Transcript: Regulating Canada's Digital Future | Feb 06, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Regulating Canada's digital future. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IN THE LAST TWO PLUS DECADES, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE OF CANADIAN RADIO, TELEVISION AND DIGITAL COMMUNICATIONS HAS SHIFTED: FROM LEGACY BROADCASTING AND DIAL-UP INTERNET TO AN INTERCONNECTED MEDIA ECOSYSTEM THAT CROSSES PLATFORMS AND BORDERS FREELY. AND THAT MEANS, ACCORDING TO A FEDERALLY-APPOINTED REVIEW PANEL, HOW CANADA REGULATES AND OVERSEES THOSE SECTORS IS DUE FOR A SWEEPING OVERHAUL. LET'S GET INTO THAT, WITH, IN REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN: PETER MENZIES. HE'S SENIOR FELLOW WITH THE MACDONALD-LAURIER INSTITUTE AND A FORMER VICE-CHAIR FOR THE CRTC... THAT'S THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION...

Peter is in his fifties, balding, with a trimmed beard. He's wearing glasses and a striped blue shirt.

Steve continues IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL: MURAD HEMMADI, REPORTER FOR THE LOGIC. THAT'S A NEW DIGITAL NEWS SERVICE FOCUSING ON THE INNOVATION ECONOMY...

Murad is in his thirties, clean-shaven, with short black hair. He's wearing glasses, a pink plaid suit and a gray tie.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO: JANET YALE. SHE IS THE CHAIR OF THE BROADCASTING AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS LEGISLATIVE REVIEW PANEL THAT PRESENTED ITS REPORT WITH 97 RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT JUST LAST WEEK...

Janet is in her sixties, with short wavy blond hair. She's wearing a red blazer, a black blouse and a silver necklace.

Steve continues JANET YALE, WE'RE GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE IN OUR TORONTO STUDIO, AND TO PETER AND MURAD IN POINTS BEYOND, THANKS FOR JOINING US AS WELL. I'LL TAKE THE FIRST FEW MINUTES JUST TO SPEAK TO THE CHAIR OF THE PANEL TO GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU'VE RECOMMENDED IN THAT ENORMOUS TOME ON THE TABLE THERE, ADMITTEDLY IN FRENCH AND ENGLISH, SO IT'S ONLY HALF AS BIG. WHEN'S THE LAST TIME THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TOOK A REALLY GOOD LONG, HARD, CLOSE LOOK AT BROADCASTING AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY?

The caption changes to "Janet Yale. Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel Chair."
Then, it changes again to "Changing communications landscape."

Janet says BOTH PIECES OF LEGISLATION, THE BROADCASTING AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT, AS WELL AS THE THIRD PIECE OF LEGISLATION, THE RADIO COMMUNICATION ACT, HAVE BEEN IN PLACE FOR DECADES, AND SO IT IS AMAZING IN A WAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT RECOGNIZED THAT RATHER THAN REVIEWING THESE PIECES OF LEGISLATION IN ISOLATION THAT THEY RECOGNIZE THAT GIVEN THE WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE USING TECHNOLOGY AND THE ADVANCES IN TECHNOLOGY, IT WAS IMPORTANT TO REVIEW THEM HOLISTICALLY AT THE SAME TIME. SO OUR TERMS OF REFERENCE WERE 15 PAGES, BUT 31 QUESTIONS.

Steve says HMM, SO FAIR TO SAY IT'S BEEN DECADES SINCE ANYBODY TOOK A COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT THIS?

Janet says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says AND THE WORLD HAS CHANGED HOW IN THE LAST FEW DECADES SINCE THOSE ORIGINAL PIECES WERE PUT IN PLACE?

Janet says ABSOLUTELY. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE THOUGHT ABOUT WAS THE CHANGES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE ALREADY IN TERMS OF THE EVOLUTION ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY, THAT THE CHANGES THAT WE CAN'T KNOW AND ANTICIPATE FOR THE FUTURE. SO OUR PERSPECTIVE WAS TO THINK ABOUT BOTH FROM AN INDIVIDUAL PERSPECTIVE, AN ECONOMIC PROSPERITY PERSPECTIVE, AND A CULTURAL POLICY PERSPECTIVE, HOW DO THESE AMAZING CHANGES AND THE WAY IN WHICH TECHNOLOGY IS EVOLVING AND THE BUSINESS MODELS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM CHANGING, HOW DO WE THINK ABOUT A COMPREHENSIVE LEGISLATIVE FRAMEWORK AND REGULATORY ROAD MAP THAT IS BOTH FLEXIBLE IN TERMS OF THE EVER-ENDING PACE OF CHANGE, BUT ABLE TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES IN A FLEXIBLE BUT COMPREHENSIVE WAY.

Steve says IS IT FAIR TO SAY WE GOT A BUNCH OF LAWS IN PLACE RIGHT NOW THAT WERE PUT ON THE BOOKS BEFORE THE INTERNET WAS INVENTED AND, THEREFORE, THEY'RE NOT TERRIBLY HELPFUL IN THIS DIGITAL AGE IN WHICH WE LIVE?

The caption changes to "Janet Yale, @JanetYale1."

