Transcript: Canadian Music: Modest No More? | Feb 10, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped lilac tie.

A caption on screen reads "Canadian Music: Modest no more? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE CANADIAN MUSIC SCENE LOST SEVERAL GREATS OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS: LEONARD COHEN, THE TRAGICALLY HIP'S GORD DOWNIE, AND MOST RECENTLY RUSH'S NEIL PEART, TO NAME JUST A FEW. THAT PROMPTED MUCH REFLECTION ON HOW SUCH STARS HELPED DEFINE A CANADIAN IDENTITY. NOW A YOUNGER GENERATION IS TOPPING CHARTS AROUND THE GLOBE, AND MAKING NO APOLOGIES FOR ITS STARDOM. IS THIS GROUP EMBLEMATIC OF A CHANGE IN THE CANADIAN IDENTITY TOO? LET'S FIGURE THAT OUT WITH: IN NEW YORK, NEW YORK: FREELANCE MUSIC JOURNALIST JON DEKEL...

Jon is in his thirties, with short auburn hair and a prominent full beard. He's wearing glasses and a black sweater.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO: KIANA "ROOKZ" EASTMOND, MUSIC EXECUTIVE AND CEO OF SANDBOX STUDIOS...

Kiana is in her twenties. She's wearing a denim shirt and a gray beanie.

Steve continues ALAN CROSS, MUSIC JOURNALIST AND HOST OF THE RADIO PROGRAM "THE ONGOING HISTORY OF NEW MUSIC," THAT'S ON TORONTO FM RADIO STATION 102.1 THE EDGE...

Alan is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with wavy brown hair. He's wearing glasses and a black shirt.

Steve continues AND ERIN ASHLEY, HIP HOP EDITOR OF EXCLAIM! MAGAZINE.

Erin is in her early thirties, with long straight brown hair. She's wearing a khaki shirt and a golden necklace.

Steve continues WE'RE DELIGHTED TO HAVE EVERYBODY AROUND THIS TABLE AND, JON, TO YOU IN NEW YORK CITY, FOR THIS CONVERSATION TODAY. AND I WANT TO... OKAY. ALAN, I WANT TO JUST START WITH THIS. I SAID NEIL PEART.

Alan says CORRECT.

Steve says I KNOW THERE'S A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WATCHING RIGHT NOW WHO THINK I MISPRONOUNCED.

Alan says TRUST ME, IT IS PEART.

Steve says HAVING SAID THAT, I GAVE A LIST OF SOME THAT WE HAVE JUST LOST IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, AND I WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU WHAT YOU THINK THIS COUNTRY LOST AS A RESULT OF THEIR DEATHS.

The caption changes to "Alan Cross. 102.1 The Edge."
Then, it changes again to "Swan songs."

Alan says WELL, THESE ARE THREE TOWERING FIGURES IN CANADIAN MUSIC. NEIL PEART WAS THE GUY WHO MADE ME WANT TO GET INTO MUSIC AND PLAY DRUMS, DOWNIE WAS THE SYMBOL OF CONSCIENCE, LEONARD COHEN WAS THE POET LAUREATE FOR YEARS. TO LOSE THREE PEOPLE LIKE THAT IS A BLOW TO THE CANADIAN MUSIC INDUSTRY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING UP THAT WILL PERHAPS ONE DAY RANK ALONGSIDE THEM.

Steve says WE SHALL COME BACK TO THAT IN A MOMENT. I'D LIKE TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THAT. YOU ARE NOT OF LEONARD COHEN'S GENERATION.

Erin says I AM NOT.

Steve says YOU ARE NOT OF NEIL PEART'S GENERATION, BUT HOW DO YOU REGARD THEIR PASSING?

The caption changes to "Erin Ashley. Exclaim! Magazine."

Erin says I CAN UNDERSTAND. AT THE SAME TIME, I'M A CHILD OF IMMIGRANTS. WE DID NOT LISTEN TO THAT MUSIC GROWING UP IN MY HOUSEHOLD. SO MY RELATIONSHIP TO THAT MUSIC IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN MAYBE THE GENERAL CANADIAN LANDSCAPE OVERALL.

Steve says JON, HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?

The caption changes to "Jon Dekel. Freelance Journalist."

Jon says YEAH, I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF A CHANGE OF THE GUARD SITUATION, SUNRISE, SUNSET. IT'S ALLOWING A NEW GENERATION TO HAVE THEIR CANADIAN HERO, SO TO SPEAK, AND REALLY TO PUT A NEW FACE ON CANADIAN MUSIC TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AS WELL.

Steve says HOW, ALAN, DID THEY CONTRIBUTE TO CANADA'S SENSE OF ITSELF.

Alan says WITH LEONARD COHEN, HE'S A GUY WHOSE MATERIAL WAS STUDIED AT THE Ph.D. LEVEL. HE WAS A MAJOR POET AND SONGWRITER FROM THE 1960s, HE WAS A NOVELIST. HE KIND OF DISAPPEARED FOR A WHILE BUT THEY CAME ROARING BACK IN THE LATE 1980s AND BECAME THIS GIANT ICON OF CANADIAN ART, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM. HE WAS THE SENIOR, SENIOR FELLOW WITH EVERYTHING TO DO WITH CANADIAN ART AND LITERATURE AND MUSIC. NEIL PEART, HE WAS REGARDED AS ONE OF THE BEST, IF NOT THE BEST ROCK DRUMMERS EVER...

Steve says THAT IS AMAZING. SAY THAT AGAIN.

Alan says HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST...

Steve says BEST EVER.

Alan says DRUMMERS EVER, YES. IF YOU LOOK AT ANY, YOU KNOW, SURVEYS ABOUT THE BEST DRUMMERS IN THE WORLD, HE'S ALWAYS IN THE TOP 5, IF NOT THE TOP GUY ON THE LIST, WITH KEITH MOON AND JOHN BONHAM AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU CARE TO MENTION. HE WAS THAT GOOD. HE WAS SO WELL-REGARDED BY HIS PEERS THAT PEOPLE WERE JUST... YOU KNOW, THE SHOCK THAT HE'S GONE BECAUSE HE WAS SO GOOD. GORD DOWNIE, NOT AN INTERNATIONAL STAR, BUT CERTAINLY THE CONSCIENCE OF CANADA IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. HE IS UNOFFICIALLY... WELL, OFFICIALLY, NOW, THE POET LAUREATE OF ONTARIO...

Steve says THEY NAMED IT AFTER HIM.

A caption reads "Alan Cross, @alancross."

