NOT REALLY. YEAH, I MEAN, LIKE... NOT AS MUCH AS ONE MIGHT THINK.

Steve says CAN YOU TAKE THAT GLASS, MOVE IT 6 INCHES TO YOUR RIGHT, SO THAT WE CAN GET A NICE PICTURE OF THAT DIME ON THE TABLE IN FRONT OF YOU.

Lee says MM-HMM.

Steve says WATCH THIS, EVERYBODY. OKAY. GO AHEAD.

Lee touches a dime sitting on the table and it sticks to their ring finger.

They says SO, YEAH.

Steve says YOU HAVEN'T GOT CRAZY GLUE ON YOUR FINGER.

Lee says NO CRAZY GLUE.

Steve says YOU ARE A MAGNETIC PERSONALITY.

Lee LAUGHS and says OR A WIZARD.

Steve says OR A WIZARD. NEXT OBVIOUS QUESTION: WHY DID YOU WANT TO DO THAT?

The caption changes to "Lee Wilkins, @leeborg_."

Lee says I MEAN, I'M A CURIOUS PERSON AND AN ARTIST AND WHEN I HEARD PEOPLE WERE DOING THIS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DESCRIBE IT AS LIKE, OH, IT'S LIKE ANOTHER SENSE AND IT WILL CHANGE THE WAY YOU INTERACT WITH THE WORLD AND I WANTED TO SEE WHAT THAT WOULD BE LIKE AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHETHER THAT WAS TRUE. I'M PRETTY INVOLVED IN THE BODY MODIFICATION COMMUNITY, I HAVE LOTS OF TATTOOS AND PIERCINGS, SO WHY NOT PUT A MAGNET IN MY HAND?

Steve says TAMARA, DO YOU WANT TO JOIN THE FUN HERE AND TELL US WHAT YOU'VE GOT GOING?

Tamara says SURE. I DON'T HAVE THE MAGNETS YET. I WILL SOME DAY. RIGHT NOW I HAVE A COMPUTER CHIP IN THE BACK OF EACH OF MY HANDS.

Steve says AND WHAT DO THOSE COMPUTER CHIPS DO?

Tamara says SO THE ONE IN MY LEFT HAND IS AN ENCRYPTED KEY. I'M A BETA TESTER FOR A COMPANY THAT MAKES THEM. SO I HAVEN'T DONE A LOT WITH IT YET, BUT IT IS BEING MARKETED AS MORE OF AN IDENTITY KEY AT SOME POINT THAT I CAN USE IT. SO THE ONE IN MY RIGHT HAND, I RICK ROLL PEOPLE WITH IT.

Steve says YOU WHICH?

The caption changes to "Tamara Banbury, @CyborgTamara."

Tamara says I RICK ROLL PEOPLE. SO IF YOU WERE TO SCAN MY CHIP WITH A SMARTPHONE THAT HAS NFC ENABLED, IT WOULD OPEN UP THE YouTube VIDEO FOR RICK ASTLEY'S "NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP."

Steve says RICK ROLL. I'M WITH YOU NOW. DON'T MIND THIS ODD REQUEST, BUT WOULD YOU MIND PUTTING YOUR HANDS UP TO THE CAMERA SO WE CAN SEE WHAT YOUR HANDS LOOK LIKE?

Tamara lifts up her hands and says THEY LOOK LIKE HANDS.

Steve says DO THEY LOOK... I'M LOOKING FOR STITCHES OR SCARS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING. NO. WHY DON'T I SEE ANYTHING?

Tamara says NO. IT IS VERY SIMILAR TO A BODY PIERCING. THE CHIPS COME PRE-LOADED IN A STERILE INJECTOR, AND IT LOOKS SORT OF LIKE A PIERCING NEEDLE. IT'S BIGGER THAN SAY GETTING YOUR EARS PIERCED. IT'S A QUICK 10-SECOND PROCESS. IT DOESN'T HURT. THEY PUT A BAND-AID ON AT THE END, NOT BECAUSE I'M BLEEDING, SO I DON'T GET IT DIRTY.

A picture shows a person holding a small plastic cyllinder.

Steve says WE'RE TAKING A LOOK AT IT NOW AND IT'S A FAIRLY TINY LITTLE THING I GUESS YOU'VE GOT INJECTED... INJECTED, IS THAT THE RIGHT WORD TO USE? YOU TELL ME.

Tamara says BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THE INJECTOR WORKS, YES, INJECT ARE WOULD BE GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT.

Steve says OKAY. I GUESS THE LAST QUESTION TO YOU ON THIS: WHY?

Tamara says I GOT INVOLVED IN A LOT OF PROSTHETICS, IDENTITY ISSUES, HOW PEOPLE INCORPORATE TECHNOLOGY INTO THEIR BODIES THROUGH VARIOUS EARLIER EDUCATION THAT I HAD, AND I WENT TO A COUPLE OF CONFERENCES. THERE USED TO BE A CONFERENCE DOWN IN AUSTIN EVERY YEAR CALLED BODY HACKS, AND IT WAS A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO WERE SORT OF INTO THE SAME THING, AND I SAW THE PEOPLE GETTING THE CHIPS AND IT'S REALLY... YEAH, IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I'M LIKE LEE. I COLOUR MY HAIR. I HAVE TATTOOS. I HAVE PIERCINGS. AND, YEAH, IT'S REALLY... IT SORT OF BECAME WHY NOT? YOU KNOW, WHY NOT SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE? I OFTEN FORGET ABOUT THEM, TO BE HONEST.

