Transcript: Northern Ontario's WWII Sacrifices | Nov 08, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, checkered blue tie, and red poppy pin.

A caption on screen reads "Northern Ontario's World War 2 Sacrifices. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says CANADA'S ARMED FORCES
EARNED A REPUTATION AS FIERCE
AND FEARLESS, IN BOTH WORLD
WARS.
THAT WAS IN NO SMALL PART THANKS
TO SOLDIERS WHO HAILED FROM THE
VAST AND OFTEN RUGGED PARTS OF
THIS PROVINCE NORTH OF THE
FRENCH RIVER.
DIETER BUSE IS PROFESSOR
EMERITUS OF HISTORY AT
LAURENTIAN UNIVERSITY IN
SUDBURY, A FORMER DRILL
INSTRUCTOR WITH THE ROYAL
CANADIAN AIR FORCE, AND
CO-AUTHOR OF THE TWO VOLUME
SERIES, "UNTOLD: NORTHEASTERN
ONTARIO'S MILITARY PAST."
AND HE JOINS US NOW ON THE
CONTRIBUTION OF NORTHERN ONTARIO
SOLDIERS TO THE SECOND WORLD WAR
EFFORT AND BEYOND.

Dieter is in his seventies, with short white hair and a goatee. He's wearing glasses, a brown sweater and a white shirt, as well as a red poppy pin.
A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of a Canadian World War 2 helmet.

Steve continues DIETER, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU
BACK IN THAT CHAIR.
HOW IS IT GOING?

Dieter says VERY GOOD, THANK YOU.

Steve says WHEN THE WAR BROKE
OUT, BROADLY SPEAKING, WHAT
PRE-EXISTING STILLS DID NORTHERN
ONTARIANS HAVE THAT YOU SUGGEST
PUT THEM AHEAD OF OTHER
SOLDIERS, PERHAPS.

The caption changes to "Dieter Buse. Co-Author, 'Untold.'"
Then, it changes again to "Answering the call."

Dieter says I WOULDN'T PUT ANYONE AHEAD
OF OTHER SOLDIERS, BUT I WOULD
SAY THAT THE STEREOTYPE OF
NORTHEASTERN ONTARIO HAVING A
LOT OF BUSHMEN AND PEOPLE...
LUMBERJACKS, THIS KIND OF
OCCUPATION, WE SOMETIMES FORGET
THE IMPORTANCE AND THE ACTUAL
SKILL LEVELS OF PEOPLE WHO
WERE... MINERS, FOR EXAMPLE,
THEY WERE ARTISAN, AND MANY OF
THE MINES WERE DEVELOPED BY
MINING ENGINEERS.
PROSPECTORS WERE USUALLY
GEOLOGISTS WHO HAD AN
UNDERSTANDING OF GEOLOGY.
AND WE HAD PEOPLE WHO WERE BUSH
PILOTS AND HAD SOME TRAINING IN
HOW TO FLY.

Steve says ALL THAT ASIDE,
THOUGH, IS IT NOT FAIR TO SAY
THAT PEOPLE WHO GROW UP IN
NORTHERN ONTARIO ARE A LITTLE
TOUGHER THAN THOSE OF US WHO
GROW UP IN THE SOUTH AND THAT
DOESN'T HURT WHEN IT'S WARTIME?

The caption changes to "Burrowing underground."

Dieter says NO.
WHICH MEANS YOU DON'T NEED
ENOUGH TIME TO GET PEOPLE INTO
PHYSICAL SHAPE.
YES, THEY WERE IMPORTANT.
LET ME GO BACK TO THE MINERS, IF
I MAY, TO TELL ONE STORY RIGHT
AWAY.

Steve says SURE.

A map of Spain appears briefly, showing the location of Gibraltar.

