Transcript: A Better Way to Battle Bullying | Jan 07, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pale blue shirt, and spotted brown tie.

A caption on screen reads "A better way to battle bullying. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE TRAGIC DEATH IN
OCTOBER OF AN ONTARIO TEEN -
STABBED OUTSIDE HIS SCHOOL AFTER
A SERIES OF BULLYING INCIDENTS -
HAS RAISED MANY SERIOUS
QUESTIONS.
ONE OF THEM IS, HOW EFFECTIVE
REALLY ARE THE MANY
ANTI-BULLYING EFFORTS IN USE IN
THIS PROVINCE?
WITH US TO CONSIDER THAT, IN OUR
STUDIO AT CONFEDERATION COLLEGE
IN THUNDER BAY:
GERALD WALTON, PROFESSOR IN
LAKEHEAD UNIVERSITY'S FACULTY OF
EDUCATION.

Gerald is in his fifties, bald, with a trimmed goatee. He's wearing a pale blue shirt.

Steve continues IN OUR STUDIO AT WESTERN
UNIVERSITY IN LONDON:
KATIE COLE, A HEALTH AND
PHYSICAL EDUCATION TEACHER, AND
MEDIA EDUCATION SPECIALIST WITH
THE THAMES VALLEY DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD.

Katie is in her thirties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a red shirt.

Steve continues AND WITH US HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
ANNALISA VARANO, PRESIDENT OF
THE CATHOLIC PRINCIPALS' COUNCIL ONTARIO AND A PRINCIPAL WITH THE SIMCOE MUSKOKA CATHOLIC DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD...

Annalisa is in her early forties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing a black sweater and a gray scarf.

Steve continues CLAIRE CROOKS, REGISTERED
PSYCHOLOGIST AND DIRECTOR OF THE
CENTRE FOR SCHOOL MENTAL HEALTH
AT WESTERN UNIVERSITY...

Claire is in her fifties, with shoulder-length straight brown hair. She's wearing a black sweater and a gray scarf.

Steve continues JULIE SCHAAFSMA, PARENT IN THE
HAMILTON-WENTWORTH DISTRICT
SCHOOL BOARD AND CO-FOUNDER OF
THE GROUP VOICES AGAINST BULLYING.

Julie is in her thirties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing glasses and a brown sweater.

Steve continues I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR
GATHERING FOR THIS IMPORTANT
DISCUSSION, BOTH HERE IN THE
STUDIO AND IN POINTS BEYOND.
AND TO SET THE TABLE FOR THE
DISCUSSION TO COME, LET'S JUST
PUT A FEW STATISTICS UP HERE.
CONTROL ROOM, MR. DIRECTOR, IF
YOU WOULD, LET'S BRING THESE UP.
58 percent OF STUDENTS... THIS
ACCORDING TO THE ONTARIO COLLEGE
OF TEACHERS...

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Bullying in schools."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
58 percent OF STUDENTS
ARE VICTIMS OF BULLYING.
30 percent BULLY OTHERS.
AND 78 percent HAVE WITNESSED BULLYING,
BUT FEWER THAN HALF HAVE
INTERVENED.
WITH ALL OF THAT OVERARCHING OUR
DISCUSSION HERE, LET'S GET
STARTED.
CLAIRE, HOW WOULD YOU
CHARACTERIZE THE BULLYING
PROBLEM IN ONTARIO SCHOOLS TODAY?

The caption changes to "Claire Crooks. Western University."
Then, it changes again to "A pervasive problem."

Claire says BULLYING IS
A PERVASIVE BEHAVIOUR THAT
OCCURS ANYWHERE CHILDREN COME
TOGETHER, TO PLAY, TO LEARN.
SO IT'S IN SCHOOLS, PLAYGROUNDS,
ANY SWIM TEAM OR SOCCER TEAM OR
ANYWHERE KIDS COME TOGETHER.

Steve says ANNALISA, WHAT WOULD
YOU ADD TO THAT?

The caption changes to "Annalisa Varano. Catholic Principals' Council, Ontario."

Annalisa says I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS A VERY COMPLEX
SOCIETAL ISSUE.
ON TOP OF THAT, IT HAPPENS
EVERYWHERE.
IT'S NOT... IT CAN'T JUST BE
OWNED IN ONE AREA.
AND WITH THAT IT'S GOING TO BE
VERY COMPLEX SOLUTIONS THAT NEED
TO BE... HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION IS REALLY IMPORTANT
AS WE COME TOGETHER TO DISCUSS
WAYS ON HOW WE CAN COLLECTIVELY
HELP TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

Steve says CLEARLY A VERY HARD
PROBLEM TO SOLVE.

Annalisa says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says CLEARLY.
GERALD, WHAT WOULD YOU ADD TO
THAT?

The caption changes to "Gerald Walton. Lakehead University."

Gerald says I WOULD ADD
TO THAT THAT IT'S A SYSTEMIC
PROBLEM THAT TARGETS PEOPLE WHO
ARE MARGINALIZED OR WHO PRESENT
THEMSELVES AS DIFFERENT, AND
THAT IT'S AN ABUSE OF POWER IN
THOSE RESPECTS.

Steve says KATIE COLE?

The caption changes to "Katie Cole. Thames Valley District School Board."

Katie says WELL, I'M
THINKING THAT, FROM A TEACHER'S
PERSPECTIVE, WE WANT ALL OF OUR
CLASSROOMS AND SCHOOLS TO BE
SAFE AND WE WANT OUR CHILDREN TO
BE PROTECTED, AND I THINK THAT
IT'S GOING TO TAKE A REALLY BIG
EFFORT ON EVERYONE'S PART, AND
TEACHERS' PART, TO MAKE SURE
THAT THEY ARE SAFE.

Steve says JULIE, I'VE LEFT YOU
FOR THE END BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU
HAVE COME TO THIS ISSUE FOR AN
ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC REASON.
DO YOU WANT TO TELL US WHAT
MOTIVATED YOU TO GET INVOLVED?

The caption changes to "Julie Schaafsma. Parent."

Julie says I WAS MOTIVATED TO START THIS GROUP
BECAUSE I WAS NOTICING A LOT OF
PARENTS THAT WERE VERY LONELY,
VERY FULL OF ANGER AND THERE
WASN'T ANYWHERE TO DIRECT THE
LONELINESS AND THE ANGER.
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE ON
THEIR OWN THAT FELT VERY LET
DOWN BY THE SYSTEM, NOT JUST FOR
ONE TIME OR TWO TIMES OR A THIRD
TIME, FOR YEARS THAT THEY WERE
STRUGGLING TO HELP THEIR
CHILDREN AND BE HEARD BY
WHATEVER SCHOOL BOARD THEY WERE
IN, WHATEVER COMMUNITY THEY WERE
IN.
I WAS NOTICING A LOT OF PEOPLE
THAT WERE EXPRESSING HOW IT
NEEDS TO STOP, AND THAT
SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE, AND
THAT IT JUST WASN'T WORKING.
BUT YET THERE WAS NOTHING BEING
DONE ABOUT THAT, THAT I COULD
FIND AT THE TIME.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO
REMIND US ABOUT THE STORY OF
DEVAN IN HAMILTON AND HOW THAT
PROMPTED YOU TO TAKE SOME
ACTION?

