Transcript: The Right Homes for Seniors | Sep 12, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and gray plaid tie.

A caption on screen reads "The right homes for seniors. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IN THE BLISTERING
HOUSING MARKETS OF SOUTHERN
ONTARIO... TORONTO, BUT MANY
OTHER COMMUNITIES AS WELL... ONE
GROUP THAT'S OFTEN OVERLOOKED IN
THE CONVERSATION IS SENIORS.
SOME ARE LIVING IN HOUSES THAT
ARE TOO BIG AND HARD TO
MAINTAIN.
OTHERS CAN'T FIND SUITABLE AND
AFFORDABLE STOCK THAT ALLOWS
THEM TO DOWNSIZE.
AND OTHERS STILL NEED NEW
SERVICES AND AMENITIES THAT
THEIR NEIGHBOURHOODS SIMPLY
DON'T HAVE.
HERE FOR MORE, DR. SAMIR SINHA.
HE IS DIRECTOR OF GERIATRICS AT
SINAI HEALTH SYSTEM AND THE
UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK.

Samir is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short black hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and black tie.

Steve continues ZAYNA KHAYAT,
DID I SAY THAT RIGHT?

Zayna says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says SHE'S
FUTURE STRATEGIST FOR HOMECARE THE
PROVIDER SE HEALTH AND ADJUNCT
PROFESSOR OF HEALTH SECTOR
STRATEGY AT THE U OF T'S ROTMAN
SCHOOL OF MANAGEMENT.

Zayna is in her late thirties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing a gray blazer over a white blouse, and a silver necklace.

Steve continues AND CHERYLL CASE IS HERE.
SHE IS THE FOUNDER AND PRINCIPAL
OF THE URBAN PLANNING FIRM CP PLANNING.

Cheryll is in her thirties, with curly black hair in a bun. She's wearing rounded glasses and a black sweater over a white shirt.

Steve continues AND IT'S GOOD TO HAVE EVERYBODY
AROUND OUR TABLE TONIGHT FOR
THIS DISCUSSION.
I WANT TO START WITH THIS.
I RECENT CMHC REPORT FOUND THAT
SENIORS ARE STAYING IN THEIR
FAMILY-SIZED HOMES FOR LONGER.
THEY ARE DOWNSIZING LATER AND
PERHAPS IN EARLY DAYS.
WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS, IN
YOUR VIEW, OF THAT?

The caption changes to "Zayna Khayat. S.E. Health."
Then, it changes again to "Too much house?"

Zayna says YES, SO I DON'T THINK ANYONE
WILL BE SURPRISED THAT OLDER
ADULTS ARE STAYING LONGER IN
THEIR FAMILY HOMES.
A HOME IS A FEELING, AND WE ALL
WANT TO BE HOME.
I WAS REFLECTING WHEN BIANCA
ANDREESCU ARRIVED IN
MISSISSAUGA.
SHE SAID I WANT TO GO TO MY BED
AND SLEEP IN MY BED.
BUT THE IMPLICATIONS BECOME
MULTI-FOLD, AND YOU MENTIONED A
FEW OF THEM IN YOUR OPENING.
SO FIRST IS SOMETIMES BECAUSE
THEY... HOME AND THE COMMUNITY
AROUND THAT HOME, THAT HOUSING
MIGHT NOT BE THE MOST
APPROPRIATE FOR THEIR NEEDS OR
FOR THEIR FINANCES, BUT WHAT THE
CMHC REPORT ALSO SHOWS IS THERE
ARE NOT OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE,
AND THAT'S A LOT OF WHERE NOW
THE POLICY DISCUSSIONS ARE GOING.

Steve says TO FIND SOME OPTIONS
THAT ARE AVAILABLE.

Zayna says IF THEIR COMMUNITY.

Steve says IN THEIR COMMUNITY.
CHERYLL, HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER
THAT, THE IMPLICATIONS OF PEOPLE
STAYING AT HOME FOR LONGER?

The caption changes to "Cheryll Case. C.P. Planning."

Cheryll says WELL, THE IMPLICATIONS OF
THAT IS IN THE GTA THERE ARE 5
MILLION EMPTY BEDROOMS, AND WHAT
THAT MEANS IS NOT THAT THE
SENIORS, AGAIN, HAVE TO MOVE
OUT, BUT THAT DOES POINT, AGAIN,
TO THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE
HOUSING SUPPLY ISN'T REFLECTING
THE NEEDS OF THE POPULATION.

Steve says 5 MILLION EMPTY BEDROOMS?

Cheryll says YEAH.

Steve says SO THIS IS A SITUATION
WHERE KIDS HAVE MOVED OUT,
MAYBE, YOU KNOW, SENIOR WOMAN,
WIDOW IS THE LAST PERSON THERE,
STAYING IN HER ORIGINAL HOME,
AND THERE'S TWO OR THREE EMPTY
BEDROOMS WHERE EVERYBODY ELSE
USED TO LIVE.
DO YOU THINK OF THAT
AS WASTED SPACE IN SOME RESPECTS?

Cheryll says I THINK IT'S... IT'S A
SYMPTOM OF A SYSTEM THAT IS NOT
RESPONDING TO CURRENT NEEDS.
SO IN THE CASE OF WHERE I'VE
HEARD OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY
DOWNSIZING, THEY DID THAT TWAUZ
THEY HAD OPTIONS IN THEIR LOCAL
NEIGHBOURHOOD WHERE THEY COULD
DO SO, RIGHT?
SO WHERE YOU'RE SEEING, YOU
KNOW, HOUSEHOLDS AND SENIORS NOT
DOWNSIZING, THEY DON'T HAVE
OPTIONS TO DOWNSIZE IN THEIR
LOCAL NEIGHBOURHOOD, MAINTAIN
THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR
COMMUNITY.
SO THAT'S WHY THEY STAY WHERE
THEY ARE, BECAUSE WHY LEAVE WHEN
YOU DON'T HAVE TO AND WHEN
LEAVING IS NOT REALLY AN OPTION.

Steve says IS THAT RIGHT, DOCTOR?
IS LEAVING JUST NOT AN OPTION
FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE?

The caption changes to "Samir Sinha. Sinai Health System."

Samir says I THINK IT GOES BACK TO THAT
HOME IS NOT JUST THE HOUSE THAT
YOU LIVE IN, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT
IT'S ALSO YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD.
IT'S YOUR COMMUNITY, AND WHEN
YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE OTHER
OPTIONS, FOR EXAMPLE IF THERE'S
NOT AN APARTMENT BUILDING, YOU
KNOW, IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBOURHOOD,
FOR EXAMPLE, IF THERE AREN'T
OTHER HOUSING OPTIONS, THEN WHY
WOULD I MOVE OUT OF MY HOUSE AND
GIVE UP MY NEIGHBOURHOOD AND MY
COMMUNITY?
THAT STORE THAT I LOVE TO GO TO,
MY LOCAL CHURCH, OTHER THINGS IN
MY COMMUNITY, MAYBE MY COMMUNITY
GROUP, BECAUSE IN ORDER TO GET
THE HOUSING I NEED, IT MEANS I
HAVE TO LEAVE AN ENTIRE
COMMUNITY BEHIND.
AND I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
THIS REPORT IS LIKE SURPRISE,
SURPRISE, RIGHT?
LIFE EXPECTANCY IN CANADA IN
1900 WAS 51 YEARS OF AGE.
IT'S NOW 82, AND IF YOU MAKE IT
TO 65, AND MOST OF US WILL,
YOU'LL HAVE 20 YEARS OF GOOD,
YOU KNOW, LIFE EXPECTANCY AHEAD
OF YOU.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING TO
CELEBRATE.
SO YES, OF COURSE, IF YOU'RE
HEALTHY AND LIVING LONGER, WHY
WOULD YOU NEED TO MOVE OUT OF
YOUR HOUSE?
BUT I THINK THIS IS WHERE WE'RE
BLAMING AN ISSUE ABOUT A LACK OF
HOUSING STOCK AND THEN PICKING
ON THIS GROUP SAYING HOW DARE
THEY LIVE SO LONG AND
SUCCESSFULLY AND CHOOSE TO LIVE
IN THEIR HOMES LONGER, HOW DARE THEY.

