Transcript: A Holistic View of Corporations | Sep 19, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, checkered shirt, and dark blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "A holistic view of corporations. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says CORPORATIONS ARE
CRITICAL PLAYERS IN OUR ECONOMY.
THEY CREATE THE WEALTH, JOBS,
GOODS, AND SERVICES WE ALL NEED.
AND INCREASINGLY THAT'S PROMPTED
PEOPLE TO SEE THEM AS NOT ONLY
COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISES, BUT AS
KEY SOCIAL ACTORS.
SARAH KAPLAN IS A DISTINGUISHED
PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO'S ROTMAN SCHOOL OF
MANAGEMENT AND FOUNDING DIRECTOR
OF THE SCHOOL'S INSTITUTE FOR
GENDER AND THE ECONOMY.
HER NEW BOOK LOOKS AT HOW
BUSINESSES ARE CONFRONTING SOME
OF THOSE NEW EXPECTATIONS.
IT'S CALLED "THE 360 DEGREE
CORPORATION: FROM STAKEHOLDER
TRADE-OFFS TO TRANSFORMATION."
AND SARAH KAPLAN JOINS US NOW FOR MORE.

Sarah is in her late forties, with long straight gray hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a gray sweater.
A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover is yellow, with a drawing of a round protractor.

Steve continues SO GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK HERE.

Sarah says SO GREAT TO BE HERE.

Steve says YOU START THE BOOK
WITH A SLOGAN THAT YOU LEARNED
WHEN YOU TAUGHT SCHOOL AT A
SCHOOL IN THE UNITED STATES AND
THE SLOGAN WAS "EARN, LEARN,
RETURN."
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, EXACTLY?

The caption changes to "Sarah Kaplan. Author, 'The 360 degree corporation.'"
Then, it changes again to "Loan, earn, return."

Sarah says IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE
STUDENTS USED TO DESCRIBE THEIR
CAREER TRAJECTORY.
THEY'D SAY WE'RE HERE GETTING
OUR MBAs, WE'RE HERE TO LEARN.
WE'RE GOING TO THEN GET JOBS,
EARN A LOT OF MONEY, THAT WAS
THEIR GOAL, AND LATER ONCE WE'VE
ESTABLISHED OURSELVES AND MADE
OUR MONEY, WE'LL RETURN TO
SOCIETY, USE THE MONEY
PHILANTHROPICALLY AND DO GOOD.
IN THE MBA PROGRAM WHEN WE TEACH
ETHICS AS A SEPARATE ISSUE, IT
COMPARTMENTALIZES THE DOING GOOD
FROM THE DOING BUSINESS.
SO WHAT MOTIVATED ME TO WRITE
THE BOOK AND TEACH THE COURSE
AND FOUND MY INSTITUTE WERE ALL
AROUND THIS QUESTION OF SEEING
HOW THOSE QUESTIONS ARE ACTUALLY
INTEGRATED AND NOT SEPARATE.

Steve says I DID FIND THAT
INTERESTING THAT SOMEHOW THEY
FELT THAT THEY COULDN'T BE
SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE UNTIL THEY
MADE THEIR FIRST MILLION.

Sarah says RIGHT.

Steve says AND YOU'RE
PRESUMABLY TRYING TO CHIP AWAY
AT THAT NOTION.

Sarah says YEAH, EXACTLY.
THEY BASICALLY SAID THERE'S NO
WAY TO MAKE MONEY IF WE ARE ALSO
PAYING ATTENTION TO THOSE OTHER
ISSUES.

Steve says DONALD TRUMP WENT TO
THE WHARTON SCHOOL.
DID HE LEARN, EARN, AND RETURN?

Sarah says I... DO NOT WISH TO COMMENT.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says MOVING RIGHT
ALONG...
IS THAT STILL THE THINKING ABOUT
THE MBA STUDENTS THAT YOU TEACH
IN TORONTO AT ROTMAN?

The caption changes to "Sarah Kaplan. University of Toronto. @sarah_kaplan."