The caption changes to "Julie Schaafsma. Voices Against Bullying."

Julie says I DON'T FEEL LIKE I HAVE THE
RIGHT TO REALLY SPEAK ON BEHALF
OF THAT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HIS
MOTHER.
WHEN I DID HEAR ABOUT THE EVENT
THAT HAD HAPPENED, I ACTUALLY
UNDERSTOOD IT, THAT IT HAD
HAPPENED IN THE STATES, AND MY
THOUGHT PROCESS WAS: WOW, HOW
SAD.
WHAT'S GOING ON DOWN THERE?
THEY'RE OUT OF CONTROL.
LIKE, SOMETHING'S MISSING AND
THINGS LIKE THAT.
AND THEN LATER ON THAT DAY, WHEN
MORE INFORMATION CAME OUT AND
MORE DETAILS WERE RELEASED, I
REALIZED THAT IT WAS NOT ONLY
WITHIN MY OWN DISTRICT BUT IT
WAS 20 MINUTES FROM MY OWN HOME.

Steve says A 14-YEAR-OLD BOY
STABBED TO DEATH OUTSIDE HIS
SCHOOL.

Julie says IN FRONT OF HIS MOTHER.

Steve says IN FRONT OF HIS MOTHER.

Julie says WHO WAS THERE TO PICK HIM UP
BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID TO BE AT
SCHOOL.
SO AFTER THAT HAPPENED, READING
ALL OF THE COMMENTS AND THE
SOCIAL MEDIA THINGS THAT WERE
ALL GOING ON, EVERYONE WAS JUST
DONE WITH THAT... THAT IT COULD
HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, BUT YET
THERE WAS NOWHERE TO REALLY
HARNESS ALL OF THESE VOICES TO
POSITIVELY MAKE AN IMPACT IN
HELPING BRING THESE CHANGES
BACK.

Steve says CLAIRE, I SUSPECT
BULLYING IS ONE OF THESE THINGS
WHERE YOU KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE
IT, BUT MAYBE WE NEED A
CLINICAL-PROFESSIONAL DEFINITION
OF WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS.
SO WOULD YOU PROVIDE THAT?

The caption changes to "Claire Crooks, @FourthRnews."
Then, it changes again to "Definitions and motivations."

Claire says SURE.
SO TYPICALLY WE DEFINE BULLYING
WITH THREE ASPECTS, WHEN IT'S
INTENTIONAL AND THERE'S A POWER
IMBALANCE AND IT'S REPEATED.
SO EVERYBODY WHO WORKS WITH
CHILDREN, AND CHILDREN
THEMSELVES, NEED TO LEARN THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUST KIND OF
HAVING A CONFLICT, DISAGREEMENT
WITH A FRIEND, AND BULLYING.
AND OF COURSE WITH THE RISE OF
MEDIA... SOCIAL MEDIA, IT'S
TAKEN ON NEW FORMS, BUT IT STILL
HAS THOSE SAME THREE ASPECTS.

Steve says DO I INFER THAT IT'S
ALMOST ALWAYS MANY ON ONE?

Claire says NO... THAT'S ONE WAY TO HAVE
POWER, BUT THE POWER CAN BE IN
TERMS OF... IT COULD BE SIZE,
YOU KNOW, THAT'S SORT OF THE
CHARLIE BROWN VERSION OF THE BIG
BULLY, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY
OTHER WAYS FOR KIDS TO HAVE
POWER OVER OTHERS.
AND GERALD MADE A REALLY
IMPORTANT POINT THAT OFTEN IT'S
ALSO AROUND IDENTITIES AND HOW
SOCIETY POSITIONS DIFFERENT
IDENTITIES AND THAT CHILDREN WHO
ARE PART OF MORE MARGINALIZED
GROUPS, THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO
BE TARGETED AND THE IMPACTS ARE
GOING TO BE WORSE.

Steve says GERALD, THE
INFERENCE MANY PEOPLE PROBABLY
DRAW IS THAT... AT LEAST YOU
HEAR THIS ANECDOTALLY, OF COURSE
THAT KID IS A BULLY, HE COMES
FROM A BAD HOME, HIS PARENTS ARE
BOTH AWFUL, SO THEREFORE HE'S A
BULLY.
HOW TRUE IS THAT?

Gerald says I'M SURE
IT'S TRUE IN SOME FAMILIES.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL OR
NOTHING HERE.
BUT WHAT I DO THINK THAT FOR
PEOPLE WHO ARE BULLYING
ROUTINELY AND THEY'VE GOT THE
GROUPS THAT THEY TARGET AND
THEY'VE GOT THE GROUPS THAT
SUPPORT THEM, I THINK WHAT'S
SORT OF MISSING... FOR ME
ANYWAY... IS A DISCUSSION AROUND
THE ELEMENT OF POWER AND HOW
POWER IS A FACT... A FUNCTION OF
PLEASURE, RIGHT?
SO THERE'S RESEARCH THAT'S
LOOKED INTO BRAIN CHEMISTRY OF
KIDS WHO BULLY AND HOW THE
PLEASURE CENTRES ARE BEING
STIMULATED WHEN ACTS OF BULLYING
ARE GOING ON, AND THOSE SORTS OF
THINGS.
THERE'S AN ADRENALIN RUSH THAT
HAPPENS.
SO IT'S WHAT MOTIVATES BULLYING
BEHAVIOURS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Steve says WHY WOULD YOU GET AN
ADRENALINE RUSH AND PLEASURE
AND-OR HAPPINESS FROM CAUSING
OTHER PEOPLE MISERY?

Gerald says BECAUSE PAIN... SORRY, I BACK
THAT UP.
PLEASURE IS SOMETHING
PLEASURABLE AND POWER IS
PLEASURE.

Steve says HMM.

Gerald says AND THE RESEARCH IS
DEMONSTRATING MORE AND MORE THAT
THERE ARE EFFECTS IN THE
CHEMISTRY OF THE BRAIN... LIKE I
SAID BEFORE... THAT LEAD TO THE
PLEASURE CENTRES, AND THERE IS
PLEASURE THAT COMES FROM KNOWING
THAT YOU HAVE AN AUDIENCE, I.E.
BYSTANDERS, YOU HAVE AN AUDIENCE
AND YOU ARE GAINING SOCIAL
STATUS BY ENGAGING IN THE
BEHAVIOUR THAT YOU'RE ENGAGING
IN IN A BROADER SOCIAL CONTEXT.

Steve says GOT IT.
KATIE, TELL US THIS.
WE MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING
THAT 78 percent OF PEOPLE WHO GO TO
SCHOOL WITNESS BULLYING BUT
FEWER THAN HALF ACTUALLY
INTERVENE.
WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE SO FEW PEOPLE
ARE PREPARED TO ACTUALLY DO
ANYTHING ABOUT IT WHEN THEY SEE IT?

The caption changes to "Katie Cole, @TVDSB."
Then, it changes again to "Interventions and approaches."

