Transcript: Education Turbulence in Ontario | Nov 07, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, spotted blue tie, and a red poppy pin.

A caption on screen reads "Education turbulence in Ontario. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says SALARIES ACCOUNT FOR A
VERY LARGE PART OF THE ONTARIO
BUDGET EVERY YEAR, AND ONE OF
THE BIGGEST SECTORS IN THAT
REGARD IS EDUCATION.
THE FACT THAT THE CONTRACTS FOR
TEACHERS FROM K TO 12 ARE UP FOR
NEGOTIATION RIGHT NOW COULD HAVE
A DIRECT BEARING ON HOW THE
GOVERNMENT'S FINAL NUMBERS ADD
UP IN NEXT SPRING'S BUDGET.
HERE TO GET US UP TO SPEED ON
THOSE TEACHER NEGOTIATIONS:
CAROLINE ALPHONSO, EDUCATION
REPORTER FOR THE GLOBE AND MAIL.

Caroline is in her forties, with chin-length curly brown hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a green blouse, and a red poppy pin.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU BACK TO TVO.

Caroline says THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, STEVE.

Steve says WHAT IS THE BIGGEST,
IN YOUR VIEW, STUMBLING BLOCK
BETWEEN NO AGREEMENT AND
AGREEMENT SO FAR?

The caption changes to "Caroline Alphonso. The Globe and Mail."
Then, it changes again to "Not budging."

Caroline says WELL, THE SHORT ANSWER: BOTH
SIDES ARE REALLY FAR APART.
THE LONG ANSWER: THERE'S A LOT
OF LITTLE THINGS THAT ARE
HAPPENING, A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS
AROUND SICK LEAVE, PAY, FULL-DAY
KINDERGARTEN, CLASS SIZE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF LITTLE THINGS
THAT ARE HAPPENING THAT ARE
KEEPING THE SIDES, BOTH SIDES,
VERY FAR APART.

Steve says THOSE SOUND LIKE A
LOT OF BIG THINGS, NOT A LOT OF
LITTLE THINGS.

Caroline says YES, THEY ARE BIG THINGS, BUT THERE'S NOT ONE OVERARCHING
ELEMENT HERE.
YOU HAVE A LOT OF DIFFERENT
THINGS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE.

Steve says GOT IT.
SO WHEN PEOPLE SAY THIS IS ALL
ABOUT TEACHERS WANTING TO BE
PAID MORE, IT'S ALL ABOUT WAGES,
NOT REALLY.

Caroline says NOT REALLY, NO.

Steve says YOU DID MENTION
FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN IN THAT
ANSWER.
HOW IS THAT PART OF THESE
NEGOTIATIONS?

The caption changes to "Caroline Alphonso, @calphonso.""

Caroline says SAM HAMMOND, PRESIDENT OF THE
ONTARIO TEACHERS FEDERATION OF
ONTARIO, MENTIONED IN A PRESS
CONFERENCE RECENTLY, OR WAS IT A
SCRUM PERHAPS, THAT THE
GOVERNMENT IS NOT COMMITTING TO
THE STAFF RATIO RIGHT NOW IN
FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN.
THERE'S BEEN NO COMMITMENT.
THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T SAID
ANYTHING.
THEY SAID THEY'RE COMMITTED TO
THE FRAMEWORK OF FULL-DAY
KINDERGARTEN BUT NOT THE STAFF
RATIO.
AS YOU KNOW, THERE'S AN EC AND
THERE'S A TEACHER IN MOST
CLASSROOMS.

Steve says EARLY CHILD EDUCATOR
AND A TEACHER.

Caroline says IN MOST CLASSROOMS.
THERE'S BEEN NO COMMITMENT THAT
THAT WOULD REMAIN STATUS QUO.

Steve says SO THE UNION IS
INFERRING THAT THE GOVERNMENT
MAY WANT TO INCREASE THE
PUPIL-TEACHER RATIO OR MAYBE GET
THE EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANTS OUT
OF THE CLASS...

Caroline says THERE WAS A LOT OF
SPECULATION AROUND THAT.
FOR MONTHS NOW.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTED TO
CHANGE THE MODEL OF FULL-DAY
KINDERGARTEN, MAYBE PUT TWO
ECs IN THERE.
MAYBE JUST HAVE A TEACHER IN
THERE.