Sarah says I HEAR IT MUCH LESS NOW, AND
I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE THERE'S A
NEW GENERATION OF STUDENTS THAT
ARE THINKING IN A MORE
INTEGRATED WAY AND I ALSO THINK
THAT SOCIETY IS STARTING TO
CHANGE.
AS YOU SAID IN THE INTRO, WE ARE
STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THAT
CORPORATIONS REALLY ARE SOCIAL
ACTORS AND HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY
IN NOT ONLY JUST GENERATING
PROFITS FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS BUT
ALSO IN HAVING AN IMPACT ON THE
WELFARE OF WORKERS, WORKERS IN
THE SUPPLY CHAIN, ON THE
ENVIRONMENT, ON GENDER EQUALITY.
AND SO WE HAVE TO EXPECT MORE OF
CORPORATIONS AND STUDENTS ARE
COMING IN TO GET THEIR BUSINESS
DEGREES EXPECTING THAT THEY'RE
GOING TO LEARN HOW TO DO THAT.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK
PROMPTED THAT CHANGE OF VIEW?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Sarah says I THINK THERE'S A FEW THINGS.
ONE, THE CRISES THAT WE'RE
FACING ARE SO DIRE AT THIS POINT.
IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT CLIMATE
CHANGE IS GOING TO CREATE
MASSIVE DISLOCATION GLOBALLY.
THAT'S USUALLY PROBLEMATIC.
THE FINANCIAL CRISIS OF 2008
ALSO CREATED A GENERATIONAL
SHIFT OF PEOPLE SEEING
CORPORATIONS AS HAVING CAUSED
THAT CRISIS THROUGH THEIR GREED,
THROUGH THEIR BOTTOM-LINE FOCUS.
AND SO I THINK WHERE WE ARE NOW
IS, NOT ONLY THE YOUNG PEOPLE
WHO ARE TAKING OUR COURSES IN
BUSINESS SCHOOLS BUT ALSO
INVESTORS ARE PUTTING MORE
PRESSURE AS WELL AND SOCIETY IS
PUTTING MORE PRESSURE ON
CORPORATIONS TO NOT JUST FOCUS
ON THE BOTTOM LINE.

Steve says LET'S DO A STORY
HERE OUT OF YOUR BOOK.
WAL-MART AND HOW IT ACTED IN THE
AFTERMATH OF HURRICANE KATRINA.
FILL US IN.

