Transcript: Getting Women to the Top | Jul 10, 2019

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a light gray blazer over a black shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Getting women to the top. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says IN THE PAST FEW DECADES, MORE
WOMEN HAVE FOUND THE PATH TO THE
C-SUITE, AND EVEN TO
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE.
AND YET, ABOUT 50 percent OF THE
POPULATION IS STILL VASTLY
UNDERREPRESENTED IN THE
BOARDROOMS OF THE COUNTRY.
AND SO FAR IN CANADA, NO FEMALE
PREMIER HAS BEEN RE-ELECTED TO A
SECOND TERM.
WHAT'S GOING TO CHANGE THAT?
LET'S ASK.
SYLVIA BASHEVKIN, PROFESSOR
OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, AND
MOST RECENTLY THE EDITOR OF: WOMEN PREMIERS IN CANADA'S PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES.

Sylvia is in her late fifties, with straight chin-length gray hair. She's wearing a pale pink blazer and a black blouse.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover is pale blue, with a red maple leaf partially covered by orange spots resembling pie charts.

Nam continues AND COLLEEN MOOREHEAD,
CHIEF CLIENT OFFICER AT THE
LAW FIRM OSLER, AND EDITOR OF: LEADERSHIP LESSONS FROM THE JUDY PROJECT.

Colleen is in her sixties, with big brown hair. She's wearing a bright pink blazer and blouse, and a pendant necklace.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover is white, blue and green.

Nam continues HI TO YOU BOTH.

Sylvia says HELLO.

Colleen says HI!
COULD I JUST SAY YOU
BOTH LOOK VERY FABULOUS.

SYLVIA SAYS THANK YOU.

NAM SAYS I LOVE THE PINK.

[LAUGHS]

COLLEEN SAYS THANK YOU.

Nam says I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO
LEARNING FROM BOTH YOU.
COLLEEN, LET'S GET
STARTED WITH YOU.
YOUR BOOK HIGHLIGHTS THE
WORK OF THE JUDY PROJECT.
WHAT DOES THE JUDY PROJECT DO?

The caption changes to "Colleen Moorehead. Editor, 'The collective wisdom of high-performing women.'"
Then, it changes again to "The story behind the book."

Colleen says SO THE JUDY PROJECT WAS CREATED
IN MEMORY OR RECOGNITION
OF A WOMAN... JUDY ELDER... WHO WAS
AT MICROSOFT
AND A PHENOMENAL LEADER.
AND...

NAM SAYS WHAT MADE HER SO SPECIAL?
YOU KNOW, SHE DID A SPEECH
AT WXN THREE WEEKS BEFORE SHE
PASSED, AND SHE TALKED ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, COLLECTIVE AMBITION,
AND THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF BEING
AMBITIOUS FOR YOUR TEAM,
YOUR COMPANY.
AND IT WAS
REALLY, REALLY AMAZING.
AND THEN SHE PASSED.
AND FOR ALL OF US...

NAM SAYS SHE WAS
PRETTY YOUNG, RIGHT?

Colleen says SHE WAS; SHE WAS 47 YEARS OLD.
AND I THINK THE THING IS THAT
WE ALL FELT, WORKING IN THE
WORKFORCE, THAT SHE HAD A VOICE
THAT WE WANTED TO MAINTAIN.
SO, WE CREATED A LEADERSHIP
PROGRAM FOR WOMEN REACHING THE
C-SUITE IN 2003.
AND IT HAS BEEN RUNNING
EVERY YEAR EVER SINCE.

Nam says AND WHAT DO YOU... WHAT WOULD
YOU... WHAT DO YOU THINK JUDY'S
LASTING LEGACY IS?

Colleen says I THINK THE CONCEPT OF
VALUE-BASED LEADERSHIP.
AND ALSO THAT IT'S
OK TO BE AMBITIOUS.
AND THIS COLLECTIVE
FORM OF AMBITION... IS REALLY VALUABLE TO
OUR CANADIAN COMPANIES.
I THINK ULTIMATELY,
WE JUST WANT TO MAKE
CANADIAN COMPANIES STRONGER.

Nam says AND SPEAKING FROM A BUSINESS
POINT OF VIEW TO POLITICS,
YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT
PREMIERS... FEMALE PREMIERS ACROSS
THE COUNTRY, THE LACK... WELL,
THE ONES THAT ARE THERE
AND THE LACK OF.
DO YOU FIND THAT WOMEN ARE
AMBITIOUS TO REACH THAT LEVEL
OF BEING IN THAT EXECUTIVE
POSITION IN GOVERNMENT?

The caption changes to "Sylvia Bashevkin. Editor, 'Doing politics differently?"

Sylvia says WELL, THE RESEARCH ON WOMEN IN
POLITICS SHOWS THAT, ON AVERAGE,
WHEN WOMEN BECOME LEGISLATORS,
THEY'RE OFTEN MORE FOCUSED ON
SERVING THEIR
LOCAL CONSTITUENCY... AND LESS ON MOVING UP WITHIN
THEIR PARTIES, OR MOVING UP TO
AN EXECUTIVE CABINET
POSITION, FOR EXAMPLE.

NAM SAYS WHAT IS THE REASON?
WHY IS THAT?

The caption changes to "Sylvia Bashevkin. University of Toronto."