Janet says WELL, ABSOLUTELY. ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAD TO DEAL WITH ARE THE CHALLENGES THAT THAT CREATES AND THE RISK THAT CREATES FOR INDIVIDUALS, AS I SAY, BECAUSE BEFORE BROADBAND CONNECTIVITY, PEOPLE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAD TECHNOLOGY IN THEIR HOMES, BUT IT'S NOW BECOME THE CASE, AND WE SAY THIS IN THE REPORT, THAT HAVING BROADBAND CONNECTIVITY ISN'T JUST A LUXURY. IT'S A NECESSITY TO BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE FULLY IN THE ECONOMY, IN SOCIETY, AND SO WE HAVE ON THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS SIDE OF OUR REPORT RECOMMENDATIONS THAT DEAL WITH ACCESS TO AND AFFORDABILITY OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICE, AND INCENTIVES TO ENHANCE AND ADVANCE THE ROLLOUT OF ADVANCED INFRASTRUCTURE SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO MAKE SURE THAT BOTH INDIVIDUALS AND BUSINESSES CAN PROSPER IN THE DIGITAL AGE.

Steve says WE HAVE HAD FOR MANY DECADES AN ORGANIZATION, AN AGENCY OF THE GOVERNMENT IN PLACE CALLED THE CRTC, CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION. GREAT NAME. AND IT'S ESSENTIALLY BEEN THE REGULATOR OF THAT SECTOR FOR ALL OF THOSE DECADES. YOU'VE MADE 97 RECOMMENDATIONS AS TO HOW YOU SEE THE ROLE OF THAT AGENCY CHANGING. PHILOSOPHICALLY, WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AHEAD FOR THE CRTC?

The caption changes to "Rethinking the C.R.T.C."

Janet says WELL, LET ME START BY SAYING THAT FUNDAMENTALLY WE RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS NO LONGER A CLOSED SYSTEM WHERE THE CRTC ACTS AS A GATEKEEPER, WHICH WAS THE OLD MODEL. AND REALLY WE'RE EMBRACING, IN FACT, THE OPEN GLOBAL MARKETPLACE BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY WE BELIEVE THAT INDIVIDUALS AND BUSINESSES SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACCESS CONTENT FROM ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME ON ANY DEVICE OF THEIR CHOOSING.

Steve says SIGNALS DON'T RESPECT COUNTRY BOUNDARIES.

Janet says BOUNDARIES, RIGHT, AND SO THE REGULATORY REGIME NEEDS TO KEEP UP WITH THAT, AND THEN THE ROLE OF THE CRTC IN A WORLD OF ENDLESS CHOICES AND VOICES NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE CANADIAN CHOICES. SO THE ROLE OF THE CRTC IS NO LONGER ONE OF GATEKEEPER, BUT IN A WORLD WHERE WE WANT ALL MEDIA COMMUNICATION ENTITIES, NOT OTHER GLOBAL PLATFORMS, BUT MEDIA COMMUNICATIONS UNDERTAKINGS TO PLAY A ROLE, IF THEY BENEFIT FROM OPERATING IN THE CANADIAN MARKET WITH ADVERTISING AND SUBSCRIPTION REVENUES, THEY SHOULD CONTRIBUTE. AND SO THE CRTC NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE MARKET AND THEN BE ABLE TO ASSESS WHAT ARE THE LIKE-FOR-LIKE CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE VARIOUS PLAYERS. SO A MUCH MORE EXPANDED, MORE PROACTIVE, MORE STRATEGIC ROLE THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO GATHER EVIDENCE, MONITOR WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE MARKET, AND THEN TAKE APPROPRIATE ACTION, IN A VERY LIGHT TOUCH KIND OF WAY BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THE ROLE ISN'T ONE OF GATEKEEPING.

Steve says OKAY, SO ONE LAST THING TO FOLLOW UP ON HERE BEFORE WE GET PETER AND MURAD IN. I HEARD LIGHT TOUCH, BUT I ALSO HEARD MORE PROACTIVE, AND I GUESS WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO UNDERSTAND IS: IS THE REGULATOR THAT YOU SEE OF THE FUTURE SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO BE... WELL, WHICH IS IT? IS IT MORE PROACTIVE OR IS IT LIGHT TOUCH? YOU SEE A MORE ROBUST ROLE FOR THIS ORGANIZATION OR WHAT?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Janet says ABSOLUTELY MORE ROBUST, BUT TODAY, AND HISTORICALLY, THE CRTC HAS TENDED TO REACT TO THE ISSUES OF THE DAY. ON APPLICATION FROM PARTIES, DEALING WITH TRADITIONAL LICENSE RENEWALS AND SO ON. AND GOING FORWARD THEY NEED TO SEE WHAT'S COMING BECAUSE THE PARTIES, THE STAKEHOLDERS ARE PRE-OCCUPIED WITH THE ISSUES OF THE DAY. SO PROACTIVE MEANS BEING MORE EVIDENCE-BASED, MORE RESEARCH-ORIENTED, ENGAGING IN THAT SORT OF STRATEGIC FORESIGHT, BEING MUCH MORE ENGAGED WITH A DIVERSE GROUP OF STAKEHOLDERS THROUGH WHAT WE CALL THE PUBLIC INTEREST COMMITTEE. SO THEY REALLY HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT'S COMING AS OPPOSED TO WHAT IS, AND THEN CAN ANTICIPATE THE WAY IN WHICH THAT CAN CREATE BOTH CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. AGAIN, BUT NOT AS A GATEKEEPER BUT ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES AS THEY COME FORWARD. SO VERY MUCH AN EXPANDED AND REIMAGINED ROLE FOR THE CRTC THAT WE RECOMMEND BE CALLED THE CANADIAN COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION.

Steve says MORE ON THAT IN A SECOND. OKAY, THAT IS THE OVERVIEW. PETER MENZIES, LET ME GIVE YOU THE FIRST WORD IN TERMS OF REACTION HERE SINCE YOU'RE FORMER VICE CHAIR OF THE CRTC. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

The caption changes to "Peter Menzies. Former C.R.T.C. Vice-Chair. Macdonald-Laurier Institute."