Alan says THEY NAMED IT AFTER HIM. AND THE OTHER THING TOO WAS THAT GORD AND THE TRAGICALLY HIP, THEY DID A COUPLE OF THINGS. FIRST OF ALL, THEY MADE IT COOL, OR AT LEAST NOT CHEESY, TO SING ABOUT CANADA. BEFORE THEY CAME ALONG, IT WAS LIKE, OKAY, CANADIAN MUSIC, CANADIAN GEOGRAPHY, CANADIAN HISTORY, THAT'S ALL KIND OF, YOU KNOW, WILDLIFE WHO'S WHO KIND OF THINGS, BROCCOLI, EAT IT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU. TRAGICALLY HIP COMES ALONG, I'M PROUD OF MY COUNTRY, I'M GLAD THIS BAND IS SINGING ABOUT IT IN AN UNCHEESY WELL AND GORD GETS INTO THE RECONCILIATION THING, ADDING AN AWFUL LOT OF DIALOGUE TO THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE IN THE COUNTRY. SO TO HAVE HIM GO, WHO IS LEADING THAT CHARGE, WAS A REALLY BIG, BIG DEAL.

Steve says IF I CAN PICK UP ON JON'S EXPRESSION ABOUT A CHANGING OF THE GUARD, AND KIANA, I'LL BRING YOU IN AT THIS POINT, WE HAVE A LOT OF, WELL, YOU WANT TO CALL THEM NEW INTERNATIONAL SUPERSTARS ON THE SCENE? WE'VE GOT DRAKE, THE WEEKND, ALESSIA CARA, THEY ARE MORE UNAPOLOGETICALLY OUT THERE THAN THESE OTHER GUYS. HOW DO YOU REGARD IT?

The caption changes to "Kiana Eastmond. Sandbox Studios."
Then, it changes again to "A changing of the guard."

Kiana says THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME. THE WORLD IS MORE OUT THERE. WE LIVE IN A SOCIAL MEDIA WORLD WHERE YOU CAN SEE EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING... BEFORE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT DIANA ROSS WAS EATING TODAY, LIKE IF SHE WENT TO CHIPOTLE.

Alan says I CAN'T IMAGINE DIANA ROSS AT CHIPOTLE.

Kiana says NOW WE CAN SEE EVERYTHING. THE TWO THINGS HAPPENING IS THAT WE HAVE MEGA STARS FROM BOY WONDER WHO IS WINNING A TON OF PRODUCER AWARDS TO PARTY NEXT DOOR WHO IS A REALLY WELL-REGARDED WRITER TO 1985, EVEN THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE SCENES IN MUSIC RIGHT NOW ARE WRITING FOR SOME OF THE BIGGEST STARS IN THE WORLD. THIS IDEA OF MODESTY CHANGING, I THINK (a)... PEOPLE FORGET THAT URBAN MUSIC COMES FROM A PLACE OF BRAVADO, IT WAS A PLACE OF I NEED TO BE SEEN, I WANT IT TO BE SEEN.

Steve says I THINK YOU DESCRIBED IT AS BRAGGADOCIOUSNESS.

Kiana says IT WAS A DISREGARDED GENRE AND THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE REASON THAT I THINK IT'S SO MUCH MORE IN OUR FACE NOW, ON THE CANADIAN LANDSCAPE BECAUSE WE HAVE SOME OF THE BIGGEST URBAN STARS IN THE WORLD AND URBAN TRANSITIONED FROM ITS OWN GENRE TO BEING POP MUSIC, IT IS OFFICIALLY POP MUSIC NOW.

Steve says JON, LET ME GET YOUR TAKE. TO USE ROOKZ'S WORD, THERE'S A BRAGGADOCIOUSNESS, THIS ESTABLISHED GENERATION OF CANADIAN SUPERSTARS... ANNE MURRAY WOULD NOT HAVE GONE FOR THAT KIND OF THING.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says BURTON... GORDON LIGHTFOOT WAS NOT OUT THERE BRAGGING ABOUT HOW FANTASTIC HE WAS. HOW IS THIS TRANSITION GOING?

The caption changes to "Jon Dekel, @JonDekel."

Jon says SURE. IT'S ALSO A BIT OF RECONTEXTUALIZATION OF POP MUSIC, AS ROOKZ POINTED OUT. YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER WHAT THE BRAGGADOCIOUSNESS SITS, IF THAT'S A WORD. YOU HAVE TO KIND OF PUT THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF HIP-HOP MUSIC AND ALSO PUT WHAT GORD DOWNIE DID IN THE CONTEXT OF KIND OF LOCALIZATION OF ROCK MUSIC. THE WAY BOTH CONSIDER AUTHENTICITY IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT, SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOMEONE, SINCE I'M IN NEW YORK, I'M GOING TO PERHAPS BRING UP THE VELVET UNDERGROUND, WHICH IN ROCK WAS A VERY, VERY SPECIFIC BAND. THEY SPOKE ABOUT NEW YORK AND THAT LED THEM AN AIR OF AUTHENTICITY. IT WOULD BE VERY HARD TO CONSIDER THEM A POP BAND PER SE. WHEREAS SOMEONE LIKE DRAKE, THAT KIND OF TAKING THE CITY ON HIS BACK IS CONSIDERED A GOOD THING, YOU KNOW, AND IT ALLOWS HIM TO SPEAK TO A LARGER AUDIENCE. SO PUTTING THAT ALL IN CONTEXT AND COUCHING IT IN THAT IDEA, YOU GET A DIFFERENT SENSE OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE IN TERMS OF KIND OF TAKING YOUR CITY ON YOUR BACK OR TAKING YOUR COUNTRY ON YOUR BACK AND SAYING, YES, I'M FROM THIS PLACE, YES, THE PLACE IS GREAT, AND EVERYBODY SHOULD COME TO ME RATHER THAN ME PRETENDING I'M FROM NEW YORK.

Steve says ALAN?

Alan says THERE WAS ALWAYS A BIG DEAL ABOUT ROCK BANDS SELLING OUT, YOU KNOW, SELLING OUT THEIR ART. WITH HIP-HOP AND RAP AND THE CURRENT POP ENVIRONMENT, IT'S NOT ABOUT SELLING OUT, IT'S ABOUT CASHING IN. WHICH IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING. AND THAT IS LEADING TO, AGAIN, THIS BRAGGADOCIOUSNESS, WHICH IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THIS MUSIC.

Kiana says I THINK IF YOU GO BACK TO THE ROOTS OF HIP-HOP, AND I'M SURE ERIN CAN SPEAK TO THIS, I'M FROM THE BRONX, I'M FROM TEXAS. IT'S ALWAYS WEAVED INTO THE FABRIC AND CULTURE OF THE MUSIC. NOW THAT WE HAVE...

Alan says WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD WERE YOU FROM, WHAT CITY?

