Transcript: Should Billionaires Exist? | Dec 09, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and gray plaid tie.

A caption on screen reads "Should billionaires exist? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says DEMOCRATIC
PRESIDENTIAL HOPEFULS BERNIE
SANDERS AND ELIZABETH WARREN
HAVE MADE NO BONES ABOUT GOING
AFTER THE ULTRA ELITE -
MEGA-MILLIONAIRES AND
BILLIONAIRES.
THAT'S ALSO THE STOMPING GROUNDS
OF OUR NEXT GUEST.
ANAND GIRIDHARADAS IS AUTHOR,
MOST RECENTLY, OF "WINNERS TAKE
ALL: THE ELITE CHARADE OF
CHANGING THE WORLD."
HE IS AN EDITOR-AT-LARGE FOR
TIME, AND A POLITICAL ANALYST
FOR MSNBC, AND HE JOINS US NOW
FOR MORE.

Anand is in his thirties, with spiky gray hair and a stubble. He's wearing a black leather jacket and a black tee.
A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover is white, with a drawing of golden coins with the world map engraved on them.

Steve continues IT'S SO GOOD TO HAVE
YOU BACK HERE.

Anand says GOOD TO
BE BACK HERE.

Steve says I THINK IT WAS TEN
YEARS AGO YOU WERE ON THIS SHOW.

Anand says ONE OF MY FIRST TV
APPEARANCES EVER.

Steve says AND WE DIDN'T RUIN IT.

Anand says IT DIDN'T SHUT DOWN MY TV
CAREER.

Steve says YOU'VE BEEN ON
NUMEROUS TIMES SINCE THEN.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK.
LET ME READ SOMETHING THAT
MATT FLEGENHEIMER WROTE IN
THE NEW YORK TIMES
BACK ON
NOVEMBER 8TH. HE WROTE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Hard times for billionaires." The quote reads "There is probably never a bad time to be a billionaire. But this, at least, is an especially complicated one.
Across politics, technology and popular culture, the wisdom and purpose of the extremely wealthy is being questioned as never before."
Quoted from Matt Flegenheim, The New York Times. November 8, 2019.

Steve says DO YOU SEE THIS
SHIFT TAKING PLACE?

The caption changes to "Anand Giridharadas. Author, 'Winners take all.'"
Then, it changes again to "The turning tide."

Anand says YES.
WHAT WAS VERY INTERESTING IN
THAT PHRASING... I LOVE THAT
PIECE... THE WISDOM AND PURPOSE
OF THESE BILLIONAIRES BEING
QUESTIONED.
WHAT'S SO ELEGANT IN THAT PHRASE
IS, IT'S QUESTIONING BOTH THE
WISDOM OF THE BILLIONAIRES, AS
IN THEIR WISDOM, BUT ALSO THE
PURPOSE IN HAVING BILLIONAIRES
AS A SOCIETY, NOT JUST A
BILLIONAIRES SENSE OF THEIR OWN
PURPOSE BUT OUR SENSE OF PURPOSE
IN ALLOWING FORTUNES LIKE THAT
TO BE AMASSED AS A PRIORITY,
BEFORE WE TAKE CARE OF
PRIORITIES LIKE MAKING SURE MOST
PEOPLE HAVE THE RUDIMENTS OF A
DECENT LIFE.
AND OVER THE LAST 30 TO 40 YEARS
IN THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE
PRACTISED A SOCIAL MODEL THAT IS
BILLIONAIRE-FRIENDLY FIRST.
ALLOW PEOPLE TO RUN COMPANIES IN
WAYS THAT MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS
POSSIBLE BY CUTTING EVERY SOCIAL
CORNER IMAGINABLE, PAY PEOPLE AS
LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, PAY AS
LITTLE TAXES AS POSSIBLE, USE
CARIBBEAN ISLANDS TO... AND A
TAX MANOEUVRE, NOT THAT
DELICIOUS.
BOTTLE PUBLIC POLICY.
IT'S GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR
FRIENDS, NOT GOOD FOR THE
COMMONS.
AND THEN WHAT YOU GET IS A
DEFANGED GOVERNMENT THAT'S NOT
ABLE TO DO BIG THINGS FOR
PEOPLE.
MULTIPLYING SOCIAL PROBLEMS,
BECAUSE OF THAT DEFANGED
GOVERNMENT AND BECAUSE OF ALL
THE WAYS YOU'RE EMPLOYING
PEOPLE, ET CETERA.
AND THEN BILLIONAIRES COMING
ALONG AND CEOs AND OTHERS
COMING ALONG AND SAYING: WHAT A
SHAME.
WHAT A SHAME.
THESE FESTERING SOCIAL PROBLEMS,
MAKES MY HEART HURT.
AND THIS GOVERNMENT, NOT ABLE TO
SOLVE IT?
WELL, THAT'S A SHAME.
LET ME STEP UP.
I CAN FIX IT.

Steve says WE HAVE BEEN
TALKING, THOUGH, ABOUT THE 1 percent
EVER SINCE THE GREAT RECESSION
BROKE.
SO WHY DO YOU THINK THERE'S
ANYTHING PARTICULARLY DIFFERENT
RIGHT NOW?

The caption changes to "Anand Giridharadas, @AnandWrites."

Anand says FIRST OF ALL, MOVEMENTS TAKE
TIME TO BUILD, RIGHT?
THERE WERE SEATTLE PROTESTS IN
1999, OCCUPY WAS IN 2011.
I THINK THE FINANCIAL CRISIS IN
2008, 2009 HAD AN ENORMOUS ROLE
IN SHATTERING NOT ONLY
OPPORTUNITY, PARTICULARLY FOR
YOUNG PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES NEVER
WERE ABLE TO GET OFF THE GROUND,
THEN OR SINCE, BUT ALSO
SHATTERING A CERTAIN MYTHOLOGY
THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS
PRACTISED BUT ALSO PREACHED
AROUND THE WORLD.
THE MYTHOLOGY THAT THE BEST
SOCIETY IS ACHIEVED BY LEAVING
ENTREPRENEURS ALONE.
THAT IF YOU DO THAT ONE THING,
ALL OTHER GOOD THINGS FLOW.

Steve says ON THE FACE OF IT,
IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A TERRIBLY
DUMB IDEA.
IF YOU LET THE BEST AND
BRIGHTEST AND SMARTEST GO OUT
AND DO THEIR THING, WE'LL HAVE A
BETTER SOCIETY.
ON THE FACE OF IT.

