Transcript: The Undoing of History | Jan 08, 2020

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, white shirt, and checked blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "The undoing of history. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says HOW CAN THESE TWO
THINGS BOTH BE TRUE AT THE SAME
TIME?
ON ONE HAND, ENROLLMENT IN
HISTORY MAJORS HAS SLID FARTHER
AND FASTER THAN MOST ANY OTHER
HUMANITIES DISCIPLINE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, POPULAR
ENGAGEMENT WITH HISTORY -
THROUGH PODCASTS AND
DOCUMENTARIES AND SO ON - IS
THRIVING.
WHAT'S GOING ON, PARTICULARLY IN
A TIME THAT DESPERATELY NEEDS
RELIABLE HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE?
LET'S ASK:
THABIT A.J. ABDULLAH, CHAIR OF
THE HISTORY DEPARTMENT AT YORK
UNIVERSITY...

Thabit is in his late fifties, bald, with a full beard. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt and red tie.

Steve continues CHRISTOPHER DUMMITT, ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT TRENT
UNIVERSITY'S SCHOOL FOR THE
STUDY OF CANADA...

Christopher is in his late forties, with receding blond hair. He's wearing a gray suit and a checkered blue shirt.

Steve continues AND IAN MILLIGAN, ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
WATERLOO.

Ian is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with wavy brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a blue suit and a gray shirt.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME
EVERYBODY TO TVO TONIGHT.
AND LET ME BE JUST A LITTLE BIT
PREFERENTIAL.
YOU ESPECIALLY, IF I MAY SAY.
YOU USED TO BE ON THIS PROGRAM A
LOT BACK IN THE DAY IN STUDIO 2
A LONG TIME AGO.
WE HAVEN'T HAD YOU HERE IN A
WHILE AND IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU
AGAIN.

Thabit says THANK YOU.
IT'S A PLEASURE.

Steve says LET ME PUT YOU TO
WORK HERE.
EARLIER THIS YEAR THE ECONOMIST
REPORTED THAT THE NUMBER OF
STUDENTS STUDYING HISTORY IN THE
U.K. DECLINED 10 percent IN THE LAST
DECADE.
IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S 30 percent.
WE HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE
THINGS ARE ANY DIFFERENT HERE IN
CANADA BUT YOU'RE GOING TO TELL
US.
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR
DEPARTMENT AT YORK?

The caption changes to "Thabit A.J. Abdullah. York University."
Then, it changes again to "Declining enrolments."

Thabit says THERE WAS A HUGE DECLINE AFTER THE
FINANCIAL CRISIS, REALLY.
ONE CAN DATE IT, ACTUALLY, QUITE
PRECISELY.
AFTER THE FINANCIAL CRISIS 2008,
THERE WAS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT
OF WORRY ABOUT JOBS AND SO FORTH
AND TRAINING FOR JOBS.
AT THE SAME TIME, THE MOST
HISTORY MAJORS TENDED TO GO INTO
EDUCATION, AND IT WAS EXACTLY AT
THAT SAME TIME THAT THERE WAS A
SATURATION IN TERMS OF THE
AMOUNT OF TEACHERS THAT WERE
BEING IN DEMAND, ESPECIALLY IN
THE TORONTO AREA.
SO WHEN I WAS CHAIR OF
UNDERGRADUATE STUDIES AT YORK...
AND THIS WAS BEFORE 2008... WE
HAD ABOUT 1,500 MAJORS IN OUR
DEPARTMENT.
IT WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST
DEPARTMENTS IN ALL OF NORTH
AMERICA.
NOW WE HAVE ABOUT 500.

Steve says YOU'VE LOST 1,000
STUDENTS.

Thabit says YES, WE'VE LOST 1,000
STUDENTS.
AND THIS IS ALSO TRUE OF GENERAL
ENROLMENTS.
NOW, I MUST SAY THAT THAT
DECLINE HAS NOW LEVELED OFF AND
IS BEGINNING TO CLIMB AGAIN, BUT
RATHER SLOWLY.

Steve says WHAT'S THE
EXPERIENCE AT WATERLOO, IAN?

The caption changes to "Ian Mulligan. University of Waterloo."

Ian says SIMILAR.
THINKING BACK TO THE LAST
NUMBERS I SAW.
2011, RIGHT BEFORE I SHOWED UP,
WE HAD SOMEWHERE... WE'RE A
SMALLER SCHOOL THAN YORK FOR
ARTS... SOMEWHERE AROUND 220-ISH
MAJORS.
WE HIT A LOW IN 2016 OF I WANT
TO SAY HIGH 70s.
WE CRAWLED BACK UP TO 89 OR 90.
SO IT'S WORSE THAN WE'RE SEEING
IN THE UNITED STATES.

Steve says YOUR SITUATION AT TRENT?

The caption changes to "Christopher Dummitt."

Christopher says AT TRENT THE NUMBER HAS PLUMMETED.
I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT NUMBERS.
I HOPE IT'S NOT JUST ME, BUT I
DON'T THINK IT IS... IT'S NOT
JUST ME... THEY HAVE.
I THINK THE NUMBERS HAVE HALVED.
TRENT, LOTS OF STUDENTS WERE
GOING THROUGH TEACHING.
I ASKED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE
YEAR HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT TO BE
TEACHERS.
THREE-QUARTERS OF THE STUDENTS
PUT UP THEIR HANDS IN A TYPICAL
CANADIAN HISTORY CLASS.
YOU STILL GET A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHO WANT TO BE TEACHERS BUT THE
NUMBERS HAVE JUST GONE AWAY.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR THEORY
ON THIS, CHRIS?

Christopher says I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.
IT'S A LOT ABOUT THE ECONOMY.
I THINK THAT'S DEFINITELY PART
OF IT.
SOME OF IT IS OUT THERE.
SOME OF IT IS IN THINGS IN THE
ECONOMY.
SOME OF IT MIGHT ALSO BE WHAT
WE'RE DOING IS MAYBE WRONG AND
ISN'T ATTRACTING STUDENTS.

