Transcript: Can bullying be curbed in Ontario schools? | Jan 10, 2020

Steve stands in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and striped lilac tie.
A wall screen behind him reads "The week in review."

Steve says THE AGENDA THIS WEEK
REFLECTED ON THE CAREER OF A
STREET NURSE; REVIEWED THE YEAR
THAT WAS IN GLOBAL AFFAIRS; AND
SAT DOWN WITH HISTORY PODCASTING
PIONEER DAN CARLIN FOR HIS TAKE
ON THE PAST.
THE AGENDA'S WEEK IN REVIEW
BEGINS LOOKING FOR A BETTER WAY
TO TACKLE BULLYING.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

In a clip, Steve sits with guests in the studio.
A caption on screen reads "A better way to battle bullying."

Steve says LET'S JUST PUT A FEW
STATISTICS UP HERE.
CONTROL ROOM, MR. DIRECTOR, IF
YOU WOULD?
LET'S BRING THESE UP.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Bullying in schools."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
58 percent OF STUDENTS... THIS
ACCORDING TO THE ONTARIO COLLEGE
OF TEACHERS... 58 percent OF STUDENTS
ARE VICTIMS OF BULLYING.
30 percent BULLY OTHERS.
AND 78 percent HAVE WITNESSED BULLYING
BUT FEWER THAN HALF HAVE
INTERVENED.
WITH ALL OF THAT OVERARCHING OUR
DISCUSSION HERE, LET'S GET
STARTED.
CLAIRE, HOW WOULD YOU
CHARACTERIZE THE BULLYING
PROBLEM IN ONTARIO SCHOOLS
TODAY?

The caption changes to "Claire Crooks. Western University."
Then, it changes again to "A pervasive problem."

Claire is in her fifties, with shoulder-length straight brown hair. She's wearing a black sweater and a gray scarf.

She says YEAH, SO BULLYING IS A
PERVASIVE BEHAVIOUR THAT OCCURS
ANYWHERE CHILDREN COME TOGETHER
TO PLAY, TO LEARN.
SO IT'S IN SCHOOLS, PLAYGROUNDS.
ANY SWIM TEAM OR SOCCER TEAM OR
ANYWHERE KIDS COME TOGETHER.

Steve says ANNALISA, WHAT WOULD
YOU ADD TO THAT?

The caption changes to "Annalisa Varano. Catholic Principals' Council, Ontario."

Annalisa is in her early forties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing a black sweater and a gray scarf.

She says I WOULD SAY IT IS A VERY
COMPLEX SOCIETAL ISSUE.
ON TOP OF THAT, IT HAPPENS
EVERYWHERE.
IT CAN'T JUST BE OWNED IN ONE
AREA.
AND WITH THAT IT'S GOING TO BE
VERY COMPLEX SOLUTIONS THAT NEED
TO BE... YOU KNOW, HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION IS REALLY IMPORTANT
AS WE COME TOGETHER TO DISCUSS
WAYS ON HOW WE CAN COLLECTIVELY
HELP TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

Steve says CLEARLY A VERY HARD
PROBLEM TO SOLVE.

Annalisa says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says CLEARLY.
OKAY.
GERALD, WHAT WOULD YOU ADD TO
THAT?

The caption changes to "Gerald Walton. Lakehead University."

Gerald is in his fifties, bald, with a trimmed goatee. He's wearing a pale blue shirt.

He says I WOULD ADD TO THAT THAT IT'S
A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM THAT TARGETS
PEOPLE WHO ARE MARGINALIZED OR
WHO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS
DIFFERENT, AND THAT IT'S AN
ABUSE OF POWER IN THOSE
RESPECTS.

Steve says KATIE COLE?

Katie is in her thirties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a red shirt.

The caption changes to "Katie Cole. Thames Valley District School Board."

She says WELL, I'M THINKING THAT, FROM
A TEACHER'S PERSPECTIVE, WE WANT
ALL OF OUR CLASSROOMS AND OUR
SCHOOL TO BE SAFE AND WE WANT
OUR CHILDREN TO BE PROTECTED,
AND I THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO
TAKE A REALLY BIG EFFORT ON
EVERYONE'S PART, AND TEACHERS'
PARTS, TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY
ARE SAFE.

Steve says JULIE, I'VE LEFT YOU
FOR THE END BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU
HAVE COME TO THIS ISSUE FOR AN
ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC REASON.

Julie says YES.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO TELL
US WHAT MOTIVATED YOU TO GET
INVOLVED?

Julie is in her thirties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing glasses and a brown sweater.

The caption changes to "Julie Schaafsma. Parent."