Katie says WELL, FOR
STUDENTS, I THINK IT'S THAT YOU
DON'T WANT TO RAT OUT YOUR
FRIENDS AND YOU DON'T WANT TO BE
SEEN AS THE TATTLE TALE.
SO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, YOU KNOW,
I GO AND I REPORT IT, AND MAYBE
NOTHING COMES OF THAT.
NOW SUDDENLY I BECOME THE
TARGET, IF I'M THE WITNESS, AND
I DON'T WANT TO PUT MYSELF IN
THAT SORT OF POSITION.
SO I CAN SEE STUDENTS TAKING
THAT TO HEART AND REALLY
AVOIDING REPORTING.
WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT POWER
THERE, I THINK THE TERM
"BULLYING" HAS BEEN EVOLVING
OVER TIME.
I'VE BEEN TEACHING FOR ABOUT 17
YEARS.
AND WHEN I FIRST STARTED
TEACHING, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
BULLYING AND NOW, YOU KNOW, 17
YEARS LATER, WE'RE STILL TALKING
ABOUT IT.
AND I THINK THE DEFINITION IS
SHIFTING.
IT'S EVOLVING.
SO WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
THERE BEING THIS POWER OR THE
POWER IMBALANCE.
NOW WITH TECHNOLOGY, SOMETIMES
THE PERSON THAT IS ONLINE IS
ANONYMOUS.
THEY MIGHT NOT BE, YOU KNOW, THE
POPULAR, COOL KID, OR HAVE, YOU
KNOW, SOME SORT OF SOCIAL
STANDING IN THE REAL WORLD, BUT
ONLINE, BECAUSE THEY'RE
ANONYMOUS OR THEY CAN, YOU KNOW,
POWER... OR THEY CAN, YOU KNOW,
DRAW ALL THESE LIKES AND
FOLLOWERS AND PEOPLE SHARE, THEN
THEY GET POWER FROM THAT, AND
LIKE WE WERE SAYING, MAYBE
PLEASURE FROM THAT AS WELL.

Steve says THAT'S A GREAT
POINT.
ANNALISA, BASED ON YOUR
EXPERIENCE IN YOUR SCHOOL
SYSTEM, IS MOST BULLYING IN THE
SCHOOLYARD THESE DAYS WHERE
PEOPLE ACTUALLY SEE ONE ANOTHER,
OR IS IT MORE ONLINE NOWADAYS?

The caption changes to "Annalisa Varano, @CpcoPresident."

Annalisa says I WOULD
SAY IT'S MORE AND MORE
INCREASINGLY ONLINE.
AGAIN, THAT'S WHERE I THINK WE
START TO LOSE CONTROL OVER THE
ISSUE AND IT STARTS TO
PERPETUATE ITSELF IN THOSE WAYS
BECAUSE STUDENTS ARE TALKING TO
HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ONLINE, AND
EVEN THEIR PARENTS ARE UNAWARE
AT TIMES OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN
THAT TECHNOLOGICAL WORLD.
IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE
COMPLICATED.
A LOT OF THINGS BEGIN ONLINE AND
THEN THEY FILTER INTO THE
SCHOOL.
AND SO THEN OFTENTIMES IN OUR
CASES WE ARE LEFT WITH VERY
LIMITED INFORMATION.
PARENTS ARE VERY OFTEN HESITANT
TO COME TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE
WITH THE SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY ARE
FEARFUL OF FURTHER RETALIATION
ON THEIR CHILDREN OR SOMETHING
BAD IS GOING TO HAPPEN IF
THEY'VE TOLD.
AND SO IT LEAVES US WITH VERY
LIMITED INFORMATION TO CONDUCT
THOSE INVESTIGATIONS PROPERLY.

Steve says IS THAT PART OF THE
ISSUE HERE?
THERE'S SOME KIND OF, FOR LACK
OF A BETTER EXPRESSION, OMERTA,
LIKE IT'S THE MOB AND NOBODY
WANTS TO RAT OUT?

Julie says WHO IS RESPONSIBLE AND WHERE.
IT'S IN SCHOOL TIME FRAME BUT
IT'S OFF SCHOOL PROPERTY.
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT?
WHO IS WATCHING THESE KIDS?
WHO IS TAKING CARE OF THESE
KIDS?
ON THE BUS...

Steve says AT THE MALL.

Julie says RIGHT AT THE MALL.
IN THE BATHROOMS.
IN THE CHANGE ROOMS.
IN THE HALLWAYS.
IT'S EVERYWHERE.
AND GOING BACK TO THE BYSTANDERS
AND WHY A LOT OF KIDS ARE
AFRAID, OR NOT KNOWING HOW TO
INTERJECT AND JUST STOP THINGS,
IS THAT WE'RE FINDING WITHIN OUR
GROUP AND THE THINGS THAT WE'RE
SHARING AND STORIES THAT WE'RE
SHARING IS THAT, DURING THESE
ANTI-BULLYING WEEKS, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
ANTI-BULLYING AND WE'RE WEARING
OUR T-SHIRTS AND WE'RE TELLING
THE KIDS NOT TO BE BYSTANDERS,
TO BE UPSTANDERS, BUT THEY DON'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says WHY NOT?

Julie says THEY'RE NOT BEING TAUGHT WHAT
THAT ACTUALLY MEANS.
SO AS AN ADULT, WE KNOW WHAT
THAT MEANS.
AS A TEACHER, WE KNOW WHAT THAT
MEANS.
AND WE'RE JUST KIND OF ASSUMING
THAT THESE KIDS KNOW THAT WHEN
THEY'RE SEEING SOMETHING, A
POWER SHIFT GOING ON BETWEEN TWO
PEOPLE, THAT THEY'RE JUST...
THEY'RE GOING TO BE AN UPSTANDER
AND THEY'RE GOING TO GET
INVOLVED, BUT THEY'RE NOT TAUGHT
THE TOOLS ON HOW TO GET INVOLVED
AND HOW TO MEDIATE WHAT'S
HAPPENING, SO THEN IT SHIFTS AND
THEN THEY BECOME THE VICTIM, AND
IT DOESN'T HELP EITHER OF THE
TWO ORIGINAL PEOPLE.

Steve says GERALD, IN WHICH
CASE, WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IS IT
TO TEACH STUDENTS HOW TO BE
UPSTANDERS, HOW TO BE UPSTANDING
CITIZENS?

Gerald says WELL,
TEACHING STUDENTS IS A COMPLEX
THING.
AND ONE OF THE WAYS THAT I SORT
OF THINK ABOUT THIS AND GO ABOUT
THIS IS THAT THERE'S NOT GOING
TO BE... IN MY VIEW ANYWAY...
THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE A LOT OF
SUCCESS IN TEACHING STUDENTS
ABOUT THESE THINGS UNLESS WE ARE
REALLY COMING AT IT FROM THE
PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT MOTIVATES
THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOUR IN THE
FIRST PLACE.
SO, YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE TRYING TO
GRAPPLE WITH, YOU KNOW, PLEASURE
AS A MOTIVATION AND STIGMATIZING
OTHER PEOPLE WHO WE FEEL ARE
LESSER THAN US AS A MOTIVATION,
AND IF WE'RE MOTIVATED BY THE
SOCIAL STATUS THAT WE GAIN OUT
OF DOING THESE THINGS IN A GROUP
CONTEXT, THOSE THINGS I THINK
MEAN TO PEOPLE WHO BULLY THAT
THEY GET AN AWFUL LOT OUT OF IT,
AND IN FACT SOME KIDS IN
RESEARCH HAVE GONE SO FAR AS TO
DESCRIBE HOW, YOU KNOW, BULLYING
IS A FUN THING FOR THEM.
SO I KIND OF THINK THAT THOSE
THINGS NEED TO BE FACTORED IN
AND TAUGHT TO STUDENTS IN A
VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT
ARE POSSIBLE BEFORE WE'RE REALLY
GOING TO MAKE ANY GROUND.
BECAUSE I REALLY DON'T THINK, IN
THE YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN LOOKING
AT THIS TOPIC, I REALLY DON'T
THINK WE'VE MADE ANY GROUND
WHATSOEVER, AND IN FACT PROBABLY
THINGS ARE WORSE.