Steve says BECAUSE THAT'S CHEAPER.

Caroline says BECAUSE IT'S CHEAPER.
EXACTLY.
SO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVEN'T
COMMITTED TO THE MODEL AS IT
STANDS NOW, WHICH IS THE TEACHER
AND THE EC, THEY HAVE SAID
THAT'S A STUMBLING BLOCK AS
WELL.

Steve says THAT'S A MILLION
MILES AWAY FROM SOME OF THE
RUMOURS WE'VE HEARD, THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT WANTS TO CANCEL
FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN.

Caroline says THEY'VE NEVER SAID THAT.
BUT WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS A
MODEL IN FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW.

Steve says LET US ACKNOWLEDGE
THE FACT THAT ONE UNION IN THE
EDUCATION SECTOR CAME TO AN
AGREEMENT A WHILE AGO, CUPE I'M
TALKING ABOUT, THE UNION OF
PUBLIC EMPLOYEES, BECAUSE THEY
HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE OF HAVING
THEIR AGREEMENT NEGOTIATED IN
THE MIDDLE OF A FEDERAL ELECTION
CAMPAIGN, AND EVERYBODY WANTED
TO KEEP THE HEAT DOWN.
THERE'S NO FEDERAL ELECTION
CAMPAIGN ANYMORE.
HOW IS THAT IMPACTING THIS?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Caroline says THIS IS TAKING A LOT LONGER.
IT WAS A WEEK BEFORE?
I CAN'T REMEMBER.
IT WAS LAST MONTH SOMETIME.
AND IT WAS DOWN TO THE WIRE
THERE.
AND THEY REACHED AN AGREEMENT
LATE IN THE EVENING, ON THE
SUNDAY NIGHT.
THE SCHOOLS, MANY SCHOOLS ACROSS
THE PROVINCE, MANY SCHOOL BOARDS
ACROSS THE PROVINCE PLAN TO
CLOSE THEIR SCHOOLS AS A RESULT
OF IT.
EVERYBODY WAS WAITING.
PARENTS WERE WAITING TO SEE WHAT
THEIR CHILD CARE ARRANGEMENTS
WOULD BE FOR MONDAY.
CUPE ENDED UP GETTING MORE THAN
I THOUGHT THEY WOULD.
THEY GOT...

Steve says BECAUSE OF THE TIMING.

Caroline says BECAUSE OF THE TIMING.
SO THEY GOT SORT OF THIS LOCAL
PRIORITIES FUND THAT WAS
NEGOTIATED IN A PREVIOUS
CONTRACT THAT GIVES THEM EXTRA
STAFF IN SCHOOLS.
SICK LEAVE STAYED THE SAME.
THE BENEFITS STAYED THE SAME
THERE.
THEY GOT THE... THEY AGREED TO
THE 1 percent A YEAR...

Steve says SALARY POP.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Caroline says SALARY WAGE INCREASE.
SO HOW THAT WILL PLAY OUT IN
NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE OTHER
UNION IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING
TO WATCH GOING FORWARD BECAUSE
THERE IS NO FEDERAL ELECTION.
THERE IS MORE TIME.

Steve says AND LET'S JUST SPELL
THIS OUT.
THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO, A
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT, WANTED
NO STRIKE AND DISRUPTION IN THE
SCHOOLS...

Caroline says EXACTLY.

Steve says BECAUSE THEY WERE
TRYING TO HELP THEIR PAL, ANDREW
SCHEER, THE FEDERAL CONSERVATIVE
PARTY.
BUT SINCE THAT'S NOT A FACTOR
HERE, DO WE INFER FROM THAT THAT
THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT
NEGOTIATORS INTEND TO BE MUCH
TOUGHER IN THEIR BARGAINING
POSITIONS WITH THE CURRENT
TEACHER UNIONS?

Caroline says FROM WHAT I'M HEARING, FROM
WHAT I'M HEARING OF WHAT'S BEING
DISCUSSED AT THE TABLE, YES,
THEY ARE TOUGHER WITH THE
UNIONS.
THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE LOOKING
TO CHANGE, TO TAKE AWAY, THEY
WOULDN'T HAVE PROPOSED THAT,
PERHAPS, SOME WOULD SUGGEST, IF
IT WAS DURING A FEDERAL
ELECTION.
SO THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE IN
THE... WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE
TABLE.
THERE'S BEEN A CHANGE IN HOW THE
MINISTER AND OTHERS ARE
PRESENTING THEIR CASES, THE TONE
HAS CHANGED SLIGHTLY AS WELL...

