Transcript: An Indigenous Stake in Energy | Dec 03, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted brown tie.

A caption on screen reads "An indigenous stake in energy. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says PIPELINES MEAN SERIOUS
POLITICS FEDERALLY, BUT ALSO
LOCALLY.
AND IN INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES
KEEN FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT,
OPPORTUNITIES
AND
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION, IT'S A POTENT MIX
THAT CAN BE COMPLICATED.
WITH US NOW TO HELP SORT IT ALL
OUT:
DELBERT WAPASS, FORMER CHIEF,
THUNDERCHILD FIRST NATION AND
HEAD OF PROJECT RECONCILIATION,
ONE OF THREE INDIGENOUS BIDS FOR
THE TRANS MOUNTAIN PIPELINE...

Delbert is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a checkered burgundy shirt, and a colourful threaded neckpiece.

Steve continues BRIAN SCHMIDT, PRESIDENT AND CEO
OF TAMARACK VALLEY ENERGY...

Brian is in his seventies, clean-shaven, with straight gray hair. He's wearing a blue suit and a patterned blue shirt.

Steve continues SHANNON JOSEPH, VICE-PRESIDENT
OF GOVERNMENT RELATIONS AND
INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS AT CAPP, THE
CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF
PETROLEUM PRODUCERS...

Shannon is in her early forties, with chin-length curly dark hair. She's wearing a black blazer and a printed red blouse.

Steve continues AND KELSEY LEONARD, WHO HOLDS
THE BANTING POSTDOCTORAL
FELLOWSHIP AT McMASTER
UNIVERSITY, RESEARCHING WATER
JUSTICE FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
IN THE FACE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

Kelsey is in her late twenties, with long straight black hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a black shirt, and a wooden pendant necklace.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU
ALL TO OUR PROGRAM HERE TONIGHT,
AND I GUESS I SHOULD SAY BEFORE
WE GO ANY FURTHER, WE WANT TO
THANK THE CANADIAN ENERGY, THE
ENVIRONMENT AND INDIGENOUS
PROSPERITY CONFERENCE THAT'S
BEEN HAPPENING AT THE MUNK
SCHOOL OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS AND
PUBLIC POLICY WHICH HAS
ESSENTIALLY BROUGHT ALL OF YOU
TO OUR CAPITAL CITY IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO FOR THIS
CONVERSATION.
DELBERT, WHAT IS PROJECT
RECONCILIATION?

The caption changes to "Delbert Wapass. Project Reconciliation."

Delbert says WELL,
PROJECT RECONCILIATION IS A
VEHICLE WHERE I DEVELOPED A
COMPANY TO DEAL WITH THE
SOCIOECONOMIC AND THE ECONOMIC
SITUATIONS WITHIN OUR RESPECTIVE
COMMUNITIES.
IT'S A WAY OF ECONOMIC
RECONCILIATION.
THE FACT THAT WE'VE BEEN
ECONOMICALLY STARVED OUT, YOU
KNOW, ALL THESE YEARS, HAS, YOU
KNOW, LED US INTO POVERTY.
WE BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE
HAS TO BE ALTERNATIVE WAYS OF
REALIZING A BETTER TODAY AND
TOMORROW FOR OUR CHILDREN AND
THOSE THAT AREN'T BORN.
SO IT'S BRINGING NATIONS RIGHT
ACROSS FROM SASKATCHEWAN,
ALBERTA, AND BRITISH COLUMBIA
AND THE OTHER 340 NATIONS.

Steve says 340 FIRST NATIONS.

The caption changes to "The road to self-determination?"

Delbert says 340 FIRST NATIONS.
HOPEFULLY WE CAN GET THEM
ONSIDE, YOU KNOW, TO GET AWAY
FROM THE HAVES AND HAVE-NOTS
AMONG FIRST NATIONS COMMUNITIES
THAT HAVE MONEY AND THOSE THAT
DON'T, NOT ASKING FOR ANY MONEY
FROM ANY FIRST NATION, BUT THE
OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO SIGN THE
DECLARATION OF SUPPORT SO WE CAN
MOVE ON AND PURCHASE 51 percent OF THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PIPELINE.

Steve says GOTCHA.
SHANNON, MAYBE YOU COULD FOLLOW
UP ON THAT.
HOW MANY COMPANIES AND-OR
INDIGENOUS GROUPS ALTOGETHER TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE ARE BIDDING ON
THE TRANS MOUNTAIN PIPELINE?

The caption changes to "Shannon Joseph. Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers."

Shannon says THERE ARE
THREE DIFFERENT BIDS AT THIS
TIME FROM INDIGENOUS GROUPS.
I DON'T THINK THERE ARE ANY
COMPANIES I KNOW OF RIGHT NOW.
THERE ARE CERTAINLY A LOT OF
SHIPPERS.
PRODUCERS WHO ARE MEMBERS OF
MINE ARE EXCITED FOR THE PROJECT
TO BE BUILT AND WOULD WELCOME,
YOU KNOW, ANY INDIGENOUS OWNERS
IN THE PIPELINE.
I THINK IT'S A POSITIVE THING.
LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED.

A map of western Canada appears briefly on screen with the title "Trans mountain expansion project." The pipeline appears marked in yellow, connecting Vancouver with the U.S.A., and also with Edmonton.

Steve says HERE'S, BRIAN, THE
64,000 dollar QUESTION, WHICH IS WHY
DOES INDIGENOUS OWNERSHIP OF THE
TRANS MOUNTAIN PIPELINE MATTER
AT ALL ANYWAY?

The caption changes to "Brian Schmidt. Tamarack Valley Energy."

Brian says WELL, IT
MATTERS BECAUSE I THINK IT PUTS
A VERY POSITIVE LIGHT ON
INDIGENOUS RELATIONS WITH
INDUSTRY, THE FACT THAT WE'RE
GOING TO BE IN PARTNERSHIP
TOGETHER, THE FACT THAT SHIPPERS
ARE WILLING TO SIGN AGREEMENTS
WITH PROJECT RECONCILIATION OR
THE OTHER TWO.
IT'S A BIG STEP.
AND I THINK THE NARRATIVE ON THE
OTHER SIDE IS THE ONLY PART THAT
YOU HEAR.
SO I THINK WE IN INDUSTRY LOOK
AT THIS, OKAY, NOW WE'RE HAVING
A BALANCED CONVERSATION.

Steve says WHAT'S THE NARRATIVE
ON THE OTHER SIDE YOU'RE
REFERRING TO?

Brian says ANTI-PIPELINE.
LET'S KEEP IT IN THE GROUND AND
NOT BUILD IT AT ALL.

Steve says GOTCHA.
OKAY.
KELSEY, YOUR VIEW ON THE
INDIGENOUS OWNERSHIP ANGLE OF
THIS WHOLE THING?

The caption changes to "Kelsey Leonard. McMaster University."

