Transcript: Summer Gun Violence | Aug 13, 2019

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a black blazer over a pink shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Summer gun violence. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says 17 PEOPLE WERE SHOT ACROSS THE
GREATER TORONTO AREA OVER THE
AUGUST LONG WEEKEND.
MORE IN THE DAYS SINCE.
IT WAS EVEN TOP OF MIND AS THE
PRIME MINISTER AND TORONTO'S
MAYOR MET TODAY.
WHAT'S GOING ON, AND WHAT CAN BE
DONE TO KEEP COMMUNITIES SAFE?
HERE FOR MORE:
LOUIS MARCH, FOUNDER OF ZERO GUN
VIOLENCE MOVEMENT HERE IN THE GTA...

Louis is in his late forties, with a trimmed beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray shirt and a black cap.

Nam continues AND JOOYOUNG LEE: ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO AND THE
MUNK SCHOOL OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS'
AND PUBLIC POLICY.

Jooyoung is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short black hair faded at the temples. He's wearing a dark blue suit and a spotted white shirt.

Nam continues WELCOME.
IT'S NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE, BOTH
OF YOU HERE AND TO MEET YOU.
UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, IT'S
NOT GREAT, BUT LOOKING FORWARD
TO YOUR INSIGHTS.
SO BEFORE WE START TALKING ABOUT
WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN THE GTA
WITH THE GUN VIOLENCE, LET'S
TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THE
NUMBERS.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Shootings by year to date."

Bar chart appears that shows the number of shootings and the number of victims per year, from 2014 to 2019. Both numbers have increased steadily, from 113 shootings and 141 victims, to 267 shootings and 401 victims.

Nam reads data from the slate and says
THE NUMBER OF SHOOTINGS TOO DATE
IN TORONTO THIS YEAR AND HOW IT
COMPARES TO OTHER YEARS.
AS OVER A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, WE
HAD 267 SHOOTING INCIDENTS WITH
401 PEOPLE SHOT.
IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WAS
HAPPENING BY THIS TIME OF YEAR
IN PREVIOUS YEARS, IN 2014, WE
SAW 113 SHOOTING INCIDENTS WITH
141 VICTIMS, AND YOU CAN SEE HOW
THAT HAS STEADILY CLIMBED IN THE
YEARS SINCE AND WHY MANY ARE
CALLING THIS ANOTHER SUMMER OF
THE GUN.
AND IN THAT SUMMER OF THE GUN,
IN 2005, AT THIS POINT OF THE
SUMMER THERE HAD BEEN 169
SHOOTINGS AND 244 VICTIMS.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THOSE
FAMILIES IMPACTED AND ALL THAT
PAIN AND THE VIOLENCE, I WOULD
LIKE TO GET YOUR... BOTH OF YOUR
OPINIONS ON WHY WE ARE SEEING
THIS SPIKE IN GUN VIOLENCE.
LOUIS, I WOULD LIKE TO START
WITH YOU.

The caption changes to "Louis March. Zero Gun Violence Movement."
Then, it changes again to "Déjà vu?"

Louis says I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
RECOGNIZE THAT THIS DID NOT
HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.
IT'S BEEN TRENDING OUTWARD FOR
THE LAST FIVE YEARS.
IN 2013 WE SAW 22 HOMICIDES DUE
TO GUN VIOLENCE.
22.
LAST YEAR WE HAD 51.
IT DIDN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.
IT'S BEEN TRENDING THAT WAY FOR
THE LAST FIVE YEARS, AND WE HAVE
NOT RESPONDED APPROPRIATELY.
AND THAT'S WHY IT'S NOT A
SURPRISE TO US.
WHAT IS A SURPRISE TO US IS...
SO WHAT HAS CHANGED THIS YEAR IS
THE NUMBER OF SHOOTINGS, BUT THE
SHOOTINGS ARE NOT TAKING PLACE
IN TRADITIONAL AREAS

NAM SAYS WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

Louis says IT'S SPILLING OVER INTO THE
SAFE ZONES.
WE HAVE NEVER SEEN SHOOTINGS IN
PLAYGROUNDS.
NOW WE'RE SEEING THAT.
IN BROAD DAYLIGHT WE HAVE SEEN
LIMITED INSTANCES OF THAT BROAD
DAYLIGHT.
NOW WE'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN ON A
REGULAR BASIS.
EVEN THE CHIEF WAS SPEAKING AT
ONE TIME THERE WAS A SHOOTING
TAKING PLACE AT 230 PARLIAMENT
COURT.
SO WE'RE SEEING THAT.
WE'RE SEEING ALSO THE CALIBRE OF
GUNS BEING USED FROM HANDGUNS TO
SEMI-AUTOMATICS.

NAM SAYS THAT WAS IN 2005?

Louis says IN 2005 AND PREVIOUSLY.
NOW WE'RE SEEING CASES WHERE ONE
OR TWO GUNS THEMSELVES, BUT IT'S
NOT A HANDGUN.
IT'S A SEMI-AUTOMATIC.
THERE WERE RESTRICTIONS ON HOW
YOU... INTERNAL REGULATION AND
USING GUNS IN THE PAST.
RIGHT NOW THERE'S A BRAZENNESS
OF THE SHOOTINGS.

NAM SAYS SO YOU MEAN THERE IS A
CODE.