Dieter says THE ROCK OF GIBRALTAR WAS AN
IMPORTANT POINT IN WARS THAT
RELATE TO THE MEDITERRANEAN.
AFTER THE GERMANS OCCUPIED NORTH
AFRICA, ONE OF THE WAYS BY WHICH
THE ALLIES THOUGHT THAT THEY
COULD GET BACK AT THE GERMANS,
BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T ATTACK ON
THE FRENCH FRONT, IS THEY
DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD MAKE THE
STRATEGIC POINT, GIBRALTAR, A
PLACE THEY COULD HAVE HOSPITALS,
STORAGE PLACES, AND WHAT DID
THEY DO?
COLIN CAMPBELL FROM SAULT STE.
MARIE, THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC
WORKS OF ONTARIO, HE GOT
TOGETHER 297 MINERS FROM ALMOST
EVERY COMMUNITY IN NORTHEASTERN
ONTARIO, AND WITH THEM HE FORMED
A UNIT.
THEY WENT TO GIBRALTAR.
THEY EXCAVATED A HUGE
UNDERGROUND HOSPITAL.
THEY EXCAVATED STORAGE AREAS FOR
ARMAMENTS AND MUNITION, AND THEY
USED THE RUBBLE TO EXTEND THE
RUNWAY, SO HUGE PLANES COULD
LAND.
THE POINT HERE IS 297, ALL OF
THEM WITH ONE EXCEPTION CAME
FROM NORTHEASTERN ONTARIO.
IN ADDITION TO THAT, THEY WERE
SPREAD FROM ALMOST EVERY
COMMUNITY, FROM NORTH BAY, SAULT
STE. MARIE, UP TO TIMMINS AND
FURTHER NORTH.
ONE WAS ACTUALLY FROM MOOSONEE.
WHY IS THAT SO IMPORTANT?
LET'S TAKE IT IN THE WORDS OF
DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER, THE
GENERAL WHO USED THAT AS A BASE,
AND HE SAID: WITHOUT GIBRALTAR,
WE WOULD HAVE HAD TROUBLE TAKING
AFRICA.
SO THERE'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF
THE SKILLS THAT WERE IMPORTANT
IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

Steve says GOOD ONE.

Dieter says I COULD GIVE YOU ANOTHER.

Steve says FIRE AWAY.

Dieter says IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR, THERE
WERE MANY NEEDS... OR PEOPLE
NEEDED TO HAVE WOOD.
IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, IT WAS
LESS SO BECAUSE A

Steve says NOT A COINCIDENCE,
I'M SURE.

Dieter says NO.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says THE AIR FORCE
ATTRACTED I GUESS A SURPRISING
NUMBER OF NORTHEASTERN ONTARIANS
BECAUSE YOU SAID FLYING WAS A
NORTHERN SPECIALTY.
WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

The caption changes to "High flyers."

Dieter says WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS PEOPLE
LIKE BAUDET, PATTERSON, IF YOU
LOOK IN THEIR FILES WHICH ARE
AVAILABLE THROUGH LIBRARIES AND
ARCHIVES CANADA, THE FILES OF
THE PEOPLE RECRUITING THEM OR
REVIEWING THEM SAID KEEN TO FLY.
DESPERATELY WANTS TO FLY.
THESE PEOPLE, SOME OF THEM HAD
EXPERIENCE... SOME OF THEM WERE
JUST CAUGHT BY THE EXCITEMENT OF
FLYING.
FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS A
BROTHERHOOD OF 13 FORMED IN
SUDBURY AND COPPER CLIFF.
THEY ALL WANTED TO BE IN THE AIR
FORCE.
THEY ALL WANTED TO FLY
SPITFIRES, BUT NINE OF THEM
DIDN'T SURVIVE.
WHY?
BECAUSE MANY OF THEM ENDED UP AS
BOMBER CREW.
AND BOMBER CREW HAD A SURVIVAL
RATE OF ABOUT 50 percent.
BUT THIS SHOWS THE DESIRE AND OF
COURSE SOME OF THEM HAD BUSH
PILOT TRAINING BEFORE THEY
ACTUALLY WEPT INTO THE AIR FORCE.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says ANOTHER GROUP THAT
ATTRACTED A LOT OF NORTHEASTERN
ONTARIANS WAS A GROUP CALLED THE
SO-CALLED DEVIL'S BRIGADE.
WHO WERE THEY?

The caption changes to "Behind enemy lines."

Dieter says THE FIRST SPECIAL FORCES UNIT
WAS FORMED IN 1942 AND LASTED
UNTIL DECEMBER 1944.
THEY WERE 500 CANADIANS AND 500
AMERICANS.
THEY TRAINED UNDER HOT AND UNDER
COLD CONDITIONS, AND THEY WERE
THE MAIN GROUP THAT WAS DROPPED
BEHIND THE LINES.
IT WAS CALLED LINE CROSSING.
AND MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE HAD TO
BE ABLE TO SURVIVE ON THEIR OWN.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY HAD TO HAVE
THE SKILLS OF A HUNTER, A
HUNTING GUIDE, A LUMBERJACK, AND
WE HAVE AT LEAST 11 OF THOSE 500
CANADIANS CAME FROM OUR AREA.
ANOTHER ONE OF THE SKILLS THAT
WERE SOMETIMES IMPORTANT, IF YOU
COULD LAND BEHIND THE LINES AND
SURVIVE, YOU HAD TO HAVE THE
LANGUAGE OF WITH ARE YOU WERE
DROPPED.
SO BEING BILINGUAL IN FRENCH AND
ENGLISH.
IF YOU READ THE NAMES OF THOSE
11 INDIVIDUALS FROM NORTHEASTERN
ONTARIO, ALMOST EVERYONE IS A
POIRIER, AT LEAST THE NAMES
INDICATE THAT THEY WERE PROBABLY
BILINGUAL.