Steve says I WANT TO UNPACK
THAT MORE A LITTLE BIT LATER.
IAN, DO WE NOT LIKE HISTORY AS
MUCH AS WE ONCE DID?
IS THAT PART OF THIS PUZZLE?

The caption changes to "Ian Milligan, @ianmilligan1."

Ian says I THINK WHEN
WE LOOK AT, DO PEOPLE LIKE
HISTORY?
THEY DO.
THEY LIKE MOVIES.
THEY LIKE HISTORICALLY THEMED
PODCASTS.
THEY LIKE READING HISTORICALLY
THEMED BOOKS.
SOMETHING HAPPENS THOUGH WHEN
THEY COME INTO A UNIVERSITY
CLASSROOM IN FIRST OR SECOND
YEAR AND I DON'T THINK WE EXCITE
THAT LEARNING TO MAKE THEM COME
BACK.

Steve says YOU'RE LOOKING IN
THE MIRROR FOR PART OF THE
EXPLANATION HERE.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING OR NOT DOING
THAT YOU THINK IS CONTRIBUTING
TO THE FALL-OFF?

Ian says I THINK WHAT CHRIS WAS
SAYING, WE'RE USING THE
EDUCATION PATHWAY, WE'RE USING
THE LAW PATHWAY.
THAT'S FINE.
I LOOK AT ARTS AND WE'RE LOSING
MORE THAN OTHER DISCIPLINES.
WHY IS THAT?
I THINK PART OF IT IS...
SOMETIMES WHEN WE TRY TO SELL
HISTORY, THEY COME INTO OUR
CLASSROOMS AND WE SAY COME HERE
FOR CRITICAL THINKING, COME HERE
FOR WRITING SKILLS, COME HERE
FOR YOUR COMMUNICATION SKILLS.
THAT'S FINE.
THAT DOESN'T GET TO THE CORE OF
WHAT MAKES HISTORY SPECIAL.

Steve says AND THE CORE IS...

Ian says TO ME THE CORE IS AN
UNDERSTANDING OF AMBIGUITY, AN
UNDERSTANDING OF CONTEXT.
THE ABILITY TO TAKE SCATTERED,
ISOLATED DATA POINTS IN AN
ARCHIVE OR LIBRARY HERE AND
WEAVE IT TOGETHER INTO A REALLY
COMPELLING STORY THAT FIRES UP
STUDENTS, FIRES UP AUDIENCES.

The caption changes to "Engaging with the past."

Steve says WHEN YOU LOOK IN THE
MIRROR, WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO
YOU THINK THE WAY YOU TEACH AND
YOUR PROFESSORS TEACH?

Thabit says RIGHT.
THERE ARE TWO ELEMENTS.
THERE ARE OBJECTIVE CONDITIONS,
AND I'M SPEAKING NOW LIKE AN
HISTORIAN, I GUESS, THE
FINANCIAL CRISIS, GENERALLY THE
MOOD OF ESPECIALLY NORTH
AMERICA, FOCUS ON IDENTITY
POLITICS, ET CETERA.
AND THEN THERE ARE THE
SUBJECTIVE ELEMENTS OF WHAT
SHOULD ADMINISTRATIONS, HISTORY
DEPARTMENTS, OR EVEN INDIVIDUAL
FACULTY MEMBERS DO?
I THINK THAT THIS CRISIS, OR
MINI CRISIS, COULD BE A BLESSING
IN DISGUISE, BECAUSE IT COULD
SHAKE US A BIT AND MAKE US
REALLY CONSIDER HOW WE'VE BEEN
DEALING WITH TEACHING HISTORY
AND ATTRACTING STUDENTS.
THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS I
THINK THAT WE CAN DO.
WE CAN... I MEAN, I HATE TO USE
THIS WORD, BUT IN THE COMMERCIAL
MIND SET THAT WE'RE ALL IN, WE
CAN MARKET HISTORY A LITTLE BIT
BETTER.
WE DON'T KNOW THE EXACT FIGURES
HERE IN CANADA.
THE CANADIAN HISTORICAL
ASSOCIATION HASN'T DONE A GOOD
STUDY ON REALLY HOW WELL DO
HISTORY... HOW WELL DO... HOW
WELL DO HISTORY MAJORS DO IN THE
MARKET AFTER THEY GRADUATE?
AND THEY ACTUALLY DO VERY WELL.
VERY WELL.
EXCEPTIONALLY WELL.
IN FACT, THEY EVEN COMPETE WITH
SOME OF THE SCIENCE MAJORS IN
TERMS OF GETTING JOBS.
THERE'S A RATHER LOW
UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG HISTORY
MAJORS.
THEY TEND TO EARN GOOD-PAYING
JOBS.

Steve says EXCELLENT CRITICAL
THING, UNDERSTANDING...

Thabit says AND IN FACT THE AMERICAN
HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION HAS
DOCUMENTED THAT THERE'S A LARGE
NUMBER OF EMPLOYERS OF STEM
MAJORS WHO LAMENT THE FACT THAT
THEY WISH THEIR EMPLOYEES KNEW A
BIT MORE ABOUT HISTORY, ABOUT
LIBERAL ARTS, ET CETERA.
I MEAN, THAT'S ONE THING.
WE CAN MARKET OURSELVES A BIT
BETTER.
THE OTHER THING I THINK IS THAT
WE REALLY NEED TO TAKE ANOTHER
LOOK AT THE WAY WE TEACH, AND
THAT IS ALSO RATHER COMPLEX.

Steve says WELL, LET'S GET INTO
THAT HERE.
CHRIS, IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT
THE WAY YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES
STAND AT THE FRONT OF A CLASS
AND TEACH 18, 19-YEAR-OLD YOUNG
PEOPLE THAT'S NOT RESONATING
TODAY IN A WAY IT MIGHT HAVE 25
OR 30 YEARS AGO?

The caption changes to "Christopher Dummitt, @chrisdummitt1."