Louis says THERE WAS A CODE.
WE WORK WITH MOTHERS WHO HAVE
LOST CHILDREN TO GUN VIOLENCE,
AND WE ALSO WORK WITH THOSE WHO
HAVE DONE THE CRIME AND DONE THE
TIME AND WANT TO MAKE THE
DIFFERENCE.
THEY TELL US STRAIGHT UP, WE
DIDN'T WANT THE TENSION ON OUR
TERRITORY OR BUSINESS.
THERE WAS SOME REGULATION OR
CODE.
RIGHT NOW THE BRAZENNESS OF THE
SHOOTINGS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, THE
TARGETS, EVEN THE TARGETS ARE
NOW CHANGING.
IT'S NOT LIKE ME AND YOU HAVING
A BEEF AND I'M GOING TO SETTLE
IT WITH YOU.
I MIGHT GO AFTER YOUR RELATIVE,
YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR
NEIGHBOURHOOD.
SO THESE THINGS HAVE BEEN
CHANGING OVER THE PERIOD OF
TIME, AND THE INFLUENCE OF
SOCIAL MEDIA WHERE YOU CAN BRAG,
BOAST, CELEBRATE, THREATEN, RIGHT?
WE DON'T EVEN CALL IT SOCIAL
MEDIA ANYMORE.
WE CALL IT FOREVER MEDIA,
BECAUSE THESE MESSAGES STAY OUT
THERE AND THEY HAVE TO RESPOND.
SO WE SEE THESE CHANGES WHERE,
AGAIN, IT DID NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

NAM SAYS WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK
TO SOME OF THE POINTS YOU
RAISED, BUT I WANT TO GET YOUR
VIEW ON WHY WE'RE SEEING THIS
SPIKE IN GUN VIOLENCE IN TORONTO
THIS SUMMER.

The caption changes to "Jooyoung Lee. University of Toronto."

Jooyoung says WELL, LIKE LOUIS, I THINK THE
IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE IS THIS
ISN'T SOMETHING THAT'S JUST A
ONE-OFF.
LIKE IF WE GO BACK FIVE YEARS,
YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN INJURED THIS YEAR
IS MORE THAN DOUBLE WHAT IT WAS
IN 2014, AND 2015 ONWARD THERE'S
BEEN THIS UPWARD TREND.
THIS TO ME AS A SOCIOLOGIST
SUGGESTS THE UNDERLYING
CONDITIONS THAT GIVE RISE TO GUN
VIOLENCE IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES
HAVE NOT CHANGED.

NAM SAYS WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE CONDITIONS?

The caption changes to "Jooyoung Lee. Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy."

Jooyoung says WE TALK ABOUT URBAN POVERTY.
WE TALK ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM
THAT LIMITS THE OPPORTUNITIES OF
BLACK AND INDIGENOUS YOUTH IN
CANADA.
YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
DIFFERENT STRUCTURAL FACTORS
THAT GIVE RISE TO SHOOTINGS IN
CERTAIN COMMUNITIES AND MAKE
CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS MUCH MORE
LIKELY TO BECOME A SHOOTER OR A
VICTIM IN A GUN CRIME.
THE OTHER THING I WOULD PUT OUT
THERE TOO IS WHEN WE LOOK AT THE
NUMBER OF VICTIMS, WE'RE
TYPICALLY TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN SHOT.
BUT THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF
VICTIMS, PEOPLE WHO ARE
TRAUMATIZED AND NEGATIVELY
AFFECTED BY GUN VIOLENCE IS MUCH
LARGER THAN THE DEATH COUNTS
THAT WE SEE IN THE NEWS OR THE
NUMBER OF INJURIES THAT WE SEE,
YOU KNOW, IN THE TORONTO POLICE
DATA.
THERE ARE FAMILY MEMBERS WHO
HAVE BECOME CARETAKERS WHO ARE
ALSO VICTIMS OF GUN VIOLENCE
BECAUSE THEY SEE AND FEEL THE
TRAUMA THAT THEIR LOVED ONES' GO
THROUGH.
THERE ARE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
MEMBERS, CO-WORKERS.
THERE'S A WHOLE WIDER NETWORK OF
PEOPLE WHO ARE NEGATIVELY
IMPACTED BY GUN VIOLENCE, SO
THOSE NUMBERS ARE TROUBLING, BUT
THEY'RE EVEN MORE TROUBLING WHEN
WE PUT THEM INTO A LARGER
CONTEXT.

NAM SAYS WE WERE MENTIONING THE
SUMMER OF THE GUN 2005.
SO IF THERE WAS A YOUNG'UN WHO
WAS BORN 2005, NOW THEY WOULD BE
ABOUT 14, 15.
AND IF YOU GREW UP IN THAT KIND
OF ENVIRONMENT, THEN YOU HAVE
BEEN EXPOSED TO THAT
ENVIRONMENT.
DO YOU THINK THAT WE DO ENOUGH
TO ADDRESS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
IMPACTED BY THE TRAUMA?

The caption changes to "Jooyoung Lee, @theyoungjoo."