She says I'M MOTIVATED TO START THIS
GROUP BECAUSE I WAS NOTICING A
LOT OF PARENTS THAT WERE VERY
LONELY, VERY FULL OF ANGER, AND
THERE WASN'T ANYWHERE TO DIRECT
THE LONELINESS AND THE ANGER.
THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE ON
THEIR OWN THAT FELT VERY LET
DOWN BY THE SYSTEM, NOT JUST A
ONE-TIME OR TWO TIMES OR A THIRD
TIME, FOR YEARS, THAT THEY WERE
STRUGGLING TO HELP THEIR
CHILDREN AND BE HEARD BY
WHATEVER SCHOOL BOARD THEY WERE
IN, WHATEVER COMMUNITY THEY WERE
IN.
I WAS NOTICING A LOT OF PEOPLE
THAT WERE EXPRESSING HOW IT
NEEDS TO STOP AND THAT SOMETHING
NEEDS TO CHANGE, AND THAT IT
JUST WASN'T WORKING.
BUT YET THERE WAS NOTHING BEING
DONE ABOUT THAT, THAT I COULD
FIND AT THE TIME.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO
REMIND US ABOUT THE STORY OF
DEVAN IN HAMILTON AND HOW THAT
PROMPTED YOU TO TAKE SOME
ACTION?

The caption changes to "Julie Schaafsma. Voices Against Bullying."

Julie says I DON'T FEEL LIKE I HAVE THE
RIGHT TO REALLY SPEAK ON BEHALF
OF THAT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HIS
MOTHER.
WHEN I DID HEAR ABOUT THE EVENT
THAT HAD HAPPENED, I ACTUALLY
UNDERSTOOD IT THAT IT HAD
HAPPENED IN THE STATES.
AND MY THOUGHT PROCESS WAS: WOW,
HOW SAD.
WHAT'S GOING ON DOWN THERE?
THEY'RE OUT OF CONTROL.
LIKE, SOMETHING'S MISSING, AND
THINGS LIKE THAT.
AND THEN LATER ON THAT DAY, WHEN
MORE INFORMATION CAME OUT AND
MORE DETAILS WERE RELEASED, I
REALIZED THAT IT WAS NOT ONLY
WITHIN MY OWN DISTRICT, BUT IT
WAS 20 MINUTES FROM MY OWN HOME.

Steve says A 14-YEAR-OLD BOY
STABBED TO DEATH OUTSIDE A
SCHOOL.

Julie says IN FRONT OF HIS MOTHER.

Steve says IN FRONT OF HIS MOTHER.

Julie says WHO WAS THERE TO PICK HIM UP
BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID TO BE AT
SCHOOL.
SO AFTER THAT HAPPENED, READING
ALL OF THE COMMENTS AND THE
SOCIAL MEDIA THING THAT WERE ALL
GOING ON, EVERYONE WAS... WAS
JUST DONE WITH THAT, THAT IT
COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, BUT
YET THERE WAS NOWHERE TO REALLY
HARNESS ALL OF THESE VOICES WHO
POSITIVELY MAKE AN IMPACT IN
HELPING BRING THESE CHANGES
BACK.

Steve says CLAIRE, I SUSPECT
BULLYING IS ONE OF THESE THINGS
WHERE YOU KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE
IT, BUT MAYBE WE NEED A
CLINICAL-PROFESSIONAL DEFINITION
OF WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS.

Claire says SURE.

Steve says WOULD YOU PROVIDE
THAT?

The caption changes to "Definitions and motivations."

Claire says SURE.
SO TYPICALLY WE DEFINE BULLYING
WITH THREE ASPECTS: WHEN IT'S
INTENTIONAL AND THERE'S A POWER
IMBALANCE AND IT'S REPEATED.
SO EVERYBODY WHO WORKS WITH
CHILDREN AND CHILDREN THEMSELVES
NEED TO LEARN THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN JUST KIND OF HAVING A
CONFLICT OR DISAGREEMENT WITH A
FRIEND AND BULLYING, AND THEN OF
COURSE WITH THE RISE OF MEDIA...
SOCIAL MEDIA, IT'S TAKEN ON NEW
FORMS BUT IT STILL HAS THOSE
SAME THREE ASPECTS.

Steve says DO I INFER THAT IT'S
ALMOST ALWAYS MANY ON ONE?

The caption changes to "Claire Crooks, @FourthRnews."

Claire says NO... THAT'S ONE WAY TO HAVE
POWER.
BUT THE POWER CAN BE IN TERMS
OF... IT COULD BE SIZE, YOU
KNOW, THAT'S SORT OF THE CHARLIE
BROWN VERSION OF THE BIG BULLY.
BUT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER WAYS
FOR KIDS TO HAVE POWER OVER
OTHERS.
GERALD MADE A REALLY IMPORTANT
POINT THAT OFTEN IT'S AROUND
IDENTITIES AND HOW SOCIETY
POSITIONS DIFFERENT IDENTITIES
AND THAT CHILDREN WHO ARE PART
OF MORE MARGINALIZED GROUPS,
THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE
TARGETED AND THE IMPACTS ARE
GOING TO BE WORSE.

Steve says GERALD, THE
INFERENCE MANY PEOPLE PROBABLY
DRAW, AT LEAST YOU HEAR THIS
ANECDOTALLY, OF COURSE THAT KID
IS A BULLY, HE COMES FROM A BAD
HOME, HIS PARENTS ARE, YOU KNOW,
AWFUL PEOPLE, SO OF COURSE HE'S
A BULLY.
HOW TRUE IS THAT?

