Transcript: #MeToo At Two | Oct 09, 2019

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a black blazer over a blue shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Hashtag MeToo at two. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says TWO YEARS AGO, A
NEW YORK TIMES BOMBSHELL EXPOSED
FILM PRODUCER HARVEY WEINSTEIN'S
HISTORY OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND
ASSAULT.
IT SNOWBALLED AND HAS LED TO A
CULTURAL RECKONING.
HERE FOR THEIR PERSPECTIVES ON
THE METOO MOVEMENT TWO YEARS ON:
DEEPA MATTOO, LAWYER AND
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
BARBRA SCHLIFER COMMEMORATIVE CLINIC...

Deepa is in her thirties, with long straight hair tied back. She's wearing a black sweater and a golden pendant necklace.

Nam continues JANICE RUBIN, CO-FOUNDER AND
CO-MANAGING PARTNER AT THE
EMPLOYMENT LAW FIRM RUBIN THOMLINSON...

Janice is in her forties, with chin-length wavy blond hair. She's wearing a black leather jacket and a black plaid shirt.

Nam continues TANYA VAN BIESEN, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE GLOBAL NONPROFIT
CATALYST IN CANADA...

Tanya is in her fifties, with blond hair in a short bob. She's wearing a dark blue blouse and a pendant necklace.

Nam continues LORI HASKELL, CLINICAL
PSYCHOLOGIST AND ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
PSYCHIATRY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO...

Lori is in her fifties, with short red hair. She's wearing a black jacket and shirt.

Nam continues AND WE WELCOME BACK, ROBYN
DOOLITTLE, INVESTIGATIVE
REPORTER WITH THE GLOBE AND MAIL
AND THE AUTHOR OF "HAD IT
COMING: WHAT'S FAIR IN THE AGE
OF hashtag MeToo?"

Robyn is in her thirties, with long straight black hair. She's wearing a black blazer, gray blouse, and silver pendant necklace.

Nam continues WELCOME TO YOU ALL.
VERY NICE TO HAVE YOU ALL.
AS I SAID AT THE VERY TOP, IT'S
TWO YEARS IN, AND THE hashtag MeToo
MOVEMENT, HAS IT BROUGHT
SYSTEMIC CHANGE TO THE LIVES OF
WOMEN?
I'LL START WITH YOU, LORI.

Lori says THAT'S...

Nam says IT'S A BIG QUESTION.

The caption changes to "Lori Haskell. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "The morals and ethics of the movement."

Lori says THAT'S A REALLY BIG QUESTION
TO START WITH.
I DON'T THINK SO.
I THINK IT'S BEEN A REALLY
IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.
I THINK IT REALLY BROUGHT TO
ATTENTION TO PEOPLE THAT THESE
ARE NOT PRIVATE ACTS.
THE MAGNITUDE OF THE PROBLEM WAS
RECOGNIZED.
I THINK THE INSTITUTIONAL
BETRAYAL WAS RECOGNIZED.
AND I THINK IT MEANT PEOPLE HAD
DIFFERENT QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW
COULD THIS HAPPEN?
HOW COULD THIS BE SO PERVASIVE?
AND I THINK IT ALSO HAD
DIFFERENT QUESTIONS AROUND, WHAT
SHOULD WE DO ABOUT IT?
BUT I THINK FOR WOMEN... MANY
WOMEN ALREADY KNEW IT WAS AS
PERVASIVE AS IT IS.
I'M ALSO A PSYCHOLOGIST WITH A
PRIVATE PRACTICE.
I STILL SEE WOMEN ARE AFRAID TO
GO FORWARD.
THE PSYCHOLOGICAL BURDEN OF WHAT
YOU NEED TO FACE IF YOU WANT A
REMEDY, IF YOU WANT SOMEONE TO
RECOGNIZE YOUR EXPERIENCE.
FOR A LOT OF WOMEN, IT'S TOO BIG
OF A PRICE TO PAY TO GO FORWARD
INTO THE SYSTEM.

Nam says TANYA, TWO YEARS ON,
HAS THIS BROUGHT ABOUT CHANGE?

The caption changes to "Tanya Van Biesen. Catalyst."

Tanya says I WOULD AGREE WITH LORI.
IT HAS BROUGHT SYSTEMIC CHANGES
OF HOW ORGANIZATIONS THINK ABOUT
THIS, THEY'VE UPDATED THEIR
POLICIES, THERE'S MORE OPENNESS
TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION, BUT
FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE MOST
AFFECTED BY THESE ISSUES, AND WE
TALK A LOT ABOUT WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN HOLLYWOOD, BUT
LET'S FACE IT, IT'S WOMEN IN
PRECARIOUS WORK, IT'S WOMEN ON
FRONT LINES WORKING IN HOTELS
AND FAST FOOD ORGANIZATIONS AND
ALL THESE PLACES WHERE THEY
DON'T HAVE THE PLATFORM TO TALK
ABOUT THIS.
HAS A LOT CHANGED?
I DON'T THINK A LOT HAS CHANGED.
AS A SOCIETY WE'VE BECOME
DESENSITIZED TO THESE ISSUES
ALMOST.

Nam says EVEN THOUGH WE SEEM TO
BE TALKING MORE ABOUT IT?

Tanya says WE'RE TALKING MORE ABOUT IT
BUT WE SEEM TO THINK A LOT OF
THIS STUFF IS ACCEPTABLE OR IT'S
NOT A BIG DEAL OR... YOU KNOW,
IN ALL THIS CONVERSATION,
SOMEHOW MEN HAVE BECOME THE
VICTIMS.
I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THAT
TODAY.
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

Nam says WE'LL UNPACK THAT IN A
FEW MINUTES.
JANICE?

The caption changes to "Janice Rubin. Rubin Thomlinson."

Janice says YEAH, I AGREE
AND DISAGREE.
I AGREE THAT WE STILL HAVE
EXTRAORDINARY PROBLEMS TO DEAL
WITH IN TERMS OF HARASSMENT,
SEXISM, DISCRIMINATION IN WORK
PLACES... THAT'S SORT OF THE
AREA IN WHICH I PLAY.
BUT I ACTUALLY SEE THAT THE
NEEDLE HAS MOVED A BIT AND
PERHAPS I'M A LITTLE BIT MORE
OPTIMISTIC THAN LORI AND TANYA,
AND I KNOW THROUGH THE VANTAGE
POINT OF WHAT WE DO, THAT HAS
REALLY CHANGED IN THE LAST
COUPLE OF YEARS IN TERMS OF WHO
IS CALLING US, WHAT THEY'RE
ASKING FOR.
YOU KNOW, PRIOR TO TWO YEARS
AGO, WE WOULD NEVER HEAR FROM A
BOARD.
WE ARE REGULARLY NOW, MEMBERS OF
MY FIRM, PRESENTING IN FRONT OF
BOARDS WHAT IS SEXUAL
HARASSMENT, CREATING INTERNAL
SYSTEMS TO DEAL WITH IT, LEADING
ON THESE PARTICULAR ISSUES, HOW
THEY CAN HOLD THE WORKPLACES
THAT THEY MONITOR ACCOUNTABLE.
SO I DO THINK THAT THE DIAL...
OR THE NEEDLE ON THE DIAL HAS
MOVED A BIT.