Steve says WELL, SOME OF THE
LANGUAGE DOES GET A BIT
PEJORATIVE AROUND THIS.
I NOTE RECENTLY THE "TORONTO
STAR" IN REPORTING ON THE CMHC
REPORT SAID SENIORS WERE, QUOTE
UNQUOTE, CLINGING TO THEIR HOMES
SPELLING DOOM FOR YOUNGER BUYERS
WHO ARE TRYING TO START FAMILIES
AND GET INTO THE HOUSING MARKET
IN VERY EXPENSIVE CITIES.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT LANGUAGE?

Zayna says WITH ALL RESPECT, THAT'S THE
MOST AGEIST HEADLINE I'VE SEEN.
WE HAVE TO KEEP CALLING THESE OUT.
WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AS A
SOCIETY OUR OWN SOCIAL
CONSTRUCTS AROUND WHAT HAPPENS
TO OLDER ADULTS, THEY ARE
DESIGNED FOR WHAT SAMIR TALKED
ABOUT BEFORE, RIGHT?
IT WAS YOU, YOU RETIRED AND
WITHIN FIVE YEARS YOU WERE DEAD.
THAT'S JUST NOT AT ALL THE CASE
TODAY, AND SO IT'S REALLY AN
AGEIST PERSPECTIVE, AND LET'S BE
CLEAR, THAT'S FOR THE OLDER
ADULTS WHO HAD THE LUXURY OF
BUYING INTO THE HOUSING MARKET
IN THE FIRST PLACE.
AND THAT REALLY DOESN'T DESCRIBE
KIND OF THE BROADER NEED FOR
AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN PEOPLE'S
COMMUNITIES.
TO HONOUR AND RESPECT THEIR
CHOICE OF WHERE THEY WANT TO
LIVE AND AGE.
WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE WHERE THEY
WANT TO LIVE AND AGE.
THEY DECIDE THAT FOR THEMSELVES,
AND WE OWE THAT TO THESE PEOPLE
WHO CREATED CANADA.

Steve says ALTHOUGH THE
IMPLICATIONS ARE THAT PEOPLE OF
YOUR GENERATION ARE GOING TO
HAVE A HARDER TIME FINDING
HOUSING BECAUSE OF THIS.
I'M NOT MAKING A VALUE JUDGMENT
ON IT, BUT THAT IS SIMPLY THE
CASE, RIGHT?

Cheryll says WELL, I LOVE MY NEIGHBOUR,
AND HE'S VERY OLD MAN, AND I
WOULD NEVER USE THAT LANGUAGE TO
A SENIOR.
I DON'T THINK... LIKE YOU WERE
SAYING, IT'S JUST DISRESPECTFUL,
AND I THINK WHEN WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HOUSING, YOU NEED TO
RESPECT A PERSON'S CHOICE TO
LIVE ON THE PROPERTY THAT...
ESPECIALLY IF THEY OWN IT.
IF IT'S A PROPERTY THAT
THEY'VE... LIKE, THEY'VE PUT
MONEY INTO, YOU HAVE TO RESPECT
THAT.
AND ALSO RESPECT THEIR AGENCY
AND THEIR ABILITY TO THINK
THROUGH WHAT IS THE BEST
DECISION FOR ME RIGHT NOW.
AND SO IT REALLY GOES BACK TO,
AGAIN, THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN
PLACE AND THE LACK OF OPTIONS TO
EVEN CONSIDER TO MOVE INTO A
DIFFERENT SITUATION.
AND I'LL JUST TO CONTINUE,
SPEAKING ABOUT THE
INTERGENERATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS,
I HAVE SPOKEN TO FRIENDS OF MINE
WHO, YOU KNOW, THEY GREW UP WITH
THEIR FAMILY AND WITH THEIR
PARENTS, AND THEY WANTED TO, YOU
KNOW, CONVERT THEIR HOUSE INTO
TWO SEPARATE LIVING UNITS, AND
THEY COULD NOT DO SO.

Steve says WHY NOT?

Cheryll says POLICY.
POLICY DOES NOT PERMIT FOR...

Steve says MUNICIPAL BYLAW STUFF?

The caption changes to "Cheryll Case, @CheryllCase."

Cheryll says YEAH, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVING A
SEPARATE ENTRANCE TO... PUTTING
IN A SEPARATE ENTRANCE TO A
HOUSE THAT OTHERWISE WOULD NOT
HAVE A SEPARATE ENTRANCE.
YOU'LL COME UP TO ISSUES ON
DOING THAT AND ZONING BYLAW
POLICIES.
AND SO FORCED... AGAIN, YOU
KNOW... YOU KNOW, IN THIS
CULTURE, WE VALUE OUR
INDEPENDENCE.

Steve says YES.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Cheryll says RIGHT?
LIKE, I LOVE MY PARENTS, I LOVE
MY NEIGHBOURS, BUT, LIKE, I
DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GO IN THE
KITCHEN AND SEE THEM IN THE
LIVING ROOM, RIGHT?
YOU WANT YOUR OWN SEPARATE
SPACE.
BUT CONVERTING YOUR DETACHED
HOUSE INTO TWO SEPARATE DWELLING
UNITS, YOU CAN MAINTAIN THAT
RELATIONSHIP OF BEING NEXT TO
YOUR FAMILY MEMBER BUT BEING
SEPARATE.
THAT'S WHY, FOR EXAMPLE...
HOUSES IS ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
INTERGENERATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS
WHERE YOU CAN HAVE SENIORS IN
THE BACKYARD PROPERTY, MAYBE
LIVING IN THE MAIN PROPERTY.
BUT AGAIN, ALLOWING FOR A...
PROVIDING AN OPPORTUNITY FOR
YOUNG AND OLD TO LIVE ON THE
SAME PROPERTY.

Steve says HMM.
THERE'S ALREADY IT SEEMS LOTS OF
REASONS FOR THIS... WHAT DID YOU
CALL IT?
INTERGENERATIONAL SITUATION TO
BE NASTY, YOU KNOW.
YOUNGER PEOPLE MAY THINK OLDER
PEOPLE ARE, FOR A WHOLE BUNCH OF
REASONS, PREVENTING THEIR
ABILITY TO GET FORWARD.
HOW DO WE KIND OF BEVEL THE
EDGES OF THAT TO MAKE SURE WE
LOWER THE TEMPERATURE ON THIS
INTERGENERATIONAL SITUATION?

The caption changes to "Samir Sinha, @DrSamirSinha."

