Transcript: Highways and our Transportation Future | Nov 27, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped lilac tie.

A caption on screen reads "A new highway for the GTA? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE FORMER ONTARIO
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT CANCELLED A
PLAN FOR A GTA WEST HIGHWAY.
BUT THE IDEA FOR A NEW LINK
BETWEEN HIGHWAY 400 IN VAUGHAN,
AND HIGHWAY 407 NEAR MILTON, IS
BACK, UNDER THE CURRENT PC
GOVERNMENT, WHICH CALLS IT AN
IMPORTANT PIECE OF
TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE.
CRITICS, HOWEVER, SAY THAT IT'S
AN OUTMODED APPROACH.
WITH US NOW ON WHAT NEW ROAD
PROJECTS SUCH AS THIS ONE NEED
TO DO, AND ANTICIPATE, OVER THE
LONG TERM, WE WELCOME:
JANE FOGAL, COUNCILLOR FOR THE
TOWN OF HALTON HILLS AND A
MEMBER OF HALTON REGIONAL COUNCIL...

Jane is in her sixties, with short, wavy gray hair. She's wearing a blue blazer and a patterned blue scarf.

Steve continues TODD LETTS, CEO OF THE BRAMPTON
BOARD OF TRADE...

Todd is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short, receding brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt and spotted blue tie.

Steve continues TERESA Di FELICE, ASSISTANT VICE
PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AND
COMMUNITY RELATIONS FOR CANADIAN
AUTOMOBILE ASSOCIATION OF
SOUTH CENTRAL ONTARIO...

Teresa is in her late forties, with long straight chestnut hair and bangs. She's wearing a magenta blazer and a black shirt.

Steve continues AND STEVEN FARBER, ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
HUMAN GEOGRAPHY AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO SCARBOROUGH.

Steven Farber is in his late thirties, with short curly dark hair and a reddish boxed beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray plaid suit and a blue shirt.

Steve continues IT'S GOOD TO HAVE EVERYBODY HERE
AROUND OUR TABLE TONIGHT FOR A
DISCUSSION ABOUT SOMETHING THAT
EITHER IS DESPERATELY NEEDED OR
IS A TERRIBLE IDEA, AND WE'RE
GOING TO DISCUSS IT IN THE NEXT
HALF AN HOUR.
LET'S START OFF WITH THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION FOR
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO,
CAROLINE MULRONEY, WHO HAD THIS
TO SAY ABOUT THE GTA WEST
TRANSPORTATION CORRIDOR.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?

A clip plays on screen with the caption "November 12, 2019."
In the clip, Minister of Transportation Caroline Mulroney sits on a stage next to a woman with short blond hair and speaks as in an interview. A banner behind them reads "Brampton Board of Trade."

Mulroney says IT WAS A PROMISE THAT WE MADE
DURING THE ELECTION.
THE GTA WEST CORRIDOR WE BELIEVE
IS AN IMPORTANT
TRANSPORTATION... PIECE OF
TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE
THAT'S NEEDED.
AS YOU KNOW, BECAUSE SO MANY OF
YOU LIVE IN THIS REGION,
CONGESTION IS INCREASING, AND I
THINK BY 2031, THERE WILL BE A
MILLION AND A HALF MORE DRIVERS
IN THIS AREA, WHICH IS GOING TO
ADD SOMETHING LIKE 27 MORE
MINUTES TO THE COMMUTE.
SO THERE IS A NEED FOR
ADDITIONAL TRANSPORTATION
INFRASTRUCTURE.

The clip ends.

Steve says LET'S FOLLOW THAT UP
BY JUST SHOWING YOU WHERE THIS
THING IS.

A map of Brampton and its surrounding areas appears on screen, with the GTA West route planning study area marked in green.

Steve says AGAIN, FOR PEOPLE LISTENING ON
PODCAST WHO CAN'T SEE THE MAP,
I'LL DESCRIBE IT IN SOME DETAIL.
WE'RE LOOKING AT A MAP OF THE
GREATER TORONTO AREA SORT OF
WEST OF TORONTO AND NORTH.
WE'RE TALKING NORTH OF BRAMPTON
RIGHT NOW.
IT STARTS ON JANE STREET IN THE
EAST, WHICH IS HIGHWAY 400
ESSENTIALLY, AND THERE'S A GREEN
SWATH THAT KIND OF GOES WEST AND
SOUTH, I GUESS KIND OF CROSSING
HIGHWAY 10 IN CALEDON AND
BRAMPTON, HURONTARIO STREET, AND
COMING DOWN TO HALTON REGION.
IT'S KIND OF A GREEN SWATH THAT
GOES WEST AND THEN SOUTH.
NORTH OF BRAMPTON, STILL PEEL
REGION, BUT SOUTH OF BOLTON AND
CALEDON.
AND THAT'S THE IDEA FOR THIS NEW
GTA WEST, YOU KNOW, HIGHWAY.
WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH
THAT.
TODD, START US OFF HERE.
IS THIS A GOOD IDEA TO BUILD
THIS THING?

The caption changes to "Todd Letts. Brampton Board of Trade."
Then, it changes again to "The 413."

Todd says STEVE, IT'S A VERY GOOD IDEA.
IT'S MORE THAN THAT, IT'S
ESSENTIAL.
BECAUSE I THINK IT HELPS
FAMILIES TO NAVIGATE THE
REALITIES OF MODERN LIFE IN THE
GTA.
WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS, WE'RE
WELCOMING NEW NEIGHBOURS TO THE
GTA BY THE MILLIONS, YOU KNOW,
AND IN THE NEXT 10, 11 YEARS,
WE'LL HAVE 4 MILLION PEOPLE IN
BRAMPTON.
WE WELCOME ABOUT 14,000 EACH
YEAR...

Steve says WAIT A SECOND.
DID YOU SAY 4 MILLIMETRE PEOPLE
IN BRAMPTON?

The caption changes to "Todd Letts, @BBOTCEO."