Kiana says THAT WAS ALWAYS A PART OF THE MUSIC FROM 30 YEARS AGO UNTIL TODAY. SO OUR STARS BEING FROM THIS SPACE, BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE ALESSIA CARA SAYING I'M CANADIAN IN EVERY SONG, BUT IF YOU HAVE PEOPLE FROM A GENRE WHERE IT'S IMPORTANT TO REPRESENT YOUR CULTURE, TO BRING YOUR CULTURE TO THE FOREFRONT, THAT IS ALWAYS WHAT HIP-HOP HAS DONE.

Alan says YOU DON'T SEE IT WITH THE WEEKND OR ALESSIA CARA OR... YOU SEE IT WITH DRAKE. HE'S BEEN ONE OF THE CITY'S BEST AMBASSADOR, COUNTRY'S AMBASSADOR, SINCE I DON'T KNOW WHO?

Steve says YOU HAVE WORKED WITH DRAKE, HAVE YOU NOT?

Kiana says I HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT, YES.

Steve says FOR MY GENERATION, HELP EXPLAIN HOW HE PUT TORONTO ON THE MAP.

The caption changes to "Kiana Eastmond, @rookzie."

Kiana says WELL, I THINK THAT IN SO MANY WAYS FROM JUST, ONE, HE'S AN INCREDIBLE WRITER AND PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRY LOVE HIM FOR HIS WRITING AND SO HE'S DONE A LOT FOR OTHER ARTISTS. HE HAS REALLY OPENLY CLAIMED TORONTO. A LOT OF STARS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WHEN THEY WORK IN ENTERTAINMENT FROM CANADA GO AND LIVE IN L.A., THEY GO AND LIVE IN NEW YORK. DRAKE WAS HERE OVER THE SUMMER PLAYING VOLLEYBALL WITH HIS FRIENDS UP BY YORKDALE. YOU KNOW, HE'S CREATED THINGS IN TORONTO LIKE OVO BALANCE, OVOFEST. HE'S DONE SO MANY THINGS...

The caption changes to "You can't take the Canadian out of the Artist."

Alan says THAT NICE CRIB ON THE BRIDAL PATH...

Steve says HE CREATED A LOT OF JOBS UP THERE TOO, YEAH.

Kiana says ABSOLUTELY. HE BUILT HIS HOME IN TORONTO.

Jon says MOREOVER, HE'S ALSO DONE THE SUMMIT. YOU KNOW, HE'S MADE TORONTO AND THE IDEA OF TORONTO AN IMPORTANT PART OF HIS MUSIC AND HIS GLOBAL BRAND.

Steve says WELL, AND I GUESS, ERIN, THE WHOLE RAPTORS THING TOO, HE'S SO CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH TORONTO RAPTORS BASKETBALL.

Erin says RIGHT.

Steve says AND THAT'S INTERNATIONAL NOW.

The caption changes to "Erin Ashley, @ellhah."

Erin says ABSOLUTELY. ONE MISSING ELEMENT FROM THIS NARRATIVE IS THAT RAP HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN AS A PROFITABLE GENRE IN CANADA. SO TO HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE DRAKE AND TO HAVE THE PRODUCERS THAT HE WORKS WITH AND TO HAVE ARTISTS LIKE MURDA BEATZ AND MAKING THIS INTERNATIONAL MONEY FOR US AND SAY I AM CANADIAN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S SO IMPORTANT AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS ALLOWED THE INDUSTRY AT LARGE IN CANADA TO START RECOGNIZING US AND START ACCEPTING THAT, YOU KNOW, HIP-HOP IS POP MUSIC AND IT IS AN IMPORTANT GENRE FOR THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY TO START PAYING ATTENTION TO.

Steve says LET ME QUOTE SOMETHING HERE FROM AN ARTICLE THAT JON WROTE AND, SHELDON, I'LL GET YOU TO BRING THIS UP. HERE'S JON DEKEL WRITING IN THE NATIONAL POST A FEW YEARS AGO...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Cool Canada." The quote reads "Since log drivers first waltzed, Canada's cultural output has been saddled with a reputation for being the uncool, kooky cousin of its neighbours to the south. Especially when it came to the performing arts, being from Canada was a novelty best explored in warmer climates and cooler locales of Hollywood or Laurel Canyon.
Shania and Celine may have dominated the charts in the 90s and Rush may be one of the most successful bands in the history of rock, but no amount of slapping da bass could make Geddy Lee hip -tragically or otherwise...
That all changed in 2015. To paraphrase The Guardian, we've now found ourselves in the midst of a cultural awakening: the rise of Cool Canadiana. For the first time since maybe ever Canadian pop artists are proud to be from Canada.
The result is a new class of rappers, singers and former Degrassi stars who would rather run through the six with their woes than move to New York or Los Angeles to make it."
Quoted from Jon Dekel, National Post. December 28, 2015.

Steve says OKAY, JON. THAT'S A VERY NICE TURN OF PHRASE. PEOPLE IN THE STUDIO HERE ARE SMILING AT YOUR TURN OF PHRASES THERE BUT FOLLOW UP. WHAT ELSE ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY THERE?

Jon says I WROTE THAT IN 2015, JUST FOR CONTEXT.

[LAUGHTER]

Jon says I MEAN, I LEFT MOST OF IT WITH WHAT I WANTED TO SAY ON THE PAGE, THIS IDEA THAT CANADA WASN'T COOL, IN BOTH THE PEJORATIVE AND LITERAL SENSE. IT WAS A COLD CLIMATE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE DIDN'T... I MEAN, I THINK SOMEBODY ELSE BROUGHT THIS UP EARLIER. IT WASN'T HIP TO STAY IN CANADA. AND NOW THINGS ARE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW? PEOPLE ARE MOVING TO TORONTO. PEOPLE ARE STAYING IN TORONTO. YOU HAVE ARTISTS LIKE DRAKE, I THINK ALAN MENTIONED, THAT BUILT A HOUSE IN ROSEDALE...