Nam says DEEPA?

The caption changes to "Deepa Mattoo. Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic."

Deepa says I KIND OF
WANT TO ECHO EVERYONE'S THOUGHT
PROCESS HERE.
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH LORI.
IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE SYSTEM
AND WE PURELY LOOK AT THE SYSTEM
AS A LEGAL SYSTEM OR A SOCIAL
CONSTRUCT SYSTEM, I DON'T THINK
WE HAVE MOVED A LOT.
I AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT SEEMS
THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF
THIS, OH, ONE MORE TIME YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT METOO, RIGHT?
SO THERE IS A SENSE OF ALMOST
LIKE A FATIGUE THAT PEOPLE ARE
EXPRESSING ABOUT METOO.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE
REALITY IS THAT ALL OF US ON
THIS TABLE ARE BUSIER, WE HAVE
MORE WORK COMING OUR WAY THAN WE
CAN HANDLE.
AT MY CLINIC ALONE, OUR NUMBERS
HAVE MORE THAN DOUBLED AT THIS
POINT.
WE ARE HEADING INTO A PHASE
WHERE WE ARE FINDING IT
OVERWHELMING TO HANDLE THE
NUMBER OF CALLS THAT COME INTO
OUR CLINIC ASKING FOR HELP.
SO HAS SOMETHING SHIFTED?
DEFINITELY SOMETHING HAS
SHIFTED.
HAS THE SYSTEM OF JUSTICE
ITSELF?
I THINK WE HAVE DONE A LITTLE
BIT MORE OF A LIP SERVICE THAN
ACTUALLY...

Nam says YOU'RE SAYING IT HAS
GIVEN PEOPLE PERMISSION TO TALK
ABOUT IT?

Deepa says ABSOLUTELY.

Nam says ROBYN?

Robyn says METOO WORKED.
SEXUAL ASSAULT, SEXUAL
HARASSMENT IS DONE.

Nam says WE CAN GO HOME.

The caption changes to "Robyn Doolittle. Author, "Had it coming.'"

Robyn says IT'S NO LONGER POLITICALLY
CORRECT TO TURN THE OTHER WAY,
AT LEAST AT THESE BIG CORPORATE
ENTITIES.
WE KNOW THAT SEXUAL ASSAULT
COMPLAINTS ARE UP, WE KNOW THAT
COMPLAINTS OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT
IS UP.
HAVE WE SEEN A REDUCTION IN THE
AMOUNT THAT IT'S HAPPENING?
NO. HAVE WE SEEN AN INCREASE IN
CONVICTION RATES? NO.
WE KNOW THESE ISSUES ARE STILL A
PROBLEM.
NOW WHAT?

Nam says I WANTED TO READ
SOMETHING FROM THE BOOK SHE SAID
THE TWO NEW YORK TIMES REPORTERS
WHO BROKE THE HARVEY WEINSTEIN
STORY TWO YEARS AGO...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "When the floodgates open." The quote reads "In the months after we broke the Weinstein story, as the hashtag MeToo movement exploded, so did new debates about topics ranging from date rape to child sexual abuse to gender discrimination and even to awkward encounters at parties. This made the public conversation feel rich and searching, but also confusing: Were the goals to eliminate sexual harassment, reform the criminal justice system, smash the patriarchy, or flirt without giving offense? Had the reckoning gone too far, with innocent men tarnished with less-than-convincing proof, or not to far enough, with a frustrating lack of systemic change?"
Quoted from Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, "She said." 2019.

Nam says MANY SAW THE MOVEMENT
AS A TYPE OF RECKONING.
IS THAT PROBLEMATIC?
LORI?

Lori says IS IT
PROBLEMATIC IN TERMS OF...

Nam says IT BEING SEEN AS A RECKONING.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Lori says YES.
I THINK... I THINK THIS WAS A
REALLY SLOW BUILD TO GET TO THIS
POINT, AND I THINK THAT, YOU
KNOW, IN 2006, TARANA BURKE
TALKED ABOUT METOO AND THIS
WAS LOST.

Nam says THE POLITICAL ACTIVIST?

Lori says YES.
SHE SAID METOO, TWO BLACK
GIRLS WHO WERE REPORTING ALL
KINDS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND RAPE
AND SHE WANTED TO HAVE A SENSE
OF COMMUNITY, A SENSE OF
EMPATHY, TO HAVE PEOPLE HAVE A
GREATER UNDERSTANDING.
SO I THINK NOW WITH THIS SECOND
ROUND IS IT'S A BUILD ON ALL
THAT RECOGNITION AND CHANGE.
THERE IS A FOCUS ON, AS I SAID,
HOW SYSTEMIC AND HOW BIG THIS IS.
AND I THINK THE CHANGE IS GOING
TO BE SLOW.
I THINK WE'VE HAD THIS, YOU
KNOW, WATERSHED MOMENT OF
RECOGNIZING THE PERVASIVENESS,
BUT I THINK THE CHANGE IS GOING
TO BE SLOW.
I THINK PEOPLE WERE REALLY
MOTIVATED IN THE BEGINNING,
THINKING WHAT CAN WE DO, HOW CAN
WE CHANGE THIS?
BUT THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS
PROBLEM AND HOW PERVASIVE AND
WHAT KINDS OF THINGS NEED TO
CHANGE, I THINK WHEN PEOPLE ARE
FACED WITH THAT, AND WE'RE
THINKING, THIS IS NOT GOOD
ENOUGH.
AND WE ARE LOOKING AT POLICIES
AND PROCEDURES.
I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH POLICE
ACROSS THE COUNTRY FOR YEARS
NOW, AND THEY'RE VERY OPEN TO
THIS.
BUT WE WANTED CHANGE TO BE ON
TWO LEVELS: WE WANT MORE
EXTERNAL RECOGNITION AND
CONSEQUENCES TO DETER PEOPLE,
BUT WE WANT AN INTERNAL CHANGE.
WE WANT PEOPLE TO BE MORE IN
TUNE, MORE EMPATHIC.
WE'RE GETTING PEOPLE MORE
PROTECTIVE.
WE WANT TO PROTECT OURSELVES
FROM FALSE ALLEGATIONS INSTEAD
OF WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE SURE
WE NEVER COMMIT THESE TYPES OF
OFFENCES.
THAT IS A REAL PROBLEM.

Nam says ONE OF THE CRITICISMS
OVER THE METOO MOVEMENT IS
THERE HAS BEEN A MOB MENTALITY
AND MEN WERE LOSING THEIR JOBS
WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.
JANICE, DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Janice Rubin, @RubinThomlinson."