Samir says YEAH, WELL I THINK... AGAIN.
I THINK TWO YEARS AGO WHEN THE
HOUSING MARKET WAS REALLY OUT OF
CONTROL, YOU KNOW, WE DECIDED TO
CHOOSE... WE STARTED TO FOCUS ON
FOREIGNERS AND SAY IT WAS THE
FOREIGN BUYERS WHO WERE BUYING
UP PROPERTY AND PUSHING UP THE
PRICES.
NOW WE'RE FINDING A DIFFERENT
GROUP TO BLAME.
SO NOW WE'RE GOING TO GO AFTER
SENIORS, FOR EXAMPLE.
THIS IS WHERE WE AGAIN, AS
CHERYLL WAS SAYING BEFORE, THESE
ARE SYSTEMIC ISSUES.
IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSING
STOCK, IF WE DON'T HAVE THE
RIGHT MIX OF HOUSING IN OUR
NEIGHBOURHOODS AND GIVE PEOPLE A
VARIETY OF OPTIONS, THEN WE'RE
ACTUALLY JUST PERPETUATING THE
PROBLEMS THAT WE KNEW WOULD
HAPPEN YEARS AGO.
AND I THINK THERE ARE
OPPORTUNITIES HERE.
ONE OF THE FASTEST-GROWING
HOUSEHOLDS IN CANADA ARE
MULTI-GENERATIONAL HOUSEHOLDS.
THAT'S ACTUALLY THE
FASTEST-GROWING TYPE OF
HOUSEHOLD THAT WE HAVE IN CANADA
TODAY, AND THAT'S WHERE MULTIPLE
GENERATIONS, THREE OR MORE
GENERATIONS, ARE CHOOSING TO
LIVE TOGETHER AND SHARE A HOUSE
AND MAY BE WHERE THERE ARE
OPPORTUNITIES TO DIVIDE IT OR
CREATE SEPARATE SPACES, THAT'S
ONE OPPORTUNITY.
SO THAT'S ONE WAY TO, YOU KNOW,
KIND OF... YOU KNOW, TO I GUESS
SMOOTH THE EDGES.
BUT ANOTHER INTERESTING...
EDGES.
BUT ANOTHER INTERESTING
INITIATIVE THAT STARTED IS A
PROGRAM CALLED HOME SHARING, AND
IT'S THE IDEA WHERE YOU CAN HAVE
A PERSON WHO WANTS TO STAY IN
THEIR NEIGHBOURHOOD AND HAVE
THREE EXTRA BEDROOMS WHO CAN
NOW... WHO'S ACTUALLY ABLE TO
SAY, HEY, YOUNG PERSON, YOU
KNOW, WHY DON'T YOU COME AND
LIVE WITH ME.
YOU'LL GET A BELOW MARKET RATE
RENT, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT I NEED
YOU TO HELP ME WITH MOWING THE
LAWN OR DOING THOSE OTHER
THINGS, AND THE PROGRAM WAS SO
SUCCESSFUL AS A PILOT, NOW THE
CITY OF TORONTO HAS MADE IT A
PERMANENT PROGRAM.
SO IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE NOW
THAT YOUNG MILLENNIAL, FOR
EXAMPLE, CAN LIVE DOWNTOWN, FOR
EXAMPLE.
THEY CAN ACTUALLY SAVE MONEY
TOWARDS THAT HOUSE PURCHASE THAT
THEY WANT TO MAKE, AND THEY GET
TO BE A PART OF A COMMUNITY THAT
THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE OTHERWISE
BEEN ABLE TO BE A PART OF
BECAUSE IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE TO
BUY INTO.
SO THESE ARE SOME OF THE WAYS
THAT WE'RE TRYING TO BE
CREATIVE, BUT WE NEED MORE
OPTIONS.

Steve says DO YOU THINK IT'S A
PROBLEM, ZAYNA, IF A WIDOWED
WOMAN OF, LET'S SAY 85 YEARS OF
AGE, LIVES IN A HOME WITH THREE
EMPTY BEDROOMS?
IS THAT A PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "Zayna Khayat, @ZaynaKhayat."

Zayna says SO IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR
STARTING POINT IS.
IF THIS WIDOWED WOMAN OF 85 IS
LIVING AT HOME AND DOESN'T HAVE
THE MEANS, BECAUSE REMAINDER,
PEOPLE ARE ON FIXED INCOME ONCE
THEY GET KIND OF PAST RETIREMENT
AGE AND CAN'T AFFORD THE HEAT
FOR THAT HOME, THE PERSON TO MOW
HER LAWN AND REMOVE THE SNOW AND
THE TAXES AND ALL THAT, BUT
DOESN'T HAVE OTHER OPTIONS, IT
IS A PROBLEM.
BUT IT'S NOT A PROBLEM OF THE
WOMAN.
IT'S A PROBLEM OF A SYSTEM.
IF THAT WOMAN NEEDS HELP, AND
SHE DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO A
LONG-TERM CARE FACILITY OR A
NURSING HOME, SHE PHYSICALLY
NEEDS A BIT OF HELP, BUT WE HAVE
NO OTHER WAY, AND SO SHE'S JUST
GOING TO GO SIT AT THE HOSPITAL,
THIS ALC, ALTERNATIVE LEVEL OF
CARE, THEN THAT'S A PROBLEM, AND
THAT'S WHY SOME OF THESE OTHER
CREATIVE SOLUTIONS WILL ALLOW
HER TO AGE IN THE PLACE OF HER
CHOICE BUT BE SUPPORTED TO LIVE
AS INDEPENDENTLY, AS SAFELY AS
POSSIBLE WITHIN HER ECONOMIC
MEANS.

Steve says I'M WONDERING, SHOULD
SOCIETY BE LOOKING AT THAT
PERSON AS SAYING: YOU'VE GOT WAY
TOO MUCH HOUSE FOR YOUR NEEDS
AND YOU'RE BEING A BIT OF A HOG
ABOUT IT.
IS THAT A...

Samir says BUT IT'S NOT JUST FOR OLDER
PEOPLE.
I WILL RAISE MY HAND AND SAY I
HAVE A SPARE BEDROOM, RIGHT?
NOW I'M NOT ADVERTISING THAT FOR
ANYBODY, BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO
SAY IS THAT... SO THAT WOMAN
THAT WE'RE TARGETING RIGHT NOW
WHO MIGHT HAVE THREE EMPTY
BEDROOMS, WELL I SHOULD EQUALLY
BE TO BLAME BECAUSE I'M
OVER-HOUSED, AND MANY PEOPLE ARE
OVER-HOUSED.
IT'S NOT JUST THE OLDER SEGMENT
THAT'S ACCOUNTING FOR THE 5
MILLION EMPTY BEDROOMS.

Steve says SO STOP PICKING ON SENIORS.

Samir says YEAH, SO STOP PICKING ON
SENIORS BECAUSE IT'S NOT FAIR.
I THINK AS ZAYNA WAS SAYING,
AGAIN, IT'S NOT A MATTER THAT
THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM, BUT IF
THAT PERSON ISN'T ABLE... IT'S
NOT GIVING THEM THE OPTIONS TO
AGE IN THE PLACE OF THEIR
CHOICE.
THAT'S A SOCIETAL PROBLEM.

