Transcript: Ontario's New Animal Protection Force | Jan 23, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and checkered blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Ontario's NMew Animal Protection Force. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says FOR THE PAST HUNDRED
YEARS, THE CHARITABLE
ORGANIZATION KNOWN AS THE OSPCA,
THE ONTARIO SOCIETY FOR THE
PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO
ANIMALS, OVERSAW ANIMAL WELFARE
IN THIS PROVINCE.
THAT CHANGED ON JANUARY 1 OF
THIS YEAR.
PROMPTED BY A COURT RULING THAT
DEEMED THAT ARRANGEMENT
UNCONSTITUTIONAL, THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT HAS NOW INITIATED A
WHOLE NEW SYSTEM OF ANIMAL
WELFARE.
KENDRA COULTER IS CHAIR OF
LABOUR STUDIES AT BROCK
UNIVERSITY AND A FELLOW AT THE
OXFORD CENTRE FOR ANIMAL ETHICS,
AND SHE JOINS US NOW FOR MORE ON
THE CHANGES.

Kendra is in her late thirties, with shoulder-length wavy blond hair and bangs. She's wearing a dark blazer, a white blouse, and pearl earrings.

Steve continues GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK HERE.

Kendra says VERY
PLEASED TO BE HERE.

Steve says LET'S START OUT WITH
THIS.
THIS IS A BIT OF AN ANOMALY, I
THINK YOU WOULD AGREE.
HOW IS IT UP UNTIL A CENTURY
FROM NOW ANIMALS IN ONTARIO HAVE
BEEN PROTECTED BY A PRIVATE
CHARITY AS OPPOSED TO BY THE
GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY?

The caption changes to "Kendra Coulter. Brock University."

Kendra says IT'S CERTAINLY UNUSUAL.
CRIMES AGAINST ANIMALS ARE THE
ONLY KIND OF CRIME THAT HASN'T
BEEN PROTECTED BY PUBLIC
AGENCIES OR PUBLIC ENFORCEMENT.
THINK ABOUT 100 YEARS AGO.
WE HAD HORSE CARRIAGES ALL OVER
THE STREETS.
THERE WAS A LOT OF VISIBLE
ABUSE, A LOT OF POVERTY, AND
PEOPLE THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, THOSE
IN THE UPPER CLASSES THAT HAD A
LITTLE MORE MONEY, HAD A LITTLE
MORE TIME, WERE, YOU KNOW,
OBJECTING TO THIS AND THOUGHT IF
WE DON'T DO THIS, NO ONE ELSE
WILL, WHICH IS PROBABLY TRUE,
BUT THAT HAS ENDURED IN ONTARIO
UNTIL NOW.

Steve says UNTIL JANUARY 1ST.
I'M TRYING TO THINK OF IT THE
OTHER DAY.
CAN YOU THINK OF ANY OTHER
SECTOR WHERE CHARITY WORKERS
WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR
ENFORCEMENT POWERS NORMALLY HELD
BY THE STATE OR THE POLICE OR
SOMETHING ELSE?

The caption changes to "Kendra Coulter. Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics."

Kendra says THE ONLY THING EVEN SOMEWHAT
COMPARABLE WOULD BE CHILDREN'S
AID SOCIETIES, BUT THEY WOULD
RECEIVE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF
GOVERNMENT FUNDING AND
GOVERNMENT REGULATION, EVEN
THOUGH... IT WOULDN'T BE POLICE
OFFICERS DOING THAT WORK, BUT
ANIMALS ARE STILL VERY UNUSUAL.

The caption changes to "100 years of charity."

