Transcript: The Right Way to Build More Homes | Jun 18, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pale pink shirt, and spotted purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "The right way to build more homes? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IN THE FINAL DAYS OF
THE FORD GOVERNMENT'S FIRST YEAR
IN POWER, IT DID PASS THE
MORE
HOMES, MORE CHOICE ACT.
BILL 108 MAKES SWEEPING CHANGES
TO LAND USE PLANNING ACROSS THE
PROVINCE, AND WHILE IT MIGHT NOW
BE LAW, ITS OPPONENTS AREN'T
GOING QUIETLY.
HERE FOR THEIR PERSPECTIVES:
JOSH MATLOW, TORONTO CITY
COUNCILLOR FOR WARD 12,
ST. PAUL'S...

Josh is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a blue shirt and a checkered black tie.

Steve continues JOE VACCARO, CEO OF THE ONTARIO
HOME BUILDERS' ASSOCIATION...

Joe is in his forties, with medium-length wavy brown hair and a trimmed beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, and checkered blue tie.

Steve continues TIM HUDAK, CEO OF THE ONTARIO REAL ESTATE ASSOCIATION...

Tim is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and spotted purple tie.

Steve continues AND JENNIFER KEESMAAT, CEO OF THE KEESMAAT GROUP.
FORMER CHIEF PLANNER FOR THE
CITY OF TORONTO, OF COURSE.

Jennifer is in her late forties, with shoulder-length blond hair. She's wearing glasses, a gray blazer and a golden necklace.

Steve continues WE'RE HAPPY TO WELCOME YOU ALL
BACK TO TVO.
JUST FOR THOSE WHO AREN'T AS UP
ON THIS AS YOU GUYS ARE,
SHELDON, DO YOU WANT TO BRING
THIS GRAPHIC UP AND WE'LL CUT TO
THE RED TAPE.
HERE WE GO.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "More homes, more choice."

The slate reads "Cuts red tape. Encourages different types of housing. Simplifies development charges. Exempts charges for secondary units. Encourages density around transit."

Steve says THAT'S JUST SOME OF
THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THIS AND I'D
LIKE TO GO AROUND THE TABLE AND
JUST GET... GIVE ME YOUR SORT OF
30-SECOND ELEVATOR PITCH ON
WHETHER WE LIKE OR DON'T LIKE
WHERE THIS THING IS GOING.
JOSH?

The caption changes to "Josh Matlow. Toronto City Councillor. @JoshMatlow."
Then, it changes again to "Sparking more supply."

Josh says THE FORD
GOVERNMENT HAS SOLD THIS AS THE
ANSWER TO THE CRISIS IN TORONTO
AND SOUTHERN ONTARIO.
THE REALITY IS THIS DOES LITTLE
TO NOTHING TO ADDRESS
AFFORDABILITY.
I'M NOT JUST SAYING THAT.
OUR CHIEF PLANNER SAID THE SAME
THING.
WHAT THIS DOES DO IS ESSENTIALLY
HAND THE DEVELOPMENT PLANNING
PROCESS OVER TO THE DEVELOPMENT
INDUSTRY, WHO HAVE BEEN LOBBYING
THEM FOR A LONG TIME TO GET
THESE CHANGES TO HAPPEN.
THIS ALLOWS FOR HEIGHTENED
DENSITIES THAT WERE NOT
ENVISIONED UNDER THE CITY'S
OFFICIAL PLAN.
IT OVERINTENSIFIES CERTAIN
AREAS.
ALONG WITH, BY THE WAY, THEY'VE
REMOVED OUR PLANS FOR OUR...
SECONDARY PLANS, HERE AT YONGE
AND EGLINTON IN DOWNTOWN.
SO WE WILL NO LONGER HAVE
ASSURANCES FOR DEDICATED PARK
SPACE.
WE WILL NOT HAVE ASSURANCES THAT
CHILD CARE, RECREATION, TRANSIT,
QUALITY-OF-LIFE ISSUES,
INFRASTRUCTURE, WILL KEEP UP
WITH THE PACE OF GROWTH.

Steve says HOLD RIGHT THERE.
JOE VACCARO?

The caption changes to "Joe Vaccaro. Ontario Home Builders Association. @JoeOHBA."

Joe says I MEAN, WE
TAKE THE APPROACH THAT WE
RECOGNIZE THAT... OR WE'RE TOLD
BY THE PROVINCE AT LEAST THAT
2.6 MILLION PEOPLE ARE GOING TO
BE JOINING THIS REGION BY 2031,
AND SO THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM
IN THAT CONVERSATION IS, DEMAND
IS REAL.
PEOPLE ARE COMING TO THIS
REGION.
AND SO THE NEED FOR A HOUSING
SYSTEM THAT RESPONDS TO THAT
DEMAND IS IMPORTANT.
AND I THINK WHAT THIS BILL DOES
FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE IS IT DEALS
WITH THE HOUSING SYSTEM IN A
COMPLETE WAY, NOT JUST
PIECE-MEALING PLANNING
DEVELOPMENT CHARGES AND ALL
THESE OTHER ISSUES.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S
ABOUT SUPPLY.
WE FIRMLY BELIEVE MORE HOMES
CREATE BETTER AFFORDABILITY FOR
EVERYONE ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
SO FROM A SUPPLY STANDPOINT, IF
THIS IS GOING TO CUT RED TAPE
AND GET US TO BUILDING MORE,
THAT CAN ONLY BE A GOOD THING
FOR OUR COMMUNITIES.

Steve says JENNIFER KEESMAAT?

The caption changes to "Jennifer Keesmaat. The Keesmaat Group. @jen_keesmaat."

Jennifer says WELL, THIS IS KIND OF A COMPLICATED
ISSUE AND THERE'S A REALLY BIG
DEBATE ABOUT THE ROLE OF SUPPLY
IN ADDRESSING AFFORDABILITY.
WE CAN LOOK AT CITIES AROUND THE
WORLD AND ASSESS WHETHER SUPPLY
MAKES A CITY MORE AFFORDABLE.
YOU WOULD THINK IN A SUPPLY AND
DEMAND SYSTEM, THAT WOULD BE THE
CASE.
IN FACT THERE IS NO CITY ON
EARTH, THERE IS NO CITY ON EARTH
WHERE SIMPLY ADDING SUPPLY IN AN
OPEN GLOBAL MARKET SYSTEM HAS
CREATED AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
NEW YORK CITY RAN THIS
EXPERIMENT UNDER BLOOMBERG.
THEY ADDED MORE SUPPLY THAN HAD
EVER BEEN ADDED IN THE HISTORY
OF NEW YORK CITY.
AND WHAT HAPPENED?
PRICES WENT LIKE THIS.
SO WE KNOW...

Steve says BECAUSE WHY?
THE SUPPLY CAN JUST NEVER KEEP
UP WITH THE DEMAND?

Jennifer says EXACTLY.
TO THE POINT, WE KNOW A
SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE
COMING TO THIS REGION.
WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE TO PROVIDE
HOUSING FOR EVERYONE.
WE HAVE TO PROVIDE HOUSING FOR
PEOPLE ALONG THE ENTIRE
ECOSYSTEM, MEANING FAMILIES,
MEANING PEOPLE IN THE SERVICE
INDUSTRY, AND THE RISK, OF
COURSE, IS THAT WITHOUT VERY
CLEAR POLICIES TO ACHIEVE THAT,
LIKE INCLUSIONARY ZONING, IT
SIMPLY WON'T ONLY HAPPEN THROUGH
THE MARKET.

Steve says TIM HUDAK?

The caption changes to "Tim Hudak. Ontario Real Estate Association. @timhudak."