Steve says NOT TOO MANY BUSES
UP THERE, I GUESS.

Dieter says NO.

Steve says GOTCHA.
LET'S PUT ANOTHER COUPLE OF
NUMBERS ON THE RECORD, AND THIS
IS FROM YOUR BOOK.
During World War 2 the Northern Ontario Mining Company produced 1.5 billion pounds of nickel and 1.7 billion pounds of copper; more than all previous years combined.
WHERE WAS ALL THAT METAL GOING?

Dieter says ALL THAT METAL WAS GOING INTO ARMAMENTS.
IF YOU WANTED TO HAVE GOOD
COMMUNICATIONS YOU NEED COPPER
TO RUN LINES.
IF YOU WANTED TO HAVE SHIPS,
THEN OF COURSE A LOT OF IT WENT
TO AMERICAN SHIPS.
BUT CANADIANS BUILT A LOT OF
CORVETTES IN OWEN SOUND, IN
HALIFAX, AND THAT METAL MOSTLY
CAME FROM... OR THE ALLOYS TO
MAKE GOOD STEEL, AND WE
SHOULDN'T FORGET, SAULT STE.
MARIE STEEL MILL PRODUCE A LOT
OF THAT STEEL.

Steve says IS IT FAIR TO SAY
THAT WORLD WAR II REPRESENTED AN
ECONOMIC BOOM FOR NORTHERN ONTARIO?

Dieter says IT CHANGED THE COMPLEXION OF
SOME CITIES.
SAULT STE. MARIE AND SUDBURY
GREW A LOT.
TIMMINS AND THE ONES FURTHER
NORTH THAT WERE MINING MOSTLY
GOLD, THEY DIDN'T CHANGE SO
MUCH, ALTHOUGH THEY HAD A LABOUR
SHORTAGE BY 1942-43 AS WELL.
NORTH BAY, OF COURSE BECAUSE
THE... WORLD WAR II ENDS BUT THE
COLD WAR STARTS ALMOST
IMMEDIATELY AND WE CAN SEE THE
DEMOGRAPHIC GROWTH OF NORTH BAY,
2200 PEOPLE WORKING AT THE AIR BASE.

Steve says I WANT TO HAVE,
SHELDON OSMOND, OUR DIRECTOR, IF
YOU WOULDN'T MIND, BRINGING UP A
MAP THAT WE WANT TO SHOW RIGHT
NOW BECAUSE NORTHERN ONTARIO WAS
ALSO REPUTED FOR ITS PRISONER OF
WAR CAMPS.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "World War 2 internment camps in Ontario."

A map of Ontario shows over 10 camps spread throughout the province.

Steve reads data from the slate and says
THERE WERE PRISONER OF WAR CAMPS
BUILT TO HOUSE 35,000 PRISONERS
AND FOR THOSE LISTENING ON
PODCAST, WE'RE BASICALLY LOOKING
AT A MAP OF ONTARIO RIGHT HERE,
FROM INTERNMENT CAMP "R" AT RED
ROCK NORTH OF LAKE SUPERIOR IN
THE NORTH TO CAMP 10, CHATHAM
AND FINGAL ON TOP OF LAKE ERIE
IN SOUTH... I MEAN, THERE ARE
ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE,
SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE, TEN,
ELEVEN, ALMOST A DOZEN PRISONER
OF WAR CAMPS.
WHY WAS NORTHERN ONTARIO SEEN AS
APPARENTLY THE BEST PLACE TO PUT
THESE CAMPS.

The caption changes to "Prisons in the forest."