Steve says NOW, ISABEL, YOU DON'T DO ANY OF THIS, RIGHT?

Isabel says NO.

Steve says YOU PERSONALLY DON'T. BUT YOU'RE STUDYING IT AS AN ACADEMIC DISCIPLINE. CAN YOU HELP US MAYBE UNDERSTAND FROM A BROADER SOCIETAL POINT OF VIEW WHAT THE APPEAL OR ATTRACTION IS OF DOING THIS?

Isabel says WELL, I THINK THAT... I THINK MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE INTO BODY HACKING ARE INTERESTED IN CONTROL. THEY CAN CONTROL THE TECHNOLOGIES THAT THEY INTEGRATE WITH THEIR OWN BODY. AND THEY'RE INTERESTED IN SORT OF COUNTERING LARGE CORPORATIONS WHO ARE SORT OF IMPOSING ON THEM THROUGH THOSE KINDS OF INFRASTRUCTURES, CORPORATE INFRASTRUCTURES IN TECHNOLOGY. BUT I ALSO THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO IMAGINE AND PRESUPPOSE THE FUTURE, RIGHT? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO USE THESE TECHNOLOGIES IN THE FUTURE AND TO WHAT END? AND SO I SEE THEM AS FRONTRUNNERS IN THAT REGARD. YEAH.

Steve says IS THAT PART OF THE IDEA HERE?

Rob clears his throat, then says YEAH. YUP.

Steve says BUT YOU'RE MAKING... LIKE, YOU HAVE MADE A CONCERTED DECISION TO BE ON THE CUTTING EDGE OF WHATEVER THE NEXT THING OF HUMANITY IS; IS THAT IT?

The caption changes to "Rob Spence, @Eyeborg."

Rob says I WOULDN'T SAY THAT, ACTUALLY. I'M MORE A GUY THAT LOST HIS EYE AND I'M A FILMMAKER, SO IT'S MORE LIKE AN ELABORATE TOY FOR A ONE-EYED PERSON. WHEN YOU LOSE PART OF YOUR BODY, THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY WITH THAT SPACE AND TO HAVE SOME FUN WITH IT. I HAVE, LIKE, 3,000 COMICS IN MY BASEMENT, AND I HAVE SEEN EVERY STAR TREK. SO THIS IS LIKE...

Steve says WHEN YOU SAY EVERY STAR TREK, DO YOU MEAN EVERY EPISODE OF EVERY SERIES?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Rob says ALMOST.

Steve says BECAUSE THERE'S MORE THAN ONE SERIES.

Rob says THERE SURE ARE AND THERE SURE IS. I'VE SEEN ALMOST EVERY ONE OF THEM. I DON'T WANT TO GET CALLED OUT ON EPISODE 4 OF DISCOVERY OR SOMETHING. BUT FOR ME, IT'S FUN. IT'S LEMONS TO LEMONADE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOSE OR HAVE LOST PARTS OF THEIR BODY ARE HAVING FUN AND TAKING MORE PRIDE IN THEIR DIFFERENCE. A LOT OF THE GUYS WHO CAME BACK... PEOPLE THAT CAME BACK FROM IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN HAVE AN EXPRESSION ABOUT THEIR LIMBS THAT THEY'VE REPLACED WITH TECHNOLOGY, PIMP MY GIMP.

Steve says SAY IT AGAIN.

Rob says PIMP MY GIMP.

Steve says PIMP MY GIMP. OKAY.

Rob says AND THEY'RE ALLOWED TO SAY THAT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING. THEY'RE TAKING MORE PRIDE IN HOW DIFFERENT THEY ARE, HOW COOL THE TECHNOLOGY IS. THEY CAN REPLACE THEIR OLD BODY PART WITH.

Steve says JUST IN CASE ANYBODY DOESN'T KNOW, I THINK THAT'S A TAKEOFF ON PIMP MY RIDE, WHICH WAS A TV SHOW...

Rob says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says WHERE PEOPLE WOULD PAY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS GUSSYING UP THE CAR TO PUT ALL SORTS OF BELLS AND WHISTLES ON IT, AND THEY'RE DOING IT ON THEIR BODIES.

says WHAT'S INTERESTING IS I ACTUALLY KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROSTHETIC ARMS OR LEGS AND THEY'RE STARTING TO BECOME INSTAGRAM CELEBRITIES AND IT'S... SAMSUNG WILL HIRE THEM TO DO A COMMERCIAL AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST SIMILAR TO WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING WITH DRAG QUEENS WHO USED TO BE NOT SO COOL BUT NOW THEY'RE VERY COOL AND IT'S OKAY TO BE DIFFERENT, IN FACT IT'S COOL TO BE DIFFERENT. THAT KIND OF THING.

Steve says LEE, IS THERE AN ECONOMIC ANGLE BEHIND WHAT YOU'RE DOING?

Lee says AN ECONOMIC ANGLE?

Steve says AS IN DOES IT HELP PAY THE BILLS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY.

Lee says OH, ABSOLUTELY NOT, NO. AND KIND OF LIKE TAMARA SAID, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE TIME I FORGET ABOUT THE IMPLANTS I HAVE. YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY, LIKE, SOMETIMES THEY'RE OVERWHELMINGLY, LIKE, ANTICLIMACTIC AND DISAPPOINTING. WHEN I FIRST GOT MY MAGNET, EVERYBODY IS LIKE, OH, YOU'RE GOING TO EXPERIENCE THIS WHOLE NEW WORLD OF MAGNETIC FIELDS AND EVERYTHING LIKE THAT. MOST OF WHAT I DO IS PICK UP SMALL CANADIAN CHANGE. ONLY CANADIAN CHANGE, BECAUSE IT'S MAGNETIC.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM GOING THROUGH AIRPORT SCANNERS?