Peter says WELL, THERE'S SOME GOOD WORDS THERE, AND I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT IN TERMS OF ACCESS AND AFFORDABILITY, THERE'S SOME GOOD SUGGESTIONS IN THIS REPORT, IN THE RECOMMENDATIONS. I THINK WHAT'S ALARMING, THOUGH, TO MANY PEOPLE IS THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT'S RECOMMENDED THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THAT ALPHA NUMERIC TEXT, IN OTHER WORDS, BASICALLY NEWSPAPERS, TO PUT IT IN COMMON PARLANCE, SHOULD BE DEFINED AS BROADCASTING. AND SECONDLY, I DON'T SEE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS, SPEAKING OF EVIDENCE-BASED, THAT THIS REPORT IS TRYING TO ADDRESS. THERE'S NEVER BEEN A BETTER TIME TO WORK IN THE CANADIAN CREATIVE INDUSTRY THAN TODAY.

Steve says ALL RIGHT. LET ME FOLLOW UP ON THE FIRST THING YOU SAID THERE. NEWSPAPERS SHOULD BE DEFINED AS BROADCASTING. WHAT'S YOUR ISSUE THERE?

The caption changes to "Peter Menzies, @Pagmenzies."

Peter says UMM, WELL, CAN YOU IMAGINE IF YOU DID THAT 25 YEARS AGO? THE ISSUE THERE IS THAT THE INTERNET IS ESSENTIALLY SPEECH, RIGHT? AND YOU'RE ASKING PEOPLE NOW TO CONDUCT THEIR BUSINESS WITH PERMISSION OF A GOVERNMENT AGENCY. NO MATTER HOW LIGHT THE TOUCH, THE TOUCH IS STILL THERE. I MEAN, PART OF MY HISTORY TOO IS BEING A NEWSPAPER EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, AND THE VERY IDEA THAT THE GOVERNMENT, ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY UNDER THE CONTROL OF CABINET APPOINTEES WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF MANAGING MY CONTENT OR EVEN KEEPING AN EYE ON IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED EXTREMELY INVASIVE. AND IN MY VIEW, IT STILL IS. AND ON THE BIGGER POINT IS THAT IT'S NOT NECESSARY, RIGHT? I MEAN, I GET THAT JANET IS TRYING TO TALK ABOUT... TRYING TO PUT RECOMMENDATIONS FORWARD ABOUT THINGS THAT MIGHT BE, BUT THE ARGUMENT THAT THE INTERNET WAS GOING TO BE HARMFUL TO CANADIAN CONTENT, TO CANADIAN CREATORS, HAS BEEN MADE FOR 25 YEARS, AND IT'S BEEN WRONG FOR 25 YEARS. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT IT'S DONE HARM. THE INDUSTRY HAS GROWN PRIMARILY SINCE STREAMING CAME ALONG, IN 2010, FROM A $5 BILLION A YEAR INDUSTRY TO AN ALMOST $9 BILLION A YEAR INDUSTRY. THAT'S AN 80 percent GROWTH, RIGHT? NOW THE ARGUMENT IS ALSO MADE THAT, WELL, BUT WE'RE NOT TELLING OUR STORIES. EXCEPT WE ARE. THE LAST TWO YEARS HAVE BEEN THE BEST EVER FOR CERTIFIED CANADIAN CONTENT. NOT SURE IF THE ABSOLUTE BEST EVER, BUT AMONG THE BEST EVER IN TERMS OF THAT. SO I ALWAYS THINK THAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF FOR CHANGE IS ALWAYS ON THOSE PROMOTING IT. SO IN TERMS OF THAT, I DON'T SEE THAT THERE IS PROOF OF CHANGE. YOU KNOW, AND AGAIN, THERE'S 97 RECOMMENDATIONS HERE. I'M TAKING ISSUE WITH A NUMBER OF THEM THAT MOST OF US WHO FOLLOW AND FAVOUR A FREE AND OPEN INTERNET WERE ALARMED ABOUT, BUT THERE WERE A NUMBER OF OTHER ONES THAT WERE PRETTY INTERESTING TOO THAT I AGREE WITH.

Steve says MURAD, JUST BEFORE I GET YOU IN, I WANT TO GIVE JANET YALE A CHANCE TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THAT. AND ONE CAVEAT AS WELL, I MEAN, I NOTE THAT PETER HAS SAID THAT IT'S BEEN A GREAT TIME FOR CANADIAN CONTENT. I GUESS UNLESS YOU'RE A LEGACY NEWSPAPER, BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY HASN'T BEEN GREAT TIMES FOR LEGACY NEWSPAPERS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Peter says NEWSPAPERS AREN'T CANADIAN CONTENT.

Steve says OKAY, WELL, HANG ON. LET ME... LET'S FOLLOW UP ON THIS. THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS FILE IN THE DAYS AFTER YOUR REPORT CAME OUT GOT HIMSELF INTO SOME DIFFICULTY BY SAYING THAT EVERYBODY'S GOING TO NEED A LICENCE GOING FORWARD. IS THAT TRUE?

Janet says ABSOLUTELY NOT. SO WHAT WE TAKE ISSUE WITH IS THAT... FIRST OF ALL, LICENSING IS FOR THE CLOSED, OLD SYSTEM, TRADITIONAL PLAYERS. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT...

Steve says LIKE THE TELEVISION, RADIO, THAT KIND OF THING?