Steve says OH, MY.

Gerald says THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY.

Steve says CLAIRE, WE HEAR ONE
OF THE THINGS BEING BROUGHT TO
BEAR HERE TO TRY TO HELP IS
SOMETHING CALLED PROGRESSIVE
DISCIPLINE.
WHAT IS THAT?

Claire says SURE.
SO PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE IS A
POLICY OR APPROACH THAT MEANS
THAT WHEN THERE IS MISBEHAVIOUR
OR SOME KIND OF INCIDENT, THAT
YOU DON'T GO FROM ZERO TO A
HUNDRED IN YOUR RESPONSE RIGHT
AWAY.
THAT YOU SORT OF START WITH A
MINIMUM RESPONSE... BECAUSE
YOU'RE BALANCING OUT THE NEEDS
OF SOMEBODY WHO IS ENGAGED IN
THIS POWER AND HURT SOMEBODY,
AND THEN THE NEEDS OF THE PERSON
WHO HAS ALSO EXPERIENCED THAT OR
BEEN VICTIMIZED.
AND SCHOOL BOARDS, TEACHERS HAVE
AN OBLIGATION TO BOTH THOSE
CHILDREN.
IT'S TRICKY, BECAUSE FROM A
PARENT LOOKING IN, IF IT'S NOT
WELL-DESCRIBED OR THEY HAVEN'T
BOUGHT INTO IT, IT LOOKS LIKE
PEOPLE ARE GETTING AWAY WITH
STUFF.
BUT THE IDEA IS YOU INCREASE THE
RESPONSE OR SANCTIONS OR
CONSEQUENCES UNTIL THE BEHAVIOUR
CHANGES, BUT YOU DON'T START BY
SUSPENDING KIDS OR THROWING THEM
OUT OF SCHOOL.

Steve says THAT'S INTERESTING.
Annalisa, I'LL GO TO YOU ON
THIS ONE.
I GUESS 20 YEARS AGO WHEN THE
MIKE HARRIS CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT WAS IN POWER, THEY
TOOK A ZERO TOLERANCE APPROACH
WHICH BASICALLY MEANT SUSPENSION
OR EXPULSION, YOU KNOW,
POTENTIALLY RIGHT OFF THE BAT.
DO WE DO THAT ANYMORE?

Annalisa says TYPICALLY
WE DO FOLLOW UP PROGRESSIVE
DISCIPLINE MODELS.
WE WANT TO TRY TO REALLY TAKE
SOME TIME AND INVESTIGATE THE
SITUATION AT HANDS AND THE
PLAYERS THAT ARE INVOLVED.
IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS AN
EXTREME BEHAVIOUR, THEN WE
OBVIOUSLY ARE GOING TO SKIP SOME
OF THOSE STEPS BECAUSE THERE ARE
TIMES WHEN SUSPENSION IS
NECESSARY IMMEDIATELY.

Claire says AND IT'S LEGISLATED WHEN YOU
NEED TO CONSIDER THAT
IMMEDIATELY.

Annalisa says THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH.

Claire says SO THERE ARE RULES.

Steve says SO THERE'S NO
DISCRETION IN THAT CASE.

Claire says NO, THERE IS DISCRETION, BUT
YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST CONSIDER
IT...

Annalisa says CONSIDER IT.
AND I THINK ALSO WHAT'S VERY
IMPORTANT IN THAT PROCESS OF
SUSPENSION IS THE RESTORATIVE
PIECE.
SO ACTUALLY THAT TIME OF
REHABILITATION.
SO TO SUSPEND AND SEND HOME,
SOMETIMES THAT TIME OUT IS
REALLY NECESSARY.
WHEN THEY'RE RETURNING TO
SCHOOL, THOUGH, IF WE HAVEN'T
ADDRESSED THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE
AND THE RELATIONSHIP PIECE
THERE, WE CAN'T VERY WELL JUST
SEND THEM BACK TO CLASS AND
EXPECT THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING
TO BE NORMALIZED.
I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A
CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME
SPENT ON REBUILDING THOSE
RELATIONSHIPS, DEVELOPING
TRUSTING, HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS
IN THE SCHOOL REALLY IS AT THE
ROOT CAUSE OF TRYING TO MANAGE
THIS ISSUE.

Steve says KATIE, CAN I GET
YOUR VIEW ON THE SORT OF TWO
POLAR OPPOSITES OF THIS, WHETHER
IT'S EITHER ZERO TOLERANCE,
IMMEDIATE SUSPENSION OR
EXPULSION, VERSUS PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE?

Katie says WELL, AS A
TEACHER, I KNOW THAT WHAT I SEE
IN MY CLASSROOM, I HAVE TO STAND
DOWN, IT'S MY OBLIGATION TO SEND
ANY ISSUER DOWN TO THE OFFICE OR
EVEN CONSULT WITH OUR GUIDANCE.
I HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, FILL OUT
ALL THE NECESSARY FORMS WHEN IT
COMES TO AN INCIDENT.
I LIKE THE IDEA THAT THERE'S
THIS PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE
THAT'S HAPPENING, ESPECIALLY FOR
MY CLASSROOM, IF BOTH THOSE
STUDENTS NOW ARE COMING BACK
AFTER HAVING... THEY'VE EITHER
SAT OUT OR A SUSPENSION,
WHATEVER IT IS, A MEDIATION,
THEY'RE COMING BACK INTO MY
CLASSROOM AND I WANT THAT TO BE
A COMFORTABLE SITUATION FOR
EVERYBODY INVOLVED.
SO I DO THINK THAT IT'S A
VALUABLE THING TO HAPPEN,
ESPECIALLY MOVING FORWARD.

Steve says JULIE, HOW ABOUT YOU
ON PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE
VERSUS, WE'VE GOT YOU, YOU'RE OUT?

The caption changes to "Julie Schaafsma, @parentsmakingc1."