Lee says NO. AGAIN, LIKE ALMOST A LITTLE BIT DISAPPOINTING, YOU KNOW? IT'S SO INTEGRATED INTO MY BODY AND MY LIFE THAT I TRULY NEVER THINK ABOUT IT.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S ART AND WHAT'S NOT WITH YOU AT THE MOMENT, SO I'M GOING TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION, OKAY? YOU'VE GOT WHAT LOOKS LIKE A STUD UNDERNEATH YOUR NECK THERE. WHAT IS THAT?

Lee says YEAH, THIS IS PART OF A CYBORG EXPERIMENT THAT I'M DOING. BASICALLY THERE'S AN LED IMPLANTED UNDERNEATH THIS, AND THIS IS... IT'S CALLED A TRANSDERMAL IMPLANT AND IT'S MADE TO HOLD A CUSTOM CIRCUIT BOARD THAT I'M IN THE PROCESS OF PRODUCING THAT'S GOING TO LIGHT UP AN LED THAT IS UNDERNEATH IT, EMBEDDED INSIDE.

Steve says SO THAT IS NOT STUCK TO YOU, YOU'VE BROKEN THE SKIN THERE?

Lee says YEAH, YEAH. THERE WAS ANOTHER INCISION AND IT WAS SPLIT UNDERNEATH AND THEN STITCHED UP AND... YEAH.

Steve says OKAY. WE'RE LEARNING A LOT TODAY.

(LAUGHING)

Steve says ISABEL, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT... WELL, HE CALLS HIMSELF THE WORLD'S FIRST CYBORG AND THIS IS KEVIN WARWICK. LET'S PLAY THIS CLIP FIRST AND WE'LL COME BACK AND CHAT ABOUT HIM, OKAY? THIS IS FOOTAGE OF HIM FROM 2002, IT WAS FEATURED IN THE BODY HACKING EPISODE OF TIMOTHY CAULFIELD'S A USER'S GUIDE TO CHEATING DEATH AND HE'S HAVING A CHIP SURGICALLY IMPLANTED INTO HIS ARM. OKAY. WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?

A short blurred clip shows physicians operating on a human arm.

Isabel says KEVIN WARWICK IS A VERY INTERESTING CHARACTER IN THAT HE IS ONE OF THE FIRST TO IMPLANT TECHNOLOGY UNDER THE SKIN. HE'S ENGAGED IN VISCERAL INTERACTION OF TECHNOLOGY IN THE BODY VERY EARLY ON. AND HE WAS REALLY OUTSPOKEN AT THE TIME ABOUT THIS IDEA OF BETTERING HUMANS OR BETTERING THE HUMAN BODY AND NOT BEING AFRAID TO DO THAT.

Steve says WHAT MAKES THIS BETTER?

Isabel says WELL, HE WANTED TO SHOW THAT YOU COULD... HE IMPLANTED A CHIP INTO HIS ARM AND HE WAS ABLE TO USE... MOVE, YOU KNOW, OPEN DOORS, COMMUNICATE WITH HIS WIFE, WHO ALSO HAD AN IMPLANTED CHIP IN HER ARM, WORK ON WHAT I WOULD CALL SORT OF A DIGITAL TELEKINESIS, SO HE COULD THINK AND OPERATE MUSCLES IN HIS ARM AND ENACT CHANGES THROUGH THIS CONNECTION. WHAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT KEVIN WARWICK HE WASN'T AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT THAT WE HAVE TO EVOLVE AROUND HUMAN SUBJECTIVITY OR THAT WE COULD BETTER HUMANITY THROUGH THIS KIND OF INTERACTION OR THIS INTEGRATION WITH TECHNOLOGY, AND SOME OF HIS VIEWS WERE CONTROVERSIAL. NOT EVERYBODY AGREED WITH HIM. AND HE'S STILL TALKING ABOUT THAT TODAY, ESPECIALLY IN TERMS OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, RIGHT? HOW ARE WE GOING TO, SAY, IMPLANT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE OR HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEAL WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AS ANOTHER SORT OF BODILY INTEGRATION THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH. SO HE WAS THE FIRST TO TALK ABOUT IT.

Steve says CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT THE THING IN HIS ARM. HE AND HIS WIFE BOTH HAVE SOMETHING IMPLANTED IN THEIR ARM. IS IT A KIND OF TELEPATHY THAT THEY CAN DO?

Isabel says IT WAS AROUND 2002, 2003... I THINK HE'S TAKEN IT OUT NOW. BUT IT WAS INTEGRATED WITH THE MUSCLES IN HIS ARM SO THAT WHEN HE MOVED HIS MUSCLES, HE WAS ABLE TO MOVE, YOU KNOW, OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE WORLD AROUND HIM, IN HIS LAB. BUT HE ALSO TRIED TO WORK WITH FEELINGS AND AFFECTS. WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO EXCHANGE IDEAS AND FEELINGS, AND HE TALKED AND WROTE A LOT ABOUT THAT. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY... WE'RE COMING TO TERMS WITH NOW, RIGHT, AFFECT AND, FOR EXAMPLE, WEARABLES ARE TRYING TO CAPTURE OUR EMOTIONS AND OUR... OUR EMOTIONAL OUTPUT AND ENCODE IT AND DECODE IT FOR CURRENT TECHNOLOGIES.

Steve says ARE BUSINESSES JUMPING ON THIS IN SOME WAY YET?