Sylvia says WELL, THEY TEND TO HAVE A
BACKGROUND IN
COMMUNITY LEADERSHIP.
PERHAPS THEY WERE AT THE
FOREFRONT OF GETTING A CROSSING
GUARD IN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT
WHERE THEIR KIDS GO TO SCHOOL.
OR MAYBE THEY WERE WORKING VERY
HARD TO SAVE A LOCAL HOSPITAL.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY BEGIN
OFTEN WITH A FOCUS ON COMMUNITY
LEADERSHIP, WHICH LEADS
THEM INTO PUBLIC LIFE.
THE WOMEN THAT WE STUDY IN THIS
BOOK, AND I WORKED WITH A GROUP
OF ABOUT 12 COLLEAGUES
ACROSS THE COUNTRY
ON THE WOMEN PREMIERS' PROJECT... WE FIND THAT A LOT OF THESE
WOMEN ARE MOVING UP WITHIN THEIR
POLITICAL PARTIES, PERHAPS AT
TIMES WHEN THE PARTIES
ARE IN DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES... AND THE PARTIES ARE IN
NEED OF A LEADER WHO CAN GIVE A
COMPLETELY NEW
IMAGE TO THE PARTY.
BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE
GOING TO CONFUSE A MAN WHO'S
LEAVING WITH A WOMAN COMING IN.
IN MANY CASES, THOSE ARE THE
CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH WOMEN
MOVE UP.
BUT CERTAINLY WOMEN PREMIERS
ARE AMBITIOUS
AND THEY'RE CONFIDENT... BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T GET
TO THIS POINT OF EXECUTIVE
LEADERSHIP IN OUR POLITICAL
SYSTEM IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE
THOSE ATTRIBUTES.

Nam says BUT IF THEY'RE COMING IN A
SITUATION WHERE I GUESS CHANGE
IS NEEDED, IF THEY DO WELL,
FANTASTIC, BUT IF THEY DON'T DO
WELL, WHAT DOES THAT SAY
ABOUT WOMEN IN THAT LEVEL
OF GOVERNMENT?

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE
ARGUMENTS THAT WE MAKE IN THE
BOOK IS IT'S NOT NECESSARILY
HOW WELL THEY DO; IT'S OFTEN THE
IMAGE AND THE EXPECTATIONS AND
PERCEPTIONS THAT WE BRING AS
ANALYSTS AND VOTERS...
TO THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS.
I MEAN, A LOT OF THESE
WOMEN HAVE DONE EXTREMELY WELL.
THEY'VE WON MAJORITY
GOVERNMENTS FOR THEIR PARTIES.
THEY'VE REALLY MOVED
THEIR PARTIES FORWARD.
BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN
THAT THE PEOPLE IN THEIR PARTIES
ARE VERY PATIENT WHEN THINGS
START TO COME APART A BIT.
AND WE ARGUE THAT THE LEVEL OF
IMPATIENCE WITH WOMEN LEADERS IS
CONSIDERABLY GREATER... INCLUDING
WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTIES... THAN
IT IS FOR MEN WHO MAY HAVE
A FEW MISTAKES ON THE WAY.

Nam says WELL, WHEN I WAS READING THE
BOOK, MY EYEBROWS KIND OF SHOT
UP AT THIS PART [CHUCKLES].
AND IN THE BOOK, YOU ASK:
"IS THE CONCEPT OF
LEADERSHIP ITSELF MASCULINE?"
AND WHAT DID YOU
FIND THE ANSWER TO BE?

The caption changes to "The story behind the book."

Sylvia says WELL, CERTAINLY THE IDEAS THAT
WE CARRY AROUND ABOUT LEADERSHIP
AS A COMMANDING STYLE, AS
OPPOSED TO A CONSENSUS-SEEKING
STYLE, IS QUITE INTRIGUING
BECAUSE OFTEN POLITICAL PARTIES
AND WE AS VOTERS... SAY WE NEED
SOMEBODY WHO'S GOING
TO LISTEN MORE... AND THEN WHEN WE GET SOMEONE
WHO'S LISTENING MORE, WE SAY,
"WELL, THE PERSON'S WEAK AND
VACILLATING AND CAN'T MAKE
A DECISION."
SO I THINK THAT THERE ARE VERY
DIFFERING UNDERSTANDINGS THAT WE
CARRY AROUND AT THE SAME TIME
ABOUT WHAT LEADERSHIP MEANS.
AND I THINK IF WE DO WANT MORE
CONSENSUS-BASED AND KIND OF A
COLLECTIVE LEADERSHIP THAT'S
LESS ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL AND
MORE ABOUT THE TEAM, THEN MAYBE
WE NEED TO BECOME A LITTLE MORE
PATIENT WITH THE PROCESSES
THAT ARE INVOLVED
IN GETTING CONSENSUS.

Nam says AND, COLLEEN, HOW DOES THAT
PLAY OUT IN THE CORPORATE WORLD?

The caption changes to "Leading differently?"

Colleen says WELL, I MEAN, I THINK
CORPORATIONS REPRESENT
CANADIANS, AND CANADIANS
ARE DIVERSE AND 50 percent FEMALE.
SO, I THINK ORGANIZATIONS
ARE VERY MUCH LIKE CANADA IS.
AND SO CONSENSUS-BASED IS FAR
MORE IMPORTANT THAN IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN IN WHAT I'D CALL
THE HEROIC LEADERSHIP MODEL,
SO WHERE SOMEONE TELLS YOU
WHAT TO DO VERSUS LISTENS.
AND I THINK WE WANT TO RETAIN
OUR MILLENNIALS AND KEEP THEM
ENGAGED IN OUR COMPANIES THAT
THAT TYPE OF LEADERSHIP... THE
CONSENSUS-BASED LEADERSHIP
STYLE IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT... AS IS THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT
WE TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK,
WHICH IS AUTHENTICITY...
YOU KNOW, COURAGE, TENACITY.
THOSE ARE HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS.
AND THEY'RE ALSO
LEADERSHIP CHARACTERISTICS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

NAM SAYS WELL, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
A PICTURE OF WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE
ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BOTH IN
POLITICS AND IN THE BOARDROOM.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Women leaders in politics and business."