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S JUST GET INTO SOME OF THE
BACKGROUND.
NO REASON TO DWELL ON THE LEGAL
PROCEEDINGS THAT BROUGHT US TO
THIS POINT.
BUT SUFFICE IT TO SAY, AS A
RESULT OF COURT RULINGS, THE
PROVINCE HAS DECIDED TO
COMPLETELY REVAMP THINGS AND
THIS IS WHAT THEY'VE COME UP
WITH AN ADORABLE ACRONYM, I
SHOULD ADD: THE PROVINCIAL
ANIMAL SERVICES ACT, PAWS.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Preventing animal abuse in Ontario."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
ONTARIO HAS CREATED THE FIRST
FULLY PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT-RUN
ANIMAL WELFARE ENFORCEMENT
SYSTEM IN CANADA.
IT INCLUDES A SPECIALIZED TEAM
OF ABOUT 100 INSPECTORS WHO WILL
INSPECT ZOOS AND AQUARIUMS AND
LIVESTOCK AND HORSES.
THEY'LL ALSO BE ALLOWED TO SAVE
PETS LEFT IN CARS DURING EXTREME
WEATHER CONDITIONS.
THERE WILL BE STIFFER PENALTIES
FOR ANIMAL CRUELTY, THE HIGHEST,
IN FACT, IN ALL OF CANADA.
UP TO A MILLION DOLLARS IN FINES
OR UP TO TWO YEARS IN JAIL FOR
CERTAIN OFFENCES.
THERE WILL BE NEW OFFENCES FOR
DOG-FIGHTING OR HARMING A POLICE
DOG OR SERVICE ANIMAL.
THERE'S NOW A NEW 24-7 ANIMAL
DISTRESS HOT LINE.
THE NUMBER IS, MAKE A NOTE,
1-833-9-ANIMAL.
1-833-9-ANIMA, 264625.
AND ANYBODY CAN CALL AND REPORT
ABUSE.
AND THAT WILL BE OVERSEEN BY THE
AUDITOR GENERAL, THE OMBUDSMAN,
THE PRIVACY COMMISSIONER, AND
THE PROVINCIAL FREEDOM OF
INFORMATION LAWS.
OKAY.
THAT'S THE SORT OF NEW, MUCH
MORE COMPREHENSIVE MISSION
STATEMENT FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO.
YOU'RE A PROFESSOR.
WHAT LETTER GRADE WOULD YOU GIVE
IT?

The caption changes to "New and improved?"

Kendra says A SOLID B WITH ROOM FOR
IMPROVEMENT.

Steve says OKAY.
HOW COME?

The caption changes to "Kendra Coulter, @DrKendraCoulter."

Kendra says IT'S... WE'RE CAUTIOUSLY
OPTIMISTIC.
THE LEGISLATION IS LAYING A
SOLID FOUNDATION AND THE
SOLICITOR GENERAL'S OFFICE HAS
INDICATED SOME COMPLEMENTARY
POLICIES THAT WILL SUPPORT THAT
LEGISLATION.
SO AS YOU MENTION, WE'RE LOOKING
AT ABOUT A HUNDRED OFFICERS.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT NUMBER
DOUBLED IN THE MEDIUM TERM AND
WE CAN CERTAINLY LOOK AT
INCREASES BEYOND THAT IN THE
LONGER TERM TO OPEN UP THE
POSSIBILITY FOR THINGS LIKE
PARTNERS, ET CETERA.
BUT THIS IS SMART POLICY.
YOU KNOW, THERE WERE A RANGE OF
PUBLIC OPTIONS AVAILABLE WHEN
THE OSPCA INDICATED THAT IT
WOULD BE BACKING AWAY FROM
ENFORCEMENT AND WE ASSESSED THEM
QUITE CAREFULLY AND ORGANIZED
THAT A DEDICATED ANIMAL
PROTECTION FORCE OVERSEEN AT THE
PROVINCIAL LEVEL WOULD BE THE
SMARTEST OPTION FOR ONTARIO.
SO WE'RE PLEASED.
NOW WE WANT TO SEE IT
IMPLEMENTED THOUGHTFULLY AND
EFFECTIVELY IN ORDER TO GIVE
ANIMALS THE BEST PROTECTION AND
THE FRONT LINE WORKERS WHO ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS VERY
DIFFICULT WORK.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says BY WAY OF
COMPARISON, MANITOBA HAS ABOUT
10 percent OF OUR POPULATION.
THEY HAVE 100 OFFICERS.