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Gerald says I'M SURE IT'S TRUE IN SOME
FAMILIES.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL OR
NOTHING HERE.
BUT WHAT I DO THINK THAT FOR
PEOPLE WHO ARE BULLYING
ROUTINELY AND THEY'VE GOT THE
GROUPS THAT THEY TARGET AND
THEY'VE GOT THE GROUPS THAT
SUPPORT THEM, I THINK WHAT'S
SORT OF MISSING, FOR ME ANYWAY,
IS A DISCUSSION AROUND THE
ELEMENT OF POWER AND HOW POWER
IS A FUNCTION OF PLEASURE,
RIGHT?
SO THERE'S RESEARCH THAT'S
LOOKED INTO BRAIN CHEMISTRY OF
KIDS WHO BULLY AND HOW THE
PLEASURE CENTRES ARE BEING
STIMULATED WHEN ACTS OF BULLYING
ARE GOING ON, AND THOSE SORTS OF
THINGS.
THERE'S AN ADRENALINE RUSH WHEN
THESE THINGS HAPPEN.
SO I THINK THAT THOSE SORTS OF
THINGS NEED TO BE FACTORED INTO
WHAT MOTIVATES PEOPLE WHO...
WHAT MOTIVATES BULLYING
BEHAVIOURS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Steve says WHY WOULD YOU GET AN
ADRENALINE RUSH AND THEREFORE
PLEASURE AND-OR HAPPINESS FROM
CAUSING OTHER PEOPLE MISERY?

Gerald says BECAUSE YOU... BECAUSE
PLEASURE... BECAUSE PAIN... NO,
SORRY, I BACK THAT UP.
PLEASURE IS SOMETHING
PLEASURABLE AND POWER IS
PLEASURE.
AND THE RESEARCH IS
DEMONSTRATING MORE AND MORE THAT
THERE ARE EFFECTS IN THE
CHEMISTRY OF THE BRAIN, LIKE I
SAID BEFORE, THAT LEAD TO THE
PLEASURE CENTRES, AND THERE IS
PLEASURE THAT COMES FROM KNOWING
THAT YOU HAVE AN AUDIENCE, I.E.
BYSTANDERS, YOU HAVE AN
AUDIENCE, AND YOU ARE GAINING
SOCIAL STATUS BY ENGAGING IN THE
BEHAVIOUR THAT YOU'RE ENGAGING
IN IN A BROADER SOCIAL CONTEXT.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with different guests.
A caption on screen reads "Memoirs of a street nurse. A different kind of nursing."

Steve says YOUR BOOK, FIRST OF
ALL, IS FASCINATING READING AND
IT'S HARROWING READING FROM TIME
TO TIME, AND I DO WANT TO READ
ONE EXCERPT HERE ABOUT SOME OF
YOUR DEALINGS WITH THE... WITH
THE EXPERIENCE OF HOMELESSNESS
IN THIS PROVINCE.
SO, SHELDON, LET'S BRING THIS
GRAPHIC UP, AND HERE WE GO.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "On the frontlines." The quote reads "My nurse hands once did more useful things. They immunized the fat, healthy thighs of infants, they carefully measured cardiac drugs to administer to young heart patients, they bathed both the elderly lady after her surgery and the 24-year-old Italian Canadian woman after her death.
Now they carry a black bag into streets, alleyways, and ravines. The bandages I carry no longer cover the wounds of my patients. My vitamins will not prevent the white plague of tuberculosis from taking another victim. I cannot even help someone achieve one peaceful night of safety and sleep. Only roofs will do that. And I am not a carpenter."
Quoted from Cathy Crowe, "A knapsack full of dreams." 2019.

Steve says CATHY, THERE IS A
LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION THAT
EMERGES FROM THAT QUOTE THAT NO
DOUBT YOU HAVE EARNED THANKS TO
DECADES OF TRYING TO MAKE
PROGRESS ON THIS ISSUE.
DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE?

The caption changes to "Cathy Crowe. Author, 'A knapsack full of dreams."

Cathy is in her fifties, with short blond hair and bangs. She's wearing a gray jacket and a colourful bead necklace.

She says NOT RIGHT NOW, ACTUALLY, NO.
I MEAN, WE'VE HAD MANY SUCCESSES
AND VICTORIES, YOU KNOW, A NEW
FEDERAL HOMELESSNESS PROGRAM,
LOTS OF SHELTER OPENINGS.
BUT EVERYTHING'S WORSE SINCE
WHEN I BEGAN...

Steve says EVERYTHING IS WORSE
SINCE YOU BEGAN?

Cathy says PRETTY MUCH.
I MEAN, THERE'S A FEW INNOVATIVE
NEW PROGRAMS AROUND TUBERCULOSIS
AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT THERE
ARE TRIPLE THE NUMBER OF
HOMELESS PEOPLE THAN WHEN I
STARTED.
IT'S A CRISIS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY.
THERE ARE NOW ENCAMPMENTS.
IT'S NOW NORMAL TO SEE TENTS ON
TORONTO MAIN STREETS, IN
PETERBOROUGH, KINGSTON.
SO IT'S A DARK TIME.