Steve says UP NORTH. HE'S ON THE BRIDAL PATH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

Jon says SO ANYWAYS, UNLIKE SOMEBODY LIKE NEIL YOUNG OR JONI MITCHELL WHO HAD TO GO TO CALIFORNIA TO KIND OF FIND THEIR MUSE AND FIND THEIR FINANCIAL LEGS, DRAKE HAS STAYED IN TORONTO. BIEBER PERHAPS LESS SO, BUT HE STILL HAS A HOUSE IN AND AROUND TORONTO. ALYSSA CARA, JOHN MEN DES WALKS HIS DOG DOWNTOWN. THEY CONSIDER TORONTO HOME AND ARE PROUD OF IT IN A WORLD WHERE YOU'RE CONSTANTLY TELLING PEOPLE WHERE YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING. IT'S NICE TO SAY, HEY, THESE GUYS ARE ACTUALLY FROM TORONTO. IT'S NOT LIKE NEIL YOUNG WHO IS TRYING TO GET AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP NOW.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Kiana says I THINK THE BIGGER IMPACT THAT DRAKE ACTUALLY HAD, AND WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE ARTISTS, IS ACTUALLY THE INDUSTRY. DRAKE'S LAWYER, CHRIS TAYLOR, HIS FIRM HAS INCREASED ITS VALUE. ALL OF THE OTHER PEOPLE SURROUNDING HIM, FROM AHMED WHO RUNS HOUSE WITH LAMAR, THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER EXTENSIONS THAT HAVE DEVELOPED THE INDUSTRY HERE, WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO STAY HERE AND WHY PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED. LeBRON WANTS TO COME AND WATCH OVO. WE TALK ABOUT ARTISTS AND THAT'S WHERE WE GET A LITTLE BIT LOST IN CANADA. YES, OUR ARTISTS ARE DOING REALLY WELL. BUT THE PERIPHERALS, THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT THE INDUSTRY, MY BRAND HAS BEEN MORE ESTABLISHED BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE TO WORK IN THE SPACE.

Steve says ANYBODY HAVE A LAST NAME ANYMORE? ALL THE PEOPLE YOU JUST MENTIONED HAVE ONLY GOT ONE NAME.

Kiana says I'VE ONLY GOT ONE NAME TOO. BUT, YEAH...

Steve says ALAN, YOU WANTED TO SAY?

Alan says THERE HAS BEEN A PROBLEM UP UNTIL RECENTLY WHERE CANADIAN RECORD LABELS CAN'T BREAK AN ARTIST INTERNATIONALLY. THEY HAVE TO GO AND USE THE RESOURCES OF THEIR AMERICAN PARENT COMPANY, WHICH IS WHY YOU HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE JUSTIN BIEBER LIVING IN CALABASAS AND CANADA, DRAKE GOING DOWN TO THE U.S., THE WEEKND HAVING A VERY NICE PENTHOUSE IN NEW YORK CITY THESE DAYS. IN ORDER TO BREAK IN INTERNATIONALLY, IT'S VERY HARD TO DO IT FROM A CANADIAN BASE. I THINK MAYBE ONLY CELINE DION IS THE ONLY ONE WHO MANAGED TO DO IT. EVERYBODY ELSE HAS HAD TO GO TO AMERICA, WHILE MAINTAINING THEIR CANADIAN ROOTS AND CANADIAN IDENTITY, WE'VE HAD TO SEND THEM TO THE U.S. IN ORDER TO HAVE THAT BIG BREAKTHROUGH, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES AND THE REACH.

Steve says MIND YOU, I HEAR, WHEN JUSTIN BIEBER COMES BACK TO STRATFORD TO GO VISIT THE FOLKS, HE RENTS THE LOCAL ARENA AND PLAYS PICKUP HOCKEY WITH MICHAEL BUBLE.

Alan says ANOTHER EXAMPLE. HE'S ALWAYS PLAYING PICKUP HOCKEY WITH BRYAN ADAMS AND WHOEVER IS AROUND HIM IN VANCOUVER WHEN HE'S HOME.

Steve says GOOD OLD MICHAEL BUBLE. JON, DOES MENTIONING CANADIANA OR THAT YOU'RE FROM CANADA NOW, DOES IT ACTUALLY HELP SELL RECORDS?

Jon says IN A CERTAIN GENRE, SURE. AND THAT SPEAKS TO I BELIEVE WHAT ROOKZ SAID EARLIER, WHICH IS THAT NOW CANADA HAS THE PROPER INFRASTRUCTURE AND HAS THE SOUND, SO TO SPEAK. SO, AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO LOOK TO THE PRODUCERS MORE THAN THE ARTISTS ON THAT ONE. NOW WHEN YOU SAY YOU'RE FROM TORONTO, PEOPLE ARE LIKE, OH, THAT'S WHERE DRAKE'S FROM. I MEAN, LESS SO WHERE THE WEEKND IS FROM. BUT IN GENERAL, YOU KNOW, THE CALLING CARD OF BEING FROM TORONTO AND UNFORTUNATELY IT IS VERY SPECIFIC TO TORONTO, NOT VANCOUVER OR, UNLESS YOU'RE IN INDY ROCK, MONTREAL. TORONTO ITSELF IS KIND OF A HIP CITY. I THINK THERE WAS A STATISTIC THAT DRAKE BROUGHT PERSONALLY OR HIS BRAND BROUGHT I THINK LIKE 9 percent OF TOURISM DOLLARS TO TORONTO LAST YEAR, A COUPLE YEARS AGO. ANYWAYS, THAT IDEA, THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING TO TORONTO RATHER THAN LEAVING, IS SOMETHING NEW AND VERY EXCITING FOR I'M SURE EVERYBODY ON THE PANEL.

Steve says ERIN, YOU DID SEE WHAT MADONNA SAID ABOUT CANADA THE OTHER DAY.

Erin says THAT WE WERE BORING?

Steve says THAT WE WERE BORING. THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID. SHE SAID HARRY AND MEGHAN, WHY DO YOU WANT TO GO TO CANADA? RENT FROM ME?

Erin says WE'RE NOT BORING IN ANY CAPACITY. WE'RE MAKING THE BEST MUSIC. WE HAVE A CHAMPIONSHIP NBA TEAM. WE'RE NOT BORING.

Steve says MADONNA IS WRONG?

Erin says MADONNA IS WRONG, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.

Alan says WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IS ACTUALLY THE RESULT OF 40 YEARS, MORE THAN 40 YEARS WORTH OF DEVELOPMENT. BACK BEFORE THE CAN CON REGULATIONS CAME IN, WE DIDN'T HAVE A MUSIC INDUSTRY. WE NEEDED TO HAVE THIS INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY THAT WOULD NOT ONLY SUPPORT CANADIANS ON THE RADIO, BUT RECORDING STUDIOS, MANAGERS, VENUES, AGENTS, PROMOTERS... EVERYTHING THAT YOU WOULD NEED FOR A FIRST WORLD MUSIC INDUSTRY. AND FOR THE FIRST 15 OR 20 YEARS, IT WAS PRETTY AWFUL.

Steve says CAN I FOLLOW UP ON THAT FOR A SECOND, ALAN? WHEN GINO VANNELLI SANG ABOUT THOSE NIGHTS IN MONTREAL... THAT'S THE FIRST TIME I REMEMBER A CANADIAN ARTIST SINGING IN THE LYRICS THAT THEY WERE CANADIAN. BEFORE THAT WAS IT CONSIDERED TOO UNCOOL TO DO THAT?