Kendra says EXACTLY.

Steve says YOU'RE THINKING WE
OUGHT TO HAVE A LOT MORE THAN
100.

Kendra says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says AND CONVERSELY, 65
OFFICERS.
SO WE'RE ALMOST DOUBLY BETTER
OFF; IS THAT NOT FAIR TO SAY AS
WELL?

Kendra says 2015 THEY HAD 21 OFFICERS AND
IT'S BEEN INCREASING.
OUR GEOGRAPHY AND OUR POPULATION
ARE VERY GOOD REASONS FOR WHY WE
SHOULD BE INCREASING THAT
NUMBER.

Steve says HAVE INSPECTORS, THE
NEW INSPECTORS, HAVE THEY BEEN
GRANTED POWERS THAT THE PREVIOUS
OSPCA INSPECTORS WOULD HAVE HAD?

Kendra says THIS IS AN AMBITIOUS PLAN AND
THERE'S A MORE HOLISTIC APPROACH
WHERE THE INSPECTORS HAVE A FEW
ADDITIONAL POWERS BUT THE PUBLIC
ALSO HAS THE PROTECTIONS AND THE
ACCOUNTABILITY OF THIS BEING IN
THE PUBLIC SECTOR.
SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE CONCERNS
WITH HAVING A PRIVATE
ORGANIZATION WITH POLICE-LIKE
POWERS.
SO NOW WE CAN ALL FEEL MUCH MORE
CONFIDENT THAT THIS IS GOING TO
BE CENTRALLY COORDINATED,
CENTRALLY OVERSEEN, AND IT OPENS
A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR
BETTER PROTECTING ANIMALS,
OFFICERS, AND VULNERABLE PEOPLE
AS WELL.

Steve says KENDRA, I DON'T WANT
TO GROSS PEOPLE OUT, BUT AT THE
SAME TIME, PEOPLE PROBABLY OUGHT
TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON OUT
THERE BECAUSE I SUSPECT A LOT OF
PEOPLE DON'T, WHICH WOULD
EXPLAIN WHY YOU CARE ABOUT THIS
ISSUE SO MUCH.
SO WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SORT OF
MOST COMMON ACTS OF CRUELTY
INSPECTORS FIND WHEN THEY FIND
ANIMALS THAT HAVE BEEN ABUSED?

Kendra says MM-HMM.
ANIMAL CRUELTY EXISTS ON A
SPECTRUM.
A LOT OF THE CASES CAN...
THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG, BUT
THEY CAN BE FIXED QUITE EASILY.
WE DON'T NEED TO MOVE INTO THE
MORE AMBITIOUS PENALTIES,
ET CETERA, NEGOTIATION.
IT'S REALLY A MULTI-TALENTED
SKILL-SET THAT'S NEEDED TO DO
THIS WORK BECAUSE IT'S PART LAW
ENFORCEMENT, PART SOCIAL WORKER,
PART NURSE.
THEY ARE SEEING THINGS MOST OF
US COULDN'T STOMACH AND THEY'RE
SEEING THEM CONTINUOUSLY.

Steve says SUCH AS...