Tim says SO, LOOK.
EVERYBODY WATCHING "THE AGENDA."
HAS.
SHE GOT HER DEGREE, GOT A GOOD
JOB, CAN'T FIND AN AFFORDABLE
PLACE TO SAVE HER LUCK.
STILL STUCK THAT IN MOM AND
DAD'S BASEMENT.
WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?
YOU HAVE TO GET TAXES DOWN.
THEY'RE PUNISHING WHEN IT COMES
TO BUYING A HOME, ESPECIALLY IN
TORONTO WITH THE DOUBLE LAND
TAX.
NUMBER TWO YOU NEED TO ADJUST
THE MORTGAGE RULES.
IT'S GETTING HARDER TO GET A
MORTGAGE.
THE MOST ESSENTIAL ANSWER TO
THIS IS MORE HOUSING SUPPLY.
MORE HOMES, MORE CHOICES.
THE ONTARIO REAL ESTATE
ASSOCIATION, WHICH I'M THE CEO,
PUT TEN IDEAS ON THE TABLE TO
HELP THAT PERSON FIND A PLACE TO
CALL HOME.
THE GOVERNMENT PUT EIGHT OF
THESE IN THIS BILL.
IT'S GOING TO HELP SOLVE OUR
HOUSING AFFORDABILITY CRISIS.

Steve says WHAT ABOUT THE
NOTION, JOE, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO
KEEP UP, EVEN IF YOU INCREASE
SUPPLY SIGNIFICANTLY,
UNPRECEDENTEDLY AS JENNIFER
SUGGESTED, IT WON'T BE ABLE TO
KEEP UP WITH DEMAND BECAUSE
DEMAND IS GOING THROUGH THE ROOF.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Joe says I THINK WHAT'S
IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS THE
BILL PUT FORWARD ISN'T ABOUT
NEW, IT TALKS ABOUT SECONDARY
SUITES, IT TALKS ABOUT RENTAL.
IT TALKS ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT
OPTIONS THAT YOU HAVE.
SOMETIMES WE TALK ABOUT THE
HOUSING SYSTEM AND WE GET LOCKED
INTO A PLANNING DISCUSSION OR A
TAXES DISCUSSION.
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE ENTIRE
SYSTEM, EVERYONE HAS A ROLE TO
PLAY.
SO BEYOND SIMPLY MOVING
APPROVALS FORWARD, THE FINANCIAL
TAXES YOU PUT AGAINST THAT
PROJECT HAVE AN IMPACT ON THAT
PRICE POINT AS WELL.
THE ABILITY TO GET IT THROUGH
THE SYSTEM IN A FIVE-YEAR WINDOW
VERSUS A TEN-YEAR WINDOW HAS AN
IMPACT.
YOU CAN STILL HAVE A SUPPLY
DISCUSSION.
TO YOUR POINT, THERE IS MORE TO
IT.
THERE ARE POLICIES THAT GO WITH
IT.
SOMETIMES THOSE POLICIES ARE
ACTUALLY COUNTER TO THE ENTIRE
IDEA OF CREATING BETTER
AFFORDABILITY.

Steve says JOSH?

Josh says WITH ALL
RESPECT, INDUSTRY LOBBYISTS LIKE
YOURSELF, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT,
AND THE FORD GOVERNMENT SAID
THIS IS ABOUT AFFORDABILITY AND
SUPPLY.
THE REALITY IS, THERE ARE OVER
140,000 UNITS THAT HAVE ALREADY
BEEN APPROVED THAT THE
DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY HASN'T
BUILT.
THE CITY OF TORONTO HAS BEEN ON
AVERAGE APPROVING OVER 17,000
UNITS A YEAR.
THERE IS NO ISSUE AROUND SUPPLY.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BILL 108
DOES IS IT BRINGS BACK THE OMB
RULES, AND WHAT IT DOES IS ALSO
REMOVES THE CITY'S ABILITY TO
ENSURE THAT GROWTH WILL PAY FOR
GROWTH.
IT REMOVES SECTION 37.
IT REMOVES THE DEVELOPMENT
CHARGES.
IT REMOVES 42.
AND IT PUTS IT INTO THIS SORT OF
POOL OF COMMUNITY BENEFITS
WITHOUT ASSURANCE THAT BASIC
ESSENTIAL SERVICES AND
INFRASTRUCTURE WILL KEEP UP WITH
THE PACE OF GROWTH.

Steve says CAN I JUST
UNDERSTAND SOMETHING HERE?
YOU SAID A WHOLE BUNCH OF UNITS
HAVE BEEN APPROVED BUT NOT BUILT YET?

Josh says THAT'S UP TO THE DEVELOPMENT
INDUSTRY TO MOVE ON AND ACTUALLY
BUILD THEM.
BUT WHAT WE'VE SEEN, THOUGH, IS
THE OMB WAS THERE FOR DECADES.
WHAT DID WE END UP WITH?
LUXURY CONDOS AND SOME HIGH-END
RENTAL.
WE HAVE NOT SEEN AFFORDABILITY
COME INTO PLAY.
WHAT WE COULD SEE THE GOVERNMENT
DO IS ACTUALLY PROVIDE POLICY
LEVERS, I BELIEVE LIKE JEN WAS
ALLUDING TO, INCLUDING NOT
RESTRICTING INCLUSIONARY ZONING
TO CERTAIN TRANSIT HUBS BUT
ALLOWING THE CITY OF TORONTO TO
GET ON WITH MANDATING THAT WE
HAVE AFFORDABLE UNITS THROUGHOUT
OUR CITY.

Steve says TIM WANTS IN.

Tim says LOOK, WE TRIED
JOSH'S ALARMIST LANGUAGE AND
OBSTRUCTIONIST POLICIES FOR A
DECADE.
WE GOT A HOUSING CRISIS IN THE
CITY OF TORONTO AND ACROSS THE
GTA.
PEOPLE DID EVERYTHING RIGHT AND
CANNOT GET INTO THE MARKETPLACE.
IT ASSUMES LUDICROUS TO ARGUE
THAT SUPPLY IS NOT AN ISSUE.
MY MEMBERS, REALTORS ARE OUT
THERE EVERY DAY WITH PEOPLE
CHASING FEWER AND FEWER HOMES.
YOU HAVE TO INTENSIFY AROUND
TRANSIT HUBS.
THE GOVERNMENT CAN PLAY A ROLE
BY BRINGING MORE GOVERNMENT LAND
INTO PLAY.
IN TURN WITH DEVELOPERS THEY CAN
HAVE SUBSIDIZE UNITS FOR LOW
INCOME FAMILIES.
THE PROBLEM IS WHEN A FAMILY
CAN'T MOVE UP WHEN THE KIDS GET
BIGGER TO MOVE UP HOME OR THEY
CAN'T GET IN IN THE FIRST PLACE,
THEY GET BACK INTO RENTALS.
PEOPLE CAN'T GET INTO RENTALS
AND UNITS AREN'T CREATED.
THAT MEANS THE MOST VULNERABLE
PEOPLE DON'T GET HOUSING TO
BEGIN WITH.
THIS IMPACTS ACROSS THE
SPECTRUM.

Steve says JENNIFER?