The slate shows that women hold 27 percent of the seats in the House of Commons; 12 first ministers have been female but none has one more than one election; women make up 19.5 percent of the board members for Canada's top 500 companies; 109 out of 500 have no female board members; 8.5 percent of the highest paid positions in Canada's top 100 companies are women; women hold 25 percent of the vice-president positions and 15 percent of CEO positions.

Nam says I'M KIND OF FEELING
DEPRESSED.
[LAUGHS]
WHEN YOU HEAR ALL THOSE NUMBERS,
LIKE HONESTLY,
WHAT EMOTION DO
YOU FEEL, SYLVIA?

Sylvia says WELL, CERTAINLY LOOKING AT THE
POSITION OF WOMEN PREMIERS AND
PRIME MINISTERS, WE KNOW WE'VE
HAD ONE WOMAN FIRST MINISTER
AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.
WE'VE HAD 11 PROVINCIALLY, FOR
A TOTAL OF 12 FIRST MINISTERS.
WE HAVE NONE AT THE MOMENT.
I THINK I TRY AND LOOK AT THE
CURRENT SITUATION AS INSPIRING
FOR ACTION.
BECAUSE THERE'S CERTAINLY
NO BASIS FOR SUGGESTING THAT
THERE'S NO PROBLEM.
IF WOMEN REPRESENT MORE THAN
HALF THE POPULATION, AND WE HAVE
NO WOMEN IN POSITIONS OF
POLITICAL EXECUTIVE LEADERSHIP
RIGHT NOW.

NAM SAYS BUT
REPRESENTATION MATTERS, RIGHT?

SYLVIA SAYS IT CERTAINLY DOES.

Nam says SO IF YOU DON'T SEE YOURSELF,
HOW CAN YOU SAY... HOW CAN YOU
ACTUALLY SEE
YOURSELF IN THAT POSITION?

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK IT'S ABOUT HAVING,
YOU KNOW, POLITICAL PARTIES, AND
WE AS CITIZENS WHO VOTE... TO ACTUALLY PRESSURE OUR
POLITICAL PARTIES TO START DOING
MORE, TO RECRUIT MORE WOMEN, AND
TO OFFER CABINET POSITIONS THAT
ARE ACTUALLY
PATHWAYS TOWARDS POWER.
BECAUSE HISTORICALLY, WE FIND
A LOT OF WOMEN WHO DO GET INTO
CABINET POSITIONS AND OUR
POLITICAL EXECUTIVES ARE
CLUSTERED IN THE
LESS-PRESTIGIOUS PORTFOLIOS.
WE'VE HAD VERY FEW WOMEN,
FOR EXAMPLE,
WHO'VE BEEN
FINANCE MINISTERS.
VERY FEW HAVE BEEN
FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTERS.
THESE HIGH... YOU KNOW, SORT OF
HIGH-CACHET POSITIONS ARE
THE ONES THAT WE NEED TO SEE
MORE OPPORTUNITIES OPENING UP
FOR WOMEN... BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONES
THAT GENERALLY LEAD TO THE
POLITICAL
C-SUITE, LET'S CALL IT.

Nam says WELL, LOOKING AT THAT BOARD THAT
I JUST TALKED ABOUT, ALL THOSE
DIFFERENT NUMBERS, COLLEEN,
HOW... WHAT IS YOUR EMOTION?

Colleen says WELL, I MEAN, I
THINK I'M OPTIMISTIC.
I THINK THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING.
I THINK THAT WE'RE SEEING
LEGISLATION LIKE THE 30 percent,
YOU KNOW, COMPLY OR EXPLAIN
FOR PUBLIC COMPANIES.
I THINK LARGE PUBLIC COMPANIES,
MEN AND WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP
ROLES ARE TAKING THE... THE ISSUE
OF DIVERSITY VERY SERIOUSLY.
AND I ALSO JUST THINK THAT
THE CLIMATE IN THE WORKFORCE
IS CHANGING.
YOUNG PEOPLE WANT A
DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT.
THEY ARE NOT THAT INTERESTED,
AND MAYBE THAT'S 'CAUSE WE
RAISED THEM... BUT THEY ARE NOT
INTO COMMAND AND CONTROL.
THEY WANT TO BE
CONSULTED;
THEY WANT TO BE ENGAGED.
AND I THINK THAT A WOMAN'S
LEADERSHIP STYLE ACTUALLY
SUPPORTS THAT AND PRODUCES A
MORE... A WARMER PLACE TO WORK.

NAM SAYS WELL, I WANT TO GO... I
WANT TO COME BACK TO A WOMAN'S
LEADERSHIP STYLE...

COLLEEN SAYS YEAH...

Nam says BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE HAVE
THIS CONVERSATION, THE USUAL
REBUTTAL IS THAT, "YES, THERE
ARE QUALIFIED WOMEN OUT THERE,
BUT LEADERS SHOULD BE
CHOSEN BASED SOLELY ON MERIT."
IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE A 50 percent
GENDER DIVIDE AND STILL BASE IT
ENTIRELY ON MERIT?
SYLVIA?