Christopher says SO MAYBE.
I'M 46.
SO I DON'T KNOW, REALLY,
ANYMORE.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ACADEMIC
SPECIALIZATION IS A PROBLEM,
RIGHT?
IS WE SPECIALIZE.
SPECIALIZATION HAPPENS
EVERYWHERE IN EVERY FIELD.
I THINK WHY IT MATTERS IN
HISTORY IS... WE TEND TO ASSUME
THAT STUDENTS ARE GOING TO BE
INTERESTED IN THE PARTICULAR
NICHES THAT WE'RE INTERESTED IN.
YOU KNOW, THE ESSENCE OF HISTORY
IS: WHAT HAPPENED?
WHEN DID IT HAPPEN?
AND WE ALL WANT TO TALK ABOUT
THE WHY AND ARGUE ABOUT IT.
BUT STUDENTS COMING IN AT 17, 18
YEARS OLD, THEY DON'T HAVE THE
WHAT AND WHEN.
AND WE JUST HAVE TO FOCUS ON:
WHAT HAPPENED?
WHEN DID IT HAPPEN?
AND HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE THAT
THE HISTORY WE'RE GOING TO
TEACH... IT MATTERS AND THEY
NEED TO KNOW THIS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says I WANT TO FOLLOW UP
ON THAT.
IAN, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO
ENGAGE YOUNG PEOPLE IN HISTORY
IN THE DISCUSSIONS OF THE WHYS
AND THE HOWS WHEN, FOR EXAMPLE,
YOUR TYPICAL 18-YEAR-OLD DOESN'T
KNOW WHO FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT IS.

Ian says YEAH, PRECISELY.
THAT'S BEEN REALLY OUR STRUGGLE
IN HISTORICAL EDUCATION.
WE WANT TO DEVELOP THESE SKILLS.
AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE TO
DELIVER A LOT OF CONTENT, AS
CHRISTOPHER WAS EXPLAINING.
AND THAT'S DOUBLE THE BURDEN I
THINK THAN MANY OF OUR OTHER
DISCIPLINES WHO CAN FOCUS ON
SKILLS OR CONTENT.
WE'RE TRYING TO BRING BOTH
TOGETHER.
SO WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM.
WE OFTEN TEND TO SAY, IF THEY'RE
NOT DOING THE READINGS, LET'S
FOCUS ON THE LECTURE EXPERIENCE.
LET'S FOCUS ON HAVING LECTURES.
IS THAT WORKING WITH STUDENTS
WHEN YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE OTHER
DISTRACTIONS, WHEN YOU'RE USED
TO MORE ENGAGEMENT?
I DON'T THINK SO.
WHEN I THINK OF MY OWN CLASSES
AND OTHER EXPERIENCES WE'VE HAD,
THE TIME WHEN I SEE THEM GET
FIRED UP IS WHEN WE CAN GET THEM
TO CREATE THE KNOWLEDGE
THEMSELVES.
TO GO INTO AN ARCHIVE AND LOOK
AT SOME OF THE RAW MATERIALS
THAT AN ARCHIVIST HAS CREATED
FOR THEM.
THEY LOOK AT THE MATERIALS AND
SAY THIS CREATES THE FACTS.

Steve says THAT PROCESS OF
DISCOVERY IS A REAL TURN-ON.

Ian says WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE
CONTEXT.
IF WE DON'T, HISTORY BECOMES
BORING DATES AND PEOPLE.
IF WE GO TOO FAR DOWN THAT LINE,
WE TURN THOSE STUDENTS AWAY.

Steve says LET ME READ FROM THE
ECONOMIST AND IT WILL START OUR
NEXT DISCUSSION HERE.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD, BRING THE
GRAPHIC UP?

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Time for a turn around." The quote reads "Historian increasingly devote themselves to subjects other than great matters of state: the history of the marginal rather than the powerful, the poor rather than the rich, everyday life rather than parliament. These fashions were a valuable corrective to an old-school history that focused almost exclusively on the deeds of white men, particularly politicians. But they have gone too far. Indeed, some historians almost seem to be engaged in a race to discover the most marginalized subject imaginable. What were once lively new ideas have degenerated into tired orthodoxies, while vital areas of the pat, such as constitutional and military affairs are all but ignored."
Quoted from The Economist. July 18, 2019.

Steve says THABIT, DO YOU SIGN
ONTO SOME OF THAT, ALL OF THAT?

Thabit says COMPLETELY.

Steve says COMPLETELY.

Thabit says COMPLETELY I AGREE WITH IT.
I THINK MORE AND MORE, MY
COLLEAGUES AND I ARE RECOGNIZING
THIS.
YES, AFTER... BEGINNING, REALLY,
DURING THE '60s, THERE WAS A
REAL INNOVATIVE REACTION TO THE
GREAT MAN PERIOD OF HISTORY AND
A LOT OF EXCELLENT WORK HAS COME
OUT IN THE FORM OF SOCIAL AND
CULTURAL HISTORY AND SO FORTH.
BUT I DO AGREE THAT WE HAVE GONE
A BIT TOO FAR... SOME OF US
ANYWAY... AND THAT THERE'S A
REAL NEED NOW TO REBALANCE THE
SHIP.
FOR EXAMPLE, I CAN TELL YOU THAT
STUDENTS ARE NOT JUST DEMANDING,
YOU KNOW, NICE SEXY TOPICS, BUT
THEY ARE DEMANDING SOME OF THE
REAL BASIC SUBJECTS THAT WERE
THE STUFF OF THE OLD WAY OF
TEACHING HISTORY.
FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S QUITE A BIT
OF DEMAND FOR MILITARY HISTORY.
THERE'S DEMAND FOR BASIC SURVEYS
OF EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.
ONE OF OUR MOST POPULAR COURSES,
FOR EXAMPLE, IS BASICALLY A
SURVEY OF MEDIEVAL EUROPE.
NOW, YOU'D THINK THAT WOULD BE
SO BORING FOR STUDENTS, BUT IT'S
QUITE POPULAR BECAUSE... AND
THIS BRINGS ME BACK TO THE ISSUE
OF TEACHING... THE PROFESSOR IS
EXCELLENT.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOME REALLY
EXCELLENT PROFESSORS THAT
ATTRACT STUDENTS.
THEY'RE VERY CHARISMATIC.
THEY PRESENT THE MATERIAL IN A
WAY THAT ATTRACTS STUDENTS.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I
THINK MANY HISTORY DEPARTMENTS
HAVE UNDERVALUED.
WE PUT SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON
RESEARCH AS THE ISSUE THAT
DETERMINES PROMOTION AND SO
FORTH.
NOT ENOUGH ON TEACHING.