Dieter says WELL, SOME OF THESE
COMMUNITIES ARE ISOLATED.
IF YOU HAVE PRISONERS OF WAR,
ONE THING YOU WANT IS THEY CAN'T
ESCAPE EASILY.
THEY WERE USED FOR LABOUR, NOT
OFFICERS, BUT MEN, TO CUT WOOD
FOR THE WAR AND FUEL... A NUMBER
OF TASKS WERE GIVEN TO THE
WORKERS.
THEY ACTUALLY SOME OF THEM BUILT
ROADS, SOME OF THEM WORKED ON
THE RAILWAYS, UNDER GUARD.
BUT YOU HAVE TO DISTINGUISH THE
CAMPS.
HE IS PIN KNOLL LA WAS A SMALLER
CAMP.
1500 PEOPLE IN AN OLD PAPER
MILL.
AND CONDITIONS THERE WERE SORT
OF CASUAL IN THE SENSE THAT
PEOPLE COULD GO TO THE HOSPITAL
ACROSS TOWN, AND ONE MAN
APPARENTLY CAME BACK AND THEY
WOULDN'T LET HIM BACK IN.
HE WAS HELD AS A PRISONER.
HE HAD TO GO BACK TO THE
HOSPITAL TO GET A DOCTOR TO
BRING HIM BACK SO HE COULD GET
MONTEITHIN.
MONTEITH WAS FURTHER NORTH.
IT WAS A CAMP THAT HAD AN ODD
COMPLEXION IN THE SENSE THAT
FIRST IT WAS MADE UP OF
PRISONERS FROM BRITAIN.
NOT PRISONERS OF WAR BUT
INTERNEES AND THESE PEOPLE, SOME
OF THEM WERE JEWISH, SOME WERE
ANTI-NAZI.
THEY HAD LEFT GERMANY TO GO TO
BRITAIN TO BE AWAY FROM THE
NAZIS.
AND BRITAIN DIDN'T TRUST THEM.
AND SO THEY SHIPPED 333 PEOPLE
OF JEWISH BACKGROUND, A NUMBER
OF OTHER GERMANS, SOME OF THEM
WERE ENGINEERS AND SOME OF THEM
WERE ALREADY WELL-ESTABLISHED IN
ENGLAND, OFF TO CANADA.
CANADA RELUCTANTLY TOOK THESE
PEOPLE BUT THEY WERE SENT UP TO
MONTEITH.
IT TOOK TWO YEARS TO SORT THEM
OUT AND THEN MOST OF THEM WERE
RELEASED.
HAPPY ENDING THERE.
BUT MONTEITH THEN BECAME A
REGULAR PRISONER OF WAR CAMP FOR
WHICH THE OFFICERS SOMETIMES
TRIED TO ESCAPE AND THAT'S
ANOTHER SIDE OF THE MONTEITH
STORY.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says CAN I DO A BIT OF AN
AWKWARD FULL DISCLOSURE WITH YOU HERE?
OKAY.
THIS IS GOING TO GET WEIRD, BUT
HANG IN THERE WITH ME HERE, ALL
RIGHT?
DIETER, I'M READING YOUR BOOK
AND I'M READING THE PART WITH
ARE THEY TALKED ABOUT PEOPLE WHO
WERE INTERNED IN THESE CAMPS,
AND SUDDENLY, I RECOGNIZE ONE OF
THE NAMES, BECAUSE IT'S MY
WIFE'S GRANDFATHER.
MY WIFE'S GRANDFATHER WAS...
THERE WAS THE KNOCK ON THE DOOR
AND THE RCMP CAME AND
SAID, "YOU'RE COMING WITH US."
AND THEY TOOK HIM OFF AND THEY
PUT HIM IN A CAMP.
THE CHAPTER IN YOUR BOOK THAT
DESCRIBES THIS SAYS HE WAS
ESSENTIALLY... HE SWORE... YOU
KNOW, HE SWORE LOYALTY TO
MUSSOLINI BECAUSE HE WAS OF
ITALIAN BACKGROUND AND THEY
REGARDED HIM AND HIS LIKE AS A
FIFTH COLUMN IN CANADA WHO WERE
A LITTLE TOO SWEET ON FASCISM.
LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE OF
QUESTIONS IN REGARD TO THAT
BECAUSE NEEDLESS TO SAY MY WIFE
HAS A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING
AND INTERPRETATION OF THAT PART
OF HER FAMILY'S HISTORY.
TELL US ABOUT THAT.
HOW MUCH OF THAT HAPPENED IN
NORTHERN ONTARIO DURING THE WAR YEARS?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Dieter says IN 1940, WHEN ITALY JOINED
THE WAR AGAINST THE ALLIES, IN
JUNE 1940, THE RCMP PICKED UP A
NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
700, APPROXIMATELY, OF ITALIAN
BACKGROUND.
860 APPROXIMATELY OF GERMAN
BACKGROUND, AND OF COURSE WE
KNOW MANY FROM JAPANESE IN THE
WEST.
WHAT'S THE BACKGROUND TO THAT
STORY?
THE BACKGROUND IS THAT DURING
THE INTER-WAR YEARS FROM 1920 TO
1939, ITALY UNDER MUSSOLINI
EXPANDED THE... REVIVED ITALY
AND MANY PEOPLE IN CANADA HAD A
KIND OF DIVIDED LOYALTY.
THEY WERE REALLY CONCERNED.
THEY WANTED APPRECIATED THAT
THEIR HOMELAND WAS AGAIN ONE OF
THE WORLD POWERS.
IN ONTARIO, ALL OF ONTARIO, THE
CONSULS, THE ITALIAN CONSULS,
TRIED TO FORM FASCIOS, IN OTHER
WORDS, CLUBS, SPECIAL CLUBS, AND
SOME OF THOSE WERE IN SUDBURY,
SOME OF THEM WERE IN SAULT STE.
MARIE, SOME OF THEM WERE IN
TIMMINS, NORTH BAY.
THOSE FASCIOS, AS YOU SAID, SOME
OF THOSE PEOPLE SWORE LOYALTY TO
MUSSOLINI WAS SOME OF THEM
DIDN'T HAVE CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP
AND OTHERS DID.
SO THE RESULT WAS THE RCMP KEPT
LISTS OF THESE PEOPLE.
NOW, WERE THESE PEOPLE DISLOYAL
TO CANADA, OR WERE THEY JUST
APPRECIATING THEIR HOMELAND?
WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER.
I'M SURE IT'S AN INDIVIDUALISTIC
KIND OF A CASE.
WE DO KNOW THAT THE LISTS THAT
WERE PREPARED IN THE 1930s,
THE RCMP HAD THOSE READY IN 1940.