Jennifer says ONE OF
THE FUNNY THINGS ABOUT THIS BILL
IS THAT THERE'S A LOT OF TALK
ABOUT SUPPLY.
I THINK THERE'S A BROAD
CONSENSUS THAT WE NEED MORE
SUPPLY.
AND THE QUESTION BECOMES: WHAT'S
THE BEST WAY TO DELIVER THAT
SUPPLY?
AND IN PARTICULAR, AFFORDABLE
SUPPLY.
TO THE POINT THAT JOSH MADE,
WHEN I WAS CHIEF PLANNER IN THE
CITY, WE WERE ALREADY BEING
BEATEN UP ABOUT THE PLANNING
PROCESS AND THE RISK THAT THE
PLANNING PROCESS PRESENTED TO
AFFORDABILITY.
SO WE UP-ENDED THE PLANNING
PROCESS AND BEGAN DELIVERING NEW
UNITS IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
WAY, WHICH RESULTED IN
20 PERCENT MORE UNITS BEING
APPROVED ON AN ANNUAL BASIS.
NOW, THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS
WHY WE HAVE MORE UNITS UNDER
CONSTRUCTION THAN ANY OTHER CITY
IN NORTH AMERICA.
IN A PURE SUPPLY AND DEMAND
MODEL, WE SHOULD ACTUALLY BE THE
LEAST EXPENSIVE CITY IN NORTH
AMERICA BECAUSE WE'RE BUILDING
MORE UNITS THAN ANYBODY ELSE.
BUT WHAT DEMONSTRATES TO US IS
THAT THERE ARE MARKET MECHANISMS
IN PLAY THAT OUR SYSTEM RIGHT
NOW IS SIMPLY ACCENTUATING
THAT LEAD TO AN UNAFFORDABLE
MARKET.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Jennifer says WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE
SAME APPROACH AS IN THE PAST.
WE NEED NEW PROCESSES LIKE
INCLUSIONARY ZONING.
IN AMERICA, OVER 500 CITIES HAVE
INCLUSIONARY ZONING, AND IT'S
THE KEY WAY THAT NEW YORK CITY,
IT'S THE KEY WAY THAT CHICAGO IS
DELIVERING AFFORDABLE HOUSING
AND SEATTLE IS DELIVERING
AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

Steve says PART OF THE BILL
DOES ALLOW FOR ALLOWING SUITES
IN BASEMENT APARTMENTS, OVER
GARAGES, IN LANEWAYS, ALL OF
THAT KIND OF STUFF.
THAT IS THE KIND OF STUFF THAT
TRADITIONALLY YOUR CONSTITUENTS
WOULD OPPOSE.
WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON IT?

Joe says IT'S NOT JUST
MY VIEW.
HERE'S THE FACT.
THE CITY OF TORONTO IS ALREADY
MOVING ON THESE THINGS.
WE'RE ALREADY DOING IT.
WE DIDN'T NEED THIS BILL TO LET
US KNOW WE SHOULD.
WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE,
THOUGH, IS THEY ACTUALLY REMOVED
THIS YEAR ALL RENT CONTROL ON
ALL NEW UNITS BEING BUILT IN
ONTARIO, MEANING THERE'S NO
ASSURANCE THAT THE VAST
PREPONDERANCE OF NEW RENTAL
UNITS BEING BUILT ARE GOING TO
BE AFFORDABLE TO ANYBODY.
WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE IS
THEY'VE PUT THE DEVELOPMENT
INDUSTRY'S INTERESTS BEFORE THE
QUALITY OF LIFE OF RESIDENTS IN
THE COMMUNITY.
NOT JUST THOSE WHO ARE LIVING IN
THE NEIGHBOURHOODS.
IT DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MISSING
MIDDLE.
WHAT IT DOES DO...

Steve says EXPLAIN THE MISSING
MIDDLE.

Josh says WE HAVE PRIMARILY SINGLE
FAMILY HOME NEIGHBOURHOODS WHERE
THERE'S A VERY VALID ARGUMENT WE
SHOULD SEE LIGHT INTENSIFICATION
TO ACCOMMODATE MORE AFFORDABLE
HOUSING.
WE ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE WE
HAVE POLICY LEVERS THAT ALLOW
FOR THE ECONOMICS OF BUILDING
MID-RISE DEVELOPMENT ALONG OUR
AVENUES, MAKE MORE SENSE.
THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS
THAT THE CITY OF TORONTO
SUPPORTS AND WANTS TO MOVE
FORWARD WITH.
WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE IS
THEY'VE ACTUALLY MADE IT MORE
DIFFICULT TO LIVE IN EITHER THE
SINGLE FAMILY NEIGHBOURHOOD
DESIGNATED AREAS OR THE
APARTMENT NEIGHBOURHOODS BECAUSE
THEY'RE GOING TO BE LESS
AFFORDABLE BUT ALSO THEY TOOK
AWAY OUR ABILITY TO MAKE SURE
THAT THERE ARE PARKS, SCHOOLS,
INFRASTRUCTURE, RECREATION
CENTRES, BASIC COMPONENTS OF OUR
QUALITY OF LIFE, TO BE ABLE TO
SUPPORT THOSE WHO LIVE THERE
TODAY BUT ALSO THOSE WHO ARE
MOVING IN.

Steve says LET ME GET TIM'S
VIEW ON THIS.
AS FORMER PC LEADER, I WANT TO
KNOW WHETHER YOU THINK IT'S
APPROPRIATE FOR THE PROVINCE TO
STEP IN IN THE WAY IT HAS,
ASSUMING SOME JURISDICTION OVER
WHAT USED TO BE THE PURVIEW OF
MUNICIPALITIES?

Tim says YEAH, LOOK.
WHEN MUNICIPALITIES BREAK THEIR
OWN RULES AND THEY'RE STANDING
IN THE WAY OF THAT YOUNG
MILLENNIAL FINDING A PLACE TO
CALL HOME, THEN I THINK THERE IS
A ROLE FOR THE PROVINCE TO PLAY.

Steve says WHAT ROLE SHOULD
THEY PLAY?

Tim says WHEN IT CAME TO THE YONGE AND
EGLINTON, FOR EXAMPLE,
DEVELOPMENT...

Steve says THAT'S WHERE WE ARE
RIGHT NOW.

Tim says AND I GET THE GAME, RIGHT?
I GET THE GAME.
I'VE BEEN IN POLITICS.
I KNOW THE FORCES OF NIMBYISM
CAN BE VERY STRONG.
COUNCILLORS WILL REACT TO
CURRENT VOTERS AS OPPOSED TO
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO MOVE INTO THE
AREA.
WHEN WE SEE AT YONGE AND
EGLINTON THAT THE CITY AND THE
PROVINCE ARE RIGHTLY INVESTING
IN INFRASTRUCTURE, JUST BEFORE A
MUNICIPAL ELECTION, TO LOWER THE
AMOUNT OF DENSITY THAT'S
HAPPENING IN THAT NEIGHBOURHOOD
WAS A TERRIBLE ABROGATION OF
RULES.
THE CITY PLANNERS ARE IN FAVOUR
OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS.
SO DOES THE PROVINCE STEP IN TO
CREATE MORE AFFORDABLE UNITS FOR
PEOPLE?
ABSOLUTELY.

Josh says THAT IS FACTUALLY...