Janet says RADIO, CABLE COMPANIES. WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS REGISTRATION, AND LET'S BE CLEAR, WE ARE NOT PROPOSING THAT NEWS AND NEWS CONTENT BE REGULATED. THERE'S NOWHERE IN THE REPORT WE SAY THAT. BUT WE DO BELIEVE THERE IS A CRISIS IN NEWS, AND NOT NEWSPAPERS. WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT NEWS THAT'S DELIVERED ON-LINE, NOT PRINT. AND THERE HAS BEEN A COLLAPSE IN THE BUSINESS MODEL WITH RESPECT TO NEWS, CLOSURE OF 200 PAPERS IN ENGLISH CANADA, MANY, MANY DAILIES IN QUEBEC. AND SO THE BUSINESS MODEL IN TERMS OF ADVERTISING AND SUBSCRIPTION REVENUES IS THE PROBLEM WE TRIED TO ADDRESS, AND SO THE OBLIGATIONS ARE NOT ON NEWS CONTENT PROVIDERS. WE ENSHRINE THE RIGHT TO A FREE AND OPEN INTERNET AS A SAFEGUARD TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, AS AN ESSENTIAL COMPONENT OF A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY. THE ONLY PLAYERS THAT ARE CAUGHT BY OUR NEWS RECOMMENDATIONS ARE NOT THE CREATORS OF NEWS, ARE THOSE PLATFORMS THAT ENABLE THE DISSEMINATION OF NEWS THAT THEY DID NOT CREATE OR ENABLE THE SHARING OF NEWS, LIKE FACEBOOK...

Steve says AGGREGATORS.

Janet says AGGREGATORS OR PLATFORMS THAT ENABLE THE SHARING AND DISTRIBUTION OF NEWS WITH NO COMPENSATION TO JOURNALISTS.

Steve says SO WHEN I HEAR PETER SAY I'M CONCERNED ABOUT A SITUATION WHERE A GOVERNMENT IS IN CHARGE OF OR AT LEAST KEEPING AN EYE ON CONTENT, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

Janet says THAT'S NOT IN THE REPORT. WE RESPECT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, JOURNALISTIC INDEPENDENCE. WE DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYTHING IN THE REPORT THAT WOULD INTERFERE WITH FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE OF NEWSPAPERS. THAT'S JUST NOT IN THE REPORT BECAUSE WE BELIEVE FUNDAMENTALLY THAT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE. AS FAR AS CANADIAN PRODUCTION GOES, IT IS TRUE THAT THERE'S LOTS OF MONEY BEING INVESTED IN CANADA BY THE LIKES OF NETFLIX, BUT THOSE ARE SERVICE PRODUCTIONS. THEY DO NOT DO... THEY DO GREAT THINGS FOR JOBS AND THE ECONOMY.

Steve says HOLD UP ON THIS. I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THIS ISSUE IN A SECOND. MURAD, YOU'VE BEEN VERY PATIENT WAITING TO GET INTO THIS. COME ON IN AND GIVE US YOUR REACTION.

The caption changes to "Murad Hemmadi. The Logic. @muradhem."

Murad says WELL, I'D LIKE TO PICK UP ON THE LAST TWO POINTS JUST QUICKLY BECAUSE IT'S TRUE THAT THERE'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF LET'S SAY MESS AROUND THE WAY THAT THE HERITAGE MINISTER SORT OF ANSWERED A QUESTION ON SUNDAY. AND IT'S TRUE THAT THE REPORT DOESN'T TALK ABOUT LICENSING. IT TALKS ABOUT REGISTRATION FOR AGGREGATORS AND BROADCASTERS AND SHARING PLATFORMS. HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK WHAT JANET JUST SAID ABOUT SORT OF THERE BEING NO LOOK ON NEWS CONTENT IS QUITE FAIR BECAUSE THERE IS A RECOMMENDATION THAT SHARING PLATFORMS AND AGGREGATORS BE REQUIRED TO LINK TO... AND I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT WORDING, BUT ESSENTIALLY TRUSTED... YOU KNOW, TRUE SOURCES OF CANADIAN CONTENT, OF CANADIAN NEWS. SOMEONE HAS TO MAKE A DETERMINATION AS TO WHAT A TRUSTED, RELIABLE, TRUE COURSE OF CANADIAN USE IS, AND AS I RECALL, THE REPORT SUGGESTS THAT THAT FUNCTION BE PLAYED BY THE CRTC. THERE ARE, ALSO, LARGE... WRITTEN INTO THE REPORT, THERE ARE SORT OF LARGE ALLOWANCES FOR THE CRTC TO EXERCISE ITS DISCRETION TO ALLEVE CERTAIN AREAS OF CONTENT, NOT EXPLICITLY, BUT SUCH AS NEWS OUT, BUT THAT STILL LEAVES THE CRTC MAKING SOME DECISIONS AS TO WHAT IT CONSIDERS TO BE, YOU KNOW, THOSE SORT OF TRUSTED SOURCES OF CANADIAN NEWS CONTENT, WHICH IS A POWER THAT CERTAINLY THERE ARE... THERE ARE NO SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE OBJECTING TO. ON THE SERVICE PRODUCTION...

Steve says HOLD ON. HANG ON A SEC. WE WANT TO... LET'S GO POINT BY POINT HERE. OKAY, JANET, YOU KNOW THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, REBEL MEDIA HAS COME OUT AND SAID THAT'S... YOU'RE PUTTING A BULL'S EYE ON OUR BACK BY HAVING THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE IN YOUR REPORT. OUGHT THEY TO BE CONCERNED THAT THEY DON'T MEET THIS QUOTE UNQUOTE TRUSTED RELIABLE SOURCE THRESHOLD AND THEREFORE THEY'RE IN TROUBLE?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Janet says ABSOLUTELY NOT. WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO GET AT WAS THE NEED FOR MORE VOICES WITH THE COLLAPSE OF NEWS ORGANIZATIONS AND WANTING TO ENSURE THAT IN A WORLD OF MISINFORMATION AND FAKE NEWS, THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THAT IS HAVING MORE SOURCES OF CANADIAN NEWS, LOCAL, REGIONAL, NATIONAL, AND A CANADIAN PERSPECTIVE ON INTERNATIONAL NEWS. SO HOW DO WE DO THAT? HOW DO WE ENSURE THAT THERE IS THAT? SO WE RECOMMENDED, AS YOU NOTED, AGGREGATORS SHARERS WHO PUT MONEY INTO AN INDEPENDENT NEWS FUND THAT WOULD HAVE COMPLETE JOURNALISTIC INDEPENDENCE.