Kelsey says WELL, I
THINK THROUGH THE U.N.
DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, WE ARE
SOVEREIGN NATIONS AND WE HAVE A
RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION.
BUT WITHIN THAT, WE ALSO NEED TO
ENSURE THAT FREE, PRIOR, AND
INFORMED CONSENT IS BEING MET
THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE
PROCESS.

Steve says AND THE COURTS HAVE
INSISTED ON THAT.

Kelsey says THEY HAVE.
AND YET WE'RE STILL SEEING A
FAILURE FOR ENFORCEMENT AND
IMPLEMENTATION OF THOSE RULINGS.

Steve says BUT IF INDIGENOUS
GROUPS ARE PART OF THE OWNERSHIP
OF THE THING, I MEAN, DOES THAT
NOT SATISFY THE NEED TO CONSULT?

Kelsey says WELL, I THINK IT'S ALSO A
QUESTION OF PROPORTIONALITY.
WE HEARD THAT THERE ARE THREE
POTENTIAL INDIGENOUS GROUPS THAT
HAVE PUT IN A BID, BUT HOW MANY
BIDS TOTAL HAVE BEEN PUT IN FOR
THE PIPELINE?
WHAT DOES THAT THREE-BID... WHAT
DO THEY REPRESENT IN TOTALITY OF
THE OVERALL BIDS THAT HAVE BEEN
PUT FORWARD?

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR CONCERN.

Kelsey says THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE STILL A
SMALL FRACTION OF THE
REPRESENTATION OF THE BIDS THAT
ARE GOING IN.
THAT WE MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY BE
COMPETITIVE FOR THOSE BIDS.
THAT WE'RE SORT OF TOKENIZED
ONCE MORE IN THE PROCESS.

Steve says SHANNON, WHAT'S THE
STATUS ON THAT?

The caption changes to "Shannon Joseph, @ShannonAJ1."

Shannon says I'M NOT
AWARE THAN THE THREE BIDS FOR
THE PURCHASE OF THE PIPELINE.
I KNOW THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS
INTERESTED IN SELLING THE
PIPELINE, BUT THERE AREN'T OTHER
BUYERS, TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

Steve says DELBERT, TO THE BEST
OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DO YOU EXPECT
ANY OTHERS TO GET INTO THE
BIDDING WAR?

The caption changes to "Delbert Wapass, @Dwapass."

Delbert says I THINK AS
TIME GOES ON AND... THE
INDICATOR IS THAT IT'S GOING TO
TAKE 30 MONTHS TO BUILD.
I THINK THAT THERE'S PROBABLY
SOME COMPANIES OR OTHER GROUPS
THAT ARE WAITING IN THE WEEDS
FOR IT TO BE BUILT AND THEN
COMING OUT.
BUT AS OF NOW, THERE'S ONLY
THREE.
YOU KNOW, THREE OF US THAT ARE
INTERESTED IN MOVING FORWARD.
HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE
PEMBINA THAT BOUGHT THE
TRANS MOUNTAIN INTERESTS OR
KINDER MORGAN INTERESTS WITHIN
CANADA.
SO, LIKE, ARE THEY INTERESTED AT
THE END OF THE DAY IN BUYING IT,
RIGHT?
SO, YOU KNOW, SO AGAIN, YOU
KNOW, AS PROJECT RECONCILIATION,
YOU KNOW, WE'RE INTERESTED IN
PURCHASING IT NOW AS OPPOSED TO
30 MONTHS DOWN THE ROAD.

Steve says KELSEY, IF IT TURNS
OUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S
ONLY THREE BIDS AND THEY'RE ALL
INDIGENOUS-BACKED BIDS, DOES
THAT SATISFY YOUR CONCERNS?

The caption changes to "Kelsey Leonard, @KelseyTLeonard."

Kelsey says WELL, I
THINK IT'S FOR THOSE PARTICULAR
INDIGENOUS COALITIONS TO
DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S A GOOD
BUY, IF IT'S ACTUALLY A GOOD
DEAL.
I THINK THERE'S ALSO LARGER
CONCERNS THAT THOSE PARTICULAR
INDIGENOUS COALITIONS PURCHASING
OR POTENTIALLY PUTTING IN A BID
FOR PURCHASING DO NOT ACTUALLY
REPRESENT THE INDIGENOUS NATIONS
AND TERRITORIES THAT MAY BE
IMPACTED BY THE PRODUCTION,
EXTRACTION, AND SHIPPING OF OIL.

Steve says BRIAN, DO YOU THINK
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS SO
COCKED THIS ONE UP THAT IT'S
SCARING OFF ANY OTHER PRIVATE
SECTOR INTERESTS THAT WANT TO
BID ON THIS PIPELINE?

Brian says I THINK A
LOT OF PRIVATE SECTORS FEAR
INVESTING IN PIPELINES IN
CANADA.
I THINK THERE'S A NUMBER OF
PIPELINES, IF YOU TAKE GATEWAY,
THERE WAS AN INVESTMENT OF ABOUT
600 MILLION Dollars JUST TO GET TO THE
STAGE OF WHERE YOU GOT YOUR
PROJECT APPROVED.

Steve says WHO WAS THAT BY
AGAIN?

Brian says NORTHERN GATEWAY.
THAT WAS ENBRIDGE.

Steve says ENBRIDGE, OKAY.

Brian says SO THAT'S A VERY PAINFUL
PROCESS.
SO TO GET TO THE END AND THEN
HAVE THE... HAVE IT PULLED FROM
YOU.
AND IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE,
THERE WAS NO CONSULTATION BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO TALK TO
FIRST NATIONS WHO WERE PRO AND
SUPPORTIVE OF THAT.
IN FACT, THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY
FOR AROUND 30 percent OWNERSHIP IN THAT
PIPELINE.
NO CONSULTATION BEFORE THE RUG
WAS PULLED FROM THEM.
SO WE JUST SEE THAT AS
TWO-SIDED.
WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL THE
CONSULTATION AND HALF A BILLION
DOLLARS TO GET READY.
EVERYTHING ALL SIGNED UP.
BUT YET SOMETHING CAN BE
CANCELLED AT NO NOTICE.

Steve says LET'S BRING UP SOME
NUMBERS HERE, ACTUALLY.
I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT
MAYBE NOT... WHILE WE CERTAINLY,
IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO,
UNDERSTAND THE ROUGH TIMES THAT
OIL AND GAS HAVE GONE THROUGH IN
WESTERN CANADA, WE MAY NOT BE AS
UP ON THE NUMBERS AS YOU FOLKS
AROUND THIS TABLE ARE.
LET'S, IF WE CAN, SHELDON, BRING
THIS GRAPHIC UP AND I'LL
DESCRIBE THIS IN SOME DETAIL FOR
THOSE LISTENING ON PODCAST.
HERE'S THE CANADIAN OIL AND GAS
SECTOR.
THIS IS BY EXTRACTION.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Canadian Oil and Gas extraction by numbers. 2018."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
TOTAL REVENUE IN THE YEAR 2018
NOW, LAST YEAR, TOTAL REVENUE
ROSE TO 123.5 BILLION DOLLARS.
TOTAL EXPENSES ROSE TO
137.4 BILLION DOLLARS.
THAT'S 25.6 percent UP OVER THE
PREVIOUS YEARS.
NET LOSSES, 13.9 BILLION DOLLARS.
ROYALTY PAYMENTS ROSE TO
7.6 BILLION DOLLARS, THAT'S UP 14.4 percent
FROM 6.6 BILLION DOLLARS IN 2019.
THAT'S A LOT OF NUMBERS THERE.
BRIAN, MAYBE YOU CAN SORT OF, AS
WE SAY, FUN WITH DICK AND JANE
FOR US.
WHAT DO THOSE NUMBERS TELL YOU?