Jennifer says THE
IMPORTANT PIECE THAT'S MISSING
HERE, THERE'S A RISK, AN
ENORMOUS RISK, TO THIS CITY, TO
ANY CITY IN THIS PROVINCE, OF
JUST BUILDING HOUSING AND NOT
ALSO BUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE
THAT CREATES A LIVABLE
COMMUNITY, WHICH MEANS WE NEED
SCHOOLS.
YOU CAN WALK OUT THIS DOOR.
EVERY DEVELOPMENT IN THIS
NEIGHBOURHOOD WILL SAY: BY THE
WAY, THERE'S NO SPACE LEFT IN
THE SCHOOLS.
THERE'S NO ROOM FOR FAMILIES IN
THIS NEIGHBOURHOOD.
YONGE AND EGLINTON CURRENTLY IS
BUILDING MORE UNITS THAN THE
ENTIRE CITY OF BOSTON.
I THINK ONE OF THE RISKS HERE
RIGHT NOW IS THAT WE
OVEREMPHASIZE VERY, VERY INTENSE
DENSE AREAS IN THE CITY AND WE
ACTUALLY MISS OUT ON A
PROVINCIAL-WIDE SCALE BUILDING
HOUSING ACROSS THE ENTIRE
PROVINCE.
IF WE LOOK AT OXFORD COUNTY AS
AN EXAMPLE.
TOYOTA WOULD LIKE TO EXPAND
THEIR FACTORY.
BUT THEY CANNOT FOR A VERY
SIMPLE REASON.
THESE ARE MID PAYING DROPS.
WHY?
BECAUSE THEY CANNOT ATTRACT
EMPLOYEES BECAUSE EMPLOYEES
CANNOT AFFORD HOUSING IN OXFORD
COUNTY.
SO HERE WE HAVE YONGE AND
EGLINTON WITH MORE DENSITY THAN
THE ENTIRE CITY OF BOSTON AND
WE'RE FIXATING ON THAT, EVEN
THOUGH THERE'S NO ROOM IN THE
LOCAL SCHOOLS.
YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR CHILD INTO
SWIMMING LESSONS IN THIS
NEIGHBOURHOOD BECAUSE THERE'S SO
MUCH DEVELOPMENT TAKING PLACE
HERE...

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Josh says MAY I ADD ON TO WHAT JEN WAS
SAYING.
TIM, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, YOU
SAID SOMETHING THAT IS FACTUALLY
UNTRUE.
NOT ONLY ARE WE NOT BREAKING
RULES...

Tim says YOU'RE BREAKING YOUR OWN
RULES BEFORE AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN...

Steve says ONE AT A TIME, PLEASE.
JOSH, FINISH, PLEASE.

Josh says IT'S NOT TRUE.
I KNOW IT'S A GOOD NARRATIVE FOR
YOU, MY FRIEND, BUT ULTIMATELY
WHAT THE CITY OF TORONTO DID IS
SPENT YEARS WITH CONSULTATION
WITH THE DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY,
WITH RESIDENTS, AND LED BY THE
PLANNING DEPARTMENT ARE
OBJECTIVE INDEPENDENT PLANNERS
TO COME UP WITH A PLAN THAT DID
NOT SAY NO TO GROWTH.
WHAT IT DID WAS MANAGE GROWTH TO
ENSURE THAT WHILE WE GROW, AND
WE RECOGNIZE WE'RE GOING TO
GROW, WE HAD ROOM FOR PEOPLE TO
BE ABLE TO, AS JEN SAID, TO GET
THEIR KIDS TO A RECREATION
CENTRE, TO BE ABLE TO GO TO
SCHOOL.
I LIVE IN MIDTOWN TORONTO AND I
CAN TELL YOU AT MY CHILD'S
SCHOOL, AND I MENTIONED THIS TO
YOU EARLIER, THEY HAD TO TAKE
THE SIXTH GRADE CLASSES OUT
BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING
OVERCROWDED.
THEY PUT THEM INTO A MIDDLE
SCHOOL THAT NOW THEY'RE TRYING
TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ACCOMMODATE
GROWTH THERE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT PRO OR
ANTIGROWTH...

Steve says EQUAL TIME.

Tim says C'MON.
WHEN YOU CHANGE THE RULES IN THE
MIDDLE OF THE GAME, BEFORE A
MUNICIPAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN,
COUNCILLORS START OVERRULING
PLANNING STAFF TO GET VOTES.
I HAVE A PROBLEM FOR THAT.
I ADVOCATE FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT
TO GET INTO THE HOUSING MARKET
AND EXPERIENCE HOME OWNERSHIP.

Josh says WHICH ONE?

Tim says YONGE AND
EGLINTON WHERE YOU LOWER THE
DENSITY.
THE PROVINCE HAS STEPPED IN...

Jennifer says JUST TO
PICK UP ON THIS.
I THINK THE NARRATIVE IS A BIT
CONFUSED HERE.
WE'RE ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT ONE
OF THE HIGHEST GROWTH
NEIGHBOURHOODS IN NORTH AMERICA,
WHICH IS YONGE AND EGLINTON.
THE FIRST HIGHEST IS THE
DOWNTOWN CORE.
SO IT'S NOT LIKE WE HAVE A
NO-GROWTH SCENARIO OR A
LOW-GROWTH SCENARIO.
I THINK THE CONVERSATION
ACTUALLY NEEDS TO FOCUS ON THE
VAST AREAS BOTH WITHIN TORONTO
AND OUTSIDE OF TORONTO WHERE
THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO GROWTH
TAKING PLACE AND THERE'S AN
OPPORTUNITY TO PUT THE TRANSIT
INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE, TO PUT
THE SCHOOLS IN PLACE TO BUILD
REALLY COMPLETE COMMUNITIES.

Steve says CAN I UNDERSTAND
FROM JOE, IF TOYOTA WANTS TO
INCREASE THE SIZE OF THEIR
FACILITY THERE AND IT HAS THE
POTENTIAL TO BRING THOUSANDS
MORE PEOPLE INTO THE AREA...

Jennifer says 2,000 JOBS.

Steve says 2,000 JOBS.
HOW COME THERE'S NO
HOME-BUILDING GOING ON THERE?

Joe says WE LOOK AT
OXFORD COUNTY.
WHAT ARE THE PLANNING RULES
CONSTRAINING THAT GROWTH.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT ARE THE
TYPE OF HOMES PEOPLE ARE LOOKING
FOR TO LIVE IN OXFORD?
ARE THOSE KIND OF MIDDLE CLASS
JOB-SEEKERS, ARE THEY GOING TO
BE CONTENT MOVING INTO A
SIX-STOREY RENTAL APARTMENT
BUILDING OR DO THEY WANT A
SINGLE FAMILY HOME?
GUESS WHAT.
YOU CAN'T BUILD IN OXFORD
COUNTY, YOU HAVE TO BUILD IN
WATERLOO REGION.
SUDDENLY YOU'RE DEALING WITH
THOSE ECONOMICS.
I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO
UNDERSTAND IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE
HOUSING SYSTEM AND HOW IT HAS TO
SUPPORT THE GENERAL ECONOMY,
THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD THINGS
WE CAN BE DOING TOGETHER.
THIS CONVERSATION GOES BACK TO
THE RIGHT SUPPLY IN THE RIGHT
PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME.
WE CAN'T WAIT SIX YEARS FOR THE
APPROVAL.
I ALSO WANT TO SAY THAT WE'RE
HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT
GROWTH NOT PAYING FOR GROWTH.
THAT PRINCIPLE STAYS IN PLACE.
THERE WILL BE PARKS.
THERE WILL BE SCHOOLS.
THOSE THINGS WILL BE IN PLACE.
SO TO TAKE THE ALARMIST
APPROACH, THAT'S NOT
APPROPRIATE.
IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
THERE'S A NEW SYSTEM COMING IN
PLACE HERE.
THE FOCUS NOW IS PREDICTABILITY,
CERTAINTY, ACCOUNTABILITY, AND
TRANSPARENCY.
THINGS WE SHOULD ALL AGREE WITH.
THE QUESTION NOW BECOMES: WE
LOOK AT THESE NEW RULES AND SAY,
HOW DO WE ENGAGE IN THEM, HOW DO
WE BUILD COMPLETE COMMUNITIES?
IT'S VERY EASY TO SIMPLY POINT
THE FINGER AND SAY PRIVATE
DEVELOPMENT...

Josh says MAY I FACT-CHECK ONE THING
YOU SAID, THOUGH, IF I MAY?