The caption changes to "Dealing with fascism."

Dieter continues SO GALARDO, A PHOTOGRAPHER IN
SUDBURY... HE'S THEN INTERNED.
THEY SENT HIM TO PETAWAWA.
THE MASCIOLI BROTHERS FROM
TIMMINS ARE SENT TO PETAWAWA
A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, ALMOST
EVERYONE OF
KIRKLAND LAKE, THEY HAD A NUMBER
OF ITALIANS.
THEY WERE MOSTLY NOT CHARGED.
THEY WERE JUST HELD.
SOME OF THEM COULD NOT SEE THEIR
FAMILIES, SO THEY COULDN'T
RESPOND IN ANY WAY OR GET HELP,
WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE
MASCIOLI FROM TIMMINS BURP RICH
ENTREPRENEURS, THEY RAN GARAGES,
THEATRES, ROOMING HOUSES, AND
THEY HAD THE HELP OF A NUMBER OF
RICH PEOPLE FROM TORONTO, SO BY
1942, THEY WERE ALSO RELEASED.
SO IT'S A STORY THAT IS COMPLEX
IN THE SENSE THAT THERE'S A
BACKGROUND.
PEOPLE WITH DUAL LOYALTY.
AND YET AT THE SAME TIME IT'S A
QUESTION FOR THE STATE: DO WE
TRUST PEOPLE WHO ARE OF DUAL
LOYALTY OR NOT?

Steve says IN THE CASE OF THE
JAPANESE CANADIANS, WITH THE
FULLNESS OF TIME, OUR
GOVERNMENTS HAVE DECIDED IN
THEIR WISDOM THAT THESE WERE
PEOPLE WHO WERE INAPPROPRIATELY
INTERNED AND AS A RESULT WERE
DUE AN APOLOGY AND COMPENSATION.
NOT SURE THAT'S BEEN THE CASE
FOR THE ITALIAN CANADIANS...

Dieter says MULRONEY BASICALLY SAID THAT
THE STATE WAS WRONG TO DO THIS.

Steve says RIGHT.

Dieter says THERE HAS BEEN NO
COMPENSATION OFFERED...

Steve says BECAUSE IF YOUR
SOURCES ARE RCMP, WE KNOW HOW
THE RCMP FELT ABOUT THESE FOLKS.

Dieter says I THINK THE CASE IS, OF SOME
OF THE FAMILIES, THAT THEY WERE
INNOCENT BYSTANDERS, HAD BEEN
PRESSED BY THE ITALIAN
CONSULATES TO JOIN UP THE FASCIO
CLUBS.
OTHERS WERE QUITE ENTHUSIASTIC.
WE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT SOME OF
THEM GAVE MONEY TO THE ITALIAN
RED CROSS DURING THE ETHIOPIAN
WARS, AND SOME OF THEM WENT
AROUND COLLECTING FUNDS FOR THE
ITALIAN ENTERPRISES, WHICH ONE
CAN SEE AS, OKAY, DIVIDED
LOYALTY ISSUE.
IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM TREASONOUS.
I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

Steve says LET'S MOVE ON.
EDWARD BROZIG.
WHO WAS HE?

A grainy black and white picture shows a clean-shaven young man.

Dieter says HE WAS AN OFFICER.
HE ESCAPED IN 1942 IN A LAUNDRY
BAG AND HE'S RECAPTURED AS FAR
AWAY AS NEW YORK STATE.
HE'S RETURNED TO MONTEITH.
1943, MIDDLE OF THE YEAR, HE
ESCAPES ONCE MORE AND HE GETS AS
FAR AS NORTH BAY BEFORE HE'S
RECAPTURED.
SO THEY DECIDE TO PUT HIM OUT
WEST IN A CAMP, I THINK IT WAS
LETHBRIDGE, AND HE ESCAPES ONCE
MORE.
HE MAKES IT BACK USING THE
RAILWAY AS FAR AS COCHRANE.