Janice says WHAT I AM
INTERESTED IN AS A LAWYER IS
THAT WE ADDRESS THESE SYSTEMIC
ISSUES, WE ADDRESS... YOU KNOW,
THE SYSTEMIC ISSUES ARISE FROM A
CULTURE.
BUT WHEN SOMEONE IS ACCUSED OF
WRONGDOING, THAT THEY BE
AFFORDED A FAIR PROCESS TO
RESPOND AND A FAIR PROCESS...
YOU KNOW, THAT INCORPORATES SOME
OF WHAT LORI HAS TO SAY, FAIR
PROCESS FOR COMPLAINANTS IN
TERMS OF A SAFE SPACE FOR THEM
TO COME FORWARD AND TELL THEIR
STORY, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE WHO
ARE ACCUSED OF THAT WRONGDOING.
AND I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY
THAT'S GOING TO SERVE METOO
FAR BETTER THAN RUSHING TO
JUDGMENT.
YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN
EXAMPLES IN THE LAST COUPLE OF
YEARS WHEN THINGS BECOME PUBLIC
WHERE THE PERSON IT AFFECTS IS
TRIED IN THE MEDIA AND NOT
REALLY GIVEN A FAIR
OPPORTUNITY... A FAIR
OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND.

Nam says DEEPA, WHAT ABOUT THE
FALSELY ACCUSED?

The caption changes to "Deepa Mattoo, @DeepaMattoo."

Deepa says TO BE HONEST
WITH YOU, I WOULD LIKE TO USE
WHAT IS ORIGINALLY MY LANGUAGE,
I WOULD LIKE TO TRANSLATE IT,
AND THE MISTAKES WERE DONE
SOMETIMES ARE PAID FOR
CENTURIES.
THE WRONGS AGAINST WOMEN HAS
BEEN PAID FOR CENTURIES. WHEN
THE METOO MOVEMENT HAPPENED
AND WOMEN ARE COMING FORWARD,
PAYING ATTENTION TO THOSE FEW
CASES WHICH ARE NOT ACCURATE OR
THERE ARE SOME FALSE ACCUSATIONS
HAPPENING.
I THINK WE'RE REALLY DOING A
DISSERVICE TO WOMEN BECAUSE
SILENCING OF WOMEN IS NOT NEW
AND SILENCING OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS
IS NOT NEW.
WHEN THEY WERE TOLD THEY COULD
VOTE, THEY WERE TOLD THEY SHOULD
NOT BE VOTING.
SO DIFFERENT TIMES WOMEN HAVE
ASSERTED FOR THEIR RIGHTS, WE
NEED TO REMEMBER THAT THESE
CONVERSATIONS, WHEN WE PUT TOO
MUCH ATTENTION TO THE FALSE
ACCUSATIONS OR THOSE CASES WHERE
THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE
BIT MORE FAIR PROCESS AND ALL OF
THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE
IMPORTANT.
I'M NOT SAYING... AS A LAWYER, I
DEFINITELY BELIEVE IN DUE
PROCESS.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE NEED TO
REMEMBER THAT THE WRONGS WERE
DONE FOR WAY TOO LONG.
SO IN THIS MOVEMENT, THERE IS A
CHANGE, A TURNING OF TABLES
HAPPENING.
PEOPLE NEED TO BE A LITTLE BIT
MORE COMPASSIONATE TOWARDS THE
WHOLE PROCESS.

Nam says BECAUSE I THINK IN THE
PAST TOO, WE DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL
MEDIA.
NOW WE HAVE THAT ELEMENT WHERE
SOMEONE CAN SAY SOMETHING, AND
IF IT'S FALSE, SOMEONE'S
REPUTATION IS RUINED.
AND EVEN LOOKING AT THIS TABLE,
IT'S ALL WOMEN TALKING ABOUT
THIS.
ROBYN, WHERE ARE THE MEN?
BECAUSE WE NEED TO ENGAGE MEN IN
THIS CONVERSATION; YES?

Robyn says THAT IS
THE KEY I THINK TO PROGRESS, IS
BRINGING MEN IN.
I THINK MEN ARE A LITTLE UNSURE
OF WHERE THEY FIT INTO THIS
RIGHT NOW, WHAT THEY CAN SAY.
I THINK ON THE FALSE ACCUSATION
QUESTION, IT'S FRUSTRATING...

Nam says WHY.

Robyn says TO HEAR IT CONSTANTLY
BROUGHT UP OVER AND OVER AGAIN,
BECAUSE WE KNOW THE STATISTICS
ARE SO LOW.
THE ODDS OF BEING FALSELY ACCUSED...

Nam says WHAT ARE THE STATISTICS?

The caption changes to "Robyn Doolittle, @robyndoolittle."

Robyn says MOST ACADEMIC RESPECTED
STUDIES PIN IT BETWEEN 2 AND
8 PERCENT.
SO YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO MAKE UP
THAT YOUR CAR WAS STOLEN AND
FILE A FALSE INSURANCE CLAIM
THAN A FALSE REPORT OF SEXUAL
ASSAULT.
THAT SAID, THERE IS A VERY REAL
FEAR AMONG MEN ABOUT FALSE
ACCUSATIONS, AND IT IS TRUE THAT
EVEN AN ACCUSATION CAN HANG OVER
YOU.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO HEAR
THAT.
WE CAN'T JUST DISMISS THAT THAT
CLAIM EXISTS.
I MEAN, TO ADDRESS THE ELEPHANT
IN THE ROOM, I SPEND AN ENTIRE
CHAPTER IN THE BOOK LOOKING AT
THE ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST
STEVE PAIKIN.
THAT CASE I THINK IS HELD UP AS
AN EXAMPLE OF, LOOK, THE SYSTEM
WORKS.
SO A WOMAN, SARA THOMPSON, A
RESPECTED... WELL, CONTROVERSIAL
AND RESPECTED TORONTO POLITICIAN
ACCUSED STEVE PAIKIN OF
EXTORTING SEX FROM HER OR TRYING
TO, AND SHE MADE AN ACCUSATION,
AND TVO I THINK WAS WIDELY
PRAISED FOR NOT JUMPING TO ANY
CONCLUSIONS.
THEY HIRED AN OUTSIDE THIRD
PARTY INVESTIGATOR.
I MEAN, IN SOME WAYS LUCKY FOR
STEVE PAIKIN, LOTS OF EVIDENCE
THAT THEY COULD LOOK AT AND
CHASE DOWN.
IN THE END, THAT ALLEGATION WAS
NOT SUBSTANTIATED.
HE IS NOT THOUGHT OF, I THINK,
AS A METOO OFFENDER, AND
EVERYONE SORT OF MOVED ON.
LOOK, THIS WAS A CASE THAT
WORKED.
THERE WAS DUE PROCESS.
A COMPLAINANT RAISED A CONCERN.
BUT I WANTED TO HEAR FROM STEVE,
DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WERE
EXONERATED, THAT THIS IS OVER?
AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, HE
RECOGNIZES THAT, SURE, MOST
PEOPLE PROBABLY DON'T THINK THAT
THIS HAPPENED.
I DON'T THINK THAT IT HAPPENED,
BY THE WAY.
I LOOKED AT THE EVIDENCE AS WELL.