Todd says NO, 4 MILLION ACROSS THE GTA,
BUT 14,000 NEW RESIDENTS ARE
WELCOMED IN BRAMPTON EVERY YEAR.
AND THAT PUTS A STRESS ON OUR
HIGHWAYS.
IT'S A GOOD THING, THOUGH,
BECAUSE THEY'RE ALSO CONSUMERS.
THAT'S THE SECOND THING THAT'S
CHANGING.
CONSUMER BEHAVIOUR.
THE DEMAND FOR PRODUCTS AND
PRODUCTS DELIVERED TO OUR DOOR
IS ALSO VERY HIGH BECAUSE OF THE
ONLINE SHOPPING THAT...

Steve says COMMERCE.
YOU THINK A NEW HIGHWAY IS GOING
TO BE NEEDED TO DEAL WITH ALL OF
THAT.

Todd says AS WELL.
AND THEN THERE'S THE MOBILE...

Steve says DON'T GIVE ME A
HUNDRED REASONS OFF THE TOP
BECAUSE I WANT TO GET EVERYBODY
IN FIRST.
JANE, YOUR VIEW ON WHETHER THIS
IS NEEDED?

The caption changes to "Jane Fogal. Halton Hills Councillor."

Jane says WE KNOW THERE ARE TRAFFIC PROBLEMS, THERE'S NO
DOUBT ABOUT THAT, BUT IT'S
FINDING A SOLUTION FOR THEM.
BOTH HALTON HILLS AND HALTON
REGION HAVE DECLARED A
TRANSPORTATION EMERGENCY, THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
WE HAD REPORTS YESTERDAY ABOUT
JUST HOW SERIOUS THIS IS.
I WOULD SEE THIS AS POSSIBILITY
THE FIRST TEST OF OUR RESOLVE TO
VIEW EVERYTHING THROUGH A
CLIMATE LENS, AND CLEARLY A NEW
400 SERIES HIGHWAY IS ONLY GOING
TO ADD TO OUR GREENHOUSE GAS
EMISSIONS, NOT REDUCE THEM.
WE NEED A SOLUTION THAT REDUCES
THEM.

Steve says TERESA, YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Teresa Di Felice. C.A.A. Central Ontario."

Teresa says I THINK WE HAVE NUMBERS WE CAN SHARE.
CA COMMISSIONED A BOTTLENECK
STUDY.
JUST FOR THIS AREA ALONE,
SPECIFICALLY THE 400 NORTH OF
THE CITY OF TORONTO THAT SERVES
THESE AREAS AS WELL, YOU KNOW,
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 21
KILOMETRES OF HIGHWAY CAUSING
4 MILLION HOURS OF DELAY,
7.6 MILLION LITRES OF FUEL
THAT'S WASTED,
20 MILLION KILOGRAMS OF CO2
EMISSIONS THAT COULD BE SAVED IF
WE COULD GET RID OF THESE
BOTTLENECKS.
SO I THINK WE HAVE THAT LENS TO
LOOK THROUGH IS WHAT'S THE COST
OF NOT DOING IT AS WELL AS IF WE
DO IT, WHAT'S THE BENEFIT THAT
WE'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF IT AND
HOW DO WE USE HINDSIGHT FROM HOW
WE DON'T WANT THINGS BUILT TO
ACTUALLY CREATE THE RIGHT MODAL
SITUATION IN THIS SCENARIO.

Steve says STEVEN?

The caption changes to "Steven Farber. University of Toronto Scarborough."

Steven Farber says YEAH, I DON'T SUPPORT THE BUILDING OF
THE NEW HIGHWAY.
I THINK THAT ALL OF THE EVIDENCE
SHOWS THAT NEW HIGHWAYS
ENCOURAGE UNSUSTAINABLE URBAN
DEVELOPMENT, CAR-DEPENDENT
SPRAWLING NEIGHBOURHOODS WHICH
ARE UNHEALTHY, UNSUSTAINABLE,
AND ECONOMICALLY INEFFICIENT IN
THE LONG RUN.
AND I ALSO THINK THAT DECADES OF
RESEARCH AS WELL AS PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE IN THE GTA REGION
SHOWS THAT BUILDING NEW HIGHWAYS
AND EXPANDING EXISTING HIGHWAYS
DOES NOTHING TO HELP US WITH
DECREASING TRAVEL TIMES IN THE
REGION.
IN FACT, IT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE.

Steve says IT DOESN'T ALLEVIATE
TRAFFIC, IT ACTUALLY, IF YOU
BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME?

Steven Farber says EXACTLY.

Steve says THE CAA DID A REPORT
ON THE WORST BOTTLENECKS.
WHERE ARE THEY?

Teresa says THE 401
ACTUALLY HAS THE MOST
BOTTLENECKS.
WE DID A CANADIAN COMPARISON.
BUT WHAT WAS REALLY SORT OF
ALARMING FOR MOST PEOPLE WAS
THAT SOME OF OUR WORST
BOTTLENECKS HERE IN TORONTO
ALONG THE 401 IN PARTICULAR, THE
WESTERN QUARTER OF THE 401, ARE
ALSO IN THE TOP 20 IN NORTH
AMERICA, COMPARING WITH CITIES
LIKE LOS ANGELES AND NEW YORK.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says HOW CONVINCED ARE
YOU THAT IF THIS GTA WEST
HIGHWAY WERE BUILT, THAT THOSE
BOTTLENECKS WOULD BE LESSENED AS
OPPOSED TO JUST CREATING A WHOLE
BUNCH OF NEW ONES?

The caption changes to "Teresa Di Felice, @CAASCO."