Julie says FROM
WITHIN THE GROUP, WE FIND THAT A
LOT OF PARENTS DON'T UNDERSTAND
WHAT PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE IS.
IT'S THERE.
IT'S INCREDIBLY HARD TO DECIPHER
IN THE LEGISLATION.
I MYSELF WAS A BIT IGNORANT, AND
ONLY THROUGH THIS GROUP REALIZED
THAT IT'S NOT ZERO TOLERANCE
ANYMORE, THAT IT IS NOW ACTUALLY
CALLED PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS SHIFTED
AND CHANGED, AND I THINK NOW
THAT I'VE LEARNED MORE ABOUT IT,
IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN
ABSOLUTELY WORK IF IT'S DONE
PROPERLY ON BOTH SIDES.
BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENING IS A
LOT OF THE PARENTS AND THE KIDS
THAT ARE GOING TO THE OFFICE AND
CALLING THE OFFICE ARE NOT AWARE
OF THE POLICIES AND PROCEDURES
THAT HAVE TO TAKE PLACE WHEN THE
INCIDENT IS MADE AND THE REPORT
IS MADE.
THEY LEAVE FEELING THEY'VE GOT
NO HELP, THEY'RE NOT BEING
LISTENED TO, AND THEY DON'T KNOW
WHAT'S GOING ON AND THEY'RE TOLD
THEY CAN'T BE TOLD THAT.
THERE'S NO TRANSPARENCY BEING
MADE BETWEEN WHAT THEIR CHILD IS
GOING THROUGH AND WHAT'S GOING
TO HAPPEN TO THE OTHER CHILD OR
THE PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT.
THEY DON'T KNOW THAT.
YOU KNOW, THE PRINCIPAL DOESN'T
KNOW THERE WAS ANOTHER
INCIDENT... THAT PRINCIPAL CAN'T
DO ANYTHING, BUT THE PARENT
ALREADY, THE FIRST INCIDENT WAS
KIND OF TURNED OFF, SAYING I'M
NOT GOING TO DO THAT AGAIN
BECAUSE NOTHING HAPPENED,
BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND
WHAT THESE PRINCIPALS AND
TEACHERS HAVE TO DO.

Steve says ANNALISA, YOU LOOK
LIKE YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO
THAT.

Annalisa says THERE IS
SIGNIFICANT CONFIDENTIAL AND
PRIVACY LAWS THAT WE ARE BOUND
BY AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATORS.
EVEN THOUGH IT MAY NOT APPEAR
THAT AN INVESTIGATION HAS NOT
BEEN FOLLOWED THROUGH
APPROPRIATELY, IN MANY CASE IT
IS, BUT WE ARE NOT ABLE TO
DISCLOSE A LOT OF THAT
INFORMATION.
AND SO SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE
JUST TAKING PLACE WITHOUT THE
PARENTS... AGAIN, IT'S VERY
FRUSTRATING I THINK FOR PARENTS
TO NOT REALLY BE INVOLVED IN THE
ENTIRE PROCESS, BUT WE HAVE TO
TAKE THOSE INTO CONSIDERATION AS WELL.

Claire says I THINK WE'RE
MISCHARACTERIZING ZERO TOLERANCE
A BIT.
IT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY INTENDED
TO BE A ONE STRIKE YOU'RE OUTTA
HERE.
PHILOSOPHICALLY, IT'S A VERY
STRONG PHILOSOPHICAL POSITION
THAT WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO
WORK AWAY AT THIS AND FIGURE OUT
WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T
UNTIL WE HAVE ZERO TOLERANCE.
I DON'T THINK THAT PROGRESSIVE
DISCIPLINE IS THE OPPOSITE OF
ZERO TOLERANCE.
SO WE CAN HAVE THIS.
BUT WE KNOW THAT ZERO TOLERANCE,
AS INTERPRETED BY... IF YOU GET
SENT TO THE OFFICE, YOU'LL BE
SUSPENDED, DOESN'T WORK.
JUST THAT POWER-BASED PARENTING
OR POWER-BASED KIND OF
DISCIPLINE DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE
YOU'RE SENDING THESE KIDS HOME
WHERE THEY'RE NOW MAYBE AT RISK
FOR FURTHER DISENGAGEMENT FROM
SCHOOL.
MAYBE THEY'RE NOT WELL
SUPERVISED AT HOME.
THAT PART OF THE REHABILITATION
OR MEDIATION, AS KATIE
MENTIONED, DOESN'T HAPPEN.
THEY COME BACK OR THEY GET
BOUNCED TO ANOTHER SCHOOL AND
IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.
IF JUST SUSPENDING OR EXPELLING
WORKS, THEN IT WOULD MAKE SENSE
TO EXPLORE.
BUT IT'S REALLY CLEAR IT DOESN'T
ACTUALLY WORK.

Steve says GERALD, LET ME GIVE
A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT EXAMPLES
HERE AND YOU TELL ME SORT OF
WHAT MAKES SENSE AND WHAT
DOESN'T.
A LITTLE PUSHING AND SHOVING
AFTER A CLASS ONE DAY.
THAT'S ONE FORM OF BULLYING AND
PRESUMABLY YOU'RE NOT SENT HOME
FOR THAT.
WHAT IF A STUDENT PULLS A KNIFE
ON ANOTHER STUDENT?
SURELY TO GOODNESS THERE'S ZERO
TOLERANCE FOR THAT?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Gerald says I WOULD
ARGUE FOR SURE, YES, DEFINITELY.
BUT WHEN I THINK OF... WHEN I
THINK OF SOMETHING LIKE
BULLYING, I THINK OF SOMETHING
FAR MORE, OVER TIME AND OVER
REPEATED EVENTS OF ONE SORT OR
ANOTHER.
SO A ONE KNIFE INCIDENT IS THE
ONE KNIFE INCIDENT.
ZERO TOLERANCE FOR THAT FOR SURE
AND ZERO TOLERANCE FOR OTHER
THINGS.
MY CONCERN ABOUT BULLYING,
THOUGH, IS THAT, WHILE THOSE
OTHER INCIDENTS THAT YOU
DESCRIBED CERTAINLY HAPPEN,
BULLYING, AS I THINK OF IT, IS
ONGOING AND REPEATED AND PRETTY
MUCH DAILY, AND SO IT'S THAT
KIND OF BULLYING THAT CONCERNS
ME THE MOST BECAUSE OF ITS
MOTIVATIONS BUT ALSO ITS
EFFECTS.
YOU KNOW, PART OF ME ISN'T
REALLY SURPRISED AT HOW MUCH
BULLYING STILL GOES ON IN
SCHOOLS GIVEN HOW MUCH WE SEE
GOING ON OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL.
SO SCHOOLS ARE NOT... YOU KNOW,
IN A VACUUM PACK AWAY FROM THE
WORLD, THEY'RE PART OF THE
WORLD.
AND BULLYING THAT GOES ON
MIRRORS THE SAME KINDS OF IDEAS
AND THEMES AS BULLYING THAT
HAPPENS OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL.
SO WE HAVE... YOU KNOW, RIGHT
NOW WE HAVE HOCKEY BEING...
GOING THROUGH ITS MOMENT OF
PROCESS OR MOMENT OF RECKONING
OR WHATEVER.
THAT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING MORE
AND MORE.
THAT'S A FORM OF BULLYING.
THAT'S A FORM OF BULLYING THAT'S
BEEN VALIDATED FOR A LONG, LONG
TIME, AND THE DON CHERRY THING
HAPPENED AND, YOU KNOW, NO
LONGER CAN WE LOOK AT THAT AS
BEING VALID EITHER.
SO THE CONTEXT WHERE BULLYING
WAS SO VALIDATED AND SO
SUPPORTED AND SO NORMALIZED ARE
BEGINNING TO ERODE DOWN, AND I
THINK THAT THOSE KINDS OF THINGS
CAN BE USED ASTERISK EDUCATIONAL
OPPORTUNITIES FOR KIDS IN
SCHOOLS ON AN ONGOING BASIS.