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK MERIT IS VERY MUCH
IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER,
RIGHT?
I MEAN, PEOPLE HAVE
VARIOUS UNDERSTANDINGS ON WHAT
CONSTITUTES MERIT.
IT'S OFTEN LINKED TO
FIT IN AN ORGANIZATION.
AND IF THE ORGANIZATION IS
ONE WHICH IS HISTORICALLY NOT
TERRIBLY OPEN TO WOMEN, THEN I
THINK, YOU KNOW, MERIT AND FIT
AND SO ON GET TIED UP IN... IN A
PACKAGE THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY
VERY WELCOMING.
SO I BEGIN WITH A QUESTION OF,
YOU KNOW, HOW... HOW POLITICAL
PARTIES ARE
RECRUITING CANDIDATES.
AND, IN FACT, HOW WE ARE
TREATING THE CANDIDATES WHO ARE
OUT THERE.
SO ONE OF THE CONCERNS
COMING OUT OF THIS STUDY... ABOUT WOMEN PREMIERS, IS THE
FACT THAT WE HAVE HAD TWO WOMEN
PREMIERS RECENTLY... -BOTH IN
ONTARIO, KATHLEEN WYNNE; AND
ALBERTA, RACHEL NOTLEY... WHO'VE
BEEN THE RECIPIENTS OF MORE
THREATS AGAINST THEIR PERSONAL
SAFETY THAN ANY OF THE PREVIOUS
PREMIERS IN THE JURISDICTIONS
OF ONTARIO AND ALBERTA.

NAM SAYS THAT'S FRIGHTENING, AND
THAT'S MOSTLY THROUGH
SOCIAL MEDIA, RIGHT?

Sylvia says A LOT OF IT IS
THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA.
AND SO MY POINT HERE IS ABOUT:
CAN WE ACTUALLY ATTRACT PEOPLE
TO A PUBLIC SPHERE... IN WHICH PARTICULARLY FOR
PROGRESSIVE WOMEN... AND IN THE
CASE OF KATHLEEN WYNNE AS A
SEXUAL ORIENTATION MINORITY... THE
EXTENT TO WHICH WE CAN ACTUALLY
EXPECT PEOPLE FROM DIVERSE
BACKGROUNDS TO PUT THEMSELVES
AND THEIR FAMILIES AT THE EYE OF
THAT SORT OF STORM.
AND SO TO ME, THE QUESTIONS OF
MERIT ARE LINKED IN WITH THIS
POINT ABOUT OUR WELCOMING
PERSPECTIVE TOWARDS DIVERSE
PEOPLE AND POSITIONS
OF PUBLIC LEADERSHIP.
BECAUSE AS MUCH AS PARTIES MIGHT
TRY TO RECRUIT, THERE'S ALSO THE
NEED FOR A SUPPLY, IN OTHER
WORDS, PEOPLE WHO ARE PREPARED
TO BE RECRUITED.
AND SO ONE OF THE CONCERNS
IS WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, HAVE WE
UNLEASHED A STORM THAT
MAKES IT VERY UNWELCOMING?
ASIDE FROM ALL THE
HISTORIC PROBLEMS...
THAT ADDS MORE PROBLEMS.
BECAUSE WE KNOW SOCIAL MEDIA IS
VERY VISUALLY FOCUSED, AND SO
THE EMPHASIS ON WOMEN'S
APPEARANCE AND SPEAKING STYLE,
THEIR FAMILY LIVES, ALL OF THE
STUFF THAT GETS PEELED OFF THE
ONION SORT OF IN SOCIAL MEDIA... ONE OF THE QUESTIONS IS
WHETHER, YOU KNOW, THIS IS
A FAIR SORT OF RECRUITING
GROUND FOR WOMEN CANDIDATES.

NAM SAYS AND, COLLEEN,
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE A 50 percent
GENDER DIVIDE AND STILL BASE IT
ENTIRELY ON MERIT?

Colleen says ABSOLUTELY.
I MEAN, I THINK ORGANIZATIONS
CAN USE THEIR DIVERSITY AS A
RECRUITMENT TOOL.
LIKE, I THINK... THE BOOK LEADS:
"IF I CAN SEE ONE,
I CAN BE ONE."
AND I THINK
THAT'S REALLY TRUE.
WHEN WOMEN THINK ABOUT JOINING
AN ORGANIZATION, AND TALENT IS
CAPITAL, I THINK THEY LOOK AT
AN ORGANIZATION AND SAY,
"HOW HOSPITABLE IS IT HERE?
ARE THERE SENIOR WOMEN
IN LEADERSHIP ROLES?
CAN I BRING MY WHOLE
SELF TO WORK?"
AND, "AM I ALLOWED
TO LEAD WITH THE STYLE I HAVE?"
SO, YES.
YOU KNOW, DOES THAT MEAN
OCCASIONALLY YOU NEED TO ENSURE
IN YOUR RECRUITMENT YOU'RE
CARRYING A DIVERSE SLATE?
DOES IT MEAN THAT IN YOUR
ORGANIZATION, YOU HAVE TO
RECOGNIZE THERE'S DIFFERENT
WAYS TO LEAD, NOT JUST ONE WAY?
AND THEN IN RETENTION, YOU KNOW,
CAN YOU PROVIDE BENEFITS AND
SUPPORT TO WOMEN
AND MEN EQUALLY?
YOU KNOW, WITHOUT
THEM HAVING TO ASK.
BECAUSE IF SOCIAL... YOU
KNOW, IF I'M SOCIALIZED TO NOT
NECESSARILY ASK FOR MY RAISE... SHOULD I NOT GET IT
BECAUSE I'M A FEMALE?