Alan says IT WAS. YOU WOULD GET PLAY... ACTUALLY, NEIL YOUNG TALKED ABOUT A PLACE IN NORTHERN ONTARIO IN ONE OF HIS EARLY SONGS. BUT AT THE SAME TIME...

Jon says AND JONI MITCHELL AND THE GUESS WHO, I BELIEVE...

Alan says "RUNNING BACK TO SASKATOON."

Steve says OH, YEAH. AND PORTAGE AND MAIN.

The caption changes to "Eating your CanCon vegetables."

Kiana says I WOULD HAVE TO DISAGREE A LITTLE BIT WITH WHAT CAN CON BRINGS TO THE TABLE IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW AND THAT 40-YEAR HISTORY. WHEN I GO TO THE STATES AND THE AMOUNT OF RADIO STATIONS IN NEW YORK ALONE THAT ARE URBAN MUSIC STATIONS, THERE'S 10 POWERFUL URBAN MUSIC STATIONS AND WE HAVE A COMMERCIAL TWO URBAN STATION HERE THAT'S PLAYING DRAKE MAYBE ONCE EVERY SIX HOURS, WHEREAS POWER 97... ALL THESE RADIO STATIONS ARE PLAYING URBAN MUSIC NON-STOP. I HEAR MORE CANADIAN CONTENT IN AMERICA THAN I DO ACTUALLY HERE ON THE RADIO WHEN WE'RE TALKING SPECIFICALLY TO THE GENRE THAT IS DOMINATING THE MUSIC INDUSTRY INTERNATIONALLY RIGHT NOW. IF CAN CON IS A PART OF WHAT'S CREATING THAT OPPORTUNITY, I'M SURE ERIN CAN ECHO THAT, IN OUR GENRE SPECIFICALLY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GO TO THE RADIO AND HEAR PARTY NEXT DOOR'S LATEST SINGLE, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HEAR ALL OF THE ARTISTS THAT ARE BIG ONLINE THAT CAN GO TO THE STATES AND TOUR ON RADIO HERE ARE ON TV HERE OR IN PLACEMENTS ON CANADIAN TELEVISION HERE. SO I CAN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT CAN CON IS KEEPING THIS JOHN RECONTEXTUALIZATION BOLSTERING OR GROWING.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Alan says IT WOULD NOT HAVE GROWN TODAY HAD IT NOT BEEN 40 YEARS OF CANADIAN CONTENT REGULATIONS MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE CREATE THE INFRASTRUCTURE...

Kiana says BUT THE MUSIC THAT IS BOOMING RIGHT NOW DOESN'T PLAY ON CANADIAN...

Alan says THAT'S NOT MY POINT. BUT THAT MUSIC WOULDN'T EXIST, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO CREATE THAT MUSIC TO GO ELSEWHERE IF THAT INFRASTRUCTURE HAD NOT BEEN LAID OVER THE PAST 45 YEARS.

Steve says ERIN, YOU WANT TO COME IN, BREAK THE TIE?

Erin says TO A DEGREE. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CANADIAN MUSIC INDUSTRY, THAT INFRASTRUCTURE HAS NEVER ALLOWED BLACK ARTISTS, INDIGENOUS ARTISTS, TO THRIVE. SO WE ARE LOOKING AT THIS INDUSTRY FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE PAST 10 YEARS, AND THAT HAS ALLOWED HIP-HOP TO SUDDENLY RISE TO THE CAPACITY THAT IT HAS. BUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, ROOKZ IS RIGHT. WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SUPPORT IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW FOR THIS GENRE.

Alan says DEFINE SUPPORT.

Erin says SUPPORT IN TERMS OF FINANCIAL SUPPORT.

Alan says WE HAVE FACTOR, WE HAVE STAR MAKER...

Kiana says LOOK AT WHO GETS STAR MAKER. YOU CAN'T LOOK AT DRAKE...

Steve says TELL ME, WHAT'S FACTOR AND STAR MAKER.

Kiana says EL I LOVE FACTOR. I'M A JURY MEMBER, PROUD OF FACTOR. WHEN WE LOOK AT ALL THE GOVERNMENT BODIES THAT FUND MUSIC AND FUND MUSIC COMPANIES AND VIDEOS...

Alan says THIS IS ALL BASED ON WRITING GRANTS AND APPLYING FOR THESE THINGS.

Erin says YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE IN THOSE GRANTS AND IT'S DISPROPORTIONATE. IF I DON'T HAVE A POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION, I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT GRANT.

Alan says I'LL TELL YOU, ANYBODY WHO HAS TO GET A GRANT NEEDS A GRANT WRITER TO DO THAT.

Erin says THAT COMES TO MONEY. WE DON'T HAVE 300 dollars TO GIVE TO SOMEBODY THAT WE MIGHT GET BACK...

Kiana says EVEN BEYOND THAT, THOUGH, BEYOND THE GRANT AND WHO CAN I FORD IT AND WHO CAN'T, IF WE LOOK AT THE GRANT AND THE FUNDERS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SAY, HOW MANY OF THE NUMBER ONE STARS HAVE ANY OF THE GRANT SYSTEMS BEEN ABLE TO SAY THAT THEY PERSONALLY...

Alan says ALL OF THEM. ALL OF THEM. I MEAN, THERE ARE RECORD LABELS RIGHT NOW, THE BIG MAJOR RECORD LABELS HAVE GRANT WRITERS WHO ARE ACTUALLY WRITING GRANTS ON BEHALF OF THE ARTISTS THAT THEY HAVE ON THEIR ROSTER.

Erin says ABSOLUTELY. BUT I AM AN 18-YEAR-OLD KID AND I'M COMING FROM AN UNDERSERVED COMMUNITY, I DON'T HAVE MONEY TO GIVE TO A GRANT WRITER TO WRITE THAT GRANT.

Kiana says THE BIG RECORD LABELS AREN'T LOOKING AT...

Steve says JON, BACK TO THE ORIGINAL ARGUMENT. WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE LIKE THE WEEKND OR DRAKE, ALESSIA CARA, WHETHER THEY COULD HAVE HAD THE SUCCESS THEY HAVE TODAY IF NOT FOR AN INDUSTRY THAT HAD BEEN INCUBATED BY CAN CON REGULATIONS GOING BACK TO THE 1970s?