Jooyoung says I DON'T THINK SO, AND I THINK
THE NUMBERS ARE REALLY SPEAKING
FOR THEMSELVES.
YOU KNOW, WE HEAR STORIES EVERY
YEAR OF THE GOVERNMENT, FEDERAL,
LOCAL, DEDICATING FUNDING TO
SUPPORT COMMUNITY-BASED
ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE ON THE
GROUND WORKING WITH COMMUNITY
MEMBERS WHO ARE DEALING WITH
THIS.
BUT THIS CAN'T BE JUST LIKE A
ONE-OFF THING.
THIS HAS TO BE A SUSTAINED,
COMMITTED RESPONSE TO REBUILDING
A SOCIETY WHERE THESE THINGS
DON'T HAPPEN BECAUSE THE REALITY
IS THAT WHENEVER WE TALK ABOUT
REDUCING GUN VIOLENCE, WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT THE AFTERMATH OF A
SHOOTING THAT'S HAPPENED OR A
STRING OF SHOOTINGS THAT'S
HAPPENED.
AND AS A SOCIAL SCIENTIST THAT
KIND OF COMES AT THIS WITH A
PUBLIC HEALTH LENS, I ALWAYS
THINK WHY DO WE WAIT UNTIL THIS
STUFF HAPPENS?
WHY NOT CREATE A SOCIETY WHERE
THE MOST AT-RISK ARE NOT LIKELY
TO GET INVOLVED IN SITUATIONS
WHERE THEY COULD BECOME A VICTIM
OR AN OFFENDER?
WHY NOT CREATE A SOCIETY FULL OF
SAFETY NETS THAT DEFLECTS AND
FUNNELS AT-RISK YOUTH INTO OTHER
ACTIVITIES THAT COULD HELP THEM
AVOID THESE KINDS OF SITUATIONS.

The caption changes to "Louis March, @LouisMarchTO."

Louis says I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER
POINT, AND I WANT TO JUST...
WHAT MY FRIEND SAID.
WE'RE ALL VICTIMS OF GUN
VIOLENCE.
THERE'S THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN
SHOT, WITNESSED AND ARE
TRAUMATIZED.
WHOLE COMMUNITIES NOW ARE
VICTIMS.
THE CITY IS.
PEOPLE KNOW WHEN THEY HEAR NOISE
ON THE STREET, THEY'RE THINKING
GUNSHOTS.
THEY DIDN'T USE TO THINK THAT
FIVE YEARS AGO.
SO THERE'S A FEAR AND DESPAIR IN
THE CITY THAT IS GROWING AS THE
VIOLENCE INCREASES AND WE DO NOT
RESPOND TO IT.
SO WE ALL IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR
FORM, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT,
ARE NOW VICTIMS OF GUN VIOLENCE.
AND I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT
IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE TO
REALIZE THAT THERE'S A SENSE OF
URGENCY ABOUT DEALING WITH THIS.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

NAM SAYS I HEAR A LOT OF EMOTION
IN YOUR VOICE, AND I KNOW YOU
WORK ON THE GROUND WITH FAMILIES
THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY THIS.

Louis says YES.

NAM SAYS WHAT'S YOUR BIGGEST
FRUSTRATION WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
GUN VIOLENCE?

Louis says NOBODY IS BORN WITH A GUN IN
THEIR HAND.
NOBODY IS BORN SAYING THAT THEY
WANT TO BE A GANG MEMBER OR DRUG
DEALER OR WHATEVER.
THERE'S A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS,
RIGHT, THAT TAKE PLACE.
WHAT BOTHERS ME THE MOST IS THAT
FOR THE 51 PEOPLE THAT LOST
THEIR LIVES TO GUN VIOLENCE LAST
YEAR, HOW MANY COULD HAVE BEEN
PREVENTED IF WE HAD FOCUSED OUR
EFFORTS UPFRONT INSTEAD OF AT
THE BACKEND?
WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH AT THE
UPFRONT.
WE KNOW THERE'S A DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN LIVING IN ROSEDALE AND
REXDALE.
WHAT IS GOING ON IN ROSEDALE
WHERE VIOLENCE IS NOT YOUR
NORMAL DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITY?
BUT YOU LIVE IN REXDALE, YOU
BETTER BE CONCERNED.
SO WE KNOW THE CHARACTERISTICS.
WE KNOW WHAT IT TAKES.
WHY AREN'T WE DOING MUCH BETTER
AT CLOSING THAT GAP AND MAKING
SURE THAT WHAT'S WORKING IN
ROSEDALE THAT WE TRANSFER THEM
OVER TO REXDALE, AND IT MEANS
EARLY INTERVENTION.
IT MEANS MASSIVE INTERVENTION,
AND THERE'S NO POLITICAL LEADER
THAT HAS THAT ON THEIR AGENDA IN
TERMS OF DOING THIS.
THIS IS THE THING THAT CONCERNS ME.

NAM SAYS DO WE KNOW WHERE THE
GUNS ARE COMING FROM, JOOYOUNG?

Jooyoung says THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.
FOR MANY YEARS WHAT WE'VE RELIED
UPON IS DATA BY LOCAL POLICE
DEPARTMENTS THAT SUBMIT SEIZED
GUNS TO TRACES IN COLLABORATION
WITH ATF, AND HISTORICALLY THOSE
TRACES HAVE COME BACK AND
THEY'VE FOUND THAT THE MAJORITY
OF FIREARMS USED IN CRIMES ARE
COMING FROM THE U.S.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WE ALSO HAVE
IN RECENT YEARS OTHER POLICE
DEPARTMENTS THAT HAVE SUBMITTED
TRACES, AND THEY ARE REPORTING,
AT LEAST PUBLICLY, THAT A HIGHER
PROPORTION ARE NOW COMING FROM
CANADA, BUT THE SHORT ANSWER OF
IT ALL IS THAT WE DON'T REALLY
KNOW.
WE DON'T HAVE A VERY ROBUST,
SYSTEMATIC DATABASE OF CRIME
GUNS IN CANADA, AND THAT'S A
REAL PROBLEM, BECAUSE ANY
DISCUSSION ABOUT POLICIES AROUND
CONTROLLING FIREARMS AND THE
FLOW OF ELICIT FIREARMS HAS TO
IDENTIFY WHERE THEY'RE COMING
FROM.
SO WE HAVE THESE SORT OF PARTIAL
PICTURES IN PLACE AND NO REAL
NATIONAL NATION-WIDE SYSTEMATIC
DATABASE TO REALLY TRACK IT.