Nam says I'M JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO
PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT.
BECAUSE I KNOW... WE'VE
BOTH... WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT
THE NUMBERS, AND WHAT THE
NUMBERS SHOW, AND WE'VE ALSO
TALKED ABOUT THE LACK OF THE
PEOPLE IN THE
DECISION-MAKING ROLES.
SO, IF YOU ARE LEAVING THIS
RESPONSIBILITY TO COMPANIES, AND
MAYBE, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU SEE
IS WHAT YOU BECOME, IF YOU DON'T
ALREADY HAVE THOSE PEOPLE AT THE
COMPANY, THEN HOW DO YOU EVEN
RECRUIT THOSE PEOPLE
IN THE FIRST PLACE?
SO DO YOU THINK THAT TO AVOID
ALL OF THAT WE SHOULD BE USING
GENDER-BASED TARGETS TO
RECRUIT PEOPLE INTO COMPANIES?

Colleen says SO, I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN A TARGET AND A QUOTA.
AND I THINK THERE IS TOO MUCH
RESEARCH OUT THERE THAT SAYS THAT COMPANIES THAT
ARE DIVERSE OUTPERFORM.
THERE'S LOTS OF
RESEARCH ON THAT.
AND SO I THINK IT REALLY GOES
BACK TO, "I CAN'T RUN A MARATHON
IN SUB-FOUR HOURS,
UNLESS I TRAIN AND PRACTISE
AND DO MY WORK."
SO I THINK ORGANIZATIONS DO
THEIR WORK,
AND THEY GET THE REWARD.
AND SO I THINK THERE ARE
LOTS OF TALENTED WOMEN.
WE'RE SEEING THEM... I THINK ONE
OF THE REASONS WHY THE BOARD
STATISTICS ARE IMPROVING MORE
QUICKLY IS 'CAUSE IT'S EASIER,
RIGHT?
THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A
BOARD OF 20 PEOPLE.
"OK, SO WE WANT SIX FEMALES,
AT A MINIMUM, ON OUR BOARD."
"SIX FEMALES, OK,
THAT'S RECRUITABLE."

Nam says WELL, IF YOU DO... IN POLITICS,
IF YOU DO HAVE THOSE NUMBERS, DO
YOU FIND THAT THE PUBLIC MIGHT
QUESTION WHY THAT PERSON IS
THERE, IF THEY'VE
EARNED THEIR POSITION?

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK THE RESEARCH
SUGGESTS THAT VOTERS ON AVERAGE
TEND TO BE POSITIVELY INCLINED
TOWARDS WOMEN CANDIDATES.
IT'S WHEN WE GET TO WOMEN
LEADERS THAT SOME OF THE
PROBLEMS KICK IN, BECAUSE THEN
WE'RE DEALING WITH A SMALLER
RECRUITMENT POOL.
IT'S NOT WE, AS VOTERS, WHO
ARE GENERALLY CHOOSING
PARTY LEADERS.
IT'S PARTIES THEMSELVES, RIGHT?

NAM SAYS RIGHT.

Sylvia says AND SO THAT'S... IT'S A DIFFERENT
SELECTORATE, YOU KNOW,
OF CHOICE-MAKERS.
I ALSO THINK THAT THERE'S
THE... THERE'S THE REALITY THAT IN
POLITICAL PARTIES AND IN
PARTY LEADERSHIP, THIS ISSUE OF
RETENTION IS OFTEN IN THE
HANDS OF THE VOTERS, RIGHT?
AND THERE MAY BE... THERE MAY BE
OPINION LEADERS WITHIN PARTIES,
OPINION LEADERS WITHIN THE
MEDIA, MAYBE VERY UNCOMFORTABLE
WITH WOMEN IN POSITIONS
OF LEADERSHIP, RIGHT?
AND THAT IS OFTEN, WE FIND, WHAT
IS PUSHING SOME WOMEN OFF THE
STAGE, INCLUDING ONES WHO,
BY MANY METRICS, HAVE BEEN
EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL, RIGHT?

NAM SAYS WELL...

Sylvia says SO THAT'S A PROBLEM THAT'S
RATHER DIFFERENT, I WOULD SAY,
THAN IN, YOU KNOW, A CORPORATE
ENVIRONMENT, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE,
IN A DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL
SYSTEM, THE ABILITY FOR VOTERS
AND INSIDERS AND JOURNALISTS AND
ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE TO COMMENT
ON WHAT CONSTITUTES LEADERSHIP.