Steve says HOW MANY TIMES DID
HE ESCAPE ALTOGETHER?

Dieter says AT LEAST THREE TIMES.
MAYBE FOUR.

Steve says DID THEY GET HIM
BACK EVERY TIME?

Dieter says YUP.
BUT IT'S AN INTERESTING CASE.
ESPINOLA, TWO MEN ESCAPED AS
WELL.
ONE WAS ACTUALLY SHOT, SO A
DIFFERENT ENDING.

Steve says ONE SURPRISING THING
YOU CHOSE TO INCLUDE IN YOUR
BOOK WAS SOME OF THE DARKER,
MORE UNCOMFORTABLE SIDES, OF
SOLDIERS' LIVES, WHEN THEY WENT
AWOL, WHEN THEY WERE FIGHTING
WITH FELLOW SOLDIERS, WHEN THEY
WERE LOOTING, WHEN THEY WERE
INVOLVED IN KIND OF LEWD SEXUAL
BEHAVIOUR AND SO ON.
WHY IS ALL OF THAT IN THE BOOK?

The caption changes to "Really getting to know them."

Dieter says I BELIEVE IN WHAT I CALL FULL
AND FAIR HISTORY.
I THINK WE SHOULDN'T PRETEND
THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ON LEAVE...
SURE, SOME OF THEM ARE DOING
TOURS, BUT SOME OF THEM ARE OUT
CATCHING VD.
THIS IS NORMAL LIFE.
ESPECIALLY WITH REGARD TO THE
SOLDIER, HAPPENS TO BE FROM
[indiscernible]
WHO IS CAUGHT
BY THE BRITISH RAF POLICE.
HE'S IN THE PROCESS OF RAPING A
YOUNG GIRL AND HE GETS SHOT.
WE THINK WE SHOULD PUT THE
SCOUNDRELS IN.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I THINK WE
SHOW THERE WERE FEW SCOUNDRELS.
THEY STOLE FROM THE GERMANS WHEN
THEY OCCUPIED THE COUNTRY.
I THINK THAT IS NORMAL ACTIVITY
WHEN YOU YOURSELF ARE ON SHORT
RATIONS.
YES, WE INCLUDE THAT BECAUSE...
JUST AS THE MAIN ARGUMENT IN OUR
BOOK, WHICH WE HAVEN'T SORT OF
SAID YET, IS THAT WE HAVE TO
INCLUDE THE PEOPLE FROM
NORTHEASTERN ONTARIO IN THE
REGULAR STUDIES.
TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE, 19TH OF
AUGUST, 1942, THE DIEPPE RAID,
WHO WAS THERE?
WELL, IF YOU READ THE STANDARD
ACCOUNTS, IT WAS ALL PEOPLE FROM
SOUTHERN ONTARIO IN THE ROYAL
HAMILTON LIGHT INFANTRY AND THE
ROYAL REGIMENT OF CANADA.
ONE IDENTIFIED WITH HAMILTON,
OBVIOUSLY.
THE OTHER IDENTIFIED WITH
TORONTO.
AND YET OUR BOOK SHOWS A LIST OF
20 PEOPLE WHO DIE AT DIEPPE,
THEY'RE ALL FROM BETWEEN TIMMINS
AND SUDBURY.
WE HAVE A LIST OF MORE THAN 20
THAT BECOME PRISONERS OF WAR.
WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY WERE
WOUNDED AND BROUGHT BACK.
WE HAVE SOME EXAMPLES.
SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING IN THAT
CASE IS, IF YOU TALK ABOUT
DIEPPE, DON'T QUOTE SAYING
THEY'RE ALL ENLISTED FROM
SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO.
ACKNOWLEDGE WHERE THESE PEOPLE
ARE FROM.
IF THE ROYAL HAMILTON LIGHT
INFANTRY, IF MORE THAN 10 percent OF
ITS CASUALTIES ARE FROM UP
NORTH.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says DO YOU THINK THE
OFFICIAL HISTORY OF THIS
COUNTRY'S PARTICIPATION IN THE
TWO GREAT WARS UNDERVALUES THE
CONTRIBUTION BY PEOPLE FROM
NORTHERN AND NORTHEASTERN
ONTARIO IN PARTICULAR?

Dieter says WE'RE A COUNTRY MADE UP OF
REGIONS AND BECAUSE OF THE FACT
THAT THE UNITS, THE BATTALIONS
THAT ARE FORMED USUALLY ARE
IDENTIFIED WITH A PLACE, THEY
TEND TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH
BIGGER PLACES, AND THEREFORE...
I'M NOT TALKING ONLY ABOUT
NORTHEAST ONTARIO BEING
UNDERMARGINALLIZED OR UNDERRATED
OR UNDER CONSIDERED.
THE CONTRIBUTIONS CAME FROM
EVERYWHERE.
ALTHOUGH WE CAN MAKE ESTIMATES
OF HOW MANY ENLISTED FROM
DIFFERENT AREAS AND PATTERNS
SHOW NORTHEASTERN ONTARIO WAS
HIGHER THAN THE AVERAGE.