Steve says KATIE, LET ME GET
YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT IN THAT
REGARD.
WE ARE REALLY STARTING TO SEE
THE CURTAIN PEELED BACK ON, FOR
EXAMPLE, NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE
COACHES WHO HAVE MISERABLY
BULLIED THEIR PLAYERS FOR YEARS.
WE HEARD OF THE COACH IN CALGARY
WHO LOST HIS JOB BECAUSE OF
USING THE "N" WORD, BECAUSE THEY
KICKED OR STRANGLED PLAYERS.
IT'S BEEN NUTS.
YOU COULD ARGUE THE BIGGEST
BULLY IN THE WORLD TODAY IS THE
CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES.
I'M WONDERING HOW MUCH... HOW
MUCH OF THAT ACTIVITY, KATIE, DO
YOU THINK HAS AN IMPACT ON
STUDENTS WHO GO TO SCHOOL EVERY DAY?

Katie says I THINK THEY'RE
HYPERAWARE OF ALL OF THOSE
THINGS.
I MEAN, SOME STUDENTS ARE GOING
TO COPY THOSE BEHAVIOURS THAT
THEY ARE SEEING, AND AS A
TEACHER, IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT
TO CATCH SOME OF THE MORE SUBTLE
FORMS OF BULLYING THAT MIGHT
HAPPEN IN OUR CLASSROOMS, LIKE
CUTTING HUMOUR, YOU KNOW, LITTLE
JABS AT THEIR FRIENDS HERE AND
THERE, A COMMENT THAT'S MISSED.
IT'S REALLY... IT'S A BIG
CHALLENGE FOR TEACHERS RIGHT
NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH ALL OF
THESE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE
INFLUENCING THEM AND THEIR
BEHAVIOURS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE
CLASSROOM.
INSIDE OF THE CLASSROOM, WE HAVE
TO DO A REALLY GOOD JOB ABOUT
TALKING ABOUT THOSE THINGS THAT
ARE HAPPENING IN THE NEWS, IN
THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW, ON THE
HOCKEY RINK.
I'D LIKE TO DEBATE... EARLIER ON
WE WERE SAYING THAT NOT A LOT IS
BEING DONE TO TEACH KIDS HOW TO
BE AN UPSTANDER, AND I'D HAVE TO
SAY THAT THAT MIGHT NOT BE TRUE.
LIKE, I THINK THAT WE DO A
PRETTY GOOD JOB, ESPECIALLY,
LET'S SAY, GRADE 9 PHYS. ED.
EVERY STUDENT HAS TO TAKE GRADE
9 PHYS. ED. AND EVERY STUDENT IS
TALKED TO... THEY'RE TALKED
ABOUT ASSERTING THEIR VOICE AND
BEING ABLE TO REPORT SOME OF
THOSE INSTANCES AND BEING ABLE
TO IDENTIFY WHAT'S INAPPROPRIATE
BEHAVIOUR.
IN THE CLASSROOM, I THINK WE'RE
TRYING OUR ABSOLUTE BEST.
I WOULD ALSO SAY IT'S A
CHALLENGE.
WE DON'T ALWAYS SEE EVERYTHING.
IF YOU HAVE 33, 34 STUDENTS IN
YOUR CLASS, I MIGHT MISS THAT
LITTLE, YOU KNOW, UNDERTONE OR
THAT LITTLE COMMENT HERE AND
THERE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT
WE'RE CONTENDING WITH AS
TEACHERS OUTSIDE AND INSIDE OF
THE CLASSROOM.

Steve says FOR SURE.
BUT, CLAIRE, I GUESS I SHOULD
ASK: ARE TEACHERS IN TEACHERS
COLLEGE TAUGHT WHAT BULLYING IS,
HOW TO RECOGNIZE IT, AND WHAT TO
DO ABOUT IT?

Claire says YES.
IF I COULD FOLLOW UP FOR A
SECOND ON WHAT KATIE SAID.
OUR PROGRAM IS THE FOURTH "R,"
AND KATIE IS ONE OF OUR CHAMPION
FOURTH "R" TEACHERS.
WE HAVE DATA THAT SHOWS THAT
WHEN YOU TEACH CHILDREN THESE
SKILLS, THEY CAN INDEED LEARN
THEM AND DEMONSTRATE THEM AND
TWO YEARS LATER THEY'RE
REPORTING LOWER VIOLENCE.

Steve says READING, WRITING,
ARITHMETIC, AND...

Claire says RELATIONSHIPS.

Steve says THAT'S THE FOURTH "R."

Claire says IT CAN BE TAUGHT AT EVERY AGE
AND STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT.
IN SOCIAL SKILLS WE THINK OF
THEM BEING SOMETHING FOR THE
LITTLE ONES.
WHEN YOU HIT ADOLESCENCE, THAT
NUANCE GETS SO COMPLICATED.
ABSOLUTELY, WE NEED TO SWIM
UPSTREAM AND TEACH THIS BETTER
IN TEACHERS COLLEGE.
THAT'S STARTING TO HAPPEN IN
POCKETS.
AT WESTERN, WE HAVE A SAFE
SCHOOLS COURSE.
YOU KNOW, INITIALLY IT WAS
TAUGHT IN GROUPS OF 20 AND
PRE-SERVICE TEACHERS GOT TO
ROLE-PLAY SOME OF THESE
COMPLICATED THINGS AND NOW IT'S
TAUGHT IN THE CLASS OF 350.
SO OBVIOUSLY THE ROLE PLAY HAS
DISAPPEARS.
IT PARALLELS WHAT HAPPENS
SOMETIMES IN SCHOOLS.
WE ALSO HAVE A MENTAL HEALTH
COURSE THAT ALL STUDENTS TAKE
BECAUSE ONE OF THE CHALLENGES I
THINK IS THAT WE'VE SEEN EQUITY
AND BULLYING OR VIOLENCE AND
MENTAL HEALTH AS THESE KIND OF
SEPARATE SILOS, AND YET THEY'RE
VERY INTERWOVEN AND REALLY SOME
OF THE SOLUTIONS ARE PROBABLY
QUITE SIMILAR AND THEY NEED TO
BE ADDRESSED TOGETHER.
BUT WE DO NEED TO DO IT IN A
MUCH MORE INTENTIONAL WAY TEACH
TEACHERS BEFORE THEY GET OUT
THERE, AND I THINK THERE ARE
SOME OPENINGS FOR THAT BECAUSE
THE RECENT HEALTH CURRICULUM
THAT WAS UPDATED IN AUGUST, NOW
MENTAL HEALTH AND SOCIAL
EMOTIONAL LEARNING, SO THAT'S
SKILLS LIKE SELF-MANAGEMENT,
SELF-AWARENESS, SOCIAL
AWARENESS, DECISION-MAKING, AND
HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS ARE PART
OF THE CURRICULUM.
SO TEACHERS ARE SUPPOSED TO
TEACH THOSE THE SAME WAY THEY'RE
SUPPOSED TO TEACH MATH AND
LITERACY.
I THINK THERE ARE SOME OPENINGS
FOR ALL OF THE UNIVERSITIES WHO
PREPARE TEACHERS TO DO THAT MORE
INTENTIONALLY AND EFFECTIVELY.