NAM SAYS WELL, WHAT
CONSTITUTES LEADERSHIP?
IS IT... ARE WOMEN DIFFERENT
FROM LEADING THAN MEN ARE?
LIKE, WHAT'S... WHAT
CONSTITUTES A DIFFERENCE?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK IN TERMS OF
THE PREMIERS THAT WE'VE HAD... FOR THE MOST PART, WE'RE
FINDING, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE
ASSUMPTION THAT THE TENURE OF
LEGISLATIVE DEBATE WOULD CHANGE
WHEN WOMEN TAKE OVER IS REALLY
NOT HELD... IS NOT SUPPORTED BY
THE EVIDENCE.
IN PART BECAUSE THE PRACTICES
WITHIN THESE INSTITUTIONS HAVE
UNFOLDED OVER SO MANY DECADES,
OVER SO MANY GENERATIONS, THAT
IT'S VERY HARD TO ARGUE THAT
IF A WOMAN BECOMES LET'S SAY A
PREMIER OR A LEADER OF A
POLITICAL PARTY,
THAT SHE HERSELF IS GOING TO
CHANGE SOMEHOW THE SORT OF
CONFLICT-ORIENTED CUTTING
OUT THE FLOOR FROM UNDER ONE'S
OPPONENTS IN TEN SECONDS,
THAT SHE'S GOING TO CHANGE
THAT CULTURE.
SO THEY'RE... IN RESPONSE TO THE
QUESTION THAT THE BOOK POSES,
ABOUT DOING POLITICS
DIFFERENTLY, WE'RE FINDING THAT
SOME WOMEN PREMIERS ARE
RECRUITING A LOT OF OTHER WOMEN
AS CANDIDATES.
BUT SOME, FOR EXAMPLE,
ARE NOT.
SOME ARE DOING A LOT IN TERMS
OF MOVING POLICIES FORWARD THAT
WOMEN HAVE HISTORICALLY CARED
A GREAT DEAL ABOUT,
SUCH AS CHILDCARE
AND PAY EQUITY.
BUT ON THE QUESTION OF THE
TENOR OF POLITICAL DEBATE...
THERE'S VERY LITTLE CHANGE.
AND SO THAT, I THINK, IS
IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT,
BECAUSE WE OFTEN BELIEVE THAT A
SUCCESSFUL POLITICAL LEADER
IS SOMEONE WHO
EXCELS AT THE ART... OF SUCCEEDING IN AN
INSTITUTION THAT IS REALLY BUILT
AROUND CONFLICT, AND NOT
SO MUCH AROUND CONSENSUS.
AND IN FACT, SOME OF THE
RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THERE IS
MORE CONFLICT IN LEGISLATURES
WHEN THERE ARE WOMEN PARTY
LEADERS THAN WHEN THERE ARE MEN,
IF YOU WANT TO MEASURE IT BY
THINGS LIKE HECKLING, EJECTIONS
FROM THE LEGISLATURE,
THE USE OF TIME ALLOCATION OR
CLOSURE MEASURES.
I MEAN, THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE
THAT MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE
CHALLENGES THAT ARE POSED TO
THESE WOMEN LEADERS, TO PROVE
THEMSELVES AS LEADERS IN
THE OLD WAY, THAT THEY...

NAM SAYS BECOME LOUDER?

Sylvia says YES!
AND SO THE RECRUITMENT PRACTICES
ARE ONES WHICH OBVIOUSLY ENSURE
THAT THOSE WHO GET TO THE
PINNACLE OF THE ORGANIZATION ARE
EXCELLING ACCORDING TO THE
NORMS THAT THE ORGANIZATION HAS
TRADITIONALLY VALUED.

Nam says AND WHAT ABOUT PARTY?
DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

Sylvia says PARTY CERTAINLY MAKES A
DIFFERENCE, IN THE SENSE THAT
THE WOMEN WHO ARE MOST LIKELY,
FOR EXAMPLE, TO MOVE ISSUES
FORWARD ON CHILDCARE AND PAY
EQUITY AND SO ON, TEND TO COME
FROM THE CENTRE-LEFT OR LEFT
OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
WHICH IS CONSISTENT WHAT WE
FIND... WITH WHAT WE FIND FOR MEN
LEADERS, RIGHT?
THAT TENDS TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH
MORE GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION,
MORE PUBLIC SPENDING, WHICH
IS USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE
PROGRESSIVE PART OF
THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
WE'RE FINDING THAT... YOU KNOW,
THERE ARE SOME WOMEN LEADERS
WHO... FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CASE
OF ALISON REDFORD, OUR COLLEAGUE
CLARK BANACK AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF ALBERTA SHOWS IN HIS CHAPTER
THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S EVIDENCE
THAT REDFORD WAS NOT THAT
COMFORTABLE WITH OTHER LEADERS
WHO WERE... WHO WERE WOMEN.
SHE DIDN'T RECRUIT TOO MANY
WOMEN IN HER BUREAUCRACY OR IN
HER CABINET.
AND THAT PERHAPS SHE WAS A CASE
OF A QUEEN BEE... A WOMEN WHO WAS
QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH OTHER
WOMEN, AND WHO WANTED TO BE THE
ONLY WOMAN IN THE
ROOM WITH THE GUYS.

Nam says AND, COLLEEN, IN MANY
SITUATIONS, WE'VE SEEN THAT EVEN
WHEN THERE ARE STEPS TO RECRUIT
WOMEN, WOMEN DON'T CHOOSE THE
LEADERSHIP PATH.
WHY IS THAT?

The caption changes to "Looking for power."

Colleen says WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF I
ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THAT.
LIKE, I THINK THE BOOK SHARES 70
STORIES OF 70 CANADIAN BUSINESS
LEADERS, MOSTLY IN
THE TORONTO MARKET... WHO SHOP AT YOUR GROCERY
STORE, AND AROUND YOUR SOCCER
FIELD, AND DEMONSTRATE
CHARACTERISTICS THAT WE THINK
ARE VALUE-BASED
LEADERS... LEADERSHIP
CHARACTERISTICS.
AND I THINK THEY
CHOSE THAT PATHWAY.
SO, I ACTUALLY THINK THERE
ARE MORE AND MORE WOMEN WHO ARE
PUTTING THEIR HANDS UP.

NAM SAYS SO WHY DO WE THINK THAT
WOMEN AREN'T PUTTING UP THEIR HANDS?

Colleen says SO, I THINK IF YOUR ORGANIZATION
IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE TO
MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN WORK AND
YOUR HOME... WOMEN LIVE A FAR MORE
INCLUSIVE STYLE OF WORK-LIFE.
THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEM
BOTH, AND THEY BLEND...

NAM SAYS IS IT A CHOICE?
IS IT A CHOICE?

COLLEEN SAYS YOU CHOOSE YOUR BLEND.
AND YOU CHOOSE HOW
YOU... HOW YOU LIVE.
LIKE, YOU KNOW, IN THE BOOK,
THE... ONE OF THE WOMEN TALKS
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BLUE
SPARKLE ON HER SUIT, YOU KNOW?
WE'VE ALL HAD SPIT-UP
ON OUR SUITS, RIGHT?