Sarah says SO HURRICANE KATRINA,
AUGUST 2005.
IT'S ANTICIPATED TO LAND IN THE
GULF.
WHAT DOES WAL-MART DO?
WHAT THEY DO BEST.
LOGISTICS.
THEY GET ALL THE PRODUCTS THAT
THEY NEED INTO THE STORES, THE
TARPS, THE FLASHLIGHTS, THE
WATER, THE STRAWBERRY POP-TARTS,
THE KINDS OF THINGS PEOPLE NEED
DURING A HURRICANE.
THE HURRICANE HITS AND THEY MOVE
AGAIN INTO ONE OF THEIR AREAS OF
EXCELLENCE, GETTING CASH OUT OF
THE STORE, PREVENTING LOOTING.
THEN THE SCALE OF THE HUMAN
DISASTER REALLY UNFOLDED AND
THEY QUICKLY SHIFTED INTO
GETTING SUPPLIES, FOOD, WATER,
THE KINDS OF THINGS INTO THE
VARIOUS COMMUNITIES THAT WERE
HARD HIT.
IN FACT, VERY OFTEN THEY WERE
THERE BEFORE FEMA, WHICH IS THE
U.S. FEDERAL EMERGENCY
MANAGEMENT AGENCY WAS THERE.
AND THEY GOT AN INCREDIBLE
AMOUNT OF POSITIVE PRESS FOR
THAT AND MANY PEOPLE SAID, LOOK,
IF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAD
OPERATED THE WAY WAL-MART
OPERATED, WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD
THE CRISIS THAT WE HAD IN
KATRINA.
WHY THIS STORY IS KIND OF
COMPLICATED IS BECAUSE SOME
PEOPLE THEN CRITICIZED WAL-MART
FOR GETTING A LOT OF CREDIT FOR
IT.
LOOK IT, IT'S THE LEAST THEY
COULD DO.
THEY GET SUBSIDIES TO OPERATE
INTO THESE AREAS.
OR SO GOT SO MUCH POSITIVE P.R.,
ANY COST THEY BORE WAS PAID OFF
WITH WHAT THEY GOT AT THE
COMPANY.
IT WAS A CRITICAL TURNING IN
WAL-MART WHERE THE SENIOR
LEADERSHIP BASICALLY SAID, WAIT
A MINUTE.
WE MOBILIZED OUR BEST
CAPABILITIES TO DO SOMETHING
THAT WAS GOOD FOR SOCIETY.
WHAT IF WE THOUGHT MORE
COMPREHENSIVELY IN OUR WHOLE
BUSINESS ABOUT IT?
THAT'S WHEN THEY ENDED UP
LAUNCHING THEIR ZERO WASTE
INITIATIVE, THEIR 100 percent RENEWABLE
ENERGY INITIATIVE, THEIR WOMEN'S
ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT INITIATIVE,
AND THEY HAVE BASICALLY
UNDERSTOOD THAT DOING GOOD
DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SEPARATE FROM
DOING BUSINESS.
THEY CAN ACTUALLY MOBILIZE THEIR
BUSINESS CAPABILITIES TO
ACTUALLY REDUCE THE HARM THAT
THEIR COMPANY CREATES OR CREATE
SOCIAL GOOD.

Steve says I DON'T MEAN THIS AS
A HORRIBLE PUN.
THIS WAS A WATERSHED MOMENT FOR
THEM IN SOME RESPECTS AS A CORPORATION.

Sarah says ABSOLUTELY.
THEY DESCRIBE IT THAT WAY.

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S TALK ABOUT... I MEAN, YOU
DO TALK ABOUT, IN THE SUBTITLE
OF THE BOOK, THE STAKEHOLDERS
WHO ARE ALL A PART OF THIS
EQUATION YOU'RE REFERRING TO.
LET'S JUST GET A BETTER
UNDERSTANDING OF WHO THEY ARE.
THE STAKEHOLDERS, FROM
STAKEHOLDER TO TRADEUPS TO
TRANSFORMATION, WHO ARE THEY?

The caption changes to "Trade-offs."

Sarah says STAKEHOLDERS, WE SHOULD
UNDERSTAND IS ANY PEOPLE,
ACTORS, ENTITIES THAT ARE BEING
AFFECTED BY THE OPERATIONS OF
THE COMPANY BUT MAY NOT HAVE ANY
OWNERSHIP CONTROL.
SO WE THINK OF THE SHAREHOLDERS
AS THE PEOPLE WHO OWN, WHO GET
THE BENEFITS IF THE STOCK PRICE
GOES UP, GET DIVIDENDS, AND YOU
HAVE THE STAKEHOLDERS, THE
COMMUNITIES IN WHICH THE
COMPANIES OPERATE, WORKERS IN
THE SUPPLY CHAIN, THE
ENVIRONMENT, ARE ALL
STAKEHOLDERS BECAUSE THEY ARE
AFFECTED BY THE OPERATIONS OF
THE COMPANY.
SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
STAKEHOLDER TRADE-OFFS, WHAT
WE'RE BASICALLY SAYING IS
TENSIONS THAT ARE CREATED
BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT
STAKEHOLDERS OR BETWEEN THE
STAKEHOLDERS AND THE
SHAREHOLDER.

Steve says AND THOSE
TRADE-OFFS... THOSE TENSIONS ARE
IN SOME RESPECTS INTENDED TO BE
THERE, AREN'T THEY?
THEY DON'T ALL HAVE THE SAME END
GOAL IN MIND.