Steve says FROM WHAT TO WHAT?

Caroline says WELL, IT WAS MORE, YOU KNOW,
WE NEED TO REACH A DEAL.
WE NEED TO REACH A DEAL.
THEY STILL WANT TO REACH A DEAL.
THEY STILL SAY THAT.
BUT NOW THEY'RE TALKING...
THERE'S MORE OF WHAT THE UNIONS
ARE ASKING FOR AND WHAT THE
GOVERNMENT IS ASKING FOR OUT IN
THE PUBLIC.
THAT WAS NOT THE CASE AS MUCH
WHEN IT CAME TO CUPE.

Steve says LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN
HELP US UNDERSTAND SORT OF WHERE
WE ARE IN THE CHRONOLOGY OF THIS
THING BECAUSE THE TEACHERS, I
GATHER, ARE WORKING WITHOUT A
CONTRACT RIGHT NOW.

Caroline says THEY ARE.

Steve says THE CONTRACTS ALL
EXPIRED BEFORE THE SCHOOL YEAR
BEGAN.

Caroline says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says BUT THAT DOESN'T
MEAN YOU GO ON STRIKE RIGHT
AWAY, RIGHT?
YOU TAKE A STRIKE VOTE.
THERE ARE A BUNCH...

Caroline says IT'S A WHOLE PROCESS, YES.

Steve says STEPS IN A PROCESS.
THE LATEST STEP I GATHER THAT
THE SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS
HAVE GOT AND THAT THE ELEMENTARY
TEACHERS ARE SEEKING IS THIS
THING CALLED NO BOARD STATUS.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

The caption changes to "To the picket lines?"

Caroline says YOU KNOW, ONE OF MY
COLLEAGUES AT A DIFFERENT MEDIA
OUTLET HAS A SPREADSHEET GOING
OF WHAT EACH UNION IS UP TO.
SO WE CAN GO... LET'S START WITH
THE SECONDARY TEACHERS, THE
ONTARIO SECONDARY SCHOOL
TEACHERS' FEDERATION.
THEY HAVE... THEY WEREN'T
REACHING AN AGREEMENT OR THEY
WERE SO FAR APART THAT THEY
ASKED THE CONCILIATOR FOR A NO
BOARD REPORT, AND THEY GOT ONE.
A NO BOARD REPORT MEANS THAT
THEY HAVE 17 DAYS TO BE IN A
LEGAL STRIKE POSITION.
THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS.

Steve says IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY
DEFINITELY GO ON STRIKE IN 17 DAYS.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Caroline says THIS IS ALL PART OF THE
NEGOTIATING-BARGAINING PROCESS.
WHAT IT MEANS IS, THEY COULD
POSSIBLY GO ON WORK-TO-RULE.
THAT'S HOW IT STARTS.
THEY START WITH WORK-TO-RULE.
THEY START WITH SORT OF... THEY
DON'T PARTICIPATE IN
EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES, FOR
EXAMPLE.
THEY DON'T STAY AFTER SCHOOL.
THEY DON'T DO HALLWAY DUTY.
THAT SORT OF THING.

Steve says COACH SPORTS TEAMS.

Caroline says EXACTLY.
THEN IT ESCALATES, THE STRIKE
ACTION.
OR, THIS ALLOWS THEM TO GO ON
STRIKE IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.
THE ELEMENTARY TEACHERS
FEDERATION OF ONTARIO, WHICH IS
THE LARGEST EDUCATION UNION IN
THE PROVINCE, THEY APPLIED FOR A
NO BOARD REPORT THIS WEEK.
SO THEY COULD BE APPROVED TODAY,
TOMORROW, NEXT WEEK.
THAT SETS THE CLOCK FOR THEM AS
WELL.
17-DAY COUNTDOWN UNTIL THEY
COULD BE IN A LEGAL STRIKE
POSITION.
THE CATHOLIC TEACHERS IS THE
OTHER GROUP NEGOTIATING WITH
GOVERNMENT.
THEY ARE ALSO CONDUCTING STRIKE
VOTES AT THE MOMENT.
THEY HAVE NOT APPLIED FOR A NO
BOARD REPORT, AS YET.
SO THEY COULD POSSIBLY DO THAT.
SO WITH THE ELEMENTARY TEACHERS
FEDERATION AND THE ONTARIO
SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS'
FEDERATION POSSIBLY GETTING
THEIR NO BOARD REPORTS, THEY
COULD BOTH BE IN A LEGAL STRIKE
POSITION BY THE END OF THIS
MONTH, IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