Steve says LET ME READ AN
EXCERPT FROM YOUR BOOK HERE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "All that was left." The quote reads "We need to imagine ourselves in the situation of a family that receives a package with a solder's so called effects, as the Dool family of North Bay did: On July 13, 1945, my grandmother received John's personal effects -a 6 and a half inches by 10 and a half inches by 5 inches cardboard box, containing a bible, a sewing kit, an Italian-English dictionary, a manicure set, a few small souvenirs from Florence and Rome, some spare buttons, and uniform flashes. Wat a small package, what a stark reflection of the last days of a loved one."
Quoted from Dieter K. Buse and Graeme Mount, "Untold." 2019.

Steve says WE HAVE A PICTURE HERE.
IF WE CAN DISSOLVE TO THAT...

A picture shows the box described and its contents.

Steve says THANKS, SHELDON.
THERE WE ARE.
FOR THOSE LISTENING ON PODCAST,
I'LL JUST DESCRIBE.
THIS LOOKS LIKE... YOU KNOW,
HERE'S A PAIR OF SCISSORS,
THERE'S SOME STARS, METALS, THAT
KIND OF THING, SOME TWEEZERS.
JUST SOME PERSONAL ARTEFACTS.
AND I GUESS BASICALLY I WANT TO
ASK, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK
WHEN ALL YOU SEE LEFT IS A
HANDFUL OF ARTEFACTS WHICH ARE
SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT A GUY'S LIFE?

Dieter says YES.
WE HAVE MANY TOUCHING LETTERS
FROM THE FAMILIES THAT INDICATE
THEY WANTED SOME... ONE WOMAN
WHOSE SON WAS SHATTER DOWN,
DiMARCO FROM TIMMINS, THE
FLYER, AND SHE WRITES CAN'T I
HAVE SOME SIGN... GIVE ME MY
SON, BASICALLY, IS WHAT SHE
SAYS.
AND NOVEMBER 1945, SHE IS STILL
ASKING FOR SOME EFFECTS, SOME
REMAINS.

Steve says THIS IS MONTHS AFTER
THE WAR IS OVER.

Dieter says MONTHS AFTER THE WAR.
WE HAVE CASES THAT A YEAR AND A
HALF LATER, SOMEONE IS ASKING
FOR THE PERSON'S PEN AND THEIR
BUTTONS FROM THE UNIFORM OR
ANYTHING THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE
FROM THEM.
THE RESPONSE FROM THE DEPARTMENT
OF NATIONAL DEFENCE, YOU HAVE TO
REMEMBER, ONE MILLION PEOPLE
SERVED IN THIS WAR.
TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL OF THOSE
MEN AND ESPECIALLY ON THE
BATTLEFIELD... THERE'S ONE
TOUCHING LETTER THAT I REMEMBER
WHERE ONE OF THE OFFICERS IS
WRITING TO THE MOTHER... HE'S
THE OFFICER FROM THE UNIT WHICH
THE MAN WAS KILLED, AND HE SAID:
WE HAVE HAD THREE OFFICERS ON
THE SCENE TRYING TO FIND THE
PIECES FOR YOU.
IT'S A PACKAGE THAT CAME LIKE
THIS AND FAMILIES WERE OFTEN
VERY SHOCKED AT WHAT THEY
RECEIVED.
EVEN WORSE IS ONE CASE FROM
MANITOULIN WHERE A MAN BY THE
NAME OF WAGG, HE'S WRITING
LETTERS HOME, "I'LL BE COMING
HOME SOON," THIS IS IN APRIL
APRIL 1945.
IN 1945 HE'S STILL IN GERMANY
AND HE STEPS ON A LANDMINE, SO
HE DOESN'T COME HOME.
THESE ARE THE STORIES WE INCLUDE
BECAUSE WE THINK IT SHOULD BE A
STORY OF THE SOCIAL LIFE OF
SOLDIERS.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU READ THE
PART WHERE WE HAVE 493 LETTERS
SENT BY A SOLDIER TO HIS
GIRLFRIEND.
IT'S A CHARMING ACCOUNT.
IT'S SO DETAILED ABOUT COOKING,
ABOUT GOING TO THE COUNTRYSIDE,
DANCING, AND THE TOUGHNESS OF
BEING AWAY FROM FAMILY.
AND THEN ANOTHER ONE OF A
NURSING... WE HAVEN'T MENTIONED
WOMEN HERE.
BY THE WAY, THERE WERE ALSO MANY
WOMEN IN THE AIR FORCE AND IN THE...

