Transcript: Amazon's Counterfeit Problem | Nov 26, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and gray plaid tie.

A caption on screen reads "Amazon's counterfeit problem. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says CANADIANS WILL HAVE
SPENT MORE THAN 60 BILLION DOLLARS
SHOPPING ONLINE BY THE END OF
2019, ACCORDING TO MARKET
RESEARCH FIRM eMARKETER.
UNFORTUNATELY, SOME PORTION OF
THAT WILL PURCHASE COUNTERFEIT
PRODUCTS.
IT'S A GROWING PROBLEM AND NOT
JUST IN LUXURY GOODS - IT CAN BE
EVERYTHING FROM CELL PHONE
CHARGERS TO TOYS TO TOOTHBRUSHES.
WITH US NOW TO FIND OUT MORE,
IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON:
RACHEL JOHNSON GREER, CLIENT
STRATEGIST AND FOUNDER OF
CASCADIA SELLER SOLUTIONS...

Rachel is in her late thirties, with long straight brown hair. She's wearing a gray blazer and a purple shirt.

Steve continues AND JAY GREENE, TECHNOLOGY REPORTER WITH THE WASHINGTON POST.

Jay is in his late forties, balding, with a stubble. He's wearing glasses, a blue coat and a checkered blue shirt.

Steve continues IN OUR STUDIO AT LAURENTIAN
UNIVERSITY IN SUDBURY:
BARRY ELLIOTT, CRIMINAL ANALYST
WITH THE RCMP's CRIMINAL
INTELLIGENCE ANALYTICAL UNIT.

Barry is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with receding gray hair. He's wearing a white shirt and a patterned gray tie.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
GEORGINA DANZIG, A LAWYER
SPECIALIZING IN ANTI-
COUNTERFEITING, AND A PARTNER AT
KESTENBERG SIEGAL LIPKUS LLP.

Georgina is in her fifties, with shoulder-length feathery auburn hair. She's wearing pentagonal glasses, a blue blazer, a beaded necklace and a dragonfly-shaped brooch.

Steve continues GEORGINA, GREAT TO HAVE YOU
HERE, FIRST TIME.
AND TO OUR GUESTS OUT OF TOWN,
WE'RE HAPPY YOU COULD SPARE TIME
FOR US ON TVO TONIGHT.
I WANT TO SET UP THE DISCUSSION
BY ASKING OUR CONTROL ROOM TO
BRING THIS UP, IF THEY WOULD.
THE OECD RELEASED A REPORT IN
MARCH ATTEMPTING TO PUT NUMBERS
ON THE ISSUE OF COUNTERFEITING
AND THEY FOUND...

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Counterfeit goods as a percentage of global trade."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
IN 2019, COUNTERFEIT GOODS ACCOUNTED FOR
3.3 percent OF ALL GLOBAL TRADE, AND
THAT IS UP FROM 2.5 percent, WHICH IS
THE WAY IT WAS IN 2013.
AND, JAY, WE'LL GET YOU TO WEIGH
IN FIRST: WHY HAS COUNTERFEITING
CONTINUED TO GROW?

The caption changes to "Jay Greene. The Washington Post."
Then, it changes again to "Faking it."

Jay says I THINK BECAUSE
IT'S EASY.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT ONLINE SALES IN
PARTICULAR, IT'S HARD FOR FOLKS
WHO ARE PURCHASING THE PRODUCTS
TO KNOW THEY'RE BUYING COUNTER
FITS.
ALSO WITH A COMPANY LIKE AMAZON,
IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO SEE WHAT'S
COUNTERFEIT BEFORE IT GETS UP
THERE.
I THINK IT MAKES IT EASY FOR
THESE THINGS TO SPREAD ACROSS
THE COUNTRY.

Steve says BARRY, I'LL FOLLOW
UP WITH YOU.
A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE KNOW
THEY'RE GETTING KNOCK-OFFS AND
THEY'RE PROBABLY OKAY WITH IT.
SHOULD THEY NOT BE OKAY WITH IT,
IN YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Barry Elliott. RCMP."

Barry says WE DON'T
KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY PEOPLE IN
CANADA WHO ARE ORDERING
COUNTERFEIT KNOW IT'S
COUNTERFEIT AND THEY'RE HAPPY
IT'S COUNTERFEIT.
THE KEY CONCERN WE HAVE,
ESPECIALLY RELATED TO DRUGS.
IF YOU'RE ORDERING DRUGS ONLINE,
SOME OF THIS STUFF CAN KILL YOU.

Steve says OKAY.
WELL, WE DON'T WANT THAT.
BUT LET'S FIND OUT HOW SERIOUS
THIS IS.
GEORGINA, WE KNOW ABOUT PURSES,
WE KNOW ABOUT COATS.
THOSE ARE THE TYPICAL THINGS.
IN YOUR TRAVELS, WHAT KIND OF
ODD THINGS HAVE YOU SEEN PEOPLE
BUY THAT ARE COUNTERFEIT?

The caption changes to "Georgina Danzig. Kestenberg, Siegal, Lipkus."

Georgina says FRANKLY, IT'S JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU
CAN BUY YOU CAN BUY A
COUNTERFEIT VERSION OF.
IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT LUXURY
GOODS.
IT'S SOUP TO NUTS.
AS BARRY SAID, IT'S FROM
PHARMACEUTICALS TO FOOTWEAR AND
EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.
IN CANADA, WE'VE SEEN
COUNTERFEIT ELECTRICAL PRODUCTS,
WE'VE SEEN COUNTERFEIT
TOOTHBRUSHES.

Steve says WHAT IS A
COUNTERFEIT TOOTHBRUSH?

The caption changes to "Georgina Danzig, @ksllaw."

Georgina says SO A COUNTERFEIT ANYTHING
REALLY GOES BACK TO WHO MADE THE
PRODUCT AND WHAT BRAND OR
TRADEMARK IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE
PRODUCT.
SO A COUNTERFEIT TOOTHBRUSH, BY
WAY OF EXAMPLE, WOULD BE A
TOOTHBRUSH THAT PURPORTS TO BE A
TOOTHBRUSH OF A PARTICULAR
COMPANY WITH A TRADEMARK
ASSOCIATED WITH THAT COMPANY AND
IT BEARS THAT TRADEMARK, ONLY
THE BRUSH WAS NOT MADE BY THAT
COMPANY.
SO THE COUNTERFEITER HAS NOT
GIVEN ANY REGARD TO THE HEALTH
AND SAFETY STANDARDS AND THE
QUALITY CONTROL AND THE ELEMENTS
THAT GO INTO BY WAY OF EXAMPLE
BEING MAKING A TOOTHBRUSH.