Anand says ENTREPRENEURS ARE JUST ONE
TYPE OF PERSON IN SOCIETY
PURSUING ONE TYPE OF GOOD, WHICH
IS MONEY AND GROWTH.
YOU KNOW, IT TURNS OUT THAT WHAT
TEACHERS DO IS NOT MOTIVATED BY
THAT KIND OF CALCULATION AND
ACTUALLY TURNS OUT TO BE REALLY,
REALLY IMPORTANT TO A CIVILIZED
SOCIETY.
I'M SURE SOMEONE AS INTELLIGENT
AS YOU COULD MAKE MORE MONEY
DOING A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS IN
SOCIETY BUT YOU DO WHAT YOU DO
BECAUSE IT'S THE PURSUIT OF THE
TRUTH AND FOSTERING DEBATE.
IF WE ABANDONED, IF PEOPLE WENT
INTO MEDICINE OR PUBLIC SERVICE,
IF WE ABANDONED THAT, PURSUIT OF
MONEY IS AN END GOAL, WE'D HAVE
AN IMPOVERISHED SOCIETY, WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES
AND TO VARYING DEGREES IN OTHER
PLACES, AS MONEY BECAME THE
LODESTAR, IT BECAME MORE THAN
THE ECONOMY, IT BECAME THE
CULTURE TO THE POINT THAT IN
DATING IN AMERICA PEOPLE TALK
ABOUT OPTIMIZATION, RIGHT?
PEOPLE USE CORPORATE JARGON TO
DISCUSS PERSONAL LIFE.
THERE'S NOTHING BEYOND THE REALM
OF THIS KIND OF BUSINESS
THINKING, AND I WROTE THE BOOK
TO QUESTION THE IDEA THAT THE
VERY PEOPLE WHO PROSECUTED THIS
BUSINESS REVOLUTION, THIS LEAVE
ENTREPRENEURS ALONE REVOLUTION,
CAN NOW MIRACULOUSLY REINVENT
THEMSELVES AS THE SOLUTION TO
THE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE CAUSED.

Steve says I APPRECIATE THAT.
BUT I DO WANT TO KNOW HOW FAR
YOU WOULD GO TO... WELL, LET ME
PUT IT THIS WAY: BERNIE SANDERS
Anand says BILLIONAIRES SHOULD NOT
EXIST.
ARE YOU PREPARED TO GO THAT FAR?

Anand says I THINK HE'S RIGHT.
AND I WOULD SAY THIS: WE HAVE
TRIED THE OTHER WAY FOR A WHILE...

Steve says WHICH IS LEAVE THEM
ALONE TO DO EVERYTHING.

Anand says RIGHT.
HAVING BILLIONAIRES, WE'VE TRIED
THE HAVING BILLIONAIRES
APPROACH, AND IT TURNS OUT IN
THE UNITED STATES TO BE PRETTY
INCONSISTENT WITH THE
FLOURISHING OF MOST PEOPLE.
I'M INTELLECTUALLY HONEST ENOUGH
TO SAY LET'S HAVE ANOTHER
APPROACH, A REGULATORY AND TAX
STRUCTURE THAT WOULD MAKE IT
IMPOSSIBLE OR AT LEAST MUCH
HARDER TO BECOME A BILLIONAIRE,
AND LET'S SEE WHAT WE GET.
IF AFTER 10 OR 15 YEARS THAT'S
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND BAD FOR
MOST PEOPLE, I'D BE HAPPY TO
COME BACK ON THE SHOW AND
ADVOCATE FOR THE REINSTATEMENT
OF BILLIONAIRES.
BUT I THINK WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT
A MYTH THAT HAS UPHELD THE IDEA
THAT IT'S GOOD TO HAVE
BILLIONAIRES.
THE MYTH IS WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM
IS GOOD FOR EVERYBODY ELSE,
RIGHT?
IT'S THE WIN-WIN IDEOLOGY...

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says DOES ANYBODY BELIEVE
THAT ANYMORE?

Anand says I THINK PEOPLE ARE STARTING
TO NOT BELIEVE IT IN DROVES.
BUT IT HAS BEEN A DEFINING MYTH
OVER OF THE LAST 40 YEARS.
AND AT THE HEART OF THE MYTH IS
THIS IDEA THAT IF YOU JUST HAVE
BUSINESS FLOURISHING OR THESE
PEOPLE DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO
DO, EVERYBODY'S WELFARE WILL
INCREASE.
AND I THINK WHAT PEOPLE ARE
WAKING UP TO... AND MY OWN
ATTEMPT TO INTERVENE IN THAT
DISCUSSION... IS TO SAY, IN
CERTAIN MOMENTS IN HISTORY,
PEOPLE ARE NOT DOWN BELOW
BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAILED TO JOIN
THE PEOPLE UP ABOVE, THEY'RE
DOWN BELOW BECAUSE PEOPLE UP
ABOVE ARE STANDING ON THEIR
NECKS, AND WHEN YOU ARE IN A
SITUATION LIKE THAT IN A
SOCIETY, THE ONLY SOLUTION TO
LIFTING PEOPLE UP IS TO ACTUALLY
STOP PEOPLE STANDING ON THEIR
NECKS, AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO
HAPPEN WITH THEM VOLUNTARILY
SIGNING STATEMENTS TO HAVE
BETTER BEHAVED BUSINESS, IT'S
NOT GOING TO HAVE THROUGH THEM
GIVING ONE PAIR OF SHOES FOR
EVERY PAIR OF SHOES THEY SELL TO
YOU, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
THROUGH IMPACT INVESTING WHERE
YOU ALSO FACTOR IN SOCIAL
RETURNS, IT'S NOT GOING TO
HAPPEN THROUGH SOCIAL ENTERPRISE
OR PHILANTHROPY, IT'S GOING TO
HAPPEN THE OLD FASHIONED WAY
WHICH IS DEMOCRATICALLY, THROUGH
TAXATION AND POLICIES AND LAWS.

Steve says IS IT AMORAL TO BE A
BILLIONAIRE?