Steve says PLEASE.

The caption changes to "Building communities."

Josh says ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE'S
ANY ASSURANCE UNDER BILL 108
THAT IF A DEVELOPMENT EXCEEDS
THE CURRENT DENSITY AND HEIGHT
AND THERE'S A NEW POPULATION
MOVING INTO THAT BUILDING, THAT
THE LOCAL COMMUNITY WILL BE ABLE
TO BENEFIT FROM NEW PARKS, NEW
SCHOOLS, NEW RECREATION CENTRES,
NEW INFRASTRUCTURE?
MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT'S
ALL UP IN THE AIR AND THAT THAT
MONEY THAT WOULD BE BENEFITING
THE LOCAL COMMUNITY THAT IS
WELCOMING THE GROWTH MIGHT
ACTUALLY MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE AND
NOT THE INTO THE VICINITY?

Joe says I GUESS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
TO SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT.
HERE'S THE REALITY.
THE REALITY IS THIS.
NO DEVELOPER IS GOING TO WALK
INTO A COMMUNITY AND NOT PAY
THEIR FAIR SHARE OF GROWTH.

Jennifer says WAIT A
MINUTE.
THAT'S WHAT WAS HAPPENING BEFORE
WE HAD THESE REGULATIONS IN
PLACE.
I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO
ACCENTUATE THE LAST POINT YOU
MADE, WHICH IS, WE DON'T
ACTUALLY KNOW YET.
THERE'S A LOT OF VERY HIGH-LEVEL
LANGUAGE THAT DOESN'T CLEARLY
YET ARTICULATE, AND SO I THINK
WE CAN BE OPTIMISTIC THAT
THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO ENSURE
THAT MECHANISMS WILL BE PUT IN
PLACE TO DEAL WITH THE IMPACTS
OF GROWTH.
IF YOU GO BACK TO SECTION 37,
FIRST OF ALL...

Steve says SECTION 37 OF...

Jennifer says SECTION
37 OF THE PLANNING ACT IS A
SECTION THAT HAS ALLOWED IN
CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS, FOR
EXAMPLE IN MISSISSAUGA THEY
DON'T USE SECTION 37, BUT IN
CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS OF
ONTARIO, TO ALLOW THE CITY TO
CAPTURE SOME VALUE THAT CAN THEN
BE USED TO ADDRESS THE IMPACTS
OF ADDING SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF
DENSITY.
SO A LOCAL PARK IS NOW GOING TO
HAVE A LOT MORE PEOPLE USING IT.
OR ADDING... WE'VE ADDED NEW
ENTRANCES TO SUBWAY STATIONS AS
A RESULT OF NEW BUILDINGS BEING
BUILT.
WE'VE DONE THAT THROUGH SECTION
37.
WE ARE EXPANDING THE PATH
SYSTEM.
WE'VE DONE THAT IN THE DOWNTOWN
CORE USING SECTION 37...

Steve says IS THAT OFF GOING FORWARD?

Jennifer says WELL, THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
WE DON'T KNOW BECAUSE IT'S BEEN
CHANGED.
THERE WAS THIS KIND OF STRANGE
NARRATIVE THAT SUGGESTED THAT
SECTION 37 WASN'T FAIR.
SO IN SOME PARTS OF THE CITY
WHERE THERE WASN'T GROWTH,
COUNCILLORS OF COURSE DID NOT
HAVE ACCESS TO MONIES TO BE
UPGRADING THE LOCAL COMMUNITY.
BUT THAT'S FOR A SIMPLE REASON:
SECTION 37 WAS SPECIFICALLY
DESIGNED TO ADDRESS IMPACTS FROM
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
NOW, TO PULL THE LENS OUT MORE
BROADLY, DEVELOPMENT CHARGES IN
THIS CITY GET SPREAD ACROSS THE
ENTIRE CITY.
EVERY TIME A CONDO GETS BUILT IN
DOWNTOWN TORONTO OR YONGE AND
EGLINTON, A ROAD AND A PARK GETS
REPAIRED IN SCARBOROUGH.
AND THAT'S A GOOD THING.
THAT'S ACTUALLY A WAY OF
ENSURING THAT THE INFRASTRUCTURE
ACROSS THE ENTIRE CITY IS BEING
MAINTAINED AND I'VE BEEN IN
CITIES RECENTLY LIKE AUSTRALIA
WHERE THAT DOESN'T EXIST AND YOU
HAVE A VERY WEALTHY CENTRAL CORE
TO THE CITY AND THE SUBURBAN
PARKS AND NEIGHBOURHOODS ARE IN
A SIGNIFICANT STATE OF DECLINE...

Tim says I THINK WE ALL
AGREE THE CURRENT PLAN IS NOT
WORKING.
IT'S A FAILURE TO PEOPLE WHO
WANT TO GET INTO HOME OWNERSHIP,
IT'S A FAILURE TO PEOPLE WHO
WANT TO FIND A RENTAL.
WHAT'S APPEALING ABOUT BILL 108,
MORE HOMES, MORE CHOICES ACT...
WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT YONGE AND
EGLINTON.
THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.
THE PROVINCE INTERVENED.
IT HELPS OUT OXFORD COUNTY AND
NIAGARA, WITH ARE I'M FROM.
THE PROBLEM IS THE APPROVAL
PROCESS IS FAR TOO SLOW, IT IS
FOR TOO EXPENSIVE, AND IT IS TOO
ARBITRARY.
THAT MEANS INVESTMENT IN HOUSING
IS NOT TAKING PLACE.
KUDOS TO MINISTER CLARK.
I KNOW HE'S TALKING ABOUT THIS
ON THE SHOW AS WELL.
THIS WILL ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES
BY SPEEDING UP DEVELOPMENT,
CLEARING UP RED TAPE, PROVIDING
MORE HOUSING OPTIONS ACROSS...

Josh says STEVE, THAT'S JUST NOT
REALITY.
ANYONE, INCLUDING TIM, WHO WOULD
WALK DOWN MOST STREETS IN
DOWNTOWN OR MIDTOWN TORONTO,
WOULD NEVER HONESTLY SAY THAT
THERE IS NO HOUSING BEING BUILT.
LOOK AT EVERY... ALL THE CONDOS
GOING UP.
LOOK AT ALL THE BUILDINGS GOING
UP THROUGHOUT THE CITY.
WE HAVE MORE CRANES IN THE SKY
THAN ANY CITY IN NORTH
AMERICA...

Tim says JOSH DENIES WE HAVE A HOUSING
SUPPLY CRISIS...

[MIXED VOICES]

Jennifer says IT'S AN AFFORDABILITY CRISIS
WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM A SUPPLY CRISIS...

Josh says BILL 108 DOES NOT ADDRESS OUR
NEED TO BUILD AFFORDABLE
HOUSING.
IT BUILDS EXPENSIVE CONDOS AND
RENTALS.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS, GANG.
WE ARE IN MIDTOWN TORONTO AND
THE CITY HAD A REPORT CALLED THE
CITY'S MIDTOWN IN FOCUS WHICH
RECOMMENDED NEW BUILDINGS AROUND
HERE BE NO MORE THAN 8 STOREYS
HIGH...

Jennifer says NO, NO, NO.
THAT'S COMPLETELY INACCURATE.
THAT'S A COMPLETELY INACCURATE
STATEMENT WITH RESPECT...

Steve says BAYVIEW AND EGLINTON?