Steve says DID I HEAR RIGHT,
DENTAL IMPLANTS AS WELL?

Georgina says SO THERE ARE INPUTS AS
WELL... I MEAN, IT'S BUSINESS TO
BUSINESS COMMODITIES.
BASICALLY ANYTHING THAT CAN BE
MADE CAN BE COUNTERFEITED.

Steve says RACHEL, I'LL GET YOU
TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT BARRY SAID.
PART OF HIS JOB IS TO MAKE SURE
NOBODY DIES FROM THIS.
BUT HOW DANGEROUS CAN
COUNTERFEIT ITEMS BE?

The caption changes to "Rachel Johnson Greer. Cascadia Seller Solutions."

Rachel says WE USED TO DO A LOT OF PRODUCT
SAFETY INVESTIGATIONS WHEN I WAS
AT AMAZON AND I HELPED CLIENTS
TO SOLVE ISSUES WHEN AMAZON
COMES TO THEM WITH A CUSTOMER
COMPLAINT, AND IT CAN BE
ANYTHING FROM SOMEONE WHO SOLD
SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY
COUNTERFEIT, SO IT'S GOT
SOMEBODY ELSE'S BRAND, TO
SOMEONE WHO JUST SLAPPED A BRAND
ON SOMETHING THEY BOUGHT DIRECT
FROM A FACTORY IN CHINA THAT
DOESN'T HAVE A BRAND ON IT AT ALL.
AND THESE FOLKS ARE NOT AWARE OF
THE SAFETY IMPLICATIONS.
WE HAD ONE SITUATION WHERE THE
COMPLAINT THAT CAME IN WAS A
MOTHER WHO SAID THAT PIECES OF
THE PACIFIER CLIP BROKE OFF AND
HER BABY WAS CHOKING ON IT AND
SHE HAD TO SMACK HER BABY'S BACK
TO GET THEM TO COUGH UP THE
PIECES OF PLASTIC SO THEY
WOULDN'T CHOKE TO DEATH.
SO IT CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS TO
USE THESE PRODUCTS.

Steve says THE THEORY THERE
BEING IF IT WAS THE GENUINE
ARTICLE, THAT WOULD NOT HAVE
HAPPENED, I GUESS, RIGHT?

Rachel says CORRECT.
ANYTHING THAT HAS BEEN TESTED
APPROPRIATELY AND IS PRODUCED TO
STANDARDS WILL NOT BREAK LIKE THAT.

Steve says RACHEL, LET ME DO A
FEW FOLLOW-UPS WITH YOU.
WE ARE GOING TO FOCUS ON AMAZON
AND YOU DID, AS YOU POINTED OUT,
YOU DID WORK THERE.
I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS, BUT
ACCORDING TO A MARKET RESEARCH
COMPANY, EMARKETER, THAT WE
QUOTED OFF THE TOP, HALF THE
HOUSEHOLDS IN CANADA AND THE
U.S. ARE MEMBERS OF AMAZON
PRIME.
HALF.
THAT IS AMAZING.
YOU WORKED AT AMAZON FOR HOW LONG?

Rachel says I WAS
THERE FOR ABOUT 8 YEARS.

Steve says WHAT DID YOU DO THERE?

The caption changes to "Rachel Johnson Greer, @thinkcascadia."
Then, it changes again to "The house that Bezos built."

Rachel says SO I WORKED BOTH IN THE FRAUD
DEPARTMENT, SO HANDLING THESE
KIND OF SITUATIONS, SUPPORTING
LAW ENFORCEMENT WITH THEIR
INQUIRIES, AND I ALSO WORKED IN
COMPLIANCE, WORKING ON TRYING TO
PREVENT THESE KIND OF ISSUES
FROM HAPPENING.

Steve says DID YOU FIND THAT
AMAZON WAS PARTICULARLY
SUSCEPTIBLE TO COUNTERFEITERS?

Rachel says YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
AND PART OF THAT... THERE'S TWO
REASONS WHY AMAZON IS
PARTICULARLY SUSCEPTIBLE.
THE FIRST IS BECAUSE IT'S JUST
SUCH A BIG MARKETPLACE.
IT'S JUST A REALLY ATTRACTIVE
MARKETPLACE FOR A COUNTERFEITER
TO SELL ON BECAUSE SO MANY
PEOPLE ARE ON AMAZON ON A
REGULAR BASIS AND TRUST AMAZON,
AND SO IT'S JUST A VERY
ATTRACTIVE MARKETPLACE.
AND THE SECOND REASON WHY
THEY'RE VERY SUSCEPTIBLE IS
BECAUSE AMAZON HAS THIS IDEA OF
REDUCING FRICTION, REDUCING
FRICTION FOR SELLERS, REDUCING
FRICTION FOR CUSTOMERS, REDUCING
FRICTION TO ENGAGE ON THE
PLATFORM.
THEY'VE MADE IT EASY OVER THE
YEARS TO BECOME A SELLER AND
LIST NEW PRODUCTS ON AMAZON.
THEY HAVEN'T MADE IT HARD.
SO IT'S NOT AS DIFFICULT AS IT
MIGHT BE TO SELL COUNTERFEIT ON
A DIFFERENT PLATFORM.

Steve says GOTCHA.
JAY, AS I BRING YOU BACK INTO
THE CONVERSATION, I GUESS WE
SHOULD ESTABLISH IN THE
INTERESTS OF FULL DISCLOSURE
THAT THE NEWSPAPER YOU WORK FOR,
THE WASHINGTON POST, IS OWNED BY
MR. BEZOS, JEFF BEZOS, WHO OWNS
AMAZON.
WE'LL JUST PUT THAT OUT THERE
FOR EVERYBODY TO KNOW.
YOU RECENTLY PUBLISHED A STORY
ON COUNTERFEIT ITEMS BEING SOLD
ON AMAZON.
WHAT WERE THE BIG TAKE-AWAYS FOR
YOU ON THAT?

The caption changes to "Jay Greene, @Greene. The Washington Post."

Jay says I THINK A FEW ONES.
THE BIG ONE IS HOW EASY IT IS TO
FIND THIS STUFF.
YOU CAN GO THERE AND I TYPED IN
LOUIS VUITTON DUPES AND THE PAGE
JUST POPULATED WITH FAKE LOUIS
VUITTON PURSES AND HANDBAGS AND
WALLETS AND WHATNOT.
IT'S FAIRLY REMARKABLE TO ME HOW
EASY IT WAS TO FIND THAT.
I THINK THE OTHER POINT SPEAKS
TO WHAT RACHEL JUST MENTIONED,
WHICH IS THE REASON FOR THAT IS
THAT THE SITE IS SO VAST.
IT'S HARD TO POLICE.