Isabel says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says HOW SO?

Isabel says FACEBOOK. BRAIN COMPUTER INTERACTION AND AFFECTIVE COMPUTING, WHICH IS DECODING EMOTIONS, HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME. BUT RIGHT NOW MARK ZUCKERBERG IS TALKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF BRINGING COMPUTER INTERACTION THAT CAN DECODE THOUGHTS AND DECODE TYPING SO THAT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, INSTEAD OF WRITING MESSAGES, THEY WILL THINK THEIR MESSAGES. SO HE'S WORKING... HE'S OFTEN TALKING LATELY ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF TECHNOLOGIES.

Steve says CAN YOU IMAGINE THIS HAPPENING IN OUR LIFETIME WHERE YOU JUST THINK IT AND IT SHOWS UP ON THE SCREEN?

Isabel says I'VE BEEN RESEARCHING IT FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND SO I'M SEEING THAT THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT GOING ON CONCERNING BRAIN COMPUTER INTERACTION. SO ABSOLUTELY. AND ESPECIALLY IF FACEBOOK IS BACKING THIS IDEA. RIGHT NOW THEY'RE WORKING WITH WEARABLES. BUT THROUGH SOME OF THE RESEARCH PROCESSES, THEY'RE USING UNUSUALLY IMPLANTS TO HELP IN THE RESEARCH TOWARDS DEVELOPING THESE KINDS OF TECHNOLOGIES.

Steve says TAMARA, HOW ADVISABLE IS THIS, IN YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Cyborg laws."

Tamara says I'M... I'M HESITANT ON THE BRAIN COMPUTER INTERFACE, BCI, IT'S OFTEN REFERRED TO. AND I DON'T LIKE CORPORATIONS BEING INVOLVED. THAT IS, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I DO WORK WITH THE PEOPLE THAT I WORK WITH. WE'RE, YOU KNOW, PRETTY SMALL. WE CARE A LOT ABOUT OUR OWN DATA PRIVACY. I DON'T WANT EVERYBODY'S INFORMATION OUT THERE ALL THE TIME AT THE MERCY OF THIRD PARTIES. I BELIEVE WE SHOULD CONTROL OUR OWN DATA, AND DATA GENERATED BY YOUR OWN BODY SHOULD BELONG TO YOU, AND YOU SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE AND DECISION OF WHO USES THAT INFORMATION.

Steve says LEE...

Isabel says THAT'S NOT CURRENTLY OUR WORLD.

Steve says ARE YOU SIMILARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Lee says YEAH. I THINK IT'S INEVITABLE THAT A LOT OF THESE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN THE COMMUNITY IS LIKE EXPERIMENTATION. A LOT OF THEM ARE HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, IN VERY CLOSE COMMUNITIES WHO ARE EXPLORING, BUT LIKE ALL TECHNOLOGIES, THEY START THERE AND, YOU KNOW, THE POTENTIAL WILL BE TAPPED AND WILL BE MONETIZED, EVEN THOUGH NOW I'M NOT MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT I PROBABLY WON'T BE THE PERSON TO MAKE MONEY OFF OF IT. BUT, DEFINITELY. LIKE, WHILE THE TECHNOLOGIES WE HAVE IMPLANTED ARE STILL VERY, VERY SIMPLE, YOU KNOW, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND KNOWING HOW FAST THINGS PROGRESS, LIKE, ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE AND VERY CONCERNING.

Steve says ISABEL, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH YOU ON THAT BECAUSE FACEBOOK HAS OBVIOUSLY COME UNDER A LOT OF FIRE FOR THE WAY IT MONETIZES AND MINES OUR PRIVATE DATA.

Isabel says YEAH.

Steve says THIS FEELS LIKE THE NEXT GENERATION UP OF DOING THAT. IS THERE WORRY OUT THERE?

Isabel says YEAH. I THINK THERE'S WORRY. AND I THINK THE TIME IS NOW TO ASK THESE KINDS OF IMPORTANT CRITICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING. THEY'RE ALSO... YOU KNOW, NOT JUST FACEBOOK. ALL OF THE BIG TECH CORPORATIONS ARE, LET'S SAY, DABBLING IN THE IDEA OF MANIPULATING ACTIVITIES, MANIPULATING SOCIAL INTERACTION AMONGST EVERYDAY PARTICIPANTS. AND I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY THE TIME TO ASK NOW WITH TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE GOING TO FURTHER INTEGRATE BRAINS AND COMPUTERS OR, SAY, EMOTIONS AND AFFECT AND COMPUTERS, DEFINITELY.

Steve says TAMARA, THE LAWS ARE ALMOST ALWAYS RUNNING BEHIND WHAT TECHNOLOGY IS ABLE TO DO. HOW ABOUT IN THIS SPACE?