Steve says I KNOW WE EXPECT
YOUR TEACHERS TO DO EVERYTHING,
TEACH READING, WRITING,
ARITHMETIC, RELATIONSHIPS,
ANTI-BULLYING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
GOT TO BE A LIST OF A THOUSAND
THINGS WE WANT ALL YOUR TEACHERS
TO DO.
DO THEY HAVE ENOUGH BANDWIDTH TO
MAKE ANY PROGRESS ON THIS ONE?

Annalisa says THIS IS AGAIN A VERY COMPLEX
ISSUE AND MORE TIME SHOULD BE
SPENT ON FACILITATING
PEACEMAKING IN THE SCHOOL AND
RELATIONSHIPS AND DEVELOPING
PROPER RELATIONSHIPS, AND I
THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A VERY
ACCURATE SOLUTION, IS TO BE
PUTTING MORE RESOURCES INTO THE
SCHOOLS.
WE HAVE THE EXPERTS IN THE
SCHOOL, BUT IF THEY WERE ABLE TO
REALLOCATE WHAT THEY'RE DOING
THROUGHOUT THE DAY, TO ACTUALLY
SPEND MORE TIME ON DEVELOPING
THESE... YOU KNOW, THIS AGENDA,
I THINK THAT WE WOULD BE MOVING
AHEAD QUITE QUICKLY.
THE ISSUE IS THAT, AGAIN, WE
TALK ABOUT INCREASED CLASS SIZES
AND ALL OF THE DIFFERENT CUTS TO
EDUCATION, AND WITH INCREASED
CLASS SIZES COMES LESS ADULT
SUPERVISION IN THE BUILDING AND
THEY'RE SAYING THAT BULLYING IS
TAKING PLACE IN UNSTRUCTURED
TIMES OF THE DAY AND THEY'RE
UNSTRUCTURED AND THE ADULTS ARE
NOT THERE TO SUPERVISE.
SO THE MORE CUTS YOU MAKE, THE
LESS ADULTS WILL BE IN THE
BUILDING AND THE BIGGER THAT
THIS ISSUE WILL BECOME.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU,
JULIE, ABOUT PARENTS.
WHAT ROLE DO YOU THINK PARENTS
CAN PLAY IN THE ELIMINATION OR
AT LEAST IN THE REDUCTION OF
BULLYING?

The caption changes to "Stomping out the problem."

Julie says I THINK
THAT IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT
TO HAVE A LOT OF RESOURCES
HANDED OUT TO THE PARENTS TO
HELP AT HOME, TO HELP BE A
BIGGER PART OF THE VILLAGE TO
HELP FIX THIS, TO LEARN ABOUT
WHAT RESOURCES ARE THERE AND TO
HAVE A BIT MORE TRANSPARENCY
BETWEEN THIS BIG, SCARY SCHOOL
BOARD THAT'S NOW... A LOT OF
PEOPLE VIEW AS THE ENEMY, AND
THE PARENTS THAT ARE SENDING
THEIR KIDS TO THESE SCHOOLS.
I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A
LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, THAT IT
NEEDS TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT AS
TO WHAT IT IS THEY'RE DOING AND
HOW THEY'RE DOING IT SO THAT WE
UNDERSTAND, WHEN WE'RE GOING
HOME WITH OUR KIDS, THAT YOU GET
THE CALL THAT YOUR CHILD HAS
BEEN BROUGHT DOWN TO THE OFFICE,
ON EITHER SIDE OF THE INCIDENT,
WHAT YOU AT HOME HAVE THE TOOLS
TO DO.
BECAUSE SCHOOL IS CLOSED AT
3:00.
SO IN THAT EVENING...

Steve says YOU DO KNOW YOU HAVE
A SCHOOL BOARD OFFICIAL SITTING
RIGHT BESIDE YOU.
WHEN YOU SAID THAT MANY PARENTS
LOOK AT SCHOOL BOARDS AS THE
ENEMY...

Julie says THEY DO.

Steve says WHY?

Julie says BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT OF
ANGER.
BECAUSE THEY'RE MET WITH
RESISTANCE.
AND THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE JUST
NOT BEING LISTENED TO AND THAT
THERE'S THIS BLANKET BEING PUT
OVER AND... BECAUSE IT DOESN'T
HAPPEN ONCE OR TWICE.
IT HAPPENS FOR YEARS.

Steve says REPEATED
INDIFFERENCE TO YOUR ISSUES?

Julie says REPEATED...

Claire says PARENTS ALSO NEED TO TAKE
THAT RESPONSIBILITY.
NOW I'M SPEAKING AS A PARENT.
BECAUSE WHENEVER YOU DO A TALK,
EVERYONE SAYS, WHAT ARE THE
SIGNS MY KID IS BEING BULLIED.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE THAT.
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF YOUR CHILD
WAS INFRINGING THE RIGHTS ON...
IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS, SCHOOLS
CAN TEACH THEM AND IT CAN BE
DONE IN CURRICULUM.
AS PARENTS WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT
SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN THE
NEWS, IT'S A GREAT OPPORTUNITY
WITH YOUR KIDS, WHEN YOU'RE IN
THE CAR AND THEY CAN'T GET AWAY
FROM YOU.
"WHAT DO YOU DO IF THAT WAS YOUR
FRIEND?
HAVE YOU HAD THAT HAPPEN?"
AND TO REALLY TAKE THAT
RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE TEACHERS
CAN'T DO IT ALL, BUT ALSO IT'S
CRITICAL BECAUSE KIDS CAN'T
LEARN IF THEY'RE NOT SAFE.

Steve says DO YOU THINK WITH
ALL THE INFLUENCES OUR YOUNG
PEOPLE HAVE TODAY, BOTH IN
PERSON AND ON THEIR SMARTPHONES,
IS IT REASONABLE TO EXPECT THEM
TO GET INVOLVED, TO MAKE
PROGRESS, TO TRY TO ELIMINATE
BULLYING IN THEIR MIDST?

Gerald says I'M NOT ALL
THAT ENCOURAGED, ACTUALLY.
I'M NOT ALL THAT ENCOURAGED BY
THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN AND THE
CULTURE THAT WE LIVE IN AND THE
MEDIA THAT WE CONSUME THAT
FOCUSES AND VALIDATES AND
NORMALIZES SO MUCH OF THE KIND
OF BEHAVIOUR THAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT.
IT'S ALL AROUND US, REALLY.
BUT I DO THINK THAT IF KIDS CAN
BE EDUCATED IN SOME KIND OF
SYSTEMIC WAY, NOT JUST A
ONCE-OFF, BUT A SYSTEMIC WAY
AROUND WHAT IT IS THEY'RE
CONSUMING AND HOW THAT'S
RELATING TO BEHAVIOURS THAT
THEY'RE ENGAGING IN AND
EDUCATING ABOUT THE HOCKEY THING
THAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW,
EDUCATING ABOUT MeToo,
EDUCATING ABOUT ALL THESE
THINGS, EDUCATING ABOUT HOW KIDS
TEND TO GET TARGETED BECAUSE OF
SOME DIFFERENT ASPECT ABOUT
THEM, GENDER DIFFERENCE,
SEXUALITY DIFFERENCE, A
DIFFERENCE IN RELIGIOUS
AFFILIATION, THOSE SORTS OF
THINGS... LIKE, KIDS GET
TARGETED FOR PARTICULAR REASONS.
AND SCHOOLS BY AND LARGE OVER
THE YEARS HAVE NOT DONE A VERY
GOOD JOB AT SUPPORTING TARGETED
GROUPS OF KIDS THAT WAY.
SO MY FEAR... MY FEAR... IS THAT
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THESE
CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO
DISCUSS THE ELEMENTS WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT AND IT WILL BE 50
YEARS FROM NOW.
THIS IS MY FEAR.
BUT I DO FIND HOPE IN SOME
THINGS, WHICH IS WHY I'M HERE
AND WHY I DO THE WORK THAT I DO.