A screenshot from the Amazon webpage shows several Louis Vuitton handbags, purses, belts and other items.

Jay continues AND AMAZON MAKES IT EASY FOR
SELLERS TO GET ONTO THE SITE.
SO RIGHT NOW ON THE U.S. SITE
THERE'S SOMETHING LIKE
2.5 MILLION THIRD PARTY SELLERS,
SO COMPANIES THAT SELL PRODUCTS
OTHER THAN AMAZON THAT USE ITS
SITE TO DO SO.
SO IT'S A MARKETPLACE.
AND THEY SELL SOMETHING LIKE
500 MILLION PRODUCTS ON ANY
GIVEN DAY, AND SO THE IDEA OF
TOO I GO TO POLICE EVERY SINGLE
ONE OF THOSE LISTINGS IS
PAINFULLY DIFFICULT, IF NOT
IMPOSSIBLE.
SO IT'S EASY FOR FOLKS WHO WANT
TO SCAM TO POST THESE PRODUCTS
ONTO AMAZON'S SITE, AND AMAZON
WILL TELL YOU IT TRIES TO PULL
THE THINGS DOWN AFTER THEY'RE
LISTED, BUT IT'S HARD.

Steve says IN THE MIDST OF THAT
ANSWER, WE DID BRING UP A SCREEN
GRAB ONLINE FROM WHAT YOU GET
WHEN YOU PUT... THERE IT IS
AGAIN... WHEN YOU PUT LV DUPES,
AS IN LOUIS VUITTON KNOCKOFFS,
INTO AMAZON.CA, YOU GET A WHOLE
BUNCH OF OPTIONS THAT... OKAY,
I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS
SO YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HELP
ME, WHAT'S A REAL LOUIS VUITTON
BAG COST AND WHAT CAN YOU BUY
ONE FOR ON AMAZON?

Jay says OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE RANGES
FOR ALL OF THESE THINGS.
ONE OF THEIR BIG, NEVER FULL
HANDBAGS... TRUST ME I'VE
LEARNED MORE ABOUT HANDBAGS.
YOU CAN BUY A LOUIS VUITTON
NEVER FULL HANDBAG FROM LOUIS
VUITTON AND IT MIGHT BE 1200 OR
1300 U.S.
ON THE WEBSITE YOU CAN FIND A
BAG THAT LOOKS AWFULLY SIMILAR,
SAME DIMENSION, SAME BASIC
PATTERNS, SAME HANDLE STRAPS AND
WHATNOT FOR ABOUT 50 BUCKS.

Steve says THAT IS SOME SERIOUS
SAVINGS, GEORGINA.
SO THERE'S GREAT INCENTIVE TO GO
FOR THE KNOCKOFF IF YOU CAN'T
TELL THE DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?

Georgina says THERE IS
AN INCENTIVE TO THE CONSUMER.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT AND THIS
SHOW WILL HIGHLIGHT THE REASONS
WHY CONSUMERS SHOULD NOT BE
GRAVITATING TO THE KNOCKOFFS.
AT ITS CORE, IT'S THEFT.
THERE ARE SO MANY REASONS,
THERE'S HEALTH AND SAFETY
CONCERNS, THERE'S AN
UNDERSTANDING OF WHO ACTUALLY IS
INVOLVED IN THE MANUFACTURE AND
SALE OF THESE COUNTERFEIT GOODS.
THERE'S BEEN REPORTED LINKS THAT
THE FINANCING FOR TERRORIST
ORGANIZATIONS IS ROUTED BACK TO
THE SELLERS OF COUNTERFEIT
PRODUCTS.
SO WHO ARE WE?
WHO DO WE WANT TO BE?
WHAT LESSONS ARE WE TEACHING OUR
CHILDREN?
WHAT IS IT THAT WE WANT TO HAVE
AND HOLD?
AND HOW DO WE WANT TO REPRESENT
OURSELVES?

Steve says SO FOR THE COST OF
SAVING A LITTLE MONEY ON A CHEAP
BAG, WE COULD BE ENCOURAGING A
WHOLE LOT OF OTHER NEGATIVE
STUFF AT THE SAME TIME?

Georgina says ABSOLUTELY.
WHO IS MAKING THESE BAGS?
WE JUST HAD THIS CANADIAN
ELECTION AND WE'RE FOCUSED ON
ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS AND
SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY.
WHO IS MAKING THESE KNOCK-OFFS
AND WHAT CONTRIBUTIONS ARE THEY
MAKING TO CANADIAN SOCIETY?

Steve says BARRY, LET ME GET
YOU BACK IN HERE.
HOW DIFFICULT DOES IT MAKE YOUR
JOB WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WITH
THE ABILITY TO GET AROUND
SOPHISTICATED ALGORITHMS WHO CAN
GET BASICALLY WHATEVER THEY WANT
WHENEVER THEY WANT.

The caption changes to "A growing problem."

Barry says THE PROBLEM
IS WE HAVE ASIAN ORGANIZED CRIME
THAT IS 99.9 percent OF THE PROBLEM FOR
CANADIAN VICTIMS.
WE CAN LINK BACK THROUGH ALL THE
PURCHASES THROUGH MERCHANT
ACCOUNTS OUT OF FOUR STATE-RUN
BANKS IN CHINA AND MOST OF THE
PACKAGING, 99.9 percent OF THE
PACKAGING, IS COMING OUT OF
CHINA.
SO GEORGINA IS RIGHT.
I MEAN, ALL THIS STUFF IS
CREATED BY ORGANIZED CRIME AND
OTHERS, AND IT'S A SERIOUS
PROBLEM AND IT'S... WE'RE NOT
GOING TO BE REACHING OUT AND
ARRESTING ANYBODY IN CHINA TOO
SOON, BUT WE CAN CERTAINLY DO
SOMETHING ABOUT THE BANKS.

Steve says WELL, THAT WAS MY
NEXT QUESTION, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY
IF IT'S IN CHINA, IT'S WELL
BEYOND YOUR ARM OF THE LAW, SO
WHAT CAN YOU DO?

The caption changes to "Barry Elliott, @rcmpgrcpolice."