Tamara says YES, THEY ARE. SO... CORRECT. THE LAW HAS A DIFFICULT TIME DEALING WITH THE BODY AND PROPERTY BEING PUT TOGETHER. SO THE EXAMPLE I OFTEN LIKE TO GIVE TO PEOPLE IS A PACE MAKER. IT'S A MEDICAL CYBORG TECHNOLOGY. IT'S VERY COMMON NOW. BUT THERE'S LEGAL QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO OWNS THE DEVICE BUT ALSO WHO WOULD OWN THE DATA COMING FROM THESE DEVICES BECAUSE MOST OF THEM ARE, YOU KNOW, BLUETOOTH OR WI-FI ENABLED SO YOUR DOCTOR CAN GET UPDATES OF WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON WITH THE DEVICE SINCE YOUR LAST APPOINTMENT. BUT OWNERSHIP OF THE DEVICE AND THAT DATA IS STILL A LEGAL GRAY AREA AND THESE HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES. SO NOW WHAT HAPPENS IF THIS IS NOT A MEDICALLY REQUIRED TECHNOLOGY BUT IS FOR FUN OR MILD CONVENIENCE OR FUNCTION RIGHT NOW BECAUSE MY CHIPS REALLY ARE MILDLY CONVENIENT. BUT THERE WILL COME A TIME WHERE THEY ARE MORE FUNCTIONAL, RIGHT? THE TECHNOLOGY WILL EXPLODE. BUT I AGREE. WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT NOW, AND THAT'S SORT OF WHERE I WORK, YOU KNOW, IN MY Ph.D. AND WITH MY RECENT MASTER'S THESIS IN LEGAL STUDIES. I ONLY KNOW OF ONE REAL COURT CASE INVOLVING IMPLANTED TECHNOLOGY AND IT COMES OUT OF AUSTRALIA.

Steve says AND WHAT'S THE GIST OF THAT SITUATION?

Tamara says SO THERE'S A GENTLEMAN DOWN THERE WHO KEEPS LOSING HIS TRANSIT CARD, SO HE HAD THE CHIP IMPLANTED IN HIS HAND. HE STILL, YOU KNOW, UPDATED HIS PAYMENT SYSTEM. HE WAS PAYING FOR HIS TRANSIT RIDES. HE WASN'T TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING. BUT WHEN HE WAS ON THE TRAIN OR A BUS ONE DAY, HE COULDN'T PROVIDE PROOF OF PAYMENT TO THE TRANSIT AUTHORITIES, AND WHEN IT BECAME APPARENT THAT HE HAD IMPLANTED THE CHIP FROM THE TRANSIT CARD, THEY DID TAKE HIM TO COURT. AS IT ALL CAME OUT IN THE WASH, HE WAS, YOU KNOW, CHARGED FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE PROOF OF PAYMENT, BUT THEY ACTUALLY SORT OF GOT HIM ON VIOLATING THE TERMS OF SERVICE OF THE TRANSIT CARD BECAUSE HE HAD TO CUT IT OPEN TO GET THE CHIP OUT, AND IF YOU'VE EVER READ, AND I SUGGEST YOU DO, ANY TERMS OF SERVICE FOR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, INCLUDING OUR PRESTO CARDS, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DAMAGE THEM IN ANY WAY. THAT AUTOMATICALLY VIOLATES THEIR TERMS OF SERVICE. AND SO THE TRANSIT AUTHORITY DID REMOTELY SHUT DOWN THE CHIP THAT WAS IMPLANTED IN HIS HAND.

Steve says PARTY POOPERS, EH?

Tamara says A LITTLE BIT. A LITTLE BIT. HE HAD TO GO GET A NEW CARD, YOU KNOW, ANOTHER 6 dollars TO REPLACE THAT.

Steve says ROB, TELL ME ABOUT THE CONTENT THAT IS CREATED BY YOUR... WHAT DO YOU CALL IT? LIKE YOUR CYBER EYE...

Rob says EYEBORG OR CAMERA EYE OR WHATEVER.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW IF THE LAW IS CLEARLY ABOUT WHO OWNS THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS ON THE CONTENT THAT YOU ARE CREATING, BUT, LIKE, IS ALL THAT FIGURED OUT IN YOUR EYE?

Rob says IT'S PRETTY MUCH THE SAME LAWS THAT APPLY TO YOU USING YOUR NEW iPHONE THAT YOU REALLY LIKE.

Steve says NOT YET, BUT I'M WORKING ON IT.

Rob says MAYBE. BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS A DISCRETE CAMERA NOW AND EVERYBODY HAS THE ABILITY ACTUALLY TO RECORD CONVERSATIONS DISCREETLY. THE REAL QUESTION IS, LIKE, HOW DO PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT IT IF YOU'RE CONSTANTLY FILMING THE WORLD? WHEN GOOGLE GLASS TRIED TO DO IT, PEOPLE GOT CALLED GLASSHOLES AND THEY HAD TO PULL THAT PRODUCT BACK BECAUSE THERE'S A PARTICULARLY... PEOPLE GET PARTICULARLY UPSET THAT THEY'RE CAUGHT ON VIDEO OR COULD BE CAUGHT ON VIDEO DOING WHATEVER THEY'RE DOING, PARTICULARLY AT BARS, IT SEEMS, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE GLASSHOLE MOVEMENT REALLY TOOK ROOT IN SAN FRANCISCO, I BELIEVE. WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT I HAVE A RIGHT TO REPLACE MY EYE WITH A CAMERA, BUT BECAUSE I'M DOING THAT, THAT ENCROACHES ON OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS TO PRIVACY. BUT MY ATTITUDE IS, I'M A FILMMAKER, I DO DOCUMENTARIES. IF I USE SOMEBODY'S FOOTAGE ANYWHERE, I ASK FOR A RELEASE FORM, AS USUAL. BUT AS WE GO FORWARD AND THERE'S MAYBE A BRAIN-TO-MACHINE INTERFACE THAT SORT OF COLLECTS VISUAL DATA NATURALLY, WE MIGHT ALL TURN INTO EYEBORGS, AND IF THE EYE IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE WINDOW TO THE SOUL, NOT TO YouTube. THAT UPSETS PEOPLE. BUT I THINK THAT'S THE WAY IT'S GOING.