The caption changes to "Robyn Doolittle. The Globe and Mail."

Robyn continues BUT IT'S STILL... IT'S A CLOUD
THAT FOLLOWS HIM AROUND AND HE
STILL FEELS IT, YOU KNOW, MORE
THAN A YEAR LATER.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO HEAR THAT
CONCERN FROM MEN AND VALIDATE
IT.
LIKE, IT'S REAL, SO LET'S TALK
ABOUT IT.

Nam says TANYA?

The caption changes to "Tanya Van Biesen, @TanyavanB."

Tanya says IT'S SUCH
AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION.
THE WORK WE DO WITH
ORGANIZATIONS EVERY DAY, WHAT WE
SAY TO THEM, ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT THINGS YOU CAN DO
OUTSIDE OF EDUCATION AND MAKE
SURE YOUR POLICIES AND PROCESSES
ARE IN PLACE, TO MAKE SURE YOU
PROVIDE SUPPORT TO BOTH THE
COMPLAINANT AND THE ACCUSED.
THAT IS CRITICAL.
BECAUSE THERE HAS TO BE DUE
PROCESS, AND I AGREE WITH
JANICE.
THE VERY WORST OUTCOME FOR MEN
AND WOMEN IS WHEN WE HAVE MEN
WHO ARE FALSELY ACCUSED.
SO THAT IS A BAD OUTCOME FOR
EVERYBODY.
BUT 2 TO 8 PERCENT OF CASES ARE
FALSE ACCUSATIONS.
SO WE HAVE TO PUT THAT IN
CONTEXT.
WHAT I WORRY IS THE STORY HAS
BECOME ABOUT ALL THESE FALSE
ACCUSATIONS AS OPPOSED TO ALL
THE REAL SITUATIONS THAT HAVE
BEEN GOING ON FOR HUNDREDS OF
YEARS, THOUSANDS OF YEARS, AND
CONTINUE TO GO ON TODAY.
SO WE HAVE TO PUT ALL OF THAT IN
A CONTEXT, AND UNFORTUNATELY, I
THINK THE BALANCE HAS BEEN LOST
A LITTLE BIT.
I AGREE WITH ROBYN, THIS NOTION
OF FEAR OF MEN ENGAGES IN
DISCUSSIONS OF EQUITY OR JUST
BROADLY EQUITY OR SEXUAL
HARASSMENT IS HUGE.
WE HAVE BEEN RESEARCHING THAT
FOR 15 YEARS.
TO PUT OUR HEADS IN THE SAND AS
WOMEN, THAT SHOULD BE DISMISSED
OR THIS OR THAT, IT'S REAL AND
WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT.
AND I THINK THE MOST POWERFUL
THING WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW IS TO
BRING MEN INTO THIS CONVERSATION
AND TO, YOU KNOW, THIS NOTION OF
THE MIKE PENCE RULE... I WON'T
GO ANYWHERE WITH A WOMAN UNLESS
MY WIFE IS PRESENT.
IT'S SO RIDICULOUS.
THIS IS THE TIME WHERE WE NEED
MEN TO STEP IN, RIGHT?
TO STEP IN AND SUPPORT WOMEN,
AND AS WOMEN, WE NEED TO BE
ACCEPTING OF THE FACT THAT, HEY,
MAYBE THEY'LL SAY SOMETHING THAT
WE FIND WRONG OR OFFSIDE AND NOT
VOTE THEM OFF THE ISLAND.
LIKE, WE NEED THEM IN THE GAME.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Nam says JANICE, YOU WANTED TO
SAY SOMETHING?

Janice says I WANT TO SAY
THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF
YEARS... NOW, THIS IS ANECDOTAL,
THIS COMES FROM OUR PRACTICE...
BUT WE'VE SEEN MANY EXAMPLES OF
PEOPLE SORT OF RISING UP AND
SHOWING EXTRAORDINARY LEADERSHIP
ON THIS ISSUE, BOTH MEN AND
WOMEN.
SO I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF A
MAN THAT ACTUALLY COMES FROM
YOUR INVESTIGATION, ROBYN.
I HAD A CLIENT CALL ME, A CEO,
WHO SAID I'VE JUST BEEN READING
ROBYN'S ARTICLES, AND THAT
PROMPTED ME TO LOOK AT OUR OWN
INTERNAL SYSTEM OF
INVESTIGATING, NOW IN MY WORLD,
SEXUAL HARASSMENT, NOT SEXUAL
ASSAULT.
AND I FOUND OUT THAT OF THE 15
INVESTIGATIONS THAT WE DID IN
THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, ONLY
TWO SUBSTANTIATED THE
ALLEGATIONS OF THE COMPLAINANT.
NOW, THAT IS WRONG, AND I'M
GOING TO LOOK DEEPER TO SEE WHAT
THE PROBLEM IS.
AND OF COURSE THE INTERNAL
PROBLEMS WERE VERY MUCH LIKE THE
INTERNAL PROBLEMS THAT YOU WERE
REPORTING, WHICH THE
INVESTIGATORS DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
WHAT SEXUAL HARASSMENT WAS, WERE
KIND OF SHRUGGING THEIR
SHOULDERS WHERE SOMEBODY
COULDN'T OFFER A FULL AND
COMPLETE NARRATIVE.
SO THAT IS SOMEBODY STEPPING UP
TO THE CHALLENGE AND THAT
SOMEBODY IN THAT CASE WAS A MAN.
THE OTHER EXAMPLE THAT I WILL
GIVE YOU ARE BYSTANDERS.
IN OUR PRACTICE WE HAVE SEEN
SORT OF AN ENERGY, PART OF THE
ZEITGEIST OF METOO WHERE PEOPLE
ARE SEEING THINGS IN THE WORK
PLACE. THAT DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT.
THAT SOUNDS LIKE A HARVEY
WEINSTEIN THING OR A MATT LAUER
THING OR WHATEVER, IT'S NOT
AFFECTING ME DIRECTLY, I'M NOT
THE TARGET, BUT MY COLLEAGUES
ARE, AND I'M IN A POSITION TO
ASSERT SOMETHING ON THEIR
BEHALF.
SO FOR ME, THAT'S ONE OF THE
REASONS WHY I'M CAUTIOUSLY
OPTIMISTIC IN TERMS OF THE
NEEDLE MOVING A BIT.

Nam says YOU KNOW, ROBYN, YOU
WRITE A LOT ABOUT PUBLIC
PERCEPTION AND HOW THE NEEDLE
HAS SHIFTED WITH SOCIAL MEDIA
AND HAVING THIS hashtag MeToo
MOVEMENT.
YOU KNOW, WITH THE U.S. POLITICS
KIND OF DOMINATING, TAKING UP
ALL THE OXYGEN IN THE ROOM, WE
SAW WHAT HAPPENED IN THE U.S.
WITH KAVANAGH.
DO YOU WORRY THIS HAS BECOME A
PARTISAN ISSUE, AND IF IT IS A
PARTISAN ISSUE, HOW DO YOU GET
PEOPLE TO SEE BEYOND THAT?