Barry says WELL, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF
SUCCESS WORKING WITH VISA AND
MASTERCARD, AND AS I SAID
BEFORE, WE IDENTIFIED FOUR
STATE-RUN BANKS THAT CONTROLLED
99 percent OF THE PROBLEM, AND A YEAR
AGO LAST OCTOBER, AT GEORGINA'S
LAW FIRM'S CONFERENCE, VISA
ANNOUNCED THAT THEY HAD
PERMANENTLY TERMINATED THE
RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE OF THE
STATE-RUN BANKS.
AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, MILLIONS
AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN LOST
SALES TO THAT BANK.
AND THE OTHER THREE WERE WARNED
THAT IF THEY DON'T CLEAN UP
THEIR ACT, THE SAME THING IS
GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM.
AS A RESULT OF THAT, THOUGH, THE
ORGANIZED CRIME GROUPS HAVE
SPREAD AROUND THE WORLD, AND
WE'RE HAVING MERCHANT ACCOUNTS
OPENED UP EVERYWHERE YOU CAN
THINK OF.

Steve says HOW ABOUT PROJECT CHARGEBACK?
CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

Barry says WELL, IT'S BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL.
IT'S A DIFFERENT APPROACH FOR
THE BRANDS AND OTHERS, FOLLOWING
THE MONEY.
AND IT'S BASIS POINT A HUGE
SUCCESS.
A LOT OF COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN
LOOKING AT WHAT WE'RE DOING.
BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN TOO MUCH...
TOO MANY COUNTRIES POPPING UP
WITH THE SAME PROJECT BECAUSE
THEY'RE AFRAID OF DEALING WITH
TENS OF THOUSANDS OF VICTIMS.
BUT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO RECOVER
ABOUT 50 MILLION DOLLARS FOR ABOUT
50,000 VICTIMS SINCE
JANUARY 2013, WORKING WITH THE
CANADIAN BANKS.
THE CANADIAN BANKS HAVE BEEN
JUST TERRIFIC, AND IT'S ALL
WORKED OUT EXTREMELY WELL, PLUS
WE'RE GETTING ALL THIS INTEL ON
WHERE THIS STUFF IS COMING, WHAT
BANKS IT'S COMING OUT OF.

Steve says GEORGINA, CAN YOU
FOLLOW UP ON THAT?
HE MENTIONED IN THE SCOPE OF
THAT ANSWER A CONFERENCE YOU
RECENTLY PUT ON AND HOW YOU
MANAGED TO GET ONE OF THE CREDIT
CARD COMPANIES ON SIDE TO PURSUE
THIS NEFARIOUSNESS?
TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.

Georgina says TO CLARIFY THE RECORD ON
THAT, IT WAS BARRY ELLIOTT AND
THE CHARGEBACK PROGRAM THAT WAS
ABLE TO ORCHESTRATE THE
SHUT-DOWN OF THE BANK.
IT WAS ANNOUNCED AT THE
CONFERENCE.
BUT THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, YOU
KNOW, IF YOU GO AFTER... IF YOU
UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS OFTEN
LINKED TO CRIMINAL
ORGANIZATIONS, AS BARRY HAS
SAID, AND YOU WANT TO HIT THEM
HARD, WHAT DO YOU DO?
IT'S ONE THING TO TAKE DOWN A
SITE WHERE SOMEBODY MIGHT BE
SELLING FROM, BUT THEN THEY'RE
GOING TO POP UP ANOTHER SITE AND
ANOTHER SITE AND IT'S A GAME OF
WHACK-A-MOLE, IT'S VERY HARD TO
MANAGE ANTICOUNTERFEITING USING
THAT TECHNIQUE.
WHAT THE CHARGEBACK PROGRAM DOES
IS IN EFFECT IT IDENTIFIES THE
MERCHANT PROCESSOR THAT IS
PROVIDING SERVICES TO THE
VENDOR.
AND SO YOU SHUT DOWN THEIR
ABILITY TO PROCESS A CREDIT CARD
TRANSACTION, AND THAT CAN AFFECT
50, 60, 100 OF THEIR SITES
BECAUSE THEY CAN'T USE THAT
SYSTEM ANYMORE TO PROCESS.
SO IN A SENSE YOU'RE HITTING
THEM WHERE IT HURTS, YOU'RE
HITTING THE COUNTERFEITERS IN
THE POCKETBOOK AND IT'S BEEN
VERY EFFECTIVE.
ON THE OTHER SIDE, FROM THE
CONSUMERS' PERSPECTIVE, CANADIAN
CONSUMERS ARE GETTING THEIR
MONEY BACK AND THAT'S ALSO AN
IMPORTANT AND I THINK... AN
IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION FOR
CONSUMERS AND A REAL ADVANTAGE
THROUGH THE PROGRAM THAT THE
ANTIFRAUD CENTRE HAS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says RACHEL, LET ME GET
BACK TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE
WAY AMAZON DOES BUSINESS.
THEY'VE GOT THIS, AGAIN,
ALGORITHMS ARE INVOLVED HERE,
AND I WONDER HOW, BASED ON YOUR
EXPERIENCE, COUNTERFEITERS ARE
ABLE TO GAME AMAZON'S ALGORITHMS.

Rachel says YES.
SO I WAS ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN
THE LAUNCH OF ONE OF THE BIGGEST
TOOLS THAT FIND THESE TYPE OF
PRODUCTS AND TAKE THEM DOWN.
IT WAS ACTUALLY THE LAST BIG
PROJECT I WORKED ON BEFORE MY
MATERNITY LEAVE BACK IN 2011 AND
IT'S WORKED VERY WELL.
IT'S A VERY EFFECTIVE PROGRAM.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT ONLY
WORKS AFTER A LISTING IS
CREATED, SO YOU HAVE TO CREATE
THE LISTING FOR IT TO WORK.
THE SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK IN ANY
OTHER WAY.
THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED
OVER 20 YEARS AGO.
THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT
AND WAIT UNTIL THE LISTING HAS
ALREADY BEEN CREATED.
THE SECOND THING THAT'S
PROBLEMATIC ABOUT IT IS AMAZON
IS ESSENTIALLY A SEARCH ENGINE.
AND EACH OF THE LISTINGS EXIST
IN WHAT'S CALLED THE CATALOGUE.
THE PERSON CREATING THE LISTING,
WHICH IS USUALLY A SELLER, IS
PUTTING INFORMATION IN.
THEY'RE PUTTING IN KEYWORDS,
THEY'RE TYPING IN VARIOUS TERMS
THAT CUSTOMERS MIGHT USE TO FIND
THEIR PRODUCT.
IF THEY DON'T USE THOSE TERMS
THAT HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY
FLAGGED, THEN THEY WON'T GET
STOPPED.
SO WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING IS YOU
END UP CREATING A REALLY GREAT
RULE THAT FINDS, YOU KNOW, X, Y,
AND Z OF WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR
AND THEN, ONCE YOU'VE GOTTEN
THAT ONE DONE, THEN THE
FRAUDSTERS GO FIND ANOTHER TERM
THEY'RE GOING TO USE AND THAT
BECOMES THE NEW TERM, AND SO NOW
YOU HAVE TO FIND THAT ONE.
SO IT'S A CONSTANT GAME OF
HUMANS TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH
THE HUMANS THAT ARE TRYING TO
GAME THE SYSTEM.