Steve says OKAY. CAN YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND SOME OF THESE ETHICAL QUERIES HERE. IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE ABOUT TO EMBARK UPON A TIME IN OUR COMMON DAILY LIVES WHERE WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO COMPLETELY FORGET ABOUT THE NOTION ABOUT AN ASSUMPTION OF PRIVACY. IT FEELS THAT WAY.

Tamara says YEAH. I THINK FOLLOWING ON SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ROB SAID. SO HE'S TALKING ABOUT THAT HE SORT OF STILL IS MAINTAINING CONTROL OVER THE DATA THAT HE'S USING AND HE'S IMPLANTED TECHNOLOGY PERSONALLY AND HE'S IN CONTROL OF IT. BUT ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE NEXT PHASE WILL BE SORT OF THIS BODY NETWORKS ARE ONE OF THE THINGS I'M STUDYING, RIGHT? THE IDEA THAT WE MAY HAVE MULTIPLE IMPLANTS IN THE BODY THAT WILL BE CONNECTED AND ABLE TO TRANSMIT DATA TO EXTERNAL DATA PLATFORMS, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN IN RESEARCH FOR A DECADE AND IS BEING PLANNED FOR US. AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN THERE IS ONCE IMPLANTS TALK TO EACH OTHER THROUGH INTRABODY COMMUNICATION, WE WILL HAVE... WE WILL HAVE MUCH LESS OF AN ABILITY TO CONTROL OUR DATA. AND THINGS LIKE... THE FLIPSIDE OF THAT IS, THINGS LIKE REMOTE MONITORING OF PATIENTS WILL BE ENABLED, WE'LL BE ABLE TO MONITOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE A VIRUS FROM A REMOTE LOCATION.

The caption changes to "The next frontier?"

Steve says SEE, THAT FEELS LIKE... THAT FEELS LIKE A VERY CONSTRUCTIVE USEFUL THING TO BE ABLE TO DO.

Tamara says ABSOLUTELY, RIGHT?

Steve says NOT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM BEING ABLE TO PICK UP DIMES WITH YOUR RING FINGER, BUT IT'S A LITTLE MORE.

Tamara says RIGHT. WE WILL BE ABLE TO DO REMOTE PATIENT MONITORING THROUGH THESE BODY TECHNOLOGIES THAT HAVE BASICALLY CONVERGED AND WIRELESS WILL HAVE ADVANCED TO THE POINT THAT THAT IS USEFUL. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE'RE NOT ASKING THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS THAT TAMARA IS ASKING ABOUT CONTROL OVER DATA, OR ARE WE GOING TO HAVE... YOU KNOW, WHAT ABOUT POLICY? WHAT ABOUT REGULATIONS? WILL WE HAVE... WILL WE BEGIN TO ETHICALLY ALIGN THE DESIGN OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES FROM THE BEGINNING SO THAT, YOU KNOW, HUMANS STILL HAVE AUTONOMY OVER THEIR DATA, ARE ABLE TO CONTROL WHAT WE DO WITH IT.

Steve says WHO IN GOVERNMENT IS ASKING ANY OF THOSE QUESTIONS?

Tamara says I ACTUALLY THINK GOVERNMENT IS ASKING THESE QUESTIONS. I THINK THEY ARE ASKING... THERE'S ALSO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ARE BEGINNING TO ASK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS... WE NEED GLOBAL GOVERNANCE OVER THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY, RIGHT? BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY AN INTERNATIONAL PHENOMENA THAT'S HAPPENING. BUT I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK WE HAVE THE ANSWERS YET.

Steve says ONE MORE FOLLOW-UP FOR YOU. THESE PEOPLE HAVE ALL... I MEAN, I THINK THEY LOVE THIS SUBJECT AS MUCH AS YOU DO, BUT THEY CLEARLY HAVE TAKEN THE NEXT STEP.

Tamara says YES.

Steve says YOU HAVE NOT, RIGHT? IS I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE ANYWAY.

Tamara says WELL, I MEAN, I'VE RESEARCHED WHAT ROB HAS BEEN DOING FOR A LONG TIME. I MET ROB IN 2012. AND I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT AT THE TIME OF IMPLANTING... ALSO IMPLANTING RFID CHIP.

Steve says RADIO FREQUENCY IDENTIFICATION. YOU THOUGHT ABOUT DOING IT?

Tamara says ABSOLUTELY AND I SPOKE TO AMAL GRAAFSTRA... I MIGHT NOT BE PRONOUNCING HIS NAME CORRECTLY ABOUT THAT... AND DECIDED THAT I NEEDED OBJECTIVE DISTANCE FROM MY RESEARCH SUBJECTS, BUT I'M VERY INTERESTED IN HEARING ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES. THAT'S AN ETHNOGRAPHIC RESEARCH STUDY TO TALK TO THEM AND UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM, BUT I HAVEN'T.

Steve says HAVE YOU... IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVEN'T COMPLETELY SHUT THE DOOR ON DOING IT AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE, THOUGH?

Tamara says I ACTUALLY... I BELIEVE, FOR BETTER OR WORSE, ALL OF US WILL BE IMPLANTING TECH. ABSOLUTELY. THINK OF ELON MUSK IS DEVELOPING NEURAL IMPLANTS. HE'S DEVELOPING, YOU KNOW, A NEURAL LACE, A VERY TINY TECHNOLOGY TO BE IMPLANTED IN THE BRAIN. THAT MIGHT TAKE DECADES TO ACTUALLY HAPPEN. BUT TO ME THE SIGNS ARE THERE THAT TECHNOLOGY IMPLANTS WILL BE NORMALIZED AS AN EVERYDAY PRACTICE.