Louis says THE DATA THAT WE'RE HEARING
IS INCONSISTENT AND INCOMPLETE AT BEST.
WE DON'T HAVE A NATIONAL
DATABASE THAT IS ACCURATE, AND
EVEN WHEN THEY FEED INFORMATION
OUT, THE INFORMATION IS NOT
TRUE.
LIKE, WE'VE HEARD THE CHIEF OF
POLICE SAY THAT IT WAS
FIFTY-FIFTY DOMESTIC VERSUS
COMING FROM ACROSS THE BORDER.
THE RCMP ARE SAYING SOMETHING'S
WRONG WITH THAT, RIGHT?
BECAUSE THE FIFTY-FIFTY THAT HE
SPEAKS ABOUT IS THE FIFTY-FIFTY
THAT THEY CAN RECOGNIZE AND
TRACE, BUT THERE'S OUT OF 100
GUNS, SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IF
THERE'S SAY FIFTY-FIFTY, WE'RE
SAYING FIFTY FROM THE STATES,
FIFTY DOMESTIC, RIGHT?
BUT THERE'S ONLY OF THE FIFTY
THAT THEY CAN IDENTIFY.
THE OTHER FIFTY, THE NUMBERS,
THE TRACKING IS GONE, RIGHT?
BUT RECENTLY THE CHIEF HAS SAID
80-20, 80 percent FROM THE STATES, 20 percent
DOMESTIC.
THE NUMBERS KEEP CHANGING.

NAM SAYS AND IN ORDER TO CONFRONT
THE PROBLEM, I THINK YOU NEED
THE DATA TO FIGURE OUT WHAT...

Louis says SO WE CAN TELL HOW MANY ARE
STOPPED AT THE BORDER OR HOW
MANY WAS FOUND AT CRIME SCENES,
BUT WE CAN'T TELL HOW MANY GOT
THROUGH.

NAM SAYS WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR
THESE SHOOTINGS?
WE'VE HEARD GANGS MENTIONED A
COUPLE TIMES THROUGH THE MEDIA.
JOOYOUNG?

Jooyoung says THAT'S WHAT STATS CANADA
SUGGESTS, AND I HAVE SOME ISSUES
WITH THE WAYS THAT THOSE KIND OF
CLASSIFICATIONS HAPPEN.

NAM SAYS WHY DO YOU HAVE ISSUES?

Jooyoung says A LOT OF TIMES THE GANG MAN
KERR, THAT LABEL, IS A...
MONIKER, THAT LABEL IS A
CONVENIENT WAY OF TRYING TO
EXPLAIN VERY COMPLEX SOCIAL
SITUATIONS THAT LEAD TO
VIOLENCE.
IT'S OFTEN USED AS A QUICK HAND
FOR DESCRIBING GUN VIOLENCE
WITHIN BLACK AND INDIGENOUS
COMMUNITIES.
IT'S SORT OF A QUICK HAND WAY OF
DESCRIBING THAT.
A LOT OF TIMES, YOU KNOW, THE
POLICE DATA, FOR ONE, DOESN'T
PARSE THROUGH THE NUANCE OF A
PERSON WHO'S REALLY INVOLVED IN
THE STREETS VERSUS SOMEBODY
WHO'S AN AFFILIATE WHO MAY HAVE
GROWN UP WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE IN
A GANG, FRIENDLY WITH A GANG,
BUT NOT AN ACTIVE MEMBER.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S KIND OF A
BROAD BRUSH THAT WE USE TO
DESCRIBE COMMUNITIES OF COLOUR
AS INVOLVED IN GANG VIOLENCE.
AND WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN WE DO
THAT IS WE END UP WITH THESE
KIND OF STEREOTYPES ABOUT IF YOU
GOT SHOT YOU MUST HAVE BEEN IN A
GANG.
YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DRUG DEALING.
YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DOING SOL
ILLICIT, BUT IF YOU TALK TO
PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING SHOT IN
THESE COMMUNITIES, YOU FIND A
LOT OF THEM ARE SIMPLY IN THE
WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

NAM SAYS BUT WHO'S SHOOTING THEM,
THEN, IF IT'S NOT GANGS?

Louis says IT'S AN EGO BOOST OF SAYING I
WAS PART OF A GANG.
PEOPLE ARE SAYING I WAS PART OF
A GANG, BUT IT'S A LOOSE
AFFILIATION.

NAM SAYS SO THEY'RE LYING?

Louis says THEY'RE NOT LYING, BUT THEY
INTERPRET IT AS BEING PART OF A
GANG, AND ALSO THE POLICE HAVE
THIS TENDENCY TO STEREOTYPE AND
SO ON SO THEY CAN IDENTIFY
WHAT'S GOING ON.
IF WE STICK TO GANG PEOPLE, THEY
ARE SAYING THAT GANGS ARE ABOUT
STRUCTURE.
IT'S ABOUT ROLES, RIGHT?
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS A
LOOSE AFFILIATION, A FRIEND OF A
FRIEND, PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER
TO PROTECT TERRITORY.
BECAUSE THE ACCESS TO GUNS IS
THERE, HAVING A GUN NOW IS NOT
ABOUT SHOWING AND TELLING TO GET
THE EGO BOOST.
YOU HAVE TO USE IT.
YOU HAVE TO USE IT.
SO THEY WILL USE IT TO DEFEND
THEIR TERRITORY, FOR THE EGO
BOOST, RIGHT?
THEY WILL USE IT FOR
RETALIATION, RIGHT?
SO IT'S NOT GANGS, PER SE.
PUTTING IT IN A BOX.
IT'S DISINGENUOUS.