Robyn says ONE OF THE
MAIN THINGS I WRITE ABOUT IN THE
BOOK AT THE END, HOW DO WE GO
FORWARD?
WE NEED TO DEPOLITICIZE METOO.
RIGHT NOW IT REALLY HAS BECOME
THAT ISSUE OF, IF YOU'RE A
PROGRESSIVE, YOU'RE ON THE SIDE
OF SURVIVORS, AND IF YOU'RE A
RIGHT-WINGER, THEN THIS IS A WAR
ON MEN.
THERE'S REALLY NO ROOM FOR THE
MIDDLE, AND THAT'S RIDICULOUS.
YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY, I
ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT SOMEONE'S
ABILITY TO SPEAK THEIR TRUTH,
CONFRONT THEIR ACCUSER, BE TAKEN
SERIOUSLY, AND SOMEONE'S ABILITY
TO MOUNT A DEFENCE, DEFEND
THEMSELVES.
TO MOVE FORWARD, WE NEED TO GET
AWAY FROM THIS, AND HOW DO WE DO
THAT?
I THINK PART OF IT IS, YOU KNOW,
HAVING CONVERSATIONS, AS WE KEEP
SAYING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BUT
HAVING SMART CONVERSATIONS.
IF YOU'RE AT THANKSGIVING AND
YOUR UNCLE BOB STARTS
COMPLAINING ABOUT A WAR ON MEN,
MAYBE DON'T TURN TO HIM AND
START SCREAMING, IF YOU ACTUALLY
WANT TO... TO TRY TO CHANGE HIS
MIND.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO CHANGE HIS
MIND, QUIETLY EAT YOUR TURKEY
AND TALK TO UNCLE BOB LATER.
IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE HIS MIND,
MAYBE YELLING TO HIM ABOUT THE
RAPE CULTURE AND MISOGYNY IS NOT
GOING TO DO IT.
YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE,
BUT DON'T USE THOSE WORDS
BECAUSE THE UNCLE BOBS OF THE
WORLD MIGHT BE TRIGGERED BY THEM.

Nam says SHE FOUNDED THE
HASHTAG METOO IN 2006.
SHE QUESTIONED HER INVOLVEMENT
WITH THE HOLLYWOOD ACTRESSES.
WHY HAS SHE HAD A CHANGE OF HEART?

The caption changes to "Not all women."

Lori says I THINK BECAUSE OF THE
ABSENCE OF WOMEN OF COLOUR AND
IN OUR CONTEXT OF INDIGENOUS
WOMEN, THEIR STORIES AREN'T THE
STORIES BEING PUT FORWARD BY THE
MEDIA.
THEY'RE NOT PART OF THE METOO
MOVEMENT.
AND I ACTUALLY... I'M WORKING
WITH INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES
AROUND HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND
OTHER ISSUES RIGHT NOW.
SO BEFORE I CAME ON THE SHOW, I
CALLED MY CONTACTS, AND I SAID,
HOW DO YOU FEEL METOO HAS
HELPED YOUR COMMUNITY?
AND THEY GOT BACK TO ME AND SAID
THERE'S A SILENCE.
WE FEEL WE'RE ALWAYS A FOOTNOTE.
WE DON'T FEEL LIKE WE'RE PART OF
THIS.
TARANA BURKE, I SAW HER SPEAK IN
BOSTON.
SHE REALLY WANTED THIS TO BE A
MOVEMENT FOR ALL WOMEN, TO HAVE
WOMEN'S EXPERIENCES RECOGNIZED,
AND YET WE'RE SEEING MOSTLY
WHITE PRIVILEGED WOMEN WHO HAVE
INFLUENCE, WHO HAVE MORE POWER,
WHO HAVE MORE DRAMATIC STORIES.
SO I THINK WE NEED TO BROADEN
THIS.
IT'S A REALLY KEY TIME.
I MEAN, THE RATES OF SEXUAL
VIOLENCE IN THE LIVES OF
INDIGENOUS WOMEN IS MORE THAN
THREE TIMES OF WOMEN IN THE
COMMUNITY.

Nam says WHY DO WOMEN IN
MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES FEEL
THEY CAN'T SPEAK UP?

Deepa says THERE ARE
MANY REASONS, SOME HISTORICAL,
BUT WHAT HAPPENS IN THEIR LIVES
ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.
OUR CLINIC WORKS WITH A LOT OF
NON-STATUS, PRECARIOUSLY
EMPLOYED WOMEN.
WE ACTUALLY HAVE A PROJECT,
FUNDED BY A MAN, CALLED AND ME
TOO.
IT WORKS WITH WOMEN WHO ARE
PRECARIOUSLY EMPLOYED OR
PRECARIOUS IN THEIR IMMIGRATION
STATUS.
IF THEY ENGAGE WITH THE
SYSTEM... WHILE TRYING TO GET
JUSTICE FROM A CRIMINAL LEGAL
SYSTEM, THEY WOULD ALSO BE
PROSECUTED IN THE IMMIGRATION
SYSTEM AND BEING CRIMINALIZED IN
THE SYSTEM THEMSELVES BECAUSE
THEY ARE NOT COOPERATING WITH
THE SYSTEM THE WAY THE SYSTEM
MAY WANT TO HAVE THEM SPEAK.
IN THOSE KINDS OF SITUATIONS,
WHAT CHOICES DO WOMEN REALLY
HAVE, RIGHT?
AND IN TERMS OF THE HISTORICAL
CONTEXT OF WOMEN, WE KNOW THAT
WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES
OF VIOLENCE IN THEIR LIVES, IT'S
SO SYSTEMIC.
IT'S NOT NECESSARILY ONE THING.
IT'S NOT ONE INCIDENT.
IT'S NOT ONE WORKPLACE.
IT'S THEIR LIVES THAT WE ARE
TALKING ABOUT.
SO THE COMPLEXITY OF THE WOMEN
WHO DID NOT SPEAK IN THE
MOVEMENT IS DEFINITELY... I
THINK IT HAS TO BE A CHOICE
BASED FOR ANY WOMAN, IT HAS TO
BE A SELF DETERMINATION, WHETHER
YOU WANT TO SPEAK OR NOT.
BUT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, SOME
WOMEN DON'T HAVE THAT CHOICE TO
MAKE AND I THINK A LOT OF
MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES COME
FROM THAT.

Nam says HOW DO WE SUPPORT THEM THEN?