Kendra says IT'S QUITE COMMON TO SEE
NEGLECT, YOU MOVE INTO
EMACIATION, YOU DO SEE HOARDING
IS QUITE COMMON AND IT'S VERY
CHALLENGING BECAUSE IT'S A
MENTAL HEALTH DISORDER AND THE
PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW
THEY'RE CAUSING HARM TO 10, 20,
HUNDREDS OF ANIMALS THAT MAY BE
IN THEIR CAR.
THESE OFFICERS ARE SEEING VERY
DIFFICULT SITUATIONS AND
SOMETIMES IT'S NOT ONLY ANIMALS
WHO ARE BEING BURNED OR STARVED,
YOU KNOW, THEIR MOUTHED TAPED
SHUT, THROWN OFF BALCONIES, ALL
THESE REALLY ABHORRENT THINGS,
THEY'RE SEEING THE ABUSE OF
WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Steve says WHO DOES THIS?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Kendra says SOME ARE NOT HARMING ANIMALS
ON PURPOSE.
INSPECTORS NEED TO BE ABLE TO
DETERMINE... WE NEED EDUCATION
AND RESOURCES.
YOU MOVE ALONG THE LINE.
THERE'S CERTAINLY SOCIOPATHIC
BEHAVIOUR AND PSYCHOPATHIC
BEHAVIOUR FOR THE VERY SERIOUS
CRIMINAL OFFENCES.
THERE'S ALSO THINGS LIKE
DOG-FIGHTING WHICH IS ONE OF THE
MOST APPALLING KINDS OF ANIMAL
ABUSE BECAUSE OF THE LOYALTY
THAT'S CULTIVATED AND THEN THE
HARM THAT'S CAUSED TO THE DOGS
OR THE ROOSTERS.
IT'S QUITE COMMON IN ONTARIO.

Steve says IT'S COMMON?

Kendra says PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT.
IT'S OFTEN LINKED TO ADDITIONAL
CRIMES, FIREARMS, NARCOTICS,
SOMETIMES HUMAN TRAFFICKING.
IT'S VERY CHALLENGING.
AND THE OFFICERS MAY BE
IDENTIFYING THAT.
IN THOSE CASES THEY'RE GOING TO
BE INVOLVING THE OPP OR OTHER
POLICE SERVICES BECAUSE THAT'S
NECESSARY AND VERY SERIOUS.

Steve says HAVE YOU HEARD OF A
SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE HAS GONE
TO JAIL FOR MISTREATING ANIMALS?

The caption changes to "The gateway crime."

Kendra says IT'S VERY UNCOMMON.
IT'S MOST LIKELY TO HAPPEN IN
THOSE INSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE ARE
BEING ABUSED SIMULTANEOUSLY.
THERE MIGHT BE A FEW CHARGES
RELATED TO PEOPLE AND TO
ANIMALS, BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN,
MOST OF THOSE CASES, THERE'S
SOMETHING WRONG BUT WE CAN SOLVE
THEM.
THAT SAID, NOW THAT WE HAVE THIS
ROBUST PUBLIC INVESTMENT, I
THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE
DISCOVERING MORE AND MORE THINGS
THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW WERE GOING
ON AND UNDISCOVERED CRIMES,
INCLUDING HELPING CHILDREN AND
WOMEN WHO ARE BEING ABUSED THAT
WE MIGHT NOT HAVE FOUND
OTHERWISE BECAUSE IT'S DIFFICULT
FOR HUMANS TO REPORT OR
SELF-REPORT AND SOMETIMES HARD
TO SEE IF CHILDREN ARE HIDING
THEIR ABUSE, AND IF WE USE THE
ANIMAL INVESTIGATIONS, IF
OFFICERS ARE LOOKING FOR
EVERYBODY, WHICH THEY ARE, THAT
OPENS THE DOOR FOR NEW
POSSIBILITIES FOR PROTECTING
VULNERABLE PEOPLE AS WELL.

Steve says IS THAT TO SUGGEST
THAT WHEN YOU HARM ANIMALS,
THAT'S IN SOME RESPECTS A
GATEWAY CRIME?

Kendra says IT CAN BE, YES.
THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT BODY OF
RESEARCH ON WHAT WE CALL THE
LINK BETWEEN HUMAN AND ANIMAL
VIOLENCE.
SO IN SOME INSTANCES IT'S A
PRECURSOR, THAT YOU HARM ANIMALS
BEFORE MOVING ON TO PEOPLE.
SOMETIMES IT'S MORE GENERALIZED,
WHICH IS THAT A LOT OF SENTIENT
BEINGS AROUND YOU ARE BEING
HARMED BY YOU.