Anand says I WAS CALLED TO THE OXFORD
UNION TO ENGAGE IN A DEBATE
ABOUT THAT, AND THE OXFORD UNION
I'M TOLD IS FAMOUS FOR FRAMING
THESE DEBATES IN A WAY THAT
FAVOURS THE CONSERVATIVE LANDED
GENTRY SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT
BECAUSE THEY'RE THE OXFORD
UNION.
I WAS ASKED TO ARGUE THIS AMORAL
TO BE A BILLIONAIRE POSITION AND
I ARGUED THAT IT IS.
IT'S PROBABLY A TOUCH MORE
STRENUOUS CLAIM THAN I WOULD
MAKE.
I THINK IT'S AMORAL FOR A
SOCIETY TO ALLOW THERE TO BE
BILLIONAIRES, AS CONGRESSWOMAN
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ HAS
SAID WHEN ASKED THAT QUESTION.
THE REASON I ARGUED IT IS AMORAL
TO BE A BILLIONAIRE MAY BE
AMORAL TO BE A BILLIONAIRE IS
IF YOU ARE A BENEFICIARY OF A
SYSTEM THAT PREDICTABLY,
RELIABLY FAVOURS YOUR CONTINUED
HOARDING OF RESOURCES WHILE MOST
PEOPLE AREN'T ABLE TO HAVE THE
RUDIMENTS OF A DECENT LIFE AND
IF YOU ARE NOT DOING EVERYTHING
WITHIN YOUR POWER TO DISMANTLE
THAT SITUATION YOU'RE ON TOP OF,
YOU BECOME COMPLICIT IN THAT
DECISION.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYBODY
WHO IS A BILLIONAIRE IS THE SAME
LEVEL OF SINNER, IT DOESN'T MEAN
EVERYBODY HAS COMMITTED FRAUD TO
BECOME A MILLIONAIRE, THERE ARE
A WHOLE BUNCH OF STORIES, RIGHT?
AND THE WEALTH OF THE SACKLER
FAMILY, MEMBERS OF WHICH ARE
BEHIND THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC IN
THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS
DIFFERENT FROM SERENA WILLIAMS,
WHO IS REALLY GOOD AT TENNIS.
BUT BOTH BENEFIT, IF YOU ARE A
RESPONSIBLE CITIZEN, YOU HAVE TO
SPEND YOUR TIME FIGHTING
AGAINST.

Steve says I WAS WONDERING IF
YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE A
HIERARCHY BETWEEN THOSE WHO
INHERITED THEIR BILLIONS VERSUS
ZUCKERBERG OR GATES WHO WENT OUT
AND MADE IT ON THEIR OWN.
DO YOU MAKE A DISTINCTION?

Anand says FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A
DISTINCTION THAT BECOMES
COMPLICATED.
IF GATES MADE IT ON HIS OWN, HE
WENT TO ONE OF THE ONLY HIGH
SCHOOLS IN AMERICA THAT HAD
COMPUTERS AT THAT MOMENT, WHICH
IS NOT SOMETHING HE DID ON HIS
OWN.
YOU KNOW, MARK ZUCKERBERG
HAPPENED TO BE A WHITE GUY FROM
UPSTATE NEW YORK AND I DON'T
THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT
HIS DEMOGRAPHIC IS THE ONLY
DEMOGRAPHIC GENERALLY WHO
STARTED THESE BIG TECH
COMPANIES.

Steve says I'M NOT SAYING THEY
DIDN'T HAVE SOMETHING GOING FOR
THEM...

Anand says RIGHT.
THE NOTION THEY'RE SELF MADE IS
COMPLICATED.
WE'RE ALL SOCIALLY MADE.
WE ARE ALL A MIX OF THE
SOCIALLY-MADE AND SELF-MADE, AND
I THINK PART OF WHAT BOTHERS ME
ABOUT THE BILLIONAIRE NARRATIVE,
SELF-MAKING, IS THESE ARE
ACTUALLY PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT MORE
THAN MOST PEOPLE FROM THE
HIGH-QUALITY STRUCTURES AND
SYSTEMS LIKE IN CANADA OR THE
UNITED STATES, RIGHT?
THIS IS SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T
TALK ABOUT.
LIKE A REGULAR PERSON BENEFITS,
YOU KNOW, A REGULAR AMOUNT FROM
CANADA OR THE UNITED STATES OR
ANY OTHER COUNTRY HAVING GOOD
COURTS AND WHATEVER.
BUT IF YOU OWN FACEBOOK, YOU
REALLY, REALLY BENEFIT FROM THE
UNITED STATES HAVING ONE OF THE
GREATEST COURT SYSTEMS EVER
INVENTED IN THE WORLD.
YOU REALLY BENEFIT WAY MORE THAN
A REGULAR PERSON.
YOU REALLY BENEFIT FROM THE
SECURITY AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION
BEING WHAT IT IS RELATIVE TO THE
ONE, ITS COUNTERPART IN SOMALIA.
LIKE, IF YOU ARE AT GOLDMAN
SACHS, YOU MAY COMPLAIN ABOUT
REGULATION, BUT ACTUALLY
EVERYTHING YOU ARE ABLE TO DO
AND THE TRUST YOU'RE ABLE TO
HAVE WHEN YOU PICK UP THE PHONE
AND PLACE A TRADE IS ENTIRELY
BASED ON THESE PUBLIC SYSTEMS.
SO THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT
WAY MORE THAN AVERAGE PEOPLE
FROM THE REGULATORY
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE ALL PAY
FOR, AND THEN THEY HAVE THE GALL
TO TURN AROUND AND MALIGN THAT
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THEY'VE SO
LEVERAGED AND SO USED, JUST IN
THOSE MOMENTS WHEN IT IS
EXPENSIVE FOR THEM.
IT'S EXTREMELY UNGRATEFUL, AND I
THINK PART OF WHAT I'M
ADVOCATING PEOPLE NEED TO DO IS
TO OFFER THE PLUTOCRATS OF THE
WORLD, OF OUR COUNTRIES, A DEAL.
HERE IS THE COST OF DOING
BUSINESS IN CANADA OR THE U.S.
HERE IS THE TAX RATE.
HERE'S THE MINIMUM WAGE.
WE THINK WE HAVE A PRETTY GREAT
COUNTRY HERE.
IF YOU DISAGREE, IF YOU WANT TO
TAKE FACEBOOK ELSEWHERE, IF
THERE'S A WEALTH TAX YOU DON'T
LIKE, NO PROBLEM.

Steve says LET ME PUT THIS TO
YOU.
DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE ELIZABETH
WARREN HAS PROPOSED A WEALTH
TAX, 2 percent ON ASSETS OVER 50
MILLION dollars. 3 percent ON ASSETS WORTH MORE
THAN A BILLION DOLLARS.
BILLIONAIRE INVESTOR LEON
COOPERMAN WROTE THIS IN A
LETTER TO ELIZABETH WARREN
IN OCTOBER. HE WROTE:
ON NOVEMBER 5TH, J.P. MORGAN
CHASE CEO JAMIE DIMON SAID...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Billionaires versus Warren." The quote reads "Leon Cooperman. October 30. However much it resonates with your base, your vilification of the rich is misguided, ignoring, among other things, the sources of their wealth and the substantial contributions to society which they already, unprompted by you, make...
Leon Cooperman. October 23. I believe in a progressive income tax and the rich paying more. But this is the effing American dream she is sh---ing on.
Jamie Dimon. November 5. She uses some pretty harsh words, you know, some would say vilifies successful people. I think we should applaud successful people."

Steve says LET'S PULL THIS
APART A LITTLE BIT HERE.
THE WARREN WEALTH TAX.
WHAT DO YOU THINK FOR STARTERS?