NAM SAYS SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S
NOT NECESSARILY A CHOICE, THAT
IT'S SOMETHING THAT SOME OF
THESE KIDS ARE... THAT THEY HAVE TO DO?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Louis says THEY HAVE TO... AND CHIEF
SPOKE ABOUT THAT RECENTLY.
IT STARTS OFF HAVING A GUN TO
PROTECT MYSELF BECAUSE WHEN YOU
LIVE IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES,
SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO CARRY TO
PROTECT.
BUT THEN IT ESCALATES INTO OTHER
THINGS OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.
THE CHIEF IS ON THE BALL BECAUSE
HE MENTIONED THAT, SO HE'S
AWARE, BUT IF WE DON'T DISCUSS
THE PROBLEM IN... WE WILL NEVER
COME UP WITH A SOLUTION, AND AT
LEAST I'VE SEEN THE CHIEF NOW
SORT OF IDENTIFYING THE ISSUES
THAT MY FRIEND HERE IS SPEAKING
ABOUT.

NAM SAYS YEAH, THE TORONTO POLICE
CHIEF, MARK SAUNDERS, HAS
HIMSELF SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO
ARREST OUR WAY OUT OF THIS.
IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT ISN'T BEING
DONE THAT SHOULD BE DONE TO CURB
GUN VIOLENCE?

The caption changes to "Looking for a fix."

Jooyoung says THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUOTE.
IT'S SPEAKING TO THE HEART OF
WHAT WE'RE BOTH TALKING ABOUT
TODAY, WHICH IS IF WE RELY ON A
POLICE RESPONSE TO GUN VIOLENCE,
THEN WE'VE FAILED.
WE'RE BASICALLY WAITING AND
ACCEPTING THE FACT THAT THERE
ARE GOING TO BE DISPROPORTIONATE
NUMBER OF SHOOTINGS IN
DISADVANTAGED COMMUNITIES, AND
THEN OUR RESPONSE IS JUST GOING
TO BE LET'S ARREST PEOPLE AND
PUT THEM IN PRISON.
THAT'S NOT A SUSTAINABLE GAME
PLAN.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS EVER
BEEN SHOWN TO LEAD TO
SUSTAINABLE REDUCTIONS IN GUN
VIOLENCE.
WE HAVE TO REALLY ATTACK IT
EARLY ON, AS MY FRIEND WAS
MENTIONING.
WE HAVE TO REALLY INVEST
RESOURCES IN THE COMMUNITIES
THAT REALLY NEED THEM.
WE NEED TO SUPPORT YOUTH WHO ARE
MORE AT RISK OF BECOMING A
VICTIM OR A SHOOTER.
AND CREATE A SOCIETY, AGAIN,
WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE NOT GONNA
BE JOINING GANGS, GETTING
INVOLVED IN SITUATIONS WHERE
THEY MIGHT HAVE TO GET A
FIREARM.
LIKE, THAT'S THE KIND OF
PROGRESSIVE VISION THAT WE SEE
WORKING IN SO MANY NATIONS
AROUND THE WORLD.
AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT CANADA
SHOULD ADOPT AS WELL.

Louis says I'M GOING TO SAY SOMETHING...
ALSO.
THE CHIEF HAS SAID THIS BEFORE.
THIS IS 2019.
HE SAID IT IN 2018.
HE DID IT IN 2017.
WE CANNOT ARREST OUR SELF OUT OF
THIS PROBLEM.
WE NEED TO INVEST IN
COMMUNITIES.
HE'S MADE IT CLEAR, BUT NOBODY
HAS RESPONDED.
SO HIM SAYING IT IN 2019, HOW
MANY MORE TIMES DOES HE HAVE TO
SAY THIS, RIGHT?
WE HAVE A... THAT TAKES 25 MILLION dollars OUT OF AFTER-SCHOOL PROGRAMS AND GIVES IT TO THE POLICE.

NAM SAYS YESTERDAY THE MAYOR
ANNOUNCED 4.5 MILLION dollars OF
ADDITIONAL FUNDING FROM ALL
THREE LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT TO
COMBAT GUN VIOLENCE IN THE CITY.
HOW COULD THAT MONEY HELP?
BEFORE I GET TO THAT QUESTION,
WHY... YOU DON'T...

Louis says NO, THIS, THIS, THIS... THIS
IS A FAMILY SHOW, SO I'M GOING
TO KEEP IT PROPER.
THIS IS INACCURATE AT BEST.

NAM SAYS HOW SO?

Louis says THE 4.5 HE SPEAKS ABOUT,
FIRST OF ALL, WHEN THE PREMIER
BECAME PREMIER, HE DECIDED TO
TAKE 25 MILLION OUT OF
AFTER-SCHOOL PROGRAMS AND GIVE
IT TO THE POLICE.
BUT WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT MONEY.
SO THE 1.5 THAT EACH ONE OF THE
LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT IS TALKING
ABOUT, THAT 1.5 IS PART OF THAT
25 MILLION THAT WAS ANNOUNCED
MONTHS AGO.
THE CITY'S SUPPOSED TO PUT IN
1.5.
WHEN JOHN TORY WAS RUNNING FOR
MAYOR, HE SAID I WILL MATCH THE
25 MILLION FROM THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT, I WILL GIVE ONE
THIRD TO POLICE AND TWO THIRDS
WILL GO TO INVESTING IN
COMMUNITY, FAMILIES AND YOUTH.
WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT MONEY.