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Brian says OVERALL THE
INDUSTRY IS CONTRACTING.
YOU KNOW, I THINK IN THE PAST
PROBABLY FIVE COMPANIES IN THE
PAST MONTH HAVE GONE BANKRUPT.
THE JUNIOR SECTOR IS PRETTY MUCH
WIPED OUT.
THERE USED TO BE ABOUT 94
PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANIES ON THE
TSX EXCHANGE.
NOW THERE'S ABOUT 24.
SO THERE'S BEEN A HUGE REDUCTION
IN THAT.
SO THESE NUMBERS DON'T SURPRISE
ME.
IT'S PRETTY TOUGH THERE RIGHT
NOW.

Steve says WELL, IF THAT'S THE
CASE, DELBERT, WHY EXACTLY ARE
YOU SO EITHER ENCOURAGED OR
INTERESTED IN DOING BUSINESS IN
A SECTOR THAT IS CONTRACTING AND
SHEDDING JOBS?

The caption changes to "Delbert Wapass. Thunderchild First Nation."

Delbert says I THINK,
YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT
PIPELINES, YOU KNOW, INDIGENOUS
OWNERSHIP I BELIEVE WILL HELP
MITIGATE A LOT OF THE... YOU
KNOW, A LOT OF THE PROBLEM THAT
IS OUT THERE.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S
HIGH TIME THAT FIRST NATIONS
PEOPLE, INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, BE
INCLUDED, YOU KNOW, IN THIS.
BUT GOING BACK TO KELSEY'S
POINT, YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT THE LAND, THAT THE
ENVIRONMENT AND, YOU KNOW, THE
LAND, AIR, AND WATER ARE ALL
PROTECTED AND ALL LOOKED AFTER.
YOU KNOW, FIRST AND FOREMOST,
THAT'S OUR POSITION, YOU KNOW,
AS PROJECT RECONCILIATION, IS TO
ENSURE THAT.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ECONOMY
AND ENVIRONMENT HAVE TO BE AT
OPPOSING ENDS, YOU KNOW?
I THINK THAT WE'VE ALWAYS LIVED
IN THAT BALANCE.
SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT, YOU
KNOW, THIS OPPORTUNITY THAT
EXISTS, THE NUMBERS THERE...
YEAH, THERE ARE COMPANIES THAT
ARE LEAVING.
BUT THERE ARE ALSO... YOU KNOW,
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT
THE SHIPPERS NEED TO SHIP THEIR
OIL, YOU KNOW?
THEY'VE GOT TO GET THEIR OIL TO
TIDE WATER, RIGHT?
AND SO THAT'S THE REALITY.
SO THE PIPELINE IS GOING TO
PROVIDE THE MEANS TO THAT,
RIGHT?
AND IT'S ALSO GOING TO PROVIDE
THE MEANS FOR INDIGENOUS
PEOPLES, YOU KNOW, TO AT LEAST
CREATE AN ECONOMIC, YOU KNOW,
OPPORTUNITY FOR THEMSELVES TO
REALIZE SOMETHING BETTER WHICH
IS, YOU KNOW, WORKING TOWARDS
CLEAN TECH, GREEN ENERGY, AND SO
ON AND SO FORTH.
RIGHT NOW WE CAN'T HAVE THOSE
CONVERSATIONS.

Steve says CAN YOU PUT SOME
NUMBERS ON THOSE?
WHAT KIND OF ECONOMIC BOOST
COULD THIS BE FOR THE NATIONS
YOU REPRESENT?

Delbert says AGAIN, WE'RE NOT PRIVY TO THE
INFORMATION, TO THE ACTUAL
INFORMATION, YOU KNOW, WHAT
THE... THE COSTS FOR SHIPPERS
AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.
BUT BASED ON WHAT IS PUBLIC
KNOWLEDGE IN OUR RESEARCH, WE'RE
ESTIMATING IT'S ANYWHERE FROM
250 MILLION DOLLARS TO 270 MILLION DOLLARS A
YEAR ON 51 percent OWNERSHIP, RIGHT?
SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THAT AND
WE LOOK AT ESTABLISHING WHAT WE
REFER TO AS THE SOVEREIGN WEALTH
FUND, YOU KNOW, AND CONTRIBUTING
200... YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON
WHAT THE SHAREHOLDERS, WHICH IS
REPRESENTATIVE OF THE 340
NATIONS OR THOSE THAT WANT TO BE
PART OF THAT, HOW MUCH OF THAT
SHOULD GO TO SOVEREIGN WEALTH?
TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TAKE
200 MILLION DOLLARS AND YOU LEVERAGE
THAT INTO A BILLION DOLLAR FUND,
YOU'RE NOW INVESTING AND
CREATING OPPORTUNITIES WITHIN
INFRASTRUCTURE OPPORTUNITIES
WHERE THE MAJORITY ARE ON YOUR
TRADITIONAL TERRITORY OR IN YOUR
RESERVE, RIGHT?
AND SO OUR P3 PROJECTS.
SO YOU'RE LEVERAGING YOURSELF
OUT OF POVERTY INTO WEALTH.

Brian says LET ME PUT INTO CONTEXT THE
NUMBERS THAT YOU REFER TO THERE
AND WHAT'S HAPPENING.
BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL
THAT THE OIL BUSINESS IS TOUGH
BECAUSE OF LOW OIL PRICE AND
THAT'S NOT THE TRUTH.
SO IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS
THERE, BRENT PRICING YESTERDAY
WAS 63.88.
AND WESTERN CANADIAN SELECT WAS
33.
SO THAT'S HOW MUCH DISCOUNTING
IS HAPPENING TO CANADIAN OIL.

Steve says THAT'S A BIG GAP.

Brian says SO OUR BUSINESS WOULD BE
ROBUST, HEALTHY, THRIVING IF WE
HAD NOT BEEN DISCOUNTED BY
AMERICAN PRODUCERS OF OUR CRUDE.

Steve says WHAT'S WEST DECKED
INTERMEDIATE GOING AT NOW?

Brian says WEST TEXAS WOULD BE ABOUT 57.

Steve says STILL A GAP.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Brian says STILL A HUGE GAP.
THE DISCOUNT IN CANADIAN SUPPLY
IS WHAT'S CAUSING THE HARDSHIP
AND BANKRUPTCIES.
NOW, IF WE PARTNER WITH PIPELINE
COMPANIES TO GET OUR PRODUCT TO
EXPORT, THAT'S WHY WE'RE SO
EXCITED IN WORKING WITH PEOPLE
SUCH AS DELBERT, BECAUSE THAT
HAS A CHANCE TO REALLY CLOSE
THAT GAP.