The caption changes to "Hashtag NotAllBillionaires."

Anand says A COUPLE THINGS.
FIRST OF ALL, WHEN JAMIE DIMON
CONTACTED ME TO...

Steve says I WAS GOING TO GET
TO THAT.

Anand says CHALLENGE SOME OF MY
PUBLIC COMMENTS ON THESE KINDS
OF ISSUES AND HE HAD NO PROBLEM
VILIFYING HARD-WORKING PEOPLE
WHEN I SUGGESTED TO HIM THAT A
LOT OF WORKERS ARE EXPLOITED IN
AMERICA BY THE CEOs THAT HE
ADMIRES AND PALS AROUND WITH AND
HE SAID, NO, THEY JUST HAVE A
PROBLEM TO WORK.
HE DOESN'T HAVE A PROBLEM
VILIFYING DOWN, HE HAS A PROBLEM
WITH PEOPLE VILIFYING
BILLIONAIRES.
IF YOU THINK THAT A 3 percent TAX ONLY
ON THOSE ASSETS YOU HAVE ABOVE
A BILLION IS VILIFICATION, YOU
NEED TO GET OUT MORE. YOU MAY
BE LIVING IN SUCH A COSSETED,
COTTON BALL BUBBLE THAT YOU
ACTUALLY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT
IT MEANS TO BE... TO HAVE
ANYBODY TELL YOU THE TRUTH, 3 percent
IS A LOWER PERCENT THAN ALL
THESE PEOPLE MAKE IN THEIR
ANNUAL RETURNS ON CAPITAL, OKAY?
SHE IS LITERALLY NOT EVEN... I
ACTUALLY DISAGREE WITH HER PLAN
IN THAT SENSE.

Steve says YOU WANT IT HIGHER.

Anand says I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK
ANYBODY'S FORTUNE WOULD GET
SMALLER BECAUSE NOW SHE HAS
RAISED IT TO 6 BECAUSE OF HER
MEDICARE FOR ALL PLAN.
BUT EVEN 6, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE
HAVE A RATE OF RETURN ON CAPITAL
THAT IS IN EXCESS... IT'S IN THE
TENS OR TEENS IN MANY CASES.
AND SO THE IDEA THAT A PERSON
WHO IS PROPOSING TO MERELY
REDUCE THE RATE AT WHICH YOU
CONTINUE TO GET RICHER THAN
OTHER PEOPLE IS VILIFYING YOU?
YOU'VE GOT TO GET OUT MORE.
WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING...
THERE'S A COUPLE OF TALKING
POINTS WE'RE SEEING EMERGING
UNDER WHAT I CALL KIND OF THE
GREAT PLUTE FREAK-OUT.
YOU CITE SOME OF THEM.
I WOULD CITE MICHAEL BLOOMBERG
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT OUT OF THE
SAME MOTIVATION.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG IS MAYBE THE
FIRST PERSON IN HISTORY TO RUN
FOR PRESIDENT AS A FORM OF TAX
EVASION, RIGHT?
JUST TO LITERALLY AVOID THIS
NOMINEE WHO MIGHT TAX YOU 3 percent.
WHAT IS SO INTERESTING... YOU'VE
SEEN THE TALKING POINTS.
TALKING POINT NUMBER ONE IS THE
ONE YOU CITED.
YOU'RE VILIFYING, DEMONIZING,
CLASS WAR.
WHEN, IN FACT, WARREN ACTUALLY
GETS ATTACKED ON THE LEFT FOR
NOT GOING AFTER THESE PEOPLE
HARD ENOUGH, FOR SAYING SHE IS A
CAPITALIST, FOR SAYING SHE
BELIEVES IN CAPITALISM.
SECOND, THE TALKING POINT IS:
HEY, THIS IS NOT BAD FOR US.
WE'RE NOT ABOUT US.
THIS IS BAD FOR YOU.
IF YOU TAX US BILLIONAIRES MORE,
YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO GET HURT.
HERE'S WHY.
ZUCKERBERG SAYS THERE'S GOING TO
BE NO DIVERSITY IN MEDICAL
RESEARCH BECAUSE ALL THESE RICH
PEOPLE ARE FUNDING DIFFERENT
MEDICAL RESEARCH.
APPARENTLY THE KIND OF DIVERSITY
MARK ZUCKERBERG BELIEVES IN IS
MEDICAL RESEARCH.
THERE WILL BE NONE OF THAT. LEON
COOPERMAN SAYS ALL THIS MONEY ON
CHARITY, WON'T BE ABLE TO DO
THAT.

Steve says GIVE TO THE ARTS,
ET CETERA.

Anand says RIGHT.
SO THIS IS WHAT I WOULD CALL
ECONOMIC CONCERN TROLLING, WHERE
INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING THE
TRUTH, WHICH IS, HEY, I KIND OF
WANT TO KEEP MY MONEY, THEY MAKE
UP THIS WHOLE ELABORATE THING
OF, IF YOU TAX US MORE, IT'S
GOING TO BE BAD FOR YOU, EVEN
THOUGH WE NOW KNOW, AND THIS IS
REMARKABLE, YOU LOOK AT THE
WARREN PLAN OR SOME OF BERNIE
SANDERS' PLAN, LIKE TAXING
100,000 PEOPLE, WHICH IS A
REALLY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN
A COUNTRY OF 350 MILLION PEOPLE,
YOU COULD FUND PROGRAMS THAT
WOULD TRANSFORM THE LIVES OF
EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN.
WIPE OUT STUDENT DEBT.
FUND UNIVERSAL FREE COLLEGE AT
PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES.
UNIVERSAL DAY CARE... LIKE,
THERE'S NO PERSON IN AMERICA WHO
WOULDN'T HAVE THEIR LIFE
ALTERED, INCLUDING AFFLUENT
PEOPLE AND VERY POOR PEOPLE AND
EVERYBODY IN BETWEEN BY THESE
PLANS.
THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN DO THAT
ENTIRELY, MULTIPLE THINGS LIKE
THAT, AND MEDICARE FOR ALL UNDER
WARREN'S PLAN BY TAXING 100,000,
TELLS YOU HOW MUCH MONEY THOSE
100 THOUSAND PEOPLE HAVE UNDER
THEIR MATTRESSES, RIGHT?
MY GUESS WOULD BE IN THIS
COUNTRY YOU COULDN'T DO THAT
MUCH SOCIAL SPENDING JUST FROM
TAXING THE TOP 100,000 PEOPLE.
MAYBE YOU COULD.
MY GUESS IS YOU DON'T HAVE THAT
LEVEL OF CONCENTRATION.
THE FACT THAT YOU COULD DO IT IS
EVIDENCE OF THE PROBLEM.