Steve says I DON'T WANT TO TAKE
ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE SAGE ON
THE STAGE, RIGHT, AT THE FRONT
OF THE CLASS.
BUT I WILL... I WILL PUT THIS
FORWARD, AND I WANT TO HEAR YOUR
FEEDBACK ON THIS.
I'VE GOT A KID I WAS TALKING TO
ABOUT WORLD WAR II THE OTHER DAY
AND SHE KNEW MORE THAN I THOUGHT
SHE HAD ANY BUSINESS KNOWING.
AND WHERE DID SHE LEARN IT FROM?
PLAYING VIDEO GAMES.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says NOW, I WONDER HOW
MUCH OF THAT... YOU KNOW, HOW
MUCH OF THAT BACKGROUND IS AN
ASSET TO YOU IN WHAT YOU'RE
TRYING TO DO?

Christopher says WELL,
IF I'M TEACHING THE HISTORY OF
WORLD WAR II, THAT'S FANTASTIC.
I CAN USE IT AS A CORRECTIVE.
YOU CAN SAY WHAT DID THE GAME
GET RIGHT, WHAT DID IT GET
WRONG?
I'M NOT GOING TO ASSIGN VIDEO
GAMES OF ACTUAL HOMEWORK.
MAYBE I WILL.
I'M IN THE MIDST OF CREATING A
PODCAST AND I'M GOING TO USE IT
TO TAKE PLACE IN THE LECTURE.

Steve says SHE KNEW BATTLES,
SHE KNEW DATES, AND SHE LEARNED
IT FROM PLAYING A VIDEO GAME.
PRESUMABLY THAT'S USEFUL.

Christopher says I THINK IT IS.

Steve says AT A CERTAIN POINT
ANYWAY.

Christopher says IT'S JUST THE CONTENT.
YOU CAN'T... YOU CAN'T CORRECT A
STORY THAT STUDENTS HAVEN'T
HEARD THE FIRST TIME.

Steve says MM-HMM.
THE EXPERIENCE THAT THE
ECONOMIST WAS DESCRIBING WAS, OF
COURSE, BEING A BRITISH
MAGAZINE, IT WAS DESCRIBING THE
BRITISH UNIVERSITY SCENE.
DID THAT RESONATE FOR YOU HERE
IN ONTARIO?

Ian says IT STRUCK ME
AS A LITTLE BIT OF A STRAW MAN.
I THINK YOU CAN GO THROUGH AN
ACADEMIC DEPARTMENT OR GO
THROUGH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE
AMERICAN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION
OR THE CANADIAN HISTORICAL
ASSOCIATION, AND YOU COULD FIND
SOME TRULY ESOTERIC TOPICS.
IT'S A FUN THING TO DO.
BUT I THINK ULTIMATELY, WHEN I
THINK OF ALL THE SCHOLARSHIP I
SEE, ALL OF THE BOOKS AND
ARTICLES THAT I ENGAGE WITH, I
THINK AT ITS CORE EVEN A
MARGINALIZED SUBJECT, WHEN DONE
WELL... AND I THINK MOST OF OUR
COLLEAGUES DO IT WELL... IT'S
CONTEXTUALIZED INTO A BROADER
STORY.

Thabit says THAT'S
THE KEY.
IT HAS TO BE RELATED THEN TO THE
BROADER STORY.
SOMETIMES I THINK WE DON'T.

Ian says YES.
I THINK WE SAW WITH POLITICAL
HISTORY, LONG MALIGNED, WHITE
DEAD MAN HISTORY.
WE'RE TALKING 10 YEARS AGO A
RISE OF A NEW POLITICAL HISTORY.
PEOPLE SAYING, YOU'RE RIGHT.
I DON'T JUST STUDY THE RETURNS
OF ELECTIONS AND, YOU KNOW, THE
VERY NARROW LIVES OF A
POLITICIAN.
BUT MAYBE I DO.
OR MAYBE I STUDY OTHER PEOPLE
AND HOW ARE THESE OTHER
CONSTITUENCIES ARE RELATED TO
IT.
AND I KNOW COMING INTO A FEW OF
THESE MEETINGS AT THE CANADIAN
HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION,
SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TURN
PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE DOOR.
PEOPLE LOVE POLITICAL HISTORY,
AS LONG AS IT SEEMS LIKE A
POLITICAL HISTORY THEY CAN SEE
THEMSELVES AND WHAT THEY'RE
INTERESTED IN STUDYING REFLECTED
IN.

Steve says I WANT TO FOLLOW UP
WITH YOU ON THIS.
YOU WROTE A REVIEW ABOUT A BOOK
ABOUT THE GREAT CANADIAN
HISTORIAN, DONALD CREIGHTON, WHO
I SUSPECT MANY PEOPLE WATCHING
US NOW HAVE NO IDEA WHO HE WAS.

Christopher says PROBABLY NOT.
IF THEY DID, THAT'S FANTASTIC.

Steve says LET'S FACE IT, IT
WAS A LONG TIME AGO THAT HE WAS
DOING HIS THING.
HERE'S WHAT YOU WROTE.
THIS IS FROM THE LRC, LITERARY
REVIEW OF CANADA...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "National stories no more." The quote reads "Canadian historians today largely do not like the idea of the nation. We do not tell national stories. You would be hard pressed to find a Canadian historian who would go on the record today talking about progress. To read the works of contemporary historians is to live in a world where nothing gets better, only different or worse."
Quoted from Christopher Dummitt, Literary Review of Canada. September, 2015.