Steve says WHO RUNS THE FUND?

Janet says TO BE DETERMINED. IT WOULD BE COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT.

Steve says THAT MATTERS, THOUGH, RIGHT?

Janet says WELL, OF COURSE, BUT THE PREMISE IN THE REPORT IS COMPLETE JOURNALISTIC EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE OF THE FUND.

Steve says BUT WHO APPOINTS THE PEOPLE TO THE FUND?

Janet says THAT'S TO BE DETERMINED BY THE CRTC. EITHER YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE'S A CRISIS IN NEWS, IN WHICH CASE THERE NEEDS TO BE MONEY THAT GOES FROM THOSE WHO ARE ENABLING THE SHARING OF NEWS WITHOUT COMPENSATION TO JOURNALISTS... LET'S REMEMBER THAT PLATFORMS LIKE FACEBOOK ARE MAKING HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY WITH NO COMPENSATION TO JOURNALISTS AND TO THE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE PRODUCING THAT NEWS CONTENT.

Steve says YEAH.

Janet says SO THERE MAY BE SOME TRICKY CHOICES ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY SHOULD MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO SUPPORT THE NEWS THAT THEY ARE FACILITATING SHARING WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION FOR THOSE JOURNALISTS.

Steve says OKAY, PETER, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUE WITH THAT, DO YOU?

Peter says I DO.

Steve says TELL US WHAT.

Peter says INVOLVING THE GOVERNMENT IN THE DEFINITION OF NEWS AND THE DISTRIBUTION OF FUNDS TO NEWS DOES NOT MAKE NEWS FREER. I MEAN, LET'S BE CLEAR ON THAT. I MEAN, I GET... I ADMIRE THE... WE'RE FROM OTTAWA AND WE'RE HERE TO HELP APPROACH ON THIS, BUT I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT'S THE WAY TO GO. THERE ARE OTHER STRUCTURES YOU CAN USE IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN NEWS THAT DON'T HAVE TO INVOLVE THE BROADCASTING ACT BECAUSE AS NEWSPAPERS HAVE EVOLVED ON-LINE... AND WHEN I USE THE TERM NEWSPAPERS, I'M INCLUDING ON-LINE BECAUSE THAT'S PRIMARILY WHERE THEY ARE THESE DAYS. I JUST... I CAN'T GET OVER THE IDEA THAT YOU ARE NOW PUTTING A BUREAUCRACY IN CHARGE OF WHAT IS DECIDING WHAT IS NEWS, FOR STARTERS, AND WHAT IS DECIDING WHAT IS TRUSTED NEWS AND NOT TRUSTED NEWS. I MEAN, I SAT IN A ROOM ABOUT TWO AND A HALF... IT WAS THE FALL OF 2016 WHEN A BUNCH OF NEWSPAPER PUBLISHERS WERE MAKING THEIR PITCH TO SUBSIDIES IN OTTAWA. CHATHAM HOUSE RULES APPLY, BUT MANY... MOST OF THE PUBLIC SERVANTS WITHIN THE ROOM WERE DEEPLY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA THAT THEY WOULD BE PUT IN THE ROLE OF DECIDING WHAT IS AND WHAT ISN'T NEWS.

Steve says OKAY, I UNDERSTAND. SO THIS IS ONE IDEA...

Peter says IT'S SOMETHING FOR THE MARKETPLACE TO DECIDE.

Steve says OKAY, BUT THE PANEL IS... HANG ON, PETER, PETER...

Peter says TRUST FOR AGES.

Steve says THE COMMISSION, THE PANEL HAS MADE ITS RECOMMENDATION FOR HOW IT PROPOSES A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS SOLUTION, WHAT'S YOUR BETTER IDEA?

Peter says WHAT'S MY BETTER IDEA? AGAIN, I SAY THE ONUS FOR THE BURDEN OF PROOF FOR CHANGE IS INCUMBENT ON THOSE ADVOCATING FOR IT. I AGREE THAT IT'S A VERY DISRUPTIVE TIME FOR MEDIA. I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE GENUINE ISSUES AROUND ACCESS TO ON-LINE ADVERTISING AND HOW THAT WORKS INTERNATIONALLY, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. I BELIEVE THAT THERE SHOULD BE... THAT THE SOLUTIONS THAT SHOULD BE TARGETED SHOULD BE THOSE AT LOOKING AT SUPPORTING THE NEXT THING, NOT THE LAST THING. I MEAN, THIS IS A TIME... THE INTERNET IS A TIME OF INCREDIBLE CHANGE, SO I MEAN, TO USE AN ANALOGY I'VE BEEN USING LATELY, THIS IS LIKE THE INTRODUCTION OF THE AUTOMOBILE, RIGHT? IT MADE A HUGE CHANGE TO THE INDUSTRIAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE WORLD IN TERMS OF THAT, BUT WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO HERE IS TO SUPPORT HORSE AND CARRIAGES, RIGHT? WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING IS SUPPORTING THE NEW WORLD, NOT THE OLD WORLD.

Steve says OKAY, LET ME GET MURAD IN HERE. YOU'RE PART OF THE NEW WORLD, SO GO AHEAD, YOU RESPOND.