Steve says GOTCHA.
SHANNON, YOU WANTED TO SAY?

Shannon says I WAS JUST
GOING TO CLARIFY THAT THAT GAP
IS GIVEN BY A LACK OF TAKEAWAY
CAPACITY.
WE HAD EXPECTED AS AN INDUSTRY
TO HAVE KEYSTONE XL, WE THOUGHT
THERE WAS GOING TO BE A NORTHERN
GATEWAY, THERE WAS GOING TO BE A
TRANS MOUNTAIN PIPELINE
EXPANSION, THERE WAS GOING TO BE
A LINE 3 EXPANSION AND A LOT OF
THESE PRODUCTS HAVE BEEN STALLED
FOR VARIOUS REASONS IN THE CASE
OF NORTHERN GATEWAY, CANCELLED.

Steve says YOU CAN'T BLAME
TRUDEAU FOR KEYSTONE XL.
THAT WAS OBAMA.

Shannon says THE REALITY IS THIS TAKEAWAY
CAPACITY IS THE CONSTRAINT.
WHEN YOU ASK, IS THIS A GOOD
PURCHASE?
AS WE ACCESS MARKETS, WE ACCESS
BETTER PRICES, AND IT BECOMES A
GOOD BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY,
CERTAINLY OF BENEFIT TO OUR
MEMBERS.

Kelsey says THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH THAT,
THOUGH, I HEAR CONSTRAINT, THESE
CONSTRAINTS OF BEING ABLE TO
TAKE AWAY KEYSTONE XL, LINE 3,
YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT
ROUTES.
THE CONSTRAINT IS THE RIGHTS OF
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THE RIGHTS OF
INDIGENOUS NATIONS.
WE ARE THE ONES ON THE FRONT
LINES FIGHTING THESE PROJECTS.
IT'S NOT NECESSARILY SOME
ECONOMIC CONSTRAINT OR EVEN
BLAMING OBAMA.
OBAMA ACTUALLY RECOGNIZED
INDIGENOUS RIGHTS IN THAT
PARTICULAR SCENARIO AND THE
RIGHTS OF COMMUNITIES OF COLOUR,
POOR COMMUNITIES WHO ARE
DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED BY
THESE PIPELINES.
THE PROBLEM COMPANIES SHOULD BE
ASKING WHY ARE YOU ROUTEING IT
THROUGH DISPROPORTIONATELY
COMMUNITIES OF COLOUR AND WHO
HAVE LESS LEGAL AUTHORITY AND
POWER IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

The caption changes to "One land, many nations."

Steve says IF THE ROUTE WERE
CHANGED, WOULD THAT BE MORE
SATISFACTORY?

Kelsey says I'D LIKE TO SEE IT GO THROUGH
AFFLUENT AREAS IN CANADA AND THE
UNITED STATES.
MAYBE IT WOULD CHANGE A LITTLE
BIT.
MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR TAKE
AWAY ROUTES.

Steve says DOES SHE HAVE A
POINT THERE?

Shannon says IF YOU LOOK AT THE NORTHERN
GATEWAY PROJECT, THAT WAS A
PROJECT WHERE A THIRD OF THE
ASSETS WERE GOING TO BE OWNED BY
INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES.
THE PIPELINE ITSELF, THE
TERMINAL, IT WAS KIND OF NEW
FROM THAT STANDPOINT, BREAKING
GROUND, WITH THE ABORIGINAL
EQUITY PARTNERS GROUP.
IT'S TRUE THAT THE COURT CASE
WAS ABOUT CONSULTATION, AND
THAT'S BECAUSE CANADA IS
LEARNING TO GET CONSULTATION
RIGHT AND WE'VE LEARNED A LOT OF
THINGS THROUGH THESE COURT
CASES.
IN THE CASE OF LINE 3, I WAS
JUST AT A PRESENTATION YESTERDAY
THAT ENBRIDGE GAVE IN
PARTNERSHIP WITH THE LOCAL FIRST
NATIONS, TALKING ABOUT THE WORK
THEY'VE DONE TOGETHER, EDUCATING
THEIR NON-INDIGENOUS WORK FORCE
AND THEN PARTNERING ON THE LIFE
CYCLE OF THE PROJECT.
THE COURT CASES THAT ARE HOLDING
UP THAT CASE IN THE U.S. ARE NOT
INDIGENOUS-FOCUSED.
SO I THINK IT'S NOT A SIMPLE
THING TO SAY THE REASON FOR THIS
IS INDIGENOUS HOLDUP.

Steve says RIGHT.

Brian says AND I THINK
ONE IMPORTANT ASPECT THAT GETS
LOST IN ALL THIS IS THERE ARE
130 FIRST NATIONS THAT PRODUCE
OIL AND GAS AND HOW HAVE THEY
BEEN HARMED BY THE LOSS IN
REVENUES?
SO REVENUES HAVE GONE DOWN, FEES
AND ROYALTIES COLLECTED ON FIRST
NATIONS LANDS HAVE GONE DOWN
FROM 250 MILLION DOLLARS DOWN TO
50 MILLION DOLLARS.
NOW, YOU CAN SAY, WELL, IT'S
KIND OF A BIG NUMBER BUT THERE'S
NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED.
IF YOU ACTUALLY DO THE MATH, PER
FAMILY OF SIX, THEY'VE LOST
19,000 PER FAMILY.
NOW, 19,000 PER FAMILY TO ANY
CANADIAN FAMILY IS REALLY
IMPORTANT.
BUT TO FAMILIES WHO ARE FIGHTING
POVERTY, TRYING TO LIFT
THEMSELVES OUT, THESE THINGS
HAPPEN WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE.
IT'S JUST GONE.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says CAN I ASK YOU THE
FLIP SIDE OF THAT, THOUGH, WHICH
IS: WHAT DO YOU SEE AS BEING THE
PARTICULAR RISKS FOR THE
INDIGENOUS INVESTORS, WHOEVER
ENDS UP WINNING THIS PIPELINE?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Brian says THE REASON WHY THIS REALLY
WORKS IS THAT BETWEEN INDUSTRY
AND PEOPLE LIKE PROJECT
RECONCILIATION IS WE'LL SIGN
TAKE-OR-PAY CONTRACTS WITH THE
PIPELINE.
AS THE SHIPPER, WE'LL SAY OVER
THE NEXT 10 YEARS, I'M GOING TO
SHIP THIS VOLUME OF OIL.
THAT GIVES PEOPLE LIKE DELBERT
CERTAINTY WHEN THEY GO TO GET
FINANCING.
THIS HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE.
IT'S NOT NEW.

Steve says IS THAT TO SAY THAT
THERE IS MINIMAL RISK FOR HIS
INVESTORS?

Brian says THERE'S MINIMAL RISK FOR HIS
INVESTORS.