Sarah says BY DEFINITION, THERE ARE
GOING TO BE CONFLICTS.
ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THAT
COMPANIES OFTEN DON'T UNDERSTAND
THAT THEY ARE CREATING THOSE
TRADE-OFFS WHEN THEY MAKE
BUSINESS DECISIONS.
SO THERE'S PLENTY... YOU KNOW,
WE WANT SAME-DAY DELIVERY FOR
OUR PRODUCTS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S
REALLY GREAT.
IT BENEFITS US AS CONSUMERS.
IT BENEFITS THE COMPANY BECAUSE
THEY GET MORE SALES.
BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE SO GOOD FOR
THE WORKERS WHO ARE DOING THE
DELIVERIES.
WE KNOW THAT SOME OF THEIR WORK
CONDITIONS ARE VERY POOR.
IT'S BAD FOR POLLUTION.
IT'S BAD FOR CONGESTION IN THE CITY.
AND SO THOSE ARE TRADE-OFFS.
IF WE WANT SAME-DAY DELIVERY,
WE'RE ACCEPTING SOME OF THOSE
OTHER ASPECTS, AND YET NOT SO
OFTEN DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK
ABOUT ANALYZING AND UNDERSTAND
THAT THOSE ARE THE TRADE-OFFS
THAT ARE EMBEDDED IN A DECISION.

Steve says YOU WANT TO DO A
REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE ON THAT KIND OF ISSUE?

Sarah says YEAH.

Steve says GO AHEAD.

Sarah says ON A KIND OF TRADE-OFF?

Steve says YEAH.

Sarah says WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, WELL, THE
SAME-DAY DELIVERY IS ONE I THINK
ABOUT ALL THE TIME BECAUSE I
LOVE IT, BUT I ALSO FEEL IT'S
USUALLY PROBLEMATIC, SO IT FEELS
LIKE AN ETHICAL ISSUE TO ME.
I CAN'T NOT GET SAME-DAY
DELIVERY... THEY DON'T EVEN
OFFER A SLOW, MORE EFFICIENT,
LESS POLLUTING OPTION, AND
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT COMPANIES
COULD THINK ABOUT.
BUT THINK ABOUT ALSO, LIKE, A
HIGH-PERFORMANCE RUNNING SHOE.
YOU GO RUNNING.
YOU DON'T WANT YOUR SHOE TO FALL
APART.
YOU WANT IT TO SERVE YOU WELL.
BUT MAYBE GETTING THAT
HIGH-PERFORMANCE RUNNING SHOE,
YOU ALSO NEED TO HAVE... IT HAS
TO HAVE GLUES IN IT THAT HOLD.
MAYBE THOSE GLUES ARE TOXIC.
IF THE GLUES ARE TOXIC, AND
MIGHT BE BAD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
AND FOR THE WORKERS THAT MAKE
THE SHOES.
THOSE ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF
TRADE-OFFS THAT CAN HAPPEN.

Steve says WHAT'S THE RIGHT ANSWER?

Sarah says THAT'S WHAT I TALK ABOUT IN
MY BOOK.
THERE'S NOT A RIGHT ANSWER.
I ACTUALLY SAY IN THE BOOK, THIS
IS NOT A SIMPLE STORY AND YOU'RE
NOT SUPPOSED TO WRITE BUSINESS
BOOKS THAT DON'T HAVE SIMPLE
STORIES.
I TRY TO SIMPLIFY IT INTO
QUESTIONS AND FRAMEWORKS THAT
PEOPLE CAN THINK ABOUT.
BUT THE FIRST RIGHT ANSWER IS TO
ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THE
TRADE-OFFS ARE.
SO IF YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT
IT, ANALYSED IT, YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT IMPACT YOU'RE HAVING.

Steve says LET ME JUST JUMP IN.
DO YOU THINK COMPANIES
UNDERSTAND THE TRADE-OFFS AS
THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY DO?