Steve says I WANT TO READ A
LITTLE EXCERPT HERE.
MY PAL JOHN MICHAEL MCGRATH WHO
WRITES ON OUR WEBSITE, tvo.org,
HAD A COLUMN TITLED WAITING FOR
BABY BOOMERS TO DIE IS NOT
EFFECTIVE POLICY.
HERE'S AN EXCERPT FROM THAT...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Everything changes." The quote reads "IN RELATION TO TORONTO, OUR TIMID ATTEMPTS TO MAKE CHANGE THROUGH POLICY HAVE DONE LITTLE TO ADDRESS THE HOUSING PROBLEM. THE ONLY THING GOVERNMENTS OF
ALL STRIPES AND AT ALL LEVELS ARE DOING COMPREHENSIVELY IS NOT ENOUGH. IN LIGHT OF THE CMHC REPORT, I WOULD ADD THAT PART OF THE REASON THAT NOBODY'S BEEN DOING
ENOUGH IS WE HAVE BEEN SLOW TO RECOGNIZE THAT CERTAIN FEATURES OF THE SYSTEM, LIKE MORTALITY ITSELF, AREN'T DOING THE SAME WORK THEY USED TO."
Quoted from John Michael McGrath, tvo.org. August 9, 2019.

Steve says THE GUY'S CLEVER, RIGHT?
WRITES CLEVER STUFF.
OKAY, PEOPLE ARE LIVING LONGER,
BUT HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE
POLICY CHANGE... I DON'T KNOW,
CITY HALL.
WHAT SHOULD CITY HALLS ALL OVER
ONTARIO BE DOING TO MAKE SURE
THAT WE CAN KIND OF LINE UP WHAT
PEOPLE HAVE, WHAT PEOPLE NEED,
ET CETERA?

Zayna says I MEAN, I THINK THE... AS
I'VE UNDERSTOOD IT, THERE'S THIS
MACRO MOVEMENT OF WHAT WE CALL
AGE-FRIENDLY CITIES.
SAMIR'S BEEN INVOLVED IN TORONTO
IN PARTICULAR... I MEAN, THAT IS
THE POLICY THEY'RE GOING AFTER,
AND IT'S MULTI-PRONGED.
IT'S NOT JUST A HOUSING
SOLUTION.
IT'S ABOUT THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT
AND LIBRARIES AND PARKS AND THE
URBAN LANDSCAPE.
BUT IT'S DESIGNING TO BE AN
AGE-FRIENDLY CITY, AND I THINK
THERE'S A FELLOW IN BRAZIL WHO
HAS A WHOLE MOVEMENT CALLED 8 TO
80, WHICH MEANS YOU DESIGN A
CITY THAT CAN WORK FOR AN
8-YEAR-OLD OR AN 80-YEAR-OLD,
AND IF YOU DO THAT, WE'RE NOT
GOING TO EVEN HAVE TO HAVE THIS
PANEL TODAY.

Steve says BECAUSE THEY KIND OF
HAVE THE SAME NEEDS, IN SOME RESPECTS.

Zayna says YOU COVER THE
MULTI-GENERATIONAL, ET CETERA.
IT'S JUST PART OF THE FABRIC OF
SOCIETY AND NOT THIS EXCEPTIONAL
THING THAT THERE'S SUDDENLY A
LOT OF OLDER ADULTS STAYING
ALIVE FOR MUCH LONGER.
IT'S JUST KIND OF HOW SOCIETY IS.

Steve says IT'S PROBABLY NOT GOOD
SOCIAL POLICY TO JUST WAIT FOR
PEOPLE TO DIE OFF.

Samir says NO, IT HASN'T WORKED REALLY
WELL FOR US.
AGAIN, WE STARTED AT 51 YEARS OF
AGE BACK IN 1900, AND NOW WE'RE
82.
APPARENTLY OUR LIFE SPAN COULD
BE 120, SO REALLY BAD POLICY IF
WE FOCUS ON THAT.
BUT POLICIES THAT DO WORK,
AGAIN, IN THAT FRAMEWORK OF
AGE-FRIENDLY COMMUNITIES, SOME
OF THE WORK THAT THE CITY
PLANNERS ARE DOING IS THEY'RE
SAYING IF WE'RE BUILDING A NEW
NEIGHBOURHOOD, LET'S HAVE MIXED
TYPES OF ACCOMMODATION.
LET'S HAVE SOME DETACHED HOMES
WITH MULTIPLE BEDROOMS.
LET'S HAVE SINGLE-STOREY
APARTMENTS OR SMALLER APARTMENTS
THAT MEME MIGHT WANT TO DOWNSIZE
INTO AND STAY WITHIN THEIR
COMMUNITY.
SO IT'S LOOKING AT A MIX OF
OPTIONS AS OPPOSED TO A
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT JUST HAS
DETACHED HOUSES AND ONLY ONE
OPTION AVAILABLE AS WELL.
BUT IT'S ALSO MAKING SURE THAT
WE LOOK AT OTHER CREATIVE
PROGRAMS, LIKE AS YOU'RE SAYING,
YOU KNOW, DO WE HAVE PERMISSION
TO DIVIDE UP OUR HOUSES, FOR
EXAMPLE.
DO WE LOOK AT CO-HOUSING
POLICIES?
DO WE LOOK AT MORE HOME SHARING
PROGRAMS?
THESE ARE SOME OF THE CREATIVE
THINGS, BUT THEY'RE NOT MAIN
STREAM POLICIES RIGHT NOW, BUT
THESE ARE SOME OF THE WAYS THAT
WE NEED TO ADVANCE, BUT WE'RE
NOT DOING THAT AS A CONCERTED OR
COHESIVE EFFORT ACROSS THE
PROVINCE, OR EVEN IN THE CITY
ITSELF.

Steve says CHERYLL, THERE ARE
CRANES ALL OVER THE SKIES OF THE
CAPITAL CITY OF THIS PROVINCE.
AND A LOT OF THEM ARE CONDOS.
I WANT TO KNOW BASED ON YOUR
EXPERIENCE WHETHER OR NOT ENOUGH
OF THESE CONDOS ARE BEING
DESIGNED WITH SENIORS IN MIND?

The caption changes to "Better ways to live?"

Cheryll says INTERESTING.
SO ARE THEY BEING DESIGNED WITH
SENIORS IN MIND?
I THINK THEY WOULD ACTUALLY BE
THE BETTER PEOPLE TO ASK BECAUSE
THEY SPECIALIZE IN SENIORS.
WHAT I CAN TALK ABOUT INSTEAD IS
THE FACT THAT A LOT OF RENT IS
GOING UP IN DOWNTOWN AREA, AND
THEY'RE GOING UP IN OTHER VERY
CENTRALIZED AREAS.
THEY'RE NOT GOING OUT IN OTHER
PARTS OF THE CITY, AND THAT'S A
DISSERVICE TO THOSE PARTS OF THE
CITY THAT DO NEED ACTUALLY TO
HAVE THE POPULATION INCREASED.
A LOT OF THE CITY HAS ACTUALLY
LOST POPULATION WITHIN EVEN THE
LAST 15 YEARS.
YOU CAN GO BACK 30 YEARS AND YOU
SEE THE SAME TREND, WHERE
NEIGHBOURHOODS HAVE LOST
POPULATION.
WE'VE SEEN A LOSS, THEREFORE, IN
SERVICES.
SO THE PEOPLE IN THOSE
NEIGHBOURHOODS, THEY NEED
SERVICES, SO THE SENIORS, FOR
EXAMPLE, IN THE NEIGHBOURHOODS,
YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG,
YOU KNOW, AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE A
CARE FOR SERVICES, THEY COULD
DRIVE TO WORK AND DRIVE TO FUN
AND TO PLAY.
YOU KNOW, THOSE THINGS CHANGE
WHEN YOU'RE OLDER.
YOU NEED ACTUALLY TO BE MORE
ACCESSIBLE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT 80 YOU NEED TO HAVE A
DIVERSE MIX OF PEOPLE IN YOUR
COMMUNITIES THAT CAN ACTUALLY
REACH OUT TO YOU AND CONNECT
WITH YOU SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU
HAVE A SUPPORT WORKER WHO COMES
TO VISIT YOU AN HOUR A DAY, IT
WOULD BE BEST IF THAT PERSON
LIVED IN YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD OR
LIVED WITHIN CLOSE PROXIMITY,
AND IT GETS HARDER WHEN YOU
DON'T HAVE DENSITY IN THOSE
NEIGHBOURHOODS TO SUPPORT THOSE
PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE
NEIGHBOURHOODS.