NAM SAYS ARE YOU SAYING HE'S
BEING DISINGENUOUS?

Louis says OF COURSE, BECAUSE NOW HE HAS
TO WAIT UNTIL THEY COME BACK IN
SEPTEMBER TO VOTE ON HIS MOTION
FOR THE 1.5.
HE MADE A COMMITMENT WHEN HE WAS
RUNNING FOR MAYOR.
THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HAVE COME
THROUGH IS THE FEDS WHO 1.5 IS
NEW MONEY THAT THEY ARE PUTTING
ON THE TABLE.

NAM SAYS SOME PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE
THAT THERE'S A FEDERAL ELECTION
COMING UP, SO MAYBE THAT MIGHT
BE... THEY MIGHT BE MOTIVATED
BECAUSE OF THE ELECTION IN OCTOBER.

Louis says WE'LL TAKE WHATEVER MONEY WE
CAN GET, WE WILL TAKE.
BUT THAT'S REAL MONEY THAT CAN
BE SPENT, THAT CAN BE UTILIZED.
AGAIN, ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO
POLICING.
HAS ANYBODY SPOKEN ANT THE
SOCIO-ECONOMIC CONDITIONS WITH
THAT 4.5?
AND 4.5, WHAT IS THAT GOING TO DO?
THE BUDGET FOR THE...

NAM SAYS WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE IT TO GO?

Louis says WE HAVE TO LITERALLY INVEST
IN COMMUNITIES.
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT, IN
FAMILIES AND IN YOUTH
PROGRAMMING.
WE SAW DECLINE FROM 52 HOMICIDES
IN 2005 DOWN TO 23 BECAUSE THERE
WAS AN INJECTION, INFUSION OF
MONEY INTO YOUTH PROGRAMMING.
WHEN THAT MONEY EXPIRED, RIGHT,
WE SAW THE TREND GOING BACK UP.
WE NEED TO LOOK AT COMMUNITY
INVESTMENT.
COMMUNITIES ARE NOT
UNDER-PROGRAMMED.
THEY ARE POORLY.
THE MONEY IS NOT BEING SPENT
WISELY AND EFFECTIVELY.

NAM SAYS SPECIFICALLY, AFTER THE
SUMMER OF THE GUN, YOU SAY GUN
VIOLENCE WENT DOWN.

Louis says YES.

NAM SAYS HOW DID INVESTMENT IN
THE COMMUNITY HELP TO DO THAT?

Louis says THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT PUT
I THINK 41 MILLION dollars ON THE TABLE
FOR THE YOUTH CHALLENGE FUND.
AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
INVESTED IN YOUTH PROGRAMMING,
RUN BY YOUTH.
I CAN'T SAY BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE
THE EVIDENCE, BUT AS THAT MONEY
WAS BEING ROLLED OUT AND
PROBLEMS WERE DOWN, YOUTH WERE
MORE ENGAGED IN POSITIVE
ACTIVITIES.
AND IT WAS RUN BY YOUTH.
RIGHT?
BUT THAT MONEY ALL HAD AN EXPIRY
DATE ON IT.
SO WE'VE SEEN THAT MONEY DRYING
UP, BUT THERE WAS NEVER A
SECONDARY INFUSION, TO CONTINUE
IT.
IT SPEAKS ABOUT SUSTAINABLE
FUNDING.
WE DON'T HAVE THAT.
SO THE PROGRAM'S DRIED UP, AND
ALL OF A SUDDEN WE SAW THE
CULTURE OF VIOLENCE CHANGE, OF
GUN VIOLENCE CHANGE.

NAM SAYS AND THE UPTICK CONTINUES.

Louis says AND THERE WAS NOTHING TO COUNTER IT.

NAM SAYS THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE
THAT MAYOR TORY HAS SUGGESTED,
AND HE'S CALLED FOR A GUN BAN IN
TORONTO.
JOOYOUNG, WOULD SUCH A BAN HELP
TO KEEP GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF KIDS?

Jooyoung says THIS IS A WELL-INTENTIONED
CALL BY THE MAYOR, BUT YOU KNOW,
LOCAL, PROVINCIAL GUN BANS ARE
NOT VERY EFFECTIVE, AT LEAST IN
TERMS OF THE SOCIAL SCIENCE ON
THE TOPIC.

NAM SAYS HOW ARE THEY NOT EFFECTIVE?

Jooyoung says I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE FROM
CALIFORNIA, WHICH IS WHERE I'M FROM.
THE GILROY GARLIC FESTIVAL
SHOOTER WENT TO NEVADA, BOUGHT
HIS FIREARM THERE AND RETURNED
TO CALIFORNIA TO COMMIT THE
VIOLENCE.
THERE ARE TOO MANY DIFFERENT
WAYS TO CIRCUMVENT LOCAL AND
PROVINCIAL-LEVEL BANS AND
RESTRICTIONS.
PEOPLE CAN JUST GO ELSEWHERE.
THE ONLY EXAMPLES THAT WE HAVE
OF GUN BANS REALLY WORKING ARE
AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, YOU KNOW,
AUSTRALIA, AFTER 1996, PASSED A
FEDERAL BAN ON... A RESTRICTION
ON LONG RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS, AND
THEY SAW... THEY'VE SEEN A 72 percent
DECREASE IN THAT TIME IN
FIREARM-RELATED DEATHS.
NOW THE DILEMMA OF CANADA,
OBVIOUSLY, IS THAT CANADA SHARES
A BORDER WITH THE UNITED STATES,
WHICH IS AN OUTLIER IN TERMS OF
GUN OWNERSHIP AND GUN
CONSUMPTION, RIGHT?
SO...