Steve says MOSTLY NURSES?

Dieter says ABOUT FOUR AND A HALF
THOUSAND NURSING SISTERS AND
THEY WERE TREATED AS OFFICERS.
AND WE HAVE THESE LETTERS HOME
FROM ONE OF THEM FROM ITALY, AND
WHAT IS SHE ASKING FOR?
ALL THOSE THINGS OF DAILY LIFE.
PLEASE SEND MORE GUM.
I MEAN, THEY ALL WANTED
CIGARETTES, BECAUSE EVERYBODY
SMOKED, AND THERE WERE
COMMITTEES CALLED COMFORT
COMMITTEES FOR THE MEN, AND THEY
SENT THESE COMFORTS, MOSTLY
CIGARETTES, AND SOMETIMES IN THE
CASE OF SHIPS, VERY DIFFERENT.
SHIPS WERE NAMED AFTER
COMMUNITIES, AND IT WAS A WAY BY
WHICH TO ENCOURAGE PATRIOTISM.
SO COPPER CLIFF, SUDBURY,
KAPUSKASING, TIMMINS, EVERY
NORTHERN CITY OR TOWN HAD A SHIP
NAMED AFTER IT, AND ONE OF THE
CHARMING THINGS IS THE COPPER
CLIFF, THE CAPTAIN OF THE SHIP
WRITES TO COPPER CLIFF.
HE SAYS WHAT THE NAVY DOESN'T
GIVE US IS WASHING MACHINES,
RADIOS, AND OF COURSE A REQUEST
FOR CIGARETTES.
COPPER CLIFF'S COMMITTEE GETS
TOGETHER, THEY GET ENOUGH MONEY
THAT WHAT DO THEY DO?
THEY SEND RADIO, WASHING
MACHINES, THEY SENT A PIANO.

Steve says AND NO CIGARETTES.

Dieter says OH, YEAH.

Steve says THEY GOT CIGARETTES
TOO.
LET'S FINISH UP ON THIS, DIETER.
WHEN THE WAR ENDED IN 1945, WHAT
IMPACT DID THAT HAVE ON NORTHERN
ONTARIO?

The caption changes to "When the guns fell silent."

Dieter says FIRST IT DROVE WOMEN OUT OF
WORK.
WOMEN HAD WORKED IN THE SMELTER,
THEY HAD WORKED AT THE INCO
SMELTER.
WOMEN'S MOTIVATION FOR
PARTICIPATING IS QUITE DIRECT.
WE JOIN BECAUSE WE WANT TO
REPLACE MEN.
AND SOME OF THEM JOIN BECAUSE,
OF COURSE, THEY'RE GOING TO GET
A SALARY AND FOOD AND CLOTHING.
ONE DENTAL ASSISTANT, I
SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER HER
SAYING, THIS IS MUCH BETTER PAY
THAN I GOT.
SO THERE'S DIFFERENT MOTIVATIONS
FOR JOINING.
BUT THE MAIN PART OF YOUR
QUESTION... WHEN THEY CAME HOME
AND WHAT IT DID TO THE ECONOMY,
BECAUSE THE WOMEN WERE THEN
ACTUALLY BASICALLY DISMISSED
FROM THE PLANTS AND THE MEN WERE
GIVEN THE JOBS BACK.
AND THAT PATTERN OF THE 1950s
AND '60s OF ONE SUPPORTING A
FAMILY WAS REINTRODUCED.

Steve says AND IT WAS THE MAN'S WAGE.

Dieter says THE MAN'S WAGE.
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS.
THE OTHER THING OF COURSE IN
MANY PLACES IT CAUSED A
RECESSION WHEN THE WAR ENDED
UNTIL THE KOREAN WAR STARTED.
YOU DIDN'T NEED METAL FOR SHIPS
AND SO ON.
SO SUDBURY WENT INTO VERY
QUICKLY A PERIOD OF DECLINE.
NORTH BAY, BECAUSE OF THE
BUILDING OF THE UNDERGROUND
BUNKER, IT ACTUALLY INCREASES
THE ECONOMY THERE.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says GOTCHA.
WE WANT TO THANK YOU FOR COMING
DOWN FROM SUDBURY TO OUR STUDIO
IN MIDTOWN TORONTO TO TELL US
ABOUT "UNTOLD: NORTHEASTERN
ONTARIO'S MILITARY PAST."
THIS IS THE SECOND VOLUME.
WORLD WAR II TO PEACEKEEPING.
THAT'S DIETER BUSE.
THANKS SO MUCH, DIETER.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Dieter says THANK YOU.

Watch: Northern Ontario's WWII Sacrifices