Steve says AS GEORGINA
SUGGESTED, SHE USED THE EXAMPLE
OF WHACK-A-MOLE A FEW MINUTES AGO.
I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW MORE
ABOUT THIS THAN I DO.
CRIMINALS CAN BE PLENTY CREATIVE
AND CAN ALWAYS STAY AHEAD OF THE
LAW THAT IS CHASING THEM.
IS THAT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

Rachel says THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON.
THAT'S PARTLY WHY I FEEL IN SOME
WAYS IT'S PARTLY MY FAULT
BECAUSE THE DESIGN THAT I CAME
UP WITH, YOU KNOW, 8 YEARS AGO,
WAS PRODUCT-FOCUSED.
IT WASN'T SELLER-FOCUSED.
I THINK THAT'S WHERE AMAZON HAS
GONE WRONG OVER THE YEARS IS
THEY CONTINUE TO BE PRODUCT
FOCUSED AND THEY CONTINUE TO BE
FOCUSED ON WHAT THE SELLER IS
PUTTING UP AS THOUGH IN SOME WAY
ALL SELLERS ARE IN SOME WAY
GOOD, AND IT'S JUST THE PRODUCTS
THAT MIGHT BE PROBLEMATIC.
I THINK THAT'S WHERE THEY'VE
GONE WRONG HERE IS THERE'S NOT
ENOUGH FOCUS ON VETTING OF
SELLERS AHEAD OF TIME.
THEY DO HAVE VERY SOPHISTICATED
SELLER-VETTING TOOLS.
BUT THE FACT IS, I'VE WORKED
WITH CLIENTS BEFORE WHO CAME TO
US AND OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T STAY
CLIENTS FOR VERY LONG, BUT THEY
TOLD US, WE GOT ONE OF OUR
ACCOUNTS SHUT DOWN, AND I WAS
LIKE, WAIT, ONE OF YOUR
ACCOUNTS?
YEAH, WE HAVE THIS... AT OUR
LOCATION, WE HAVE ABOUT 30
COMPUTERS AND ONE OF OUR
ACCOUNTS GOT SHUT DOWN.
I WAS LIKE, EXCUSE ME?
YOU HAVE 30 COMPUTERS?
THIS IS A PRETTY COMMON PRACTICE
AMONGST THESE KIND OF CHINESE
GROUPS AND THIS WAS A CHINESE
CLIENT, POTENTIAL CLIENT, AND
THEY ACTUALLY HAVE WHOLE SYSTEMS
SET UP, WHOLE CONSULTANCIES IN
CHINA, SHOWING THEM HOW TO
CREATE MULTIPLE AMAZON ACCOUNTS,
HOW TO CREATE SHELL COMPANIES IN
THE U.S., BASICALLY HOW TO LOOK
LIKE A LEGITIMATE COMPANY, SO IT
GETS RIGHT PAST AMAZON'S REVIEW
WHEN THEY'RE CREATING THEIR
SELLER ACCOUNTS.

Steve says AS WE CONSIDER WHAT
AMAZON EITHER HAS IN THE PAST
DONE ABOUT THIS OR INTENDS TO DO
IN THE FUTURE, JAY, LET ME READ
YOU A STATEMENT THEY GAVE.
WE INVITED SOMEBODY FROM AMAZON
TO COME ON THE PROGRAM.
THEY DECLINED THE INVITATION BUT
THEY DID SEND US THIS STATEMENT,
AND IT GOES LIKE THIS...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Statement from Amazon." The quote reads "Our customers expect that when they make a purchase through Amazon's store -either directly from Amazon or from one of its millions of third-party sellers they will receive authentic products. Amazon strictly prohibits the sale of counterfeit products and we invest heavily in both funds and company energy to ensure our policy is followed. We work with and empower brands through programs like Brand Registry, Transparency, and Project Zero to ensure only authentic products are sold in our stores. We investigate any claim of counterfeit thoroughly, including removing the item, permanently removing the bad actor, pursuing legal action or working with law enforcement as appropriate."
Quoted from Amazon Spokesperson. November 21, 2019.

Steve says JAY, BEFORE WE PICK
THAT APART AND GO THROUGH IT
WITH A LITTLE MORE SPECIFICITY,
AS A GENERAL RESPONSE, HOW
EFFECTIVE DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

Jay says AS WE'VE SHOWN,
THERE'S PLENTY OF COUNTERFEITS
ON AMAZON.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT
AMAZON HAS PRIORITIZED IS
SELECTION.
THERE ARE THREE CATEGORIES THEY
ALWAYS TALK ABOUT WHEN THEY WANT
TO TALK ABOUT HOW GREAT THEIR
BUSINESS IS, AND IT'S THE FACT
THEY HAVE GREAT PRICES, THEY
HAVE VAST SELECTION, AND IT'S
SUPER CONVENIENT TO GET YOUR
PRODUCTS VERY QUICKLY.
IN THIS INSTANCE, THEY'VE
PRIORITIZED SELECTION OVER SOME
OF THESE OTHER ISSUES WITH
REGARD TO COUNTERFEITING, AND
SO, YOU KNOW, AS RACHEL SAYS,
THEY COULD VET SELLERS MORE
AGGRESSIVELY AT THE START, BUT
WHAT THAT WOULD PROBABLY MEAN IS
THEY WOULD LOSE SELECTION, AND
NOT JUST SELECTION FROM PEOPLE
WHO ARE SELLING FRAUDULENT
PRODUCTS BUT PROBABLY FROM
PEOPLE WHO AREN'T BUT COULDN'T
MEET WHATEVER NEW BARRIERS
AMAZON MIGHT PUT IN PLACE.
SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SORT OF THE
RUB HERE.
AMAZON IS DECIDING THAT, AS A
COMPETITIVE ISSUE, IT'S GOING TO
CHOOSE SELECTION OVER SOME OF
THESE OTHER AREAS.

Steve says THEY DID MENTION
THREE THINGS IN THAT RESPONSE:
BRAND REGISTRY, TRANSPARENCY,
AND PROJECT ZERO.
WHAT ARE THOSE THINGS, JAY?