Steve says THAT'S A LOT TO KEEP
ON TOP OF.
WELL DONE.

Caroline says SPREADSHEET.

Steve says SPREADSHEET.
OKAY.
SO 17 DAYS AWAY THEN.
IF I RECALL, 20, 22 YEARS AGO,
THERE WAS A TEACHER STRIKE WHEN
MIKE HARRIS WAS IN POWER, LASTED
A COUPLE OF WEEKS.
AS LONG AS YOU GUYS ARE TAKING
BETS AND MAKING SPREADSHEETS,
WHAT ARE YOU PUTTING THE ODDS ON
A STRIKE HAPPENING THIS TIME.

Caroline says LISTEN, I'VE DECIDED MY
CRYSTAL BALL IS PROBABLY NOT
WORTH IT ANYMORE.
I'M JUST SORT OF WATCHING THIS
UNFOLD.
I UNDERSTAND FROM DOING THIS FOR
AS LONG AS I HAVE, IS THAT THIS
IS PART OF THE NEGOTIATION
PROCESS.
YOU'RE RIGHT, STEVE, IN THE
SENSE THAT 20 YEARS AGO, WE SAW
THIS HAPPEN.
IS IT GOING TO PLAY OUT IN THE
SAME WAY THIS TIME AROUND?
TIME WILL TELL.
WE HAVE SEEN DURING THE
LIBERALS' TIME IN GOVERNMENT, WE
DID SEE ONE-DAY STRIKES.
WE DID SEE WORK-TO-RULE.
WE SAW ROTATING STRIKES.
WE NEVER SAW THE MAGNITUDE WE
SAW DURING THE MIKE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT.
THE UNIONS AND THE GOVERNMENT
SEEM SO FAR APART, FROM WHAT I'M
HEARING, THAT IT DEPENDS WHAT
DOUG FORD AND HIS GOVERNMENT
DECIDE TO DO GOING FORWARD,
WHETHER THEY DECIDE TO STICK TO
THEIR GUNS AND KEEP THIS SORT
OF... THIS IS MY PROPOSAL.
THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DO.
OR WHETHER THEY SORT OF, LIKE,
CAVE IN A LITTLE BIT HERE AND
THERE.
THEY STARTED TO DO SO IN SOME
RESPECTS.
IF YOU REMEMBER, THE HIGH SCHOOL
TEACHERS UNION, ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT THE GOVERNMENT
WANTED TO DO IN HIGH SCHOOL IS
INCREASE THE CLASS SIZES.

Steve says RIGHT.

Caroline says SO THE AVERAGE CLASS SIZE FOR BOARDS WOULD BE 28 STUDENTS.
STEPHEN LECCE...

Steve says EDUCATION MINISTER.

Caroline says THE EDUCATION MINISTER CAME
OUT LAST WEEK AND SAID, WELL, WE
TOOK THIS OFFER TO THE SECONDARY
SCHOOLS TEACHERS UNION THAT WE
WOULD ONLY INCREASE TO 25, THE
AVERAGE WOULD GO DOWN FROM 28 TO 25.
IT'S STILL GONE UP.

Steve says UP FROM 22.
IT'S A COMPROMISE.

Caroline says IT'S A COMPROMISE.
BUT THE FLIP SIDE OF IT IS WHAT
THE GOVERNMENT WAS ASKING THE
UNION FOR IS THAT EVERY SCHOOL
BOARD HAS IN THEIR LOCAL
AGREEMENTS CAPS ON CLASS SIZES.
SO, YOU KNOW, THEY KEEP CLASS
SIZES SMALL FOR WORKPLACE
COURSES OR FOR SPECIAL NEEDS
COURSES FOR STUDENTS, THE
UNIVERSITY CLASS SIZES, YOU
KNOW, THE UNIVERSITY COURSES,
THE ACADEMIC COURSES WOULD HAVE
SMALLER CLASS SIZES.
THEY'LL REMOVE THOSE CAPS FROM
COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS FOR THE 25
AVERAGE.