NAM SAYS RIGHT.

Colleen says YOU JUST... LIKE, THAT'S
IT; YOU JUST GO FOR IT.
AND SO I THINK THE REALISTIC
PART OF LIFE IS SOME OF IT DOES
GET MOVED TOGETHER.
AND I THINK TODAY'S
WORLD LETS YOU DO THAT.
AND WOMEN ARE EXCELLING.

NAM SAYS AND YOU ALSO NEED THE
SUPPORT OF YOUR COMPANY, RIGHT?
BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE
EARLY,
OR HAVE TO PICK UP THE KIDS...

Colleen says HEY, YEAH.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Colleen says YOU NEED SUPPORT
OF YOUR COMPANY;
YOU NEED SUPPORT
OF YOUR FAMILY;
YOU NEED SUPPORT
OF YOUR KIDS.
YOU NEED SUPPORT IN YOUR... YOU
KNOW, YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY.
WE GET TO THE END OF THE LINE
BRINGING A LOT OF PEOPLE
WITH US.
AND I THINK ORGANIZATIONS
ARE MORE HUMAN AND ACCEPT THAT
THAT'S HOW THEY'LL GET THE BEST.
AND BEST IN EVERYONE.
NOT JUST THEIR LEADERS.

Nam says LET'S TALK ABOUT
THE F-WORD [LAUGHS].
FAILURE!
IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE
NEED TO TALK ABOUT MORE?
BECAUSE WHEN IT COMES TO
POLITICS, IN THE SITUATIONS THAT
YOU PUT OUT IN THE BOOK,
SOMETIMES THE WOMEN WHO DO
BECOME PREMIERS ARE INHERITING,
YOU KNOW, SOME REALLY BAD STUFF.
AND THEN WHEN THEY DON'T
DO WELL, IT'S THEIR FAULT.
AND THAT SAYS WHAT
ABOUT WOMEN LEADERS?
I THINK THEY HAVE
THAT BURDEN ON THEM.
DO WE NEED TO TALK
MORE ABOUT FAILURE?

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'VE
TRIED IN THIS BOOK TO FOCUS ON
THESE WOMEN PREMIERS AND SORT
OF SET UP A SET OF CATEGORIES TO
HELP US TO UNDERSTAND THE
CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH THEY
BECAME PREMIERS.
SO, WE CERTAINLY TALK ABOUT WHAT
WE CALL IMPERILED LEADERSHIP,
WHERE A WOMAN TAKES OVER
A POLITICAL PARTY AND
A GOVERNMENT, WHICH APPEARS
TO BE REALLY ON THE ROPES.

NAM SAYS YOU ALSO CALL IT A
"GLASS CLIFF," RIGHT?

SYLVIA SAYS WELL, WE REFER TO THE
GLASS CLIFF ARGUMENT BECAUSE WE
SAY WE WANT TO GIVE IT A
LITTLE MORE TEXTURE, RIGHT?
BECAUSE THESE
CLIFFS VARY, RIGHT?
SOME OF THEM SEEM TO BE DOOMED,
BUT A LOT OF THESE WOMEN SAVE
THEIR PARTIES, AND WIN, YOU
KNOW, A MAJORITY GOVERNMENT FOR
A PARTY THAT'S CONSIDERED DOOMED
UNDER THE PREVIOUS MALE LEADER,
RIGHT?
THEN WE HAVE THESE WOMEN WHO ARE
PIONEERS, WHO BRING A PARTY TO
POWER THAT'S NEVER
BEEN IN OFFICE BEFORE.
AND DESPITE THEIR HUGE
BREAKTHROUGHS, THEY STILL GET A
VERY, VERY ROUGH RIDE.
RACHEL NOTLEY WOULD BE THE
MOST RECENT EXAMPLE OF THAT.
AND THEN WE HAVE THESE WOMEN
THAT WE CALL "EMPOWERED."
A WOMAN WHO TAKES OVER A
POLITICAL POWER THAT'S IN POWER,
THAT'S DOING VERY WELL, FROM
A MALE LEADER WHO'S BIG AND
CHARISMATIC, AND SHE'S FOUND
WANTING... IN MANY CASES BECAUSE
NO WOMAN CAN PROJECT THAT KIND
OF EGO AND CHARISMA... AS, FOR
EXAMPLE, CATHERINE CALLBECK
FOUND IN PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND,
SUCCEEDING JOE GHIZ, OR KATHY
DUNDERDALE IN NEWFOUNDLAND,
SUCCEEDING DANNY WILLIAMS.
SO, THERE ARE DIFFERENT
KINDS OF CLIFFS HERE.
BUT OUR ARGUMENT REALLY IS
THAT WE NEED TO UNPACK THESE
CIRCUMSTANCES AND TALK ABOUT
WHAT IT WAS... IF WE TALK ABOUT
THESE CLIFFS, WHAT IS IT THAT
TIPS THIS WOMAN OFF THE EDGE,
OFF THE STAGE?
AND IN MANY CASES,
IT'S THE IMPATIENCE
OF HER OWN POLITICAL PARTY.
DESPITE THE FACT THAT SHE'S MADE
AN INCREDIBLE... A BREAKTHROUGH,
IN MANY CASES, BY SAVING
THEM FROM CERTAIN OBLIVION.

Nam says SO DO YOU THINK WOMEN... MORE
WOMEN NEED TO PUT UP THEIR HANDS
WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICS?