Jon says SO NOT TO BE KIND OF A FENCE STRADDLER, BUT I AGREE WITH BOTH OF YOU GUYS. TO ALAN'S POINT, YOU HAVE TO CREATE THAT INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE WAS 100 PERCENT CREATED BY THOSE CAN CON RULES. WHEN YOU LISTENED TO AN ARTIST THAT WAS FROM CANADA BEFORE THE CAN CON RULES, THEY JUST SOUNDED OFF ON THE RADIO SO THEY HAD TO COME UP TO MEET EACH OTHER. ON THE OTHER HAND, AS A RESULT OF THAT, YOU HAVE A CERTAIN GATEKEEPER, WHICH DOESN'T ALLOW FOR CERTAIN GENRE-BASED ARTISTS TO, YOU KNOW, THE PLAYING FIELD ON THAT WAS NOT EVEN. SO I AGREE WITH BOTH OF YOU. I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY THE CAN CON RULES HELPED CANADA ESTABLISH A CULTURE, BUT PERHAPS THAT CULTURE NEEDS TO BE REVAMPED.

Steve says ERIN, WE'RE ALMOST IN A BOUNDARYLESS OR BORDERLESS WORLD TODAY WHEN IT COMES TO MUSIC THESE DAYS. SIGNALS FLY ALL OVER THE PLACE. SOME PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE THE INTERNET HAS MADE CAN CON OR THE CRTC OR THESE KIND OF REGULATORS IRRELEVANT THESE DAYS. ARE THESE KINDS OF THINGS STILL IMPORTANT?

Erin says FOR SURE IT'S STILL IMPORTANT. IT GIVES US AN UPPER HAND AS CANADIAN ARTISTS, AS A CANADIAN INDUSTRY TO BE HEARD. BUT WHEN WE HAVE STREAMING NOW, WHEN WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, PLATFORMS THAT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY... ARE NOT REGULATED BY CAN CON, HOW DOES THAT PLAY INTO OUR WORLD TODAY AND HOW DOES THAT LEVERAGE CANADIAN ARTISTS WHEN YOU STILL HAVE CAN CON BUT YOU HAVE A BIGGER PLATFORM WHEN YOU ARE ABLE TO JUST OCCUPY THE SPACE THAT IS NOT REGULATED.

Steve says ARE YOU SAYING WE SHOULD GET RID OF CANADIAN CONTENT REGULATIONS ALTOGETHER?

Kiana says I AGREE 100 PERCENT. NETFLIX CAME INTO OUR MARKET AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO APPLY TO THE CAN CON RULES. WHEN YOU HAVE THEM MAKING SO MUCH IN THE CANADIAN ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY, I THINK THAT CAN CON IS AN IMPORTANT PIECE OF MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH 330 MILLION PEOPLE SOUTH OF US FOR 31 MILLION POPULATION, BUT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE GOING IN THAT DIGITAL SPACE, WE'RE MAKING SURE THAT APPLE PLAYLIST, SPOTIFY PLAYLISTS REPRESENT US, THEY NEED TO ABIDE BY THE CAN CON RULES.

Alan says THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH A LOT OF THESE STREAMING COMPANIES. NONE OF THEM PAY SALES TAX FROM WHAT WE PAY THEM. THAT GIANT SUCKING SOUND IS ALL OUR CANADIAN DOLLARS GOING TO SILICON VALLEY. THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO BE LOOKING AT OVER THE NEXT 18 MONTHS IN TERMS OF A RADIO REVIEW AND BROADCASTING REVIEW, HOW DO WE EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD, THIS TRADITIONAL RADIO RIGHT NOW PUTS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO THE SYSTEM EVERY SINGLE YEAR. MEANWHILE, THE NEW TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS MOSTLY FOREIGN-BASED, DOESN'T HAVE TO DO THE SAME SORT OF... MAKE THE SAME SORT OF INVESTMENT IN OUR ECOSYSTEM. THAT HAS SOMEHOW GOT TO CHANGE.

Steve says HOW DO YOU CAPTURE THEM IN A CANADIAN CONTENT WORLD WHERE THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES AND THEY'RE NOT DOMESTIC PLAYERS?

Alan says THIS IS THE ISSUE. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, WE ARE LIVING NEXT TO AN ELEPHANT, THE GREATEST NET EXPORTER OF POPULAR CULTURE ON THE PLANET, AND IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING, IT IS... YOU KNOW, WE CAN HAVE ALL THE GLOBAL PLATFORMS THAT WE WANT, IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING TO MAINTAIN THE SUPPORT OF WHAT WE GIVE OUR DOMESTIC ARTISTS, WE'RE IN BIG TROUBLE.

Steve says DO YOU THINK, ROOKZ, THAT THE PEOPLE BEHIND CAN CON ARE TOO FOCUSED ON BUILDING ARTISTS AS OPPOSED TO SOMETHING ELSE?

Kiana says I THINK THAT ONE OF THE STRUGGLES THAT I SEE OVERALL IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY IN GENERAL IS JUST THAT CANADA FOCUSES A LOT ON THE EXPRESSION OF ART, AND I THINK WE NEED TO, YOU KNOW, FOCUS AS WELL ON THE INDUSTRY THAT CREATES AND SUPPORTS AN ARTIST, RIGHT? IF WE ARE CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT FUNDING GOING TO, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, AN ARTIST BEING ABLE TO WRITE... OR GOING TO GET A GRANT. IN ANOTHER SYSTEM, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ELEPHANT, THE REASON THE ELEPHANT IS SO BIG IS BECAUSE THE ELEPHANT RECOGNIZES TALENT, GOES OUT, GETS THE TALENT, GIVES THE TALENT THE 20 THINGS THAT THEY NEED. WHEREAS IN CANADA, THE TALENT HAS TO RECOGNIZE WHAT IT NEEDS, GO OUT AND GET... IT'S SUCH A REVERSE...

Alan says I DISAGREE WITH THAT BECAUSE IN AMERICA, THE IDEA... THEY DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORT SYSTEMS THAT WE HAVE WHEN IT COMES TO...

Kiana says NO, THEY HAVE RECORD LABELS THAT WILL THROW 100,000 dollars TO AN ARTIST...

Alan says WE DON'T HAVE LABELS OR 100,000 dollars. WE HAVE FACTOR AND STARMAKER AND A NUMBER OF OTHER GRANTS YOU CAN GET.

Kiana says WHICH I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN. GETTING A GRANT, POSSIBLY GETTING A 2500 dollars... WHEN WE LOOK AT FACTOR AND RADIO STARMAKER AND ALL THESE PLACES, FACTOR, UNLESS YOU HAVE GONE OUT TO THE U.S. AND HAD, LIKE, THREE SHOWS IN THE STATES, YOUR STAR RATING DOESN'T GO UP. EVERYTHING IS BY RATING SYSTEM. SO 2500 dollars THAT YOU CAN APPLY FOR TWICE OVER THE SPAN OF 24 MONTHS VERSUS THE ABILITY FOR A LABEL TO SAY, HERE'S 15,000 dollars. I THINK THAT IN GENERAL, THE INVESTMENT HAS TO BE, ARE WE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE... YOU KNOW, ERIN HAS BEEN WRITING FOR EXCLAIM EXCLAIM! MAGAZINE FOR A VERY LONG TIME, YOU'RE PART OF A NETFLIX SERIES AS WELL, HIP-HOP REVOLUTION. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE THEN GO AND PUMP 50,000 dollars TO GIVE HER AN ONLINE PLATFORM...