Steve says KATIE, IF THERE WAS
ONE THING THAT YOU COULD DO
DIFFERENTLY TO MAKE THINGS
BETTER, WHAT WOULD IT BE?

Katie says MY BIGGEST
CONCERN RIGHT NOW IS THE DIGITAL
ASPECT, IS WHEN KIDS ARE GOING
ONLINE AND THERE'S ELECTRONIC
BULLYING OR DIGITAL DRAMA,
DIGITAL DISRESPECT, WHATEVER YOU
WANT TO CALL IT, ONLINE HATRED,
I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE
EDUCATED ALL THE WAY FROM JK ALL
THE WAY UP UNTIL GRADE 12 ON HOW
TO BE GOOD DIGITAL CITIZENS, HOW
TO BE SAFE ONLINE.
THAT'S A HUGE PIECE, ESPECIALLY
BECAUSE THEY'RE SPENDING 8 HOURS
OF THEIR DAY WITH TECHNOLOGY,
WITH MEDIA, AND I MIGHT ONLY SEE
THEM FOR A 70-MINUTE PERIOD.
I JUST THINK THAT EDUCATION
PIECE IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND I
KNOW, EVEN FOR PARENTS, I GET A
LOT OF REQUESTS TO GO DO TALKS
FOR PARENTS WHO WANT TO KNOW,
WHAT IS MY KID DOING ONLINE?
WHAT IS THIS APP ALL ABOUT?
WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DANGERS AND
THINGS THAT I NEED TO BE AWARE
OF?
AND HOW CAN I HELP?
HOW DOES MY KID REPORT THIS
ONLINE?
WHAT DO THEY DO WHEN THESE, YOU
KNOW, HARMFUL THINGS ARE
HAPPENING ONLINE, OR IF MY CHILD
IS THE ONE INFLICTING THE HARM?
SO FOR ME THAT'S THE BIGGEST
TAKE-AWAY IS MAKING SURE THAT
PIECE, THAT EDUCATION PIECE, IS
HAPPENING ALL THE WAY
THROUGHOUT, AND ALSO THAT
PARENTS ARE GETTING THE
EDUCATION ON THEIR CHILD'S
DIGITAL LIVES.

Steve says TAKE THE PHONE AWAY
MORE, EH?

Annalisa says TAKE THE
PHONE AWAY, ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK WE ALL NEED TO ENGAGE
OUR PARTNERS AND TO HELP SUPPORT
AND RESOURCE... IT'S NOT JUST
SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE AT
THE SCHOOL LEVEL.
I THINK THAT YOU NEED TO TAKE A
LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THE SCHOOL
LIAISON OFFICERS, COMMUNITY
PARTNERS, BOARD PSYCHOLOGISTS,
SOCIOLOGISTS, ALL OF THE
DIFFERENT RESOURCES THAT WE
HAVE, WE HAVE TO TRY TO WORK
COLLABORATIVELY TO COME UP WITH
SOLUTIONS THAT ARE BEST FOR
EVERYONE INVOLVED.
IT CANNOT BE JUST... YOU KNOW,
WE TALK ABOUT THE SCHOOL BOARD
BEING, YOU KNOW, NOT DOING
ENOUGH, BUT IT CANNOT BE JUST
ONE ISSUE.
I THINK THAT WE ALL NEED TO BE
INVOLVED IN COMING UP WITH SOME
IDEAS AND SOLUTIONS ON HOW THIS
CAN BE EFFECTIVE, INCLUDING THE
GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING PUTTING
THE RESOURCES EXACTLY WHERE WE
NEED THEM TO SUPPORT THIS ISSUE.

Steve says JULIE, ONE THING
YOU'D LIKE TO SEE CHANGE THAT
WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

Julie says TO HAVE
MORE PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT TO
HELP TAKE SOME OF THIS HEAT AND
RESPONSIBILITY OFF THE SCHOOL
BOARD'S SHOULDERS AND TO HELP
THE PARENTS LEARN THAT IT'S NOT
JUST THE TEACHERS'
RESPONSIBILITY OR JUST THE
SCHOOL'S RESPONSIBILITY OR JUST
THE PRINCIPAL'S RESPONSIBILITY.

Steve says ALL HANDS ON DECK.

Julie says ALL HANDS ON DECK.
IT'S GOING TO TAKE ALL OF US AND
WE ALL NEED TO LEARN AS MUCH AS
WE CAN AND NOT HAVE THIS
RESISTANCE AND TO WORK TOGETHER.

Steve says CLAIRE, LAST WORD TO
YOU.

Claire says YES.
SO ALL THESE MESSAGES INTO ONE.
THAT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO PLAY A
ROLE.
THEY NEED TO UNDERSTAND THEIR
ROLE.
THEY NEED THE RESOURCES AND
SKILLS TO BE ABLE TO DO IT,
INCLUDING CORPORATIONS, WHICH WE
DIDN'T TALK ABOUT.
FACEBOOK HAS A ROLE IN THIS,
RIGHT?
SO I THINK HAVING THAT CLEAR
GOAL... YOU KNOW, WHAT GERALD
SAID, THAT REALLY, WE CAN'T
PRETEND TO BE SURPRISED THAT
WE'RE SEEING THIS BEHAVIOUR AND
SEE THIS CHILD BEHAVIOUR WHEN
IT'S BEING MODELLED AND
REINFORCED AT ALL LEVELS
CIVICALLY.
THERE'S A MUCH BIGGER SOCIAL
JUSTICE PIECE TO THIS AS WE
THINK ABOUT WHAT WORLD WE'RE
CREATING FOR OUR KIDS AND WHAT
WE WANT TO MODEL FOR THEM ON A
DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Katie O'Connor, @KA_OConnor."

Steve says SHELDON, WOULD YOU
PUT ALL GUESTS ON THE SCREEN SO
I CAN THANK THEM ALL AT ONCE.
FROM TOP LEFT AND GOING AROUND
IN CLOCK WISE ORDER, CLAIRE
CROOKS, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRE
FOR SCHOOL MENTAL HEALTH AT
WESTERN UNIVERSITY.
ANNALISA VARANO FROM THE
CATHOLIC PRINCIPALS COUNCIL
ONTARIO.
JULIE SCHAAFSMA A PARENT IN THE
HAMILTON WENT WORTH DISTRICT
SCHOOL BOARD.
SHE CO-FOUNDED THE GROUP VOICES
AGAINST BULLYING.
KATIE COLE FROM THAMES VALLEY
DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD.
GERALD WALTON PROFESSOR OF
LAKEHEAD UNIVERSITY -
RESEARCHING IN VIOLENCE AND
EQUITY IN SCHOOLS.
IT'S GREAT OF ALL OF YOU TO COME
ONTO TVO TONIGHT AND SHARE YOUR
EXPERTISE WITH US.
THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: A Better Way to Battle Bullying