Teresa says WE DID A STUDY BUT ALSO WE
TALKED ABOUT SOLUTIONS.
SO, YOU KNOW, THE POSSIBILITY OF
BUILDING ROAD INFRASTRUCTURE
SHOULDN'T BE THE MAIN SOURCE OF
SOLUTIONS FOR GETTING RID OF
GRIDLOCK.
I THINK THAT WE SUPPORT A
TRANSIT-FIRST POLICY, AND I
THINK WE'RE SEEING THAT.
THE BIG MOVE FROM METROLINX IS
REALLY SITUATED AROUND LOOKING
AT TRANSIT AS A MOST EFFECTIVE
AND EFFICIENT WAY TO MOVE PEOPLE
AROUND, AND I THINK THERE ARE
OTHER THINGS WE COULD DO.
WE TALK ABOUT AS A RESULT OF THE
STUDY OTHER SOLUTIONS LIKE
MAXIMIZING CURRENT THINGS.
HOW CAN YOU ADDRESS THE
BOTTLENECKS WITH RAMP METERING,
MAYBE WIDENING LANES OF HIGHWAY
OR BETTER EFFICIENT
FREED-THROUGHS, ENSURING THAT
MULTIMODAL MIX THAT YOU'RE
FINDING OTHER WAYS FOR PEOPLE TO
MOVE AROUND.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Teresa says A MULTIMODAL MIX, IF PEOPLE
WANT TO DO PART OF THEIR TRIP BY
TRANSIT, IF THEY'RE WALKING,
CYCLING, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE
THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS THERE FOR
ALL OF IT.
EVEN CURRENTLY WHEN WE BUILD
BICYCLE LANES, THERE IS THIS
LITTLE BIT OF WHAT WE DON'T HAVE
AS MANY CYCLISTS AS CARS ON THE
ROAD.
WE KNOW THAT WAY OF GETTING
AROUND IS GROWING, AND
THEREFORE, WE'RE BUILDING THE
FRAMEWORK FOR IT TO BE A SAFE
AND EFFICIENT WAY OF GETTING
CYCLISTS AROUND AND THAT MIXED
USE TRAFFIC.

Steve says CAN I GET THE MAP
BACK UP, SHELDON, FOR A SECOND?
I WANT TO PUT A QUESTION TO
TODD.
THERE'S THE MAP AGAIN.
BRAMPTON IS SOUTH OF WHERE THIS
NEW PROPOSED HIGHWAY WOULD GO.
SO TELL ME HOW YOU THINK
BRAMPTON'S CONGESTION AND OTHER,
YOU KNOW, DIFFICULTIES, IN TERMS
OF TRANSPORTATION, WOULD BE
ALLEVIATED BY BUILDING THIS NEW
HIGHWAY, WHICH IS FRANKLY NORTH
OF MOST OF THE CITY?

Todd says IT'S RIGHT
ALONG THE BORDER BETWEEN CALEDON
AND BRAMPTON.
THAT'S VERY STRATEGIC FOR
EMPLOYERS AND MANUFACTURERS IN
THE CITY.
IT WOULD REALLY HELP US TO GET
EMPLOYEES TO WORK ON TIME.
IT'S A VERY MOBILE LIFESTYLE
NOW.
PEOPLE DON'T ALWAYS LIVE AS
CLOSE TO THEIR WORKPLACE AS THEY
DID IN THE PAST, AND GETTING TO
WORK ON TIME, GETTING RAW
MATERIALS TO MANUFACTURERS ON
TIME SO THAT GOODS CAN BE
DELIVERED TO CUSTOMERS ON TIME
ARE VERY IMPORTANT AND THIS
HIGHWAY WILL ADD TO THE ECONOMY
SIGNIFICANTLY.

Steve says OKAY.
AGAIN, SHELDON, I'M GOING TO ASK
YOU TO BRING UP THE MAP ONE MORE
TIME, BECAUSE I WANT TO PUT A
QUESTION TO JANE FOGAL.
HALTON HILLS, SHOW US WHERE ON
THIS MAP, HOW CLOSE TO HALTON
HILLS THIS PROPOSED HIGHWAY
WOULD GO AND THE IMPACT YOU
THINK IT WOULD HAVE ON HALTON
HILLS?

Jane says WELL, IT'S IN
THE BOTTOM LEFT CORNER THERE, IS
WHERE THE HIGHWAY... IT DIVES
SOUTH TO JOIN US WITH THE
401-407 INTERCHANGE.

Steve says AND THAT'S HALTON
REGION?

Jane says YES.
HALTON HILLS IS IN HALTON
REGION.

Steve says YEAH.

Jane says SO RIGHT NOW, THAT
INTERCHANGE IS A MESS.
IT CREATES ITS OWN... ITS OWN
GRIDLOCK.

Steve says YOU'RE TALKING
401-407.

The caption changes to "Jane Fogal, @JaneFF. Halton Region Council Member."

Jane says 401-407.
NOW WE'RE GOING TO BRING ANOTHER
HIGHWAY IN THERE, 407 SERIES
HIGHWAY... HOW MANY MOVEMENTS
ARE THERE GOING TO BE?
CAN YOU GO WEST AND KEEP GOING
WEST AND GO SOUTH?
HOW DOES THAT ALL WORK?
I WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT THAT'S
GOING TO CAUSE A BIGGER
BOTTLENECK THAN THE ONE THAT WE
HAVE ALREADY.
AND REALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THIS
HIGHWAY AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY
CONCEIVED, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO GO
DIRECTLY NORTH AND JUST KEEP
GOING, NOT DO THAT DIVE DOWN.
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO CONNECT OVER
TO GUELPH AND KITCHENER, TO TAKE
THE TRAFFIC FROM GUELPH AND
KITCHENER OFF THE 401.
WELL, NOW THIS ISN'T GOING TO DO
THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL GOING
TO COME TO THAT 401-407 ON THE
401.
AND NOW WHAT DO THEY DO?
OKAY.
SO IF THEY WERE INCLINED TO TAKE
A TOLL ROAD, THEY'D TAKE THE
407.
IT'S THERE AND IT'S
UNDERUTILIZED.
OR THEY'RE NOT TAKING THE TOLL.
THEY'RE GOING TO GO 401 STILL.
NOW WE PROPOSE ANOTHER HIGHWAY
WHICH, THE ENGINEERS SUGGEST
MIGHT ALSO BE A TOLL ROAD.
IT'S TAKING YOU TO THE SAME
PLACE AS THE TOLL ROAD YOU
HAVEN'T CHOSEN BEFORE.
IT ONLY ENDS UP 10 KILOMETRES
NORTH ON THE 400.