Steve says MINIMAL RISK.
DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY AS WELL?

Delbert says EXACTLY.
IT'S A WIN-WIN ALL THE WAY
AROUND.
WE'RE NOT ASKING FOR TAXPAYERS'
MONEY TO MAKE THE INVESTMENT.
TO US, YOU KNOW, IT'S
UNFORTUNATE, YOU KNOW, THAT BACK
IN... WHAT WAS IT?
'52, WHEN TRANS MOUNTAIN WAS
FIRST BUILT, THERE WAS NO
CONSULTATION, RIGHT?
YOU HAVE GRAND CHIEF STUART
PHILIP AND OUR RELATIVES, YOU
KNOW, THAT ARE BLOCKADING AND
PROTESTING THAT HAVE CREATED THE
AWARENESS AND A PLATFORM FOR
INDIGENOUS OWNERSHIP, FOR
CONSULTATION TO ENSURE THAT THIS
HAPPENS.
I DON'T TAKE ANY OF THAT AWAY.
TO ME, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE
THE PIPELINE, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE
ROUTE IS, BUT IT'S THE RESPECT,
IT'S THE RELATIONSHIP AND
UNDERSTANDING OF THAT, RIGHT?
AND HOW WE REACH OUT.
IT'S NOT... LIKE, WHEN WE LOOK
BACK TO OUR...

Steve says HANG ON A SEC.
YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MATTER TO
YOU, BUT IT MATTERS TO HER.

Delbert says IT DOESN'T.
BECAUSE IT'S ALL ABOUT ENSURING
THAT WHOEVER NEEDS TO BE SPOKEN
TO, WHOEVER NEEDS TO BE
CONSULTED IS CONSULTED.
RIGHT?
AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF THAT
RELATIONSHIP.
I THINK IAN ADDISON GETS IT NOW
WITH WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE
RELATIONSHIP WITH INDIGENOUS
PEOPLES, RIGHT?
I CAME FROM A FUNERAL, YOU KNOW,
A COUPLE DAYS AGO, A 10-YEAR-OLD
GIRL WHO HUNG HERSELF, YOU KNOW,
A SUICIDE.

Steve says WHERE?

Delbert says IN LOON LAKE, SASKATCHEWAN.
RIGHT?
AND THAT IS NOT ONLY ISOLATED TO
THAT COMMUNITY.
WE'RE ALL EXPERIENCING THAT.
BUT WE EXPERIENCE IT IN HIGH
UNEMPLOYMENT RATES, DROPOUT
RATES, LACK OF DOLLARS FOR
EDUCATION AND SO ON.
SO WHERE ARE THOSE GOING TO COME
FROM?
IF WE DON'T CREATE THE
OPPORTUNITIES THAT EXIST, BUT
NOT BEING NEGLIGENT, YOU KNOW,
ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE
LAND.
THEN WHAT ELSE THEN?
WHAT ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO?

Steve says LET ME... KELSEY,
I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THE FIRST
SHOT AT RESPONDING TO THIS.
THE YELLOWHEAD INSTITUTE IS A
THINK-TANK.
THEY HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT THE
CONVERSATION WE'RE HAVING RIGHT
NOW...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "We bought a pipeline." The quote reads "The new dynamic will also reveal the exact spot in the relationship between First Nations and Canada where the promises of Indigenous rights recognition hit the wall of the resource economy.
Immediately after the bailout, the Secwepemc Women's Warrior Society and Tiny House Warriors put out a statement that called the move 'a declaration of war' against First Nations. They pointed to Canada's pattern of criminalizing Indigenous peoples for exercising their responsibility to protect the land and water as a warning of the coming conflict."
Quoted from Kanahus Manuel and Shiri Pasternak, Yellowhead Institute. July 18, 2018.

Steve says YOU KNOW, IF THERE
IS A POTENTIAL INDIGENOUS EQUITY
STAKE IN THE PIPELINE, DO YOU
THINK THIS COULD ALLEVIATE SOME
OF THE TENSION THAT'S GOING ON
ACROSS THE COUNTRY RELATIVE TO
OTHER ISSUES AS WELL?

Kelsey says I DON'T THINK SO.
REALLY, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT...
SO, BRITISH COLUMBIA ACTUALLY
BECAME THE FIRST PROVINCE TO
PASS BILL 41, WHICH IS
IMPLEMENTATION OF THE U.N.
DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES.
THAT'S GOING TO DRAMATICALLY, I
THINK, CHANGE THE WAY IN WHICH
THIS PROCESS MOVES FORWARD.

Steve says HOW SO?

Kelsey says BECAUSE FREE, PRIOR, AND
INFORMED CONSENT.
WE TALKED ABOUT MEANINGFUL
CONVERSATION, BOTH... QUOTE,
UNQUOTE, LEGAL JARGON BY CANADA
AND THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT
AMOUNT TO FREE, PRIOR, AND
INFORMED CONSENT.
AND THE PARTICULAR IMPORTANCE OF
THE U.N. DECLARATION ON THE
RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IS
THE "S" ON THE END OF "PEOPLES."
IT'S BOTH THE COLLECTIVE RIGHTS
OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND
NATIONS BUT ALSO OF INDIVIDUAL
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES.
AND SO FREE, PRIOR, AND INFORMED
CONSENT IS FOR BOTH INDIVIDUALS
AND THE COLLECTIVE.
AND THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE THESE
WOMEN'S WARRIOR SOCIETIES AND
WARRIOR SOCIETIES ACROSS TURTLE
ISLAND, IN NORTH AMERICA,
STANDING UP AND FIGHTING FOR
THEIR RIGHTS, BECAUSE THEY DO
NOT BELIEVE THAT MEANINGFUL
CONSULTATION HAS AMOUNTED TO
THEIR CONSENT.
AND THEY HAVE NOT GIVEN THAT
CONSENT.

Steve says CANADA HAS
COMMITTED... I THINK THROUGH
BILL C-69, TO AN IMPACT
ASSESSMENT PROCESS THAT OUGHT TO
TAKE ENVIRONMENTAL
CONSIDERATIONS INTO ACCOUNT.
ARE YOU SATISFIED THAT THAT'S
GOING TO BE ATTENDED TO WELL?

Kelsey says NO.
I THINK WE ACTUALLY GLOBALLY,
BUT PARTICULARLY IN CANADA AND
THE UNITED STATES, WE NEED A
REFORM OF OUR ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT ASSESSMENT PROCESSES,
PARTICULARLY HOW THEY RELATE TO
THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY.
WE SEE A LOT OF TRIBAL NATIONS,
INDIGENOUS NATIONS, FIRST
NATIONS ACROSS CANADA AND THE
UNITED STATES, WORKING TOGETHER
TO DEVELOP OUR OWN ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT ASSESSMENT PROCESSES FOR
THESE PARTICULAR REASONS, THE
MAJORITY OF WHICH RESULT FROM
THE FACT THAT THE TOTALITY OF
THE PIPELINE IS NOT BEING
EXAMINED IN THESE ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT ASSESSMENTS.
THEY'RE VERY MUCH PIECEMEAL.
FURTHERMORE, THEY LOOK AT
WESTERN SCIENCE.
THEY DON'T PRIVILEGE OUR
TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE OR
INDIGENOUS SCIENCE IN THE
ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW PROCESS.
AND THESE ARE REALLY EASY
REFORMS THAT WE COULD BE
IMPLEMENTING TO ENSURE THAT WE
ACTUALLY ARE GETTING TO A
PROCESS OF FREE, PRIOR, AND
INFORMED CONSENT WHERE THE
INFORMATION IS ADEQUATE AND
REALLY TAPPING INTO OUR BEST
AVAILABLE SCIENCE, WHICH IS A
BLEND OF WESTERN AND INDIGENOUS.