Jay says WELL, I CAN
SPEAK TO SOME OF THEM, BUT
BROADLY WHAT THEY ARE IS THEY
ARE PROGRAMS THAT AMAZON HAS SET
UP FOR BRANDS TO COME IN AND
SELL THEM AFTER THE FACT THAT
THERE'S A PRODUCT ON THE SITE
THAT THEY BELIEVE MIGHT BE
FRAUDULENT.
WE TALKED ABOUT LOUIS VUITTON IN
AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THEM AGAIN.
WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS LOUIS
VUITTON SHOULD GO TO THE
WEBSITE, TELL THE PRODUCTS THAT
ARE FAKE, AND BY THE WAY,
AMAZON, WE THINK THIS IS FAKE.
YOU SHOULD INVESTIGATE AND TAKE
THAT DOWN.
THE PROBLEM IS LOUIS VUITTON
DOESN'T WANT THEIR PRODUCTS,
EVEN LEGITIMATE ONES, TO BE ON
AMAZON.
SO TO EXPECT THEM TO GO TO THE
WEBSITE, DETECT A PRODUCT AND
PULL IT DOWN, IS A BIT
FAR-FETCHED.
IT ISN'T THE KIND OF THING THAT
YOU COULD IMAGINE LOUIS VUITTON
WOULD WANT TO DO.
IT GOES A STEP FARTHER.
SOME OF YOUR OTHER GUESTS HAVE
MENTIONED TOO.
LUXURY GOODS ARE LOW-HANGING
FRUIT FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME.
IT'S EASY TO SPOT AND PICK OUT.
YOU CAN RUN A GRAPHIC ON YOUR
SHOW AND ILLUSTRATE THE POINT.
THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE
MUCH HARDER TO DETECT ON THE
WEBSITE.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THINGS LIKE
BABY FOOD OR AUTO PARTS, I'VE
ALSO HEARD ABOUT PERFUMES, AND
IF THOSE ARE COUNTERFEITED, IT'S
ACTUALLY HARD FOR ANYBODY TO
KNOW THEY'RE COUNTERFEIT UNTIL
THEY ACTUALLY ARRIVE ON THEIR
DOORSTEP, THEY OPEN IT UP AND
THEY START TO USE THE PRODUCT.
SO IT'S REALLY HARD AT THAT
POINT FOR A BRAND TO CONTACT
AMAZON AND SAY, HEY, WE THINK
THIS IS FAKE.

Steve says BARRY, IF WE'RE
OPERATING ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT
THIS IS A BIT WHACK-A-MOLE, THEY
DO SOMETHING AND YOU TRY TO
CHASE THEM, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT
FOR AUTHORITIES TO GET PROACTIVE
ABOUT THIS AND ACTUALLY TRY TO
GET AHEAD OF THE CURVE HERE?

The caption changes to "Know your fakes."

Barry says WELL, WE'RE
ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE COUNTERFEIT.
I'VE FIGURED THAT OUT.
WE CAN TRY TO REDUCE THE OVERALL
PROBLEM AND TRY TO EDUCATE THE
PUBLIC AS BEST WE CAN, BUT
COUNTERFEIT IS GOING TO BE
AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.
I JUST WANT TO SAY TOO THAT WE
GET A LOT MORE COMPLAINTS ON
EBAY ON COUNTERFEIT COMPLAINTS
THAN WE DO ON AMAZON, AND WE
WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH PAYPAL TO
TERMINATE AS MANY OF THESE
PAYPAL PER CHANT ACCOUNTS THAT
WE CAN.
WE'VE DEVELOPED A RELATIONSHIP
WITH AMAZON TO SHARE OUR INTEL
WITH THEIR GROUP OUT OF
CALIFORNIA.
BUT, YEAH, WE'RE GOING TO BE
FIGHTING THIS FOR A LONG TIME TO
COME.

Steve says GEORGINA, LET ME PUT
YOU IN THE HEAD OF A CONSUMER
RIGHT NOW.
WHEN THEY ARE PURCHASING
SOMETHING OFF A WEBSITE SUCH AS
AMAZON.CA, DO THEY THINK THAT
THEY ARE FOR SURE GETTING
SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN TESTED,
THAT ADHERES TO CANADIAN
STANDARDS, AND THAT THEY CAN BE
REASONABLY ASSURED THEREFORE
THAT THEY'RE GETTING SOMETHING
THAT'S DECENT?

Georgina says I THINK
THE MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS DO
ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT.
I KNOW THAT IN MY DEALINGS IN
THE ANTICOUNTERFEITING SPACE FOR
THE LAST MANY, MANY YEARS, I'LL
OFTEN BE MET WITH, WELL, HOW IS
IT ALLOWED INTO THE COUNTRY IF
IT'S COUNTERFEIT?
DOESN'T CANADA BORDER SERVICES
STOP ALL THE COUNTERFEIT GOODS?
OR HOW IS AMAZON ALLOWED TO SELL
IT IF IT IS COUNTERFEIT?
THERE IS THIS BELIEF THAT THERE
IS A BIG UMBRELLA THAT'S MAKING
SURE THAT ALL OF CANADIANS ARE
SAFE.
WE HAVE LEGISLATION TO PROTECT
THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF
CANADIANS.
BUT, YOU KNOW, e-COMMERCE AND
THE GLOBALIZATION OF TRADE AND
THE NEED FOR THE FREE FLOW OF
GOODS MAKES THE STOPPAGES AND
THE CHECKS ASSOCIATED AND NEEDED
TO KEEP THESE GOODS OUT OF THE
COUNTRY AND OUT OF THE HANDS OF
CONSUMERS DIFFICULT.
AND I THINK ALSO THE UMBRELLA OF
AMAZON, JUST THE STATISTICS YOU
GAVE AT THE BEGINNING OF HOW
MANY CANADIANS ARE SHOPPING ON
AMAZON.
WE JUST HAVE THIS BELIEF THAT IN
THE BRAND, SO THEN WE HAVE A
BELIEF IN THE COMMODITIES BEING
SOLD ON THE BRAND AND I THINK
MANY CONSUMERS DON'T RECOGNIZE
THAT A LOT OF THESE PRODUCTS ARE
COMING FROM THIRD PARTY SELLERS.
THEY'RE NOT AMAZON'S...
NECESSARILY AMAZON PRODUCT.
THERE'S DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF
SELLERS THROUGH THE AMAZON
NETWORK.
SO WE HAVE TO DO OUR DUE
DILIGENCE AS CONSUMERS.
WE WORK REALLY HARD FOR OUR
MONEY, AND YOU HAVE TO BE PRETTY
INFORMED WHEN YOU PUT YOUR MONEY
DOWN TO BUY A PRODUCT WHAT IT IS
YOU'RE BUYING AND WHO YOU'RE
BUYING IT FROM AND DO SOME DUE
DILIGENCE.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Steve says IT IS AN INDICATION,
RACHEL, OF HOW MUCH LEGITIMACY
WE IMBEAU ON PLACES LIKE AMAZON
OR BRANDS LIKE AMAZON, WE ASSUME
IF IT'S COMING OFF AN AMAZON
WEBSITE, OBVIOUSLY IT'S PASTED
ALL THE MUSTER IT HAS TO PASS
ALONG THE WAY.
IS THERE ANY GUESS YOU MIGHT
HAVE AS TO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF
STUFF THAT IS ON THE AMAZON SITE
THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY PAST MUSTER.