Murad says WELL, I ACTUALLY... THAT ANALOGY, I JUST WANT TO PICK UP ON, AND TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT JANET WAS SAYING EARLIER ABOUT SORT OF THE CRTC NEEDING TO BE FORWARD LOOKING AND SEEING THE CHANGE THAT'S COMING, SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED WITH AUTOMOBILES IS THAT CITIES CHANGED MUNICIPAL POLICY, THINGS LIKE ZONING LAWS, AND BASICALLY RIPPED UP WHAT HAD BEEN MORE SORT OF PEDESTRIAN-FRIENDLY AREAS TO ALLOW CARS IN. AND NOW WE'RE SEEING THE REVERSAL OF THAT. I WON'T BELABOUR THIS ANALOGY FOR MUCH LONGER, BUT THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, SEEING WHAT'S AROUND THE CORNER IS THE SORT OF BASIC PROBLEM OF ALL POLICY-MAKING. A YEAR AGO, IF YOU TOLD ME THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS GOING TO BE A VERSION... A SHORT VIDEO APP THAT THE WASHINGTON POST IS ON, TIKTOK, THAT IS GOING TO SHOW UP ALL OVER THE INTERNET AND SORT OF TAKE OVER YOUTH CULTURE, I MEAN, I DON'T THINK WE COULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT. SHOULD THE CRTC OR WHATEVER VERSION WE HAVE IT NEXT, IS THE CRTC GOING TO SEE TIKTOK COMING? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT. PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRY DIDN'T, AND IT'S JUST... THE IDEA THAT WE CAN MAKE RULES FOR OUR FUTURE WE CAN'T SEE THAT ARE BASED ON OLD RULES, LIKE, I THINK PETER MAKES A VALID POINT, BUT I THINK HE'S SORT OF TAKING THE WRONG LESSON FROM IT. IT IS HARD TO MAKE POLICY ABOUT THE FUTURE. I DO THINK WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE REALITIES THAT WE HAVE NOW, AND YEAH, YOU KNOW, I WORK FOR A PUBLICATION THAT HAS A SUBSCRIPTION MODEL. A VERY OLD SCHOOL THING APPLIED TO THE INTERNET. YOU KNOW, WE'RE DOING IT IN NEW WAYS, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. THESE EXPERIMENTS ARE BEING CONDUCTED FOR SURE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE ARE SEEING THE DIE OFF OF... AND THERE IS A GAP BEING CREATED. THOSE NEWSPAPERS AREN'T ALL BEING REPLACED BY COMMUNITY VERSIONS OF LOGIC.

Janet says I WILL JUST MAKE ONE QUICK COMMENT. I WANT TO MAKE ONE COMMENT ABOUT THE NEED FOR A MIND SHIFT ON THE PART OF USERS. JUST AS WHEN IT BECAME POSSIBLE ON-LINE TO START STREAMING MUSIC, AND PEOPLE DIDN'T WORRY ABOUT COMPENSATION FOR THE ARTISTS AND CREATORS WHO CREATED THE MUSIC, WE THEN SAID, WELL, FOR SURE THE BUSINESS MODELS ARE ADAPTING AND THAT'S A GREAT THING, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TECHNOLOGY AND ADVANCEMENT WORKS. BUT WE STARTED TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S NOT FAIR NOT TO COMPENSATE THEM FOR THE USE OF THEIR CREATIVE CONTENT. THAT'S THE POINT WE'RE MAKING WITH NEWS. AND I THINK THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THEY ARE POSTING THOSE NEWS STORIES ON FACEBOOK, THEY ARE NOT ENSURING THAT THE GENERATORS OF THAT NEWS, THE JOURNALISTS, THE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS, THEY ARE NOT BEING COMPENSATED. AND SO OUR RECOMMENDATIONS ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS THAT, AND IT REQUIRES PEOPLE TO START UNDERSTANDING THAT JUST AS MUSIC AND TV HAVE, YOU KNOW, COPYRIGHT IN THEM, SO TOO DOES NEWS, AND WE HAVE TO START TO RESPECT THAT AND UNDERSTAND THAT IF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE OUR PROPOSAL FOR HOW TO ENSURE THERE'S COMPENSATION, WE'RE OPEN TO THINKING ABOUT OTHER WAYS. WE THINK THAT THE ONE WE'VE COME UP WITH DOESN'T INTERFERE WITH THE BUSINESS MODELS OF THE FUTURE AND IS FLEXIBLE AND ADAPTABLE TO CHANGE.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says PETER, CAN I GET YOU TO RESPOND TO THAT?

Peter says YEAH, THERE ARE WAYS TO DEAL WITH THESE THINGS, LIKE I SAID, THAT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE BROADCASTING ACT. SO FOR COPYRIGHT ISSUES AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, THERE ARE COPYRIGHT LAWS AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS THAT YOU CAN DEAL WITH THOSE THINGS. AND THE COURTS CAN DEAL WITH THEM AND ENFORCE THEM. YOU DON'T NEED... AND TAKE THE CRTC, THE CRTC HAS 400 PEOPLE IN IT. YOU ADD THIS BURDEN ON IT, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ADD AT LEAST A COUPLE HUNDRED MORE PEOPLE. I MEAN, THE BURDEN OF WORK ON THAT IS INCREDIBLE. ANYWAY, THERE ARE LOTS OF... I THINK WE AGREE ON... THAT THERE ARE PUBLIC POLICY ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED HERE, BUT THIS IS NOT THE SOLUTION. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DO IT. SAME WITH PRIVACY. THERE'S A PRIVACY COMMISSIONER. THERE'S WAYS YOU CAN DO THIS THAT ARE FAR LESS INVASIVE.