Steve says TAMARA, LET ME TRY THIS WITH YOU. LAST YEAR APPARENTLY THERE'S A SCIENTIST CALLED AUBREY DE GREY THAT SOMEBODY ALIVE TODAY... TODAY... IS GOING TO LIVE TO BE A THOUSAND BECAUSE OF ALL OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. AND I WONDER WHETHER AVOIDING MORTALITY IS SOMETHING THAT... THAT THIS COMMUNITY THAT YOU ARE A PART OF, WHETHER THAT'S A PRIORITY FOR THEM?

Tamara says FOR SOME, YES. THERE'S A MOVEMENT KNOWN AS TRANS HUMANISM. I DON'T ALIGN MYSELF WITHIN THAT GROUP, BUT SOME OF US DO, FOR SURE. YES, I KNOW A PERSON WHO HAS STATED PUBLICLY AND VOCALLY THAT IF HE COULD RIGHT NOW HE WOULD REPLACE AS MUCH OF HIS ORGANIC MATERIAL, HIS BODY, WITH MACHINERY, IN ORDER TO LIVE, IF NOT FOREVER, AT LEAST A VERY, VERY LONG TIME. OTHERS... WELL, I WORRY ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I AM A PART OF THE COMMUNITY, BUT I AM AN ACADEMIC AS WELL, AND SO I... I LIKE TO THINK I STAY AS OBJECTIVE AS I CAN WHILE STILL BEING A PART OF THE COMMUNITY, AND I WORRY ABOUT SOME OF THESE IDEAS. BUT AS LONG AS IMPLANTS ARE VOLUNTARY, FULLY CONSENTED TO, THE PERSON WHO GETS THEM KNOWS WHAT'S HAPPENING, I'M OKAY WITH IT. IT'S WHEN WE START MOVING TOWARDS, SAY, FORCING CHIPS OR FEELING THAT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A REQUIRED OPTION, THAT I GET A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE THEM MYSELF. AND EVOLUTIONARY-WISE, YEAH, SOME PEOPLE DO. THEY WANT TO CHANGE THE HUMAN BODY. THEY FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION IS MOVING A LITTLE TOO SLOW, AND IF WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THIS MAGICAL FUTURE WHERE WE ALL HAVE JET PACKS AND WE'RE FLYING AROUND, WE NEED THESE BEGINNING STEPS NOW TO KNOW HOW OUR BODIES INCORPORATE TECHNOLOGY LONG TERM. AND THAT'S SORT OF WHERE I PLACE MYSELF. I'M HELPING, YOU KNOW, FUTURE PEOPLE FIGURE OUT HOW LONG YOU CAN HAVE CERTAIN TYPES OF TECH IN THE BODY.

Steve says LEE, HOW ABOUT YOU? WHAT'S, IN YOUR VIEW, THE ADVISABILITY OF... I WAS GOING TO SAY MESSING WITH. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD. BUT LET'S SAY TRYING TO HAVE A TECHNOLOGICAL IMPACT ON EVOLUTION?

Lee says I MEAN, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE BE REALISTIC WITH OURSELVES ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE AND THE STATE THAT IT'S AT RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW? THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION AROUND, LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHAT KINDS OF THINGS WE'RE PUTTING IN OUR BODY AND, LIKE, HOW THAT INTERACTS WITH US PHYSICALLY. SOME PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY CHOOSE TO IMPLANT LARGER PIECES OF TECHNOLOGY. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THOSE, YOU CAN SORT OF SEE THAT THE TECHNOLOGY IS NOT QUITE THERE FOR US YET. AND OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO EVOLVE VERY QUICKLY AND THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE. BUT I THINK WE'RE VERY FAR OFF AND THE TASKS THAT THE THINGS WE CAN PUT IN OUR BODIES CAN DO RIGHT NOW ARE PRETTY SIMPLE AND, YOU KNOW, PROLONGED LIFE AND CHANGING THE COURSE OF EVOLUTION, THESE ARE VERY BIG THINGS, AND RIGHT NOW I WOULD SAY WE'RE AT THE BEGINNING OF SOMETHING INTERESTING, BUT DEFINITELY THE BEGINNING.

Steve says WELL, LET'S GO DOWN THE ROAD. ROB, MY FELLOW STAR TREK NERD...

Rob says YES.

Steve says DO YOU WORRY... THE NEXT GENERATION LAID IT OUT THERE FOR US. BORG. THE BORG. WE ALL BECOME PART OF A COLLECTIVE BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN CONSUMED BY TECHNOLOGY.

Rob says PICARD IS TANGLING WITH THEM AGAIN, AS YOU WELL KNOW.

Steve says YES.

Rob says I THINK IT'S INEVITABLE. COMPUTERS STARTED IN A GIANT ROOM IN A UNIVERSITY. THEN IT WENT TO YOUR DESK TOP. THEN IT WENT TO YOUR LAP. THEN IT WENT TO YOUR POCKET. EVERYONE TAKES IT WITH THEM INTO THE SHOWER, TO BED, IN THE BATHROOM...

Steve says IN THE SHOWER?

Rob says MAYBE NOT YOU BUT MOST PEOPLE I KNOW HAVE... IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT'S ATTACHED.

Steve says C'MON.

Rob says BUT YOU'RE STILL USING YOUR THUMBS.

Steve says YOU USE YOUR IPHONE IN THE SHOWER?

Rob says EVERYBODY DOES EXCEPT FOR YOU, APPARENTLY.