Sarah says I DON'T THINK IT'S PART OF
THE CONVERSATION VERY OFTEN.

Steve says THEY DON'T THINK
ABOUT IT.

Sarah says I THINK THEY THINK OF
CORPORATE ACTION AS SOMETHING
THEY DO ON THE SIDE OR SPRINKLE
ON TOP OF THEIR ACTIVITIES.
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND EVERY
DECISION THEY MAKE HAS EMBEDDED
IN IT THOSE TRADE-OFFS.

Steve says IT NEEDS TO BE
INTEGRAL TO WHAT THEY DO.

Sarah says EVERY CONVERSATION SHOULD
HAVE THAT IN IT IN MY VIEW AND
WHAT I'M RECOMMENDING TO
COMPANIES.
THE MOMENT YOU HAVE THE
CONVERSATION, YOU CAN START
THINKING ABOUT SOLUTIONS.
SO THEN I TALK ABOUT MOST
COMPANIES AGAIN WHEN THEY THEN
START THINKING ABOUT SOLUTIONS
THINK THEY NEED TO MAKE THE
BUSINESS CASE FOR IT.
THEY NEED TO PROVE THAT IT'S
GOOD FOR THE BOTTOM LINE.
WHAT I SAY IS ACTUALLY THAT'S
GOING TO LEAD TO VERY
INCREMENTAL ACTION.
ANOTHER MISTAKE THAT COMPANIES
MAKE, AS I SAID, TREATING IT AS
AN ADD ON AS OPPOSED TO CENTRAL
TO THE BUSINESS.
IF YOU TREAT IT AS CENTRAL CAN
REALLY LEAD TO TRANSFORMATIONAL
IDEAS IF YOU ACTUALLY PUT IT ON
THE TABLE AND LOOK AT IT.
THEN I THINK THE OTHER MISTAKE
THAT I TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
THAT I HOPE WILL HELP MANAGERS
THINK DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THIS IS
THAT THEY... WHEN THEY DON'T SEE
A SOLUTION, THEY JUST STOP.
AND WHAT I'M SAYING IS DON'T
JUST STOP.
ACTUALLY THIS IS THE PERFECT
MOMENT.
THOSE IMPASSES ARE PERFECT
MOMENTS FOR EXPERIMENTATION, FOR
THRIVING WITHIN THE TENSIONS AND
THE CONTRADICTIONS BECAUSE THOSE
ARE WHAT'S GOING TO CREATE THE
SOLUTION.
EVEN THOUGH IT'S COMPLICATED, I
TRY TO GIVE PEOPLE SOME
HAND-HOLDS TO GO THROUGH.

Steve says I KNOW WHEN YOU GAVE
THE EXAMPLE A FEW MOMENTS AGO
ABOUT HOW YOU LOVE WHATEVER THE
PRODUCT IS AND YOU WANT IT RIGHT
NOW AND GET IT RIGHT NOW BUT YOU
REALIZE THAT MIGHT CAUSE MORE
POLLUTION.
UBER EATS JUMPED INTO MY MIND.
THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE LOTS OF
CARS ON THE ROAD DELIVERING LOTS
OF MEALS TO LOTS OF PEOPLE IN A
PRESUMABLY POWERED WAY.
THEY'RE GOING TO BE INCREASING
THE POLLUTION ON OUR ROADS TO
SOME EXTENT.
IF A COMPANY... NOW, I DON'T
KNOW HOW WELL YOU KNOW THE UBER
SITUATION.
DO YOU THINK THAT THAT CONUNDRUM
IS SOMETHING THEY THINK ABOUT
WHEN THEY DECIDED WE'RE NOT JUST
GOING TO TAKE PEOPLE AROUND BUT
WE'RE GOING TO TAKE FOOD ALL
OVER THE PLACE AS WELL?