Steve says SHANNON, DO YOU WANT
TO SPEAK TO THAT?

Shannon says ONE THING I
WOULD ADD IS THAT C-69, WHAT
WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT AS
INDUSTRY, DOES ALSO PRIORITIZE
INDIGENOUS CONSULTATION AND
ENGAGEMENT.
THERE'S A FRAMEWORK BEING LOOKED
AT RIGHT NOW FOR HOW TO
INTEGRATE INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE.

Steve says IN TOTALITY, THOUGH,
IN THE WAY THAT KELSEY SUGGESTS?

Shannon says I DON'T KNOW WHAT KELSEY
MEANS.
BUT I KNOW WHAT THE GOVERNMENT
OF CANADA IS WORKING WITH A
COMMITTEE WHICH INCLUDES
INDIGENOUS LEADERS TO LOOK AT
THIS ISSUE AND HOW TO DO IT.
SO I THINK CANADA TAKES THESE
THINGS SERIOUSLY, BUT ALSO WE
HAVE ONE OPERATING WITHIN A RULE
OF LAW FRAMEWORK THAT IS
PREDICTABLE.

Steve says LISTEN, I'M
INFERRING HERE, YOU TELL ME IF
I'M WRONG, BUT WHEN SHE IS
TALKING ABOUT TOTALITY, IT'S
THAT APPROACH TO ISSUES THAT
MAYBE IS NOT ACCOMMODATED FOR IN
C-69?

Shannon says YOU KNOW, IN C-69, THE
PROJECT STUDY... IN ITS
TOTALITY, FROM, YOU KNOW, BASED
ON WHAT THE PROJECT IS.
AND TO THE EXTENT THAT WE BECOME
BETTER AT INTEGRATING OTHER
FORMS OF KNOWLEDGE INTO THAT
ASSESSMENT, THAT'S GOING TO BE A
POSITIVE THING.
BUT THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO
WON'T BE SATISFIED BY THAT
PROCESS, POTENTIALLY, BUT I
THINK IF WE ACT IN GOOD FAITH
WORKING TOGETHER TO TRY TO DO
THESE THINGS, WE'LL GET TO A
BETTER PLACE.

Steve says DID I GET THAT
RIGHT?
WHEN YOU SAID IN TOTALITY, YOU
MEAN WHAT?

Kelsey says BOTH IN TOTALITY OF INCLUSION
OF INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE AND
SCIENCE INTO THE FULL PROCESS,
BUT ALSO IN THE TOTALITY OF THE
PROJECT.
SO THE LENGTH OF THE PIPELINE.
LOOKING AT IT ACROSS, FROM START
TO END.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE'VE
SEEN A LOT OF CONFLICT, IS WE
ARE DOING IT PIECEMEAL NOW
POTENTIALLY ADDRESSING THIS, BUT
IT'S ALL STILL POTENTIALITIES OR
EVEN THE REFERENCE TO GOOD
FAITH.
AS INDIGENOUS NATIONS AND
PEOPLE, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF LIP
SERVICE TO GOOD FAITH OVER THE
PAST FOUR CENTURIES.
THAT HASN'T VERY MUCH AMOUNTED
TO MUCH.
AND SO I THINK WE ARE LOOKING
FOR... TO STOP HAVING
COMMITMENTS OF GOOD FAITH AND TO
ACTUALLY PUT IT INTO PRACTICE.

Delbert says STEVE, I'D
LIKE TO GET INVOLVED WITH THAT.

Steve says PLEASE.

Delbert says WE HAVE A
RELATIONSHIP WITH HUSKY ENERGY.
YOU KNOW, THEY'RE... AND THAT
WAS IN GOOD FAITH.
AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT OUR
RELATIONSHIP WITH HUSKY IS TOP
NOTCH.
AND HOW THEY RESPECT, YOU KNOW,
WHAT IT IS WE HAVE TO DO AS OUR
NATION WHEN IT COMES TO
PROTOCOL, WHEN IT COMES TO
CEREMONY, WHEN IT COMES TO OUR
RELATIONSHIP, TO THE LAND, SO ON
AND SO FORTH.
YOU KNOW, IT'S... I'VE GOT TO
SPEAK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT'S
WHAT IT IS.
AND THERE ARE PROBABLY OTHER
MANY EXAMPLES OUT THERE WHERE
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES CAN TALK
ABOUT THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH
INDUSTRY AND THERE'S PROBABLY
EXAMPLES WHERE THERE'S NO
RELATIONSHIP.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE TALK
ABOUT PIPELINES, IS IT SAFER,
YOU KNOW, TO TRUCK OIL BY RAIL?
YOU KNOW, GOING THROUGH PRISTINE
TERRITORY, THROUGH THE
ROCKIES...

Steve says I THINK THE EVIDENCE
IS THAT IT'S NOT.

Delbert says EXACTLY.
AND HOW MANY OIL SPILLS HAVE THE
TRAIN CARTS TIPPED OVER?

Steve says I'VE GOT TO ASK
YOU... I HAVE TO FOLLOW UP ON...
HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF FIRST
NATIONS DID YOU SAY THAT ARE
GOING TO BE AFFECTED, 300 AND
SOME-ODD?

Delbert says 340.

Steve says 340.
DO YOU KNOW FOR A FACT THAT YOU
HAVE THE MAJORITY OF THE CHIEFS
OF THOSE 340 FIRST NATIONS ON
SIDE FOR WHAT YOU'RE PLANNING OR
THE MAJORITY OF THEIR
CONSTITUENTS?

Delbert says I THINK THAT THERE ARE A
MAJORITY, THAT WHAT DO YOU CALL,
AGREE WITH THE PIPELINE.
THOSE ARE AFFECTED RIGHT ON THE
LINE, RIGHT?
THERE ARE 122 THAT ARE AFFECTED
ON THE LINE.
122 OF THEM HAVE IBAs.

Steve says HAVE WHICH?