Rachel says IT DEPENDS IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AMAZON CANADA OR AMAZON.COM.
BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE FROM WHEN
WE FIRST WERE WORKING ON
AMAZON.CA, IT WAS THE MAJORITY
OF ITEMS.
I CAN'T SAY THE EXACT AMOUNT.
BUT THE MAJORITY OF ITEMS HADN'T
BEEN CHECKED.
I CAN'T SAY WHETHER OR NOT THEY
WERE ACTUALLY COMPLIANT, BUT THE
MAJORITY OF ITEMS WERE NOT
CHECKED.
THERE WAS ONE SITUATION THAT
CAME TO US WHERE A CUSTOMER
COMPLAINED THAT THE ITEM WAS NOT
CSA CERTIFIED, SO IT SHOULD HAVE
A LITTLE SIGN ON THE BACK THAT
IT SAYS UL AND A C AND U.S. OR
IT SHOULD BE CERTIFIED OR
ANOTHER LEGITIMATE ACCREDITATION
BODY.
ALL I HAD TO DO WAS LOOK AT IT
AND TELL THAT IT WASN'T ACTUALLY
COMPLIANT AND IT HAD SOLD DOZENS
OF UNITS TO CANADIANS AND THERE
WAS NO CHECK BEFOREHAND.
AND SO I IMMEDIATELY TURNED IT
OFF, OF COURSE.
BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH A
REACTIVE SYSTEM IS THAT THERE
ISN'T ANYONE CHECKING THAT.
EVEN IF IT'S SOMETHING AS SIMPLE
AS JUST LOOKING AT THE PACKAGING
AND SEEING THAT IT ISN'T
ACTUALLY CERTIFIED.
THAT DOESN'T EVEN ADDRESS THE
ISSUE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE
COUNTERFEITING THOSE
CERTIFICATIONS AND THEY AREN'T
ACTUALLY REAL.
SO YOU HAVE ONE PROBLEM OF
IGNORANCE, OF PEOPLE SHIPPING
THINGS TO CANADA BECAUSE OF THIS
KIND OF WEIRD BELIEF THAT IT'S A
51ST STATE SO IT'S TOTALLY OKAY
TO SHIP U.S. STUFF TO CANADA.
IT'S ALSO THE PROBLEM OF
MALICIOUS ACTORS WHO ARE
DELIBERATELY TRYING TO BRING IT
IN AND NOT JUST COPYING SOMEONE
ELSE'S BRAND BUT PUTTING A
RANDOM BRAND ON IT BECAUSE
CONSUMERS DON'T THINK BECAUSE
SOME RANDOM BRAND ON AMAZON
PROBABLY HASN'T BEEN CHECKED
EITHER.

Steve says GEORGINA, IF WE LOOK
AT THIS STUFF AND WE ASSUME IT'S
BEEN CHECKED BY AUTHORITIES AND
WE ASSUME IT'S SAFE, BUT MAYBE
IT ISN'T, HOW... HOW ARE WE
SUPPOSED TO KNOW?
HOW DOES AN ORDINARY CONSUMER
DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT
SOMETHING IS REAL OR FAKE?

Georgina says WELL, IT'S A CHALLENGE.
NO QUESTION.
BUT IF YOU'RE AN INFORMED
CONSUMER, YOU'LL HAVE SOME
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT IS
YOU'RE BUYING.
SO IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, A PRETTY
EXPENSIVE PRODUCT OR SOMETHING
THAT YOU'VE WORKED HARD TO BUY
AND PAY FOR, A LUXURY GOOD OR
SOMETHING OF SOME SIGNIFICANCE,
YOU MIGHT GO TO THE WEBSITE THAT
IS THE AUTHORIZED WEBSITE FOR
THAT PRODUCT AND DO A BIT OF A
COMPARE.
HOW MUCH IS IT, YOU KNOW,
IN-STORE OR ON THE STORE'S, YOU
KNOW, WEBSITE.

Steve says IF IT'S TOO GOOD TO
BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS.

Georgina says LOOK AT THE PRICE.
WHO ARE YOU BUYING IT FROM?
DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE BUYING IT
FROM?
IF IT'S A THIRD PARTY SELLER...
LIKE, WHO IS THAT PERSON?
MAKE SOME INQUIRY.
STOCK IMAGES ARE USED A LOT.
SO THE IMAGES ON THE WEBSITE CAN
LOOK LEGITIMATE AND PERFECT.
BUT WHEN THE PRODUCT COMES IN,
LOOK AT THE PACKAGING, COMPARE
IT TO THE REAL PRODUCT.
BE AN INFORMED CONSUMER.
AND ALSO BE MINDFUL OF THE
METHOD OF PAYMENT THAT YOU'RE
USING TO PURCHASE ONLINE.
YOU WANT TO PROTECT YOUR CREDIT
CARD INFORMATION.
YOU WANT TO PROTECT YOUR
PERSONAL INFORMATION AGAINST
THEFT OR FRAUD BY NEFARIOUS
USERS.
SO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE GOING TO
A WEBSITE AND THE... YOU KNOW,
YOU CAN'T PAY THROUGH PAYPAL AND
YOU CAN'T PAY THROUGH YOUR
CREDIT CARD AND THEY'RE
DIRECTING YOU TO ANOTHER SITE TO
PAY THROUGH A DIFFERENT METHOD
THAT MAY BE NOT AS SECURE, THAT
SHOULD BE A RED FLAG.
THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF RED
FLAGS.
AND JUST BE AN INFORMED
PURCHASER.