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S GO HERE.
WHY DO SO MANY CANADIAN
HISTORIANS, IN YOUR VIEW, NOT
LIKE THE NOTION OF OUR TELLING
NATIONAL STORIES?

Christopher says YOU'RE
TRYING TO GET ME IN TROUBLE,
WHICH IS FINE.

Steve says THAT'S MY JOB, SIR.

Christopher says THAT'S GOOD.
THERE'S TWO THINGS THERE.
ONE IS POLITICS AND THEN ONE IS
NATIONALISM.
AND BY NATIONALISM, I MEAN WE
DON'T LIKE BIG IDENTITIES,
IDENTITIES THAT... A NATION IS A
BIG IDENTITY.
WE ALL SHARE THIS THING IN
COMMON.
BECAUSE WE SPECIALIZE SO MUCH
AND BECAUSE WE SPECIALIZE IN
WAYS THAT WE'RE REALLY
INTERESTED IN POWER, WE'RE
FOCUSED ON SMALLER AND SMALLER
IDENTITIES AND CATEGORIES OF
OPPRESSION.
THE NATION SEES IT AS A PROBLEM.
EVEN THOUGH BIG COLLECTIVE
IDENTITIES ARE NATURAL TO HUMAN
SOCIETY, THESE ARE IMPORTANT AND
THEY'RE VERY FUNCTIONAL.
THAT'S ONE THING.
AND THE SECOND THING IS THAT,
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THE... BECAUSE
THE ACADEMIC PROFESSIONS AND THE
HUMANITY SOCIAL SCIENCE AND
HISTORY IS ONE OF THEM ARE SO
SKEWED TO THE LEFT NOW, VASTLY
MORE THAN THEY WERE IN THE
PAST... WE DON'T HAVE GOOD
CANADIAN DATA ON THIS BUT YOU
HAVE GOOD AMERICAN DATA.
THE LAST AMERICAN DATA I SAW,
YOU CAN TELL WHO IS REGISTERED
AS A REPUBLICAN AND WHO IS
REGISTERED AS A DEMOCRAT.
IN HISTORY AT ELITE SCHOOLS, IT
WAS 37-1 DEMOCRATS-REPUBLICAN.
THAT'S HOW SKEWED IT IS.

Steve says THE FACULTY OR
STUDENTS OR WHAT?

Christopher says THE FACULTY.

Steve says AMONG THE
MacCONSULT.

Christopher says LISTEN, I'M NOT A REPUBLICAN.
IF I WAS IN A U.S., I WOULDN'T
BE A REPUBLICAN.
BUT THAT'S A PROBLEM.
THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN
CANADA.
IF WE'RE SEEING THE PAST THROUGH
THESE POLITICALLY SKEWED LENSES,
WE'RE NOT GETTING THE FULL STORY
AND ALSO WE'RE NOT CHALLENGING
OURSELVES.
LIKE, YOU KNOW, IAN AND I SHOULD
BE AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS IN A
FUN, RIGOROUS, PEER-REVIEWED
KIND OF WAY.
IF WE ALL AGREE ON THE BASIC
STORY, WHICH IS A POLITICAL
STORY, THEN WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY
DOING SCHOLARSHIP IN A VERY GOOD
WAY.

Steve says LET ME PUT YOU ON
THE SPOT, THABIT.
YOU'RE THE HEAD OF THE
DEPARTMENT.
DO YOU SEE A SITUATION WHERE
ALMOST EVERYBODY TAKES A KIND OF
LEFT-WING APPROACH TO HISTORY
AND TRYING TO TEACH IT AS
OPPOSED TO A MORE CONSERVATIVE
APPROACH?

Thabit says I
WOULDN'T SAY IN OUR DEPARTMENT
THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM.
PERHAPS IT IS, YOU KNOW, IN THE
BROADER SCHEME OF THINGS.
NO, I THINK IN OUR DEPARTMENT WE
HAVE A VERY HEALTHY MIX OF
VARIOUS OPINIONS, AND THERE IS A
HEALTHY DIALOGUE AMONG FACULTY
MEMBERS AS TO WHAT'S IMPORTANT
AND WHAT'S NOT IMPORTANT.
BUT I DO THINK THAT, IN GENERAL,
I WISH THERE WOULD BE A BIT MORE
OF A WEIGHT GIVEN TO THE QUALITY
OF TEACHING WHEN CONSIDERING
HIRING, WHEN CONSIDERING TENURE
AND PROMOTION, RATHER THAN IT
BEING SKEWED SO MUCH IN FAVOUR
OF ONLY RESEARCH, WHICH IS
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

Steve says THAT'S INTERESTING.
BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE ASSUMED, AS
A CONSUMER OF EDUCATION, THAT
THE ABILITY TO TEACH ACTUALLY
WOULD COUNT FOR A CONSIDERABLE
AMOUNT WHEN YOU'RE EVALUATING
THESE THINGS, AND YOU'RE SAYING
IT DOESN'T?

Thabit says WELL, IT DOES, BUT NOT TO THE
EXTENT THAT I THINK IT SHOULD.
I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE
MORE OF A FOCUS ON THAT.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON
THAT, IAN?
IT SEEMS OBVIOUS ON THE FACE OF
IT.
BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET KIDS
TURNED ONTO HISTORY, YOU NEED A
PERFORMER, JAZZ 'EM UP, GET IT
GOING.
DO WE HAVE ENOUGH OF THAT IN
FACULTY THESE DAYS?