Delbert says IMPACT BENEFIT AGREEMENTS OR,
YOU KNOW, CLOSE TO 122, RIGHT?
SO ALL OF ALBERTA, YOU KNOW,
ARE... MOST OF ALBERTA IS
SUPPORTIVE OF IT.
MOST OF SASKATCHEWAN IS
SUPPORTIVE OF IT.
RIGHT?
AND YOU HAVE THOSE FIRST
NATIONS.
LOOK AT THE LNG PROJECT, RIGHT?
THE LNG PROJECT, HOW MANY FIRST
NATIONS HAVE SIGNED ON TO THAT,
YOU KNOW, AND WANT TO BE PART OF
THAT, RIGHT?
SO WHEN YOU START PUTTING THE
NUMBERS TOGETHER, RIGHT, THE
MAJORITY... I WOULD SAY THE
MAJORITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
BELIEVES IN PIPELINES.

Steve says WELL, THE GOVERNMENT
OF BRITISH COLUMBIA AT THE
MOMENT DOESN'T.
THEY'RE NOT A BIG FAN OF IT.

Delbert says WELL, THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT
OF BRITISH COLUMBIA.
BUT, YOU KNOW, INDIGENOUS NATIONS.
YOU KNOW?

Steve says GO AHEAD, BRIAN.

Brian says I JUST WANT
TO JUST FOLLOW UP ON, YOU KNOW,
INDIGENOUS PARTICIPATION AND WHY
DON'T WE JUST AVOID GOING
THROUGH FIRST NATIONS TERRITORY
AND PUT THEM IN OTHER AREAS.
YOU KNOW, IN MY BUSINESS, THERE
WAS A TIME WHERE WE WOULD AVOID
FIRST NATIONS' TERRITORY AND
ROUTE AROUND, NOT BOTHER.
IT WAS SEEN AS AN ISSUE.
AND I THINK THE TIMES HAVE
REALLY CHANGED.
MAYBE NOT AS MUCH IN B.C., BUT
CERTAINLY IN ALBERTA AND
SASKATCHEWAN.
YOU KNOW, WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT
THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY IN YOUR
COMMUNITY?
IF YOU LOOK AT WHO'S EMPLOYING
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THE RESOURCE
SECTOR IS EMPLOYING ABOUT 7.8 percent
OF OUR STAFF ARE INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE.
THAT COMPARES TO THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT AT 4.7 percent.
COMPARES TO THE REST OF INDUSTRY
AT 3.9.
WE'RE DOING A MUCH BETTER JOB,
EMPLOYING TWICE AS MUCH AS WHAT
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS, EVEN
THOUGH THEY'RE NATION-WIDE AND
WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT ONE
SECTOR.
THE AVERAGE INDIGENOUS
EMPLOYMENT AROUND OUR PROJECTS
IS ABOUT 98,000 PER YEAR.
TAKING PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY AND
A JOB OF 98,000.
THAT'S TWO TIMES THE SALARY OF
ALL OTHER INDIGENOUS PEOPLES.

Steve says KELSEY, IS THAT
MEANINGFUL TO YOU, THOSE NUMBERS
HE JUST GAVE?

Kelsey says I THINK
WITH THOSE NUMBERS THAT YOU JUST
GAVE, WHAT I THOUGHT OF ARE WHAT
ARE SOME OF THE COSTS WITH
BRINGING THESE TYPES OF
INDUSTRIES TO FIRST NATIONS AND
INDIGENOUS TERRITORIES?
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE CLEAR
IMAGES THAT CAME TO MY MIND AND
IN THAT MOMENT WAS MISSING AND
MURDERED INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND
THE PARTICULARITIES OF MAN CAMPS
AND THE WAY THEY PUT OUR BODIES
AS INDIGENOUS WOMEN IN JEOPARDY.
IN THE WAY WHICH THIS INDUSTRY
HAS NOT BEEN HELD
ACCOUNTABLE AS TO THE DAMAGE
IT'S CAUSED WHEN IT COMES TO THE
VIOLATION OF INDIGENOUS WOMEN
AND GIRLS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.
AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE
REALLY HAVE TO RECONCILE IF
WE'RE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD.
TO ME IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT
BRINGING JOBS BUT IT'S WHAT'S
THE SORT OF UNACCOUNTED FOR
COSTS OF THOSE JOBS AND MAYBE
IT'S NOT WORTH IT.

Steve says I THINK THAT WAS
REFERENCED IN THE MURDERED AND
MISSING...

Brian says IT'S A VERY POORLY UNDERSTOOD
STAT.
I THINK THE COMMITTEE WOULD EVEN
RECOMMENDED THAT.
AND I THINK MORE WORK SHOULD BE
DONE ON IT.
BECAUSE IN TERMS OF INDUSTRY'S
VIEW ON THAT, WE'RE ACTUALLY
DOING, I THINK, A GOOD JOB AT
LIVING PEOPLE'S STANDARDS,
BRINGING THEM UP IN THE
COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY LIVE AND
WORK.
IN MY OPINION, THE JURY'S OUT.
I THINK MORE WORK NEEDS TO BE
DONE TO STUDY THAT.
AND I WOULD ADMIT THERE ARE
PLACES WHERE WE COULD DO BETTER.
BUT FOR A LOT OF WOMEN, THAT'S
OPPORTUNITY.
IT'S JOBS THAT THEY WOULDN'T
OTHERWISE HAVE.

Delbert says BUT THE
FACT THAT WE'VE BEEN
ECONOMICALLY STARVED OUT FROM
PARTICIPATING IN THIS TYPE OF
INDUSTRY, THIS TYPE OF
OPPORTUNITY, HAS CREATED THE
POVERTY AND HAS, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S NOT ONLY MISSING AND
MURDERED INDIGENOUS WOMEN BUT
MISSING AND MURDERED INDIGENOUS
MEN.
EVERYBODY IS AFFECTED BY IT.
RIGHT?
SO THE MORE WE CREATE THE
OPPORTUNITY, THE ECONOMIC
OPPORTUNITY, YOU KNOW, THE LESS
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THOSE
SITUATIONS HAPPENING.
TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THUNDERCHILD.
IF IT WASN'T FOR THE OIL AND GAS
INDUSTRY, WE WOULDN'T BE
BUILDING A 24 MILLION DOLLAR WELLNESS
CENTRE, YOU KNOW, HOCKEY RINK
AND A FIELDHOUSE.

Steve says THIS IS YOUR FIRST
NATION.

Delbert says IT'S IN THUNDERCHILD,
SASKATCHEWAN.
IT'S THROUGH THOSE RELATIONSHIPS
WE'RE ABLE TO LEVERAGE.
WE WENT FROM, YOU KNOW, FROM
BORDERLINE THIRD PARTY
MANAGEMENT TO, YOU KNOW, AN
8 MILLION DOLLAR FARMING OPERATION,
CANNABIS OPERATION, OIL AND GAS
OPERATION AND, YOU KNOW, GETTING
INTO COMMERCIAL PROPERTY AND SO
ON AND SO FORTH.
THAT WAS FROM LEVERAGING, YOU
KNOW, FROM A SITUATION, FROM A
RELATIONSHIP INTO SOMETHING THAT
IS A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE FOR
OUR PEOPLE.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.
LET ME JUST PLAY... WE'VE GOT A
FEW MINUTES TO GO HERE.
THE FORMER CONSERVATIVE CABINET
MINISTER PETER MacKAY WAS ON
THIS PROGRAM A COUPLE OF WEEKS
AGO, I THINK, AND WE GOT ONTO
THE ISSUE OF ALL OF THIS THAT
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW.
AND I WANT TO PLAY YOU A LITTLE
SNIPPET OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY
ABOUT THAT AND GET YOUR COMMENTS
ON IT.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?