Steve says WE SHOULD REMIND
EVERYBODY, THAT'S AN
ACROSS-BOARD AVERAGE.
IT'S NOT A MAXIMUM PER CLASS.

Caroline says THAT'S RIGHT.
IT'S AN AVERAGE.

Steve says BIG DIFFERENCE.

Caroline says ACROSS THE BOARD.
YOU COULD HAVE CLASSES OF 40
KIDS.
YOU COULD HAVE CLASSES OF 20
KIDS.
YES.

Steve says LET ME PUT THIS
FORWARD AND YOU TELL ME IF THIS
MEANS ANYTHING.
YOU AND I HAVE BOTH SEEN LOTS OF
TEACHER NEGOTIATIONS IN THE PAST
AND I HAVE SEEN THE RHETORIC
FLAMING, AND IT'S NOT YET.
I SEE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION
SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT?
I'M PREPARED... MY DOOR IS OPEN
24-7 TO CONTINUE NEGOTIATING.
I'M DISAPPOINTED WITH WHAT I'M
HEARING FROM THE UNIONS BUT HE
HASN'T BEEN USING INFLAMMATORY
LANGUAGE LIKE UNION BOSSES AND
ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF.
AND THE UNIONS HAVE BEEN PRETTY
RESPONSIBLE IN THEIR LANGUAGE AS
WELL.
WHAT DO WE INFER FROM THIS?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Caroline says I FEEL WE ARE AT THIS
JUNCTURE WHERE I THINK BOTH
SIDES WANT A DEAL.
THEY WANT TO WORK ON A DEAL.
NOBODY WANTS TO SEE KIDS OUT OF
THE CLASSROOM.
NOBODY WANTS TO SEE KIDS AT HOME
FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.
SO IT HASN'T ESCALATED TO THAT
POINT.
AND PERHAPS IT WON'T.
PERHAPS, YOU KNOW, BOTH SIDES,
DESPITE THE NO BOARD REPORTS,
PERHAPS BOTH SIDES COULD REACH
AGREEMENTS, COULD REACH
COMPROMISES.
I THINK THAT THEY'RE STILL
HOPEFUL THAT THAT WILL HAPPEN.
I DON'T THINK IT'S ESCALATED TO
THAT POINT AS YET.
IT'S STILL EARLY DAYS, THOUGH.
EVEN THOUGH THE CONTRACTS
EXPIRED AT THE END OF AUGUST, I
FEEL LIKE IT'S STILL... WE'RE
STILL GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS
AND PERHAPS, YOU KNOW, IT WILL
GO ON INTO DECEMBER, INTO
JANUARY.
I COULD BE WRONG.
I MEAN, UNTIL THE END OF THIS
MONTH, WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO
HAPPEN.

Steve says THE FACT THEY ARE
STILL TALKING IS ENCOURAGING.

Caroline says IT IS ENCOURAGING, YES.

Steve says HELP ME FIGURE OUT.
THEY HAVE SAID THIS GOVERNMENT
IS CUTTING, CUTTING EDUCATION,
AND YET, I WAS DOWN AT QUEEN'S
PARK YESTERDAY FOR THE ECONOMIC
STATEMENT, AND THE GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO IS GOING TO SPEND
30 BILLION dollars NEXT FISCAL YEAR ON
EDUCATION.
THAT'S THE MOST EVER.
EDUCATION SPENDING WILL GO UP
4 percent.
THAT'S TWICE THE RATE OF
INFLATION.
HOW EXACTLY DO YOU MAKE THE
ARGUMENT THAT THERE ARE CUTS,
CUTS, CUTS WHEN I SEE THOSE
NUMBERS AS WELL?

The caption changes to "A rocky relationship."

Caroline says THE EDUCATION BUDGET NOW
INCLUDES THE CHILD CARE MONEY.
SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING THE
INCREASE.

Steve says I SEE.