Steve says HOW DO YOU
PERSONALLY DEAL WITH... BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, I'VE KNOWN YOU FOR A
LONG TIME.
I REMEMBER WHEN YOU RAN FOR
OFFICE A COUPLE OF TIMES.
YOU SEEM A FAIRLY UPBEAT PERSON
CONSIDERING ALL OF WHAT YOU HAVE
TO DEAL WITH.
HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

Cathy says I MOSTLY... I MOSTLY AM.
I'M MOSTLY OPTIMISTIC.
I RELY ON REALLY CLOSE
COLLEAGUES WHO BECAME BEST
FRIENDS, WHO HELPED ME KIND OF
STRATEGIZE TO FIGURE OUT, OKAY,
EVERYTHING IS HORRIBLE RIGHT
NOW.
WHAT CAN WE STILL DO?
WHAT'S OUR NEXT CREATIVE
STRATEGY?
AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
PERSONAL THINGS.
I'VE GOT GRANDCHILDREN AND, YOU
KNOW, AS YOU KNOW, I LOVE
BASEBALL AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT IT IS... IT IS AN
OVERWHELMING TIME RIGHT NOW.
THIS WINTER IN PARTICULAR.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Steve says CAN YOU TAKE US
BACK?
YOUR FIRST NURSING JOB; WHAT WAS
IT?

The caption changes to "Cathy Crowe, @cathyacrowe."

Cathy says OH, SURE.
I WAS IN CARDIOLOGY AT TORONTO
GENERAL HOSPITAL, NOW CALLED
UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK, AND I
LOVED IT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says WHAT DID YOU LIKE
ABOUT IT?

Cathy says IT WAS EXCITING.
IT WAS CUTTING EDGE.
THERE WAS A LOT OF
EXPERIMENTATION.

Steve says THERE WAS A LOT OF
CUTTING TOO.

Cathy says YES.
YES.
WE WERE SEEING NEW TRENDS AND
ISSUES IN CARDIAC DISEASE THAT
WERE NOW BEING TREATED THANKS
TO, YOU KNOW, PENICILLIN, FOR
EXAMPLE.
SO IT WAS VERY EXCITING.

Steve says HOW AND WHEN DID YOU
MAKE THE TRANSITION TO BECOMING
A STREET NURSE?

Cathy says I ENDED UP GOING FROM THE
HOSPITAL TO BAY STREET, WHICH
WAS STRANGE.
THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE CARDIAC
CONNECTION WITH CARDIAC STRESS
TESTING OF EXECUTIVES, AND THEN
I WENT TO... AND THEN THE
DOCTORS THERE WERE EXTRA BILLING
AT THE TIME, AND THEY WANTED ME
TO ALSO EXTRA BILL ABOVE OHIP.

Steve says RIGHT.

Cathy says SO THAT WAS BEFORE EXTRA
BILLING WAS ALLOWED.
SO PHYSICIANS COULD CHARGE ABOVE
AND BEYOND OHIP, A LOT OF MONEY
FOR SOME TYPES OF HEALTH CARE,
AND I DIDN'T WANT TO DO THAT AND
I FELT THIS WASN'T THE NORM,
THIS WASN'T WHAT I EXPECTED
HEALTH CARE TO BE ABOUT, SO I
SAW AN AD IN THE NEWSPAPER FOR
SOUTH RIVERDALE COMMUNITY HEALTH
CENTRE.
I APPLIED.
I WALKED AROUND THE
NEIGHBORHOOD, GOT THE JOB, I
THINK BECAUSE I WALKED AROUND
THE NEIGHBORHOOD, AND I'VE BEEN
IN THAT SECTOR FOR A LONG, LONG
TIME.
AND THEN I MOVED TO STREET
HEALTH, A LITTLE ORGANIZATION
THAT HAD JUST GOTTEN FUNDING
FROM MINISTER ELEANOR KAPLAN,
WHO WAS MINISTER OF HEALTH, AND
I WAS THE SECOND NURSE HIRED.
BUT I WENT THERE MORE BECAUSE OF
THE NURSING MODEL AS OPPOSED TO
THINKING I WANTED TO LOOK AFTER
HOMELESS PEOPLE.
I HAD KIND OF ALL THE
STEREOTYPES THAT PEOPLE MIGHT
STILL HAVE.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says DID YOU HAVE WHAT
YOU MIGHT DESCRIBE AS A KIND OF
A BIT OF A NAIVE BACKGROUND AS
IT RELATED TO ALL OF THE MISERY
YOU WOULD SOON COME TO SEE?

Cathy says ABSOLUTELY.
I GREW UP IN COBOURG AND
KINGSTON.
IN MY WHOLE LIFE, I HAVE NEVER
REALLY CONSIDERED THE ISSUES
AROUND HOMELESSNESS.
I WAS CONSTANTLY SHOCKED.
I TELL ONE STORY ABOUT...
WONDERING WHY SO MANY PEOPLE HAD
MARITIME ACCENTS AT SHERBOURNE
AND DUNDAS, HAVING NO CLUE THAT
IT WAS BECAUSE OF POVERTY IN THE
MARITIMES AND SEEING A MAN
THAT... I FORGET THE EXACT NAME,
BUT HE MIGHT HAVE HAD A SHIRT
THAT HAD THE NAME JIM ON IT BUT
HIS NAME WAS REALLY BILL OR
SOMETHING AND NOT REALIZING,
WELL, HE GOT THAT SHIRT IN THE
CLOTHING DONATION ROOM.
I WAS VERY, VERY NAIVE.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with different guests.
A caption on screen reads "2020: A divided world. The Chinese dragon spreads its wings."