Jennifer says NO.
IT'S COMPLETELY INACCURATE, WHAT
YOU JUST SAID.
IN FACT, IT IS A PLAN WHICH...
PART OF WHAT WE DID FIVE YEARS
AGO IN THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT
WAS WE SHIFTED TO A PROACTIVE
APPROACH THAT WAS ABOUT
PROVIDING CERTAINTY, PUTTING A
PLANNING FRAMEWORK IN PLACE SO
DEVELOPERS WOULD HAVE A CLEAR
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE
EXPECTATION ON A SPECIFIC SITE
WAS FOR DEVELOPMENT AND ALSO THE
INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT IT...

Steve says OKAY...

Jennifer says MIDTOWN IN FOCUS HAS A
VARIETY OF DIFFERENT BUILT FOR
AREAS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT BUILT
FORM TYPES.
IN THE CENTRE IT'S VERY DENSE...
IN FACT AT YONGE AND EGLINTON,
YOU CAN GO AS HIGH AS...

Josh says AND THEY ARE.

Steve says I'M GOING BY WHAT
THE MINISTER TOLD ME IS THEY
HAVE GONE...

Jennifer says THAT'S TERRIFYING IF THE
MINISTER TOLD YOU THAT...

[MIXED VOICES]

Josh says WHAT DID THE MINISTER SAY?

Steve says FROM WHAT I
UNDERSTAND IT WAS 8 STOREYS, SAY
FOR EXAMPLE AT BAYVIEW AND
EGLINTON, WHICH IS FIVE MINUTES
EAST OF HERE.
NOW YOU CAN GO 22 TO 35 STOREYS.
YOU CAN HAVE ENHANCED
INTENSIFICATION TO ACCOMMODATE
THE ADDED DEMAND FOR THIS AREA.
WHAT DO WE THINK?

Josh says I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.
IN THE DAVISVILLE AREA WHICH IS
PART OF MIDTOWN IN FOCUS,
BUILDINGS HAVE ALREADY BEEN ABLE
TO GO UP INTO THE TWENTIES OR
SOME EVEN GOING TOWARDS THE
THIRTIES.
THE CITY IS NOT SAYING NO TO ANY
NEW DEVELOPMENT IN THAT AREA.
WHAT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IS
THAT THE NEW RULES BY THE
PROVINCE ALLOW THE HEIGHTS TO GO
UP IN EXCESS OF 40 IN AN AREA
THAT DOESN'T HAVE SUFFICIENT
INFRASTRUCTURE AND SERVICES...

Steve says THE MINISTER SAYS 35...

Josh says THE MINISTER IS SAYING A LOT
OF THINGS, BUT I THINK THAT IT'S
BETTER TO DEAL WITH ABSOLUTE
FACTS RATHER THAN THE POLITICAL
RHETORIC THAT WE ARE HEARING
FROM THIS GOVERNMENT TO JUSTIFY
THIS BILL.
WHAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT AS A
CITY IS THE QUALITY OF LIFE OF
RESIDENTS.
WE ARE NOT SAYING NO TO HEIGHT
AND WE ARE NOT SAYING NO TO
DENSITY.
BUT WE BELIEVE THAT THE BUILT
FORM SHOULD BE IN CONTEXT FOR
THE AREA.
WE ALSO BELIEVE THAT AFFORDABLE
CHILD CARE, SERVICES,
INFRASTRUCTURE, NEED TO KEEP UP
WITH THE PACE OF GROWTH AND,
IMPORTANTLY, THAT TAX-PAYING
RESIDENTS SHOULDN'T BE HAVING TO
SUBSIDIZE THAT GROWTH.
IN OTHER WORDS, DEVELOPERS NEED
TO PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE TO...

Tim says THIS FICTION MAY HAVE WORKED
BEFORE BILL 108.
DEVELOPERS WILL STAY PAY FOR
GROWTH, FOR CHILD CARE, FOR
LIBRARIES, FOR PARKS.
THE DIFFERENCE, STEVE, IS IT
HAPPENS IN A MORE PREDICTABLE
WAY.
IT WILL GO INTO A FUND TO BE
DISPERSED WHERE COMMUNITIES MAKE
THEIR PLANNING DECISIONS.
CITIZENS WILL HAVE A ROLE IN
MAKING UP WHAT THOSE PLANS ARE.
IT TAKES AWAY THE MUNICIPAL
SHAKE-DOWN THAT USED TO GIVE.
YOU'RE DEFENDING YOUR CITIZENS,
I GET IT.
WE WILL ONLY FUND YOUR PROJECT
IF YOU FUND THIS PET PROJECT OF
MINE.

Josh says AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE IS A
PET PROJECT?

Tim says WHEN A MUNICIPAL COUNCILLOR
IS SITTING ON SLUSH FUNDS TO
HELP AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN THAT
DOES NOT HELP BRING NEW HOUSING
ON BOARD...

Steve says WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.
SLUSH FUND...

Josh says THAT IS SO UNFAIR, THAT IS SO
UNFAIR TO THE RESIDENTS OF OUR
COMMUNITIES, WHEN YOU CALL PET
PROJECTS AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE,
SCHOOL SPACES, PARKS, BASIC
INFRASTRUCTURE AND SERVICES...

Jennifer says WE NEED TO GO BACK...

Tim says WE NEED TO KNOW EXACTLY...

Jennifer says WE NEED
TO GO BACK FOR A MINUTE.
FOUR YEARS AGO WE BROUGHT IN
PLACE, AS A RESULT OF VERY
LEGITIMATE CONCERNS ABOUT THE
TRANSPARENCY OF SECTION 37, WE
BROUGHT INTO PLACE A REPORT THAT
COMES OUT ON AN ANNUAL BASIS.
WE PUT A SITE UP ON THE WEBSITE
WHERE YOU CAN SEE ALL THE MONIES
THAT ARE COLLECTED FROM A
PROJECT AND HOW THEY ARE BEING
SPENT IN THE COMMUNITY.
SO TO JOSH'S POINT, THERE IS A
TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF
ACCOUNTABILITY THAT WAS CREATED
THROUGH THAT SYSTEM, AND THE
OBJECTIVE OF DOING SO WAS TO
ENSURE THAT THE PUBLIC ALSO
COULD PARTICIPATE IN A PROCESS
IN DECIDING WHAT THE PRIORITIES
WERE IN THEIR COMMUNITY.
SO SOME COMMUNITIES DECIDED THAT
THE PRIORITY MIGHT BE THE
RETENTION OF A HERITAGE BUILDING
OR THEY MIGHT DECIDE THAT THE
PRIORITY WAS IMPROVING THE
ACCESS TO THE LOCAL SUBWAY
STATION OR THEY MIGHT DECIDE
THAT IMPROVING THE FACILITIES AT
A LOCAL PARK AND PUTTING IN
PLACE A COMMUNITY GARDEN WHERE
THE COMMUNITY COULD COME
TOGETHER WOULD BE A KEY
PRIORITY.
THAT IS VERY TRANSPARENT AND I
THINK THE OPPORTUNITY MOVING
FORWARD WOULD ENSURE THAT...

[MIXED VOICES]

Tim says IRONICALLY THE BILL DOES IT
ON A PROVINCE-WIDE BASIS.
IT ENSURES THOSE PLANS WILL TAKE
PLACE, CITIZENS PARTICIPATING.
EVERY DOLLAR FROM PROJECTS
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.