Steve says I THINK I FOUND THE ONE THING YOU ALL THREE WILL AGREE ON. I THINK WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT ON THE NOTION THAT THE TITLE, CANADIAN RADIO TUITION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION, IS TERRIBLE AND THAT CANADIAN COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION IS BETTER. CAN I SEE A SHOW OF HANDS AS TO WHO AGREES ON THAT?

Janet and Peter raise a hand.

Steve says MURAD, I DIDN'T SEE YOUR HAND GO UP.

Murad says WELL, I CAN'T... I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHERE MY HAND IS.

He raises a hand.

Steve says THERE IT IS.

Murad says ON THE SCREEN.

Steve says LET'S PICK ON ONE OTHER THING IN YOUR REPORT IF WE CAN HERE, JANET, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS GENERATED A LOT OF BUZZ IS THE IDEA OF ACCESSING THE DATA THAT NETFLIX AND AMAZON AND APPLE AND THE SO FAULD FAANGS, THAT THEY GENERATE ON THEIR USERS. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH ALL THAT DATA? WHO GETS ACCESS TO IT, ET CETERA, ET CETERA?

The caption changes to "Streaming services."

Janet says SO, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE FAANGS AND MEDIA CONTENT UNDERTAKINGS, BECAUSE WE'RE VERY CLEAR IN OUR REPORT THAT WE'RE ONLY TALKING... WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT AMAZON. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT APPLE. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GOOGLE TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE IN LINES OF BUSINESS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MEDIA CONTENT. SO LET'S PUT THAT ASIDE. AND WHAT WE WANTED TO DO FOR THE MEDIA CONTENT UNDERTAKINGS IS TO EMBRACE, AS WE'VE SAID, THE OPEN GLOBAL MARKET AND TO ENSURE THAT THEY MAKE AN APPROPRIATE CONTRIBUTION TO SUPPORT CANADIAN CONTENT. I ASSUME WE'RE STILL GOING TO COME BACK TO THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SERVICE PRODUCTIONS AND CANADIAN PRODUCTIONS AT SOME POINT, BECAUSE THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.

Steve says YOU WANT TO HIT THAT NOW?

Janet says I WOULD LOVE TO.

Steve says GO AHEAD.

Janet says THANK YOU. BECAUSE IT IS TRUE THAT, AS I'VE SAID, NETFLIX, TIME, ALL THOSE COMPANIES ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE CANADIAN DOLLAR AND SERVICE TAX CREDITS TO SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN CANADA, AND WE THINK THAT'S FANTASTIC. JOBS, PRODUCTION CAPACITY AND SO ON. BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CULTURAL POLICY BECAUSE THE KEY CREATIVE DIVISIONS IN THOSE PRODUCTIONS ARE NOT HELD BY CANADIANS. SO OUR RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT ARE NOT ABOUT INTERFERING WITH THEIR BUSINESS MODELS AT ALL SAYING YOU DON'T HAVE CATALOGUE REQUIREMENTS, YOU DON'T HAVE EXHIBITION REQUIREMENTS, WE'RE NOT TELLING YOU WHAT GENRES OF PROGRAMMING TO INVEST IN. WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TO SPEND A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF YOUR PROGRAM BUDGET THAT... BASED ON YOUR ADVERTISING OR SUBSCRIPTION REVENUES IN CANADA, ON PRODUCTIONS THAT QUALIFY AS CANADIAN SO THAT, AS WE SAY IN A WORLD OF ENDLESS CHOICES AND VOICES THERE ARE CANADIAN CHOICES. NOT FORCED ON YOU, BUT CANADIAN CHOICES.

Steve says MURAD, COMING ON THAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT RECOMMENDATION?

Murad says YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT. I WOULD CONTRAST YOU TWO SHOWS, THE CW'S ARROW SHOW, WHICH JUST CAME TO AN END, WHICH IS SHOT IN VANCOUVER AND HAS A CANADIAN IN THE LEAD ROLE, AND THEN SCHITTS CREEK, WHICH IS A ROLE THAT THE CBC PRESIDENT TALKS A LOT ABOUT AS AN EXAMPLE OF CANADIAN CONTENT. YOU KNOW, ARROW IS IN A FICTIONAL WORLD. SCHITTS CREEK IS SET SOMEWHERE IN THE U.S. SCHITTS CREEK IS CAN CON BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THE POINT SYSTEM, AND JUST SO PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, THERE'S A POINT SYSTEM, A CERTAIN NUMBER OF POINTS FOR A DIRECTOR WHO'S CANADIAN, A SCREEN WRITER WHO'S CANADIAN.

Janet says ACTORS.