A clip plays on screen with the caption "November 20, 2019. Peter MacKay."
In the clip, Peter MacKay sits in the studio and talks to Steve.

Peter, in his fifties, clean-shaven, says ATLANTIC CANADA, WHERE I'M
FROM, WHERE WE HAVE A REFINERY.
AND WHAT ARE WE REFINING THERE,
STEVE?
WE'RE REFINING PRODUCT FROM
SAUDI ARABIA, FROM VENEZUELA,
FROM PLACES WHERE, AGAIN, WE ARE
NOT WORKING TOWARDS ANY SORT OF
GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE SOLUTION,
WE'RE SIMPLY PROPPING UP
DICTATORSHIPS AND FUNDING THEIR
VERY DIRTY OIL AND GAS
PRODUCTION.

Steve says UNETHICAL OIL, AS
SOMEONE CALLED IT.

Peter says UNETHICAL OIL.
THERE'S A MASSIVE OPPORTUNITY
HERE.
IT CAN'T BE LIP SERVICE AND
PEOPLE IN THE WEST ARE
APOPLECTIC ABOUT IT.

The clip ends.

Shannon says YALE DID THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL
PERFORMANCE INDEX I THINK IN THE
PAST YEAR AND IT SHOWED THAT
CANADA WAS NUMBER ONE OUT OF OIL
PRODUCING NATIONS IN THE WORLD
IN TERMS OF ENVIRONMENTAL
PERFORMANCE AND LEADERSHIP.
I THINK ALSO, YOU KNOW, CANADA
IS A COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE
CHILD LABOUR, THAT HAS SAFETY
STANDARDS FOR WORKERS, AND OUR
COMPANIES DON'T JUST MEET
STANDARDS, THEY TRY TO GO BEYOND
THOSE STANDARDS AND BE LEADERS
IN SAFETY.
SO THERE IS A STRONG CASE TO BE
MADE FOR THE KIND OF WORK THAT
OUR COMPANIES DO.

Steve says LET ME PUT THAT TO
KELSEY.
IF, YOU KNOW... WHO USED TO SAY?
DON'T MAKE PERFECTION THE ENEMY
OF THE GOOD?
I THINK BRIAN MULRONEY USED TO
SAY THAT.
IF OUR OIL IS, BY OBJECTIVE
STANDARDS, MORE ETHICALLY
PRODUCED, REFINED, ET CETERA,
THAN ANYBODY ELSE'S IN THE WORLD
IS, IS THAT ANOTHER ARGUMENT FOR
GETTING ON BOARD?

Kelsey says WELL, I
DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT WE
CAN SAY THAT IT IS ETHICALLY
PRODUCED OR NOT UNETHICAL.
YALE IS A VERY REPUTABLE
INSTITUTION, BUT THAT INDEX
DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING ON
INDIGENOUS RIGHTS.

Steve says THE SAUDIS WOULDN'T
EITHER OR THE VENEZUELANS
WOULDN'T EITHER.

Kelsey says ACTUALLY, VENEZUELA WOULD.
IF WE HAD AN INDEPENDENT BODY
MAYBE LOOKING THROUGH THE UNITED
NATIONS DECLARATION ON THE
RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OR
THE U.N. FORUM ON INDIGENOUS
ISSUES, OVER TIME IT'S REALLY
YALE ITSELF, IT'S A VERY GREAT
INSTITUTION, HARVARD PROJECT ON
AMERICAN INDIAN DEVELOPMENT.
WE HAVE INSTITUTIONS OUT THERE
THAT COULD DO THESE TYPES OF
STUDIES.
MAYBE YELLOWHEAD HAS IT IN ITS
FUTURE PLANS.
WE DON'T HAVE A GLOBAL STUDY
THAT LOOKS AT THE ANALYSIS OF
THE EXTRACTION OF THE FOSSIL
FUEL INDUSTRY AS IT RELATES TO
INDIGENOUS RIGHTS PER THE U.N.
DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND OUR
ACCEPTANCE OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.
I THINK RIGHT NOW, I CAN'T SAY
THAT THIS PARTICULAR TYPE OF
EXTRACTION WITHIN CANADA, AS IT
RELATES TO INDIGENOUS PEOPLES,
IS ETHICAL.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE, CAN I
GO BACK OVER HERE?
WOULD YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE
IS STILL A JOB FOR CAPP TO MAKE
OUR OIL ETHICAL RELATIVE TO
OTHER COUNTRIES EVEN THOUGH IT
MAY BE EVEN MORE ETHICAL?

Shannon says YOU KNOW,
IF WE JUST LOOK AT THE GHG
EMISSION PERFORMANCE, IF
CANADA'S STANDARDS SAY AROUND
METHANE WERE IMPLEMENTED BY
OTHER PRODUCERS AROUND THE
WORLD, THE GHG PER BARREL WOULD
DROP BY 23 percent.
THAT'S BY DOING OUR CURRENT
STANDARDS.
OF COURSE, CANADA IS GOING
BEYOND THAT TO GO 45 percent BELOW
WHERE THEY ARE.
SO, SURE, THERE'S MORE WORK TO
BE DONE AND WE ARE PURSUING THAT
WORK AND WE ARE PURSUING, YOU
KNOW, ON THE INDIGENOUS FRONT,
PARTNERSHIPS, RELATIONSHIPS, AND
BRIAN CAN TALK ABOUT THE WORK
THAT HE HAS DONE, DELBERT CAN
TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIPS
HE'S HAD WITH SOME OF OUR
COMPANIES.
THERE'S ALWAYS WAYS TO BE
BETTER.
BUT I THINK WE ARE LEADERS IN
THE WORLD AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU
COMPARE US TO OTHER COUNTRIES,
VENEZUELA'S INDUSTRY HAS
COLLAPSED AND TO THE EXTENT THAT
THEY PAY LIP SERVICE TO
INDIGENOUS RIGHTS, I'M SURE
THOSE INDIGENOUS VENEZUELANS ARE
STARVING ALONGSIDE THE OTHER
VENEZUELANS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas; Producer: Liane Kotler, @LianeKotler."

Steve says I'M AFRAID THAT'S
OUR TIME, EVERYBODY.
WE'RE GRATEFUL YOU COULD SPARE
SOME TIME FROM YOUR CONFERENCE
TO COME TO OUR STUDIO AND SHARE
YOUR VIEWS ON THIS.
KELSEY LEONARD, BRIAN SCHMIDT,
DELBERT WAPASS, AND SHANNON
JOSEPH.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING UP TO
TVO TONIGHT.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: An Indigenous Stake in Energy