Deepa says WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE
RESOURCES WHICH WE ALLOCATE
COMING OUT OF THE METOO
MOVEMENT ARE ALLOCATED TO THOSE
WOMEN, AND THAT WE MAKE SURE
THAT THEY HAVE... AND WHAT WAY
THEY ORGANIZE, THIS ORGANIZING
IS GOING TO HAPPEN ON A KITCHEN
TABLE FOR THEM, THAT ORGANIZING
IS POSSIBLE FOR THEM, OR IF IT
IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN A BASEMENT
OF A CHURCH, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR
THEM.
SO MAKING SURE THAT ALL OF THOSE
SPACES ARE SUPPORTED.
BECAUSE WE HAVE TO REMEMBER,
METOO WAS A SOCIAL MEDIA BASED
MOVEMENT BUT METOO IS NOT NEW TO
THEM. WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS ALARMED
EACH OTHER OF CREEPERS IN THEIR
LIVES, RIGHT?

Nam says YOU WRITE ABOUT THAT
IN THE BOOK.

Deepa says SO WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS DONE THAT.
I DIDN'T GROW UP IN CANADA.
I GREW UP IN INDIA.
MY EXPERIENCES ARE NO DIFFERENT
THAN YOURS OR ANYONE ELSE'S IN
THE ROOM.
WE ARE VERY MUCH CONNECTED, WHAT
OUR EXPERIENCES HAVE BEEN.

Tanya says I WOULD ADD TO THAT, IN A
WORKPLACE SETTING, I THINK ONE
OF THE BIG BENEFITS TO THIS
DISCUSSION AROUND METOO IS
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT
NOW, IS THE FACT THAT THERE HAVE
BEEN LOST WOMEN IN THIS WHOLE
DISCUSSION.
SO THE FACT THAT WE'RE HAVING
THIS CONVERSATION I THINK IS
CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.
WHEN WE WORK WITH ORGANIZATIONS,
WE REMIND THEM THAT THE
COMPLEXITY OF INTERSECTIONALITY
IS A BIG, BIG PART OF THIS
ISSUE. SO TO HOMOGENIZE ALL
WOMEN, YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN THE
SAME WAY YOU CAN'T WITH ALL MEN.
THE INTERSECTIONALITIES OF RACE,
ETHNICITY, SEXUAL ORIENTATION,
GENDER FLUIDITY... ALL OF THOSE
PIECES ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.
SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW YOU
ESTABLISH YOUR POLICIES AND YOUR
CULTURE OF INCLUSION, YOU HAVE
TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT SOME OF
THESE MUCH HIGHER-RISK GROUPS.
SO A WHITE WOMAN ACTUALLY IS AT
A LOWER RISK THAN A BLACK WOMAN
OR A WOMAN WHO IDENTIFIES AS
LESBIAN... LIKE, ALL OF THESE
THINGS CREATE GREAT
COMPLEXITIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS
ARE OPEN TO THESE DISCUSSIONS,
TO UNDERSTAND, LIKE, ALL PEOPLE
ARE NOT CREATED EQUALLY WHEN IT
COMES TO THE RISK OF SEXUAL
HARASSMENT.

Nam says JANICE?

Janice says I THINK ONE
OF THE THINGS WE HAVE COME TO
LEARN IN A MORE DEEP WAY OVER
THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS IS
UNDERREPORTING.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A WORKPLACE
PHENOMENA, A CULTURAL PHENOMENA,
AND YET VERY FEW OF THESE CASES
EVER COME FORWARD, WHETHER IT'S
IN THE CRIMINAL CONTEXT OR THE
WORKPLACE CONTEXT.
AND WHEN YOU CONSIDER
INTERSECTIONALITY THERE, FOR
SOMEBODY TO REPORT, IF YOU ARE
GENDER NONCONFORMING, IF YOU ARE
RACIALIZED, THE STAKES ARE MUCH,
MUCH HIGHER, AS MUCH AS THE
STAKES ARE HIGHER FOR ANYBODY
COMING FORWARD.
SO IN TERMS OF THE OPERATION OF
THE SYSTEM, THAT SYSTEM HAS TO
RECOGNIZE THAT FOR SOME PLAYERS,
IT'S JUST GOING TO BE HARDER,
AND PERHAPS THERE ARE OTHER WAYS
FOR PEOPLE TO BRING FORWARD
THEIR EXPERIENCES SHORT OF
MAKING A COMPLAINT.
SO SOME OF THE PROCESSES THAT
WE'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN OVER THE
LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HAVE BEEN
PROACTIVE ASSESSMENT.
SO RATHER THAN WAITING FOR A
COMPLAINT THAT MAY NEVER COME,
BECAUSE, AS I SAY, MOST PEOPLE
DON'T COMPLAIN.
WE'VE GONE IN AND ASKED PEOPLE
ON A CONFIDENTIAL BASIS, WHAT
ARE YOUR EXPERIENCES?
AND WHEN YOU ARE ABLE TO GIVE
THEM THE SAFETY OF, YOU KNOW,
YOUR NAME IS NOT ATTACHED TO IT,
WE WILL REPORT BACK TO THE
EMPLOYER ON A THEMATIC BASIS,
BUT YOUR VOICE WILL BE HEARD IN
THAT WAY, IT IS EXTRAORDINARY
WHETHER A PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO
TELL YOU.

Nam says I THINK IT'S REALLY
INTERESTING THAT YOU SAID THAT
MOST PEOPLE DON'T REPORT.

Janice says MOST PEOPLE DO NOT.

Nam says I THINK THERE'S A
FEELING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
REPORTING, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
TALKING, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING.

Tanya says THE STAKES ARE SO HIGH.
SO HIGH.

Janice says MOST PEOPLE DON'T REPORT, AND
ACCORDING TO ANGUS REID, A
SURVEY A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO,
NOT ONLY DO MOST PEOPLE NOT
REPORT, BUT 89 PERCENT OF WOMEN
ADOPT STRATEGIES TO AVOID SEXUAL
HARASSMENT IN THE WORKPLACE.
SO IT'S THERE AND WE KIND OF
THINK THROUGH, OKAY, AM I GOING
TO AVOID YOUR POOR UNCLE BOB, TO
USE YOUR EXAMPLE HERE, AM I
GOING TO TAKE THE STAIRS?
AM I GOING TO MOVE MY DESK?
AM I NOT GOING TO LOOK UP WHEN
CREEPO EMPLOYEE COMES DOWN THE
HALL, RIGHT?
THAT IS A PART OF MANY OF OUR LIVES.

Nam says ROBYN, IN YOUR BOOK
YOU ADDRESS THIS ISSUE IN THE
WORKPLACE.
YOU SAID THERE'S BEEN AN
EMPHASIS ON LIABILITY AND LESS
CONCERN ABOUT THE BEHAVIOUR.
WHY DO BUSINESSES GET CO-OPTED
INTO PROTECTING PREDATORS?

The caption changes to "Backlash in the workplace?"