Steve says WELL, THE PANAMA
PAPERS WAS A BIG DEAL A FEW
YEARS AGO.
AT LEAST IT WAS A BIG DEAL IN
THE PLACEMENT IT GOT IN THE
MEDIA FOR A FEW DAYS AND IT
CERTAINLY REFLECTED ON ALL OF
THE WEALTH THAT IS BEING
SHELTERED IN TAX HAVENS
OFFSHORE.
IT WAS A BIG MOMENT IN
INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM.
AND IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS GOING
TO LEAD TO SOMETHING, AND IT
ENDED UP LEADING TO NOTHING.
AND I'M WONDERING WHY.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Anand says YOU KNOW, I THINK IT GOES
BACK TO YOUR OCCUPY THING.
I DON'T THINK ANY OF THESE
THINGS ON THEIR OWN LEADS TO
SOMETHING.
I THINK THIS IS A CUMULATIVE
EFFECT.
I THINK THE PANAMA PAPERS ARE
BAKED INTO WHY YOU AND I ARE
HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.
THE WAY OCCUPY IS PART OF WHY
YOU AND I ARE HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION.
AND WHY THE 2008 FINANCIAL
CRISIS IS PART OF WHY YOU AND I
ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.
TO ME WHAT HAS SLOWLY HAPPENED
IN AN ACCRETIVE WAY IS THAT
VARIOUS STORIES HAVE LIKE
NEEDLES STARTED TO KIND OF PRICK
THE BALLOONS OF A BELIEF SYSTEM
THAT SAID ENTREPRENEURS ARE
HEROES, GOVERNMENT IS BAD,
GOVERNMENT IS BAD, AND THIS MAY
NOT RESONATE IN CANADA AS MUCH,
BUT IN THE UNITED STATES WE
REALLY HAVE BEEN ON THE
RECEIVING END OF THIS 40-YEAR
IDEOLOGICAL WAR THAT THE
GOVERNMENT IS TERRIBLE.
GOVERNMENT IS EVIL.
RIGHT?
WE CALL IT THE DMV, I DON'T KNOW
WHAT YOU CALL IT HERE...

Steve says THE DEPARTMENT OF
MOTOR VEHICLES DOWN THERE.

Anand says WHERE YOU GET YOUR DRIVER'S
LICENCE.
ALL OF GOVERNMENT IS SORT OF
CAST AS BEING LIKE THE STODGY,
SLOW DMV.
AND IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
THE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, I OFTEN
SAY TO THESE PHILANTHROPISTS WHO
TALK ABOUT THEIR WORK CHANGING
THE WORLD.
WHICH RICH PERSON OR COMPANY HAS
DONE MORE FOR OLD PEOPLE THAN
SOCIAL SECURITY DID FOR OLD
PEOPLE?
WHICH RICH PERSON OR COMPANY HAS
DONE MORE THAN WOMEN THAN
SUFFRAGE DID FOR WOMEN?
WHICH RICH PERSON OR COMPANY DID
MORE FOR BLACK PEOPLE THAN THE
VOTING SYSTEM IN THE UNITED
STATES?
THIS IS A FANTASY THAT WE CHANGE
THE WORLD BY HAVING RICH PEOPLE
MAKING AS MUCH MONEY AS
POSSIBLE, BY BEING MISERLY, AND
THROWING COINS AT A FRACTION OF
THE VICTIMS OF THEIR PRACTICES.

Steve says I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE
SAYING ABOUT CANADA... OF
COURSE, ALL OUR HOSPITALS HERE
ARE PUBLICLY FUNDING, ALL OUR
UNIVERSITIES HERE ARE PUBLICLY
FUNDED.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY PRIVATE
UNIVERSITIES IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO.

Anand says YOU DON'T?
WOW.

Steve says WELL, THEY'RE ALL
PRIVATELY RUN, THEIR GOVERNANCE
IS PRIVATE, THEY'RE ALL PUBLICLY
FUNDED.

Anand says CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU.

Steve says ON THE ONE HAND, WE
HAVE A MORE EGALITARIAN SOCIETY...
ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK
EVERYBODY WOULD HAVE TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE'RE A HECK OF
A LOT LESS DYNAMIC THAN THE
UNITED STATES IS AS WELL.
WILL THERE BE A PRICE TO BE PAID
DOWN THE ROAD FOR GOING AFTER
THESE PEOPLE?
WILL THEY LEAVE?
WILL THEY TAKE THEIR BALL AND GO
HOME, YOU KNOW, PICK UP THEIR
HOCKEY PUCK AND GO HOME?
ANY CONCERNS ABOUT THAT?

Anand says FIRST OF ALL, ON THAT, I AM
NOT A CARD MAN, BUT I'M WILLING
TO PLAY POKER WITH ANY OF THESE
BILLIONAIRES WHO ARE CLAIMING
THAT IF WE ENACT SOME OF THESE
POLICIES, THEY WOULD HAVE NO
CHOICE BUT TO GO, RIGHT, BECAUSE
THEY THINK IT'S GOING TO BECOME
VENEZUELA IF WE HAVE LIGHT RAIL
OR... I MEAN, LIKE, THEY
ACTUALLY SAY THINGS LIKE LIGHT
RAIL LEADING TO GULAGS AND...
AND I JUST CHALLENGE ANY OF
THESE FOLKS.
IF YOU REALLY... LIKE, I AM A
PATRIOT.
I ACTUALLY HAPPEN TO THINK THE
UNITED STATES IS A PHENOMENAL
COUNTRY, AND AS A BUSINESS, I
ACTUALLY AM NOT SURE ANY BIG
BUSINESS IN THE WORLD IS GOING
TO WANT TO NOT BE THERE, BUT,
HEY, IF YOU GUYS SAY WE'RE GOING
TO MAKE IT TOO DIFFICULT TO DO
BUSINESS IN THE UNITED STATES,
YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE, GO TO
SINGAPORE... COOL.
I'M GOING TO PLAY POKER ON THIS
ONE.
I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK THESE
PEOPLE ARE GOING ANYWHERE.

Steve says THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
LEAVE.

Anand says I DON'T THINK THEY'RE
LEAVING.
THE ONES WHO DO, GREAT.
IN TERMS OF THE DYNAMISM POINT.
I MEAN, MAYBE CANADA IS OR ISN'T
AS DYNAMIC AS THE UNITED STATES.
IT DEPENDS WHAT DYNAMIC MEANS.
I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW... YOU TELL
ME.
DO A LOT OF PEOPLE... WHEN
PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE A
BUSINESS IDEA, RIGHT?
YOU HAVE A JOB RIGHT HERE.
YOU'VE GOT A BUSINESS IDEA TO DO
SOMETHING ELSE, MAKE CUPCAKES,
DO WHATEVER IT IS YOU WANT TO
DO.
HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY
DON'T START THOSE BUSINESSES
BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF LOSING
THEIR HEALTH CARE?