Josh says I AGREE WITH JOE.
THERE'S NO ASSURANCE TO THAT.
WE KNOW THAT MIDTOWN IN FOCUS,
THAT WAS DISMISSED BY THE
PROVINCE, ACTUALLY, AS JEN SAID,
SPENT YEARS TO DETERMINE WHAT
THE PRIORITIES ARE... NOT
POLITICALLY BASED, NOT DURING AN
ELECTION, AS YOU SUGGESTED...
BUT BASIC INFRASTRUCTURE AND
SERVICES PRIORITIES THAT OUR
PLANNING STAFF WOULD RECOMMEND
BASED ON COMMUNITY CONSULTATION
AND REAL DATA TO SUPPORT THE
DEARTH OF THOSE SERVICES AND
THAT'S HOW WE'RE PRIORITIZING
SECTION 37 IN THE YONGE AND
EGLINTON CORRIDOR.
SO THIS NARRATIVE AROUND SLUSH
FUNDS AND PET PROJECTS AND
ELECTIONS... I KNOW...
EMPATHETICALLY I KNOW IT MEETS
YOUR NEEDS BECAUSE YOU'RE
SELLING THIS BILL.
WHAT I'M TELLING YOU IN REAL
LIFE, AS A RESIDENT OF MIDTOWN
AND AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF
MIDTOWN, WE REALLY DO NEED THESE
SCHOOL SPACES.
WE REALLY DO NEED...

Steve says COME IN, JOE.

Joe says LET ME RESPOND
FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE
THERE'S A LOT OF CHATTER AROUND
THE TABLE HERE.
HERE ARE THE PRACTICAL
REALITIES: PEOPLE ARE COMING HERE.
THAT'S A REALITY.
WE NEED TO PLAN FOR THIS GROWTH.
THAT'S A REALITY.
WE NEED ALL SORTS OF HOUSING
OPTIONS, NOT JUST IN TORONTO,
BUT ACROSS THE BOARD.
DEVELOPMENT NEEDS TO CONTRIBUTE
TO THE GROWTH REALITY.
BUT SOMETIMES WE ATTACH TO A
GROWTH REALITY, ISN'T, WHEN YOU
PUT IT TO THE TEST, A TRUE TEST
OF IT.
THAT'S WHERE THE NEGOTIATION
HAPPENS AROUND THE TABLE.
WHEN YOU SPEAK TO HIGH
RESTRICTION SECTION 37, THERE
WAS AN ADVANTAGE FOR THE CITY TO
UNDERZONE AN AREA AND WELCOME
REZONING APPLICATIONS, JUST SO
THE LOCAL COUNCILLOR CAN ENGAGE
IN A SECTION 37 NEGOTIATION
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

Steve says WHICH MEANS WHAT?

Joe says WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE THE
OPPORTUNITY TO SAY, IF YOU WANT
TO GO FROM 8 TO 15, YOU WILL
NEED TO HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE 3, 4,
5 MILLION DOLLARS FOR LOCAL AMENITIES...

Josh says THAT'S NOT...

Jennifer says THAT'S
NOT HOW IT WORKED.
YOU CAN FLIP IT THE OTHER WAY AS
WELL.
THE RISK OF TAKING A VERY
COMPLEX CITY, LIKE THE CITY OF
TORONTO, AND PUTTING BLANKET
ZONINGS IN PLACE CAN ALSO MEAN,
AS WE SEE TODAY, THAT YOU HAVE
SIGNIFICANT UNDERZONING.
LET'S TALK ABOUT A VERY SPECIFIC
SITE, WHICH IS THE ONE, SAM
MASERATI'S PROJECT AT YONGE AND
BLOOR.
WHAT IF WE SAID, THE ENTIRE
DOWNTOWN CORE WE'RE GOING TO
MAKE 60 STOREYS.
HAMILTON DID IT FOR A VARIETY OF
REASONS, WHICH IS PROBLEMATIC.
SOME SITES SHOULD HAVE MORE
DENSITY AND SOME LESS.

Steve says WHAT DO THEY WANT AT
YONGE AND BLOOR?

Jennifer says MORE THAN 80 STOREYS HAVE
BEEN APPROVED THERE.
WHEN THE DEVELOPER CAME IN, OUR
POSITION IN THE PLANNING
DEPARTMENT... THIS IS NOTHING TO
DO WITH SECTION 37... WAS, THIS
IS YONGE AND BLOOR.
LET'S PUT AS MUCH DENSITY AS YOU
POSSIBLY CAN FROM A MARKET
PERSPECTIVE.
LET THAT SITE BE MARKET-DRIVEN
AND LET'S ENSURE THAT, AS A
RESULT OF THAT, WE EXTRACT SOME
COMMUNITY BENEFIT, WHICH WE DID.
A NEW PARK IS BEING BUILT...

Steve says THAT MADE SENSE.
YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT, THEN.
YOU'RE OKAY WITH 80 STOREYS AT
YONGE AND BLOOR.

Jennifer says ABSOLUTELY.
THIS IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
THAT THE RISK OF A BLANKET
APPROACH IS THAT YOU ALSO WILL
HAVE NOT ENOUGH DENSITY ON SOME
SITES.
WE WOULD HAVE LOST 20 STOREYS OF
CAPACITY...

Josh says MAY I SURPRISE YOU WITH
SOMETHING...

Jennifer says THE BLANKET ZONING OF 60
WOULD HAVE BEEN PREDICTABLE BUT
WE WOULD HAVE LOST SOME
OPPORTUNITY.
THERE WAS A BENEFIT TO THE
NEGOTIATED PROCESS THAT ACTUALLY
CUTS BOTH WAYS, WHICH IS GOOD
FOR THE CITY, BECAUSE WE WANT TO
ENSURE THAT WE'RE BEING
NUANCED...

Steve says JOSH AND THEN...

Josh says IT CAN
ACTUALLY WORK IN THE BEST WAYS
WITH THE DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY AS WELL.
YONGE AND EGLINTON, WE HAVE
RESIDENTS WHO... SOME PEOPLE
HAVE SUGGESTED THEY'RE NOT IN
SUPPORT OF ANY DEVELOPMENT.
WE HAVE RESIDENTS ASSOCIATIONS
AT YONGE AND EGLINTON THAT HAVE
WRITTEN LETTERS IN SUPPORT OF
SOME OF THE BIGGEST DEVELOPMENTS
IN THE AREA.
BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO DO THAT
BECAUSE THEY ALSO RECOGNIZED
THAT THROUGH THESE NEGOTIATIONS
WITH THE CITY, THAT THERE WOULD
BE, WHETHER IT BE, AS JEN SAID
EARLIER, ANOTHER ENTRANCE TO THE
SUBWAY OR BETTER PUBLIC REALM,
GENUINE COMMUNITY BENEFITS THAT
CONTRIBUTE TO LEAVING THE PLACE
BETTER THAN THE DEVELOPER FOUND IT.
AND THEREFORE, THEY WERE
REASONABLE AND THEY ARRIVED AT A
YES RATHER THAN A NO.
IT ACTUALLY WAS A WIN-WIN FOR
EVERYBODY...

Jennifer says IT WAS
PART OF THE CONSENSUS-BUILDING
PROCESS AROUND DEVELOPMENT.

Steve says I'VE GOT FIVE
MINUTES LEFT AND I WANT TO MAKE
SURE WE TOUCH ON A COUPLE OF
OTHER THINGS.
TIM, TO YOU FIRST.
THIS IS A BIT OF AN ODD PROBLEM.
58 PERCENT OF THE GTA...
JENNIFER IS GOING TO QUIBBLE
WITH MY NUMBERS.
HANG ON.
58 PERCENT OF THE GTA HAS
DECREASED IN POPULATION BECAUSE
SOME PEOPLE HAVE TOO MUCH HOUSE
FOR THEIR NEEDS.
DID I HEAR YOU SAY THAT'S RIGHT?

Jennifer says I CAN
SPEAK TO THAT, YEAH.
IT IS RIGHT.