Steve says CLEARLY THEY WANT TO
HAVE INFLUENCE ON THE WORLD
STAGE.
DO YOU SEE THE CHINESE AS A
MILITARY THREAT?

The caption changes to "Ann Fitz-Gerald. Balsillie School of International Affairs."

Ann is in her forties, with long straight blond hair. She's wearing a black blazer and a thin silver pendant necklace.

She says I DON'T SEE THEIR LEADING
GLOBAL PRIORITY AS MILITARY
EXPANSIONISM.
I THINK THEY WANT TO EXERT A
LEADING MILITARY PRESENCE IN THE
REGION, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW,
THEY WANT TO BE THE MOST
INFLUENTIAL COUNTRY IN THE
WORLD, BUT THROUGH A VERY
COMMUNIST-DRIVEN ECONOMIC MODEL,
AND ONE WHICH SEES THEM ALL
OVER... AND I SEE THIS IN EAST
AND WEST AFRICA, ESPECIALLY
WHERE THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT
COMES IN, THEY OFFER TO BUILD
ROAD, RAIL, ET CETERA,
INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE THE BELT AND
ROAD INITIATIVE, THAT THESE
COUNTRIES HAVE NEVER ABSORBED
BEFORE BUT DESPERATELY NEED,
CAN'T AFFORD ANY FRACTION OF IT,
AND CHINA VERY CANNILY SAYS, YOU
DON'T HAVE TO PAY US, WE WILL BE
HERE THE NEXT HUNDRED YEARS, WE
WILL OWN THE TOLL BOOTHS ON THE
ROADS, COLLECT THE TARIFFS OVER
THE YEARS AND THE FEES AND
THAT'S HOW YOU'LL PAY US BACK.
THAT BUYS THEM CONTROL.
THAT BUYS THEM AUTHORITY,
POLITICAL VOICE, AND OF COURSE
THINGS LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE, LIKE
AIRPORTS AND SEAPORTS ARE ALL
INSTRUMENTAL, NOT JUST FOR
INTERNATIONAL TRADE BUT ALSO
MILITARY MOBILIZATION.
SO SLOWLY THIS ECONOMIC SECURITY
INFLUENCE IS BEING DUBBED WITH
MILITARY EXPANSIONISM.

Steve says BUT YOU DON'T INFER
THAT THAT'S NECESSARILY EQUAL TO
A MILITARY THREAT?

Ann says ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Steve says OKAY.
LET ME READ FROM EMMANUEL
MACRON, THE PRESIDENT OF FRANCE,
AND I'LL GET YOU TO COMMENT ON
THIS.
HERE IS THE FRENCH PRESIDENT IN
A YEAR-END INTERVIEW WITH "THE
ECONOMIST" MAGAZINE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "A battle of ideals." The quote reads "The great difficulty is that we are witnessing a sort of backlash, the return of other competing values. Non-democratic models, which are challenging European humanism like never before. I've often said that our model was built in the 18th century with the European Enlightenment, the market economy, individual freedom, democratic rule and the progress of the middle classes. The Chinese model is a model that brings together a market economy and an expanding middle class, but without freedom. Some people say it works, so there's some kind of living proof. I don't know whether it's sustainable.
[People] say: 'Well, I'm willing to five up certain freedoms to move towards a more authoritarian regime if it protects me more, and allows for growth and greater wealth.' This crisis is right here among us."
Emmanuel Macron, as quoted in The Economist. November 7, 2019.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Steve says OKAY, MATTHEW.
HOW MUCH TRACTION DOES THIS
AUTHORITARIAN MODEL OF
GOVERNANCE OR, I GUESS, TRENDING
OTHER PLACES IN EASTERN EUROPE,
ILLIBERAL DEMOCRACY, HOW MUCH
DOES IT HAVE RIGHT NOW?

The caption changes to "Matthew Fisher. Canadian Global Affairs Institute."

Matthew is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with receding gray hair. He's wearing a black suit, pale pink shirt and spotted red tie.

He says I THINK MACRON IS VERY
SENSIBLE IN IDENTIFYING THESE AS
A PROBLEM, THAT CHINA AND RUSSIA
ARE BOTH SORT OF POSTER BOYS
FOR, YOU CAN DO WELL AND YOUR
PEOPLE WILL BUY IT.
AND I THINK IN RUSSIA AND IN
CHINA, THE PEOPLE HAVE BOUGHT
IT.
AND SO FAR IN EASTERN EUROPE,
THEY HAVE... I MEAN, WE SEE THIS
A BIT IN POLAND, WE CERTAINLY
SEE IT IN HUNGARY AND SLOVAKIA.
BUT WHEN YOU GO TO AFRICA, WHEN
I SPEAK TO AFRICANS, AND I
TRAVELLED TO AFRICA A LOT IN THE
LAST YEAR, THE CHINESE ARE
EVERYWHERE AND WITH FANTASTIC
INVESTMENTS.
SOME OF THEM KIND OF SILLY, LIKE
80,000-SEAT SPORTS STADIUMS, BUT
SOME OF THEM WITH GREAT
FUNCTIONAL BENEFITS TO THE
COUNTRIES THEY'RE IN.
BUT THE PUBLIC DOESN'T... THEY
DON'T SEE THAT BECAUSE... ALL
THE JOBS ARE FOR CHINESE
WORKERS.
THE CHINESE WORKERS ARE
BASICALLY FENCED OFF FROM THE
POPULATION.
AND THERE'S GROWING RESENTMENT.
THERE'S BACKLASH.
WE'RE NOT AT THAT POINT IN
EUROPE.
BUT POPULISM IN EUROPE... MAYBE
THE INFLUENCE IS GREATER WITH
PUTIN THAN IT IS WITH THE
CHINESE... BUT THEY SEE TOUGH
GUYS AND SOME OF THEIR LEADERS
LIKE TO THINK THEY'RE GOING TO
BE TOUGH GUYS TOO.
AND RIGHT NOW I WOULDN'T SAY
THEY'RE WINNING, BUT
INCREMENTALLY, THEY'RE MAKING
PROGRESS, EVEN IN COUNTRIES SUCH
AS SWEDEN AND DENMARK.