Steve says CAN I GET STEVEN IN
ON THIS JUST ON THE NOTION OF,
YOU HAVE TWO SUPER HIGHWAYS
CONNECTING WITH EACH OTHER.
IF YOU ADD A THIRD, AND I GUESS
IT WOULD BE CALLED THE 413, IS
THAT THE IDEA?
YOU HAVE THE 401, 407, AND A
FUTURE 413 ALL COMING TOGETHER,
WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS?

The caption changes to "Steven Farber, @FarberSteven."

Steven Farber says I THINK WE
HAVE TO COME TO TERMS IN THIS
REGION ABOUT CONGESTION AND OUR
PROBLEMS WITH CONGESTION.
I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT WE WILL
NEVER ELIMINATE CONGESTION IN
THE GTA.
WE'RE TOO LARGE A CITY.
WE'RE TOO SPRAWLED AS IT IS, TOO
LOW DENSITY AS IT IS, AND
BUILDING NEW HIGHWAYS CAN NEVER
ACTUALLY SOLVE THE CONGESTION
PROBLEM BECAUSE CARS ARE
FUNDAMENTALLY AN INEFFICIENT WAY
TO MOVE MASSES OF PEOPLE
THROUGHOUT AN ENORMOUS REGION
LIKE OUR OWN.
AND I REALLY NEED TO THINK THAT
WE NEED TO STOP THINKING ABOUT
HOW WE SOLVE CONGESTION AND
INSTEAD SHIFT THE PROBLEM AND
SHIFT THE SOLUTIONS TO, HOW DO
WE MOVE MORE PEOPLE IN OUR
REGION WITHOUT THEM BECOMING THE
CONGESTION?

Steve says AND THE ANSWER TO
THAT PRESUMABLY IS MORE PUBLIC
TRANSIT.

Steven Farber says IT'S MORE PUBLIC TRANSIT,
IT'S BETTER AND MORE EFFICIENT
USE OF OUR EXISTING ROAD AND
HIGHWAY INFRASTRUCTURE... AND
I'VE GOT DETAILS FOR HOW THAT
COULD LOOK AS WELL... IT'S ABOUT
PRICING POLICIES, AND IT'S ABOUT
BETTER LAND USE AND
TRANSPORTATION INTEGRATION
POLICIES...

Steve says MEANING YOU'VE GOT
TO PAY TO USE THE ROADS?

Steven Farber says EXACTLY.

Steve says TO DRIVE ON THE ROADS?

Steven Farber says YOU SHOULD BE... YES.
RIGHT NOW ONE OF THE REASONS WHY
WE HAVE SO MUCH CONGESTION IN
OUR REGION IS THAT THE FULL COST
OF TRAVEL BY CAR IS NOT BEING
MET BY THE DRIVERS WHO ARE
MAKING THE DECISION TO DRIVE,
AND THAT LEADS TO A LOT OF
EXCESS DRIVING, AND ONE OF THE
BEST-KNOWN WAYS THAT WE CAN
SOLVE THAT PROBLEM IS BY PUTTING
A NOMINAL CHARGE ON CAR-BASED
TRIPS.

Steve says I'M SURE THE
CANADIAN AUTOMOBILE ASSOCIATION
AGREES WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says HE SAID TONGUE IN CHEEK.

Teresa says THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T HEARD
OF OBVIOUSLY IN THE PAST,
WHETHER DRIVERS SHOULD BE PAYING
MORE.
THE ARGUMENT THAT DRIVERS DON'T
PAY FOR THE ROADS.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE OTHER RESEARCH
THAT WE'VE DONE AROUND WHAT
MONEY IS COLLECTED THAT IS BORNE
BY THE DRIVER FOR THE ROADS THAT
THEY USE VERSUS THINGS LIKE, YOU
KNOW, SOME OF THE EXTERNALITIES,
LIKE IMPACT ON HEALTH CARE AND
OUR ENVIRONMENT.
BUT THEN YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT NEW
INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOW DO YOU
PAY FOR NEW INFRASTRUCTURE.
SO I WOULD SAY THAT PART OF THE
MONEY THAT'S COLLECTED FROM
DRIVERS NOW HAS GONE INTO THINGS
LIKE FUNDING THE TRANSIT NETWORK
THAT WE'RE TRYING TO BUILD.
WE KNOW THAT THERE'S NOT ENOUGH
MONEY FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE
THAT WE HAVE AND THAT WE NEED.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, WHEN IT
COMES TO TOLLS, THERE HAS TO BE
A CLEAR ARGUMENT, BECAUSE PART
OF THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE IS,
SOMETIMES WE COME OUT AND WE
HEAR THAT DRIVERS SHOULD PAY
TOLLS BECAUSE THEY'RE A BURDEN
ON THE SYSTEM.
SOMETIMES WE HEAR IT'S ABOUT
GETTING REVENUE SO WE CAN CREATE
EFFICIENCIES AND ALLEVIATE OTHER
PROBLEMS AND GO TRANSIT, AND
OTHERS TIMES IT'S JUST ABOUT
CREATING REVENUE.
AND ALL OF THOSE ARE VERY
DIFFERENT THINGS.
SOME OF THE WORK WE'VE DONE
SAID, IF YOU'RE GOING TO GO DOWN
THE ROAD OF ROAD PRICING, WE'RE
MAYBE SITTING ON THE FENCE A
LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY OR WHEN YOU
DO THAT, YOU HAVE TO BE CLEAR.
RIGHT NOW THERE'S NOT A PUBLIC
APPETITE.
THERE'S AN AFFORDABILITY ISSUE.
THERE ARE NOT ALTERNATIVES.
THE TRANSIT ISN'T THERE, IF YOU
DECIDED TO PUT A TOLL ON ALL THE
ROADS TOMORROW, HOW WOULD YOU
HANDLE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO
DECIDE TO COME OUT OF THEIR
VEHICLES, BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE
THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE
NOW.
SO THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS
THAT WE HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH IN
ORDER TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION
AND WHETHER IT'S SOMETHING THE
POLICYMAKERS WANT TO MOVE
TOWARDS.