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY
IMPORTANT FOR US TO HAVE, YOU
KNOW, A DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL
PROCESS THAT OFFERS US LEADERS
WHO LOOK LIKE
OURSELVES AS A SOCIETY.
SO, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT
TO HAVE DIVERSE
POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.
I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR
US TO QUESTION THE CIRCUMSTANCES
THAT FACE OUR LEADERS AND WHAT
IT IS THAT MAY PREVENT PEOPLE
FROM PUTTING
THEMSELVES FORWARD... BECAUSE THE OBSTACLES AND
THE THREATS MAY SEEM TO BE SO
IMPOSSIBLE TO NAVIGATE.

Nam says AND, COLLEEN, WHAT ROLE DOES
MENTORSHIP AND SPONSORSHIP PLAY?

Colleen says WELL, I ACTUALLY WANT TO
GO BACK TO THE F WORD, OK?
BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE
REASONS WHY WE FELT THAT WE
NEEDED... LIKE, WE DID THE JUDY
PROJECT, AND THEN THERE WAS 450
WOMEN WHO WENT ON THAT, AND WE
WANTED TO AMPLIFY OUR IMPACT,
RIGHT?
'CAUSE FOR WOMEN LEADERS IN
CORPORATIONS, WE WANT IMPACT.
WE WANT TO... WE WANT TO CHANGE
OUR COMPANIES, WE WANT TO CHANGE
OUR WORLD.
SO I THINK ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT WE FELT IS CORPORATE
STORYTELLING IS ONE
OF THE WAYS YOU DO IT.
AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE F-WORD,
AND IN THE CHAPTER ON COURAGE,
BETH SAYS, "I FAILED,
BUT I'M NOT A FAILURE."
AND ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT IT
HONESTLY, OR SHARING STORIES
HONESTLY, ALLOWS PEOPLE TO WORK
IT AROUND IN THEIR MOUTH AND IN
THEIR MINDS, AND SAY, "YEAH,
YOU KNOW, I CAN GO FOR THAT."
"THE WORST THING WOULD
HAPPEN IS I MIGHT FAIL."
"THAT WON'T MAKE ME A FAILURE."
I THINK OFTEN IN, YOU KNOW... NOT
IN THE... IN THE REALM OF
POLITICS, BUT LEADERSHIP
ISN'T A SOUNDBITE, YOU KNOW?
IT ISN'T A MOMENT.
IT'S A LONG PERIOD OF TIME... OF A BUNCH OF ACTIVITIES
THAT DEMONSTRATE LEADERSHIP.
AND I THINK THAT WHEN WE USE
STORYTELLING, YOUNGER WOMEN... AND
THAT'S WHO THE BOOK'S
WRITTEN FOR... CAN LEARN.
AND IT REMINDS ALL OF
US AS OLDER WOMEN... TO PULL WOMEN UP, TO BRING
THEM ALONG, TO... WHICH IS WHERE
MENTORSHIP AND
SPONSORSHIP COMES IN.
SPONSORSHIP, "I'M GOING TO TALK
ABOUT YOU
WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN THE ROOM.
I'M GOING TO REPRESENT YOU
WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN THE ROOM."
MENTORSHIP IS MORE
OF A TWO-WAY STREET.
YOU KNOW, "HOW DO YOU
FEEL ABOUT THAT, COLLEEN?
HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED TO YOU?
I'M THINKING
ABOUT HAVING A CHILD.
WHEN DO I TELL,
YOU KNOW, MY BOSS?"
SO, BEING ABLE TO... MENTORSHIP
IS ABOUT,
"WELL, HERE'S HOW YOU MIGHT
FRAME THAT."
SO, IT'S PULLING UP AND ALSO
STAYING IN WITH THAT... THAT
WOMAN, AS SHE
EVOLVES HER OWN VOICE.

NAM SAYS AND, SYLVIA, I'LL
LET YOU HAVE THE LAST WORD.

SYLVIA SAYS SURE.
I THINK WE'VE SEEN A TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF MENTORSHIP ON THE PART
OF WOMEN IN
CANADIAN PUBLIC LIFE.
I THINK ONE OF THE SURPRISING
FINDINGS OF THIS STUDY IS THAT
WE'VE HAD SOME POLITICAL
WOMEN ON THE RIGHT AND THE
CENTRE-RIGHT.
OUTSIDE THE PART OF THE SPECTRUM
WHERE WE EXPECT THIS TO HAPPEN,
WE'VE ACTUALLY DONE LOT TO
RECRUIT WOMEN CABINET MINISTERS
AND RECRUIT WOMEN IN THE SENIOR
REACHES OF THEIR BUREAUCRACIES.
SO I THINK THE MENTORSHIP
AND THE SPONSORSHIP AND THE
ENCOURAGEMENT OF OTHER WOMEN IS
SOMETHING THAT CAN HAPPEN ACROSS
THE SPECTRUM.
AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF
THE VERY ENCOURAGING PARTS OF
CANADIAN POLITICS, BECAUSE IT'S
RARE TO SEE A POLITICAL SYSTEM
WHERE CONSERVATIVE WOMEN ARE
PREPARED TO ACTUALLY WORK
TO INCREASE NUMBERS ACROSS THE
BOARD IN A SPECTRUM
WHERE THEY CAN DO SO.

The caption changes to "Producer: Katie O'Connor, @KA_OConnor; Producer: Cara Stern, @carastern."

Nam says WELL, SYLVIA AND COLLEEN, THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
AND THANK YOU FOR THE WORK
THAT YOU DO TO EMPOWER WOMEN.
IT'S BEEN A
PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE.

BOTH guests say THANK YOU.

NAM SAYS THANKS.

Watch: Getting Women to the Top