Steve says HOW ABOUT IT, ZAYNA,
ARE THE CONDO DEVELOPERS IN THIS
CITY KEEPING SENIORS IN MIND AS
THEY BUILD?

Zayna says ON A MACRO, I DON'T KNOW THE
STATISTICS, BUT WHAT I DO KNOW
IS WE'VE BEEN REALLY ENCOURAGED
BY A LOT OF POLICY MOVES, AND
JUST, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPERS WHO
ARE ACTUALLY IN HERE FOR MISSION
THAT WHERE LAND IS EITHER
AVAILABLE AT LOW COST OR FREE OR
DEVELOPER FEES ARE WAIVED IF YOU
DO BUILD FOR KIND OF A SENIOR...
AN ADAPTABLE MODALITY, AND
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF THOSE
GOING UP ACROSS THE PROVINCE AND
ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
SO REALLY GOOD INCENTIVES,
MUNICIPAL, PROVINCIAL AND
FEDERAL, INCLUDING ON, YOU KNOW,
THE MORTGAGE RATES AND ALL THAT
STUFF.
SO THAT'S BEEN ENCOURAGING,
BECAUSE NOW YOU'RE BUILDING
PURPOSE-BUILT AFFORDABLE WITH
ALL THE THINGS WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT.
INSTEAD OF JUST KIND OF LETTING
THE MARKET TAKE OVER.

Steve says WHAT WOULD A
SENIORS-FOCUSED CONDO LOOK LIKE?

Zayna says SO THERE'S LOTS OF THINGS.
THERE'S DESIGN PRINCIPLES THAT
ARE UNIVERSAL FOR WHAT WOULD A
BUILDING LOOK LIKE AND ACHIEVE.
BUT THERE ARE JUST THINGS ABOUT
PHYSICAL, LIKE THE SPACE AND THE
SIZE OF THE HALLWAYS, AND AS
SAMIR TALKED ABOUT, THE MODULAR
ABILITY, THE ABILITY TO ADAPT
THE SPACE AS PEOPLE'S NEEDS
EVOLVE, WHETHER THEY ARE
PHYSICAL NEEDS OR LET'S SAY YOU
NEED OXYGEN OR THOSE KINDS OF
THINGS.
SO WE'RE SEEING REALLY NEAT
INNOVATION ON THE ABILITY TO
SWITCH AND MOVE THINGS AROUND AS
NEEDS AND THE MIX CHANGES.
AND THEN AGAIN, AS CHERYLL SAID,
JUST THE DESIGN OF SERVICES THAT
WRAP AROUND THE PHYSICAL
BUILDING, AND I THINK IN YOUR
REPORT, SAMIR, YOU GUYS TALK
ABOUT THESE NATURALLY OCCURRING
RETIREMENT COMMUNITIES, AND
THAT'S JUST BASICALLY SAYING
THERE HAPPENED TO BE A BUILDING
WITH A FAIR SHARE OF OLDER
ADULTS.
HOW MIGHT THE PEOPLE
SELF-ORGANIZE THEIR OWN SERVICES
AROUND TO ALLOW THEM TO LIVE AND
AGE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE IN
PLACE.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

Samir says WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE, "A," YOU
KNOW, IF YOU... YOU CAN DEVELOP
A NICE NORK, IF YOU WILL, BUT
THE BUILDING HAS TO BE ABLE TO
ALLOW PEOPLE TO LIVE THERE AS
LONG AS THEY WANT TO, AND SO IS
THE REGULAR CONDO COMMUNITY, ARE
THEY ACTUALLY DEVELOPING BEING
AS SUCCESSFUL AS THEY COULD IN
THEIR DESIGN?
NOT WHEN YOU LOOK AT TOWNHOUSES
OR MULTI-LEVEL HOMES, UNLESS YOU
HAVE AN ELEVATOR IN IT.
BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
SINGLE-STOREY SETUPS.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WIDE
DOORWAYS, FOR EXAMPLE.
SO I REMEMBER WHEN I MOVED INTO
MY PLACE, YOU KNOW, I WAS REALLY
KEEN TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DOOR
WIDTHS WERE AT LEAST 32 INCHES
WIDE BECAUSE THAT'S THE
INTERNATIONAL STANDARD FOR
WHEELCHAIRS AND WALKERS.
BECAUSE I PLAN TO LIVE IN MY
PLACE 'TIL I DIE, RIGHT?
SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE IT'S
FLAT.
I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE
ARE WIDE ACCESS POINTS SO I CAN
GET AROUND.
BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE
THAT THAT... YOU'RE NOT CRAWLING
INTO A BATHTUB HERE BUT YOU HAVE
EASY ACCESS INTO SHOWERS AND
THAT.
AND THOSE ARE UNIVERSAL DESIGN
PRINCIPLES THAT WORK WELL AT ANY
AGE IF YOU MIGHT BE LIMITED BY
FUNCTION AND SOME OF THOSE
ASPECTS.
BUT THEN WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAVE
BUILDINGS THAT ARE DESIGNED LIKE
THAT, THEN ANYBODY CAN LIVE AT
THEM AT ANY LEVEL OF
FUNCTIONALITY.
IF I BREAK MY LEG NOW, YOU KNOW,
MY APARTMENT IS NICE AND
ACCESSIBLE FOR ME.
IF I LATER ON HAVE DEMENTIA, MY
APARTMENT WILL STILL BE PRETTY
ACCESSIBLE TO ME.
SO THAT'S WHAT WE TALK ABOUT
GOOD UNIVERSAL DESIGN, BUT I
THINK A LOT OF CONDO DEVELOPERS,
A LOT OF DEVELOPERS RIGHT NOW,
THEY'RE NOT REALLY THINKING
ABOUT... THEY MIGHT STILL BE
THINKING MORE AESTHETICALLY
PLEASING AS OPPOSED TO... BUT
SMART DEVELOPERS WHO ARE REALLY
THINKING AHEAD ARE KNOWING THAT
PEOPLE ARE NOW LOOKING MORE
TOWARDS THIS AND SAYING I PLAN
TO LIVE 'TIL I'M 82 OR LONGER,
THEREFORE HOW DO I MAKE THIS
WORK.
AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROCESS,
AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, THAT'S
WHERE WE START LOOKING AT THESE
IDEAS OF HOW DO WE CREATE
COMMUNITIES THAT CAN BE
INCLUSIVE AND THAT CAN SUPPORT
PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, AS THEY WANT
TO AGE IN PLACE.