Steve says TODD?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Todd says STEVE, I WANTED
TO TOUCH BASE ON SOMETHING JANE
SAID WITH RESPECT TO THE NEW
OPPORTUNITIES THAT THE HIGHWAY
OFFERS.
IT'S NOT GOING TO THE SAME
PLACE.
WE'RE REALLY CONNECTED
REGIONALLY NOW, OUR ACADEMIC
INSTITUTIONS, OUR MANUFACTURERS,
THE TECH HUBS AT VENTURE LABS IN
YORK REGION, TECH IN WATERLOO
REGION, AND THIS OPENS UP A
BRAND NEW SET OF OPPORTUNITIES
FOR COMPANIES, FOR STUDENTS, FOR
RESEARCHERS, TO WORK TOGETHER,
ALL ALONG THAT CORRIDOR, EVEN IN
THE NEW HUBS THAT ARE HAPPENING
IN BRAMPTON.

Steve says STEVEN?

Steven Farber says GOING BACK
TO THE CHARGING FOR OPTION.
ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS TO
SUPPORT A CONGESTION CHARGE IS
ACTUALLY SOMETHING CALLED TRAVEL
DEMAND MANAGEMENT, WHICH IS NOT
AN ARGUMENT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO
RAISE MONEY FOR CAPITAL PROJECTS
OR INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, BUT
INSTEAD THAT WE'RE TRYING TO
IMPOSE A CHARGE ON DRIVING IN
ORDER TO REDUCE THE EXCESS
DRIVING THAT CURRENTLY HAPPENS
IN OUR REGION, AND WE KNOW THAT
THERE IS A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT
SHOWS THAT THERE ARE LARGE
NUMBERS OF PEOPLE ON THE MARGIN
WHO WOULD BE SWAYED AWAY FROM
DRIVING, WHO WOULD BE ABLE TO BE
ACCOMMODATED BY TRANSIT
SOLUTIONS, CHANGING THE TIME
THAT THEY'RE PARTICIPATING IN
TRIPS...

Steve says CAN I JUST
UNDERSTAND THAT?
SO YOU MIGHT PUT A CONGESTION
CHARGE ON THE ROAD IN RUSH-HOUR
BUT NOT 1:00 IN THE AFTERNOON.

Steven Farber says IF THAT
RESULTS IN 100,000 PEOPLE
DECIDING TO TRAVEL AT 10 A.M.
INSTEAD OF 9 A.M., WE CAN HAVE
MASSIVE IMPROVEMENTS IN THE
EFFICIENCIES OF OUR ROAD SYSTEM.

Todd says WHY PENALIZE
ONTARIANS AND WHY RESTRICT THEIR
CHOICES AND OPTIONS BY NOT
HAVING A HIGHWAY?

Steven Farber says SO THAT WE DON'T...

Todd says WE NEED A
HIGHWAY AND NEW TRANSIT.
ALONG THE KITCHENER CORRIDOR, IT
IS A SOLUTION.
IT WILL BRING ANOTHER
17 MILLION dollars A YEAR FOR OUR GDP
AS WELL AS 170,000 MORE JOBS.
THAT'S PART OF THE SOLUTION
ALONG WITH A NEW GTA HIGHWAY.

Steve says WHO KNOWS WHAT THE
COST OF THIS HIGHWAY WOULD BE?
FULLY FUNDED?
WHO KNOWS?

Jane says I WAS LOOKING
IT UP AND IT'S IN THE HUNDREDS
OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A BILLION
BUT IT'S LESS THAN THAT.

Steve says I DID TOO.
LESS THAN A BILLION...

Steven Farber says I DON'T KNOW WHERE THOSE FIGURES ARE FROM.

Steve says WHAT I'M GETTING AT
IS, LET'S FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE
SAY IT'S 500 MILLION BUCKS.
IS IT THE WISEST EXPENDITURE IN
ORDER TO DO ALL THE DIFFERENT
THINGS THAT PEOPLE AT THIS TABLE
WANT TO DO.
JANE?

The caption changes to "Roadblocks."

Jane says I THINK WE'RE
IN A TRANSITION PERIOD.
WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE DO
HAVE CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUES AND
WE HAVE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT
THAT, NOT GET MOVED OVER TO,
WELL, WE'VE GOT SOME GOODS TO
MOVE, SO WE HAVE TO DO THAT.
THAT IS A SHORT-TERM SOLUTION.
YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AT L.A. AS
TO WHAT IT MEANS WITH MORE
HIGHWAYS...

Todd says JANE, I DON'T
THINK IT'S EITHER-OR.
I DON'T THINK IT'S CONVENIENCE
OR THE ECONOMY.
WE CAN BUILD ONE OF THE SMARTEST
HIGHWAYS IN NORTH AMERICA WITH
THIS...

Steve says HOW ARE YOU DEFINING
SMART?

Todd says I'M TALKING
ABOUT INTELLIGENT TRANSPORTATION
SYSTEMS, MESSAGING ON SIGNS, NEW
TECHNOLOGIES IN THE ASPHALT
THAT'S USED, LONG COMBINED
VEHICLES, ET CETERA.
WE CAN MAKE THIS AN
ENVIRONMENTALLY RESPONSIBLE
HIGHWAY AND IMPROVE OUR ECONOMY
AT THE SAME TIME.
IT'S NOT AN EITHER-OR SITUATION.