Steve says WELL, THAT'S A FACT.
THAT'S A FACT. RIGHT.

Anand says ZERO.

Steve says ZERO. YES.

Anand says THEY MAY NOT START FOR OTHER
REASONS. YOU'VE GOT MILLIONS
OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY,
PRESUMABLY COOKING UP BUSINESS
IDEAS ALL THE TIME, AND YOU'RE
TELLING ME NONE OF THEM DON'T
START THAT BUSINESS.

Steve says NO BUT THE OTHER JOKE
IN CANADA HAS ALWAYS BEEN, YOU
KNOW, HOW DO YOU HAVE A SMALL
BUSINESS IN CANADA? YOU OPEN UP
A LARGE ONE AND YOU WAIT FIVE
YEARS. OKAY, WE HEAR THAT TOO.

Anand says BUT I THINK THIS IS PART OF
THE SECOND-HAND ANTI-GOVERNMENT
SMOKE... WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
SAYING IS REMARKABLE.
IN MY COUNTRY, I WOULD SAY
MOST PEOPLE WITH A BUSINESS
IDEA, WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE, THE
NUMBER ONE REASON MOST PEOPLE
DON'T DO IT IS BECAUSE WHAT ARE
YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT HEALTH
CARE FOR THAT YEAR?
SO WHO'S DYNAMIC?
I'M TRYING TO PROBLEMATIZE SOME
OF THESE ASSUMPTIONS.
I DON'T THINK THE UNITED STATES
IS AS DYNAMIC AS YOU THINK.
IT'S A SOCIETY IN WHICH MOST
PEOPLE LIVE IN TERROR OF
FOLLOWING THEIR DREAMS.
IT'S A SOCIETY IN WHICH GOING TO
COLLEGE IS NOW A POTENTIALLY
ECONOMICALLY FATAL DECISION FOR
MANY PEOPLE.
IT'S A SOCIETY IN WHICH, YOU
KNOW, DARING TO DO SOMETHING
GREAT IS A RECIPE FOR FALLING ON
YOUR FACE FOR MANY PEOPLE AND
NOT GETTING BACK UP.
SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT A SOCIETY
THAT ACTUALLY ASSURES A CERTAIN
LEVEL OF DECENCY AND DIGNITY AND
A HORIZON FOR THE FUTURE FOR
PEOPLE MAY BE MORE DYNAMIC,
DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DEFINE
DYNAMISM.
I WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO EARLIER
THIS WEEK... I'M SURE YOU FIND A
LOT OF DYNAMISM IN
SAN FRANCISCO.
THERE'S ALSO A LOT MORE HOMELESS
PEOPLE ON THE STREETS OF
SAN FRANCISCO THAN THERE ARE IN
MANY OTHER AFFLUENT COUNTRIES ON
EARTH.
SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT DYNAMISM
REALLY MEANS, AND I WOULD
SUBSCRIBE TO A DEFINITION OF
DYNAMISM THAT INCLUDED DIGNITY.

Steve says LET'S BRING BARACK
OBAMA INTO THE CONVERSATION,
SHALL WE?

Anand says WHERE IS HE? IS HE...

Steve says HE'S NOT IN THE WINGS.

Anand says YOU CAN GET ANYBODY.

Steve says IT'S A PRETTY GOOD
PROGRAM. I CAN'T GET HIM BUT I
CAN READ HIM AND HERE WE GO.
HERE'S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY ON THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S PRESIDENTIAL
NOMINATION RACE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Obama calls out the 'Activist wing.'" The quote reads "Mr. Obama cautioned that the universe of voters that could support a Democratic candidate are not driven by the same views reflected on 'certain left-leaning Twitter feeds' or 'the activist wing of our party.'
'Even as we push the envelope and we are bold in our vision we also have to be rooted in reality,' Mr. Obama said. 'The average American doesn't think we have to completely tear down the system and remake it.'
His remarks offered an implicit critique of Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who have urged voters to embrace 'political revolution' and 'big, structural change.'"
Quoted from Lisa Lerer, The New York Times. November 15, 2019.

Steve says HOW PROBLEMATIC
ARE THE FISSURES INSIDE THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY TODAY?

The caption changes to "Battle for the soul of the Democratic Party."

Anand says FIRST OF ALL, BARACK OBAMA IS
SOMEBODY WHO I RESPECT
TREMENDOUSLY.
I THINK HE'S TRYING TO DO THE
RIGHT THING HERE BUT I THINK
HE'S WRONG IN THE QUOTE THAT YOU
READ.
I DON'T SAY THAT LIGHTLY BECAUSE
I THINK HE'S ONE OF THE MOST
THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE THE UNITED
STATES HAS EVER PRODUCED.
BUT I THINK HE IS ALSO SOMEONE
WHO REVEALED HIMSELF TO BE
TEMPORARILY CONSERVATIVE ON SOME
OF THESE THINGS.
HE IS NOT A FLAME THROWER AND
HE'S NOT A REVOLUTIONARY, AND I
THINK A LOT OF THAT WAS THE
NECESSITY OF BEING A BLACK MAN
IN AMERICA TRYING TO BECOME
PRESIDENT.
THERE WAS A LOT OF THINGS HE
COULDN'T DO AND WAYS HE COULDN'T
BE.
WE'VE GOT TO BE REAL ABOUT THAT
BUT I DON'T THINK HIS OWN
TEMPERAMENT AND HIS OWN APPROACH
TO THE WORLD, WHICH WORKED FOR
HIM AND WORKED WHEN IT WORKED,
SHOULD DISTRACT US FROM THE
FACT THAT FOR MANY YEARS BEFORE
HIS PRESIDENCY AND CONTINUING
THROUGH IT, THE FUNDAMENTALS IN
AMERICA OF INEQUALITY, OF HOW
MANY PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THE
COUNTRY IS WORKING FOR THEM
OR NOT, DID NOT IMPROVE AND HE
DID NOT GO AFTER WALL STREET
THE WAY I THINK MOST PEOPLE
NOW FEEL LIKE SOMEONE SHOULD
HAVE GONE AFTER WALL STREET.

Steve says IT'S TOO MUCH MONEY
FROM THEM.