Steve says I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM
TIM IN A WHILE.
THE KIDS HAVE MOVED OUT.
THE PARENTS ARE STILL THERE.
AND YOU'VE GOT, LET'S SAY, FOR
EXAMPLE, TWO SENIOR CITIZEN
PARENTS LIVING IN A FOUR-BEDROOM
HOUSE WHICH MAY NOT BE THE MOST
EFFICIENT USE OF THAT SPACE.
WHAT DO WE... DO WE NEED TO
INCENTIVIZE PEOPLE TO SELL THEIR
HOUSES OR DO SOMETHING IN ORDER
TO MAKE THAT SPACE WORK BETTER?

Tim says MY PARENTS WERE
IN THAT SPOT.
THEY HAD THE FAMILY HOME.
THE KIDS HAD MOVED OUT.
THE GRAND KIDS COME BACK AND
VISIT AND SUCH.
IT IS HARD TO FIND HOUSING FOR
EMPTY NESTERS TO GO INTO.
IT WILL BUILD MORE HOUSING
CHOICE, BE CLOSE TO THE GRAND
KIDS AND FREE UP THE FAMILY
HOME.
I ALSO LIKE THE FACT THAT THIS
BILL ALLOWS FOR MORE SECONDARY
SUITES.
THAT'S A SORT OF GOOD RENTAL
CHOICE RIGHT ACROSS OUR CITIES
BY WAY OF EXAMPLE.
THE LAST THING I'LL SAY WHEN IT
COMES TO AFFORDABILITY, THE
PROVINCE HAS A GREAT
OPPORTUNITY, LIKE MAYOR
BLOOMBERG DID IN NEW YORK CITY,
TO USE GOVERNMENT LAND, WHETHER
IT BE CITY, PROVINCIAL, OR
FEDERAL, THEY CAN PARTNERSHIP TO
DEVELOP HOUSING WITH THE EXPRESS
RESTRICTION THAT IT BE USED FOR
AFFORDABILITY AND KEEP RATES
LOW.
IN FACT, THE PROJECT THAT GOOGLE
IS DOING, SIDEWALK LABS, HAS
ENORMOUS POTENTIAL TO BRING IN A
LOT OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THE
CITY OF TORONTO.

Steve says WE'RE NOT GOING THERE.
THAT'S A DIFFERENT SHOW.
CAN WE GET YOU ON THIS ISSUE OF
HOW WE INCENTIVIZE SENIOR
CITIZENS LIVING IN FOUR-BEDROOM
HOUSING, MAYBE MOVE THEM IN A
CONDO OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

Jennifer says THIS IS
AN IMPORTANT POINT.
THE CENTRE FOR ECONOMIC
PROSPERITY HAS IDENTIFIED THAT
IN THE GTA THERE ARE OVER...
SORRY, THERE ARE OVER 5 MILLION
EMPTY BEDROOMS.
SO WE HAVE THIS SITUATION WHERE
WE HAVE ENCOURAGED A TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF STAYING-IN-PLACE, PART
OF THE LAND TRANSFER TAX IS PART
OF THAT, A DISINCENTIVE TO
PEOPLE RIGHT-SIZING THEIR
HOUSING.
WE'RE IN THIS STRANGE SITUATION
WHERE WE HAVE A GENERATION
COMING UP THAT CANNOT ACCESS
HOUSING FOR THEIR FAMILIES,
CANNOT ACCESS AFFORDABLE
HOUSING, AND WE HAVE ANOTHER
GENERATION THAT IS OVERHOUSED,
THAT HAS WAY TOO MUCH HOUSING
AND, QUITE FRANKLY, NEEDS SOME
KIND OF POLICY INCENTIVE IN
ORDER TO BE SHIFTING THE WAY
THEY USE THEIR HOME, WHETHER
THAT MEANS RENTING OUT A PORTION
OF THEIR HOME, WHETHER IT MEANS
TURNING SOME OF THOSE HOMES INTO
MULTI-TENANTED, OR TRANSITIONING
INTO A HOME THAT'S THE RIGHT
SIZE.
PART OF IT IS AROUND MISSING
MIDDLE HOUSING, THAT JOSH
MENTIONED EARLIER.
ADDING DENSITY IN EXISTING
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
I KNOW MY IN-LAWS WHO RAISED
THEIR FAMILY IN ETOBICOKE IN A
BEAUTIFUL SUBURBAN HOME.
WHEN THEIR KIDS MOVED OUT AND
THEY WANTED TO DOWN-SIZE, THERE
WAS NOTHING IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD
BECAUSE ALL OF THE HOUSES WERE
VERY SIMILAR.
THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR ONE TYPE
OF FAMILY.
WE KNOW TODAY THAT 28.2 PERCENT
OF THE CANADIAN POPULATION LIVES
ALONE.
SO ADDING... ADDING GENTLE
DENSITY IN EXISTING
NEIGHBOURHOODS IS A WAY OF
ADDING RENTERS INTO EXISTING
NEIGHBOURHOODS, IT'S A WAY OF
ADDING AFFORDABLE, SMALLER UNITS
INTO EXISTING NEIGHBOURHOODS,
BUT ALSO PROVIDING THE
OPPORTUNITY FOR RESIDENTS WHO
MIGHT NOT WANT TO LEAVE THE
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT THEY'VE LIVED
IN FOR A VERY LONG TIME TO HAVE
A HOUSING CHOICE...

The caption changes to "Making room for families."

Steve says THIRTY SECONDS LEFT.

Josh says THE ISSUE IS
ALL THESE NEED TO WORK IN
CONCERT WITH EACH OTHER.
AND EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN THE
FORD GOVERNMENT DO SO FAR HAS
BEEN PULLING AWAY OUR ABILITY TO
MAKE THINGS MORE AFFORDABLE FOR
SENIORS.
I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.
THEY REMOVED ALL RENT CONTROLS
ON ALL NEW RENTAL UNITS...

Steve says THE IDEA WAS TO GET
RENTAL HOUSING BUILT.
IT WASN'T GOING TO BE BUILT
WITHOUT THAT.

Jennifer says THAT'S NOT TRUE.
WE ARE BUILDING MORE RENTAL
HOUSING THAN WE EVER HAVE...

Josh says WE ARE
BREAKING RECORDS SINCE THE 1991
EXEMPTION WAS LIFTED.
WE DON'T WANT TO JUST SUPPLY
RENTAL, WE WANT AFFORDABLE
RENTAL.
THE OTHER THING THE GOVERNMENT
NEEDS TO LOOK AT IS ABOVE THE
GUIDELINE RENTAL INCREASES...
THESE RENT INCREASES ALONG WITH
THE LACK OF AFFORDABILITY MEANS
THAT MORE SENIORS ARE NOT ABLE
TO LIVE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES
THEY LIVED IN FOR PERHAPS A
GENERATION, AND THAT IMPACTS
ISOLATION, LONELINESS...

The caption changes to "Producer: Cara Stern, @carastern."

Steve says FORGIVE ME.
I HAVE TO JUMP IN BECAUSE
THEY'RE GIVING ME THE HOOK.
IF WE GO ON LONGER, JENNIFER
WILL ATTACK ME FOR A THIRD TIME,
AND WE LIKE IT ANYWAY AND WE'LL
INVITE YOU BACK OF COURSE.
JOSH MATLOW AND TIM HUDAK, GOOD
OF YOU TO JOIN US ON THIS SIDE
OF THE TABLE, JENNIFER KEESMAAT
AND JOE VACCARO ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE TABLE.
WE HAVE COMPLETE CONSENSUS ON
EVERYTHING TONIGHT...

Joe says ABSOLUTELY. GO RAPTORS GO.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says THEY WENT ALREADY.
IT WAS GREAT.
THANKS, EVERYBODY.

Watch: The Right Way to Build More Homes