Jane says I THINK IT IS.

Steven Farber says IT SEEMS TO
ME YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE
TECHNOLOGIES THAT MAY OR MAY NOT
COME TO FRUITION OR MAY OR MAY
NOT EXIST, BUT I ABSOLUTELY
AGREE THAT WE CAN MAKE OUR
HIGHWAYS MORE EFFICIENT USING
TECHNOLOGY.
BUT WHY START WITH A NEW
CORRIDOR ON OUR URBAN-RURAL
FRINGE TO IMPLEMENT THOSE
TECHNOLOGIES?
WHY NOT START WITH THE 401 AND
THE DVP AND THE 404 AND MAKE
THOSE EXISTING PIECES OF
INFRASTRUCTURE ABSOLUTELY AS
EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE TODAY,
WITH ITS, WITH HOT LANES, HIGH
OCCUPANCY TOLLING LANES, GETTING
THEM READY FOR MORE SELF-DRIVING
TECHNOLOGIES AND THINGS LIKE
THAT, AND HAVING TRANSIT LANES
ON ALL OF THIS INFRASTRUCTURE TO
MOVE MANY MORE PEOPLE ON THE
EXISTING ROADS.
LET'S AVOID SPENDING THE
500 MILLION ALTOGETHER ON A NEW
HIGHWAY BECAUSE WE CAN MAKE OUR...

Todd says WE CAN'T BUILD
A WALL AROUND THE GTA.
WE ARE GOING TO BE ATTRACTING
4 MILLION MORE PEOPLE.
WE NEED ANOTHER HIGHWAY.

Teresa says WE HAVE
TO REMEMBER THIS CAN'T BE THE
SOLE SOLUTION.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PLANS...
THIS IS NOT A NEW PROPOSAL.
THIS HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE AND
IDENTIFIED IN A NUMBER OF
GREATER TORONTO HORSESHOE
PLANNING, IN THE BIG MOVE BY
METROLINX WHEN THAT WAS BROUGHT
TOGETHER.
SO THIS HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED A
NUMBER OF TIMES AS A NEED FOR
THE GROWING POPULATION.
AND SO I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO
THINK ABOUT IS, WHAT CAN WE TAKE
THE HINDSIGHT FROM HOW WE DON'T
WANT IT BUILT, THE WAYS OF THE
PAST, AND IF WE'RE GOING TO GO
AHEAD AND BUILD IT... RIGHT NOW
WE'RE DOING AN ENVIRONMENTAL
ASSESSMENT.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
MUNICIPALITIES AND VOICES THAT
HAVE TO COME INTO THIS DEBATE.
IF WE'RE GOING TO BUILD IT, WHAT
CAN WE LEARN ABOUT WHAT WE DON'T
WANT TO HAPPEN.
THIS ISN'T A ONE-THING SOLUTION.
THIS ISN'T THE ONLY THING THAT
NEEDS TO BE DONE.

Steve says YOU MENTIONED POPULATION.
I HAVE A GRAPHIC.
SHELDON, CAN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY
IN THE CONTROL ROOM FLIP A
SWITCH AND BRING IT UP?
BEAUTIFUL.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Brampton population from 2001 to 2016."

A line chart shows that between 2001 and 2016 the population grew from under 400000 people to over 600000, and it is forecasted to surpass 800000 people after 2036.

Steve reads data from the slate and says
THIS IS THE POPULATION FOR THE
CITY OF BRAMPTON FROM THE YEARS
2001 TO 2016 AND THEN WITH A
FORECAST 22 YEARS INTO THE
FUTURE AS WELL.
THIS IS A CITY... I HASTEN TO
REMIND EVERYBODY WHEN BILL DAVIS
WAS THE PREMIER OF ONTARIO, WAS
LESS THAN 100,000 PEOPLE, AND
NOW, AS THE YEAR 2001, IT CLIMBS
UP CLOSE TO 400,000, AND BY
2011, IT'S UP CLOSE TO 600,000,
AND THE PROJECTIONS IN THE
FUTURE HAVE THIS CITY GOING
NORTH OF 800,000 PEOPLE, MAYBE
TOUCHING A MILLION... A MILLION
PEOPLE IN BRAMPTON.
CAN YOU IMAGINE?
MAYBE BY THE YEAR 2050.
FOR THOSE ON THIS SIDE OF THE
TABLE THEN, JANE, IF THOSE
POPULATION FORECASTS ARE
ACCURATE, AND AT THE MOMENT, YOU
KNOW, THEY KIND OF SEEM TO BE,
DOES THAT HELP THEIR SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT?

Jane says WELL, NO, IT DOESN'T.
BECAUSE IF YOU COMPARE TO OTHER
CITIES IN THE WORLD... AND I WAS
JUST LOOKING AT COPENHAGEN, THAT
HAS A POPULATION OF UNDER
600,000, THEY'VE GOT A SUBWAY
SYSTEM IN THAT SIZE OF
POPULATION.
THEY JUST OPENED A NEW SUBWAY
WITH 17 STOPS ON IT.
IN TORONTO WE'RE ARGUING ABOUT
ONE OR TWO STOPS ON A SUBWAY.
THEY'RE SO MUCH FURTHER AHEAD.
AND WHEN YOU TRAVEL THE WORLD,
YOU SEE HOW POOR OUR INVESTMENT
HAS BEEN IN TRANSIT, IN PUBLIC
TRANSIT.
THEY HAVE A TRANSIT... A METRO
STOP WITHIN 650 METRES OF EVERY
STATION.
I MEAN, THE PEOPLE CAN GET TO
ONE WITHIN 650 METRES OF A
SUBWAY... NOT A BUS.
THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
AND THAT JUST OPENED IN
SEPTEMBER, THE LATEST ONE.
AND THEY'VE GOT ANOTHER ONE
HAPPENING.
THEY ARE PUTTING THE MONEY TO
TAKE THE CARS OFF THE ROAD SO
THAT THE HIGHWAYS THAT WE'VE GOT
AREN'T OVERCAPACITY.
THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH MONEY.