Steve says LET ME ASK ANN ABOUT
THAT.
HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT
AUTHORITARIANISM OR ILLIBERAL
DEMOCRACY ARE GAINING TRACTION
IN THE WORLD.

The caption changes to "Ann Fitz-Gerald. Wilfried Laurier University."

Ann says IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TENSION
BETWEEN THESE TWO MODELS, RIGHT?
THERE ARE TWO VERY IMPORTANT
ISSUES HERE: FIRST OF ALL, THE
CHARACTERISTICS SURROUNDING THAT
CHINESE AND ASIAN TIGER MODEL
ARE, ONE, STRONG LEADERSHIP;
TWO, THE AVAILABILITY OF A
LIVEABLE INCOME AND
INTERNATIONAL FINANCING; AND,
THREE, A GOOD NATIONAL STRATEGY.
SO IN A LOT OF DIVIDED SOCIETIES
IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD, YOU
DON'T HAVE THESE THINGS.
AND ALSO THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS,
A RELATIVELY HOMOGENEOUS
SOCIETY, WHICH THIS ECONOMIC
MODEL TAKES ROOT IN.
WITH THESE VERY DIVERSE
SOCIETIES, PEOPLE WANT THE
DEMOCRATIC ASSURANCE AND THE
GUARANTEE.
SO SOME COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN
TURNING TO CHINA AND ASIAN, YOU
KNOW, EASTERN MODELS TO, YOU
KNOW, WHO HAVE EXPIRED WITH
THESE WESTERN LIBERAL PIECE
PARADIGM MODELS ARE NOW LOOKING
FOR ANSWERS TO SOME SORT OF
AMALGAM MODEL THAT BRIDGES THE
GOOD THINGS OF BOTH TOGETHER AND
WE'RE A BIT STUCK.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says LET'S SPEND A MOMENT
JUST LOOKING AT THE
NOT-SO-UNITED KINGDOM RIGHT NOW.
BORIS JOHNSON DID WIN A TERRIFIC
ELECTION VICTORY FOR HIS
CONSERVATIVE PARTY, BREXIT IS
GOING TO HAPPEN NOW.
IF YOU LOOKED INTO YOUR CRYSTAL
BALL 25 YEARS FROM NOW, ANN,
WHAT DO YOU SEE THE EUROPEAN
UNION LOOKING LIKE GIVEN THE
RELATIONSHIP THAT THE U.K. NOW
WANTS TO HAVE WITH IT?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."
Then, it changes again to "The E.U.'s shrinking pains."

Ann says HMM.
CRYSTAL BALL GAZING.
DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT THE
FUTURE.
WELL, I THINK THE EUROPEAN UNION
WILL HAVE TO SORT OF REDEFINE
ITSELF, AND IT CAN'T DEFINE
ITSELF AS A POWER AND COMPETE AS
A POWER, BUT IT CAN DO THINGS
OVER THE NEXT 25 YEARS TO SORT
OF MAKE THE UNION A LITTLE BIT
MORE COHESIVE.
BUT THERE'S A LOT OF WORK STILL
TO DO.
AND INTRODUCE SOME FINANCIAL
DISCIPLINES AND FISCAL POLICIES
TO AVOID THE SORT OF BANKING
CRISIS, THE FINANCIAL CRISES
THAT ALMOST BROUGHT ITALY AND
GREECE DOWN.
I THINK THERE'S STILL A LOT OF
CONFUSION THAT REIGNS OVER WHAT
POST-BREXIT LOOKS LIKE.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with a male guest.
A caption on screen reads "The podcaster of past times. Regular history."
Then, it changes to "End times."

Steve says YOU ARE FOCUSING ON
APOCALYPTIC EVENTS AND YOU DO
ASK MANY, MANY THOUGHT-POKING
QUESTIONS.
FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S JUST START
WITH THIS: DO TOUGH TIMES MAKE
FOR TOUGHER PEOPLE?
WHAT HAVE YOU CONCLUDED ON THAT.

The caption changes to "Dan Carlin. Author, 'The end is always near.'"

Dan in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a cap and a gray shirt.