Louis says AND INTRODUCTION.

Jooyoung says YES, SO ANYTHING THAT WE TALK
ABOUT WITH RESPECT TO CANADIAN
FEDERAL LEVEL POLICY ALSO HAS TO
CONTEND WITH THE FACT THAT
CANADA SHARES A BORDER WITH MANY
STATES IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE
MUCH LOOSER GUN LAWS, AND PEOPLE
CAN STILL GET THEM THERE.
SO CITY-WIDE BAN IS NOT
NECESSARILY GOING TO BE VERY
EFFECTIVE.

NAM SAYS AND ALSO I THINK THE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE PERMITS AND
PROBABLY WOULD NOT WANT THAT TO
HAPPEN.
THE PREMIER ALSO PLEDGED MONEY
WITH 1.5 BEING IMMEDIATELY TO
PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND AS YOU
SAID.
DOES INCREASED POLICE STAFF,
ESPECIALLY IN COMMUNITIES THAT
ARE SEEING GUN VIOLENCE, MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

Jooyoung says IN THE SHORT TERM SOMETIMES,
BUT AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A
LONG-TERM WINNING STRATEGY, AND
THE BIGGEST PROBLEM OF THIS
STRATEGY IS THAT ONE THING THAT
ENDS UP HAPPENING WHEN YOU JUST
THROW MONEY INTO LAW
ENFORCEMENT, INTO COMMUNITIES
THAT ARE AT RISK, YOU SEE, YOU
KNOW, A BREAKDOWN IN THE
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN COMMUNITY
MEMBERS AND THE POLICE.
AND THIS IS ALREADY A STRAINED
RELATIONSHIP IN MANY COMMUNITIES
ACROSS TORONTO, AND IN PART,
THAT'S WHY IT'S VERY DIFFICULT
FOR THE POLICE TO INVESTIGATE
SHOOTINGS THAT HAPPEN IN THE
FIRST PLACE BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL
AS IF THEY'RE BEING MONITORED
AND SURVEILLED AND HARASSED IN
THESE COMMUNITIES.
AND THEY ARE LESS LIKELY TO TALK
TO POLICE WHEN SHOOTINGS OCCUR.
JUST SAYING WE'RE GOING TO PUT
MORE BOOTS ON THE GROUND IS NOT
NECESSARILY A STRATEGY THAT
WOULD WORK, EITHER OVER THE LONG HAUL.

Louis says AND IT CANNOT WORK IN ISOLATION.
YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT BANNING
GUNS IF YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT
BANNING POVERTY AND
SOCIO-ECONOMIC CONDITIONS.
THEY GO HAND IN HAND, RIGHT?
THERE'S A DEMAND FOR GUNS
BECAUSE PEOPLE LIVE IN
NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT ARE VIOLENT.
AND WHENEVER THERE IS POVERTY,
THERE IS VIOLENCE.
SO WHEN YOU LIVE IN THOSE
CONDITIONS, YOU HAVE TO DEFEND
YOURSELF.
THERE'S A DEMAND NOR GUNS.
THE GUNS WILL COME ACROSS THE
BORDER.
SO WHEN WE SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE
INVOLVED IN GANGS AND STUFF,
THEY ARE TELLING US THAT BANNING
GUNS IS NOT GOING TO STOP US
FROM GETTING ACCESS TO OUR GUNS,
RIGHT?
IT LOOKS GOOD BECAUSE IT'S A
LEVEL OF FEAR AND DESPAIR IN THE
CITY, SO I AS MAYOR, HERE, THIS
IS WHAT WE'RE DOING, BANNING
GUNS.
WE'RE CALLING FOR THAT.
IT'S A FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY.
MR. MAYOR, YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
ARE SOCIO-ECONOMIC.
FOCUS ON THAT.
THE FEDS WILL COME THROUGH IN
TERMS OF RESTRICTING IT.
THAT WILL PLAY OUT.
THERE WILL BE A ROBUST PROGRAM
POLICY LEGISLATION ABOUT MAKING
IT MORE DIFFICULT TO GET ACCESS
TO GUNS, BUT MR. MAYOR, BANNING
HANDGUNS IS WHISTLING IN THE
WIND.
FOCUS ON THE COMMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT AS
YOU PREVIOUSLY SAID YOU WOULD.

NAM SAYS SO JUMP ON WHAT YOU WERE
SAYING ABOUT SOCIO-ECONOMIC
CONDITIONS, I HEARD AN INTERVIEW
RECENTLY WHERE A YOUNG PERSON
SAID THAT IN THE CITY OF
TORONTO, THE YOUTH FEEL LIKE
THEY ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
BARREL.
DOES IT... IF A YOUNG PERSON
FEELS LIKE THAT FROM A COMMUNITY
THAT'S EXPERIENCING GUN
VIOLENCE, WHAT ROLE DOES THAT
PLAY IN THE BIGGER PICTURE?

The caption changes to "Fighting a losing battle?"