Ian says THE OVER ALL
CONCERNED THAT PEOPLE AREN'T
HIRING ON THAT BASIS IS TRUE.
IT'S HARD.
WHAT MAKES A GOOD TEACHER?
HOW CAN WE OBJECTIVELY EVALUATE
A TEACHER?
TAKING ON THE HARD COURSES TO
TEACH VERSUS THE EASY COURSES TO
TEACH.
IT'S ALL NICE AND... IT'S GOOD
AND IMPORTANT TO EXPLAIN WHY WE
NEED BETTER TEACHING QUALITY IN
UNIVERSITIES.
THE QUESTION OF HOW TO ASSESS
THAT AND HOW TO UNPACK THAT,
IT'S A BOX.
YOU COULD DEVOTE AN ENTIRE SHOW
TO THE IDEA OF WHAT MAKES A GOOD
TEACHER.
PARTLY DUE TO THAT, WE'VE GONE
TOWARDS ASSESSING RESEARCH.
YOU CAN GET PEOPLE FROM OTHER
UNIVERSITIES TO ASSESS RESEARCH.
YOU CAN READ BOOK REVIEWS.
YOU CAN DRAW ON THIS WHOLE
BROADER LITERATURE THAN THE
SUBJECTIVE OF STUDENTS IN CLASS.

Steve says THE MORE GUYS LIKE
YOU COME ON TV AND EXPLAIN HOW
YOU DO WHAT YOU DO AND BECOME,
IN SOME RESPECTS, PERSONALITIES.
YOU THROUGH YOUR BOOKS, AND YOU
WERE ON FOR YOUR BOOK ON THE
HISTORY OF IRAQ WE HAD YOU ON
ONCE UPON A TIME, DOESN'T THAT
RAISE THE PROFILE OF THE WHOLE
DEPARTMENT AND MAKE YOU STARS IN
A WAY AND STUDENTS WILL WANT
TO... THEY WANT TO LEARN FROM STARS.
NO?

Christopher says I THOUGHT MY LAST BOOK DID
THAT PERFECTLY FINE.
IT DID NOT MAKE ME A STAR AMONG
MY STUDENTS.
THEY LIKED THAT I DID IT.
THEY DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT IT
OUTSIDE OF ME TELLING THEM ABOUT
IT.
TO MAKE A PLUG FOR MY
UNIVERSITY, I THINK SOME
UNIVERSITIES DO EMPHASIZE
TEACHING.
TRENT UNIVERSITY REALLY DOES.
I DON'T THINK I WAS A VERY GOOD
TEACHER WHEN I STARTED AT TRENT.
BUT THERE'S A WAY TRENT GETS
INTO YOU AND MAKES YOU A BETTER
TEACHER.
WE CAN ASSESS PROMOTION ON THE
WAY OF TEACHING.
YOU CAN GO UP FOR RESEARCH AND
ALSO TEACHING.

Steve says HOW DID YOU GET
HIRED IF YOU'RE NOT A VERY GOOD
TEACHER?

Christopher says I DIDN'T SAY THAT VERY WELL.
I'M A BETTER TEACHER NOW.
PERHAPS I'M STILL NOT A GOOD
TEACHER.

Steve says NO.

Thabit says THIS
CRISIS THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING NOW
HAS ACTUALLY PUSHED MANY
UNIVERSITIES, INCLUDING YORK, TO
REALLY BEGIN TO TAKE A VERY
SERIOUS AND STRONG LOOK AT THE
ISSUE OF TEACHING.
SO THERE'S ALL KINDS OF PROGRAMS
ABOUT PROMOTION, PROMOTING
TEACHING, ASSISTING PROFESSORS
IN VARIOUS NEW TEACHING METHODS,
ET CETERA.
I THINK THIS COULD BE ONE OF THE
GOOD THINGS THAT WOULD COME OUT
OF IT.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH YOU ON THIS, THABIT.
THE CHALLENGE THAT
MULTICULTURALISM POSES WHEN
YOU'RE TRYING TO TEACH THE
HISTORY OF A COUNTRY LIKE
CANADA.
FIRE AWAY.
WHAT IS IT?

The caption changes to "The past through a multicultural lens."

Thabit says I'M NOT SURE.
THAT IS... THAT IS A BIG
CHALLENGE.
AND AT YORK OF ALL PLACES, AND
I'VE NEVER SEEN A MORE
MULTICULTURAL STUDENT BODY THAN
AT YORK, IT CREATES VERY
INTERESTING DEMANDS ON US.
FOR EXAMPLE, DEMANDS ON THE
STUDY OF THE VARIOUS REGIONS
THAT PEOPLE COME FROM, THAT THE
STUDENTS COME FROM.
FOR EXAMPLE, AT YORK, THERE'S A
VERY LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THE
STUDENT BODY THAT COMES FROM
SOUTH ASIA AND THERE'S A LOT OF
DEMAND NOW THAT I SEE FROM
STUDENTS TO OFFER MORE COURSES
ON THE HISTORY OF INDIA AND THE
CONFLICT WITH PAKISTAN AND ALL
OF THIS AND HOW IT WOULD REFLECT
ON THEIR IMMIGRANT EXPERIENCE IN
CANADA.
SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO ACTUALLY
PROVIDE DIVERSE SENSE OF
SUBJECTS, WITHOUT LOSING THE
FOCUS.
AND THE FOCUS AT YORK HAS BEEN A
REALLY STRONG PROGRAM IN
CANADIAN HISTORY, AND THIS IS
WHERE IAN DID HIS Ph.D. FROM,
SO HE'S ONE OF OURS.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says YOU'RE GOING TO BRAG
ABOUT HIM ON TELEVISION.
THE FACT HE'S NOT TEACHING AT
YORK...

Thabit says ALSO A BIT OF A WARNING THAT
YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says HOW ABOUT YOU ON
THAT, IAN?
THE CHALLENGES POSED BY
MULTICULTURALISM AS YOU TRY TO
ADVANCE CANADIAN STUDIES?