Steve says YOU WOULD BE OKAY WITH THAT, WOULDN'T YOU?

Erin says I'D BE OKAY WITH IT. LOVE IT.

Kiana says I JUST THINK THAT'S WHAT I'M SEEING A LOT MORE. I JUST MENTIONED EARLIER TODAY I LIVE IN THE STATES PART TIME NOW, IN ATLANTA, WHICH IS A SYSTEM THAT I'M SEEING, SAYING, HEY, WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THINGS BEFORE THEY BLOW UP SO WE CAN PUMP OUR DOLLARS INTO THEM, SO THERE'S AN ROI. I BELIEVE IN THE GRANT SYSTEM. IF THERE WAS MORE A CONNECTED ROI, WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THIS PERSON 2500 dollars BECAUSE WE RECOGNIZE THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED AND WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO CREATE THESE SUPPORTS AND THAT'S GOING TO BRING 10,000 dollars INTO THE ECONOMY.

Steve says LET ME GET ERIN IN ON THIS SO I CAN BETTER UNDERSTAND THIS. WE DO HAVE A FINITE POOL OF MONEY TO INVEST IN THIS.

Erin says RIGHT.

Steve says IS IT BETTER TO TRY TO GIVE IT DIRECTLY TO ARTISTS TO TRY TO CREATE STARS OR IS IT BETTER TO PUT IT TOWARDS A SYSTEM THAT THEORETICALLY WILL ALLOW THOSE WHO ARE THE BEST TO RISE TO THE TOP?

Erin says REALISTICALLY, IT'S BETTER TO GIVE IT TO ARTISTS DIRECTLY AND ALLOW THEM TO MANAGE WHAT THEY DO WITH THAT. NOT TO SAY IT HAS TO GO TO EVERY ARTIST. BUT THOSE WHO CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A BUSINESS PLAN READY, WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, WHO ARE ALREADY TRUDGING THE LINES BETWEEN THE STATES AND HERE, WHO ARE EXPORT READY. I THINK WE NEED TO START GIVING MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPORT READY BEFORE WE START LOSING OUR ARTISTS, WHICH WE HAVE TIME AND TIME AGAIN. WE LOSE THEM TO THE STATES AND EUROPE AND EVENTUALLY THEY COME HOME AND THEY'RE STILL NOT RECOGNIZED. I WAS LOOKING AT THE CANADIAN HALL OF FAME AND WHO WAS IN THE OTHER DAY. OF THE 59 INDUCTEES, THERE'S ONLY ONE BLACK PERSON. THERE'S ONLY ONE CREE PERSON. THERE'S ONLY ONE BROWN PERSON. SO WHY CAN WE NOT RECOGNIZE OUR OWN, BOTH IN FUNDING AND BOTH IN, YOU KNOW, GENERAL EXCITEMENT FOR BEING A CANADIAN ARTIST?

Steve says I'M GOING TO SHOW MY IGNORANCE HERE. THE CANADIAN HALL OF FAME, WHERE IS THAT?

Erin says I BELIEVE IT'S IN CALGARY.

Steve says WHY ARE THOSE NUMBERS AS LOPSIDED AS THEY ARE?

Alan says THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT OF HOW THE KEY MUSIC... THERE HASN'T BEEN A HOME FOR THE CANADIAN MUSIC HALL OF FAME UNTIL THE NATIONAL MUSIC CENTRE. IT'S KIND OF LAGGED. YOU CAN NOMINATE SOMEBODY FOR IT, BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? IT WAS A VIRTUAL AMORPHOUS THING. NOW THAT WE HAVE A PHYSICAL HOME FOR IT, THIS WILL CHANGE.

Kiana says I THINK JON SPOKE TO SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT, LIKE THE CHANGING OF THE GUARD. WE ALL HAVE OUR PERSPECTIVES. I FEEL REALLY LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO SIT AT THIS TABLE. BUT ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS THAT I THINK CANADA NEEDS TO RECOGNIZE IS THAT IMMIGRANTS... I'M A FIRST GENERATION CANADIAN IMMIGRANT, ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING THE MUSIC INDUSTRY WHAT IT IS RIGHT NOW IN CANADA, AND THEY OFTEN HAVE BEEN OUTSIDE OF THIS SYSTEM THAT WORKS. YOU KNOW, LIKE I CAN WORK ALL OVER THE WORLD AND I'M STILL NOT RECOGNIZED VERY MUCH SO IN CANADA FOR THE WORK THAT I DO.

Steve says THAT IS NOT A NEW PHENOMENON OF A CANADIAN ARTIST BEING BETTER RECOGNIZED OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY THAN INSIDE.

Alan says THAT GOES BACK...

Steve says THAT GOES BACK 50 YEARS.

Alan says SURE. 100 PERCENT.

Erin says BUT ESPECIALLY FOR FIRST GENERATION KIDS AND IMMIGRANTS. IT'S EVEN A HARDER SYSTEM TO CRACK.

Steve says JON, WE HAVE ABOUT FIVE MINUTES TO GO HERE. I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, WHEN IT COMES TO PRODUCING INTERNATIONALLY SUCCESSFUL ARTISTS WHO ARE FROM THIS COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, SOME WOULD ARGUE WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF A GOLDEN AGE OF CANADIAN MUSIC RIGHT NOW. ARE YOU ON THAT PAGE?

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Jon says 100 PERCENT. I THINK THAT WE ARE. THE FACT THAT WE'RE SITTING HERE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION KIND OF... IS AN OFFSHOOT OF THAT IDEA, OF THAT... TO QUOTE... TO MISQUOTE THE GUARDIAN AS I DID IN 2015, THAT COOL CANADIANA, THE BELIEF THAT WE CAN EXIST ALONGSIDE AMERICANS AND THE U.K. IN TERMS OF OUR PRODUCTION, AND JUST TO KIND OF REITERATE ROOKZ' POINT, I THINK THAT THAT SHOULD INDICATE THAT A CHANGE OF THE GUARD IS NEEDED. THE GATEKEEPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED TO RECALIBRATE WHAT CANADIAN OUTPUT IS AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE FUNDING IN THIS COUNTRY.