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Steve says I DON'T KNOW, BUT DO
CONDO DEVELOPERS DO THINGS AS
SIMPLE AS PUT RAILINGS IN
HALLWAYS FOR SENIORS WHERE YOU
WOULDN'T NORMALLY SEE THEM IN
OTHER BUILDINGS?

Zayna says NO.

Samir says NOT REALLY, AND I THINK
PARTLY BECAUSE THAT'S... THAT
WOULD JUST NOT BE AESTHETICALLY
PLEASING, AND IT ALSO COSTS
MORE.
BUT FOR SOME OF THE SENIORS
PURPOSE-BUILT HOUSING, THEY ARE
PUTTING THAT IN.
AGAIN, THERE ARE OTHER SIMPLE
DESIGN FEATURES THAT I THINK
SOME OF THE SMART CONDO
DEVELOPERS ARE SAYING... THEY
ARE MARKETING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE
THINKING OF LIVING THERE FOR A
LONG TIME, AND I THINK THOSE WHO
ACTUALLY MARKET IN THAT WAY AND
PLAN THAT WAY ARE GOING TO BE
MORE SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR WORK.

Steve says CHERYLL, WHAT YOU WERE
SAYING EARLIER ABOUT IT'S
AGAINST THE RULES TO TAKE A UNIT
AND CUT IT IN HALF AND HAVE A
SIDE ENTRANCE, THERE ARE SOME
MUNICIPAL BYLAWS THAT WOULD
PROHIBIT THAT, DO YOU THINK CITY
HALL IS YET ADEQUATELY SEIZED OF
THE NEW REALITY OF THE
SITUATION, WHICH IS SOME OF
THESE OLD BYLAWS, WHICH MAY BE
50 OR 75 YEARS OLD, HAVE GOT TO
BE THROWN OUT BECAUSE THEY JUST
DON'T MAKE SENSE TODAY?

Cheryll says YEAH, I'M ACTUALLY REALLY
EXCITED SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY
ABOUT THE CITY OF TORONTO AND
JOHN TORY HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT
ENCOURAGING MORE MISSING MIDDLE
DEVELOPMENT, SOME MISSING
MIDDLE, SOMETHING THAT I'VE
WRITTEN ABOUT IN A HOUSE
DIVIDED, A BOOK THAT I RECENTLY
PUBLISHED.
THERE'S SO MUCH THAT GOES BEHIND
IT, AND SO IT SOUNDS LIKE ANA
BAILO AND JOHN TORY.
I GUESS PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE CITY
OF TORONTO DON'T KNOW COUNCILLOR
ANA BAILO IN THIS WAY, BUT
COUNCILLOR ANA BAILO, SHE AND
JOHN TORY ARE ENCOURAGING
COUNCIL TO LOOK INTO MISSING
MIDDLE DEVELOPMENT, AND SO WHAT
MISSING MIDDLE IS, IT'S
ESSENTIALLY ALLOWING FOR A
DIVERSE MIX OF HOUSING TYPES,
AND ACTUALLY IT WAS JUST I THINK
THIS WEEK THAT THEY ANNOUNCED
A... IN A COMPETITION, ACTUALLY,
TO LOOK INTO MISSING MIDDLE.
SO THE CITY OF TORONTO IS VERY
EXCITED AND LOOKING IN THAT
DIRECTION.
AND I HAVE HEARD OTHER CITIES AS
WELL LOOKING INTO ENCOURAGING
OTHER HOUSING TYPES IN THE
NEIGHBOURHOODS.

Steve says I GATHER SOME PLACES
DUPLEXES AND TRIPLEXES ARE NOT
ALLOWED, WHICH YOU WOULD THINK
WE MIGHT NEED MORE OF THAT,
GIVEN THAT WE NEED TO INTENSIFY
DEVELOPMENT.

Cheryll says YEAH.

Steve says DO THEY GET THAT?

Cheryll says YEAH, THEY DO.

Steve says THEY ARE GETTING THAT?

Cheryll says YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
SO IN THE CITY OF TORONTO
THEY'VE BEEN FANTASTIC AND IT'S
HAPPENING... I THINK THE WAVE OF
UNDERSTANDING, AND THIS IS THE
PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE
ADDRESSED, AND IT'S A PROBLEM
THAT WE'VE SEEN COMING, AND IT'S
HERE.
IT'S REALLY, REALLY HERE RIGHT
NOW.
SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING IT
ACTUALLY BEING ADDRESSED.
SOMETIMES YOU KNOW HOW PEOPLE
WORK, YOU SEE SOMETHING COMING,
YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT
UNTIL IT'S IN YOUR FACE.

Steve says FOLLOW-UP.

Zayna says I THINK WE'RE NOT GETTING
INTO POLICY AND THERE WAS AN
ANNOUNCEMENT OF A CERTAIN
ELECTION HAPPENING VERY SOON.

Steve says REALLY?
I DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT THAT.

Zayna says I THINK IT'S WELL BEYOND
CITIES AND BUILDINGS AND CODE,
AND I ABSOLUTELY AGREE.
I THINK MACRO THIS IS JUST
EVERYTHING ELSE IN SOCIETY.
A BABY BOOMER I THINK WAS BORN
EVERY TEN SECONDS AND THEY ARE
ALL STARTING TO TURN 75 THIS
YEAR.
SO THE VOLUME AND THE SPEED AT
WHICH WE'RE CONFRONTING THIS
DOESN'T MATCH THE PACE AT WHICH
POLICIES THAT WERE DESIGNED FOR
50 YEARS AGO ARE ABLE TO
INNOVATE, BUT IT GETS THEM INTO
HEALTH CARE POLICY AND A LOT OF
OTHER THINGS.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, IN THE
U.S., IF FOR SOMEBODY TO AGE IN
PLACE AND LIVE IN THEIR HOME AS
LONG AS POSSIBLE, BEYOND
BUILDING CODES, YOU KNOW, NEEDS
CERTAIN THINGS IN THEIR HOUSE,
WHETHER THAT'S THE RAILING OR
THE ELEVATOR OR WHATEVER, THE
HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WILL PAY FOR
THAT, AND MEDICARE AND MEDICAID
IN THE U.S.
MAJOR POLICY INNOVATION, SO I
THINK IT OPENS UP A BROADER VIEW
OF WHAT IS HEALTH CARE, RIGHT?

Steve says MEDICARE WILL PAY FOR,
LIKE, A SEAT ELEVATOR TO GO UP...

Zayna says YOU CAN CLAIM FOR YOUR HOME
CARE THINGS THAT HELP YOU LIVE
AND AGE AT HOME AS LONG AS
POSSIBLE.
ALBERTA WAS JUST HERE IN MAY
TALKING ABOUT THEY'RE NOW GIVING
FAMILIES THEIR OWN BUDGETS TO
PAY FOR... IF GETTING YOUR
STAIRS CLEANED OF SNOW IS GOING
TO KEEP YOU HEALTHY AT HOME AND
SAFE, THAT COUNTS AS A HEALTH
CARE EXPENSE.
SO THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER
HEALTH CARE POLICY INNOVATIONS
THAT CAN ALLOW PEOPLE TO LIVE
AND AGE IN PLACE FOR AS LONG AS
THEY WANT.