Ian says YEAH.
I MEAN, PART OF THE PROBLEM...
THINK OF THE UNIVERSITY OF
WATERLOO.
WE'RE VERY MULTICULTURAL.
DOES OUR HISTORY DEPARTMENT
REFLECT THAT DIVERSITY AND
MULTICULTURALISM?
CERTAINLY NOT.
WHAT WE CAN DELIVER AS COURSES
DOESN'T EITHER.
WE'RE LEFT IN A SIMILAR DILEMMA:
DO WE TRY TO DIVERSIFY OUR
TEACHING ABILITIES WHILE ALSO
DOUBLING DOWN ON TRADITIONAL
RESEARCH STRENGTH.
WE'RE GETTING BETTER.
MAKING A CASE TO
ADMINISTRATIONS, MAKING A CASE
TO OUR COLLEAGUES THAT WE NEED
TO HAVE A HISTORY DEPARTMENT
THAT REFLECTS THE STUDENTS THAT
WE HAVE.
IF THEY'RE NOT COMING TO
CANADIAN HISTORY, THAT DOESN'T
MEAN WE SHOULD THROW OUR HANDS
UP AND SAY LET'S KEEP RUNNING
SEMINARS FOR FOUR STUDENTS.
IT MIGHT MEAN LET'S LOOK AT
STUDENTS WANT.
I TAUGHT A COURSE ON THE HISTORY
OF THE INTERNET.
PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED WHAT ARE
THE ORIGINS OF THE INTERNET?
WHAT CAN AN HISTORIAN ADD TO
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?
I SEE US REALLY TRYING TO PIVOT
TO MAKE OUR HISTORY DEPARTMENT
REFLECT THE INTERESTS OF OUR
STUDENTS AND WHAT WE CAN DO.

Steve says HOW ABOUT YOUR
CLASSROOM?
YOU'RE IN PETERBOROUGH?

Christopher says YES.

Steve says HOW MULTICULTURAL
ARE YOUR CLASSES IN PETERBOROUGH?

Christopher says I THINK WHAT IAN IS SAYING IS
IMPORTANT.
OFFER THESE OTHER COURSES.
I ALSO THINK YOU NEED TO HAVE A
CONFIDENCE THAT THE CANADIAN
HISTORY IS FOR ALL CANADIANS
REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY'RE
FROM.
THIS HAS TO BE... YOU KNOW, AN
ASSERTION THAT THIS REALLY
MATTERS.
THE STUFF THAT HAPPENED IN THE
PAST, IT SHAPES WHO WE ARE NOW.
IT SHAPES WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE
IS.
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND
PARLIAMENTARY INSTITUTIONS,
WHERE THEY CAME FROM.
NO MATTER WHERE YOU'RE FROM, IF
YOU'RE IN CANADA NOW, THIS
ACTUALLY MATTERS.
YOU HAVE TO DO BOTH OF THOSE
THINGS.

Steve says WE RELY ON YOU GUYS
TO GET THIS RIGHT.
IN THE LEAD UP TO THE LAST
FEDERAL ELECTION, IT BECAME
ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT EVEN THE
LEADER OF THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
HAD NO CLUE IN FACT WHAT 152
YEARS OF TRADITION WERE IF THE
WINNING PARTY, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
COMES SECOND, AND IS STILL
ALLOWED TO MEET THE HOUSE AND
TRY TO STAY ON AS PRIME
MINISTER.

Thabit says THAT'S
DISASTROUS, REALLY.
THAT'S VERY DANGEROUS.
I JUST WANT TO PLUG IN TO WHAT
CHRISTOPHER JUST SAID.
ONE OF OUR MOST POPULAR COURSES
IS A HALF COURSE OR A TERMED
COURSE ON THE HISTORY OF CANADA.
AND AMONG THE MOST INTERESTED IN
THIS ARE RECENT IMMIGRANTS.

Steve says WHY DO YOU THINK?

Thabit says WELL, THEY WANT TO LEARN
ABOUT THIS NEW COUNTRY THAT
THEY'VE COME INTO.
AND THEY'RE EXTREMELY
ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT BECOMING
CANADIAN AND REALLY ABSORBING
THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.
THE ISSUE OF MULTICULTURALISM
THEN IS QUITE COMPLEX.
ON THE ONE HAND, IT DEMANDS THAT
WE TRY TO DIVERSIFY OUR COURSES...
ON THE OTHER HAND, IT REALLY
INSISTS THAT WE SHOULD NOT LOSE
THE FOCUS.

Steve says YOU GUYS KNOW DAN
CARLIN?
DAN CARLIN... YOU'RE ABOUT TO BE
MR. PODCAST HERE.
DAN CARLIN DOES THIS THING
CALLED HARD CORE HISTORY,
PODCAST.
THESE ARE LONG, EH?
THESE ARE FOUR AND FIVE-HOUR
LONG PODCASTS.
HE STARTED PUTTING THEM OUT 14
YEARS AGO.
THIS YEAR HE STARTED
EXPERIMENTING WITH TEACHING
HISTORY THROUGH VIRTUAL REALITY.
HERE'S A CLIP OF WHAT IT WOULD
BE LIKE TO BE A SOLDIER 100
YEARS AGO DURING WORLD WAR I.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?

A clip plays on screen. In the clip, as images of poorly lit trenches flash by, a man speaks.

The man says MY DEAR LITTLE MARJORIE: I'VE
ONLY JUST RECEIVED YOUR LITTLE
LETTER WHICH MAMA SENT WITH HERS
ON NOVEMBER 19TH.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT YOU ASKED
ME TO BE HOME FOR CHRISTMAS?
I ONLY WISH I COULD.
BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE SOLDIERS
IN OUR BATTERY WHO ARE MORE
ENTITLED TO THE CHRISTMAS LEAVE
THAN I AM.
SO I'M AFRAID YOU'LL HAVE TO DO
WITHOUT DADDY THIS CHRISTMAS.
SANTA CLAUS WILL COME AS USUAL.
DADDY IS AS COMFORTABLE AS
POSSIBLE.
I EXPECT EVEN YOU WOULD GET
TIRED ENOUGH TO GO SOUNDLY
ASLEEP IN THIS DUGOUT.

Artillery blasts light up the night sky.

The man continues IT WOULD BE A CHANGE FROM YOUR
PINK BEDROOM.
WRITE AGAIN SOON, DEAR.
HEAPS OF LOVE AND KISSES FROM
YOUR EVER-LOVING DADDY.

(music plays)
A slate reads "War remains. Dan Carlin presents an immersive memory."

The clip ends.