Louis says IT PLAYS A SIGNIFICANT ROLE.
IT PLAYS A SIGNIFICANT ROLE.
SOME OF THE COMMUNITIES IN THE
CITY OF TORONTO IN 2019 ARE
UNDER SIEGE.
THAT MEANS AS SOON AS THE SUN
SETS, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OR
RELUCTANT TO GO OUT BECAUSE THEY
FEAR SOMETHING'S GOING TO
HAPPEN, RIGHT?
THIS IS TORONTO 2019.
WHEN A YOUNG PERSON SEES THAT
LEVEL OF VIOLENCE, IT'S GOING TO
BECOME PART OF THEIR LIFESTYLE,
RIGHT?
WE TALK ABOUT MAKING CHOICES,
MAKING GOOD CHOICES AND BAD
CHOICES.
IF YOUR CHOICES ARE LIMITED AND
YOUR FAMILY, RIGHT, BECOMES THE
GANG.
THE GANGS TALK ABOUT THEIR
RECRUITMENT STRATEGY.
I'M SAYING WHAT?
OH, YEAH, WE KNOW WHO TO
IDENTIFY.
WE KNOW WHO'S STRUGGLING.
WE KNOW HOW TO GIVE THEM A
LITTLE SMILE HERE AND THEN
INCREASE IT AND THEN GIVE THEM
MORE WORK TO DO, RIGHT?
THE GANG PEOPLE HAVE A STRATEGY.
WHAT IS OUR STRATEGY TO KEEP
THEM OUT OF THE GANGS?
WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES THAT
WE'RE PROVIDING?
SO WHEN YOU GROW UP IN THAT
LIFESTYLE WHERE SOMEONE WILL SAY
I FEAR LIVING MORE THAN I FEAR
DYING, WHICH IS A REAL QUOTE,
YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT THEIR
REALITY LOOKS LIKE.

NAM SAYS WELL, IN 2017, THE
ECONOMIST MAGAZINE NAMED TORONTO
AS THE FOURTH SAFEST MAJOR CITY
IN THE WORLD, BUT SOME PEOPLE
LIVING IN COMMUNITIES HAVEN'T FELT SAFE.

Louis says WHEN THEY MADE THAT
STATEMENT, PLEASE QUALIFY.
IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU LIVE.

NAM SAYS THIS IS MY QUESTION.
HOW DOES THE CITY START TO
ADDRESS WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW
WHILE ALSO RE-ESTABLISHING TRUST
WITH THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE
FELT OR FEEL IGNORED.
JOOYOUNG?

Jooyoung says IF WE REALLY WANT TO
ERADICATE THIS PROBLEM, IF WE
REALLY WANT TO REDUCE GUN
VIOLENCE FOR THE LONG HAUL, THEN
WE HAVE TO HAVE A PROGRESSIVE
VISION OF WHAT THE SOCIETY WOULD
LOOK LIKE, AND IT'S A SOCIETY
WHERE THE MOST AT-RISK YOUTH,
AGAIN, ARE SHIELDED FROM THESE
RISK FACTORS THAT ARE MUCH MORE
PREVALENT IN COMMUNITIES, AND WE
CAN ALL NAME THESE COMMUNITIES.
WE KNOW WHERE THESE ISSUES
EXIST, AND THESE STATS THAT ARE,
YOU KNOW, PUT OUT BY THE
ECONOMIST GLOSS OVER, AS MY
FRIEND IS MENTIONING, YOU KNOW,
VARIATION BETWEEN
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
SO JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A
CITY-WIDE HOMICIDE RATE THAT
RANKS PRETTY WELL COMPARED TO
OTHER NORTH AMERICAN CITIES, YOU
HAVE NEIGHBOURHOODS OF DESPAIR
AND PROBLEMS THAT EXIST HERE
THAT ARE MUCH GREATER THAN IN
OTHER PLACES.
SO THE VISION REALLY HAS TO BE
LONG-TERM.
IT HAS TO REALLY ATTACK THE ROOT
CAUSES.
AGAIN, POVERTY, SYSTEMIC RACISM,
YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT
SAFETY NETS HAVE TO BE IN PLACE.
THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN HELP
SHIELD YOUNG PEOPLE FROM GOING
DOWN THAT PATH.

Louis says IT HAS TO BE A LONG-TERM
INVESTMENT.
WE'RE GOING TO BUILD A SUBWAY
SYSTEM.
WE KNOW IT'S GOING TO TAKE TEN
YEARS, RIGHT, BUT WE MADE THAT
COMMITMENT BECAUSE WE KNOW AT
THE END OF THE DAY IT'S GOING TO
MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?
WE NEED TO MAKE A LONG-TERM
INVESTMENT IN OUR COMMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT, RIGHT?
THIS IS NOT A FOUR-YEAR ELECTION
CYCLE OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT?
THIS HAS TO BE A LONG-TERM
INVESTMENT WHERE WE START TODAY
KNOWING THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO
SEE THE RESULTS.
THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO
IMMEDIATELY, OF COURSE, RIGHT?
BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE THAT
LONG-TERM INVESTMENT IN TERMS OF
THESE COMMUNITIES WHERE WE KNOW
VIOLENCE IS LIKELY TO TAKE PLACE.
WE WANT TO TRANSFORM THOSE COMMUNITIES.
SO THAT REXDALE CAN LOOK LIKE ROSEDALE.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

NAM SAYS AND WE'VE RUN OUT OF
TIME, BUT I REALLY APPRECIATE
YOU BOTH BEING HERE AND HELPING
US MAKE... TRYING TO UNDERSTAND
THIS... I KNOW IT'S AFFECTED A
LOT OF PEOPLE IN AND AROUND THE
CITY.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

Jooyoung says THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING US.

Watch: Summer Gun Violence