He says I HAVEN'T CONCLUDED ANYTHING.
I'M FASCINATED BY THE TOPIC.
100 YEARS AGO AN HISTORIAN WOULD
HAVE FELT PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE
ANSWERING THAT QUESTION.
THESE DAYS WE DO BETTER AS A
SOCIETY THAN WE'VE DONE BEFORE.
IT'S RIGOROUS.
IT'S PEER REVIEWED.
THERE'S RADIO CARBON DATING, ALL
THOSE THINGS.
DO TOUGH TIMES MAKE TOUGH PEOPLE
IS SOMETHING YOU AND I CAN HAVE
A LONG CONVERSATION ABOUT.
WE CAN TALK ABOUT TOUGH PEOPLE
WE KNEW.
WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN ON A SOCIETAL
LEVEL.
TRY WRITING A PEER REVIEWED
PAPER WITH DATA THAT YOU CAN
QUANTIFY THAT.
NOW, WHAT I ALWAYS SAY TO PEOPLE
IS: IS IT IMPORTANT?
CAN YOU EVEN DEFINE IT?
THAT'S WHAT IT BECOMES AN
INTERESTING TOPIC TO TALK ABOUT,
WHAT IS TOUGHNESS?
DO WE HAVE A WAY TO MEASURE IT?
IF WE SAID THE ANCIENT SPARTANS
ARE TOUGH.
WOULD THEY BE TOUGH TO US?
ARE THEY TOUGH TO OTHER GREEKS.
IT BECOMES THIS WONDERFUL
QUESTION ABOUT, DOES IT EVEN
MATTER IN SOCIETY?
THOSE ARE A LOT OF THE
QUESTIONS, THINGS HISTORIANS
WOULDN'T TOUCH BECAUSE HOW WOULD
YOU PROVE IT?
NONE OF THIS IS PROOF.
IT'S A QUESTION THAT MIGHT SET
YOU OFF ON A PATH.

Steve says IT MAKES FOR GREAT
DEBATE.
YOU HEARD ABOUT TOM BROKAW'S
GENERATION.
THEY REPRESENT TOUGH FOR THE
PEOPLE OF OUR GENERATION AND
AWARENESS.
WOULD THEY HAVE BEEN TOUGHER
THAN THE ROMANS OR SPARTANS?

Dan says I THINK THEIR PARENTS
PROBABLY THOUGHT THAT HE WERE
SOFT.
ISN'T THAT THE NORMAL THING?
EVERY GENERATION IS SOFTER THAN
THE NEXT.
THE FIRST WORLD WAR GENERATION
PROBABLY THOUGHT THEIR KIDS WERE
TOUGH.

Steve says ANDREW MELLON, HE
THOUGHT THE DEPRESSION WOULD
MAKE AMERICANS TOUGHER AND MORE
INDUSTRIOUS.
IT WOULD SEPARATE THE WHEAT FROM
THE CHAFF.
WAS HE RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Dan Carlin. Host, Hardcore History Podcast."

Dan says I DON'T KNOW.
IF YOU LOOK AT STALINGRAD.
EVERYBODY LOOKS AT THE BATTLE OF
STALINGRAD.
THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THERE WERE
CHILDREN WHO WERE ORPHANS
RUNNING AROUND THE RUINS, IT WAS
LIKE A "LORD OF THE FLIES."
THING.
I THOUGHT ARE THESE CHILDREN
GOING TO BE TOUGHER THAN THE
CHILDREN WHO GROW UP TODAY IN
BEVERLY HILLS OR SOMETHING?
IF YOU SAY YES.
YOU SAY DO THEY NEED TO BE?
MAYBE YOU NEED A DIFFERENT SKILL
SET TO GROW UP IN BEVERLY HILLS
TODAY THAN IN STALINGRAD DURING
THE WAR.
I WOULD SUGGEST IT MAKES THEM
TOUGHER.
IT DEPEND HOW YOU DEFINE
TOUGHNESS.
A LOT OF THE WAYS WE DEFINE
TOUGHNESS ARE THINGS THAT ARE
THINGS LIKE WAR-LIKE.
IS WAR-LIKE AND TOUGHNESS THE
SAME THING?
WE KIND OF GO INTO SOME OF THOSE
QUESTIONS TOO.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Steve says I APPRECIATE THE
FACT THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO COME
TO HARD AND FAST CONCLUSIONS
BECAUSE YOU WANT THE PEOPLE WHO
LISTEN OR READ TO COME TO THEIR
OWN CONCLUSIONS.
DID YOU AT LEAST COME TO THE
CONCLUSION THAT ANDREW MELLON
WAS A BIT OF A JERK FOR SAYING
WHAT HE SAID AT THE TIME?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Dan says IT'S EASY TO SAY THAT WHEN
HE'S IN HIS POSITION.
IT'S VERY FLIP TO SAY THAT IF
MORE PEOPLE ARE HURTING, SOCIETY
WILL GIVE... IT'S A VERY
CAPITALISTIC SORT OF WAY TO LOOK
AT IT THOUGH THAN SUGGESTING
THAT THINGS SORT OF, WHEN YOU
HAVE COMPETITION OR WHEN THINGS
GET TOUGHER, THE CREAM RISES TO
THE TOP OR WHATEVER, IT'S A
PRETTY HARDCORE ATTITUDE TO HAVE
TO THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T RISE TO
THE TOP IN THAT SITUATION.