Steve says YOU HAVE
PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE ON THIS,
BUT I PRESUME AT SOME POINT
ALONG THE WAY YOU'VE BEEN A
CONSUMER AS WELL.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Georgina says MUCH TO MY HUSBAND'S CHAGRIN, I'M A BIG CONSUMER.

Steve says DO YOU THINK YOU'VE
EVER BEEN TAKEN?

Georgina says NOT RECENTLY.
BUT I DON'T SHOP LIKE MOST PEOPLE.
SOME OF THE FUN HAS BEEN SUCKED
OUT OF IT FOR ME.
BUT ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.
AND SO TOO MY FRIENDS, AND I WAS
JUST SPEAKING TO SOMEBODY WHO IS
IN THE HAIR BUSINESS TELLING ME
ABOUT A HAIR BLOW DRYER THAT WAS
BOUGHT ONLINE AND IT'S OF A
PROFESSIONAL QUALITY AND IT
FAILED AND HE BROUGHT THE REPAIR
PERSON IN.
IT WAS ONLY WHEN THEY OPENED IT
UP THAT THEY REALIZED IT WAS A
COUNTERFEIT.
SO, YOU KNOW, THAT COULD CAUSE A
FIRE.
THAT'S SOMEBODY'S PROFESSIONAL
REPUTATION.
I MEAN, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE AN
INFORMED CONSUMER.

Steve says BARRY, IS THERE
ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE IF
SOMEBODY IS SCAMMED OUT OF THEIR
MONEY OR RECEIVES A COUNTERFEIT
PRODUCT, OR IS IT TOO LATE AT
THAT POINT?

Barry says I HATE TO DO
A COMMERCIAL FOR THE CREDIT CARD
COMPANIES, BUT THE SAFEST METHOD
OF PURCHASING ANYTHING,
ANYWHERE, ANY TIME IS WITH YOUR
CREDIT CARD.
YOU HAVE HUGE PROTECTION ON YOUR
CREDIT CARD FOR NOT ONLY
COUNTERFEIT BUT NON-DELIVERY OF
GOODS, NON-DELIVERY OF GOODS AS
DESCRIBED.
AND IT'S BETTER THAN PAYPAL,
IT'S BETTER THAN ANY OTHER
PROTECTION METHOD OUT THERE.
SO IF YOU DO ORDER ONLINE AND
YOU THINK YOU'RE GETTING THE
REAL THING AND YOU DON'T, IF YOU
PAY BY CREDIT CARD, YOU CAN GET
ALL YOUR MONEY BACK.
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CALL THE
PHONE NUMBER ON THE BACK OF YOUR
CREDIT CARD AND CUSTOMER SERVICE
AT YOUR BANK WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU.

Steve says HOW MANY... I HATE
TO USE THE WORD VICTIMS, BUT I'M
NOT SURE WHAT THE BETTER WORD...

Georgina says THEY ARE VICTIMS.

Steve says VICTIMS.
HOW MANY VICTIMS, BARRY, DO YOU
THINK YOU HAVE HELPED THROUGH
YOUR PROFESSIONAL CONNECTION TO
THIS ISSUE?

Barry says SINCE VISA CAME OUT WITH ITS
NEW CHARGE-BACK POLICY IN 2012
AND THE FACT THAT WE PARTNERED
UP WITH THE CANADIAN BANKS IN
JANUARY 2013, WE'VE HELPED ABOUT
50,000 VICTIMS RECOVER ABOUT
50 MILLION DOLLARS.
WE AVERAGE ABOUT 7,000 VICTIMS A
YEAR.
LAST YEAR WAS A BUSY YEAR FOR
US.
WE HAD ABOUT 12,000 VICTIMS
UNTIL THEY CLOSED THAT CHINESE
BANK.
AND THAT'S .00-SOMETHING OF THE
CANADIAN POPULATION.
SO WE'RE NOT GETTING ANYWHERE
NEAR WHAT'S OUT THERE.
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW
THAT THEY HAVE PROTECTION ON
THEIR CREDIT CARD, AND ONE OF
THE KEY THINGS THAT WE'RE TRYING
TO DO IS EDUCATE THE PUBLIC TO
MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE AWARE OF
THAT PROTECTION.
IF THEY HAVE ANY PROBLEMS, TO
CALL THAT NUMBER ON THE BACK OF
THEIR CREDIT CARD.

Steve says JAY GREENE, LET ME
GIVE YOU THE LAST 30 SECONDS.
IT'S A BIT OF AN OFFBEAT
QUESTIONS, BUT HERE GOES.
HOW MUCH DOES THE OWNER OF YOUR
NEWSPAPER LIKE WHEN YOU LOOK
INTO THE COMPANY THAT HE HAS FOUNDED?

Jay says I'VE NEVER
HEARD WORD THAT HE'S EVER HAD
ANY OPINIONS ABOUT MY STORIES.
I'VE TALKED WITH HIM, YOU KNOW,
IN ADVANCE OF STORIES, BUT THE
POLICY AND EVERYTHING THAT THE
FOLKS WHO ARE HIGHER UP THE FOOD
CHAIN THAN I AM AT THE
WASHINGTON POST WILL SAY IS HE'S
NOT INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE
NEWS-GATHERING, NEWS REPORTING
OPERATIONS SO WE GET TO REPORT
WHAT WE GET TO REPORT.
AND MY LIFE IS WRITING ABOUT
AMAZON THE SAME WAY MY
COLLEAGUES WRITE ABOUT FACEBOOK
OR GOOGLE OR PRESIDENT TRUMP OR
SPEAKER PELOSI OR THE PENTAGON.
THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

The caption changes to "Producer: Katie O'Connor, @KA_OConnor."

Steve says GOTCHA. GOOD TO KNOW.
I WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU FOR
COMING ON TVO TONIGHT AND
SHARING YOUR WISDOM WITH US.
JAY GREENE, THE TECHNOLOGY
REPORTER WITH THE WASHINGTON
POST, RACHEL JOHNSON GREER,
FOUNDER OF CASCADIA SELLER
SOLUTIONS, THEY WERE BOTH
IN SEATTLE, BARRY ELLIOTT WAS IN
NORTHERN ONTARIO IN SUDBURY.
HE'S A CRIMINAL ANALYST WITH THE
RCMP'S CRIMINAL INTELLIGENCE
ANALYTICAL UNIT, AND GEORGINA
DANZIG, HERE IN OUR STUDIO,
A LAWYER SPECIALIZING IN
ANTICOUNTERFEITING, A PARTNER
WITH KESTENBERG SIEGAL LIPKUS.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU ALL ON
"THE AGENDA" TONIGHT.
THANK SO MUCH.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Amazon's Counterfeit Problem