Caroline says IT'S NOT SOLELY THE EDUCATION
BUDGET ANYMORE.
IT'S CHANGED TO INCLUDE CHILD
CARE.

Steve says SO IT LOOKS A LOT
BIGGER THAN IT USED TO FOR THAT
REASON.

Caroline says THAT'S TRUE.
AND THERE'S ALSO... THERE'S ALSO
A POT OF MONEY IN THE BUDGET FOR
ATTRITION OF TEACHERS.
SO WE SEE THAT MONEY FLOWING
INTO THE EDUCATION...

Steve says WHICH IS A ONE-TIME
THING.

Caroline says WHICH IS A ONE-TIME THING.
SO WE'RE SEEING THE INCREASE AS
A RESULT OF THAT.

Steve says SO BOTH SIDES ARE A
LITTLE RIGHT ON THIS.
YES, EDUCATION SPENDING IS WAY
UP...

Caroline says WITH CAVEATS.

Steve says WITH CAVEATS.
BECAUSE OF THESE ONE-TIME
EXPENDITURES.
OKAY.
I'VE GOT THAT NOW.
LET ME TRY THIS: I SPOKE TO AN
ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER OVER
THE WEEKEND WHO SAID, WE ARE NOT
TOO WORRIED IF WE END UP HAVING
TO GO ON STRIKE BECAUSE WE KNOW
THE GOVERNMENT IS JUST GOING TO
LEGISLATE US BACK ANYWAY.
HOW WIDESPREAD DO YOU THINK THAT
ATTITUDE IS?

Caroline says I WOULD SAY THAT THAT
SENTIMENT IS SHARED BY A LOT OF
PEOPLE.
WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO SEE A
REPEAT OF WHAT HAPPENED UNDER
THE LIBERALS WITH BILL 115,
WHICH IS THE LEGISLATION THAT,
YOU KNOW, TOOK AWAY TEACHERS'
RIGHT TO STRIKE, YOU KNOW,
CAUSED A LOT OF CHAOS ACROSS THE
PROVINCE...

Steve says TRIED TO CLAW BACK
SICK DAYS.

Caroline says TRIED TO CLAW BACK SICK DAYS.

Steve says ULTIMATELY RULED
UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Caroline says AND I THINK THE PAYMENTS TO
TEACHER UNIONS ARE STILL COMING
IN NOW.
DO WE WANT TO GET TO THAT POINT
AGAIN?
WE'LL SEE.
BUT RIGHT NOW, I MEAN, THE
SENTIMENT THAT THE GOVERNMENT
WILL LEGISLATE TEACHERS BACK TO
WORK SHOULD THEY STRIKE IS
SHARED BY A LOT OF PEOPLE.

Steve says IT'S NOT GREAT,
THOUGH, IF IT GETS TO THAT
STAGE, IS IT?

Caroline says IT'S NOT GOOD FOR PUBLIC
EDUCATION.
IT'S NOT GOOD FOR THE TEACHERS
STANDING IN FRONT OF THE
CLASSROOM, THEIR MOTIVATION, YOU
KNOW, THEIR ESTEEM.
YOU KNOW, THEY ARE... IT'S
NOT... IT DOESN'T... IT DOESN'T
HELP IN THE CLASSROOM AT THE END
OF THE DAY.

Steve says YEAH.

Caroline says IT DOESN'T.
IT REALLY DOESN'T.

Steve says STUDENTS DON'T WANT
TO BE SEEING THEIR TEACHERS ON
PICKET LINES AND TEACHERS MAY
LOSE SOME OF THE ESTEEM IN WHICH
THEY'RE HELD BY THEIR STUDENTS
IF THEY'RE OUT THERE CARRYING
PICKET LINES.

Caroline says EXACTLY.
IT'S NOT THE BEST THING TO DO
BUT GOVERNMENTS HAVE DONE IT IN
THE PAST AND WHO KNOWS IF
THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT AGAIN.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says WE WILL KEEP READING
YOUR DISPATCHES IN THE GLOBE AND
MAIL ABOUT THIS.
SO YOU KEEP COVERING IT AND WE
THANK YOU FOR COMING IN TO TVO
AND HELPING US BETTER UNDERSTAND
IT BETTER TONIGHT.

Caroline says THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

Watch: Education Turbulence in Ontario