[LAUGHTER]

Rob says A LOT OF PEOPLE DO. CAN WE TAKE A QUICK SURVEY? WHATEVER. SO IT'S MOVING TOWARDS THE BODY. MEANWHILE, QUANTUM TURBO-CHARGED A.I. IS WAITING, AND PEOPLE LIKE ELON MUSK BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE TO GET THE NEURAL LINK TO KEEP UP AND IT IS A PART OF EVOLUTION. LIKE, WE'RE SO DEPENDENT ON OUR SMARTPHONES AND SO INTEGRATED WITH THE DATA NOW THAT TO KEEP USING YOUR THUMBS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. IT'S GOING TO COME FURTHER INTO THE BODY.

Steve says ISABEL, DOES THIS CHANGE OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE HUMAN?

Isabel says WELL, I ALSO AGREE THAT IT'S REALLY ABOUT TRANS-HUMANISM AND POST HUMANISM. TRANSHUMANISM IS THE SORT OF IDEOLOGY THAT WE SHOULD BE TRYING TO BETTER HUMANITY WITH TECHNOLOGY OR ANY KIND OF SCIENTIFIC ENHANCEMENT. AND POST HUMANISM IS THE SORT OF IDEA THAT WE EVOLVED BEYOND THE CATEGORY HUMAN. BUT I THINK I'D LIKE TO FOLLOW ROB'S COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PUSH FOR AUTOMATION, RIGHT? WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, REALLY, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TO ME IS AS MUCH A TECHNOLOGY... IS AS MUCH AN IDEOLOGY AS IT IS A TECHNOLOGY, RIGHT? IT'S CONVINCING US THAT WE NEED TO AUTOMATE ALL OF OUR PROCESSES THROUGH LARGE CORPORATIONS THAT ARE SORT OF PUBLICIZING THE IDEA THAT WE NEED TO DO SO. SO I THINK IN SOME WAYS WE REALLY HAVE TO WATCH THAT WE'VE BEEN GOADED TOWARDS SOME OF THESE IDEAS TO ENHANCE OR BETTER OURSELVES.

Steve says GOADED BY WHOM?

Isabel says WELL, I THINK THIS... I MEAN, I WAS TALKING ABOUT A.I. I SEE A.I. AS SORT OF AN IMPOSED RACE, RIGHT? WE TREAT IT AS IF IT'S A RACE TO BEAT... TO BEAT OTHER... LIKE, AS A RACE TO GET THERE FIRST, RIGHT? WE'RE CONSTANTLY RACING TOWARDS AN A.I. FUTURE. AND THAT'S NOT REAL. THAT'S IMPOSED ON US BY, I THINK, PUBLICITY, JOURNALISTS... SORRY... YOU KNOW, TECHNOLOGY HOUSES, GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE COMPETING WITH OTHER GOVERNMENTS, RIGHT? THERE'S THIS MOMENTUM TOWARDS GETTING THERE, GETTING TO A FINISH LINE THAT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST.

Steve says SO 60 YEARS AGO, IT WAS SPUTNIK, AND THEN THE RACE TO THE MOON, AND NOW IT'S THE RACE TO ALL OF THIS.

Isabel says ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says HUH. TAMARA, I'VE GOT A MINUTE LEFT HERE... TAMARA, EXCUSE ME. CAN YOU TELL ME YOUR VIEW OF THE SORT OF ETHICAL, YOU KNOW, THE ETHICAL WALK THAT THIS COMMUNITY IS DOING NOW AND HOW COMFORTABLE YOU ARE WITH IT?

Tamara says THERE IS A GROUP WITHIN THE COMMUNITY THAT I'M, YOU KNOW, MOST FAMILIAR WITH, THAT ARE WORKING ON ETHICAL GUIDELINES. YOU KNOW, THEY'RE STILL HAMMERING THEM OUT. WE'RE TAKING FEEDBACK FROM MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY TO SEE WHAT WE WANT TO DO. WE'RE ON THE VERGE OF I THINK FORMING A REAL SORT OF SUB CULTURE. I SPENT THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS RESEARCHING THAT. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE PLACES WE COMMUNICATE. AND WE ARE STARTING TO SEE A NEED FOR SAFETY, FOR I CALL IT REGULATION. I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE TO GET PERMISSION TO DO THIS, BUT I WANT US TO BE ABLE TO DO IT SAFELY IF WE DO CHOOSE TO DO IT. SO AS LONG AS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE IN FOR AND YOU READ YOUR TERMS OF SERVICE, THEN I SAY GO FOR IT.

Steve says RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, EH? I SEEM TO HAVE HEARD THAT ON AN EPISODE OF STAR TREK SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY.

Tamara says I'M NOT EVEN A TREK FAN.

The caption changes to "Producer: Patricia Kozicka, @TrishKozicka."

Steve says THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING. I WANT TO THANK ALL FOUR OF YOU FOR COMING ONTO OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT. TAMARA BANBURY, THE SO-CALLED VOLUNTARY CYBORG, A PhD STUDENT AT CARLETON UNIVERSITY, ISABEL PEDERSEN, LOOK FOR HER NEW BOOK, "EMBODIED COMPUTING: WEARABLES, IMPLANTABLES, EMBEDDABLES, INGESTIBLES." LEE WILKINS, THE CYBORG ARTIST, ADJUNCT FACULTY AT OCAD AND RYERSON. AND ROB SPENCE, THE DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER AND THE WORLD'S ONLY WIRELESS VIDEO PROSTHETIC EYE CAMERA. FASCINATING STUFF. THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.

Watch: Cyborgs: Melding Man and Machine