Steve says IF YOU HAD TO PUT A
RATIO ON IT, THOSE WHO PURPOSELY
GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO BE CRUEL
TO ANIMALS VERSUS THOSE WHO ARE,
IF I CAN PUT IT THIS WAY, SIMPLY
NEGLECTFUL AND DON'T REALIZE
THAT THEY'RE HARMING ANIMALS
BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN
PECULIARITIES, HAVE YOU GOT A
RATIO OF WHERE IT'S AT IN THE
PROVINCE TODAY?

Kendra says THE LATTER IS MORE COMMON.
THAT SAID, BECAUSE WE'VE HAD A
CHARITY DOING THIS WORK AND THAT
HAS BEEN THE CASE IN MOST
CANADIAN PROVINCES AND ENGLAND,
NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA,
ET CETERA.
WE HAVE A SHORTAGE OF DATA.
AS A RESEARCHER I'M LOOKING
FORWARD TO BUT ALL OF US WILL BE
BETTER SERVED BY EVIDENCE-BASED
POLICY MAKING THAT IN FIVE YEARS
WE'LL HAVE FAR BETTER RECORDS
AND MORE CONSOLIDATED RECORDS
FROM ACROSS THE PROVINCES THAT
SOMEONE CAN'T BE COMMITTING ONE
CRIME IN THUNDER BAY AND THEN
DOING IT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IN
PETERBOROUGH, THAT WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE MORE CONCERTED,
EFFECTIVE RECORDKEEPING AND DATA
SO WE'LL HAVE AN EVEN BETTER
SENSE.

Steve says SINCE YOU MENTIONED
OTHER COUNTRIES THERE I GUESS WE
SHOULD PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE WHAT
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO IS
TRYING TO DO NOW COMPARED TO HOW
OTHERS ARE DOING IT AROUND THE
WORLD.
WHERE ARE WE ON THAT SPECTRUM?

The caption changes to "Around the world."

Kendra says WE HAVE POTENTIAL TO SET
QUITE A HIGH STANDARD, ACTUALLY.
THIS IS QUITE SOUND PUBLIC
POLICY.
THE FOUNDATION IS THERE.
WE WANT TO SEE SUFFICIENT
FUNDING.
THIS IS AN INVESTMENT, RIGHT?
WE WANT TO SEE IT PROPERLY
RESOURCED, WE WANT TO SEE IT
THOUGHTFULLY ROLLED OUT BECAUSE
THE WORLD IS REALLY WATCHING.
MANITOBA HAS A QUASI-PUBLIC
SYSTEM.
IT'S PUBLICLY FUNDED, WHICH IS
VERY LAUDABLE, BUT IT'S
DISCOVERED BY A HOST OF ACTORS,
SOME OF WHOM WORK FOR HUMANE
SOCIETIES, SOME OF WHOM ARE
INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS...

Steve says IT DOESN'T SOUND
LIKE YOU LIKE THAT VERY MUCH.