Anand says CORRECT. I THINK HE'S
ENTITLED TO HIS VIEWS. I THINK
HE'S TRYING TO PLAY A PEACEMAKER
ROLE. I THINK HE'S IN TOUCH WITH
A LOT OF THIS CANDIDATES AND IS
TRYING TO MAKE SURE THEY...
BUT TO YOUR POINT ABOUT
FISSURES, I THINK FISSURES ARE
GOOD.
I THINK FISSURES ARE GOOD.
I ACTUALLY WOULD SAY, CONTRARY
TO THIS KIND OF WORRY, I
ACTUALLY THINK THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT
NOW IS HAVING AN INCREDIBLY
IMPORTANT, FRUITFUL ARGUMENT,
RIGHT?
THIS IS A GRADUATE SEMINAR-LEVEL
ARGUMENT TAKING PLACE IN
THOUGHTFUL SOUND BITES AT THE
SCALE OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF
PEOPLE.
AND THEY ARE HAVING, IN
PARTICULAR, WHAT I WOULD
DESCRIBE AS A REFERENDUM ON
CAPITALISM IN THE UNITED STATES,
IN A WAY THAT WE HAVE NOT HAD.
AND I ACTUALLY DON'T MIND... I
THINK THEY HAVE A SLIGHTLY HIGH
NUMBER OF CANDIDATES, I THINK
ONE IN FOUR DEMOCRATS IN AMERICA
IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT RIGHT
NOW, BUT BESIDES THAT, THIS HAS
BEEN A THOUGHTFUL CONVERSATION
ABOUT WHAT DO REGULAR PEOPLE
WANT, INCREMENTALISM, BECAUSE
PEOPLE ARE CAUTIOUS, WHICH IS
TRUE, OR SWEEPING STRUCTURAL
CHANGE BECAUSE THINGS AREN'T
WORKING IN THEIR LIFE... ALSO
TRUE.
DO PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN
LIFT UP THOSE DOWN BELOW IN A
WAY THAT DOES NOT CHANGE
ANYTHING FUNDAMENTAL FOR THOSE
ON TOP?
WHICH IS WHAT JOE BIDEN PROMISED
SOME DONORS AND MANY OTHER
CENTRISTS WOULD KIND OF ARGUE OR
ARE WARREN AND SANDERS RIGHT,
THAT THE ONLY WAY TO LIFT PEOPLE
UP DOWN BELOW IS TO CRAMP THE
STYLE FOR THOSE ON TOP.
THIS IS A WORTHY DISCUSSION
WE'RE HAVING.

Steve says THE FORMER
PRESIDENT'S POSITION WOULD BE,
IF YOU TRY TO TURN THE TITANIC
AROUND AND DO IT TOO QUICKLY,
IT'S GOING TO TURN OVER.

Anand says I DON'T KNOW IF I ACCEPT THE
METAPHOR.
I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I THINK IS
GOING ON THAT MAKES ME NOT
BELIEVE THAT QUOTE.
WHEN I GO OUT THERE, I THINK
PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME WHO
ANALYZE POLITICS, OVERESTIMATE
HOW POLITICAL THE AVERAGE VOTER
IS.
HOW MUCH THE AVERAGE VOTER
THINKS IN TERMS OF LEFT,
RIGHT... MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WAKE
UP EVERY DAY THINKING OF
THEMSELVES AS LEFT OR RIGHT OR
THINGS LIKE THAT.
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE
MIDDLE WHO GO OUT... YOU KNOW,
THE FAMOUS BOOT VOTER IN THE
UNITED STATES, THAT VOTED FOR
BUSH, BUSH, OBAMA, AND TRUMP.
HOW CAN YOU LIKE... PEOPLE DO.
PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED.
PEOPLE ARE MESSY.
PEOPLE DON'T FIT IN THESE BOXES.
SO I THINK SOMETIMES... AND
DONALD TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY
INDICATES THIS... THE VODKA
VERSION OF SOMETHING IS ACTUALLY
MORE APPEALING TO PEOPLE THAN
THE BEER VERSION OF IT, RIGHT?
THE MORE PURELY DISTILLED
VERSION... IT'S STRONGER, IT'S
HARDER, IT'S MORE EXTREME... BUT
IF BARACK OBAMA'S THEORY WAS
CORRECT, JEB BUSH WOULD BE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
RIGHT NOW.
SO I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE A
UNIVERSAL TRUTH AT ALL TIMES
THAT THE MORE CAUTIOUS, MODERATE
VERSION OF A POLICY IS MORE...
GETS MORE VOTES.
AND FOR THE SIMPLE REASON, THE
MATH TO ME IS THIS: WHEN YOU GET
CLOSER TO THE CENTRE, IT IS TRUE
THAT THERE'S A BIGGER, YOU KNOW,
POOL OF PEOPLE AVAILABLE TO YOU.
HOWEVER, YOU BECOME LESS
EXCITING ALSO.
OKAY?
SO YOUR ENTHUSIASM GOES DOWN.
THAT'S WHAT THAT ANALYSIS DOES
NOT FACTOR IN.
WHEN YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE
MEDICARE FOR ALL, YOU CAN KEEP
YOUR INSURANCE, BUT... OKAY,
MAYBE YOU'RE NOT AS SCARY TO ME,
BUT I ALSO DON'T KNOW WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING.
I'M ON OBAMACARE BY THE WAY.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND OBAMACARE.
MY KIDS ARE ON OBAMACARE... I
STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT
OBAMACARE IS. IT'S CAUTIOUS,
IT'S MODERATE, IT'S ALSO
INCOMPREHENSIBLE AND NOT THAT
EXCITING.

Steve says BUT IT'S WHAT WAS
POSSIBLE AT THE TIME.

Anand says SURE. I THINK HE COULD HAVE
SOLD MORE THAN HE DID. WE CAN
HAVE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT.
IF YOU SAY: I WANT A SOCIETY,
SORT OF LIKE IN CANADA, WHERE
YOU ARE FREE FROM ILLNESS, I
WANT FREEDOM FROM ILLNESS, THE
NEW PATRIOTISM IN AMERICA IS
FREEDOM FROM ILLNESS, YOU KNOW
WHAT?
THAT IS A MORE EXTREME POLICY.
HE'S RIGHT.
I THINK THAT'S A LOT MORE
EXCITING TO PEOPLE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE
RIGHT WHO ALSO HAVE HEALTH
PROBLEMS.
I THINK WHEN YOU FRAME THINGS
LIKE THAT, EVEN THOUGH IT MAY
SOUND MORE EXTREME, BECAUSE YOU
ARE MAKING IT SIMPLE,
ACCESSIBLE, MORAL... YOU ARE
OFTEN ABLE TO HAVE WAY MORE
VOTES ON THINGS LIKE THAT THAN
THE CAUTIOUS INCREMENTAL THING
THAT SOUNDS LIKE A KPMG REPORT.