Steve says NO KIDDING.
YOU LOOK AT THE COLLAPSE OF TWO
AGES, THE BRONZE AGE AND THE
ROMAN EMPIRE.
DO YOU WANT TO GIVE US A HILL
HISTORY 101... A LITTLE HISTORY
101 ON THIS?

Dan says THE BRONZE AGE IS A SYSTEM.
IT'S GENERALLY CALLED THE
MEDITERRANEAN BRONZE AGE.
YOU HAVE THIS ERA WHERE YOU HAVE
A SURPRISINGLY COMPLEX SYSTEM
AND A SURPRISINGLY
INTERCONNECTED SYSTEM.
WHAT'S SO INTERESTING ABOUT IT
IS NO ONE KNOWS WHY THE BRONZE
AGE COLLAPSED BUT THERE ARE LOTS
OF THEORIES.
SO MANY OF THE THEORIES ARE
THINGS THAT LOOK A LITTLE BIT
FAMILIAR TO US.
ONE OF THEM IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL
SORT OF COLLAPSE.
ANOTHER IS A COMPLEXITY SORT OF
COLLAPSE.
IF YOU LOOK TO OUR SOCIETY NOW
AND SAID, GEE, IT LOOKS SO
STABLE, BUT IT'S VERY COMPLEX.
I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO MY
DAUGHTER THE OTHER DAY HOW MUCH
THE WORLD HAS CHANGED IN HER
SHORT LIFETIME WITH THE TEXTING
AND SOCIAL MEDIA AND EVERYTHING.
IF YOU FOUND OUT THAT SOMEHOW
THAT WAS THE GERM THAT SOMEHOW
MESSED US UP DOWN THE ROAD, IT
WOULD ACTUALLY BE SORT OF A
MODERN EQUIVALENT OF MAYBE A
SYSTEMS COLLAPSE.
AND THE BRONZE AGE WAS MAYBE A
SYSTEMS COLLAPSE OR ANY NUMBER
OF OTHER THINGS.
THE ROMAN EMPIRE, I READ MORE
THAN A HUNDRED DIFFERENT
THEORIES.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT RIGHT ANSWERS
OR WHATEVER, THE VERY
KNOWLEDGEABLE AND AUGUST PEOPLE
DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWERS ON
SOME OF THIS STUFF.
BUT THE QUESTIONS THEMSELVES ARE
BOTH PERENNIAL AND FASCINATING.
YOU TALKED ABOUT SOMEONE IN THE
CLASSICS BEFORE, THE OWNER OF A
BALL TEAM.
CLASSICS, WHEN YOU READ IT, THE
ONLY REASON IT'S STILL VALUABLE
IS YOU GO, WOW, THIS IS
THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO AND YET
THIS IS MAYBE APPLICABLE, THIS
STUFF MAKES SENSE TO ME NOW AND
SEEMS TO BE RELEVANT TO OUR OWN
TIMES.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says THE SPEED OF THE
COLLAPSE OF BOTH OF THOSE
EMPIRES MIGHT BE DIFFERENT; FAIR
TO SAY?

Dan says YES, ABSOLUTELY.
THE BRONZE AGE IS ONE OF THOSE
THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE
NOTICED AT THE TIME, YOU MIGHT
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SAY TO YOUR
CHILD, WHEN I WAS A KID, THINGS
WERE MUCH BETTER, EVERYTHING WAS
GOING GOOD.
WHEREAS THE ROMAN SYSTEM... IF
WE WERE IN A COLLAPSE NOW, THAT
MIGHT BE MORE LIKE THE ROMAN
SYSTEM WHERE WE COULD HAVE TALKS
ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE IN
A COLLAPSE.
THE ROMANS WOULD HAVE THINGS
LIKE ROME WAS SACKED AND THEY'D
COME BACK, THEY'D CHANGE THE
LOCATION OF THE CAPITAL.
I'M NOT SURE THAT YOU COULD
PERCEIVE IT IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE
LIKE YOU COULD NOW.
AND THEY KEPT DOING EVERYTHING
LIKE EVERYTHING WAS GOING OKAY,
EVEN WHEN THE SO-CALLED
BARBARIANS TOOK OVER, THEY TRIED
TO DO THE SAME THINGS THE ROMANS
DID.
THEY KEPT THE SAME TITLE AND
CIVIL SERVANTS.
IT WAS LIKE TRYING TO RECOVER
FROM THE COLLAPSE THE WAY WE
MIGHT TODAY.
KEEP OUR SYSTEMS ON LIFE SUPPORT
AND KEEP WORKING THEM.

The clips end and a white slate with The Agenda logo reads Contact us: TVO, Box 200, Station Q, Toronto, ON M4T 2T1. 1.800.613.0513, 416.484.2600, AgendaConnect@tvo.org.

Steve stands in the studio alone.

He says THAT'S JUST SOME OF
WHAT WE COVERED THIS WEEK ON THE
AGENDA.
FOR MORE, INCLUDING THE FULL
CONVERSATIONS, YOU CAN VISIT OUR
WEBSITE, tvo.org, OUR YouTube
CHANNEL AT youtube.com/theagenda
OR OUR TWITTER FEED:
twitter.com/TheAgenda.

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