Sarah says I DON'T KNOW THE INSIDE OF
UBER AS WELL... I TALK IN MUCH
MORE DETAIL IN THE BOOK ABOUT
WAL-MART AND NIKE IN ACTUALLY
PRETTY GREAT DEPTH.
BUT I THINK SOMETIMES THOSE
CONVERSATIONS AREN'T BEING HAD
BECAUSE THEY'RE SO EXCITED ABOUT
THIS IDEA THAT THEY CAN DELIVER
PRODUCT RIGHT TO THE DOOR AND
THERE'S A WHOLE BEVY OF PEOPLE
WHO SEEM TO BE WILLING TO DO
THAT WORK, AND SO I'M NOT SURE
THAT THAT CONVERSATION IS ALWAYS
THERE.
BUT WE DO KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE,
AMAZON IS EXPERIMENTING WITH
DRONES.
RIGHT?
SO IF A DRONE WOULD BE MORE
EFFICIENT IN DELIVERING IT THAN
CAR-POWERED DELIVERY OF
PRODUCTS, MAYBE THAT'S A
CREATIVE AND INNOVATIVE
SOLUTION. NOW, THERE'S PROBABLY
EX-EXTERNALITIES CREATED...

Steve says IF YOU'RE IN THE
MILITARY AND HAVE ALL THOSE
DRONES FLYING AROUND.

Sarah says I'M ADVOCATING HAVE THOSE ON
THE TABLE AS PART OF THE
DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF ON THE
SIDE AND NOT LOOKED AT.

Steve says I WANT TO KNOW WHO
YOU WROTE THIS BOOK FOR.

The caption changes to "Changing minds?"

Sarah says MM-HMM.
SO I WROTE THIS BOOK... IT CAME
OUT OF A COURSE THAT I TAUGHT,
THAT I TEACH, ON THE CORPORATION
SOCIETY.
IN SOME WAYS IT'S VERY MOTIVATED
BY MY STUDENTS WHO ARE THE
FUTURE LEADERS IN BUSINESS.
IT'S ALSO FOR THE CEO WHO IS
FEELING PRESSURE FROM ALL SIDES.
EVEN INVESTORS ARE NOW,
SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS AND MAJOR
INVESTMENT HOUSES ARE SAYING YOU
NEED TO ALSO DO PURPOSE AS WELL
AS PROFIT.
SO IT'S FOR THE BUSINESS LEADERS
AT ALL LEVELS WHO ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO DO THIS.
I WANT TO GIVE THEM THE TOOLS TO
BE ABLE TO SAY, THERE ARE WAYS
TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AND
THERE ARE ACTIONS YOU CAN TAKE
THAT MEAN THAT THIS IS NOT JUST
SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY WHERE YOU
GO TO A CHARITY EVENT AND GIVE
YOURSELF AN AWARD BUT SOMETHING
THAT YOU ACTUALLY EMBED INTO
YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
AND SO THE BOOK IS REALLY MEANT
TO BE THAT PRACTICAL HOW.
PEOPLE WANT TO DO IT.
THEY HAVE THE RIGHT INTENTIONS.
THEY DON'T KNOW HOW.
THIS IS GEARED AT THE HOW.
BUT I ALSO END THE BOOK WITH AN
EPILOGUE WHICH IS FOR THE... US
INDIVIDUALS AS CITIZENS, NOT
NECESSARILY AS WORKERS, AS
CITIZENS IN SOCIETY BECAUSE
COMPANIES ARE CONSTANTLY
IMPLICITLY OR EXPLICITLY MAKING
THESE TRADE-OFFS AND THEY HAVE
FINANCIAL CALCULATIONS.
WE CAN ACTUALLY CHANGE THOSE
CALCULATIONS EITHER THROUGH OUR
CONSUMER BEHAVIOUR... SO, FOR
EXAMPLE, WAL-MART SAYS THAT WHEN
THEY BRAND A PRODUCT AS HAVING
BEEN PRODUCED BY A WOMAN-LED
COMPANY, IT HAS GREATER
SELL-THROUGH.
SO WE AS CONSUMERS ARE PUTTING
OUR DOLLARS IN A PLACE THAT'S
ACTUALLY DRIVING BUSINESS
TOWARDS WOMEN-LED BUSINESSES.
OR YOU LOOK AT SHELL OIL, WHEN
THEY DECIDED TO PULL OUT FROM
SOME OF THAT YOU ARE ARCTIC
DRILLING, THEY SAID THE COST
BENEFIT ANALYSIS WASN'T THERE
ANYMORE.
PART OF THE REASON THE COST
BENEFIT ANALYSIS WASN'T THERE
ANYMORE IS GREENPEACE WERE
DANGLING OFF OF BRIDGES IN
PORTLAND, OREGON, GOT THEM TO
THE PLACE THAT CREATED PUBLIC
RELATIONS COSTS AND CREATED
LOGISTICS COSTS.
SO WE AS INDIVIDUALS CAN ALSO
LEARN FROM THIS BOOK ABOUT HOW
CORPORATIONS WORK AND MAKE THEIR
DECISIONS SO THAT WE CAN WORK TO
SHAPE IT IN THE WAYS THAT WE
THINK MEET OUR VALUES.