Kendra says I THINK FULLY PUBLIC IS THE
MOST EFFECTIVE METHOD FOR
CANADIAN PROVINCES OVERALL.
LOOKING INTERNATIONALLY, AS I
SAY, THE COMMONWEALTH COUNTRIES
ARE STILL HEAVILY RELIANT ON
THIS CHARITY MODEL.
SO THEY'RE VERY INTERESTED IN
OUR RESEARCH, THEY'RE VERY
INTERESTED IN WHAT'S HAPPENING
HERE IN ONTARIO.
U.S. IS A BIT DIFFERENT.
THEY'RE MIXED.
IN ABOUT HALF THE CASES IT'S
POLICE AND ABOUT HALF THE CASES
IT'S COUNTY OR MUNICIPAL ANIMAL
CARE AND CONTROL.
SO THEY'RE DOING THAT MIX OF
WORK WHERE ON THE ONE HAND
THEY'RE COLLECTING STRAYS AND,
YOU KNOW, DEALING WITH DOG BITES
AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, BUT
THEY'RE ALSO, IN TURN,
RESPONSIBLE FOR ANIMAL WELFARE.
SO THAT CAN WORK IN SOME
INSTANCES AT A VERY LOCAL LEVEL.
NORTHERN EUROPE, NOT
SURPRISINGLY, HAS A FAIRLY
ROBUST SYSTEM FOR ANIMAL
PROTECTION.
THEY HAVE SOME DEDICATED ANIMAL
POLICE LIKE THIS.
I'M GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THOSE
CASES IN MORE DETAIL STUDYING
THEM, BUT I THINK HAVING
DEDICATED EXPERTS WHO HAVE THAT
LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING AND
EXPERTISE, BUT THAT ADDITIONAL
KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ANIMALS, IS A
GOOD WAY TO GO AND I LOOK
FORWARD TO SEEING THIS ROLLOUT.
I'M CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC.

Steve says WELL, THAT DOES
RAISE A QUESTION, BECAUSE IF, AS
YOU POINT OUT, THERE ARE GOING
TO BE 100 NEW INSPECTORS NOW
DOING THE WORK THAT THE OSPCA
USED TO DO, HAVE THEY BEEN
ADEQUATELY TRAINED?
DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH TRAINING
THEY'VE GOT?
ARE YOU CONFIDENT ABOUT THE
LEVELS OF TRAINING THEY HAVE?
SPEAK TO THAT, IF YOU WOULD?

The caption changes to "Future endeavours."

Kendra says AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.
I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'VE HAD
SOME TRAINING SO FAR.
MOST OF THEM ARE ON CONTRACT AT
THIS POINT.
IT HAS NOT SURPRISINGLY BEEN A
LOT OF THE FORMER OFFICERS,
WHICH IS A POSITIVE THING FOR
ONTARIO.
THEY IN MANY WAYS ARE THAT
LIVING KNOWLEDGE.
THEY HAVE THE EXPERIENCE, YEARS,
EVEN DECADES.
YOU KNOW, WORKING UNDER VERY
DIFFICULT CONDITIONS, YOU KNOW,
FOR THE OSPCA, FOR A CLARITY,
VERY WELL-INTENTIONED BUT
OBVIOUSLY LACKING THE RESOURCES
THAT THE PUBLIC SECTOR MIGHT
HAVE.
SO THEY'RE GOING TO BE BRINGING
THAT EXPERIENCE WITH THEM, BUT
THE HIRING IS ONGOING, SO WE'RE
GOING TO KNOW PROBABLY THIS
SPRING.
I UNDERSTAND THERE'S BEEN A LOT
OF INTEREST IN THESE POSITIONS.
I MEAN, PEOPLE FEEL VERY
STRONGLY ABOUT THIS.
IT'S DIFFICULT WORK.
IT'S PHYSICALLY RISKY.
IT'S PSYCHOLOGICALLY VERY
CHALLENGING TO BE SEEING MANY
PEOPLE ON THEIR WORST DAYS, MANY
ANIMALS ON THEIR WORST DAYS OR
END OF DAYS, UNFORTUNATELY, IN
SOME CASES, AND SO I'M GOING TO
BE LOOKING TO SEE THAT THEY ARE
GETTING ROBUST TRAINING BUT ALSO
THAT THEY'RE GETTING ROBUST
SUPPORTS WHEN THEY'RE UNDERWAY.
I'D LIKE TO SEE THEIR
PSYCHOLOGICALLY WELL-BEING TAKEN
SERIOUSLY.