Steve says SAMIR, YOU WERE GOING
TO ADD.

Samir says YEAH, NO, AND I THINK PART OF
THIS COMES BACK TO WE THINK
ABOUT THE CITY OF TORONTO, BUT
WE THINK ABOUT ALL THE
MUNICIPALITIES ACROSS ONTARIO
AND SOME OF THEM HAVE
CONFLICTING BYLAWS.
SOME OF THEM SAY YES WE WILL
ALLOW YOU TO SPLIT YOUR HOUSE.
OTHERS SAY WE DON'T, AND SO ON.
SO I DO KNOW THAT RIGHT NOW THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT IN ONTARIO
IS LOOKING AT PASSING THIS NEW
ACT, WHAT THEY'RE CALLING THE
GOLDEN GIRLS ACT, WHICH IS KIND
OF SAYING JUST HOW DO WE GET,
YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY INSTEAD OF
HAVING ALL THESE DIFFERENT
MUNICIPAL THINGS WHERE IN THIS
MUNICIPALITY YOU CAN, THIS
MUNICIPALITY YOU CAN'T, AND
ACTUALLY SAYING WHAT IS AN
EQUITABLE POLICY THAT WE CAN
HAVE THAT CAN ALLOW PEOPLE TO
HAVE ACCESS TO A DIFFERENT
HOUSING TYPE, BECAUSE THIS IS A
PROBLEM, WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO
ACTUALLY DO THESE THINGS IN
THEIR COMMUNITIES BUT THEN THEY
FIND OUT THAT, WELL, IF THE
COMMUNITY NEXT DOOR ALLOWS THIS
AND THAT ONE DOESN'T.
SO I THINK THIS IS THAT
OPPORTUNITY WHERE WE CAN START
THINKING ABOUT HOW DO WE BE MORE
CREATIVE, HOW DO WE ALLOW PEOPLE
SUPPORT TO RENOVATE THEIR
PLACES.
HOW DO WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO GET
THE HOME AND COMMUNITY SUPPORTS
THEY NEED TO AGE IN THE PLACE OF
THEIR CHOICE, AND HOW DO WE HAVE
THE MIX OF HOUSING OPTIONS
AVAILABLE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN AGE
IN THE COMMUNITY OF THEIR CHOICE
BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE
APPROPRIATE ACCOMMODATION AS WELL.

Steve says IT'S FUNNY YOU MENTION
THAT, BECAUSE EARLIER IN THIS
PROGRAM WE HAD ONE OF THE GOLDEN
GIRLS ON TALKING ABOUT THAT VERY
THING.
SHE'S ONE OF FOUR PEOPLE IN PORT
PARRY, FOUR WOMEN, NOT RELATED,
NOT... YOU KNOW, NOT A FAMILY.
DECIDED TO BUY A HOUSE TOGETHER,
AND OBVIOUSLY LOTS OF
COMPLICATIONS TO BE FIGURED OUT,
BUT THEY ARE FIGURING IT OUT AND
THEY'VE BEEN TOGETHER FOR THREE
YEARS RIGHT NOW, AND I WONDER IF
YOU THINK THAT'S... IS THAT A
ONE-OFF OR IS THAT THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE?

Samir says I THINK MORE AND MORE PEOPLE
ARE GETTING EXCITED ABOUT HOME
SHARING, CO-HOUSING, YOU KNOW,
CO-BUYING.
THERE'S ALL THESE DIFFERENT KIND
OF VERSIONS OF WAYS, AND I THINK
THE PROBLEM IS WHEN THESE FOUR
TRIED TO FIGURE IT OUT, I'M KIND
OF LIKE WHAT... YOU KNOW, WHY
ARE WE MAKING IT SO HARD FOR
THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE...
LIKE, NO ONE'S HOLDING A GUN TO
THEIR HEAD.

Steve says NO, THE TOWN INITIALLY
FOUGHT THEM.

Samir says WELL, THIS IS IT, RIGHT?
AND THIS IS RIDICULOUS.
THESE ARE FOUR PEOPLE WHO ARE
CAPABLE OF MAKING THEIR OWN
DECISIONS, AND WE'RE NOT
SAYING... WE'RE SAYING SORRY,
THERE'S A MUNICIPAL BYLAW THAT
SAYS THE FOUR OF YOU
RESPONSIBLE, TAX PAYING ADULTS
CAN'T ACTUALLY GET IN ON YOUR
HOME TOGETHER AND LIVE TOGETHER.
THAT'S RIDICULOUS, RIGHT?
AND I THINK THIS IS THE
CHALLENGE OF WHY I THINK PEOPLE
ARE STARTING TO SAY, WELL, YOU
KNOW, AT WHAT LEVEL DO WE
ACTUALLY SAY IS IT A FEDERAL
LEVEL, IS IT A PROVINCIAL LEVEL
WHERE WE JUST STOP THE MADNESS
AND ALLOW PEOPLE TO GET ON WITH
THIS.
BECAUSE OTHERWISE, THEN, WE GET
BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED WHERE
WE SAY WE BLAMED THE FOREIGNERS
LAST YEAR.
NOW WE'RE JUST GOING TO BLAME
THE SENIORS.
NEXT YEAR WE'RE GOING TO BE
BLAMING THE CHILDREN FOR THE
HOUSING CRISIS.
I DON'T KNOW HOW YET, BUT WE'LL
FIGURE IT OUT.

Zayna says I WILL SAY I THINK IT IS A
LITTLE BIT OF A SHINY OBJECT.
SO WE GET EXCITED ABOUT THESE.
THEY SEEM INTERESTING AND YOU
BRING THEM ON YOUR SHOW AND
INTERGENERATIONAL.
THEY ARE HAPPENING AND WE DO
WANT TO UNLOCK THE POLICY
BARRIERS, BUT THE GROUNDSWELL,
THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY ARE
OLDER ADULTS WHOSE INTENTION IS
TO STAY IN THEIR HOMES AND IN
THEIR COMMUNITIES, AND IT'S THIS
MIXED OPTIONS OF TOWN HOMES,
SINGLE UNIT, AFFORDABLE,
AFFORDABLE, AFFORDABLE.
TO ME, IF I COULD PUT WHERE WE
SHOULD SPEND MOST OF OUR ENERGY,
IT'S ON THAT KIND OF BULK AND
MAKING THOSE OPTIONS, BECAUSE
THAT'S GOING TO HAVE HONESTLY
THE BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK.

Steve says WE GOT JUST A FEW
MINUTES LEFT HERE, AND YOU DID
THIS REPORT ON LONG-TERM CARE
THAT WE WANT TO SPEND A LITTLE
BIT OF TIME ON HERE.
LONG-TERM CARE IN CANADA.
SHELDON, BRING THE GRAPHIC UP
AND I'LL READ IT OUT LOUD FOR
THOSE LISTENING ON PODCAST.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Long-term care in Canada."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
THERE ARE 430,000 ADULT
CANADIANS THAT ARE UNMET HOME
CARE NEEDS, 40,000 ARE ON WAIT
LISTS FOR NURSING HOMES, AND
THAT'S MOSTLY DUE TO LACK OF
AFFORDABLE CARE IN THEIR HOMES
AND COMMUNITIES.
63 percent OF FAMILIES SAY THEY WORRY
THAT THEY COULDN'T CARE FOR
OLDER FAMILY MEMBERS IF THEY
NEEDED LONG-TERM CARE.
AND 58 percent OF CANADIANS SAID THEY
EXPECTED PEOPLE WILL DELAY
RETIREMENT TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD
BETTER HEALTH CARE IN THEIR OWN HOMES.
HOW WELL... DOCTOR, YOU'VE BEEN
ON THIS FOR MORE THAN A DECADE.
HOW WELL IS ONTARIO DELIVERING
HOME CARE TO PEOPLE IN THE
PROVINCE RIGHT NOW?