Steve says I MUST CONFESS, WHEN
I WAS READING IT I THOUGHT TO
MYSELF, EVERY CORPORATE
EXECUTIVE WHO HAS GOT AN OUNCE
OF CORPORATE SOCIAL
RESPONSIBILITY IN HER GENES WILL
READ THIS BOOK AND THEY'RE NOT
THE ONES WHO NEED TO.
THE ONES WHO NEED TO READ IT
PROBABLY AREN'T GOING TO READ
IT, OR AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT I
THOUGHT.

Sarah says RIGHT.

Steve says IS IT MY GUESS... OR
I GUESS IT IS MY GUESS THAT YOU
WOULD LOVE TO SEE THIS BOOK IN
THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T
THINK MUCH ABOUT CORPORATE
RESPONSIBILITY BUT OUGHT TO.

Sarah says YES, ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK THAT WHERE THE RUBBER
MEETS THE ROAD IS OFTEN NOT AT
THE MOST SENIOR LEVELS, EVEN
THOUGH I THINK THE CEOs ARE
THE ONES WHO SET THE TONE AND
FLY AIR COVER.
IT'S MIDDLE MANAGEMENT.
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY
MAKING THESE DECISIONS MINUTE BY
MINUTE IN THEIR JOBS.
THEY DON'T NECESSARILY ALWAYS
HAVE THE TIME OR HAVE THE TOOLS
TO BE ABLE TO THINK ABOUT THESE
ISSUES.
AND I WANT THEM TO HAVE THE TIME
AND THE TOOLS AND HOPEFULLY THIS
WILL HELP.
BUT I HOPE THAT CEOs READ IT
TOO AND I HOPE THAT, YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST INTERESTED
IN THE IMPACT OF CORPORATIONS IN
SOCIETY WHO ARE MAYBE NOT IN
CORPORATE LEADERSHIP WILL ALSO
READ IT BECAUSE THEN THEY'LL
UNDERSTAND MORE HOW TO SHAPE THE
CORPORATE ACTION AS WELL.

Steve says WELL, YOU VERY
KINDLY KEPT IT TO FEWER THAN 200 PAGES.
SO EVEN THE BUSY CORPORATE
EXECUTIVE CAN READ THIS BOOK.

The caption changes to "Producer: Meredith Martin, @MeredithMartin."

Sarah says IT'S MEANT TO BE VERY
READABLE.
IT'S QUITE CHATTY AND BASED ON
STORY-TELLING BECAUSE I THINK
THAT YOU CAN'T LEARN... I CAN
GIVE YOU A FRAMEWORK, BUT YOU
CAN'T LEARN IT UNTIL YOU SEE THE
EXAMPLES.
SO THE IDEA IS TO ACTUALLY SHOW
HOW THIS COMPLEXITY PLAYS OUT.

Steve says RIGHT. THANK YOU.

Watch: A Holistic View of Corporations