Steve says TERESA?

Teresa says WE
UNDERSTAND THE REGRET OF WHAT WE
DIDN'T BUILD IN THE PAST.
WE'RE ADDING MORE PLANS TO THOSE
TRANSIT LINES AND TRANSIT STOPS
TO TRY TO NOT ONLY MAKE UP FOR
LOST TIME BUT CATCH UP AND BUILD
FOR THE FUTURE.
WE KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE
THAT REGRET BECAUSE OF WHAT WE
DIDN'T DO.
THE BIG MOVE WAS NOT TO ACTUALLY
RESOLVE CONGESTION, IT WAS TO
KEEP AT THE CURRENT LEVELS.
THE BIG MOVE WAS DESIGNED... ALL
THAT TRANSIT PLANNING AND THE
ROAD INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING
THAT WAS PUT IN THAT WAS TO
ACTUALLY, MAYBE IN THE INTERIM,
SAVE 20 MINUTES, BUT THAT WHEN
WE GET TO 2031, CONGESTION IS
FLAT AT WHERE WE'RE EXPERIENCING
IT NOW WHEN WE KNOW THAT THE
QUALITY OF LIFE, OUR ECONOMY,
THE ENVIRONMENT IS ALL IMPACTED
BY WHAT WE HAVE NOW.
SO IT'S JUST TO KEEP IT AT THAT
LEVEL.

Steve says CAN I PUT A NEW IDEA
ON THE TABLE HERE AND GET SOME
DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS, WHICH IS,
SOMEBODY MENTIONED SMART... I
THINK IT WAS YOU, TODD.
WHAT IF WE MAKE IT A SMART
HIGHWAY?
OKAY.
LET'S DEFINE THAT.
WHAT IF THIS WERE A HIGHWAY
WHERE ONLY AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES
WERE USEABLE OR BATTERY-POWERED
CARS WERE USABLE OR I GUESS
TRUCKS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO
DELIVER GOODS TO MARKET.
STEVEN, WOULD THAT HELP YOU
SUPPORT IT MORE IF IT WERE ONLY
LIMITED TO THAT KIND OF CLIENTELE?

The caption changes to "Future possibilities."

Steven Farber says ABSOLUTELY NOT.
NOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
BUILDING A HUGELY EXPENSIVE
PIECE OF INFRASTRUCTURE JUST FOR
THE MARGIN OF PEOPLE WHO ARE
GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD
AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES AND BE ABLE
TO DRIVE THEM AROUND.
THAT DOESN'T SWAY THE
EQUATION...

Steve says IT DOESN'T ADDRESS
THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE IF
THERE ARE ELECTRIC VEHICLES ALLOWED.

Steven Farber says SURE, BUT WE STILL HAVE THE
MASSIVE URBANIZATION AROUND THE
HIGHWAY CORRIDOR THAT'S GOING TO
COME AS A RESULT OF THIS NEW
INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH IS GOING TO
HAVE DETRIMENTAL IMPACT TO THE
ENVIRONMENT AS WELL.
THE CORRIDOR... THE GREENBELT
WASN'T ON THE MAP, THEN I'M SURE
IT GOES THROUGH THE GREENBELT OR
VERY CLOSE TO THE GREENBELT.
THIS IS OUR PRECIOUS NATURAL
RESERVE FOR OUR REGION THAT WE
REALLY DO NEED TO PROTECT FOR
SUSTAINABILITY PURPOSES, FOR THE
LONG-TERM VIABILITY OF OUR
REGION, AND BUILDING A NEW
HIGHWAY CORRIDOR WITHIN A
STONE'S THROW OF THAT AMAZING
NATURAL RESOURCE IS GOING TO PUT
TREMENDOUS DEVELOPMENT PRESSURE
THERE AND IT REALLY PUTS THE
SUSTAINABILITY OF OUR REGION AT
RISK.

Steve says LET ME PUT THIS TO
TODD AND I'LL ASK YOU: IF YOU
COULD LIVE WITH THE
RESTRICTIONS, THAT IT WOULD ONLY
BE AUTONOMOUS, BATTERY-POWERED
VEHICLES OR PEOPLE WHO DRIVE
BATTERY POWERED CARS OR TRUCKS
THAT HAVE TO DELIVER GOODS TO
MARKET, BUT NOT EVERYBODY, IT'S
NOT GOING TO BE A FREE-FOR-ALL
THAT'S GOING TO TURN IT INTO
ANOTHER PARKING LOT, WOULD YOU
BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH THOSE
RESTRICTIONS ON IT?

Todd says STEVE, I DON'T
KNOW WHY WE WANT TO RESTRICT
ONTARIANS.
THE MARKET WILL DEMAND HOW MANY
AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES AND TRUCKS
GO ON THAT HIGHWAY, AND IT'S
PART OF A SOLUTION WITH TWO-WAY
ALL-DAY GO TRAPS SIT, AND TO THE
LRT, TO JANE'S POINT.
LET'S NOT FORGET THE THIRD
SOLUTION, INTERMODAL RAIL, SO
MORE GOODS CAN BE TRANSFERRED TO
CUSTOMER FROM MANUFACTURER ON
FREIGHT RAILS.
MILTON LOGISTICS HUB IS IN THIS
DISTRICT AS WELL AND IS ANOTHER
BIG PART OF THE SOLUTION FOR
GROWING OUR ECONOMY AND THE
LIVEABILITY AND QUALITY OF LIFE
IN THE GTA.

Steve says STEVEN?