Robyn says THIS GOES
INTO THE, HOW FAR ARE WE MOVING
WITH METOO AND WHAT STATISTICS
SHOW IS THAT SOMETHING LIKE
95 PERCENT OF CEOS SAY SEXUAL
HARASSMENT IS NOT A PROBLEM IN
THEIR WORKPLACE.
LIKE, THAT'S CRAZY, THAT THAT IS
A NUMBER.
IT DOESN'T INSTIL A LOT OF
CONFIDENCE.
I MEAN, THE PRACTICAL THING I
GUESS IS EMPLOYERS HAVE TO THINK
ABOUT LIABILITY, RIGHT?
AND THIS IS... IT'S THE SAME
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE
REDEMPTION QUESTION OF WHETHER
PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED HARM
DESERVE A SECOND CHANCE.
ONE OF THE BIG THINGS WE WANT
FROM THEM IS AN APOLOGY, AN
HONEST ADMISSION OF WRONGDOING.
THE PRACTICAL SIDE IS THAT
ESPECIALLY AS BEHAVIOUR CROSSES
INTO CRIMINAL TERRITORY, SOMEONE
MIGHT BE RELUCTANT TO DO THAT
BECAUSE THEY COULD OPEN
THEMSELVES UP TO A PROSECUTION.
THAT'S WHY IT'S JUST SO TRICKY
TO LOOK AT THIS FROM, WE WANT
MOVEMENT TO COME FROM THE TOP
THAT'S GOING TO FIX THIS.
IT'S REALLY ABOUT, WE NEED TO
REWIRE ALL OF OUR BRAINS, LIKE
EVERY PERSON, NO MATTER WHERE
YOU WORK, NO MATTER WHAT STATUS
YOU'RE AT, ABOUT THESE OUTDATED
IDEAS WE HAVE, THESE RAPE MYTHS
AND STEREOTYPES.

Nam says DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S A BIG ASK?

Robyn says IT'S A HUGE ASK.
BUT IT'S POSSIBLE.
IF YOU POLL PEOPLE IN THE
COUNTRY, IS RAPE GOOD?
PEOPLE WOULD SAY NO.
IS SEXUAL HARASSMENT GOOD?
PEOPLE WOULD SAY NO.
THE DISCREPANCY COMES ON WHAT
CONSTITUTES THAT BEHAVIOUR.
MOST PEOPLE I THINK ARE GOOD
PEOPLE.
IT'S JUST AN HONEST, YOU KNOW,
DIFFERING IDEAS OR WE'VE BEEN
WIRED WRONG.
SO THIS GETS BACK TO THE
CONVERSATION I THINK ABOUT
CONSENT, WHICH IS JUST SO KEY,
AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT CONSENT
MEANS IN A SEXUAL SITUATION,
WHAT CONSENT MEANS IN A
WORKPLACE SITUATION.
THERE'S ONE POLL THAT I LOOKED
AT THAT SAID SOMETHING LIKE A
QUARTER OF MILLENNIAL MEN THINK
IT'S OKAY FOR A BOSS TO KISS AN
EMPLOYEE ON THE CHEEK, TO LOOK
AT PORN AT WORK, TO GIVE
UNINVITED SHOULDER RUBS... LIKE,
THIS IS NOT ENCOURAGING.
SO WE CAN'T WAIT FOR THE BOSS TO
FIX THOSE GUYS.
WE NEED TO GET TO THOSE GUYS.

Nam says WE HAVE A POLL AT WHAT
THE SITUATION LOOKS LIKE AT WORK.
THE ORGANIZATION LEAN IN DID A
SURVEY AND FOUND THAT IN THE
WAKE OF THE METOO MOVEMENT,
INSTEAD OF SUPPORTING WOMEN AT
WORK, MEN ARE PULLING BACK.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE NUMBERS.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Backlash at work?"

Nam reads data from the slate and says
60 percent OF MALE MANAGERS ARE
UNCOMFORTABLE MENTORING WORKING
ALONE WITH OR SOCIALIZING WITH
WOMEN, UP FROM 46 percent A YEAR AGO.
36 percent OF MEN SAY THEY AVOID
MENTORING OR SOCIALIZING WITH A
WOMAN BECAUSE THEY'RE NERVOUS
ABOUT HOW IT WOULD LOOK.
24 percent OF WOMEN SAY HARASSMENT AT
WORK IS INCREASING.
BUT 27 percent OF MEN SAY THAT
HARASSMENT IS DECREASING.
50 percent OF MEN SAY THAT HARASSMENT
CONSEQUENCES ARE MORE DAMAGING
TO THE CAREERS OF HARASSERS, NOT
THE VICTIM.
WOMEN SEE THIS DIFFERENTLY.
64 percent SAY IT'S THE VICTIMS WHO END
UP PAYING A HEAVIER PRICE.
JANICE, ARE THESE...

[MIXED VOICES]

Nam says I HEARD A LOT OVER THERE.
THESE ARE AMERICAN STATS.
BUT DO THEY PAINT A SIMILAR
PICTURE HERE IN CANADA?

Janice says GOSH, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO
ANSWER THAT QUESTION EXACTLY.
I THINK WE'RE AT A PARTICULAR
MOMENT OF TIME.
SOME OF THAT DATA RESONATES WITH
ME AND SOME OF IT DOES NOT.
IN TERMS OF THE PERCEPTION THAT
VICTIMS PAY THE PRICE, FOR SURE.
HISTORICALLY, YOU KNOW, WHEN
SOMEBODY HAS COME FORWARD, IF IT
IS INVESTIGATED AND IF
HARASSMENT HAS BEEN FOUND AT THE
WORKPLACE, THE HISTORIC EQUATION
IS, OKAY, WHAT'S IT WORTH?
WE'LL ALLOW YOU TO KIND OF MAKE
A GRACEFUL EXIT.
IF IT'S WORTH 50,000, 60,000 dollars,
OUT YOU GO, SIGN A
CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT, AND
YOU'RE DONE.
SO LIKE WHO IS THE LOSER THERE?
THE COMPLAINANT.
BECAUSE THE COMPLAINANT HAS HAD
TO EXIT THE WORKPLACE.
THE WORKPLACE HAS NOT BEEN
REMEDIED FOR HER.
AND TYPICALLY THE PERSON WHO HAS
ENGAGED IN HARASSMENT HASN'T
BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE IN A
MEANINGFUL WAY, MAYBE A SLAP ON
THE HAND, COACHING, SOMETHING
LESS THAN THAT.
I THINK THAT THAT EQUATION IS
SLOWLY SHIFTING, IN PART BECAUSE
THE LEGAL SYSTEM IS... WE
HAVEN'T REALLY TALKED THAT MUCH
ABOUT IT... BUT AT LEAST IN THE
CIVIL AREA, WHICH I KNOW THE
BEST, THE LEGAL SYSTEM IS
CHANGING, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE
STATUTORY FRAMEWORK THAT IS
APPLIED TO THESE KINDS OF CASES
AS WELL AS CASE LAW.
IN TERMS OF MEN BEING AFRAID TO
BE IN A ROOM WITH A WOMAN ALONE,
I MUST SAY FROM OUR PRACTICE,
AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT OUR
PRACTICE HAS THE TRUTH OF ALL
THINGS, THAT IS JUST NOT RINGING
TRUE.
I THINK WHAT MAY BE HAPPENING IS
THAT THERE ARE MEN NOW WHO ARE
BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR
BEHAVIOUR THAT PREVIOUSLY HAS
BEEN OKAY.
THE GRATUITOUS KISS, THE
INVASION OF PERSONAL SPACE, THE
TYPES OF BEHAVIOUR THAT PERHAPS
HAS BEEN VIEWED HISTORICALLY AS
LESS EGREGIOUS, AND THEY'RE
UNHAPPY ABOUT THAT, AND PERHAPS
THAT'S THE ITERATION OF IT.
AS I SAY, THAT IS NOT COMING
FROM THE WORK THAT WE DO, BUT
PEOPLE AT THE TABLE MAY BE
HAVING DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES.