Steve says THAT'S GOOD STUFF, I
THINK.
ARE YOU PREPARED FOR A FUTURE
WHERE VIRTUAL REALITY
INSTRUCTION IS PART OF THE WHOLE
MIX?

The caption changes to "Learning inside and outside of Academia."

Ian says WELL, RIGHT
NOW, NO.
I THINK WE NEED TO REALLY VIEW
OUR PROFESSION FROM A TECHNICAL
POINT OF VIEW TO GET THERE.
THAT SAID, WHEN I LOOK AT A
VIDEO LIKE THAT AND READING
ABOUT THE IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE
THAT PEOPLE HAVE, I IMAGINE...
WE HAD THIRD OR FOURTH YEAR
STUDENTS REALLY FIRED UP AND
PART OF THEIR ASSIGNMENT WAS
INSTEAD OF WRITING A 20-PAGE
TERM PAPER WAS TO CREATE
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
THE AMOUNT OF HISTORICAL
KNOWLEDGE YOU'D NEED TO CREATE A
VIDEO CAME OR AN IMMERSIVE
EXPERIENCE...

Steve says YOU'D BE FOR THAT.

Ian says I'D BE FOR IT.
INSTEAD OF THE FINAL THESIS,
MAKE A VIDEO GAME.

Steve says WHAT'S 1867 AND ALL THAT?

Christopher says IT'S
MY NEW PODCAST LAUNCHED IN
JANUARY.
NOT WITH VIRTUAL REALITY, BUT
IT'S WITH SOUND SOMEBODY
PRODUCES, THERE CAN BE SOUND
EFFECTS AND MUSIC.
IT'S AN ATTEMPT TO TELL CANADA'S
HISTORY, THE STUFF THAT I THINK
REALLY MATTERS, WHICH IS THE
POLITICAL HISTORY, RESPONSIBLE
GOVERNMENT THAT ANDREW SCHEER
GOT WRONG.
TELL THE STORY BUT TELL IT AS A
STORY.
TELL IT AS AN OUTREACH.
I'VE GOT TEN NEW YEAR.
I'M... TENURE.
I HOPE OTHER HISTORIANS LIKE IT
BUT IT'S FOR A BROADER AUDIENCE.

Steve says I WILL BE
DOWNLOADING IT AFTER WE LEAVE
HERE.
I'M GOING TO SUBSCRIBE.
DO ACADEMICS NEED TO EMBRACE
TECHNOLOGY IN ORDER TO JAZZ UP
THE NEXT GENERATION OF STUDENTS?

Thabit says THEY DO.
BUT THEY SHOULD DO IT
CAREFULLY, IN MY OPINION.

Steve says MEANING WHAT?

Thabit says I THINK ONE OF THE GOOD
THINGS ABOUT ALL THIS DISCUSSION
IS, AGAIN, IT SHAKES US A BIT
OUT OF OUR COMFORT ZONE.
IT REMINDS US IT'S IMPORTANT FOR
US TO GET OUT OF OUR IVORY
TOWERS, TO ENGAGE WITH THE
COMMUNITY, TO BE POPULAR HISTORY
AND TO REACH OUT TO HIGH
SCHOOLS, ET CETERA.
AND I THINK HISTORIANS, EVEN IN
THE PAST, DID EMBRACE... THEY
SHOWED FILMS, EVEN HISTORICAL
MOVIES.
WE DISCUSSED HOW THEY WERE
ACCURATE, HOW THEY WERE NOT
ACCURATE, ET CETERA.
AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF
EXPERIMENTS NOW WITH DIGITAL
HISTORY AND PODCASTING AND ALL
THAT.
SOME OF IT IS GOOD.
SOME OF IT ISN'T.
I THINK IT IS... I WOULDN'T BE
AGAINST, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS OF MY
DEPARTMENT ATTEMPTING THIS, BUT
I WOULD COUNSEL CAUTION AND I
WOULD COUNSEL ALSO THAT IT
SHOULD BE MADE VERY CLEAR THAT
THIS IS NOT THE COMPLETE PICTURE
OF HOW THE STUDY OF WORLD WAR I,
FOR EXAMPLE...

Steve says IT'S AN ENTRE.

Thabit says IT'S AN ENTRE.
YEAH, THERE'S MUCH MORE TO IT.

Steve says I'VE GOT 30 SECONDS
LEFT HERE, ENOUGH TO ASK YOU:
1867.
1812.
1939.
1776.
DOES ANYBODY WHO GRADUATES FROM
UNIVERSITY IN ONTARIO TODAY NEED
TO KNOW WHAT THOSE NUMBERS MEAN?

Christopher says THEY
ABSOLUTELY DO, BUT YOU FORGOT AN
IMPORTANT ONE, 1849 OR 1848,
WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT.

Steve says OKAY.

Christopher says I WOULD ADD TO IT.
YOU ABSOLUTELY NEED TO KNOW
THESE DATES.
IT'S A COLLECTIVE NATIONAL
EXPERIENCE THAT EVEN IF YOU
SHOWED UP... MY WIFE WROTE HER
CITIZENSHIP TEST LAST WEEK.
SHE NEEDS TO KNOW IT.

Steve says DO THEY KNOW IT?

Christopher says WELL SHE DOES.
BECAUSE SHE READ THE MANUAL.

Steve says I WOULD ADD 1837 TO
THE LIST.
THAT REVOLT BROKE OUT SIX BLOCKS
NORTH OF THIS STUDIO.

Christopher says THAT'S WHERE MY PODCAST
STARTS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."

Steve says I'LL DEFINITELY
LISTEN TO THIS AFTER THAT.
THABIT AJ ABDULLAH, CHAIR OF THE
HISTORY DEPARTMENT AT YORK
UNIVERSITY, IAN MULLIGAN,
TEACHES HISTORY AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO,
CHRISTOPHER DUMMITT TEACHES
HISTORY AT TRENT UNIVERSITY.
WE'RE GRATEFUL TO ALL OF YOU FOR
COMING IN TO TVO TONIGHT AND
HELPING US OUT WITH ALL OF THIS.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

The guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Undoing of History