Steve says EVERY TIME WE DO
THIS TOPIC, YOU'VE BEEN HERE
BEFORE, THE FEEDBACK GOES UP
EXPONENTIALLY.
THERE IS A GREAT... SOME PEOPLE
MAY NOT REALIZE IT.
THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF
INTEREST OUT THERE IN MAKING
SURE ANIMALS ARE WELL TAKEN CARE OF.

Kendra says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says WE WOULD NOT HAVE
ANTICIPATED THAT.

Kendra says PEOPLE FEEL VERY STRONGLY.

Steve says THEY DO.

Kendra says I HEAR THAT WITH ANY MEDIA
OUTLET I WORK WITH.
WHEN THEY HAVE AN ANIMAL ABUSE
STORY, THE PUBLIC RESPONSE IS
VERY STRONG.
ANIMALS ARE BEST PROTECTED WHEN
WE HAVE A WELL RESOURCED PUBLIC
TEAM OF INSPECTORS.
THAT'S CHALLENGING WORK.
THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT, THEY NEED
OUR RESOURCES, AND LET'S
RECOGNIZE THAT THEY ARE LOOKING,
DAY IN AND DAY OUT, AT STUFF
MOST OF US TURN AWAY FROM.

Steve says I GUESS AS WELL
THERE'S NO PARTISAN POSITION ON
THIS ISSUE, RIGHT?
THIS IS AN ISSUE WHERE ALL THE
POLITICAL DECISION MAKERS AGREE,
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT PARTY
YOU'RE FROM, NO ONE WANTS TO SEE
THIS, RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Kendra says THIS IS A CROSS PARTISAN
ISSUE.
IT'S A MATTER OF GROWING PUBLIC
ETHICAL CONCERN, IT'S A PUBLIC
ISSUE.

Steve says WE STARTED THIS
DISCUSSION, AS YOU SAID, MAYBE
IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE A TOUGH
MARKER, YOU GIVE THEM A SOLID B.
WHICH IS NOT AN A BUT IT'S A
SOLID B.
SO WHAT AREAS DID THIS NEW
LEGISLATION MISS, IN YOUR VIEW?

Kendra says I WOULD LIKE TO SEE GREATER
INVESTMENT AND A RECOGNITION OF
THE IMPORTANCE OF VETERINARY
FORENSICS.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Kendra says IF YOU THINK OF A SHOW LIKED
"BONES" OR CSI," THE INVESTORS
ARE DOING A LOT OF THAT DETAILED
CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION,
THEY'RE ANALYSING PEOPLE,
THEY'RE ANALYSING PROPERTY AND A
SCENE.
BUT SOMETIMES YOU NEED THAT
ADDITIONAL LEVEL OF EXPERTISE.
SO THERE ARE VETERINARIANS WITH
THAT AUGMENTED FORENSIC SCIENCE
TRAINING AND KNOWLEDGE WHEN YOU
NEED TO GO DEEPER, WHEN YOU NEED
TO HAVE A HIGHLY SPECIALIZED
DIMENSION.
SO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT TO
BE ADDED AND TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
THERE ARE ONGOING EXEMPTIONS FOR
CERTAIN KINDS OF ACTIVITIES AND
PRACTICES, SO, FOR EXAMPLE,
FISHING AND HUNTING HAVE BEEN
EXEMPT.
GENERALLY ACCEPTED AGRICULTURAL
PRACTICES ARE EXEMPT.
AND THAT RAISES THE ISSUE OF
LEGAL VERSUS ILLEGAL CRUELTY,
AND WE ARE INCREASINGLY AS A
SOCIETY HAVING DISCUSSIONS ABOUT
WHAT HAS BEEN A GENERALLY
ACCEPTED PRACTICE.

Steve says CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT ONE?

Kendra says YEAH.

Steve says PEOPLE IN THE
CHICKEN BUSINESS SAY THEY'VE GOT
TO BURN THE BEAKS OF CHICKENS OR
THEY'RE GOING TO PECK EACH OTHER
TO DEATH AND THAT IS MORE
TORTUOUS AND HARMFUL THAN THEM
THAN OTHERWISE.