Nam says TANYA, ARE WOMEN
SUFFERING AS A CONSEQUENCE OF
METOO IN THE WORKPLACE?

Tanya says WHEN I
READ THOSE STATS, WHAT STRIKES
ME IS I THINK THERE'S A LACK OF
EDUCATION.
I STILL THINK THERE'S A LACK OF
UNDERSTANDING WITHIN WORKPLACES
OF WHAT CONSTITUTES SEXUAL
HARASSMENT.
WE THINK OF THE EGREGIOUS
ISSUES, THE EXAMPLES THAT WE SEE
IN THE MEDIA.
BUT THERE'S A WHOLE CONTINUUM OF
WHAT CONSTITUTES SEXUAL
HARASSMENT.
SO I THINK EDUCATION FOR ALL
PEOPLE IN WORKPLACES IS REALLY
CRITICAL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT
IS, WHERE IT STARTS, BECAUSE
THERE'S AN ENTRY POINT, AND THEN
EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW WHAT THAT
LOOKS LIKE.
SO I LOOK AT THAT DATA AND I
THINK THERE'S STILL A LACK OF
UNDERSTANDING AMONG MEN AND
WOMEN OF WHAT CONSTITUTES SEXUAL
HARASSMENT.
I DO AGREE WITH JANICE.
I THINK WOMEN ARE ULTIMATELY THE
LOSERS.
EVEN IF THEY'RE PAID OUT TO
LEAVE THEIR WORKPLACE, THOSE
WOMEN ARE STRUGGLING TO FIND
ANOTHER JOB.
THESE STORIES FOLLOW THEM AROUND
IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE HAVE
THESE SITUATIONS WHERE STORIES
FOLLOW MEN AROUND.
THESE STORIES FOLLOW WOMEN
AROUND TOO.
SO IT BECOMES VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT.
AGAIN, I LOOK AT THAT DATA AND
I... WHEN ROBYN WAS TALKING
ABOUT THE POLITICAL DIVIDE.
I DO AGREE THAT THE VAST
MAJORITY OF MEN ARE IN THE
MIDDLE, AND THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE
WHO DON'T WANT TO HARM OTHER
PEOPLE.
LIKE, I DON'T BELIEVE WE LIVE IN
THIS BIG, BAD WORLD OUT THERE.
THERE ARE SOME BAD APPLES.
BUT IN THE MIDDLE THERE IS THIS
GROUP OF MEN WHO ARE TRYING TO
FIGURE OUT, WHAT DO I DO, HOW DO
I CONTRIBUTE, HOW CAN I BE ON
THE RIGHT SIDE OF THIS?
I THINK BYSTANDER TRAINING IS SO
CRITICAL.
BECAUSE A LOT OF THIS STUFF
HAPPENS WHEN SOMEONE IS STANDING
BY OR A GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE
STANDING BY AND THEY KNOW IT'S
WRONG OR THEY KNOW IT FEELS
OFFSIDE, BUT THEY'RE JUST NOT
SURE HOW TO ENGAGE IN THAT
CONVERSATION.
SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE
BIGGEST THINGS ORGANIZATIONS CAN
DO, IS TO ENGAGE THE EMPLOYEE
POPULATION, SAY, HEY, WE ALL
HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY.
THIS IS NOT GOING TO COME FROM
THE CEO EXCLUSIVELY OR HR
EXCLUSIVELY.
WE ALL HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY IN
CREATING A RESPECTFUL WORKPLACE.

Nam says AS INDIVIDUALS.

Tanya says AS INDIVIDUALS.

Nam says DEEPA, WHAT DO YOU
THINK WILL BE THE LASTING LEGACY
OF THE METOO MOVEMENT?

Deepa says I THINK THE
CONVERSATIONS THAT WE ARE
HAVING.
I THINK THIS PANEL AND THE
BEGINNING OF THE FACT THAT WE
ARE THINKING ABOUT TALKING TO
BOB, UNCLE BOB, AT THE DINNER
TABLE, RIGHT?
THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE
HAPPENING AND WE ARE ALL
ENGAGING IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS.
I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE...
DEFINITELY THE LASTING LEGACY
THAT THE METOO MOVEMENT HAS
LEFT.
THAT IT HAS COME OUT IN THE
OPEN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.
I ALSO WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, THE
CLINIC HAS INDEPENDENT LEGAL
ADVICE PROJECT FOR SEXUAL
ASSAULT VIOLENCE, WHICH INCLUDES
SEXUAL HARASSMENT CLIENTS AS
WELL.
AND A LOT OF THE MEN, ONCE THEY
KNOW WHAT THEIR OPTIONS ARE,
ONCE THEIR CHOICES ARE, SEEM A
LOT MORE IN CONTROL.
JUST BY KNOWING THAT, OKAY, I
CAN'T CAN DO THIS.
MAYBE I WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT.
BUT AT LEAST THINKING ABOUT WHAT
TO DO IN SITUATIONS IS
IMPORTANT.
WE KNOW THE NUMBER OF CALLS WE
ARE RECEIVING IS GOING UP.
A LOT MORE WOMEN ARE MORE
INFORMED.
I THINK THAT'S A HUGE LEGACY AS
WELL.
BUT I JUST WANT TO SAY ONE VERY
QUICK THING AROUND THE FACT THAT
MEN AND HOW THEY CAN BE PART OF
THE MOVEMENT.
I THINK WHAT IS ALSO IMPORTANT
FOR MEN TO REMEMBER IS WHEN YOU
WANT TO BE AN ALLY, WOMEN HAVE
TO IDENTIFY YOU.
YOU CANNOT JUST GO ON THE
ROOFTOP AND YELL, I AM AN ALLY,
THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.
IN TERMS OF THEM NOT MENTORING
US, I'M NOT SURE... THEY WERE
NOT MENTORING US ALREADY.
WOMEN ARE COMING AND TALKING
ABOUT IT.
HMM, I DON'T KNOW.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Nam says WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME.
I WISH WE HAD MORE TIME TO TALK
ABOUT THIS, BUT WE THANK YOU ALL
FOR MAKING THE TIME TO COME TO
TVO TO TALK ABOUT THIS IMPORTANT
ANNIVERSARY.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: #MeToo At Two