Steven Farber says YEAH, I'M
STRUGGLING WITH THE NOTION THAT
WE CAN DO IT ALL AND THAT IT'S
ALL NEEDED.
AND I THINK THAT ACTUALLY, WHEN
PEOPLE MAKE TRAVEL DECISIONS,
THEY ARE LOOKING AT THE RELATIVE
COSTS FOR THEMSELVES OVER
WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD TAKE
TRANSIT, BIKE, OR DRIVE THEIR
CAR.
AND BY SIMULTANEOUSLY MAKING CAR
TRAVEL MORE CONVENIENT AND
CHEAPER THROUGH THE EXPANSIVE...
YOU KNOW, THROUGH EXPANDING OUR
INFRASTRUCTURE, WE ARE PUTTING
THAT DECISION... WE'RE MAKING...
YOU'RE SAYING WE CAN MAKE BOTH
GOODS CHEAPER AT THE SAME TIME,
AND THAT WON'T ACTUALLY SHIFT
ANY DRIVERS...

Todd says IN ONTARIO
WE'RE ALREADY SPENDING TWICE AS
MUCH ON TRANSIT AS WE ARE ON
HIGHWAYS.
THAT MIGHT BE A REASONABLE
RATIO.
BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE REAL
LIVES OF ONTARIANS.
THE OPPORTUNITY COSTS OF NOT
HAVING THIS HIGHWAY MEANS THAT
JOB OFFERS ARE BEING DECLINED
BECAUSE TALENTED PEOPLE THINK
THAT THEIR COMMUTE IS GOING TO
BE...

Steve says DO WE KNOW THAT FOR
A FACT?

Todd says WE DO.
I SPOKE TO THE PRESIDENT OF CANON CANADA...

Jane says YOU DON'T HAVE
THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO LIVE...

Todd says THE MARKET
REALITY IS YOU CAN MAKE MORE
MONEY IF YOU TRAVEL MORE THAN 30
KILOMETRES FROM YOUR HOME, AND
THE REALITY IS THAT PEOPLE
ARE... WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING
ABOUT MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES
ANYMORE.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN
INNOVATION CORRIDOR, ALL THE WAY
FROM WATERLOO TO TORONTO, AND
THAT'S JUST THE REALITY OF WHAT
TALENTED PEOPLE WANT IN THEIR
LIFESTYLES AND THE
COMPETITIVENESS AT THIS TO HELP
US COMPETE WITH OTHER
JURISDICTIONS LIKE SILICON
VALLEY AND EUROPE.

Steve says A COUPLE MINUTES
LEFT HERE AND I WANT TO ASK THE
POLITICIAN A POLITICAL QUESTION.
THIS THING IS GOING TO TAKE A
DECADE TO HAPPEN, ONE WAY OR THE
OTHER.

Jane says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says THE PREVIOUS LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT DIDN'T WANT IT.
THE CURRENT CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT DOES WANT IT.
IS THERE A POLITICAL SOLUTION
HERE, DO YOU THINK, AT THE END
OF THE DAY?

Jane says WELL, I MEAN,
THE LIBERALS DECIDED THAT, I
GUESS, THEY COULDN'T DO IT ALL,
AND THEY WERE SEEING THAT THERE
WAS NEW TECHNOLOGY COMING ALONG
AND THEY WANTED TO TAKE A PAUSE
IN ORDER TO ASSESS WHAT IS THE
BEST ROUTE FORWARD.
SO THEN THE CONSERVATIVES COME
IN AND SAY, WELL, IT'S HIGHWAYS
BECAUSE WE'VE ALWAYS DONE
HIGHWAYS.
I WOULD STILL SAY, THIS IS NOT
THE RIGHT SOLUTION, AND THERE
ISN'T THAT MUCH MONEY IN THE
POT.
AND WE HAVE TO DO CLIMATE
CHANGE.

Steve says I'M WONDERING IF YOU
THINK YOU CAN CHANGE THIS
GOVERNMENT'S MIND OR IS THE
SOLUTION JUST NOT TO ELECT THESE
GUYS?

Jane says WE HAVE TEN YEARS.
IT COULD BE A DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT.

Todd says TO BE FAIR,
THIS MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION
HAS A HAND ON THE TRANSIT NEEDS
IN THIS DESIGN OF THE HIGHWAY.
THERE WILL BE AN ALLOCATION FOR
A HIGHWAY IN THE FUTURE.
WE WANT TO TWIN IT AS WELL.

Jane says MAKE IT A TRUCK
WAY AND DON'T BUILD THE REST.

Steve says STEVEN, LAST 30 SECONDS.

Steven Farber says I THINK
THERE WAS AN EXPERT ADVISORY
PANEL TO LOOK AT THIS HIGHWAY IN
2014, THE REPORT WAS AVAILABLE
FOR SOME TIME AND IT'S NOW NOT
AVAILABLE ANYMORE ON MTO'S
WEBSITE, SO I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE
WHAT IT CONTAINS, EXCEPT THAT
THERE WAS A STRONG PIECE OF
ADVICE THAT SAID THAT WE ARE NOT
DOING ENOUGH TO MAKE THE REST OF
OUR TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM
EFFICIENT, THAT WE SHOULD BE
LOOKING AT OTHER ALTERNATIVES
RIGHT NOW, AND THAT WE SHOULDN'T
BE CONSIDERING DOING IT ALL.

The caption changes to "Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81."

Steve says WE HAVE TO BE
EFFICIENT WITH OUR TIME HERE AND
SADLY OUR TIME IS UP.
I WANT TO THANK TODD LETTS FROM
THE BRAMPTON BOARD OF TRADE AND
TERESA Di FELICE FROM CAA SOUTH
CENTRAL ONTARIO ON ONE SIDE OF
TABLE AND
JANE FOGAL FROM THE TOWN OF
HALTON HILLS AND HALTON REGION,
AND STEVEN FARBER THE ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
HUMAN GEOGRAPHY AT U OF T
SCARBOROUGH FOR COMING IN
TONIGHT AND HAVING THIS VERY
CIVILIZED DEBATE.

Steven Farber says THANKS FOR HAVING US.

Steve says THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

The rest of the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Highways and our Transportation Future