Kendra says IT'S COMMON PRACTICE TO BURN
THE BEAKS OFF OLD CHICKENS.
IT'S COMMON TO KILL DAY-OLD MALE
CHICKS BY LAUNCHING THEM INTO A
SPITTING BLADE CALLED A
MACERATOR WHICH GRINDS THEM UP
ALIVE.
THAT'S ARE GENERALLY ACCEPTED
PRACTICES.
WE WOULD NEVER DO THAT TO
PUPPIES.
WE WOULD NEVER DO THAT TO CATS.
WE WOULD NEVER KEEP DOGS IN
CRAMPED CONDITIONS THAT THEY
WOULD CAUSE HARM TO EACH OTHER
BUT THAT'S NORMAL IN THE EGG AND
POULTRY INDUSTRIES.
THESE ARE ETHICAL QUESTIONS.
AT THIS POINT THOSE THINGS ARE
CONSIDERED LEGALLY.
I THINK IN THE COMING YEARS WE
AS A SOCIETY ARE GOING TO BE
DELVING MORE DEEPLY INTO THESE
QUESTIONS.
THE MORE WE LEARN ABOUT ANIMAL
SENTIENCE.

Steve says I HAVE TO ASK YOU
ABOUT THAT.
YOU TELL ME: DOES THE
LEGISLATION ALLOW FOR THE
CLASSIFICATION OF ANIMALS AS
SENTIENT BEINGS AND THEREFORE
WORTHY OF, IF I CAN PUT IT THIS
WAY, MORE HUMAN-LIKE TREATMENT?

Kendra says SOME JURISDICTIONS AROUND THE
WORLD HAVE USED THAT TERM,
SENTIENT, RIGHT, WHICH MEANS
THIS CAPACITY TO THINK AND FEEL,
AWARENESS OF SELF.
THE EUROPEAN UNION HAS IT.
QUEBEC HAS IT, ET CETERA.

Steve says DO WE HAVE IT?

Kendra says WE DO NOT.
THE LEGISLATION WENT FURTHER IN
SAYING ANIMALS NEED TO HAVE
THEIR PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL
WELL-BEING RECOGNIZED.
SO WE'RE MOVING IN THAT
DIRECTION.
BUT A LOT OF ANIMAL LEGAL
SCHOLARS THINK THAT TERM
SENTIENCE IS IMPORTANT.
WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE YET.
THE RESEARCH IS MOVING IN THAT
DIRECTION.

Steve says WOULD YOU LIKE TO
HAVE SEEN THOSE WORDS IN OUR
LEGISLATION?

Kendra says THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD
ADDITION, ABSOLUTELY.
I LOOK FORWARD TO MORE
DISCUSSION.
I SEE IT ALL OVER SOCIETY.
PEOPLE ARE ASKING QUESTIONS IN
TERMS OF THEIR CONSUMPTION,
WHETHER THEY WANT TO CONSUME
ANIMALS AT ALL ARE EXPECTING
PARTICULAR WELFARE STANDARDS TO
BE UPHELD THAT ARE HIGHER THAN
THOSE THAT ARE NORMAL.
I THINK IN THE COMING YEARS IT'S
GOING TO BE A LEGAL QUESTION BUT
IT'S ALSO GOING TO BE A QUESTION
FOR US AS SOCIETY AND AS
CONSUMERS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says GREAT.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING IN AND
HELPING US OUT WITH THIS.
AS I SAY A FASCINATING TOPIC OF
WHICH THERE IS A TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF INTEREST OUT THERE.
THAT'S KENDRA COULTER, THE CHAIR
OF LABOUR STUDIES AT BROCK
UNIVERSITY AND A FELLOW AT THE
OXFORD CENTRE FOR ANIMAL ETHICS.
THANKS A LOT, KENDRA.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Kendra says THANK YOU.

Watch: Ontario's New Animal Protection Force