Alan says THERE'S ALL KINDS OF MARKET FORCES AT WORK HERE, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF DEMOGRAPHIC FORCES AND ETHNOGRAPHIC FORCES THAT ARE WORKING. IT'S AN EVOLVING SITUATION. CANADIAN MUSIC REALLY STARTED TO COME UNTO ITS OWN WITH THE RISE OF CANROCK IN THE 1990s. THAT'S WHEN THIS NATIONALISTIC THING BEGAN TO TAKE HOLD WITH PEOPLE DEMANDING CANADIAN MUSIC FROM CANADIAN ARTISTS AND SUPPORTING THEM BOTH BY BUYING RECORDS AND GOING TO SHOWS. THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT GROUNDSWELL OF PRIDE IN CANADIAN STUFF. IT BEGINS WITH THE TRAGICALLY HIP, REALLY, AND MOVES FORWARD. NOW WITH THE CHANGING FACE OF THE CANADIAN POPULATION, IT'S GOING TO EVOLVE. IT'S GOING TO CHANGE INTO SOMETHING ELSE. IN MOST PARTS OF THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, ROCK 'N' ROLL IS NOT THE CULTURAL DRIVER IT USED TO BE. IN THE UNITED STATES, HIP-HOP AND RAP IS DEFINITELY THE NUMBER ONE MUSIC. ROCK, IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IS STILL LEADING IN CANADA, BUT HIP-HOP AND RAP IS COMING UP RIGHT BEHIND YOU.

Erin says AND COUNTRY.

Alan says WELL, COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, EBBS AND FLOWS RIGHT NOW.

Erin says RIGHT.

Alan says AND THERE'S A BIG ISSUE ABOUT WOMEN IN COUNTRY RIGHT NOW. THEY'RE BEING SO TERRIBLY UNDER REPRESENTED.

Erin says THAT'S RIGHT.

Alan says AS A NATION OF 36 MILLION PEOPLE, WE HAVE LONG PUNCHED ABOVE OUR WEIGHT ON THE NATIONAL STAGE, INTERNATIONAL STAGE. WE ARE THE NUMBER 5 OR NUMBER 6 IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF THE MUSIC MARKET DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS WITH AUSTRALIA IN ANY GIVEN YEAR. AND IF OUR ETHNOGRAPHIC DEMOGRAPHIC MAKEUP DEMANDS THAT WE CHANGE INTO SOMETHING ELSE, IT'LL CHANGE.

Steve says I MEAN, I'M ASSUMING THAT GUYS WHO ARE CLOSER TO OUR AGE ARE MORE INTO THE ROCK 'N' ROLL THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSER TO THESE TWO AGES, THEY'RE INTO THE NEW STUFF.

Alan says PRETTY MUCH.

Kiana says I GREW UP IN CANADA. ONE OF MY FAVOURITE THINGS ABOUT BEING FROM TORONTO IS I GOT TO LISTEN TO ALANIS MORRISETTE AND NICKELBACK AND KARDINAL OFFISHALL, JULLY BLACK AND MORE. I THINK THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE RIGHT NOW IS THE GUARD DOESN'T... I LOVE SITTING NEXT TO ALAN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN ON PANELS WITH HIM BEFORE. IT'S ABOUT MERGING EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING. IT'S HAVING THE PERSPECTIVES COMING TOGETHER SO WE CAN CREATE A BETTER ECONOMY FOR ARTISTS IN CANADA BECAUSE THE OTHER PIECE OF THIS IS AUDIENCE DEVELOPMENT. IF WE DON'T HAVE A SHARED AUDIENCE, WHEN YOU GO TO THE STATES AND YOU LOOK AT WHO IS AT A CONCERT AT ANY GIVEN TIME, ESPECIALLY URBAN MUSIC, IT'S SO MIXED. US MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE GETTING TOGETHER THAT WE'RE HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS AND WE'RE SITTING DOWN AT TABLES LIKE THIS TO SHARE PERSPECTIVES, THIS IS HOW WE START TO... I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THE GUARD. LET'S JOIN FORCES AND MAKE SURE WE'RE A STRONGER CANADA.

Steve says WITH A MINUTE LEFT TO GO, JON, YOU WORK WITH THE CBC I GATHER TO PRODUCE THAT TRAGICALLY HIP'S LAST CONCERT, WHICH IS SO ICONIC FOR SO MANY PEOPLE. I WANTED TO ASK YOU: FROM WHAT I HEAR, YOUR GIRLFRIEND HAD SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THOSE EFFORTS. WHAT DID SHE SAY?

Jon says HA HA. WE WERE SITTING IN THE CINEMA AT CBC AND WATCHING THE LAST CONCERT. SHE JUST SAID, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY... YOU'RE PART OF SOMETHING SPECIAL. AND IT WAS SOMETHING SPECIAL. IT UNITED A COUNTRY IN... TRYING TO FIND ITS IDENTITY. AND I THINK TO ALAN'S POINT EARLIER, GORD SAW THAT AS A GOOD PLATFORM TO TALK ABOUT INDIGENOUS ISSUES AND TO ROOKZ' POINT, I THINK THE KIND OF MELDING OF THE GUARD, FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, YOU NEED THE OLD GUARD TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT NEEDS TO BE MELDED, AND GORD DID A GOOD JOB OF THAT. I'M NOT THE WORLD'S BIGGEST TRAGICALLY HIP FAN BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, BUT YOU HAVE TO APPLAUD HIS EFFORTS THERE. IF I CAN JUST BRING IT BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, THE CAN CON RENAISSANCE, IF YOU WILL, OF MATTHEW GOOD AND TEA PARTY AND THAT ERA THAT ALAN BROUGHT UP EARLIER, WHAT CHANGED WAS THE INTERNET. I DID A STORY ON THE CBC ABOUT THIS. WHAT CHANGED WAS THE INTERNET. DEMOCRATIZING THE IDEA OF WHO CAN LISTEN TO MUSIC AND HOW, THE ABILITY NOT TO PAY 30 dollars FOR A RECORD, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ABILITY FOR ARTISTS TO PUT OUT MUSIC FOR WAY LESS MONEY AND HAVE IT SOUND GOOD, THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHAT'S BRINGING THIS ALL TO THE TABLE, IN MY MIND. THE CANADIAN IDENTITY CAN EVOLVE.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman; Student Intern: Charlie Buckley."

Steve says WE'RE ALL FOR DEMOCRACY ON THIS PROGRAM. THAT'S JON DEKEL, FREELANCE JOURNALIST FROM NEW YORK CITY. JON, THANKS FOR BEING THERE IN THE BIG APPLE FOR US. ERIN ASHLEY, ALAN CROSS, KIANA EASTMOND, SO GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE IN OUR STUDIO IN TORONTO.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Canadian Music: Modest No More?