Murad says STARS. AND SO ON AND SO ON. YOU KNOW, I THINK IF YOU TAKE SCHITTS CREEK OUT IN THE WORLD, NO ONE LOOKS AT THAT SHOW AND SAYS THAT'S A CANADIAN SHOW, BUT WE HOLD IT UP AS AN EXAMPLE OF CANADIAN CONTENT. AND BY THE WAY, I LOVE THE SHOW, GREAT SHOW, BUT THE FACE OF ARROW IS ALSO CANADIAN. THAT DOESN'T COUNT AS CAN CON. I DO THINK THERE IS AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION TO BE HAD ABOUT HOW WE DEFINE CAN CON IN A WORLD OF YouTubers. YOU KNOW, YouTube HAS A MUCH HIGHER PROPORTION OF CANADIAN STARS THAN OUR SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION. I THINK THOSE RULES DEFINITELY NEED TO BE LOOKED AT BECAUSE JUST APPLYING THE OLD CAN CON RULES TO THESE NEW STREAMING SERVICES MISSES THE WAY THAT CONTENT IS BEING CREATED IN THIS AGE. YOU KNOW, MARGARET ATWOOD WRITES A BOOK. YOU TURN IT INTO A TV SHOW. THAT... WE HOLD MARGARET ATWOOD VERY DEAR IN THIS COUNTRY, OR A LOT OF PEOPLE DO, AS A CANADIAN ICON. I DON'T THINK THE REST OF THE WORLD NECESSARILY KNOWS HER AS THAT. THE OTHER QUICK POINT I'D MAKE ON THE DATA PIECES, JANET HAS SAID ELSEWHERE THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT LOOKING TO GET INTO PROPRIETARY DATA, INTRUSIVE DATA, BUT THE DISCOVERABILITY REQUIREMENTS OF THIS REPORT WITH REGARD TO ENSURING DISCOVERABILITY AND LOOKING AT ALGORITHMS AND THE USE OF BIG DATA TO DO THAT, I HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CONVINCE NETFLIX AND, YOU KNOW, APPLE FOR THEIR APPLE TV PLUS, DISNEY, THAT EXPLAINING THEIR ALGORITHMS TO ENSURE CANADIAN DISCOVERABILITY ISN'T PROPRIETARY INFORMATION.

Steve says OKAY, JUST A COUPLE MINUTES TO GO HERE. PETER, WHY DON'T YOU COME IN ON EITHER ONE OF THOSE TWO ISSUES THAT WERE JUST RAISED, FRANKLY.

Peter says SURE, JUST QUICKLY. THE PROBLEM WITH PUTTING IN SPENDING FLOORS MINIMUMS IS THAT IN MY EXPERIENCE THEY VERY QUICKLY BECOME CEILINGS. IF YOU WANTED TO SAY 20 percent, 30 percent, JUST PICK ONE, AND SAY THAT IS WHAT YOU MUST SPEND ON CANADIAN, THAT'S WHERE IT STOPS. THERE'S A 30 percent RULE ON BELL MEDIA CTV RIGHT NOW, FOR INSTANCE, AND I'D BE VERY SURPRISED, THEY MIGHT SPEND A PENNY MORE, BUT NOT MUCH MORE IN TERMS OF THAT. SO I THINK THAT'S A REAL ISSUE, PARTICULARLY WHEN, AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, EVERYTHING'S GOING REALLY WELL FOR CANADIAN CREATORS RIGHT NOW. I MEAN, IT IS A GREAT TIME TO BE THAT. I MEAN, THE LAST TIME... WHEN I WAS AT THE CRTC, IT GOES BACK A BIT NOW, BUT LAST TIME I WAS LOBBIED BY FILMMAKERS, IT WAS TO LEAVE NETFLIX ALONE, FOR INSTANCE, BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING REALLY WELL, AND THE CERTIFIED CANADIAN CONTENT IS DOING REALLY WELL TOO. SO I THINK WE'RE IN FEAR OF REGULATING FOR FEAR THAT SOMETHING BAD MIGHT HAPPEN. AND I THINK BY DOING SO WE MIGHT... WE RISK KILLING WHAT IS CURRENTLY A GOLDEN GOOSE.

Steve says ALL RIGHT. THAT ASIDE, OBVIOUSLY YOU TWO DISAGREE ON THAT. CAN WE JUST SAY IN THE LAST MINUTE HERE, JANET, GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO GAUGE THE POLITICAL TEMPERATURE OF THE DAY? WE HAVE A MINORITY PARLIAMENT IN OTTAWA. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE POSSIBILITY IS OF HAVING THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS ENACTED?

The caption changes to "Political landscape."

Janet says WELL, I TEND TO BE AN OPTIMISTIC PERSON, AND SO I BELIEVE THERE'S A LOT OF... IN THE REPORT, AND WE DID IDENTIFY THINGS WE THOUGHT WERE IN NEED OF URGENT ACTION. CERTAINLY MAKING SURE THAT EVERY CANADIAN HAS ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE CONNECTIVITY IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PRIORITY. WE THINK SOME OF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS CAN BE ENACTED QUICKLY. AND ON THE BROADCASTING OR CULTURAL SIDE, WE THINK IT'S IMPERATIVE THAT THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT DEMONSTRATE THAT THESE PLATFORM PROVIDERS, FOREIGN ON-LINE SERVICES, HAVE A DUTY, AN OBLIGATION TO CONTRIBUTE BECAUSE ADVERTISING AND SUBSCRIPTION REVENUES ARE LEAVING THIS COUNTRY, AND IN TERMS OF THE POWER AND CONTROL, WE THINK THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT NOW HAS A CRITICAL OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT THESE PROVIDERS ARE WELCOME IN CANADA. THEY ARE DOING GREAT THINGS, BUT THEY ALSO NEED TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION SO THAT BOTH IN NEWS AND ENTERTAINMENT WE HAVE CANADIAN CHOICES TO CHOOSE FROM.

The caption changes to "Producer: Meredith Martin, @MeredithMartin."

Steve says AND THAT'S OUR TIME TONIGHT. THAT'S JANET YALE, SHE'S THE CHAIR OF THE BROADCASTING AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS LEGISLATIVE REVIEW PANEL. WE THANK, AS WELL, PETER MENZIES, THE FORMER VICE CHAIR OF THE CRTC, NOW A SENIOR FELLOW WITH THE MACDONALD-LAURIER INSTITUTE, AND MURAD HEMMADI, A REPORTER WITH THE LOGIC. GOOD OF ALL OF YOU TO COME ON TO TVO TONIGHT AND HELP US OUT WITH THIS. THANKS SO MUCH.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Peter says THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

Janet says THANK YOU.

Murad says THANK YOU.

Watch: Regulating Canada's Digital Future