Steve says THE ELECTION IS
GOING TO COME DOWN TO A HANDFUL
OF STATES.
YOU CAN TELL ME TODAY THESE
STATES ARE GOING TO VOTE RED,
AND THESE STATES ARE GOING TO
VOTE BLUE.
YOU KNOW MASSACHUSETTS IS GOING
TO VOTE FOR WHOEVER THE
DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE IS.
YOU'RE GOING TO BE VOTING FOR
PEOPLE... APPEALING TO PEOPLE
WHO LIVE IN PENNSYLVANIA AND
INDIANA... THE PURPLE STATES,
WHAT ARE NORMALLY PURPLE STATES.
WHO IS THE MORE LIKELY CANDIDATE
THAT IS GOING TO BEAT TRUMP IN
THOSE STATES?
SOMEBODY LIKE BERNIE SANDERS OR
ELIZABETH WARREN OR SOMEBODY
LIKE JOE BIDEN, MAYOR PETE, AMY
KLOBUCHAR, SOMEBODY MORE
CENTRIST?

Anand says I THINK THERE IS TRUTH IN THE
NOTION THAT RIGHT NOW, AS THINGS
HAVE BEEN FRAMED... AND IT'S
EARLY IN THE GAME... AND
REMEMBER PEOPLE ARE PANDERING TO
THE LIBERAL BASE RIGHT NOW.

Steve says FOR SURE.

Anand says THEY'RE NOT PLAYING TO A
CENTRIST VOTER IN MICHIGAN, BUT
THEY WILL A YEAR FROM NOW.
RIGHT NOW I GET THE ARGUMENT
THAT SOMEBODY LIKE BIDEN, KIND
OF MORE MILQUETOAST MIDDLE IS
MORE APPEALING TO THOSE PLACES.
I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY TRUE.
THE MATH SHOWS THAT. I THINK
WHAT SANDERS AND-OR WARREN
NEED TO DO AND I THINK COULD DO
AND WILL DO IS VERY MUCH HAVE A
STRATEGY FOR SPEAKING TO THOSE
KINDS OF PLACES, BECAUSE YOU'RE
RIGHT, ABOUT THESE POLICIES IN A
WAY THAT FLIPS THE SCRIPT, THAT
ACTUALLY TAKES THESE THINGS THAT
WE MIGHT THINK OF AS EXTREME AND
LIBERAL AND ACTUALLY DOES TWO
THINGS.
I THINK MESSAGE NUMBER ONE IS, A
LOT OF THESE MORE STRUCTURAL OR
SWEEPING POLICIES ARE ACTUALLY
MORE PATRIOTIC THAN THE
ALTERNATIVE.
THAT'S EASY TO SAY IN MICHIGAN.
IT'S UN-AMERICAN TO LET PEOPLE
DIE JUST BECAUSE THEY FORGOT TO
REGISTER FOR HEALTH INSURANCE.
WE DON'T DO THAT IN FOREIGN
BATTLEFIELDS.
WE SHOULDN'T DO IT HERE.
TALK LIKE THAT IN MICHIGAN.

Steve says IT'S A DIFFERENT
FRAMING.

Anand says IT'S A DIFFERENT FRAMING.

Steve says YEAH.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Anand says WHEN MICHAEL BLOOMBERG SAYS,
MEDICARE FOR ALL WOULD BRING
AMERICA TO ITS KNEES.
YOU TALK BACK TO MICHAEL
BLOOMBERG AND YOU SAY, YOU KNOW
WHAT?
THE COUNTRY THAT BEAT THE NAZIS
CAN PROBABLY SURVIVE THE
IMPLEMENTATION OF MEDICARE FOR
ALL.
SO IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE AMERICA
CAN HANDLE THAT, YOU'RE NOT A
BELIEVER, BUT I'M A PATRIOT...
THIS IS THE KIND OF LANGUAGE.
THAT'S THE FIRST THING.
I THINK THESE POLICIES NEED TO
BE MADE PATRIOTIC.
AND THEY ARE PATRIOTIC,
ACTUALLY.
TO CARE FOR PEOPLE IN YOUR
COUNTRY IS PATRIOTIC.
SECOND, THE SORT OF OPPOSITE.
I THINK SANDERS AND WARREN AND
OTHERS AT LOWER LEVELS IN THE...
OF ELECTORAL POLITICS WHO ARE
RUNNING ON THESE IDEAS I THINK
NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF
TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEIR LIVES
WILL BE LIKE IF THESE THINGS
SUCCEED.
YOU JUST TOLD ME SOMETHING THAT
I WON'T FORGET, THAT PRESUMABLY
NO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY DIDN'T
START A BUSINESS LAST YEAR
BECAUSE OF HEALTH CARE WORRY.
WELL, FOR AN AMERICAN, THAT'S A
REALLY SHOCKING FACT.

Steve says WE HAVE MEDICARE FOR
ALL.

Anand says AND SO INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING
MEDICARE FOR ALL, WHAT YOU JUST
TOLD ME IS, THERE'S A WHOLE
CATEGORY OF HUMAN ANXIETY THAT
PEOPLE HAVE BELOW THE BORDER
HERE THAT YOU HAVE ELIMINATED AS
A MATTER OF COURSE.

Steve says WE HAVE OTHER
ANXIETIES.

Anand says CORRECT.
AND I THINK WHAT... SO IN
ADDITION TO KIND OF FRAMING SOME
OF THIS STUFF AS PATRIOTIC FOR
THOSE PLACES, I THINK YOU WANT
TO GO TO MICHIGAN AND OHIO AND
PENNSYLVANIA AND SAY, WHO WILL
YOU BE IN A WORLD OF MEDICARE
FOR ALL?
WHO WILL YOU BE WHEN YOU DON'T
HAVE STUDENT DEBT?
WHO WILL YOU BE WHEN YOU'RE NOT
SITTING AROUND WORRYING ABOUT
THESE THINGS?
WHAT BUSINESSES WILL YOU START?
WHAT BOOKS WILL YOU READ TO YOUR
CHILD WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO
READ MEDICAL BILLS AROUND THE
TABLE?
I DON'T SEE THEM TALKING LIKE
THIS IN A WAY THAT I THINK THEY
COULD. SO THERE YOU GO.
FREE CONSULTING.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says THAT'S A GOOD VISION
FOR A CANDIDATE. FREE OF CHARGE.
YOU JUST GAVE IT TO THEM.
LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
THERE'S LOTS OF TIME LEFT FOR
SOMEBODY TO JUMP ON THAT.
ANAND GIRIDHARADAS HAS BEEN OUR
GUEST, HIS BOOK, "WINNERS TAKE
ALL: THE ELITE CHARADE OF
CHANGING THE WORLD."
WE'RE GLAD IT'S BROUGHT YOU BACK
TO OUR STUDIO FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN 10 YEARS. GOOD TO SEE YOU.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Anand says SO HAPPY TO BE BACK.

Watch: Should Billionaires Exist?