Samir says I THINK EVEN JUST YESTERDAY
THERE WAS AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT
THE MINISTER CAME OUT AND SAID
WE'RE GOING TO INVEST EVEN MORE
MONEY THAN WE PLANNED TO IN HOME
CARE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HALLWAY
MEDICINE IS THE WORST IT'S BEEN
NOW, ACTUALLY, THAT WE'VE SEEN.
AND SO ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'RE
REALIZING THAT WHY ARE PEOPLE
STUCK IN HOSPITALS?
OFTEN IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T
HAVE ENOUGH OF THE HOME AND
COMMUNITY CARE OPTIONS THEY NEED.
AND AGAIN, THOSE NUMBERS SPEAK
TO THE NATIONAL NEED.
IT'S NOT JUST AN ONTARIO ISSUE.
IT'S EVERYWHERE.
BUT I THINK IF WE'RE ACUTELY
SEEING THAT IF WE DON'T HAVE THE
RIGHT MIX OF HOME AND COMMUNITY
CARE, AND THEN THE CHALLENGE
IS... AND THAT'S
GOVERNMENT-FUNDED CARE.
THEN PEOPLE HAVE TO GO TO THE
PRIVATE MARKET, AND THAT'S NOT
CHEAP, RIGHT?
THAT CAN EASILY...

Steve says UNBELIEVABLY EXPENSIVE.
IT'S NOT JUST NOT CHEAP.
IT'S UNBELIEVABLY EXPENSIVE.

Samir says THAT'S WHY PEOPLE SAY I
EXPECT TO DELAY THE RETIREMENT
TO BUY THE CARE BECAUSE I'M
AFRAID SEEING WHAT MOM AND DAD
NEED, HOW AM I GOING TO AFFORD
THAT FOR MYSELF?
AND THIS IS WHERE YOU SEE THOSE
STATISTICS.
THESE ARE REAL NUMBERS HERE
WHERE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THIS IS
A BARRIER.
SO WHAT WE, AGAIN, YOU KNOW,
WHAT OUR REPORT REALLY FOCUSED
ON IS WHEN WE THINK ABOUT
LONG-TERM CARE, SOME PEOPLE
THINK ABOUT NURSING HOMES, BUT
AS WE'RE SAYING, PEOPLE WANT TO
STAY IN THEIR HOMES FOR AS LONG
AS POSSIBLE.
BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE
ISOLATED AND STUCK THERE WITHOUT
THE CARE AND SUPPORT THEY NEED.
BUT IF WE PROVIDE MORE OF THE
CARE AND SUPPORT THEY NEED, AND
THE PEOPLE STAY IN THEIR HOMES
LONGER, IT ACTUALLY SAVES US ALL
MORE MONEY AS TAXPAYERS BECAUSE
A DAY OF HOME CARE ON AVERAGE IN
ONTARIO, ABOUT 50, 60 DOLLARS A
DAY.
A DAY IN A NURSING HOME COSTS
TAXPAYERS 177 dollars A DAY.
SO IT'S IN OUR INTERESTS TO
ACTUALLY, BACK TO THE BEGINNING,
HAVE THAT PERSON STAY IN THEIR
HOME, THREE BEDROOMS OR ONE, I
DON'T CARE, BECAUSE IT'S
ACTUALLY CHEAPER FOR ALL OF US.
BUT RIGHT NOW TOO MANY ONTARIANS
AND TOO MANY CANADIANS ARE GOING
WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, ENOUGH HOME CARE.

Steve says CHERYLL, THERE'S AN
ELECTION CAMPAIGN GOING ON.
I KNOW THAT BECAUSE ZAYNA TOLD
ME SO A FEW MINUTES AGO.
HOW DO YOU GET THIS ON THE RADAR SCREEN?

Cheryll says I THINK IT'S GOING BACK TO
WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING HERE,
WHICH IS THAT WE NEED TO HAVE
BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE
ANOTHER AND WITH THE LAND,
RIGHT?
SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
HOME SHARING PROGRAMS, IT'S
HAVING A BETTER RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE SENIOR AND THE YOUNG
PERSON WHO WOULD BE RENTING WITH
THEM AND PROVIDING ADDITIONAL
SUPPORT FOR THEM, SO HELPING
THEM IN THE HOUSE.
IT'S AN EXCHANGE, BENEFICIAL FOR
BOTH PARTIES.
THE YOUNG PEOPLE IS IN A MORE
AFFORDABLE NEIGHBOURHOOD.
THE OLDER PERSON HAS ACCESS TO
THE SERVICE AND THEY CAN STAY IN
THEIR HOUSE.
THEN ALSO A BETTER RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE LAND.
SO THE FACT THAT WE'RE HAVING A
HOUSING PROBLEM IS WE'RE NOT
USING THE LAND PROPERLY TO
ACTUALLY SERVICE OUR OWN NEEDS,
RIGHT?
AND THE REASON WE'RE NOT
SERVICING OUR OWN NEEDS IS
BECAUSE WE'RE FAILING TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THE CAPACITY FOR THE
LAND TO DO THAT, AND ALSO THE
FACT THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE
NEEDS THAT CAN BE SERVICED BY
THAT LAND.
SO IT'S... TO MAKE IT LESS, I
GUESS, BROAD PICTURE, IF YOU GO
BACK IN THE '70S, USING A CITY
OF TORONTO EXAMPLE, WOMEN
WEREN'T ALLOWED TO ACTUALLY RENT
TOGETHER.
THERE WAS... THEY ACTUALLY HAD A
DEFINITION FOR WHAT A FAMILY IS,
AND WOMEN WERE BEING ACTUALLY
FINED BY THE CITY AND SAYING YOU
CANNOT LIVE HERE BECAUSE YOU'RE
NOT A FAMILY.
THIS FAILED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT
WOMEN WERE PAID LESS, THEY HAD
TO LIVE TOGETHER TO AFFORD THE
PROPERTY, SO IT'S A LACK OF
ACKNOWLEDGING OF, YOU KNOW, THE
LIVED EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS
AND USING LAND TO SERVICE
INDIVIDUALS.
AND IN A HEALTHY WAY.
SO I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE
NEED TO GET AT IS HOW DO WE HAVE
A BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH
OTHER AND RESPECTING OUR NEEDS
AND ALSO THE LAND SO THE LAND
CAN BETTER RESPECT AND SERVICE
OUR NEEDS.

Steve says A NICE PLACE TO END IT.

Cheryll says YEAH.

The caption changes to "Producer: Cara Stern, @carastern."

Steve says THANKS TO THE THREE OF
YOU FOR COMING INTO TVO TONIGHT
AND HELPING US OUT WITH THIS
DISCUSSION.
APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

The guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Right Homes for Seniors